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caulfield12
08-06-2006, 04:15 PM
6-6 in the bottom of the 8th versus the Red Sox

Dioner Navarro just hit a bomb down the RF line to tie the game up.

Manny hit a lazy "can of corn" to CF in the top of the inning and neither OF called it and it dropped in...but he was loafing/walking towards 1B and didn't even try for 2nd, so the score stayed 6-4. Remy was laying into him a little.

buehrle4cy05
08-06-2006, 04:18 PM
The crying coming from Bristol, CT could be heard for miles...

chisoxmike
08-06-2006, 04:19 PM
Manny is an ass. If he was on any other team besides the Red Sox, he'd be benched for **** like that.


**** Manny and his bull**** that ESPN and Red Sox fans love so much.

Mr. White Sox
08-06-2006, 04:24 PM
Manny is an ass. If he was on any other team besides the Red Sox, he'd be benched for **** like that.


**** Manny and his bull**** that ESPN and Red Sox fans love so much.

http://www.brownalumnimagazine.com/photos/MJ00sportsberman.jpg
"That's just Man-ram being Man-ram! BACK BACK BACK BACK BACK BACK BACK!!!!"

**** that!

DumpJerry
08-06-2006, 04:25 PM
Manny is an ass. If he was on any other team besides the Red Sox, he'd be benched for **** like that.


**** Manny and his bull**** that ESPN and Red Sox fans love so much.
:ozzie
You saw what I did to Juan last week? Imagine what I would do with a bona fide immature slacker like Manny.................

JUribe1989
08-06-2006, 04:25 PM
Honestly, Dioner Navarro is the man. The Devil Rays are a fun team to watch, even with how bad they are at times. I really like this lineup they put out today. I think Maddon is a great manager for that team, and I like how he didn't put up with Elijah Duke's ****.

1-2-3 9th for Brian Meadows. Let's go Rays in the bottom half!

JUribe1989
08-06-2006, 04:31 PM
Leadoff single Russ Branyan!

Great bunt Ben Zobrist!

Pop up Damon Hollins......

Let's go CC!

JUribe1989
08-06-2006, 04:33 PM
Let's go Cantu!

illini81887
08-06-2006, 04:54 PM
greg ****ing norton yessssssssssssssssssssssss drays win!!!

caulfield12
08-06-2006, 04:55 PM
Naaaaahton, you're the greatest!!! In the words of Whimperoo, that's a good.

Obscure stat of the day....Russell Branyan, 11 homers, 10 singles

caulfield12
08-06-2006, 05:00 PM
D****!!!

Twins taking it to the Royals again, 9-5 in the 8th.

Could have three teams bunched within 1/2 game.

Kub_Killer_15
08-06-2006, 05:00 PM
That was a great game from the Devil Rays! Red Sox are slipping BIG TIME!!:D:

JB98
08-06-2006, 05:11 PM
I really, really enjoyed knocking Boston out of the playoffs last year. I hate ESPN, and I ****ing hate Red Sox Nation with every ounce of my being. It would be awesome to beat them out for the wild card (if we can't catch Detroit) just to hear the hacks at ESPN weep. The playoffs just aren't worth watching without a New York-Boston matchup.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-07-2006, 02:31 AM
Out of all teams, I hope the Blow Sauks don't make the playoffs. I'd rather have the Yankees win the east, realistically. Of course we're all pulling for Toronto, but that aint gunna happen. It's really a shame Texas doesn't have pitching, or else they'd own the West. I'm sick of this Oakland/Anaheim crap I have to listen to all the time. Ideal Playoffs:

Central: White Sox (Obviously)
East: Toronto
West: Texas
Wild Card: Baltimore

^^ How sweet would that be? No Yankees or Red Sox and Baltimore wins the Wild Card.

Paulwny
08-07-2006, 10:36 AM
Papelbon is now being seen by teams for the 2nd, 3rd and possibly 4th time. The more you see a pitcher, especially a "newbie" , sometimes he becomes more hittable.

Fenway
08-07-2006, 10:43 AM
Papelbon is now being seen by teams for the 2nd, 3rd and possibly 4th time. The more you see a pitcher, especially a "newbie" , sometimes he becomes more hittable.

Jerry Remy said the same thing yesterday....

Mr. White Sox
08-09-2006, 11:57 PM
Papelbon update:

Leadoff TRIPLE for Esteban German!

Go Royals!

Plus the fix is in, the umps help out the Pap.

slobes
08-10-2006, 12:00 AM
Papelbon is now being seen by teams for the 2nd, 3rd and possibly 4th time. The more you see a pitcher, especially a "newbie" , sometimes he becomes more hittable.

See Takatsu, Shingo.

SpartanSoxFan
08-10-2006, 12:00 AM
0 Out, Runner on third, 4-3 Red Sawx...

Good stuff...

salty99
08-10-2006, 12:04 AM
YES! Royals tie it up!

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 12:04 AM
Tie ballgame, 2 outs.

I wouldn't compare Papelbon to Takatsu, he has filthy stuff. Sometimes his command is shaky though.

Mr. White Sox
08-10-2006, 12:04 AM
Papelsmear blows ANOTHER save!

GO ROYALS!

whitesoxfan
08-10-2006, 12:04 AM
DeJesus with a sac fly ties the game at 4.

Notch up another blown save for Papelbon :smile:

JB98
08-10-2006, 12:05 AM
Paps is special.

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 12:05 AM
Wow, Grudzielanek almost hit a walk-off.

Runner on 2nd and 2 outs.

doctorlecter
08-10-2006, 12:05 AM
Papelbon just blew the save! 4-4!

salty99
08-10-2006, 12:06 AM
Mike Sweeney with a chance to win it.

salty99
08-10-2006, 12:06 AM
Yes He Did It!

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 12:06 AM
Talk about suicidal fanbases.

Mike Sweeney just ripped a single to LF to give them the win. Manny couldn't even field it cleanly and get off a throw.

doctorlecter
08-10-2006, 12:07 AM
Sweeney RBI single, KC wins!!!!

dcb56
08-10-2006, 12:07 AM
Glad to see Sweeny kill the right colored Sox for a change!:bandance:

cleanwsox
08-10-2006, 12:07 AM
Thank you KC!

:bandance:

JB98
08-10-2006, 12:08 AM
Good to see Sweeney killing someone other than the Sox.

4-game losing streak for Boston! Two against TB and two against the Royals. Time for panic in the streets in Beantown!!!

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 12:08 AM
Have you ever seen a team so up and down in a 10 day span?

Last week, Ortiz and friends had three huge come-from-behind victories.

Now they've somehow managed to lose 4 of their last 5.

whitesoxfan
08-10-2006, 12:09 AM
Now they've somehow managed to lose 4 of their last 5.

To the D-Rays and Royals, no less.

Green
08-10-2006, 12:10 AM
YES! :gulp:

billyvsox
08-10-2006, 12:10 AM
Minnesota leads the WC now. Next they have 4 at home vs Toronto. Guess who the only Blue Jay starter they won't see.

Halladay.

Man, they get ALL the breaks.

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 12:10 AM
Dayton Moore made a very good pickup with Gathright. That guy gives them an added element of speed and excitement...like Pods for us last year.

Sweeney is one of the best pure hitters in the game, he just can't stay healthy.

slobes
08-10-2006, 12:11 AM
Whew. There's the silver lining to tonight.

SluggersAway
08-10-2006, 12:11 AM
Good to see Sweeney killing someone other than the Sox.

4-game losing streak for Boston! Two against TB and two against the Royals. Time for panic in the streets in Beantown!!!
Funny, I thought I had clicked on the *Official* WHITE SOX post game thread.

It is much too early for wild card race scoreboard gazing.

(I did click on the *Official* WHITE SOX post game thread, but the mods moved my post here.)

illini81887
08-10-2006, 12:11 AM
this should end any dumb papelbn for cy young, ROY, mvp talk if there was any for those catergories

whitesoxfan
08-10-2006, 12:11 AM
Minnesota leads the WC now. Next they have 4 at home vs Toronto. Guess who the only Blue Jay starter they won't see.

Halladay.

Man, they get ALL the breaks.

Guess who the only Twin starter the Jays won't see.

Santana.

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 12:12 AM
Minnesota makes their own breaks. Do you think Gardenhire cares about the luck of the draw with who we face?

Yeah, it sucks we get Verlander Friday too, but we had the best pitchers in the game in the playoffs last year and it didn't seem to matter much.

Excuses aren't going to cut it.

Two months ago, we would love if any team got to go against Silva. And the Twins have a rookie starting Friday in Garza.

SpartanSoxFan
08-10-2006, 12:19 AM
Guess who the only Twin starter the Jays won't see.

Santana.

:bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

illini81887
08-10-2006, 12:20 AM
with a closer wouldnt save % mean more than ERA

Mr. White Sox
08-10-2006, 12:23 AM
with a closer wouldnt save % mean more than ERA
I'd rather have Rivera and his three blown saves over some other pitcher like Mike Gonzalez with a better save %.

Saves are overrated; it's all about the situations.

Hell, Huston Street has something like seven blown saves this year and I'd take him over 85% of the closers out there. I'd bet mostly every closer in the league has a better save % than Street, too.

buehrle4cy05
08-10-2006, 01:32 AM
this should end any dumb papelbn for cy young, ROY, mvp talk if there was any for those catergories


Damn, I had him tabbed for executive of the year.

TheOldRoman
08-10-2006, 01:52 AM
See Takatsu, Shingo.
*Sigh*
Once again, SHINGO WAS NOT FIGURED OUT.
Shingo had a really bad game to start out last year, and that messed with his head. He then lost his control. When he was on, he was close to unhittable. However, when the count is 2-0, and you know an 86 MPH fastball is coming, you are going to hit it hard. Shingo is out of the league because he can't find the strikezone, not because he was "figured out".

Grzegorz
08-10-2006, 06:02 AM
To the D-Rays and Royals, no less.

That is why the White Sox better be focused on every game regardless of the opponent. Way to go KC!

Fenway
08-10-2006, 06:17 PM
Good to see Sweeney killing someone other than the Sox.

4-game losing streak for Boston! Two against TB and two against the Royals. Time for panic in the streets in Beantown!!!

panic is putting it mildly

http://bostondirtdogs.com/

ROYALS 5, RED SOX 4
No relief for Sox
Remember when Red Sox Nation was ready to panic in the streets? It was premature. But maybe not now. (Today's Globe)
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/10/no_relief_as_sox_collapse_in_9th/



friend of mine is at Best Buy tonight after throwing his remote at his new LCD tv .... remote won

CLR01
08-10-2006, 06:33 PM
panic is putting it mildly

http://bostondirtdogs.com/

ROYALS 5, RED SOX 4
No relief for Sox
Remember when Red Sox Nation was ready to panic in the streets? It was premature. But maybe not now. (Today's Globe)
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/10/no_relief_as_sox_collapse_in_9th/



friend of mine is at Best Buy tonight after throwing his remote at his new LCD tv .... remote won


You need to teach him to aim a little left or right. A new remote and a little paint is much cheaper than an LCD TV. Hell teach him to stand up and throw the remote into the couch.

zmz723
08-10-2006, 07:43 PM
Hell teach him to stand up and throw the remote into the couch.

Thats what I do. Why the hell would you throw it at the tv???

also, Lord Papelbon now has 5 blown saves.

caulfield12
08-10-2006, 07:57 PM
No question there's a tremendous reliance on David Ortiz and Ramírez to provide the bulk of the production, especially when things aren't going so well -- the starting rotation is 1-7 in its last 13 starts.

Doesn't that sound familiar?

Is the music from the whitesox intro video derived from the movie Gladiator? Sounds similar....I know James Horner did that soundtrack.

Fenway
08-10-2006, 08:22 PM
Thats what I do. Why the hell would you throw it at the tv???

also, Lord Papelbon now has 5 blown saves.

I suspect he had several Sam Adams :D:

6 game roadtrip to Tampa and KC looked like gravy a week ago....

The Boston pitchers miss Tek bigtime and they have found out what Baltimore already knew Javy Lopez can't catch anymore.

The reality is take way Boston's interleague record they are a .500 team. It could be a very long 7 weeks for the Olde Towne Team

kraut83
08-11-2006, 09:00 AM
The Boston pitchers miss Tek bigtime and they have found out what Baltimore already knew Javy Lopez can't catch anymore.

On a sidenote, didn't Greg Maddux refuse to have Lopez catch his games when they played for the Braves? It sounds like the Sawx were hoping for a bat more than anything.

southside rocks
08-12-2006, 12:23 PM
:ozzie
You saw what I did to Juan last week? Imagine what I would do with a bona fide immature slacker like Manny.................
You said it. Ozzie would cement Manny's behind to the bench!

BigPapaPump
08-12-2006, 01:14 PM
Thats what I do. Why the hell would you throw it at the tv???

also, Lord Papelbon now has 5 blown saves.

:rolling: :rolling:

oops was laughing at your sig

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 03:07 PM
not really sure why you guys are so happy about a mini slump from a guy who has been the best closer in baseball this year...


Threw this awful streak his ERA has gone up to .90 and he's 31 out of 36 save chances.

He's had a ton of 2 inning saves for the season and a couple of his blown saves happened when he did not allow a run.


He's not Rivera or Hoffman but the kid can pitch and darn well.Will he struggle as the season goes on? Maybe, he has never logged in this many inningas as a reliever in his career and maybe he's comming down with dead arm. Though the fact that he was a closer in college makes me believe he'll rebound from the slump.


Next year he'll be an ok to good starter. This season has been pretty special for Papelbon though.

Baby Fisk
08-14-2006, 03:14 PM
not really sure why you guys are so happy about a mini slump from a guy who has been the best closer in baseball this year...


Threw this awful streak his ERA has gone up to .90 and he's 31 out of 36 save chances.

He's had a ton of 2 inning saves for the season and a couple of his blown saves happened when he did not allow a run.


He's not Rivera or Hoffman but the kid can pitch and darn well.Will he struggle as the season goes on? Maybe, he has never logged in this many inningas as a reliever in his career and maybe he's comming down with dead arm. Though the fact that he was a closer in college makes me believe he'll rebound from the slump.


Next year he'll be an ok to good starter. This season has been pretty special for Papelbon though.
He's no Jenks either.

maurice
08-14-2006, 03:52 PM
not really sure why you guys are so happy about a mini slump

You're not sure why we're happy that the Red Cubs overrated closer is sucking up the joint? Have you heard of the Wildcard?!?

a couple of his blown saves happened when he did not allow a run.

That's a cute trick. It's impossible to blow a save without "allowing" a run. Whether he was "charged" with an earned run really is besides the point. A closer's job is to save games (hold the lead through the last out), not to minimize his own ERA.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 05:52 PM
wow in one post someone claims Jenks is better and the other the poster calls the guy overrated and states that he is sucking up the joint.


A bad week is not sucking up the joint, even after this week he's been the best closer in baseball.


The only thing Jenks does better than him is getting K's. Paps ERA is about 2 full runs better than Jenks, in fact with exception of BJ Ryan and Rivera he's head and shoulders better than anyone in the league.

Note that I'm talking about how he's pitching this season, not who has more upside or a better future in store. In fact as a closer, I'm pretty sure Paps will be a starter with in the next two years and be a pretty solid mid rotation starter.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 05:55 PM
You're not sure why we're happy that the Red Cubs overrated closer is sucking up the joint? Have you heard of the Wildcard?!?



That's a cute trick. It's impossible to blow a save without "allowing" a run. Whether he was "charged" with an earned run really is besides the point. A closer's job is to save games (hold the lead through the last out), not to minimize his own ERA.

Really?

SO I guess the time he came in with a one run game in the 8th with 1 out and the bases loaded and allowed 1 run (sac fly) only to win the game in the 9th was a bad game?

It was surely better than his effort last night when he walked 2 in 2/3rd in an inning and was saved by a great pick by Mike Lowell, but since he got a save for the latter I guess he pitched better in it as well.

QCIASOXFAN
08-14-2006, 05:57 PM
wow in one post someone claims Jenks is better and the other the poster calls the guy overrated and states that he is sucking up the joint.


A bad week is not sucking up the joint, even after this week he's been the best closer in baseball.


The only thing Jenks does better than him is getting K's. Paps ERA is about 2 full runs better than Jenks, in fact with exception of BJ Ryan and Rivera he's head and shoulders better than anyone in the league.

Note that I'm talking about how he's pitching this season, not who has more upside or a better future in store. In fact as a closer, I'm pretty sure Paps will be a starter with in the next two years and be a pretty solid mid rotation starter.He has also blown more saves than BBBJ. "Paps" is not as good as Jenks. Get over it.

MUsoxfan
08-14-2006, 05:59 PM
The only thing Jenks does better than him is getting K's. Paps ERA is about 2 full runs better than Jenks, in fact with exception of BJ Ryan and Rivera he's head and shoulders better than anyone in the league.



Wrong


Jenks - 33 saves in 35 opportunities (94%)

Papelbon - 31 saves in 36 opportunities (86%)

Chisox003
08-14-2006, 06:12 PM
Note that I'm talking about how he's pitching this season, not who has more upside or a better future in store. In fact as a closer, I'm pretty sure Paps will be a starter with in the next two years and be a pretty solid mid rotation starter.
And I'm pretty sure we couldn't care less what your plan is for "Paps" future. Why in God's name are you asking a WHITE SOX board why we're happy about his failures in the first place??

When "Paps" is getting the final out in the World Series, we can pick up this discussion then. Until that though, "Bobs" is the better closer. Pretty simple.

1951Campbell
08-14-2006, 06:29 PM
Wrong


Jenks - 33 saves in 35 opportunities (94%)

Papelbon - 31 saves in 36 opportunities (86%)

Pwned.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 06:45 PM
wow this board is crazy sometimes...

first of all, I know it's a white sox board, I like talking baseball and this site gets a lot of traffic so I post here.

2nd: I'm not just some fan boy, if you look at my post history you'll see posts like "Ortiz should not be the MVP" and "Papelbon will make a pretty good starter in the future" I've never made any wacked out claims like the last couple posts would suggest.

3rd: Papelbon vs Jenks....

ERA: .90 vs 3. 60: This is such a massive edge in favor of Paps I can't even begin to understand how some of you are overlooking it. We're talking about one of the best ERA's ever by a reliever and yet some of you dismiss it. My take on Papelbon's ERA, he's been pretty lucky in terms of BA on balls in play.

Save percentage: 95% vs 89% is such a small difference it's hardly worht noting. As someone posted earlier, saves are an overrated stat. They really don't tell us anything since some saves are a lot harder than others. I've watched two of Papelbon's "blown" saves and can tell you he won those games for boston. I'm sure the same is true of Jenks at some point this eyar or last.

BBs 12 vs 21. Paps has walked half as many people as Jenks has in more innings.

WHIP .75 vs 1.25 Once again, Papelbon has done almost twice as well as Jenks in terms of Whip. Meaning he allows almost half as many baserunners as Jenks.

Ks 62 vs 64, Jenks strikes people out at only a slightly better pace.


For this season Paps blows Jenks away in ERA, BBs, WHIP and is pretty much tied with Jenks in Save %, and Ks

So we have one pitcher who allows less runs and less baserunners than the other by a wide wide wide margin and he's worse than Jenks because of 5% of a BS stat? Come one folks use your heads, you are smarter than that.

Once again, I feel that Paps is a good pitcher who will make a pretty solid 3 starter, I'm not claiming he's going to be God or anything, just that this season he's been better than Jenks, and anyone else at closing out games for that matter.

That's far smaller a crime than some of the nutty things I've read here like:

Crede having a decent shot at the HoF
Konerko having good odds at 500 homers
Jenks closing out a WS game making him better than Papelbon (Foulke closed one out to and so did some real bad pitchers I'm sure)

Take it easy folks and breathe. Be happy, your team has better odds at making the post season than anyone not named the Tigers right now... Life is good in whitesox land.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 06:46 PM
Pwned.

read my other post...

Once again one pitcher allows more runs and more baserunners (Jenks) than the other


Papelbon is better.


oh and I was wrong, the spread of that silly stat is 9%, also not all that significant at all.

QCIASOXFAN
08-14-2006, 07:01 PM
[quote="wrong" sox fan]Papelbon is better.

quote]Who has blown more saves? Who has more saves? Papelbon is not as good as Jenks. Actually I would be worried about him if I were a Saux fan.

Green
08-14-2006, 07:10 PM
Save percentage: 95% vs 89% is such a small difference it's hardly worht noting. As someone posted earlier, saves are an overrated stat. .

You say saves are an overrated stat, yet you keep talking about WHIP, ERA, strikeouts, etc....

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:11 PM
[quote="wrong" sox fan]Papelbon is better.

quote]Who has blown more saves? Who has more saves? Papelbon is not as good as Jenks. Actually I would be worried about him if I were a Saux fan.

Wow


Ok the whole point of pitching is to prevent baserunners and runs, Jenks is a better closer even though he is much worse at those to objectives than Papelbon? Right.

Ken Williams would trade Jenks for Papelbon in an instant even though Jenks is younger.

I can't believe you guys want to gloss over the historic ERA Papelbon is sporting through this point in the season and claim that Jenks is better due to 3 games. Insane.

If we emailed every GM in baseball and asked them who is having a better 2006, they would say Papelbon without thinking. Anyone who understands baseball should understand that having an ERA and a Whip under 1 is pretty darn special.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:12 PM
You say saves are an overrated stat, yet you keep talking about WHIP, ERA, strikeouts, etc....


:rolleyes: wow thank you for that.


What does that even mean?

ERA, simply how many runs per nine does he allow, thus far .90 is pretty good.

WHIP how many walks plus hits does he allow, thus far .75 is also pretty good.

These stats tells us so much more than saves

Senerch23
08-14-2006, 07:16 PM
Wow


Ok the whole point of pitching is to prevent baserunners and runs, Jenks is a better closer even though he is much worse at those to objectives than Papelbon? Right.

Ken Williams would trade Jenks for Papelbon in an instant even though Jenks is younger.

I can't believe you guys want to gloss over the historic ERA Papelbon is sporting through this point in the season and claim that Jenks is better due to 3 games. Insane.

If we emailed every GM in baseball and asked them who is having a better 2006, they would say Papelbon without thinking. Anyone who understands baseball should understand that having an ERA and a Whip under 1 is pretty darn special.

Wouldn't you say a closer's job is to close the game? I'll take the guy with the better save percentage with a nearly identical number of opportunities. Obviously Jenks has done a better job of closing the game so far this season than Papelbon has. If they were middle relievers, I'd take Papelbon.

patbooyah
08-14-2006, 07:17 PM
bobby saved games in the world series.

the season is finally starting to heat up and pappy has gone up in flames.

i'll take jenks, thanks.

QCIASOXFAN
08-14-2006, 07:20 PM
Ken Williams would trade Jenks for Papelbon in an instant even though Jenks is younger. :o: Are you kidding!?

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:29 PM
This is my last post about this topic becuase I'm getting too annoyed to deal with no one taking into account the points that I'm making. I don't want to get ugly so I'll finish wiht this:

Jenks is having a fine season but he is not the best closer in the AL this year.

In fact

Papelbon has been better
Street has been better
Rivera has been better
BJ Ryan has been better

The fact that Jenks has a better save percentage than Papelbon is based more on circumstance than anything else. Due to the fact that the stat "save" is based on such an arbitrary set of circumstances it is impossible for one to look at saves and blown saves alone and understand the value of a pitcher. This is as we know becuase all saves are not equal.

What we do know, is that the pitchers I listed above have allowed fewer runs to score, and allow less base runners per inning than Jenks. Therefore they have pitched better.

Papelbon has pitched better to this point than Jenks, I can't understand how you all can dispute this but if you so wish fine.

patbooyah
08-14-2006, 07:33 PM
This is my last post about this topic becuase I'm getting too annoyed to deal with no one taking into account the points that I'm making. I don't want to get ugly so I'll finish wiht this:

Jenks is having a fine season but he is not the best closer in the AL this year.

In fact

Papelbon has been better
Street has been better
Rivera has been better
BJ Ryan has been better

The fact that Jenks has a better save percentage than Papelbon is based more on circumstance than anything else. Due to the fact that the stat "save" is based on such an arbitrary set of circumstances it is impossible for one to look at saves and blown saves alone and understand the value of a pitcher. This is as we know becuase all saves are not equal.

What we do know, is that the pitchers I listed above have allowed fewer runs to score, and allow less base runners per inning than Jenks. Therefore they have pitched better.

Papelbon has pitched better to this point than Jenks, I can't understand how you all can dispute this but if you so wish fine.

i'm not arguing about stats. i'm simply pointing out that Jenks is a proven high pressure winner. papicita hasn't proven that he is yet.

MUsoxfan
08-14-2006, 07:34 PM
Papelbon has been better
Street has been better
Rivera has been better
BJ Ryan has been better



That's fine. The Sox have tagged all those guys this year.

MarySwiss
08-14-2006, 07:35 PM
:o: Are you kidding!?

Well, his aunt's second cousin-in-law probably was standing near the baggage claim area at Sky Harbor airport in Phoenix recently and heard Kenny on a cell phone talking about how jealous he was that the wrong Sox had the world's greatest closer and here the right Sox were stuck with crappy ol' Bobby Jenks.

BTW, about not wanting to get ugly....

No, it's tempting, but I'll take the high road.

patbooyah
08-14-2006, 07:36 PM
That's fine. The Sox have tagged all those guys this year.

yep. jenks is the one guy on that list that the sox haven't gotten to this year. :cool:

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:37 PM
i'm not arguing about stats. i'm simply pointing out that Jenks is a proven high pressure winner. papicita hasn't proven that he is yet.

I suppose if the Red Sox should make it play off time they should give the closer role back to Foulke then.


David Ortiz the most mythic cluth hitter of all time according to some in the media, sucked real hard in the play offs once.


proven winner status means nothing, its just something people like to write about on sports columns or message boards.


sorry for breaking my self inficted papelbon thread ban.

MUsoxfan
08-14-2006, 07:37 PM
yep. jenks is the one guy on that list that the sox haven't gotten to this year. :cool:

haha...that's right. It's good to be a White Sox fan this year. There is no pitcher that's unhittable, no matter what the numbers say

patbooyah
08-14-2006, 07:38 PM
I suppose if the Red Sox should make it play off time they should give the closer role back to Foulke then.


David Ortiz the most mythic cluth hitter of all time according to some in the media, sucked real hard in the play offs once.


proven winner status means nothing, its just something people like to write about on sports columns or message boards.


sorry for breaking my self inficted papelbon thread ban.

haha. it's okay. i'm not saying papelbon will be bad in the playoffs, but the red sox are playing some very important games and he is not helping them out.

he is a great pitcher, no doubt, but bobby got it done for us last year and i think you're going to find a lot of loyalty here because of that.

MarySwiss
08-14-2006, 07:39 PM
sorry for breaking my self inficted papelbon thread ban.

:whistle: continuing to take the high road.... :whistle:

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:41 PM
Well, his aunt's second cousin-in-law probably was standing near the baggage claim area at Sky Harbor airport in Phoenix recently and heard Kenny on a cell phone talking about how jealous he was that the wrong Sox had the world's greatest closer and here the right Sox were stuck with crappy ol' Bobby Jenks.

BTW, about not wanting to get ugly....

No, it's tempting, but I'll take the high road.


go for it,

I've not said anything outside of people on this board posting crazy ideas here and there... I doubt most people would be offended by that or feel that I'm not correct about it either.


And FYI: If posting crazy notions that are incorrect are the worst sins commited by the posters of this board than the people here are angels. THere is nothing wrong with getting carried away with how much one loves their team. Even if it defies reason.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:47 PM
haha. it's okay. i'm not saying papelbon will be bad in the playoffs, but the red sox are playing some very important games and he is not helping them out.

he is a great pitcher, no doubt, but bobby got it done for us last year and i think you're going to find a lot of loyalty here because of that.


I also feel that Jenks is a fine pitcher. And if white sox fans like him (and they should) that's wonderful.

Also if white sox fans have more faith in him that's great, I'm only saying that based on the numbers Papelbon is having a better year.


J. Dye is having a wonderful year, best of his career by far... I would have more faith in Jim Edmonds than him but that doesn't mean Dye isn't better this year.

(please note I'm not bashing Dye, just saying that I can understand how some people might have more faith in a player due to reasons out side of present stats)

MarySwiss
08-14-2006, 07:49 PM
go for it,

I've not said anything outside of people on this board posting crazy ideas here and there... I doubt most people would be offended by that or feel that I'm not correct about it either.


And FYI: If posting crazy notions that are incorrect are the worst sins commited by the posters of this board than the people here are angels. THere is nothing wrong with getting carried away with how much one loves their team. Even if it defies reason.

I'm not offended; I think crazy ideas are cuter than hell. :rolleyes:

But as far as loving your team in defiance of reason goes, I can only refer you to the top of this page--the Totally Biased motto.

Although I don't concede that loving the defending World Champs is in defiance of reason.

Senerch23
08-14-2006, 07:54 PM
haha...that's right. It's good to be a White Sox fan this year. There is no pitcher that's unhittable, no matter what the numbers say

Unfortunately, Johan Satana still is for this team. Hopefully they turn that around this weekend.

"wrong" sox fan
08-14-2006, 07:56 PM
I'm not offended; I think crazy ideas are cuter than hell. :rolleyes:

But as far as loving your team in defiance of reason goes, I can only refer you to the top of this page--the Totally Biased motto.

Although I don't concede that loving the defending World Champs is in defiance of reason.

The onion once had an article that siad

"Expecting mother acting like she's the first person to ever have a child"


Sometimes I feel like that when I talk to White Sox fans, I know a lot for some reason.

It's wonderful and good to be biased a bit about ones team but it seems anytime I make a point it goes into a RaRaRa go white sox debate.


The White Sox are the best built team in baseball, I have little doubt of that in my mind. Their fans should be very happy, but at the same time it is a mistake to overvalue one's own players out of love.

I think I've made my case as well as anyone can in Papelbon V Jenks and I don't mean to offend... I'm just getting annoyed at the fact that I can't say one thing without 6 posts telling me I'm wrong or to a Red Sox board.

MarySwiss
08-14-2006, 08:03 PM
The onion once had an article that siad

"Expecting mother acting like she's the first person to ever have a child"


Sometimes I feel like that when I talk to White Sox fans, I know a lot for some reason.

It's wonderful and good to be biased a bit about ones team but it seems anytime I make a point it goes into a RaRaRa go white sox debate.


The White Sox are the best built team in baseball, I have little doubt of that in my mind. Their fans should be very happy, but at the same time it is a mistake to overvalue one's own players out of love.

I think I've made my case as well as anyone can in Papelbon V Jenks and I don't mean to offend... I'm just getting annoyed at the fact that I can't say one thing without 6 posts telling me I'm wrong or to a Red Sox board.

Well, this IS a (right) Sox fan board you're posting on, ya know. But hey! sorry to learn you're annoyed.

maurice
08-14-2006, 09:44 PM
Further proof that Red Cub fans know nothing about baseball...as if we needed any.

Once more, real slowly: A closer's job is to save games, irrespective of the situation. If he enters a game with the lead and relinquishes that lead, he has failed as a closer (and earned a BS). ERA and WHIP are completely meaningless to a closer. Allowing inherited runners to score resulting in a blown save (but no ER) is far more egregious than, say, allowing 3 ER in a meaningless blowout when your manager simply inserted you to get some work before an off day.

The best closer is the one who is best at saving games. Jenks has been much better at saving games (Papelbon has 2 fewer saves and 250% more blown saves than Jenks). Therefore, Jenks (and Rivera and Jones and Hoffman and Rodriguez and Borowski and Nathan, etc.) has been a better closer than the overrated fellow in Boston. QED.

maurice
08-14-2006, 09:49 PM
I'm just getting annoyed at the fact that I can't say one thing without 6 posts telling me I'm wrong or to a Red Sox board.

This is a ridiculous complaint. If you don't want people giving you reasons why you are wrong, you should stop posting ESPN-inspired nonsense on a well-reasoned board and go post on a homer Red Cub site. I'm sure they all share your fascination with your overrated pitching staff (Papelbon, Schilling, Beckett, etc.).

FarWestChicago
08-14-2006, 10:30 PM
Hell, I just wish the Wrong Sox would have tried as hard, instead of laying down like dogs, against the MCK's as "wrong sox" did in this thread. :o:

goon
08-14-2006, 10:35 PM
Further proof that Red Cub fans know nothing about baseball...as if we needed any.

Once more, real slowly: A closer's job is to save games, irrespective of the situation. If he enters a game with the lead and relinquishes that lead, he has failed as a closer (and earned a BS). ERA and WHIP are completely meaningless to a closer. Allowing inherited runners to score resulting in a blown save (but no ER) is far more egregious than, say, allowing 3 ER in a meaningless blowout when your manager simply inserted you to get some work before an off day.

The best closer is the one who is best at saving games. Jenks has been much better at saving games (Papelbon has 2 fewer saves and 250% more blown saves than Jenks). Therefore, Jenks (and Rivera and Jones and Hoffman and Rodriguez and Borowski and Nathan, etc.) has been a better closer than the overrated fellow in Boston. QED.

word.

1951Campbell
08-14-2006, 10:43 PM
I think I've made my case as well as anyone can in Papelbon V Jenks and I don't mean to offend... I'm just getting annoyed at the fact that I can't say one thing without 6 posts telling me I'm wrong or to a Red Sox board.

Don't sweat it, you make me giggle, I lived in Boston for 4 years! :D:

What was that glib little sound bite WEEI used to play about their callers?

"The unemployed and the dead."

:wink:

1951Campbell
08-14-2006, 10:46 PM
The onion once had an article that siad

"Expecting mother acting like she's the first person to ever have a child"



That's funny, millions of non-Red Sox fans felt that way when they finally won a World Series again. :D:

"wrong" sox fan
08-15-2006, 03:01 AM
Further proof that Red Cub fans know nothing about baseball...as if we needed any.

Once more, real slowly: A closer's job is to save games, irrespective of the situation. If he enters a game with the lead and relinquishes that lead, he has failed as a closer (and earned a BS). ERA and WHIP are completely meaningless to a closer. Allowing inherited runners to score resulting in a blown save (but no ER) is far more egregious than, say, allowing 3 ER in a meaningless blowout when your manager simply inserted you to get some work before an off day.

The best closer is the one who is best at saving games. Jenks has been much better at saving games (Papelbon has 2 fewer saves and 250% more blown saves than Jenks). Therefore, Jenks (and Rivera and Jones and Hoffman and Rodriguez and Borowski and Nathan, etc.) has been a better closer than the overrated fellow in Boston. QED.


ok all fan bases know about the same as all others, there are the fans who know nothing and the fans who know tons...

Second of all the overrated fellow in boston has allowed fewer runs than any other closer in baseball and thus has pitched better... I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.

Using your logic Beckett is having a better year than Clemens as starters are supposed to get wins right?


this is insane, how come know non white sox fan will arguee that Jenks is doing better than Paps, must be East Coast bias.

mmmmmbeeer
08-15-2006, 03:33 AM
what's hawk's line, "don't tell me how you hit em, tell me when you hit em".

This applies to closers too, imo. When the game is on the line and a pitcher is responsible for getting that last out, I want the guy that comes through. I don't care what his ERA is, I don't care about his WHIP, any of that, I want the guy who gets it done. Bobby Jenks gets it done. Papsmear gets it done less often.

I don't know if you're familiar with ole Damaso Marte and his contributions to the '05 White Sox, but his ERA was pretty good and yet the guy blew more games and allowed more inherited runners to score than anyone I've ever seen. ERA and WHIP don't really tell the whole story.

I wouldn't be uncomfortable if the Sox had Papsmear on the mound in the 9th inning, but I can't say I'd trade Bobby to get Smear on the mound.

"wrong" sox fan
08-15-2006, 03:36 AM
ok this is my last post on this site:

Thank you to those who actually debated in a meaningful way (yes, a few of my threads actually got some good debate going) and sorry to anyone I may have offended.

I feel I should stop posting at this site because I've become more angry reading the posts in this thread than any other thread I've ever read outside of some of the wacky stuff I've seen on neo conservative boards. Yes, this thread has pissed me off even more than any yankee thread. I started posting here after reading the awful Manny Ramirez is a piece of SH$% thread... I should have known better.

Really the thing that set me off the most is the "Red Cubs fans know nothing about baseball" That's smug bull crap at the highest level. Boston fans as a whole know about the same as fans from any other city. A baseball fan my entire life, I consider myself atleast somewhat smart. High SAT scores, math skills and the ability to actually make enough money to live (barely) by playing poker over two years seem to back up this insane notion. Sure I may not be the brightest person to ever post on this board (but with an IQ above 135 I suspect I'm in the highest quartile) but atleast I know that general comments such of that have no merit when trying to make a point. In basic oral com. They call that demonizing speach, it brings nothing to the table other than the hope of pissing people off.

Now to the issue at hand.

Anyone who follows baseball and understands how the game works can tell you that saves are an overrated stat. As I've mentioned about 10000 times already all saves are not equal, ask Bill James, Rob Neyer, Baseball American, Baseball Prospectus and they will agree. Likewise, they will agree that Jonathan Papelbon is having a better season than Bobby Jenks, this si becuase he simply has allowed fewer baserunners/ runs over the course of this season. Granted (and I admited this already) Papelbon has been aided by a freakish batting average on balls in play over the course of this season there is no way of knowing who will better over the course of the next several months, seasons, careers.

A good points made in this thread would be that of ERA being overrated for closers. This is of course true, however, when looking at an ERA of less than 1 run it is impossible to make the claim that the pitcher in queston has been nothing short of stellar. The fact that the single best season ever by a closer was in 1990 by the Eck and his ERA was .60 and his whip was around .70 I'd say Papelbon is having a pretty god damn special season. (although I'm sure some here would suggest Jenks is doing better than that of the Eck in 90)

Never have I said that Papelbon should get the Cy Young, in fact I feel that since closers are usually overrated in general they should not get this award unless they do something really freaky (see 1990 again) I do believe that at this point he should win fireman of the year with little trouble and compete for the RoY with a couple of the other awesome young pitchers in the AL.

I know I'm wasting my time and most I can expect from replies to this thread will include, "Good leave, way to suck" or "Look at the save%". but I've had enough and have to post this.

I know a lot of white sox fans and for the most part they are awesome people, I will not let this month of posting on this site sour the respect I have for the White Sox as a team or the great City they play for...

The white sox are the best built team in baseball and should make the post season this year (and after that, like every post season it is a crap shoot) if they White Sox suffer defeat I will lurk here to watch some of the posters I have issue with choke of some much needed humble pie, if they win I'll be happy for the thousands of awesome white sox fans there are, the ones that post here and the ones who don't.

Good bye good luck and for all those who responded with one liners about the play offs last year or how overrated Papelbon has been this year I assure you the experts (and I don't mean ESPN) would all tell you the same thing as I. That of today in 2006, Papelbon has been the best closer in baseball. Jenks is very good, but thus far Papelbon has been better.'''

SoxFanPrope
08-15-2006, 08:21 AM
The first time I saw anybody keep the WHIP stat, was in fantasy baseball. I think it's one of the most pointless stats in all of baseball.

The Immigrant
08-15-2006, 08:48 AM
ok this is my last post on this site:


Goodbye, and thank you for reaffirming my disdain for Red Sox fans.

Baby Fisk
08-15-2006, 08:54 AM
Ken Williams would trade Jenks for Papelbon in an instant even though Jenks is younger.


:rolleyes:

"Waaah! I come here to post about my awesome favourite Papelbon and nobody sides with me. Jerks! Waaaah!" :whiner:

1951Campbell
08-15-2006, 09:12 AM
...I consider myself atleast somewhat smart. High SAT scores, math skills and the ability to actually make enough money to live (barely) by playing poker over two years seem to back up this insane notion. Sure I may not be the brightest person to ever post on this board (but with an IQ above 135 I suspect I'm in the highest quartile) but atleast I know that general comments such of that have no merit when trying to make a point. In basic oral com. They call that demonizing speach, it brings nothing to the table other than the hope of pissing people off.


If you're familiar with the rhetorical concept of "demonizing speech", perhaps you're also familiar with the rhetorical concept of "arguing from authority." In case you are not, I have bolded a most ham-fisted yet hilarious example above.

Oblong
08-15-2006, 09:35 AM
If someone has to tell you how smart they are then are they not really good at making the point they are trying to make.

FielderJones
08-15-2006, 11:02 AM
If someone has to tell you how smart they are then are they not really good at making the point they are trying to make.

And the Tigers fan shows the Red Cubs fan how to coexist on a rival fan board. Well played, Oblong.

Norberto7
08-15-2006, 03:01 PM
...the ability to actually make enough money to live (barely) by playing poker...with an IQ above 135...

Haha, that's hilarious. You have an IQ of 135 and the best you can do is barely scrape by by playing poker.

If only Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein had it all figured it out as well you have done....

maurice
08-15-2006, 03:11 PM
ok this is my last post on this site

Since this is about the sixth time you said that you're done replying, I fully expect another long-winded and illogical post from you any minute now. Of course, your next post will not rebut (or even acknowledge) the points I made regarding the relative value of closers. I guess a genius like you is smart enough to know that, when you've been thoroughly beaten with logic and have no relevant response, you should simply change the subject.
:rolleyes:

I feel I should stop posting at this site because I've become more angry reading the posts in this thread than any other thread I've ever read outside of some of the wacky stuff I've seen on neo conservative boards. Yes, this thread has pissed me off even more than any yankee thread.

Wow, you'd think that a genius like you would be smart enough not to get his panties in a bunch over posts on the Internet. I guess the truth hurts.

Anyone who follows baseball and understands how the game works can tell you that saves are an overrated stat.

You're changing the subject. Assuming for the sake of argument that saves are an overrated stat, the position of "closer" is defined by this stat. Indeed, it was created by this stat. We're not talking about the value of pitchers generally or even the value of relievers generally. We're talking about closers.

Similarly, we're not talking about who is going to be a better closer (nobody knows). We're talking about who has been a better closer. To answer this narrow question, we need only reference the relevant stats (saves & blown saves) to determine that Jenks is better. The rest is sophistry.

ask Bill James, Rob Neyer, Baseball American, Baseball Prospectus and they will agree.

Appeal to authority without citation. Worst argument ever.
Your "logic" does not resemble our Earth logic.

Years from now, we'll look back fondly on this thread and recall the irrational Red Cub fan who claimed that save % doesn't matter to a closer and that "95% vs 89% is such a small difference it's hardly worht noting" (sic). It's a good thing we're not talking about offense, or we'd have to listen to the genius explain that a .400 OBP and a .340 OBP are essentially identical. After all, a .06 difference in a rate stat isn't "hardly worht noting."
:rolleyes:

SoxFanPrope
08-15-2006, 03:18 PM
Since this is about the sixth time you said that you're done replying, I fully expect another long-winded and illogical post from you any minute now. Of course, your next post will not rebut (or even acknowledge) the points I made regarding the relative value of closers. I guess a genius like you is smart enough to know that, when you've been thoroughly beaten with logic and have no relevant response, you should simply change the subject.
:rolleyes:
Wow, you'd think that a genius like you would be smart enough not to get his panties in a bunch over posts on the Internet. I guess the truth hurts.
You're changing the subject. Assuming for the sake of argument that saves are an overrated stat, the position of "closer" is defined by this stat. Indeed, it was created by this stat. We're not talking about the value of pitchers generally or even the value of relievers generally. We're talking about closers.
Similarly, we're not talking about who is going to be a better closer (nobody knows). We're talking about who has been a better closer. To answer this narrow question, we need only reference the relevant stats (saves & blown saves) to determine that Jenks is better. The rest is sophistry.
Appeal to authority without citation. Worst argument ever.
Your "logic" does not resemble our Earth logic.
Years from now, we'll look back fondly on this thread and recall the irrational Red Cub fan who claimed that save % doesn't matter to a closer and that "95% vs 89% is such a small difference it's hardly worht noting" (sic). It's a good thing we're not talking about offense, or we'd have to listen to the genius explain that a .400 OBP and a .340 OBP are essentially identical. After all, a .06 difference in a rate stat isn't "hardly worht noting."
:rolleyes:
Well done! :thumbsup: :worship: