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View Full Version : Where is Jim Thome as a 3 hitter?


cgaudin
08-05-2006, 11:31 PM
I just wanted to know from y'all what you think a good 3 hitter needs to do. Specifically, in stastistical categories. Who have been the quintessential 3 hitters in the last 40 years? And how does Jim Thome compare?

friarhky22
08-05-2006, 11:40 PM
I think Frank Thomas, in his prime, was a perfect example of a #3 hitter. I'd say as a #3 hitter, you need to hit for power, be able to take a walk (high OBP), and obviously at least have a decent average. I think being able to take a walk in the 3 spot is crucial because it puts a man on base for the #4 and #5 hitters. Taking a walk in the #4 hole is less important because of the weaker hitters that follow.

Thome has a lower avg than Thomas, but shares the other two qualities.

SoxWillWin
08-05-2006, 11:49 PM
I just wanted to know from y'all what you think a good 3 hitter needs to do. Specifically, in stastistical categories. Who have been the quintessential 3 hitters in the last 40 years? And how does Jim Thome compare?

IMO what a #3 hitter needs to do depends on the manager of the team. Every manager has a different take on the 3 spot. The trend nowadays seems to be, from my point of view, that a preffered #3 hitter would be an above average power hitter, someone who can drive in a lot of runs , decent speed, and high on base percentage.

As far as Thome goes the only thing he lacks is decent speed. So IMO Thome would be (and has been) an above average #3 hitter.

nedlug
08-06-2006, 12:32 AM
You need a guy in the 3 hole who can not just hit homeruns, and not just get on base; you need the complete package - OBP, doubles, homers. Your ideal 3 hitter would be a bridge from the 'get on base' attitude of the 1-2 guys to the 'power, drive in runs' attitude of the 4-5 guys. He should be able to drive the 1 or 2 hitter on, but also be able to get on for the cleanup hitter (as well as score from first on a cleanup hitter's double).

As you may have suspected, I firmly believe that our best 3 hitter is right now occupying the 5 hole. If I were the manager, I would go Dye-Thome-PK... then again, I never won a World Series, and this setup sure seems to be working just fine.

My two cents on the 'ideal' 3 guy, if there is such a thing.

DaleJRFan
08-06-2006, 03:29 AM
Thome is the best option for the Sox in the 3 hole, for a variety of reasons, OBP, power, contact, etc, but... in terms of which players bat around him, Ozzie makes it difficult for opposing managers by dropping two dangerous righty bats behind Thome. Would you want to throw a loogy in the game against Thome, only to have to leave them in against PK/Dye or use up a guy for one batter?

In terms of "ideal" #3 hitters? Carlos Beltran could be it, at least this year. He hits for power to drive in the guys ahead, he gets on base, can run well for the bigger bats behinds him. He has the whole package. Maggs circa 2001/2002 would be a pretty good candidate for "Ideal #3 hitters" as well.

TDog
08-06-2006, 04:39 AM
The ideal No. 3 hitter was Babe Ruth when Lou Gehrig was batting cleanup. (When the Yankees started putting numbers on uniforms, the first round of Yankees numbers reflected players' regular spots in the batting order). Ted Williams didn't hit for as high an average (career .342 for Williams vs. .344 for Ruth) and didn't hit as many home runs (521 vs. 714), but Williams didn't strike out as often. He was a good No. 3 hitter.

Billy Williams was a pretty good No. 3 hitter. In 1972, Dick Allen was an incredible No. 3 hitter. Frank Thomas had better numbers and did it year in and year out, but I don't think he ever dominated the league as Dick Allen briefly did. And Dick Allen is the only hitter mentioned here who will never be inducted into baseball's Hall of Fame.

Your No. 3 hitter is the most dangerous hitter on year team. He should be a line-drive hitter with extra-base and home run power. Your leadoff man might have a higher batting average, but the No. 3 hitter won't benefit from as many bloop or infield hits.

Thome qualifies.

nedlug
08-06-2006, 10:11 AM
When you talk of the MVP of our team (heck, the whole AL), the guy that always comes up is JD. I know that defense does come in to play when talking about that, but the question remains: all other things being equal, if you had a guy on base in the bottom of the 9th in a tie ballgame, who do you want out of our lineup to be at bat? That, I would say, is your 'best hitter on the team.'

I would want JD up there... not only does he not strike out as much as JT (77 to 105), but he seems to do exactly what he needs to do at the plate more often - I can remember more than one time that JT has struck out with a guy on third, less than 2 outs. Also, JD gives us the possibility of legging out an infield single or beating out a DP throw; the other guys are just simply not as fast. Also, the LOOGY is only meant for one out anyway, and having PK behind JT will automatically get that guy bumped from the mound.

Basically, I guess I value speed out of my 3 guy more than others here, which doesn't make me wrong or right - just of a different opinion. Don't get me wrong, I think that Thome is doing a heck of a job - I would just put up a slightly different lineup out there.

DickAllen72
08-06-2006, 11:02 AM
When you talk of the MVP of our team (heck, the whole AL), the guy that always comes up is JD. I know that defense does come in to play when talking about that, but the question remains: all other things being equal, if you had a guy on base in the bottom of the 9th in a tie ballgame, who do you want out of our lineup to be at bat? That, I would say, is your 'best hitter on the team.'

I would want JD up there... not only does he not strike out as much as JT (77 to 105), but he seems to do exactly what he needs to do at the plate more often - I can remember more than one time that JT has struck out with a guy on third, less than 2 outs. Also, JD gives us the possibility of legging out an infield single or beating out a DP throw; the other guys are just simply not as fast. Also, the LOOGY is only meant for one out anyway, and having PK behind JT will automatically get that guy bumped from the mound.

Basically, I guess I value speed out of my 3 guy more than others here, which doesn't make me wrong or right - just of a different opinion. Don't get me wrong, I think that Thome is doing a heck of a job - I would just put up a slightly different lineup out there.

I agree with everything you wrote with the exception that JD is also slow. Of course when you compare him with Thome, Konerko, A.J., Crede, etc. I guess he appears to be not quite as slow.

Anyway, Dye should be batting third with Thome cleanup and Paulie fifth. Thome strikes out too much for a third place hitter. He is also too slow and he swings for the fences all the time. Not knocking Jim, but he is a perfect cleanup hitter not a number three.

Dye hits for a better average, has better bat control and makes more contact. You can do more with him at the plate and runners on base (hit & run, start the runners with two strikes, etc.).

Having Dye, Thome, Konerko gives the Sox a killer R-L-R middle of the lineup and it gives Thome more of a chance to have another runner on base when he swings for the fences and connects.

BTW, Dick Allen circa '72, was the perfect number three hitter. No one on the current Sox team compares.

jabrch
08-06-2006, 11:10 AM
IMO, the only think Thome is lacking to be a complete #3 hitter is regularly slapping the ball the other way and take the base hit when they are overshifting on him, and there are RISP. If he did that a bit more often, he'd drive his batting average up and look like more of a 3 hitter.

cgaudin
08-06-2006, 11:10 AM
That's a lot of very interesting takes on the #3 hitter. I have a few conclusions based on some raw analysis and historical data. I also agree that Frank Thomas exemplified the offensive qualities of a 3 hitter.

Jim Thome has received a lot of love from Sox fans this year. Deservedly so, he is largely responsible for the Sox being at or near the Top of most offensive categories. If it wasn't for the upgraded offense the Sox would not likely be in playoff contention at this juncture, given the less than stellar pitching.


During the Sox's recent struggles, many fans have complained that the Sox have gotten away from what enabled them to win close ballgames last season, their ability to move runners over and score without the benefit of a hit, small ball, "Ozzie ball", FUNDAMENTAL offense, etc. The biggest change, of course, is Jim Thome, and he set the pace for the MANNER in which this team would score runs very early in the season. The Sox tried in the beginning to follow the formula in which they scored runs last year. Scott Podsednic struggled mightily early in the year to get on base and was caught stealing at an alarming rate when he did get on. Coupled with Thome driving and scoring runs at a record setting pace, the pitching was just good enough to win a lot of ballgames, thus the offensive TEMPO of this team wasn't taken into question. Now that Thome's come down to Earth, along with Pods' continuing struggles, the offense had sputtered. Even Ozzie complained of the one-dimensional manner in which the Sox have scored runs.


I couldn't agree more that Thome is a HUGE improvement in the Sox's offensive production, and it would be playoff suicide to take him off the lineup. My ONLY contention is that Thome is not the right guy to hit third. He leads BOTH leagues in strikeouts as a 3 hitter, by a lot. Thome is better suited batting 4th or 5th in this lineup. I think the ONLY reason Ozzie hasn't moved him down the lineup is because of the flexibility the alternating lefty, righty, lefty, righty lineup provides and how difficult it becomes to pitch around in the late innings. I must admit that it is formidable. I only wish that Ozzie insert a more consistent hitter who PUTS THE BALL IN PLAY, even if his power numbers are not intimidating, WHILE keeping Thome a couple of spots further down the order. Thome is at his career pace of striking out at a 30% rate, that is 1 out of 3 times up to bat. That is insane! There is no other 3 hitter who comes close to that strikeout rate. Big Papi is second on the list with a 21% ratio, which is still high. Thome is, in my opinion, why it is feast or famine for the Sox's scoring options. The Sox have built this lineup to exploit Thome's strengths. Problem is, if he struggles, so will the run production.


I'm not insinuating Thome is not a good hitter, He's a fearsome power bat that has added even more thunder to a very strong lineup. HE's just NOT A 3 HITTER. The 3 spot requires a bat that CONSISTENTLY makes contact with the ball, so to move runners over. That way the power bats can drive in runs with long fly balls, without the benefit of a hit.


There is no question the Sox have a couple of batters who would fill the 3 spot better than Thome. Ideally, it should be Konerko. The other is Pierzinski, yes, you read THAT right. AJ is an excellent contact hitter, way underestimated, and he strikes out at a 12% ratio, which is 1 every 8 at-bats. He has hit into 7 double plays all year, so he's not likely to foil a potentially big inning very often, a la Joe Crede or Brian Anderson. Thome will still be productive, only a little further down in the order. I contend that Thome would provide even more protection to the power hitters AHEAD of him, allowing them to see better pitches. Konerko and Dye would likely see their offensive numbers balloon even more, while at the same time facilitating a more dynamic component to the offense not predicated so much on the long ball to score runs.


Clearly the Sox's fortunes have less to do with Jim Thome's strikeouts than with garbage pitching, of course. But it would be refreshing to see the Sox return to a more fluid and dynamic offense, and not just scoring with the Homerun.

jabrch
08-06-2006, 11:23 AM
Clearly the Sox's fortunes have less to do with Jim Thome's strikeouts than with garbage pitching, of course. But it would be refreshing to see the Sox return to a more fluid and dynamic offense, and not just scoring with the Homerun.

In Thome's defense, he is hitting .298 with a .416 obp. It's not as if this is Reggie Jackson (.260/.350) or something like that. Thome still is a .280/.400 hitter on his career who is hitting .300 this season.

If I had to list the reasons why this team's "fortunes" are what they are (and for the record, that is virtually tied with the Yankees for the second best record in baseball - not too shabby, huh?) Jim Thome would clearly be on the good side of that ledger. For that matter, the only reason why our "fortunes" are what they are has little to do with us. The Tigers have been so tremendously hot that it has made our .600 ball look less than sufficient. If we could just end the season with a .600+ winning %, I'd take that in a heartbeat. 97 wins will win a playoff spot nearly every single season. I hope this one is included.

vafan
08-06-2006, 01:12 PM
Thome is the best option for the Sox in the 3 hole, for a variety of reasons, OBP, power, contact, etc, but... in terms of which players bat around him, Ozzie makes it difficult for opposing managers by dropping two dangerous righty bats behind Thome. Would you want to throw a loogy in the game against Thome, only to have to leave them in against PK/Dye or use up a guy for one batter?

The problem is, the other team gets to use the LOOGY for Pods/Iguchi/Thome, since the first two are pathetic against lefties and Thome is worse against the lefties than against righties.

This is one reason I would agree with the other poster that Dye should be hitting third in this lineup, with Thome 4th or 5th and Crede 6th. AJ should slide to 7th.

jabrch
08-06-2006, 02:16 PM
The problem is, the other team gets to use the LOOGY for Pods/Iguchi/Thome, since the first two are pathetic against lefties and Thome is worse against the lefties than against righties.

This is one reason I would agree with the other poster that Dye should be hitting third in this lineup, with Thome 4th or 5th and Crede 6th. AJ should slide to 7th.

I have no problem with Thome in the 3 spot, the 4 spot or the 5 spot. All could be debated. Heck - you want to make life hard on people, swap JD and Iguchi, and then Iguchi and AJ. I know JD isn't a #2 hitter in that you don't want him giving up many ABs, but that would put a lof of pressure on teams, and would make it the L/R/L/R/L/R thing. Tadahito hasn't been so great this year in the #2 role that he's a must start up there.

Either way - Ozzie clearly knows better than jabrch or vafan. I'm gonna go with his judgement.

pmck003
08-06-2006, 02:35 PM
Does anyone think that JD may have a more difficult time batting third? - due to pressure, being uncomfortable, etc?

DickAllen72
08-06-2006, 02:59 PM
Does anyone think that JD may have a more difficult time batting third? - due to pressure, being uncomfortable, etc?

Didn't hurt him last year during the stretch and in the post-season. :cool:

JB98
08-06-2006, 03:52 PM
IMO, the only think Thome is lacking to be a complete #3 hitter is regularly slapping the ball the other way and take the base hit when they are overshifting on him, and there are RISP. If he did that a bit more often, he'd drive his batting average up and look like more of a 3 hitter.

I think Jim does a good job of using the whole field. They showed a graphic on the broadcast today. He has 30 hits to left, 23 to center and 48 to right. Fifty-three total hits to left and center is solid for a man with his power. His batting average is right around .300. I'm satisfied with that.

Personally, I really like Thome as the #3 hitter. I want him batting in the first inning of every game. He sees a lot of pitches. He has a high OBP. He has tremendous power. He's excellent with RISP. Contrary to popular belief on this board, he hangs in there pretty well against LHP.

The only thing lacking in Jim's offensive game is speed. He is a game-breaking hitter, just like Frank was for all those years.

cgaudin
08-06-2006, 07:55 PM
I think Jim does a good job of using the whole field. They showed a graphic on the broadcast today. He has 30 hits to left, 23 to center and 48 to right. Fifty-three total hits to left and center is solid for a man with his power. His batting average is right around .300. I'm satisfied with that.

Personally, I really like Thome as the #3 hitter. I want him batting in the first inning of every game. He sees a lot of pitches. He has a high OBP. He has tremendous power. He's excellent with RISP. Contrary to popular belief on this board, he hangs in there pretty well against LHP.

The only thing lacking in Jim's offensive game is speed. He is a game-breaking hitter, just like Frank was for all those years.

With reasoning that your best hitters should have the most opportunities to bat, then clearly JD should hit second, followed by Thome, then Paulie, then AJ. This would give JD about 4% more at-bats over the whole year. But making a lineup that way would not likely yield maximum efficiency at run production, i.e., runs per number runners that get on base.

cgaudin
08-06-2006, 08:10 PM
Back to Jim Thome; he's a SLUGGER in every sense of the word. These guys are usually in the 4 or 5 hole. I'll give you that, of all the stats that matter for a 3 hitter, he covers all of them... but one, his strikeout ratio. That is HUGE! Aside from batting average being the MOST important, I believe that making contact (consistently) is perhaps right up there. Of course OBP (walks), slugging are crucial for a three hitter. If you look at the SUCCESSFUL 3 hitters playing now, you will notice the common thread that they strikeout very little in comparison with other POWER hitters. The anomalies, of course, are the hitters considered "CLUTCH", Big Papi, for example. The three hitter is just a "table setter" with a little thump. But he doesn't have to have power to be successful. These are the "better" 3 hitters in baseball with their carreer strikeout ratios and compare to Jim Thome.


Alfonso Soriano 21%
D. Ortiz 21%
Edgar Renteria 14%
Freddy Sanchez 8%
Joe Mauer 12%
Michael Young 16%
Miguel Tejada 13%
Vlad Guerrero 12%
Alex Rodriguez 19%
Vernon Wells 14%
Derek Lee 24%
Jim Thome 30%


My friend, it ain't even close. Of this list Derek Lee should be a cleanup hitter along with Ortiz and Thome. Ortiz strikes out 1 in 5 at bats, Guerrero 1 in 9, and Thome 1 in 3. That's absurd! Those are Adam Dunn numbers and nobody would dream of putting him in the 3 hole, for good reason. David Ortiz would likely strikeout even more if it wasn't for Manny watching his back. So he gets ALOT of good pitches to hit.


I won't argue that DESPITE the embarrassing strikeout ratio, Thome has managed to put up EXCELLENT numbers in all the stats that matter, even the one stat that's most telling of a good 3 hitter, and that is RUNS SCORED. He leads the team in that category and it should be Podsednik. HOWEVER, I have watched every single game this year, and although Brian Anderson has left his share, Thome has stranded the most runners on base, by far. That's not what bugs me. The clincher is that time and again, he has gone up to bat with less than two out and runners on first and / or second base. Had the ball been hit .... anywhere, he would likely advance the runner(s), only to see him swing mightily and hear the catcher's mitt pop on the 3rd strike. Other Sox hitters strike out, a lot just not to the extent that Thome does. Believe me, I think Dye whiffs quite a bit too, at the rate of 20% of the time, but it pales in comparison to Thome. Konerko strikes out 15% of the time, HALF as much as Thome. In reality, it should be Konerko before Thome, plain and simple. I understand Ozzie really likes the lefty, righty, lefty, righty thing, but MOST in this forum believe Thome needs to move down in the order. The only other White Sox player approaching that strikeout futility is Brian Anderson at a respectable 26% of the time............he's awesome!:redneck

Kittle'sNeighbor
08-07-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm glad someone started this thread. We were just talking the other day that a Dye - Thome - Konerko line up would be better. Dye makes sense in the 3 hole because he is faster, makes more contact and it puts the opposing team in a pickle in crunch time when you go Righty lefty righty vs, lefty righty righty. You can use up an extra pitcher late in the game.

The main reason to keep Thome in the 3 hole is because his OBP is @ .420 which is nearly 30 points higher than Dye's. [ who is second among starters ] Also I was unaware that Dye's slugging Pct. leads the league??


So who is gonna start the, "Why isn't Crede is the 6 spot thread?"

.

Kittle'sNeighbor
08-07-2006, 11:05 AM
Oh, and Vlad G. is my first choice for a 3 hitter edging out A-Rod.

If it's the 8th inning on however, I'll take Ortiz.

JB98
08-07-2006, 11:59 AM
With reasoning that your best hitters should have the most opportunities to bat, then clearly JD should hit second, followed by Thome, then Paulie, then AJ. This would give JD about 4% more at-bats over the whole year. But making a lineup that way would not likely yield maximum efficiency at run production, i.e., runs per number runners that get on base.

I didn't say that the best hitters should have the most opportunities to bat. I said I want Thome to have the opportunity to hit in the first inning of every game. Big difference.

JB98
08-07-2006, 12:19 PM
Back to Jim Thome; he's a SLUGGER in every sense of the word. These guys are usually in the 4 or 5 hole. I'll give you that, of all the stats that matter for a 3 hitter, he covers all of them... but one, his strikeout ratio. That is HUGE! Aside from batting average being the MOST important, I believe that making contact (consistently) is perhaps right up there. Of course OBP (walks), slugging are crucial for a three hitter. If you look at the SUCCESSFUL 3 hitters playing now, you will notice the common thread that they strikeout very little in comparison with other POWER hitters. The anomalies, of course, are the hitters considered "CLUTCH", Big Papi, for example. The three hitter is just a "table setter" with a little thump. But he doesn't have to have power to be successful. These are the "better" 3 hitters in baseball with their carreer strikeout ratios and compare to Jim Thome.


Alfonso Soriano 21%
D. Ortiz 21%
Edgar Renteria 14%
Freddy Sanchez 8%
Joe Mauer 12%
Michael Young 16%
Miguel Tejada 13%
Vlad Guerrero 12%
Alex Rodriguez 19%
Vernon Wells 14%
Derek Lee 24%
Jim Thome 30%


My friend, it ain't even close. Of this list Derek Lee should be a cleanup hitter along with Ortiz and Thome. Ortiz strikes out 1 in 5 at bats, Guerrero 1 in 9, and Thome 1 in 3. That's absurd! Those are Adam Dunn numbers and nobody would dream of putting him in the 3 hole, for good reason. David Ortiz would likely strikeout even more if it wasn't for Manny watching his back. So he gets ALOT of good pitches to hit.


I won't argue that DESPITE the embarrassing strikeout ratio, Thome has managed to put up EXCELLENT numbers in all the stats that matter, even the one stat that's most telling of a good 3 hitter, and that is RUNS SCORED. He leads the team in that category and it should be Podsednik. HOWEVER, I have watched every single game this year, and although Brian Anderson has left his share, Thome has stranded the most runners on base, by far. That's not what bugs me. The clincher is that time and again, he has gone up to bat with less than two out and runners on first and / or second base. Had the ball been hit .... anywhere, he would likely advance the runner(s), only to see him swing mightily and hear the catcher's mitt pop on the 3rd strike. Other Sox hitters strike out, a lot just not to the extent that Thome does. Believe me, I think Dye whiffs quite a bit too, at the rate of 20% of the time, but it pales in comparison to Thome. Konerko strikes out 15% of the time, HALF as much as Thome. In reality, it should be Konerko before Thome, plain and simple. I understand Ozzie really likes the lefty, righty, lefty, righty thing, but MOST in this forum believe Thome needs to move down in the order. The only other White Sox player approaching that strikeout futility is Brian Anderson at a respectable 26% of the time............he's awesome!:redneck

You like statistical analysis, huh? Well, analyze this: Jim Thome is batting .367 with RISP this season. That's quite a bit higher than his overall .301 average. With RISP, his OPS is 1.285. That's higher than his overall OPS of 1.050. That would suggest he's coming through in the clutch with some degree of frequency, no? Comparing him to Brian Anderson is a laughable waste of time.

Jim's batting average with RISP is the BEST on the team. He leads the club in runs scored and RBIs. Those are the most important statistics in determining whether a player is a good No. 3 hitter.

Most in this forum might believe that Thome needs to move down in the order. However, I've been posting here long enough to know that quite a few who post here are full of ****.

I don't care about the lefty, righty, lefty, righty stuff either. I believe your best hitter bats third. Jim Thome is our best hitter. Is he the greatest No. 3 hitter in the history of the game? No, but I'll take him.

nedlug
08-07-2006, 12:22 PM
I think that worrying about which of two (three, if you want to throw PK in there) great hitters deserves to be in the 3 hole is a great problem to have. Like I said before, I would hit Thome later, but either way, our 3-4-5'ers are going to be great.

cgaudin
08-07-2006, 03:14 PM
You like statistical analysis, huh? Well, analyze this: Jim Thome is batting .367 with RISP this season. That's quite a bit higher than his overall .301 average. With RISP, his OPS is 1.285. That's higher than his overall OPS of 1.050. That would suggest he's coming through in the clutch with some degree of frequency, no? Comparing him to Brian Anderson is a laughable waste of time.

Jim's batting average with RISP is the BEST on the team. He leads the club in runs scored and RBIs. Those are the most important statistics in determining whether a player is a good No. 3 hitter.

Most in this forum might believe that Thome needs to move down in the order. However, I've been posting here long enough to know that quite a few who post here are full of ****.

I don't care about the lefty, righty, lefty, righty stuff either. I believe your best hitter bats third. Jim Thome is our best hitter. Is he the greatest No. 3 hitter in the history of the game? No, but I'll take him.

You make it sound as if I'm Thome bashing. Perhaps I am. Thome is a Huge reason why the Sox have eclipsed their offensive output from last year already in only August. My contention is that the offense can be more fluid and dynamic having a bat in the two AND three spot that gives Ozzie a high degree of confidence that the batter will put the ball in play. Clearly Gooch is not that guy and neither is Thome. It is noteworthy to point out that these two hitters lead the team in strikeouts. Instead of putting the blame on Gooch and Thome, everyone wants to run Podsednik outta town 'cause he's not "producing" like last year. Pods is only 5 points below his OBP from last year. He just hasn't stolen bases this year. The reason Pods is NOT leading the team in runs scored is attributed partly because he hasn't been as aggressive on the base paths, but also because Gooch and Thome have whiffed at the rate of 22% and 30% respectively, only to have Konerko or Dye put the ball in play for an out. This has set the offensive tempo of this team as a POWER team and no longer a "small ball" team. That's the trade-off or "transformation" the offense has undergone. Pods did not run as much this year probably BY DESIGN, to give the power bats the opportunity to drive him in, as opposed to moving him along. It has seemed to work well, at times, and the offensive production overall for the year has set the standard in both leagues. HOWEVER, if you are looking for the Sox to drive in runs in the manner they did last year, then clearly the Sox are not having the same success, partly Podsednik's fault, but I blame Gooch and Thome more for that lack of execution.

cgaudin
08-07-2006, 04:45 PM
Just to make a tiny statistical comparison, it is clear that Boston's David Ortiz leads the league in almost every offensive power category. Ortiz has a lower batting average than Thome by .22 points. Their slugging is identical at .630, and OBP is 24 points higher for Jim Thome. Yet Big Papi has 109 RBI's in comparison to Thome's 83. That's a 26 run difference, despite Thome being on base more than Ortiz.

I contend that the White Sox can do better to provide Thome and Konerko EVEN MORE RBI opportunities with a slight tweaking of the lineup. Boston's lead-off hitters, Youkilis and Crisp have not done that much better than Podsednik leading off, i.e., getting on base. The clear difference maker has been Mark Loretta. He has set the table perfectly for Ortiz. Loretta has less RBI's than Gooch and their OBP's are only 13 points difference. The big difference, IMO, is that Loretta has a strikeout ratio of 10% compared to Gooch's 22%. Gooch is more than twice as likely to strikeout than Loretta. This gives the manager a whole lot more confidence and flexibility to have more options available on the base paths. Mark Loretta's ability to consistently put the ball in play and move runners over is the reason Big Papi is having the year he's having (that and Manny hitting behind helps him too, of course).

Gooch needs to be moved down in the order. The only logical choice would be AJ (high bat ave., strikes out very little at 12% ratio). JD strikes out way too much also to put in the two slot. Thome needs to go to 4th or 5th. This will also give Thome more opportunities to bat with men on base, more RBI opportunity and cutting down on the "defensive shift" they put for him, which increases his odds to hit even more.

The lineup would be altered to reflect more a "contact" offense while retaining the power bats just one notch lower in the order. This makes the offense better able to pull through in games which won't feature the long ball. That will be crucial during this stretch....anything to get a few more runs, since the pitching ain't coming around.

daveeym
08-07-2006, 04:56 PM
cgaudin has some hangar like tendancies. Just thought I'd point that out. :cool:

JB98
08-07-2006, 05:12 PM
You make it sound as if I'm Thome bashing. Perhaps I am. Thome is a Huge reason why the Sox have eclipsed their offensive output from last year already in only August. My contention is that the offense can be more fluid and dynamic having a bat in the two AND three spot that gives Ozzie a high degree of confidence that the batter will put the ball in play. Clearly Gooch is not that guy and neither is Thome. It is noteworthy to point out that these two hitters lead the team in strikeouts. Instead of putting the blame on Gooch and Thome, everyone wants to run Podsednik outta town 'cause he's not "producing" like last year. Pods is only 5 points below his OBP from last year. He just hasn't stolen bases this year. The reason Pods is NOT leading the team in runs scored is attributed partly because he hasn't been as aggressive on the base paths, but also because Gooch and Thome have whiffed at the rate of 22% and 30% respectively, only to have Konerko or Dye put the ball in play for an out. This has set the offensive tempo of this team as a POWER team and no longer a "small ball" team. That's the trade-off or "transformation" the offense has undergone. Pods did not run as much this year probably BY DESIGN, to give the power bats the opportunity to drive him in, as opposed to moving him along. It has seemed to work well, at times, and the offensive production overall for the year has set the standard in both leagues. HOWEVER, if you are looking for the Sox to drive in runs in the manner they did last year, then clearly the Sox are not having the same success, partly Podsednik's fault, but I blame Gooch and Thome more for that lack of execution.

I'm perfectly content with our offensive style. We're scoring more than enough runs. This offense is plenty strong for us to repeat as World Series champions. I couldn't be more happy with our offensive production. Apparently, you're not so happy with it. Fine. Your entitled to disagree.

But I'm standing firm: The pitching staff is the reason for our recent woes. If that turns around, we'll win the whole thing. If it doesn't, we'll miss the playoffs. Again, we rank in the top three of the AL in runs scored, home runs, team batting average and batting average with RISP. Yet we're fighting for our lives. It all comes back to the pitching. I have no worries about offense.

JB98
08-07-2006, 05:13 PM
cgaudin has some hangar like tendancies. Just thought I'd point that out. :cool:

LOL. You're right. Hadn't thought of that previously. :cool:

cgaudin
08-07-2006, 05:29 PM
LOL. You're right. Hadn't thought of that previously. :cool:

I guess I'm not succint enough for you smart guys.

DickAllen72
08-07-2006, 05:33 PM
I guess I'm not succint enough for you smart guys.

For whatever it's worth, I think you've made some excellent posts in your short time here so far.

cgaudin
08-07-2006, 05:59 PM
For whatever it's worth, I think you've made some excellent posts in your short time here so far.

I admit that sometimes I get worked up and babble endlessly.

cgaudin
08-07-2006, 06:28 PM
Jim's batting average with RISP is the BEST on the team. He leads the club in runs scored and RBIs. Those are the most important statistics in determining whether a player is a good No. 3 hitter.

Most in this forum might believe that Thome needs to move down in the order. However, I've been posting here long enough to know that quite a few who post here are full of ****.



I feel a rant coming.......


I don't know how old you are, and my intent is not to offend you. But I suspect you've only been watching baseball less than 20 years. So if that's the case then you probably don't know better and I forgive your ignorance. Do you even know the definition of a 3 hitter? Let's see...who were the most effective 3 hitters in baseball?



The quintessential 3 hitter in baseball of all-time was arguably Roberto Clemente. Clemente was a masterful bat handler who, first and foremost PUT THE BALL IN PLAY. He struck out once every 13 at-bats and he had the highest OBP in the team and slugging percentage. He had just enough power to be feared, but was not considered a homerun hitter. Most important, he UNDERSTOOD his role perfectly, and often sacrificed stats like average and homeruns for the good of the ballclub. He KNEW that his job was to MOVE runners into SCORING POSITION whenever there was less than 2 out. He set the table for the following POWER hitters, just as he should. Clemente was so effective at the 3 spot that all of baseball followed suit for the next 25 to 28 years, inserting players who most closely matched his standard.



I can name you plenty of EFFECTIVE 3 hitters; Rod Carew, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and to a lesser extent Lou Gehrig, Don Mattingly. Of all these, only Aaron and Williams were bonafide POWER HITTERS as well as CONTACT HITTERS. Actually, I forgot that a guy named Ruth was also a 3 hitter...my bad. It was only in the early 90's when the new thinking (and ready availability of such players) that managers started using more "free-swinging" hitters, sacrificing ball contact for more homeruns and RBIs. The last 15 or so years have been marked by the 3 hole being occupied by the team's MOST POWERFUL hitter, NOT necessarily the team's BEST HITTER, a definition slightly different from years past. Americans love the homerun. That's what baseball post 1993 has been selling.



Read up on some baseball history before you lecture me on the nuances of baseball. By the way, to keep the rambling relevant, Jim Thome is a VERY GOOD, productive hitter. He belongs in the 4, 5 , or 6 hole...not 3rd in the lineup. Your best 3 hitters today are Albert Pujols(STL), A-Rod (NY), Vernon Wells(TOR), Michael Young(TEX), Joe Mauer(MIN), just to name a few. Take a look at these guys' numbers. All have high batting averages, OBP, and slugging. Oh, and just for fun, look at their strikeout ratios. I consider Thome as just another Adam Dunn, or Sammy Sosa, or Reggie Jackson. They were all thrilling thumpers with sick video-game power, but it was feast or famine. If it wasn't out of the ballpark, the ball was in the catcher's glove. Just look up Thome's career numbers. In 6,258 at-bats Thome has struck out a measly 1,865 times. That's a generous 29.8% of the time. Clemente by comparison, struck out 12% of the time. Yep, Thome's an AWESOME 3 hitter, alright. You might be right in saying he's an awesome POWER hitter. So you would take a guy who has an almost 1 in 3 chance of not even touching the ball when he should at least hit it, somewhere...anywhere, even if for an out? How do you find that PRODUCTIVE? Kid, don't let sexy stats like Homeruns and RBI's blind you from what a truly PRODUCTIVE hitter should be.

cgaudin
08-11-2006, 12:21 AM
Unfortunately, this season's fortunes are predicated mostly on what Thome does in the 3 spot. Someone noted in this post that Thome is a notoriously streaky hitter. He may carry the offensive load almost by himself at times. Then, other times he whiffs at the ball with alarmingly frequent futility. Even though he has been a very productive DH, as his offensive numbers indicate, Thome will need to do a better job at moving runners along the bases better, if the Sox are to have a consistent offense they can count on during the stretch.

CLR01
08-11-2006, 12:24 AM
Unfortunately, this season's fortunes are predicated mostly on what Thome does in the 3 spot. Someone noted in this post that Thome is a notoriously streaky hitter. He may carry the offensive load almost by himself at times. Then, other times he whiffs at the ball with alarmingly frequent futility. Even though he has been a very productive DH, as his offensive numbers indicate, Thome will need to do a better job at moving runners along the bases better, if the Sox are to have a consistent offense they can count on during the stretch.


As will Pods, Iguchi, Konerko, Dye, Crede, Peirzynski, Uribe and Anderson. This will not be won or lost on the offense of one man it will be a team effort. For the record Konerko is just as streaky.

cgaudin
08-11-2006, 12:40 AM
As will Pods, Iguchi, Konerko, Dye, Crede, Peirzynski, Uribe and Anderson. This will not be won or lost on the offense of one man it will be a team effort. For the record Konerko is just as streaky.

I concur that the Sox need the other bats in the order, naturally. But Thome will be the difference maker. If you haven't noticed, he's done nothing in a week, other than the homerun 2 days ago. Grounding to second 3 times a game ain't going to cut the mustard!

CLR01
08-11-2006, 12:49 AM
I concur that the Sox need the other bats in the order, naturally. But Thome will be the difference maker. If you haven't noticed, he's done nothing in a week, other than the homerun 2 days ago. Grounding to second 3 times a game ain't going to cut the mustard!


Yet the Sox are still winning. He is allowed to go into a funk from time to time. He'll pull out of it.

JB98
08-11-2006, 01:26 AM
I feel a rant coming.......


I don't know how old you are, and my intent is not to offend you. But I suspect you've only been watching baseball less than 20 years. So if that's the case then you probably don't know better and I forgive your ignorance. Do you even know the definition of a 3 hitter? Let's see...who were the most effective 3 hitters in baseball?



The quintessential 3 hitter in baseball of all-time was arguably Roberto Clemente. Clemente was a masterful bat handler who, first and foremost PUT THE BALL IN PLAY. He struck out once every 13 at-bats and he had the highest OBP in the team and slugging percentage. He had just enough power to be feared, but was not considered a homerun hitter. Most important, he UNDERSTOOD his role perfectly, and often sacrificed stats like average and homeruns for the good of the ballclub. He KNEW that his job was to MOVE runners into SCORING POSITION whenever there was less than 2 out. He set the table for the following POWER hitters, just as he should. Clemente was so effective at the 3 spot that all of baseball followed suit for the next 25 to 28 years, inserting players who most closely matched his standard.



I can name you plenty of EFFECTIVE 3 hitters; Rod Carew, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and to a lesser extent Lou Gehrig, Don Mattingly. Of all these, only Aaron and Williams were bonafide POWER HITTERS as well as CONTACT HITTERS. Actually, I forgot that a guy named Ruth was also a 3 hitter...my bad. It was only in the early 90's when the new thinking (and ready availability of such players) that managers started using more "free-swinging" hitters, sacrificing ball contact for more homeruns and RBIs. The last 15 or so years have been marked by the 3 hole being occupied by the team's MOST POWERFUL hitter, NOT necessarily the team's BEST HITTER, a definition slightly different from years past. Americans love the homerun. That's what baseball post 1993 has been selling.



Read up on some baseball history before you lecture me on the nuances of baseball. By the way, to keep the rambling relevant, Jim Thome is a VERY GOOD, productive hitter. He belongs in the 4, 5 , or 6 hole...not 3rd in the lineup. Your best 3 hitters today are Albert Pujols(STL), A-Rod (NY), Vernon Wells(TOR), Michael Young(TEX), Joe Mauer(MIN), just to name a few. Take a look at these guys' numbers. All have high batting averages, OBP, and slugging. Oh, and just for fun, look at their strikeout ratios. I consider Thome as just another Adam Dunn, or Sammy Sosa, or Reggie Jackson. They were all thrilling thumpers with sick video-game power, but it was feast or famine. If it wasn't out of the ballpark, the ball was in the catcher's glove. Just look up Thome's career numbers. In 6,258 at-bats Thome has struck out a measly 1,865 times. That's a generous 29.8% of the time. Clemente by comparison, struck out 12% of the time. Yep, Thome's an AWESOME 3 hitter, alright. You might be right in saying he's an awesome POWER hitter. So you would take a guy who has an almost 1 in 3 chance of not even touching the ball when he should at least hit it, somewhere...anywhere, even if for an out? How do you find that PRODUCTIVE? Kid, don't let sexy stats like Homeruns and RBI's blind you from what a truly PRODUCTIVE hitter should be.

I've been a Sox fan for 25 years. I'm not a kid, and I'm a long-time poster here. You're a noob. Don't talk down to me. Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs batted second for a lot of their careers. Clemente, Ruth and Williams are all dead. They don't play for the 2006 Sox. Good grief. The name of the game is run production. Scoring runs and driving in runs. Thome is the best on the team in that department. That's why he is batting third on the 2006 Sox. I didn't nominate him as the greatest No. 3 hitter of all time. I said he is a good No. 3 hitter. That is all.

I don't care about strikeouts, so don't bother with another lengthy rant filled with percentages. Those numbers are of no interest to me.

cgaudin
08-11-2006, 08:35 AM
I've been a Sox fan for 25 years. I'm not a kid, and I'm a long-time poster here. You're a noob. Don't talk down to me. Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs batted second for a lot of their careers. Clemente, Ruth and Williams are all dead. They don't play for the 2006 Sox. Good grief. The name of the game is run production. Scoring runs and driving in runs. Thome is the best on the team in that department. That's why he is batting third on the 2006 Sox. I didn't nominate him as the greatest No. 3 hitter of all time. I said he is a good No. 3 hitter. That is all.

I don't care about strikeouts, so don't bother with another lengthy rant filled with percentages. Those numbers are of no interest to me.

I'm happy for you that you're a White Sox fan. At least you got that going for you. My only contention is that you don't put a 30% strikeout ratio hitter in the 3 spot. Naturally his runs and RBI's will likely be among the leaders since production is high by default in the 3 spot. No argument that he has been productive and a great addition to the lineup, but I think the offense would be more dynamic and less dependent on the long ball if Thome hit a spot or two down the order.

Sox-o-matic
08-11-2006, 08:48 AM
IMO, the perfect three hitter is someone who can get on base, drive in runs, has power, is known for coming thorugh in the clutch, make contact, work a count deep, and can run a bit.

To me, Jermaine Dye has been the closest thing to a perfect #3 hitter that I've ever personally seen here. Joe Crede would also be a good option for a 3 hitter in the future IMO.

Thome is very, very scary in the box and bats lefty so that's why I think Ozzie puts him there, plus he wants all that OBP in front of Konerko and Dye. But if it were me, the 3-4-5-6 would be Dye-Konerko-Thome-Crede. I don't think Jim makes contact enough to hit 3rd.

cgaudin
08-11-2006, 10:46 AM
IMO, the perfect three hitter is someone who can get on base, drive in runs, has power, is known for coming thorugh in the clutch, make contact, work a count deep, and can run a bit.

To me, Jermaine Dye has been the closest thing to a perfect #3 hitter that I've ever personally seen here. Joe Crede would also be a good option for a 3 hitter in the future IMO.

Thome is very, very scary in the box and bats lefty so that's why I think Ozzie puts him there, plus he wants all that OBP in front of Konerko and Dye. But if it were me, the 3-4-5-6 would be Dye-Konerko-Thome-Crede. I don't think Jim makes contact enough to hit 3rd.

Sounds better than the current lineup, for sure.

JB98
08-11-2006, 12:00 PM
I'm happy for you that you're a White Sox fan. At least you got that going for you. My only contention is that you don't put a 30% strikeout ratio hitter in the 3 spot. Naturally his runs and RBI's will likely be among the leaders since production is high by default in the 3 spot. No argument that he has been productive and a great addition to the lineup, but I think the offense would be more dynamic and less dependent on the long ball if Thome hit a spot or two down the order.

And I completely disagree. Thome isn't striking out that much in clutch situations. Dye strikes out a lot too, and he's the only other viable candidate for the No. 3 spot. And we have a great offense. There's no reason to tinker with this lineup. Dye is having a career year batting fifth. Why take him out of his comfort zone? My theory is pitchers tend to exhale after they face Thome and Konerko, and they are making a lot more mistakes to Dye. Jermaine is capitalizing, and he is on pace to dwarf his previous best season.

Look, if Tony Gwynn were on this team, I'd say put him in the No. 3 spot. But he isn't here. We have to go with what we have. IMO, what we have is pretty good. Other than a brief hiccup in July, the offense has been consistent.

soxwon
08-11-2006, 10:08 PM
thank you for the DH or else thome and his ilk would be retired.

bigsqwert
08-11-2006, 10:44 PM
thank you for the DH or else thome and his ilk would be retired.WhiteSoxWilkes will never retire!

Save McCuddy's
08-12-2006, 11:30 AM
I feel a rant coming.......


I don't know how old you are, and my intent is not to offend you. But I suspect you've only been watching baseball less than 20 years. So if that's the case then you probably don't know better and I forgive your ignorance. Do you even know the definition of a 3 hitter? Let's see...who were the most effective 3 hitters in baseball?



The quintessential 3 hitter in baseball of all-time was arguably Roberto Clemente. Clemente was a masterful bat handler who, first and foremost PUT THE BALL IN PLAY. He struck out once every 13 at-bats and he had the highest OBP in the team and slugging percentage. He had just enough power to be feared, but was not considered a homerun hitter. Most important, he UNDERSTOOD his role perfectly, and often sacrificed stats like average and homeruns for the good of the ballclub. He KNEW that his job was to MOVE runners into SCORING POSITION whenever there was less than 2 out. He set the table for the following POWER hitters, just as he should. Clemente was so effective at the 3 spot that all of baseball followed suit for the next 25 to 28 years, inserting players who most closely matched his standard.



I can name you plenty of EFFECTIVE 3 hitters; Rod Carew, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and to a lesser extent Lou Gehrig, Don Mattingly. Of all these, only Aaron and Williams were bonafide POWER HITTERS as well as CONTACT HITTERS. Actually, I forgot that a guy named Ruth was also a 3 hitter...my bad. It was only in the early 90's when the new thinking (and ready availability of such players) that managers started using more "free-swinging" hitters, sacrificing ball contact for more homeruns and RBIs. The last 15 or so years have been marked by the 3 hole being occupied by the team's MOST POWERFUL hitter, NOT necessarily the team's BEST HITTER, a definition slightly different from years past. Americans love the homerun. That's what baseball post 1993 has been selling.

Please find another board to pretend you have some idea of what baseball is all about.

For openers: Not sure how old you are, but you probably didn't catch much American league baseball in the 20's and 30's. Babe Ruth batted third and is clearly the greatest hitter in the history of the game -- which would make him the gold standard for 3 hitters as well. Gehrig, until Ruth's departure, hit cleanup but would have found himself somewhere in the top 10 all-time 3 hitters himself I'm sure.

No disrespect to Clemente, but high contact rate is not the number 1 quality for a 3 hitter to possess. With runners on base, contact in the air to the outfield is most preferrable. Clemente twice led baseball in double play groundouts and is 14th all time. Somehow despite your contentions about his incredible strike out %, he was top ten in both k's and dbl. play balls in '67. Additionally, he slugged less than .500 and had a respectable but hardly impressive .356 OBP for his career.

You are correct that the three hole should be home to the team's best hitter. You lose me however in your crusade against the home run. Best hitter and most productive hitter are married terms. More often than not, the player with the most home runs is the most productive hitter. A 3 hitter's job is not to "move runners into scoring position". His job is to drive them in. None of the high average hitters you list: Carew, Boggs, Gwynn or Rose batted third for any significant portions of their careers. I'm quite certain that Carew never did and fairly sure that Rose didn't either.

You mention that only Williams and Aaron of your select group were bona fide power hitters, yet DiMaggio and Hornsby are not? Rajah was in the top ten in HR's every year from '17 to '31 and slugged .577 over his career. Joe D was top 6 in HR's 11 times despite the legendary difficulty for right handed power hitters in Yankee Stadium.

I've already forgotten why I'm addressing these issues. Oh yah, Thome. Thome is our best hitter. Dye may be having the best offensive season on the team, but Jim's the 3 man and I'm sticking to that.

cgaudin
08-12-2006, 02:44 PM
Please find another board to pretend you have some idea of what baseball is all about.

For openers: Not sure how old you are, but you probably didn't catch much American league baseball in the 20's and 30's. Babe Ruth batted third and is clearly the greatest hitter in the history of the game -- which would make him the gold standard for 3 hitters as well. Gehrig, until Ruth's departure, hit cleanup but would have found himself somewhere in the top 10 all-time 3 hitters himself I'm sure.

No disrespect to Clemente, but high contact rate is not the number 1 quality for a 3 hitter to possess. With runners on base, contact in the air to the outfield is most preferrable. Clemente twice led baseball in double play groundouts and is 14th all time. Somehow despite your contentions about his incredible strike out %, he was top ten in both k's and dbl. play balls in '67. Additionally, he slugged less than .500 and had a respectable but hardly impressive .356 OBP for his career.

You are correct that the three hole should be home to the team's best hitter. You lose me however in your crusade against the home run. Best hitter and most productive hitter are married terms. More often than not, the player with the most home runs is the most productive hitter. A 3 hitter's job is not to "move runners into scoring position". His job is to drive them in. None of the high average hitters you list: Carew, Boggs, Gwynn or Rose batted third for any significant portions of their careers. I'm quite certain that Carew never did and fairly sure that Rose didn't either.

You mention that only Williams and Aaron of your select group were bona fide power hitters, yet DiMaggio and Hornsby are not? Rajah was in the top ten in HR's every year from '17 to '31 and slugged .577 over his career. Joe D was top 6 in HR's 11 times despite the legendary difficulty for right handed power hitters in Yankee Stadium.

I've already forgotten why I'm addressing these issues. Oh yah, Thome. Thome is our best hitter. Dye may be having the best offensive season on the team, but Jim's the 3 man and I'm sticking to that.
First of all, Im impressed with the stat data to back up your mumbling. Good job. I did make a mistake in mentioning all those hitters before 1960 since the game changed dramatically thereafter. Most of us here in the U.S. are way too enamored with the homerun to see the value of a true 3 hitter. We will continue to get our asses kicked internationally because of bonehead thinking baseball managers who think as you do. It turns out that there are still teams in MLB with excellent 3 hitters who arent necessarily homerun hitters; Michael Young, Joe Mauer, Nomar Garciaparra. Granted most teams have at the 3 spot the hitter with the best combination of power, batting average, and OBP. No one, however, no one in baseball has a hitter in the 3 spot who strikes out at a 30% clip. The closest one plays for the Cubs in the northside with a stout 24%. All other power hitters with high strikeout ratios hit in the 4 and 5 slot just as they should.

P.S. Lighten up smart guy. We all have the chance to voice opinions without getting chased out of message boards by tough guys like you. Not everyone is son of Einstein as yourself.

FarWestChicago
08-12-2006, 02:54 PM
Most of us here in the U.S. are way too enamored with the homerun to see the value of a true 3 hitter. We will continue to get our asses kicked internationally because of bonehead thinking baseball managers who think as you do.:?: What the hell are you talking about? Since when is the US getting their ass kicked internationally in baseball? The World Cup was soccer. :redneck

CLR01
08-12-2006, 02:57 PM
:?: What the hell are you talking about? Since when is the US getting their ass kicked internationally in baseball? The World Cup was soccer. :redneck


How dare you question him.

cgaudin
08-12-2006, 02:58 PM
:?: What the hell are you talking about? Since when is the US getting their ass kicked internationally in baseball? The World Cup was soccer. :redneck

We didn't even make the finals in WBC. Maybe you don't remember.........oh, yeah, Japan beat Cuba.

CLR01
08-12-2006, 02:59 PM
We didn't even make the finals in WBC. Maybe you don't remember.........oh, yeah, Japan beat Cuba.


We should care about who wins the WBC?

cgaudin
08-12-2006, 03:08 PM
We should care about who wins the WBC?

Maybe you don't, but I bleed RED, WHITE, and BLUE, and I cherish every opportunity we get to rub the noses of everyone else out there in those Banana Republics and the rest of the world. I don't like us getting whipped in a game WE invented.

FarWestChicago
08-12-2006, 03:09 PM
We didn't even make the finals in WBC. Maybe you don't remember.........oh, yeah, Japan beat Cuba.:roflmao:

You can not be serious!

:rolling:

cgaudin
08-12-2006, 03:14 PM
:roflmao:

You can not be serious!

:rolling:

I'm happy to amuse you....Anyway back to our strikeout extraordinaire 3 hitter, he's awesome.

Save McCuddy's
08-13-2006, 10:22 AM
First of all, Im impressed with the stat data to back up your mumbling. Good job. I did make a mistake in mentioning all those hitters before 1960 since the game changed dramatically thereafter. Most of us here in the U.S. are way too enamored with the homerun to see the value of a true 3 hitter. We will continue to get our asses kicked internationally because of bonehead thinking baseball managers who think as you do. It turns out that there are still teams in MLB with excellent 3 hitters who arent necessarily homerun hitters; Michael Young, Joe Mauer, Nomar Garciaparra. Granted most teams have at the 3 spot the hitter with the best combination of power, batting average, and OBP. No one, however, no one in baseball has a hitter in the 3 spot who strikes out at a 30% clip. The closest one plays for the Cubs in the northside with a stout 24%. All other power hitters with high strikeout ratios hit in the 4 and 5 slot just as they should.

P.S. Lighten up smart guy. We all have the chance to voice opinions without getting chased out of message boards by tough guys like you. Not everyone is son of Einstein as yourself.

Number 1, I didn't mumble. Number 2, "getting our ass kicked internationally"? I don't recall the last USA baseball game that was lost because Jim Thome struck out too much in the three hole.

Everyone has a chance to voice opinions. Where the rub comes in is the defence of those opinions. If you want to launch a tirade in support of supplanting Jim Thome as our three hitter, please come up with better rationale than Roberto Clemente outranking Babe Ruth in the pantheon of all-time 3 hitters.

Additionally, your postulate that the job of the three hitter is to move runners into scoring position with less than two outs should have sounded inane as you typed it. I'm certain that you won't find much collaboration for that point outside of the Mark Grace fan club.

Finally, Michael Young? Something particularily romantic to you about that .450 SLG %? I'd love to have Young at short, but even if we got him straight up for Uribe tomorrow he wouldn't be hitting 3 anytime while Thome, Paully, Dye or Crede was still on this team. Mauer would hit two for us. Garciaparra's hitting three because that team has no other options.

In summation: The three hole, in my opinion, is occupied by your team's best hitter. I equate that with most productive hitter. The only fruit for argument I see in this post is whether the team would be better suited with Paully or Dye in the 3 than Thome. That is indeed an intriguing question -- one that has very little to do with Thome striking out 111 times in 371 AB's. And most certainly less to do with whoever anyone else has in their three hole.

cgaudin
08-13-2006, 11:44 AM
Number 1, I didn't mumble. Number 2, "getting our ass kicked internationally"? I don't recall the last USA baseball game that was lost because Jim Thome struck out too much in the three hole.

Everyone has a chance to voice opinions. Where the rub comes in is the defence of those opinions. If you want to launch a tirade in support of supplanting Jim Thome as our three hitter, please come up with better rationale than Roberto Clemente outranking Babe Ruth in the pantheon of all-time 3 hitters.

Additionally, your postulate that the job of the three hitter is to move runners into scoring position with less than two outs should have sounded inane as you typed it. I'm certain that you won't find much collaboration for that point outside of the Mark Grace fan club.

Finally, Michael Young? Something particularily romantic to you about that .450 SLG %? I'd love to have Young at short, but even if we got him straight up for Uribe tomorrow he wouldn't be hitting 3 anytime while Thome, Paully, Dye or Crede was still on this team. Mauer would hit two for us. Garciaparra's hitting three because that team has no other options.

In summation: The three hole, in my opinion, is occupied by your team's best hitter. I equate that with most productive hitter. The only fruit for argument I see in this post is whether the team would be better suited with Paully or Dye in the 3 than Thome. That is indeed an intriguing question -- one that has very little to do with Thome striking out 111 times in 371 AB's. And most certainly less to do with whoever anyone else has in their three hole.
Somehow I get the notion you made the inference that I mentioned Thome is a bad hitter. Nowhere in this post was that statement made. Try not to be so insulting. I'm of the opinion that Thome is largely responsible for the dramatically increased run production this year. But he is not the only one. I'm even willing to imply that other hitters are having career years because of the influence Thome facilitates the middle of the lineup. That's a HUGE reach but I will consider it as such. My contention all along has been the STYLE or TEMPO the offense has exibited BECAUSE of Thome's influence on the top of the lineup. This has become a long ball offense with little resilience to "switching" to a more conventional, less power-oriented lineup. This offense has struggled most of the year whenever there is a drop in homerun production, not to say they haven't scored runs (they lead the league with 5.7 rpg), but runs are difficult to come by if not via the long ball. With Jim Thome striking out at the rate he does, coupled with the well-known fact Pods and Gooch are not being moved effectively along the bases (whether incidentally or by design), they have curtailed the top of the offense from scoring more runs. Most in this forum blame Podsednik instead of realizing that Ozzie wants to maximize runners on the bases for the big horses to drive them in. I just think that Thome's strikeout ratio does not help improve that facet of the offense.....I don't know of any other 3 hitter that approaches Thome's strikeout numbers. If you can give me a few names, I'll be happy to see your point of view favorably.

Ozzie is a major league manager, while I'm sitting on the couch with the luxury of questioning and second-guessing how he assembles a lineup. Clearly, he sees the value of hitting Thome in the 3 spot. What puzzles me is that he openly complains about his lineup not being able to score runs in the manner they did last year, a la "Ozzie ball", whatever. The answer is right in front of him, and a big part of that answer is Jim Thome striking out hitting 3rd in the lineup. Which do you choose scoring the most runs per game you can (at a 5.7 clip), or having a more fluid, dynamic offense that WILL put runs on the board on a more consistent basis, but not as powerful. The formula has worked fairly well so far. If the pitching had been a bit better than it has been, the offense would be a moot point.

FarWestChicago
08-13-2006, 12:19 PM
Try not to be so insulting.You should heed your own advice.

cgaudin
08-13-2006, 04:49 PM
You should heed your own advice.

If YOU were insulted, my bad. I'm not here to berate folks, as you have with your pithy humor, just to voice my opinion.

TornLabrum
08-13-2006, 04:51 PM
If YOU were insulted, my bad. I'm not here to berate folks, as you have with your pithy humor, just to voice my opinion.

But the difference is that he runs this message board and you don't. So I'd advise you to tread VERY easily right now.

jabrch
08-13-2006, 04:57 PM
If YOU were insulted, my bad. I'm not here to berate folks, as you have with your pithy humor, just to voice my opinion.

Uh-Oh...

Daver
08-13-2006, 05:06 PM
But the difference is that he runs this message board and you don't. So I'd advise you to tread VERY easily right now.

He also owns it.

TornLabrum
08-13-2006, 05:11 PM
He also owns it.

Yup. Owner/Operator.

cgaudin
08-13-2006, 05:40 PM
Yup. Owner/Operator.

Listen, CHIEF, if you're gonna flex your muscle cause you "feel" someone hurt your feelings, be my guest. I'm just voicing opinions, not talking down to anyone. Do what you need to do, but don't threaten to shut me out. If I'm not up to your "standards", tough beans! YOU have all the POWER. I MUST BOW to YOU! Gimme a break! If you're gonna run this forum Gestapo style, say it up front. I'll play along.

FarWestChicago
08-13-2006, 05:43 PM
I'm not here to berate folks, as you have with your pithy humor, just to voice my opinion.You have been regularly insulting other posters. You are one of the two worst know-it-alls on this site, yet you cry about other people being "son of Einstein". Develop some self awareness if you can spare an iota of the brain power you expend on baseball. :rolleyes:

FarWestChicago
08-13-2006, 05:44 PM
Listen, CHIEF, if you're gonna flex your muscle cause you "feel" someone hurt your feelings, be my guest. I'm just voicing opinions, not talking down to anyone. Do what you need to do, but don't threaten to shut me out. If I'm not up to your "standards", tough beans! YOU have all the POWER. I MUST BOW to YOU! Gimme a break! If you're gonna run this forum Gestapo style, say it up front. I'll play along.OK, you are gone, idiot.

TornLabrum
08-13-2006, 05:52 PM
Damn, you try to give some friendly advice...

And just short of 100 posts, too.

FarWestChicago
08-13-2006, 05:56 PM
Damn, you try to give some friendly advice...

An just short of 100 posts, too.Well, the guy was ridiculous, a real Mr. Pot Kettle Black.

Ol' No. 2
08-13-2006, 06:43 PM
Damn. This thread started out really stupid so I've been ignoring it. Who knew it would get so entertaining?

TornLabrum
08-13-2006, 07:31 PM
Damn. This thread started out really stupid so I've been ignoring it. Who knew it would get so entertaining?

My rule of thumb is this: If the thread starts stupid, then the starter of the thread bears watching. The entertainment possibilities are nearly infinite.

cbotnyse
08-13-2006, 07:46 PM
Listen, CHIEF, if you're gonna flex your muscle cause you "feel" someone hurt your feelings, be my guest. I'm just voicing opinions, not talking down to anyone. Do what you need to do, but don't threaten to shut me out. If I'm not up to your "standards", tough beans! YOU have all the POWER. I MUST BOW to YOU! Gimme a break! If you're gonna run this forum Gestapo style, say it up front. I'll play along.At least he didn't rant on about this being America and play the First Amendment / freedom of speech card.

And did he actually use the phase, "tough beans" ?

Daver
08-13-2006, 08:18 PM
At least he didn't rant on about this being America and play the First Amendment / freedom of speech card.

And did he actually use the phase, "tough beans" ?

He also sent me an e-mail bitching about getting banned, and about the mods being Nazi's.

FarWestChicago
08-13-2006, 08:20 PM
He also sent me an e-mail bitching about getting banned, and about the mods being Nazi's.All I did was point out he was quite guilty of the behavior he was attributing to others. Then he just went nuts. Whaddyagonnado?

TornLabrum
08-13-2006, 08:23 PM
All I did was point out he was quite guilty of the behavior he was attributing to others. Then he just went nuts. Whaddyagonnado?

I take the responsibility for his going nuts. I reminded him that he was insulting the guy who just runs this place and said he should be very careful. Some people just don't like to be warned to behave. From now on I shoot first and warn later.

Tragg
08-13-2006, 08:43 PM
He actually had some interesting things to say, amidst the silly stuff, insults and tough guy act. Someobody who actually gives a hoot about WBC...that's bizarre.

jabrch
08-13-2006, 09:01 PM
Another one bites the dust... He had it coming.