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delben91
02-20-2002, 10:02 AM
This may have been posted already, but it's an interesting piece on the clubhouse attitude towards Royce.
choice (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/201sd3.htm)

cheeses_h_rice
02-20-2002, 10:10 AM
Wow, hadn't heard this yet...

After David Wells' "No guts, no glory" comments about Frank Thomas in early May while the Sox were in Texas, Clayton did little to endear himself to teammates. Wells' radio interview was replayed on ESPN's SportsCenter on the Sox's clubhouse television while the players were dressing, and Clayton celebrated Wells' comments with his own personal cheer.

It got back to Thomas.

"You can say what you want about Frank, but he's been here for years through all of the wars," a teammate said. "This guy barely knows anyone, and he's celebrating a teammate ripping another teammate. That's messed up."


Ah, the Choicemeister...

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 10:50 AM
Man....What a jagoff!


:hitless
"I need no one. I am the premire SS."


:manos
"Keep talking ********. You can talk to yourself on the bench this year."

CubKilla
02-20-2002, 11:15 AM
Always heard about "Choice" being a clubhouse cancer. Never really had the facts on paper until now..... that is, of course, as long as this article is true. What's even funnier is that, at the time Thomas was out, "Choice" was probably batting .040, if lucky.

:hitless

"F" YOU CUBSF'NBLOW!

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 11:31 AM
I sure hope that article never made it to the LA times. Go get em Dodgers! Take gas can too.

RichH55
02-20-2002, 12:05 PM
Hey Cornball...where are your fantasy numbers on this?

bjmarte
02-20-2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Hey Cornball...where are your fantasy numbers on this?
ROFL! Rich pulling off the gloves, I like it :D:

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-20-2002, 01:30 PM
:manos



My mustache has more personality!







:KW


I like this guy!
:gulp:
He sounds nice and fuzzy doesn't he?

Foulke You
02-20-2002, 03:42 PM
Wow. Now I don't feel bad at all about the boos, mock standing ovations, and bronx cheers that Royce was getting last year at Comiskey. KW trades classy Herb Perry to make room for this guy? Crede at 3B and Valentin at SS now please!



:hitless
What would you guys do without me?

FarWestChicago
02-20-2002, 03:51 PM
"If Royce wants to isolate himself, that's fine," a teammate said. "Just don't make it miserable for everyone else."

:hitless

Who cares what that loser said? I AM The Choice.

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-20-2002, 04:03 PM
:hitless

:Men long to be like me, women long to be with me. This year my goal is to bat higher than .023 in the first three months. Maybe .035 by mid June!



:gun

Want some hitting pointers? I'll help you!



:gulp:

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-20-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by SoxRulecubsdrool
:hitless

:Men long to be like me, women long to be with me. This year my goal is to bat higher than .023 in the first three months. Maybe .035 by mid June!



:gun

Want some hitting pointers? I'll help you!



:gulp: :embree

What? Will you be hitting off of me everyday!

ScottyTheSoxFan
02-20-2002, 04:08 PM
:KW
"A bold, confident player, just what this team needs more of. Do you think that Rocker individual is available?"

duke of dorwood
02-20-2002, 04:18 PM
I can't believe this stuff. He hasn't talked to him YET?

:jerry

Hey, I'm up now

foulkesfan11
02-20-2002, 04:44 PM
Royce needs to get along with everyone else. I met him last year while waiting to get an autograph from Jeff Liefer on his birthday. Royce was out there trying to be friendly with the fans. Nobody wanted his autograph. I actually felt bad for the guy. He was nicer than alot of Sox players I've met.

:kelly

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by foulkesfan11
Royce needs to get along with everyone else. I met him last year while waiting to get an autograph from Jeff Liefer on his birthday. Royce was out there trying to be friendly with the fans. Nobody wanted his autograph. I actually felt bad for the guy. He was nicer than alot of Sox players I've met.

Really? When was this? Who else was there besides Royce and Liefer? Were they signing autographs along the foul lines, or inside the autograph booth on the concourse? Was it someplace besides the ballpark? I think the context is important to the story.

Today's article aburt Royce is pretty damning. If you have a story that doesn't fit Cowley's article, now is the time to come forward.

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 05:46 PM
George can back me up here. Sullivan called him an "a-hole" when he stopped by the WSI booth.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
George can back me up here. Sullivan called him an "a-hole" when he stopped by the WSI booth.

That was off the record--not for publication.

Scott was there, too. So was Dan Helpingstine.

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
That was off the record--not for publication.


Oops....

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Oops....

That's okay. Your secret is safe with me.

:)

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
George can back me up here. Sullivan called him an "a-hole" when he stopped by the WSI booth.


And you let him get away with that?

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
And you let him get away with that?

He called Royce an "a-hole" not George.

I'm sure he called George something after he went down in arm wrestling! :smile:

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
That's okay. Your secret is safe with me.


Call Daver's lawyers.

I'm sure the Knue-man is lurking.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Call Daver's lawyers.

I'm sure the Knue-man is lurking.

Actually, Sully is lurking. He wrote me just yesterday. Said he's enjoying the site. I wonder what he thinks about his picture on the front page?

:gulp:

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Actually, Sully is lurking. He wrote me just yesterday. Said he's enjoying the site. I wonder what he thinks about his picture on the front page?
:gulp:

Interesting.

I wonder if the Gas Can is lurking?

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


He called Royce an "a-hole" not George.

I'm sure he called George something after he went down in arm wrestling! :smile:

:b&b
"You dumbass RPS.......Learn to read. hu huh.

czalgosz
02-20-2002, 06:11 PM
Wow, after a year of hearing dark rumours about Clayton's being a cancer while seeing no proof of it, here it is, kind of out of the blue. I see now why he's disliked - he's got Barry Bonds' attitude, without Bonds' talent. I'm finding it harder and harder to defend the guy.

I still think he can be somewhat valuable if used correctly. I'm withholding judgement for now.

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Wow, after a year of hearing dark rumours about Clayton's being a cancer while seeing no proof of it, here it is, kind of out of the blue. I see now why he's disliked - he's got Barry Bonds' attitude, without Bonds' talent. I'm finding it harder and harder to defend the guy.

I still think he can be somewhat valuable if used correctly. I'm withholding judgement for now.

He's be valuable if they can trade him for a player to be born later or just cut him and eat the salary.

Daver
02-20-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I still think he can be somewhat valuable if used correctly.


Grizzly bear bait?

czalgosz
02-20-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


He's be valuable if they can trade him for a player to be born later or just cut him and eat the salary.

No, I still don't believe in Joe Crede. I watched way to many "unstoppable prospects" at third to get carried away with this guy. Chris Snopek and Greg Norton have permanently soured me on Sox 3b prospects.

And, even if Crede proves me wrong and starts producing, Clayton can still add something coming off the bench as a defensive replacement, pinch-running late in games, and starting against lefties (all the talk in the world won't change the fact that lefties eat Valentin alive). To simply dump him just because you don't like his attitude doesn't solve the problem.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


No, I still don't believe in Joe Crede. I watched way to many "unstoppable prospects" at third to get carried away with this guy. Chris Snopek and Greg Norton have permanently soured me on Sox 3b prospects.

And, even if Crede proves me wrong and starts producing, Clayton can still add something coming off the bench as a defensive replacement, pinch-running late in games, and starting against lefties (all the talk in the world won't change the fact that lefties eat Valentin alive). To simply dump him just because you don't like his attitude doesn't solve the problem.

Yeah, that makes sense. Snopek and Norton sucked, so Crede doesn't deserve a shot. Genius.

And if you think lefties "eat Valentin alive," precisely what rhetorical nonsense would you use to describe what lefties and righties do to Royce Clayton?

We can't afford a front line pitcher's salary, but you're willing to blow $4.5 million on a bench warmer who can only play one position?

This is getting stupid.

bjmarte
02-20-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Yeah, that makes sense. Snopek and Norton sucked, so Crede doesn't deserve a shot. Genius.

And if you think lefties "eat Valentin alive," precisely what rhetorical nonsense would you use to describe what lefties and righties do to Royce Clayton?

We can't afford a front line pitcher's salary, but you're willing to blow $4.5 million on a bench warmer who can only play one position?

This is getting stupid.

Wrong tense.

delben91
02-20-2002, 10:47 PM
Holy crap, I actually started a thread that brought forth something resembling discussion/debate from the board. I can die happy now. :smile:

Daver
02-20-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by delben91
I can die happy now. :smile:

I wouldn't suggest doing it right away though.:redneck

Pete_SSAC
02-20-2002, 10:58 PM
Hey, the only debate I started was over daver and eating deer.

- Pete

Huisj
02-20-2002, 11:53 PM
Did Snopek or Norton ever win any MVPs in the minors? Or come close to winning any triple crowns? I didn't pay attention a whole lot at that time to minor league performance, but I still would think I would've heard something about them being super minor league stars. I think Crede definitely deserves a shot; he has earned every right to have a shot in the bigs by his performance in the minors.

ma-gaga
02-20-2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Pete_SSAC
Hey, the only debate I started was over daver and eating deer.

- Pete

LOL. My favorite debate I ever had why I was calling Daver "extreme".

bjmarte
02-20-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga


LOL. My favorite debate I ever had why I was calling Daver "extreme".

Do you know where it is, can you post a link?

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-21-2002, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by daver



Grizzly bear bait?


:sopranos

How about fish food?

dougs78
02-21-2002, 08:30 AM
originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
And if you think lefties "eat Valentin alive," precisely what rhetorical nonsense would you use to describe what lefties and righties do to Royce Clayton?

Actually, if you check the stats out, Royce actually lead the team batting .333 against lefties while Jose checked in right below Josh Paul at .203 vs southpaws. Amazingly Royce was a remarkably strong hitter against lefties last year....even his OBP was .409 and his OPS was .938.

Also, while I know we can argue about which stat between OPS and BA is more important, but the fact does remain that Royce had a higher BA than Jose last year.

After looking at some of these splits, its too bad Royce couldn't work as a platoon with Jose and Crede. So that against lefties it would be Royce and Crede, while against righties we could play Jose and Joe 70% of the time and Royce and Jose the other 30%.

Huisj
02-21-2002, 09:27 AM
But that fun platoon situation isn't going to happen apparently this year like the lineup shuffling we've seen in the past. Manual says they need a set lineup this year, and he said he already named it. It's the same one everyone's been suspecting all along:

Lofton
Durham
Thomas
Ordonez
Konerko
Valentin
Lee
Clayton
Alomar

Too bad, unless Crede reaches base in every at bat in spring training and hit's 39 homers in that time too, I think he's screwed. And even if he did do that, he might still be anyway. I feel bad for him right now. :(:

ode to veeck
02-21-2002, 09:49 AM
Also, while I know we can argue about which stat between OPS and BA is more important, but the fact does remain that Royce had a higher BA than Jose last year

don't even start this line of thought,
don't even go down this path,
don't even mention this stat,
don't do it
don't do it
this has no bearing to the specific discussion here (too many reasons to re-mention)

on the other side of the plate discussion, even though Jose's BA on the weak side was low, I seem to remember a good number of clutch hits and HRs from that side--though I don't have numbers on that

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Actually, if you check the stats out, Royce actually lead the team batting .333 against lefties while Jose checked in right below Josh Paul at .203 vs southpaws. Amazingly Royce was a remarkably strong hitter against lefties last year....even his OBP was .409 and his OPS was .938.

Also, while I know we can argue about which stat between OPS and BA is more important, but the fact does remain that Royce had a higher BA than Jose last year.

After looking at some of these splits, its too bad Royce couldn't work as a platoon with Jose and Crede. So that against lefties it would be Royce and Crede, while against righties we could play Jose and Joe 70% of the time and Royce and Jose the other 30%.


If Royce is such a stud with the bat Doug, why wasn't even Manuel kooky enough to ever bat the guy who "led the team against lefties" higher than #8?

And if Royce is such an attractive solution in a platoon situation with Valentin and Crede, why has Manuel already stated he needs an everyday line up?

Could the answer to both these questions be that Manuel's decision making revolves around how to get Royce Clayton as much playing time as possible? The decisions regarding the whole left-side of our infield are being dictated by a #8 hitter, isn't that right?

Let's get real here. This is a classic example of a manager creating problems where none existed before. That's why our guy will never be confused with Joe Torre.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Yeah, that makes sense. Snopek and Norton sucked, so Crede doesn't deserve a shot. Genius.


I've never seen a White Sox rookie given a starter's job carte blanche without any competition and seen it work.


And if you think lefties "eat Valentin alive," precisely what rhetorical nonsense would you use to describe what lefties and righties do to Royce Clayton?


Royce Clayton is a mediocre hitter all around. Jose Valentin is a great hitter against righties, and almost useless against lefties. That's all I'm saying.


We can't afford a front line pitcher's salary, but you're willing to blow $4.5 million on a bench warmer who can only play one position?
This is getting stupid.

The money is spent - barring going back in time to last November and undoing the trade (a trade which I never liked in the first place), we can do nothing about the money. I was responding to the idea that the Sox should simply eat his salary. If, by getting rid of Clayton, that means they wouldn't have to pay him, I'd be all for it, but they are going to have to pay him. I'm not campaigning for a Clayton all-star appearance, or re-signing him after this season, or even that the Sox should have traded for him in the first place. But his second-half alone, combined with the fact that it would cost the Sox 4.5 million to dump him, warrants Clayton a second look. That's all I'm saying.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by delben91
Holy crap, I actually started a thread that brought forth something resembling discussion/debate from the board. I can die happy now. :smile:

saying anything about Royce Clayton is guaranteed to get you discussion.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



If Royce is such a stud with the bat Doug, why wasn't even Manuel kooky enough to ever bat the guy who "led the team against lefties" higher than #8?


Come on, George, you know as well as anyone that Manuel doesn't consult statistics when filling out his lineup card.

Paulwny
02-21-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


saying anything about Royce Clayton is guaranteed to get you discussion.

I can't imagine how many posts there have been over the last year concerning this subject.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Let's get real here. This is a classic example of a manager creating problems where none existed before. That's why our guy will never be confused with Joe Torre.

Actually, you can argue that Joe Torre aligned his team so that Tino Martinez and Paul O'Neill could play every day, even though towards the end neither of them deserved it.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I can't imagine how many posts there have been over the last year concerning this subject.

I can't wait for the season to begin, so that we have something else to talk about.

Paulwny
02-21-2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I can't wait for the season to begin, so that we have something else to talk about.

It might depend on how well Royce is hitting when the season starts or, all hell will break loose again.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


It might depend on how well Royce is hitting when the season starts or, all hell will break loose again.

Well, if he hits poorly again at the start of this season, he'll have trouble finding any support. I know he'll lose what little I have.

FarmerAndy
02-21-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, if he hits poorly again at the start of this season, he'll have trouble finding any support. I know he'll lose what little I have.

Same here. I've said numerous times that if he starts out like he did last year, I will withdraw my support for The Choice. For right now though, he IS going to be the starting shortstop. So whether or not you like him, we should all have our fingers crossed that he hits like he did during the second half of last season.

Dadawg_77
02-21-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck


don't even start this line of thought,
don't even go down this path,
don't even mention this stat,
don't do it
don't do it
this has no bearing to the specific discussion here (too many reasons to re-mention)

on the other side of the plate discussion, even though Jose's BA on the weak side was low, I seem to remember a good number of clutch hits and HRs from that side--though I don't have numbers on that

Why? It is simple do regression analysis on the number and you will find a higher correlation between OPS and the number of runs a team scores then Batting Avg. and the number of runs a team scores. It is that simple.

duke of dorwood
02-21-2002, 11:51 AM
:hitless

I pity the fool that bats in front of me


And right now that may be a pretty good hitter getting nothing to hit.

Iwritecode
02-21-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
:hitless

I pity the fool that bats in front of me


And right now that may be a pretty good hitter getting nothing to hit.

:sandy

Yea, thanks a lot...

dougs78
02-21-2002, 12:18 PM
originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If Royce is such a stud with the bat Doug, why wasn't even Manuel kooky enough to ever bat the guy who "led the team against lefties" higher than #8?

I'm not sure what you are asking me here, all I stated was that Royce did in fact bat very well against lefties last year. There is no way I can possibly get into Jerry Manuel's head to answer your question on his lineup decisions.

And if Royce is such an attractive solution in a platoon situation with Valentin and Crede, why has Manuel already stated he needs an everyday line up?

The answer to this question is much more simple. I am merely a fan of the Chicago White Sox. That in no way qualifies me to make authoratative decisions on what a MLB manager should do. All I can do is sit back and look at what I see and try to make sense of it logically. Obviously in this case Manuel see's it differently than I do, but I certainly trust his judgement over my own when it comes to making out a lineup.

However, one thing I am confused about is that in the last two examples you have taken two thoughts of mine and refuted them by using what Jerry Manuel actually did last year or said he will do this year. As I said, I'm willing to admit that he knows much more than I do. However, in using that line of logic you basically grant him infallibility in making decisions so that they all then become correct and anyone who would question them becomes wrong. And knowing your past thoughts on this issue, I'm sure this is not at all how you feel.

Could the answer to both these questions be that Manuel's decision making revolves around how to get Royce Clayton as much playing time as possible? The decisions regarding the whole left-side of our infield are being dictated by a #8 hitter, isn't that right?

Finally, while I do enjoy psychology and am pursuing my Ph.D. in clinical....I dont' think there is any way I can possibly conjecture as to how Jerry Manuel's decision making process works.

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, if he hits poorly again at the start of this season, he'll have trouble finding any support. I know he'll lose what little I have. He'll always have Cornball and a few others. :smile:

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Finally, while I do enjoy psychology and am pursuing my Ph.D. in clinical....I dont' think there is any way I can possibly conjecture as to how Jerry Manuel's decision making process works. :cleo

I tink I may have a better chance dan you, dougs.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
He'll always have Cornball and a few others. :smile:

This is probably the biggest non-argument ever. Basically we have three camps -

First, we have the majority, headed by George and Daver, who want Clayton gone by any means necessary, preferably in the most painful and humiliating way possible. This group will accept preschoolers at short and third rather than see Clayton play one more inning.

Second, we have the minority, guys like me and dougs, who are not totally pleased with Clayton's performance, but are willing to give him one more shot out there, given his performance during the latter part of 2001 and Crede's lack of credentials at the big-league level.

Third, we have an extreme minority - guys who don't especially like Jose Valentin. This group has appeared recently. They don't especially like Clayton either, but are not happy with Valentin for whatever reason, and see Clayton as an upgrade.

I don't know anyone who feels that Clayton is an especially good player, who would defend him on his own merits.

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I don't know anyone who feels that Clayton is an especially good player, who would defend him on his own merits. Cornball. :smile:

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Cornball. :smile:

Well, that's one, I guess. I think that bc2k is one of those who don't like Valentin.

RedPinStripes
02-21-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, that's one, I guess. I think that bc2k is one of those who don't like Valentin. Imagine that

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2002, 01:17 PM
I would be careful about how you characterize the positions of other people on this board, Cz. I've written as much as anyone on this subject, and have always offered cogent support for my position. The written assertions you have made about my position do not reflect well on your credibility or reading comprehension skills.

I would never be so bold as to overstate and color others' arguments in the baseless manner you have here, lest I be accused of running roughshod over others' viewpoints on the board. Apparently you feel free of such limitations. That's a poor reflection on you as well.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I would be careful about how you characterize the positions of other people on this board, Cz. I've written as much as anyone on this subject, and have always offered cogent support for my position. The written assertions you have made about my position do not reflect well on your credibility or reading comprehension skills.

I would never be so bold as to overstate and color others' arguments in the baseless manner you have here, lest I be accused of running roughshod over others' viewpoints on the board. Apparently you feel free of such limitations. That's a poor reflection on you as well.

Well, I was mainly speaking of Daver, who has spoken blatantly of using Clayton as "grizzly bait" and "target practice". And he wouldn't deny saying that. And while I am guilty of overstating your position on the matter, I was doing it, I thought, in a playful and obvious manner.

I always enjoy discussions with you, and I like to think that I back up my arguments as well as you do. I have taken some attacks on my intelligence from you in the spirit of good debate and honest fun, which is how I approach this board. I am honestly sorry if I offend.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, I was mainly speaking of Daver, who has spoken blatantly of using Clayton as "grizzly bait" and "target practice". And he wouldn't deny saying that. And while I am guilty of overstating your position on the matter, I was doing it, I thought, in a playful and obvious manner.

I always enjoy discussions with you, and I like to think that I back up my arguments as well as you do. I have taken some attacks on my intelligence from you in the spirit of good debate and honest fun, which is how I approach this board. I am honestly sorry if I offend.

My viewpoint on Clayton is based on several considered positions, each of which I have (repeatedly) stated and supported both with facts and rhetorical argument. I've never suggested preschoolers would be preferrable to him, and I'm not aware Daver has either.

Persuading others through humor is a valid and persuasive tactic. I enjoy turning others' arguments against them by pointing out the fallacy in something they wrote in a humorous way. However, what you've done is create a misrepresention of others' positions from whole cloth. There was never a suggestion children should play shortstop rather than Royce--or anything approaching that. Yet that's precisely what you wrote. This sort of smear might be okay for a high school debate team, but it won't wash here.

There is a big difference, one I'm sure you can appreciate.

voodoochile
02-21-2002, 02:13 PM
As long as that preschooler can take a walk, I am all for signing her and dumping Royce...

:)

Seriously though. I think I fall into a seperate category not mentioned above...

Under the present circumstances (the Sox about a year away from contending for the pennant and beyond, IMO) the Sox should play Crede because it bodes well for future teams.

However, if the Sox acquire one more legitimate pitcher, they would be pennant contenders this year, IMO. That would warrant playing as many veterans this year as possible and I would agree that Royce should get that crack based on his second half last year.

Of course the article at the top of this thread make me think twice about my second opinion... If Royce is as bad as he is made to sound, he should just be gone, period. Besides, we wouldn't HAVE to use the preschooler, Crede is still available...

Though you figure the preschooler is all of 2 feet tall, and it worked well the first time the Sox tried it...

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


My viewpoint on Clayton is based on several considered positions, each of which I have (repeatedly) stated and supported both with facts and rhetorical argument. I've never suggested preschoolers would be preferrable to him, and I'm not aware Daver has either.

Persuading others through humor is a valid and persuasive tactic. I enjoy turning others' arguments against them by pointing out the fallacy in something they wrote in a humorous way. However, what you've done is create a misrepresention of others' positions from whole cloth. There was never a suggestion children should play shortstop rather than Royce--or anything approaching that. Yet that's precisely what you wrote. This sort of smear might be okay for a high school debate team, but it won't wash here.

There is a big difference, one I'm sure you can appreciate.

I apologize. It was not, nor has it ever been, my intention to offend anyone or to misrepresent anyone's position on this board. I assumed that the statement was so outlandish that noone would believe that anyone honestly supported that idea.

Damn you Royce Clayton, you're tearing us apart!!!!!

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Damn you Royce Clayton, you're tearing us apart!!!!! :buddylee

That's what I do best. I sat in the dugout by myself while the rest of the fools on the Sox were out on the field during the post-Sept. 11 tribute. I am not a Clubhouse Cancer. That's an insult. I'm Ebola!!

RichH55
02-21-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz




Damn you Royce Clayton, you're tearing us apart!!!!!

LOL.....whose line is it? All Roads.....

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


I sat in the dugout by myself while the rest of the fools on the Sox were out on the field during the post-Sept. 11 tribute.

Did he really? I totally missed that. I wasn't paying attention for a while around then. Jeez, does he want to be hated? What's his deal?

RichH55
02-21-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Did he really? I totally missed that. I wasn't paying attention for a while around then. Jeez, does he want to be hated? What's his deal?


i hadn't heard it either.....but sadly that sounds like Royce......Royce the anti-Kirby Puckett

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Did he really? I totally missed that. I wasn't paying attention for a while around then. Jeez, does he want to be hated? What's his deal? One of our members and his daughter were at the game. She pointed it out to her father. He reported it here. Of course, the response from a couple of the Friends Of Buddy was, "You're a liar". They weren't there, they didn't see it, but they were calling this gentelman and his daughter "liars".

What's his deal? He is a jerk. There are many more appropriate terms, but this isn't an X rated board.

delben91
02-21-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I sat in the dugout by myself while the rest of the fools on the Sox were out on the field during the post-Sept. 11 tribute.

Assuming of course that Cowley even knew about the occurance. Man, if that's the case, Cowley did Royce a favor leaving that part out of his article. Can you imagine the backlash for that sort of deal?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I apologize. It was not, nor has it ever been, my intention to offend anyone or to misrepresent anyone's position on this board. I assumed that the statement was so outlandish that noone would believe that anyone honestly supported that idea.

Damn you Royce Clayton, you're tearing us apart!!!!!

No problems. Debating Choice and Manos has become the unofficial pastime around here. I'll be glad to see the team winning in April, regardless of who is playing third base or shortstop. With the exception of a few crossdressers who post in here, I'm sure all of WSI's Sox Fans* would agree with both of us on that.

*Crossdressers does not include those who explicitly aren't Sox Fans, like Vic and ma-gaga, who add their own useful insights to the discussion around here.

:)

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Did he really? I totally missed that.I found the thread.

There's no Buddy in team. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3549&highlight=clayton+and+daughter)

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


No problems. Debating Choice and Manos has become the unofficial pastime around here. I'll be glad to see the team winning in April, regardless of who is playing third base or shortstop. With the exception of a few crossdressers who post in here, I'm sure all of WSI's Sox Fans* would agree with both of us on that.

*Crossdressers does not include those who explicitly aren't Sox Fans, like Vic and ma-gaga, who add their own useful insights to the discussion around here.

:)

I couldn't agree more. I'll take anybody on the field as long as the Sox are winning.

I just want real baseball to start. This has been a long, cold offseason.

Daver
02-21-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I couldn't agree more. I'll take anybody on the field as long as the Sox are winning.

I just want real baseball to start. This has been a long, cold offseason.

This has been the shortest offseason in baseball history,99 days,it just seems so damned long.I blame it on Bud.

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by daver


This has been the shortest offseason in baseball history,99 days,it just seems so damned long.I blame it on Bud.

There it is...

although it's in the mid-70s and sunny here, I've been in and out of the house all day, enjoying the weather.

RichH55
02-23-2002, 02:45 AM
Hey Cornball why don't you respond to this thread? I know it doesn't mention fantasy stats, but just because someone acts like Ty Cobb doesn't mean we put them in the Hall Of Fame....the key here is to PLAY like Cobb..thanks for your time

cornball
02-23-2002, 08:26 AM
I am glad so many of you are speaking for me on this subject... Unlike Rich, who needs to alter his thoughts to support Jose, I have been consistent. You can look it up.

Personally, at this point in time with Jose, Clayton and Crede on the team for the second year in a row...will cause tension..

I have nothing against Valentin, and I am not a big fan of Clayton. From the beggining I have asked, whats the big deal with Valentin?

and the next thing you know he is in the top 5 in ther league at shortstop or thirdbase or wherever you can play him by his supporters because he has good range and OPS. When you ask his supporters to view all the stats in totality, they get upset.

Is Clayton a problem in the clubhouse...maybe, I am not in there. There is usually a few players like this in each clubhouse.

Clayton plays shortstop and does it fairly well. All I would like is to have the controversy to end.

As long as Clayton is on the team, he will be the shortstop, they pay him too much and he plays the best defense.

And Rich, why would you bring up Ty Cobb, he played so long ago...and it is such a "different game" now, as you say. and dont thank me for your time..... your thoughts are a waste of my time.