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View Full Version : RE: Javy Vaz's Turnaround


danjames
08-06-2006, 12:24 PM
For a year and a half now, Vazquez has been very inconsistent. This didn't change upon his arrival to the Sox, but it took us until August to try changing his delivery? Doesn't that seem strange? Why wait so long? I'm extatic it finally happened, and it's great to see results, but it does make you wonder.

soxfanreggie
08-06-2006, 12:24 PM
Great game by Javy, but it's going to take more than one to show me that he can consistently do this.

TheOldRoman
08-06-2006, 12:52 PM
I have possibly been Javier's biggest supporter, but lets wait a few more starts to call this a turnaround.

It's not unusual for Javier to wait this long to change something. First of all, pitchers are used to repetition, and they have thrown the same exact way thousands of times. It is hard to change something so quickly. Most importantly, Javier has been able to dominate in the past. Even through his roughest streak this year, he wasn't rocked. He looked lights out in every game, and then he fell apart when he hit adversity. Of course, he wasn't knocked around the park. His big innings were usually results of a walk (for nitpiking the strikezone), a bad defensive play, and a bloop or two. That appears to be more of a mental problem than a physical problem.

It appears that the changes Coop made have made it easier for Javier. He was much more comfortable on the mound, and he felt like he was able to dominate. He said after the game "the difference in this one was, I knew I was going to get them out." That is huge, seeing as Javy's problems have been between the ears. If he feels he will dominate, most of the time he will. Coop saw something, and suggested it to Javy, and he ran with it. It is good that we have nothing but good guys on our staff. There are more than a few pitchers who, even through this recent bad streak, wouldn't accept coaching, or wouldn't change up something they had always done.

Also, I think the offense had a lot to do with the game yesterday. They knew they needed to get Javier over the hump, so they went out and rocked two pitchers. The Sox picked up 3 in the 5th and 1 in the 6th. Those runs are huge, because if it were still 3-1, Vazquez would have been out of the game after 5. The offense gave Vazquez enough of a cushion that he was allowed to finish the 5th, and go into the 6th. He got over a big roadblock yesterday. Hopefully he can go past 6 innings in his next several starts, and the 6th inning meltdowns will become a non-issue at that point.

The Dude
08-06-2006, 12:56 PM
I also have had a tough time with people wanting to trade him for a bag of balls. Javy is a damn good pitcher and has nasty stuff.
I supported getting Javy, I supported him early in the season, through his struggles of late, and will continue supporting him throughout the season.
I hope yesterday's start will help his confidence because as hawk would say, it's all between the ears.

danjames
08-06-2006, 01:25 PM
Great replies. I agree it is too early to classify this as a turnaround, but I think that just his demeanor alone during that game was a complete 180 from what we've seen from Javy. Even when he was going good in early innings of previous starts, he's never looked that sharp and in control. He'd usually hang a few breaking balls and get away with it, or just give up a single or double. He was really in command yesterday, and I hope it continues so that trading a prospect like Chris Young doesn't seem like such a mistake in a few years.

beckett21
08-06-2006, 01:28 PM
I've been on the Javier Vazquez bandwagon from Day 1, and I see no reason to abandon ship now.

If his head is on straight, the guy is flat-out nasty. Expect more good things to come from here on out.

cws05champ
08-06-2006, 01:43 PM
Seems like a classic "tin Cup" type adjustment by Coop. In the movie when Cheech tell costner to move the change in his posket from one pocket to the other. It's all in his head....

Ol' No. 2
08-07-2006, 10:21 AM
Seems like a classic "tin Cup" type adjustment by Coop. In the movie when Cheech tell costner to move the change in his posket from one pocket to the other. It's all in his head....No it's not. A change in foot angle when you land is huge. Pointing that foot toward the dugout opens up the shoulders and tends to flatten out the breaking pitches. The effect is larger pitching out of the stretch since you don't get as much push from your body. I believe this is why he seemed to allow other teams to string together hits.

I'm also a little surprised it took this long to figure it out. It might seem like a little thing when you see it, but it has a large effect and pitching coaches know all about this.

spiffie
08-07-2006, 11:24 AM
I loved that last start. I hope he can pitch well the rest of the year. But I'm not ready to proclaim him an ace after this start. I remember the stretch early this year when he had a 4-start run of giving up only 4 ER over 27 2/3 innings. In his next 3 starts he gave up 15 ER over 18 2/3 innings. Then he threw a shutout next start. Hopefully at the very worst he's hitting a good streak again.

kwolf68
08-07-2006, 02:08 PM
What was most impressive about this game was Javy gave up the leadoff dinger to Glaus and then Overbay rips a shot right behind it.

I'm thinking, "here we go again", but Javy settled down and made some outstanding pitches to get out of it.

I have NOT been this guys biggest supporter, but recognize he probably has the best raw stuff of any starter we have. He has "ace talent", but has not pitched like it.

Hopefully, that game is the beginning of a great run for Javy.

kwolf68
08-07-2006, 02:14 PM
No it's not. A change in foot angle when you land is huge. Pointing that foot toward the dugout opens up the shoulders and tends to flatten out the breaking pitches. The effect is larger pitching out of the stretch since you don't get as much push from your body. I believe this is why he seemed to allow other teams to string together hits.

I'm also a little surprised it took this long to figure it out. It might seem like a little thing when you see it, but it has a large effect and pitching coaches know all about this.


Very good analysis. This is what makes baseball such that it is..."tiny little things" can have astronimical effects.

I had a kid I coached who was having trouble hitting the ball out in front of the plate, but he had such a great swing/fundamentals...we worked and worked and finally we moved his feet in his stance about 4 more inches apart and viola'....the kid can hit. Before that move we tried a lighter bat, choking up, moving back in the box, moving the bat around in his stance to other locations and all it took was just a wider stance.

And now you talk about Javy, a talented pro pitcher and I imagine the corrections are even more finitie.

That is one of the MANY reasons I love this game so much.

soxinem1
08-07-2006, 06:47 PM
Great game by Javy, but it's going to take more than one to show me that he can consistently do this.

He trusted his fastball more than in any other game he has thrown for us, and look what happens. And the Jays have a nice line up.

Thou who trust in good stuff usually winds up doing well. Thou who tries to nibble corners with junk usually gets hammered. Let's hope the hammer is gone for awhile.

StatHead21
08-07-2006, 07:56 PM
I'm shocked it took Coop this long to fix him.

Just add him to the list of wasted talent that Coop has fixed.(knock on wood)
Contreras
Thornton
Jenks
Loaiza
Vazquez

Hopefully he can fix MacDougal so he can add to the list

santo=dorf
08-07-2006, 08:00 PM
How is Jenks Coop's credit? He always had the stuff but the Sox were smart enough to make him a reliever instead of starting.

TheOldRoman
08-07-2006, 08:41 PM
How is Jenks Coop's credit? He always had the stuff but the Sox were smart enough to make him a reliever instead of starting.
IIRC, Jenks had a reputation in the minors of someone who had nasty stuff but couldn't find the plate. He hasn't had control issues since he came up.

StatHead21
08-07-2006, 08:47 PM
How is Jenks Coop's credit? He always had the stuff but the Sox were smart enough to make him a reliever instead of starting.

Jenks was pretty wild when he first came up. The point of that list was all of those guys had the stuff, Coop fixed them.

Frontman
08-07-2006, 10:40 PM
I think 2 or 3 more solid starts out of Javy will then give us a strong pitcher that Coop saw.

Now if Coop could just work that magic on ol' number 56 and get Mark back into shape.......