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Frater Perdurabo
08-01-2006, 12:33 PM
:?: :?: :?:

OK, hear me out. For the money he makes, the stuff he's capable of throwing and the hype that has surrounded him, Vazquez has been a huge disappointment for the Sox. Many of us expected Coop to whip him into shape as a "third ace" along with Buehrle and Contreras (I was not one of them), or at least expected him to thrive in the reduced pressure of the #5 spot, much like Garland thrived last year (I did expect this, though).

But to his credit, in almost every start, Vazquez throws five very strong innings. Yes, he falls apart in the sixth - almost like clockwork - but what other team has a fifth starter who can give their team five very solid - and often scoreless or low-scoring - innings? Moreover, what other team that threatens for the Central or Wild Card race has a #5 starter who is more reliable and experienced, or has "stuff" that's as good as Vazquez?

For this "think positive" thread, the glass may be only half-full (of half-empty, depending on your perspective). But every other team has a bag of broken glass and spilled milk at the back end of its rotation.

:cool:

Dan Mega
08-01-2006, 12:37 PM
I like the fact that Vaz is pitching versus KC tonight.

Here's to hoping he goes a solid 8 and doesn't implode.

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2006, 12:41 PM
:?: :?: :?:

OK, hear me out. For the money he makes, the stuff he's capable of throwing and the hype that has surrounded him, Vazquez has been a huge disappointment for the Sox. Many of us expected Coop to whip him into shape as a "third ace" along with Buehrle and Contreras (I was not one of them), or at least expected him to thrive in the reduced pressure of the #5 spot, much like Garland thrived last year (I did expect this, though).

But to his credit, in almost every start, Vazquez throws five very strong innings. Yes, he falls apart in the sixth - almost like clockwork - but what other team has a fifth starter who can give their team five very solid - and often scoreless or low-scoring - innings? Moreover, what other team that threatens for the Central or Wild Card race has a #5 starter who is more reliable and experienced, or has "stuff" that's as good as Vazquez?

For this "think positive" thread, the glass may be only half-full (of half-empty, depending on your perspective). But every other team has a bag of broken glass and spilled milk at the back end of its rotation.

:cool:I'll give you one more. Even when he gets hit, he doesn't get hit hard. As I pointed out in a previous thread, he seems to get victimized by a lot of dinky hits that teams just manage to string together. But the good news is that all it takes is one of those seeing-eye grounders to go to someone for a DP instead of sneaking through for a hit and you have an entirely different result. It's about time the worm turned. Here's to another 7-inning no-no tonight.:gulp:

Jerko
08-01-2006, 12:45 PM
Vaz pitching on one day's rest??????? MB goes tonight.

The Immigrant
08-01-2006, 12:47 PM
Not to be a nitpicker, but Buehrle is pitching tonight. Vazquez pitched on Sunday.

hawkjt
08-01-2006, 12:47 PM
For the record; javy's next start is against the jays on saturday.

But I agree that with his stuff, sooner or later he is going to win some games for us. After april I had him as our #2 pitcher on stuff alone.

Beating the jays is no small bargain. Hoping our bullpen is rested by then.
Javy just needs to break thru and win one going 6 + and I think he will be ok. Light some candles at the start of the 6th on saturday.

nedlug
08-01-2006, 12:48 PM
How valuable will this guy be in the playoffs (assuming we get there, of course)?

Always comes out and can get guys twice through... that's a heck of a long reliever, no? He (along with McCarthy, another great LR) will be able to hold another team down if one of our starters just doesn't have it. Plus, it opens up the avenue of yanking a starter early with a 4-man rotation, since we have two very capable long relievers.

Vazquez is a great addition, IMO. Remember last year in the first half with JC? Sometimes, Coop needs a bit of time to "work his magic".

Palehose13
08-01-2006, 12:48 PM
Vaz pitching on one day's rest??????? MB goes tonight.

Yep. I'm hoping that pitching against KC will help him out a little bit. For the good of the team and my fantasy team!

soxfan26
08-01-2006, 12:49 PM
Not to be a nitpicker, but Buehrle is pitching tonight. Vazquez pitched on Sunday.

Me was very confused before reading this post. :D:

Chicken Dinner
08-01-2006, 12:53 PM
Unless he's got a 6+ run lead, he must be pulled after 5 innings. Stats don't lie and there is no way that he should be given the opportunity to throw away another game.

soxfan13
08-01-2006, 12:54 PM
Very good Frater, remember not too long ago when the Sox 5th starters combined for something like 2 wins all season.

Dan Mega
08-01-2006, 12:55 PM
I totally got fooled into thinking Vaz was pitching, oops.:D:

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2006, 01:00 PM
Unless he's got a 6+ run lead, he must be pulled after 5 innings. Stats don't lie and there is no way that he should be given the opportunity to throw away another game.Stats don't lie, but they rarely tell you the whole truth unless you dig it out of them. This is a good example.

mcfish
08-01-2006, 01:24 PM
Here's to hoping he goes a solid 8 and doesn't implode.I hope in his next start he goes a solid 5 and gets out of there with a lead. After that they can work on getting him later into games. I think a positive end to an outing would do wonders for him, as opposed to giving up the lead and being yanked again.

kwolf68
08-01-2006, 01:24 PM
I will be positive about Freddie, Jon, Jose, and Mark...because they are proven champions.

Javier has great stuff, maybe the best stuff in our rotation, but something is off with him.

Coop is a phenomenal pitching coach, but he isn't a psychiatrist. I hope for the best, but we can't have Javier killing momentum like he typically does...his last 3 games he followed up WINS with LOSSES...we can't stand for that.

But when he goes to the mound in Toronto we'll hope.

Jurr
08-01-2006, 01:26 PM
Very good Frater, remember not too long ago when the Sox 5th starters combined for something like 2 wins all season.
Exactly. Danny Wright, Diaz, Munoz, Rauch, and the lot are not far from my mind.

Though you have to think about the money involved, which makes Vazquez seem like a bleeding bust, it's a very nice luxury to have Javy as our fifth guy.

At least he's giving the team a chance to win games. We used to be without that luxury, and it wasn't long ago at all.

mcfish
08-01-2006, 01:27 PM
I hope for the best, but we can't have Javier killing momentum like he typically does...his last 3 games he followed up WINS with LOSSES...we can't stand for that.Ozzie's the one who left him in far too long in at least the last 2 games - gives up 3 in the 6th and he comes back out in the 7th against MIN, and then gives up a HR and hits Patterson, and Ozzie still lets him give up one more hit.

Frater Perdurabo
08-01-2006, 01:40 PM
I'll give you one more. Even when he gets hit, he doesn't get hit hard. As I pointed out in a previous thread, he seems to get victimized by a lot of dinky hits that teams just manage to string together. But the good news is that all it takes is one of those seeing-eye grounders to go to someone for a DP instead of sneaking through for a hit and you have an entirely different result. It's about time the worm turned. Here's to another 7-inning no-no tonight.:gulp:

Glad we're on the same page. :cool:

Vazquez would be helped IMMENSELY if Ozzie made sure to start Anderson in CF whenever Vazquez pitches. Anderson plays shallow enough to grab some of those soft dinky liners to center field on the fly that most MLB CFs (not just Mackowiak, but also Rowand and Hunter) would allow to fall for a single (because they routinely play deeper).
:wink:

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2006, 01:43 PM
Glad we're on the same page. :cool:

Vazquez would be helped IMMENSELY if Ozzie made sure to start Anderson in CF whenever Vazquez pitches. Anderson plays shallow enough to grab some of those soft dinky liners to center field on the fly that most MLB CFs (not just Mackowiak, but also Rowand and Hunter) would allow to fall for a single (because they routinely play deeper).
:wink:I passed a three-car pileup on the way to work this morning. Was Mackowiak at fault for that, too?:wink:

If you look for a reason to blame it on someone, sure enough you can usually find one. Vazquez' problems are his own. It seems like he just has problems pitching from the stretch. He was successful pitching his 7 inning no-no because he didn't have to.

INSox56
08-01-2006, 01:45 PM
Yep. I'm hoping that pitching against KC will help him out a little bit. For the good of the team and my fantasy team!

except that KC is one of the best hitting clubs in the majors since the start of july...

Frater Perdurabo
08-01-2006, 02:01 PM
I passed a three-car pileup on the way to work this morning. Was Mackowiak at fault for that, too?:wink:

If you look for a reason to blame it on someone, sure enough you can usually find one. Vazquez' problems are his own. It seems like he just has problems pitching from the stretch. He was successful pitching his 7 inning no-no because he didn't have to.

Just a few posts ago, you said:

Even when he gets hit, he doesn't get hit hard. As I pointed out in a previous thread, he seems to get victimized by a lot of dinky hits that teams just manage to string together.

So would Anderson's superior defense in CF help Vazquez or not?

I agree that Vazquez's problems are his own. But a good defensive play sometimes can make the difference between a 1-2-3 inning and a two-out, two-run homer.

Mackowiak can be my driver any day - I just don't want him in center field. :wink:

1951Campbell
08-01-2006, 02:09 PM
How's this for positive:

We're bitching about a lifetime .500 pitcher who is (1) our 5th starter, and (2) currently 9-6.

I know all the counterarguments, I don't care about "potential" or the fact that's he's over-paid. Not just a few years ago a 5th starter with a 9-6 record in 21 starts would be a Godsend and no one would give a hoot about the overpaying or the 5.44 ERA.

That's my "Positive Moment" for the day.

NoShoesJoe
08-01-2006, 02:12 PM
"Transcendental Meditation opens the awareness to the infinite reservoir of energy, creativity, and intelligence that lies deep within everyone.

"By enlivening this most basic level of life, Transcendental Meditation is that one simple procedure which can raise the life of every individual and every society to its full dignity, in which problems are absent and perfect health, happiness, and a rapid pace of progress are the natural features of life."
--Maharishi

...even getting through and beyond the 6th inning.

Hitmen77
08-01-2006, 02:20 PM
....But to his credit, in almost every start, Vazquez throws five very strong innings. Yes, he falls apart in the sixth - almost like clockwork - but what other team has a fifth starter who can give their team five very solid - and often scoreless or low-scoring - innings? Moreover, what other team that threatens for the Central or Wild Card race has a #5 starter who is more reliable and experienced, or has "stuff" that's as good as Vazquez?:cool:

....and yet, Ozzie keeps trotting him out in the 6th to get clobbered. I agree that Ozzie had little choice on Sunday because the bullpen was exhausted from the day before, but why bring Javy back out in the seventh to face the Twins last week? I agree with your "half full" assessment, but it only works if we don't leave him in to totally implode.


I'll give you one more. Even when he gets hit, he doesn't get hit hard. As I pointed out in a previous thread, he seems to get victimized by a lot of dinky hits that teams just manage to string together. But the good news is that all it takes is one of those seeing-eye grounders to go to someone for a DP instead of sneaking through for a hit and you have an entirely different result.

This is what makes the decision to start Mackowiak in CF in 2 recent Vazquez starts all the more frustrating to me. If we all know Javy keeps getting victimized by bloop hits and loses his composure when they happen, then why are we starting a guy who can't adequately cover ground in CF while we have a kid who looks like a natural out there ride the pine.:?: I agree that Vazquez is due to have some of these seeing-eye hits find their way to Crede, Uribe, or Anderson. His record in Arizona was up and down last year. We've been through the down now - it's time for things to look up for our 5th starter.

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2006, 02:47 PM
Just a few posts ago, you said:



So would Anderson's superior defense in CF help Vazquez or not?

I agree that Vazquez's problems are his own. But a good defensive play sometimes can make the difference between a 1-2-3 inning and a two-out, two-run homer.

Mackowiak can be my driver any day - I just don't want him in center field. :wink:Mackowiak not getting to a blooper is like the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's easy to focus on the straw when the real problem is the 1000 lb of other stuff. The straw is really just a trifle.

WS in 05
08-01-2006, 03:00 PM
see below

spiffie
08-01-2006, 03:17 PM
Stats don't lie, but they rarely tell you the whole truth unless you dig it out of them. This is a good example.
But yet our intution tells almost everyone watching this team the same thing as well. Are our eyes and the numbers lying to us? It seems like Occam's Razor applies here. Either A) Vazquez is a very good pitcher who is not being fairly represented by overwhelming statistical evidence and whom we are viewing incorrectly during our watching of his performances or B) he can't do more than 5 innings against any team playing at a Major League level.

Frater Perdurabo
08-01-2006, 03:20 PM
Mackowiak not getting to a blooper is like the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's easy to focus on the straw when the real problem is the 1000 lb of other stuff. The straw is really just a trifle.

Sure, it's a straw compared to the feces that Vazquez regularly defecates starting in the sixth inning.

But why not give the pitchers - especially those that struggle - as many advantages as possible - including and especially the very best defensive CF on the roster (and potentially in the MLB)?

pauliemyhero14
08-01-2006, 03:20 PM
Buehrle and Vasquez are both going through the same problem right now. That problem is Confidence. They have no Confidence on the mound. Well Vasquez does till the 3rd time around the order. They need to have one great start and get their confidence back

Sargeant79
08-01-2006, 03:50 PM
Buehrle and Vasquez are both going through the same problem right now. That problem is Confidence. They have no Confidence on the mound. Well Vasquez does till the 3rd time around the order. They need to have one great start and get their confidence back

It might take more than one strong start, but your point is right on the money. Both pitchers need to be put in situations where they can succeed.

As long as we're all playing manager, I think Vazquez should begin the sixth inning on his next start only as long as his pitch count is reasonable and as long as he has a lead of at least 2 runs. He should be yanked immediately if the tying run gets to the plate or if there is more than 1 baserunner. His leash should be lengthened only after a few games of success. Hopefully that will help him to get a little bit of confidence.

And yes, Brian Anderson should be in center field when he starts. Good defense makes any pitcher look better, and having the best defenders out there goes along with putting pitchers in a position to succeed.

Scottzilla
08-01-2006, 04:21 PM
I don't think its gonna help a guy's confidence if the manager basically says, "I have no faith in you in the 6th inning". Ozzie is actually doing the best thing for Vasquez but Vasquez has to turn it around himself.
This is exactly why i like ozzie as a manager so much. it must be very difficult to stick with this guy but if you give up on him in a game hes done for the rest of the year at least.

batmanZoSo
08-01-2006, 04:27 PM
Because the Sox are hungry for it. Hungry like the wolf.

http://www.geocities.com/whs_redwolf_jrotc/wolf_angry_.jpg

StatHead21
08-01-2006, 04:28 PM
I believe Verlander started the season as the "5th" starter.

russ99
08-01-2006, 05:51 PM
I hope in his next start he goes a solid 5 and gets out of there with a lead. After that they can work on getting him later into games. I think a positive end to an outing would do wonders for him, as opposed to giving up the lead and being yanked again.

I actually hope he can get through 6 solid innings next start (or soon). That would do wonders for his mental state and confidence, which really seem to be the problem with him.

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2006, 06:02 PM
But yet our intution tells almost everyone watching this team the same thing as well. Are our eyes and the numbers lying to us? It seems like Occam's Razor applies here. Either A) Vazquez is a very good pitcher who is not being fairly represented by overwhelming statistical evidence and whom we are viewing incorrectly during our watching of his performances or B) he can't do more than 5 innings against any team playing at a Major League level.He certainly did more than 5 innings earlier in the season, when he had several very good outings. Did he suddenly morph into someone else? It seems to come and go for no obvious reason. Drawing conclusions based on a small subset of data is easy, but usually gives a very incomplete picture.

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2006, 06:06 PM
Sure, it's a straw compared to the feces that Vazquez regularly defecates starting in the sixth inning.

But why not give the pitchers - especially those that struggle - as many advantages as possible - including and especially the very best defensive CF on the roster (and potentially in the MLB)?Anderson started in most of his games. It can't hurt, but looking at the record, I don't see any evidence that it's helped, either.

doctorlecter
08-01-2006, 06:27 PM
I don't think its gonna help a guy's confidence if the manager basically says, "I have no faith in you in the 6th inning". Ozzie is actually doing the best thing for Vasquez but Vasquez has to turn it around himself.
This is exactly why i like ozzie as a manager so much. it must be very difficult to stick with this guy but if you give up on him in a game hes done for the rest of the year at least.

Ozzie could try some reverse psychology on him. He should tell him before his next start, "I have no faith in you in the 10th inning."

RadioheadRocks
08-01-2006, 09:05 PM
I don't think its gonna help a guy's confidence if the manager basically says, "I have no faith in you in the 6th inning". Ozzie is actually doing the best thing for Vasquez but Vasquez has to turn it around himself.
This is exactly why i like ozzie as a manager so much. it must be very difficult to stick with this guy but if you give up on him in a game hes done for the rest of the year at least.

I'm not saying I disagree with this theory, but sooner or later the time has to come when we all wonder how many more silver dollars is Ozzie going to have to add to Bucket #6 before Vasquez finally takes the damn Schwinn home.

Hitmen77
08-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Some interesting comments from Coop on Vazquez's troubles:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-soxnt02.html