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Jjav829
07-31-2006, 10:31 PM
This guy is unbelievable in big situations. The Red Sox were down 2 in the bottom of the 9th with runners on 1st and 2nd. Ortiz crushed the 2-0 pitch off Carmona to dead center for a walkoff 3-run HR. Manny is great, but it's almost to the point where you might as well just put Ortiz on and take your chances with Manny in these situations.

caulfield12
07-31-2006, 10:32 PM
I'm getting a little tired of this guy, geeeeez.

The new Indians' closer, Fausto Carmona, is about to lose his job in less than one week.

7 runs given up in less than 2 IP his last two appearances.

Hope nobody picked him up for their fantasy team.

OTOH, when we get to play Cleveland, they won't have a bullpen either.

KRS1
07-31-2006, 10:33 PM
This guy is unbelievable in big situations. The Red Sox were down 2 in the bottom of the 9th with runners on 1st and 2nd. Ortiz crushed the 2-0 pitch off Carmona to dead center for a walkoff 2-run HR. Manny is great, but it's almost to the point where you might as well just put Ortiz on and take your chances with Manny in these situations.

Wouldnt that be a walk off 3-run HR?

Jjav829
07-31-2006, 10:34 PM
Wouldnt that be a walk off 3-run HR?

Yeah, the 3 and 2 are right next to each other. :smile:

QCIASOXFAN
07-31-2006, 10:34 PM
I saw it live (because I couldn't watch the Sox game) and it seemed like everyone in the stadium knew he was going to come through.

caulfield12
07-31-2006, 10:36 PM
That was entirely predictable. Obviously a wise move to have Loretta hit away, although, of course, he could have hit into a DP. But the tying run still would have been on with Ortiz having a chance to hit.

I can't believe that he grooved a fastball on that pitch, but a rookie doesn't have the confidence to go to his second pitch in that situation. The NY/Boston strike zone was in effect...if that second pitch was called a strike, it might not have been such a disastrous outcome.

You have to go to the R/R match-up even though it puts the winning run on first I guess. Not a fun position for Wedge to be in without Wickman.

So much for the three-way tie between the Sox, White Sox and Yankees. Only surprise tonight (maybe not so much) was Rogers getting rocked again by the D-Rays. I think we might be seeing the first crack in the foundation of the Tigers...luckily, they have two guys in Bonderman and Verlander that can shut down almost any team.

Jjav829
07-31-2006, 10:38 PM
I saw it live (because I couldn't watch the Sox game) and it seemed like everyone in the stadium knew he was going to come through.

I was watching it because the Sox game got boring (what can I say, looking at KC's stadium on TV makes me sleepy...I don't know why. It's a very boring stadium on TV if that makes sense). As soon as Carmona went 2-0 I had the feeling the game would be over on the next pitch.

caulfield12
07-31-2006, 10:43 PM
Looks like they might have to go to Betancourt as their closer before the rookie loses all his confidence.

DSpivack
07-31-2006, 11:04 PM
His 2nd shot of the game, to boot. I like Thome and Dye, but it's hard not to pick him as AL MVP. Certainly player of July, 14 HR and 35 RBI. :o:

RKMeibalane
07-31-2006, 11:07 PM
This guy is unbelievable in big situations. The Red Sox were down 2 in the bottom of the 9th with runners on 1st and 2nd. Ortiz crushed the 2-0 pitch off Carmona to dead center for a walkoff 3-run HR. Manny is great, but it's almost to the point where you might as well just put Ortiz on and take your chances with Manny in these situations.

Agreed. I wouldn't hesitate to walk him, even with the bases loaded. The guy is a machine.

goon
07-31-2006, 11:11 PM
His 2nd shot of the game, to boot. I like Thome and Dye, but it's hard not to pick him as AL MVP. Certainly player of July, 14 HR and 35 RBI. :o:

but he's a DH!

this is a dumb question, but is there anytype of award for the DH spot? if there is one, i'm not familiar with it, but if there isn't one, maybe there should be.

Soxfanspcu11
07-31-2006, 11:19 PM
Agreed. I wouldn't hesitate to walk him, even with the bases loaded. The guy is a machine.

Yep. There is NO REASON to pitch to this guy in any big situation. The fact that managers keep deciding to pitch to him with the game on the line is beyond me.

I'll take my chances with the Predator any day!

RKMeibalane
07-31-2006, 11:19 PM
but he's a DH!

this is a dumb question, but is there anytype of award for the DH spot? if there is one, i'm not familiar with it, but if there isn't one, maybe there should be.

Silver Slugger

Foulke You
07-31-2006, 11:23 PM
I was watching it because the Sox game got boring (what can I say, looking at KC's stadium on TV makes me sleepy...I don't know why. It's a very boring stadium on TV if that makes sense).
It's the soothing water from the fountains that lull one to sleep. Of course, the fact that there were only 12,000 fans in the house and it was quiet enough to conduct Mass had something to do with it.:cool:

Kub_Killer_15
07-31-2006, 11:44 PM
looking at KC's stadium on TV makes me sleepy


Makes me tired to! Also I find their commentary boring I acutally dosed off in the 7th and 8th inning!:wink:

NDSox12
08-01-2006, 12:27 AM
That was entirely predictable. Obviously a wise move to have Loretta hit away, although, of course, he could have hit into a DP. But the tying run still would have been on with Ortiz having a chance to hit.


Interesting point regarding Loretta swinging away because the White Sox took the opposite approach with Iguchi/Thome in the game Friday night in Baltimore. Of course, Thome doesn't have quite the same 9th inning reputation as Ortiz and the Red Sox don't bunt nearly as often as the White Sox. The important thing is that the strategies for both teams paid off in game winning home runs.

soxfanreggie
08-01-2006, 12:33 AM
That man always seems to get it done in the clutch. If we see them in the playoffs, I just hope he is off. He's not on my fave team, but I have respect for him as a hitter.

Chisox003
08-01-2006, 12:33 AM
Hope nobody picked him up for their fantasy team.
:angry::angry::angry:

Killed my ERA last week, does it again tonight.

Goodbye Fausto, I enjoyed your stay.

thomas35forever
08-01-2006, 01:18 AM
That man always seems to get it done in the clutch. If we see them in the playoffs, I just hope he is off. He's not on my fave team, but I have respect for him as a hitter.
Worst-case scenario: We're up by 3 runs with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the ALDS at Fenway Park. The sacks are packed and Papi is up. Imagine the pressure Bobby would face.

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 02:07 AM
Ortiz is just a great hitter... it doesn't matter if it's close and late or tied 0-0 in the second. As a Red Sox fan it is nice seeing fans crap themselves when he's up in the 9th though.

I really don't buy into the whole clutch thing as much as other people do. Sure I believe in it but often times I think we just recall what we want to when it comes to how a player does when it's tight and late. I also think Ortiz has a huge edge hitting in front of Manny.

Mr. White Sox
08-01-2006, 02:40 AM
:angry::angry::angry:

Killed my ERA last week, does it again tonight.

Goodbye Fausto, I enjoyed your stay.
He sorta killed my ERA this week and killed it last week.

Luckily I have Haren.

I'm still not dropping him; he has outstanding stuff and faced one of the toughest lineups in baseball tonight. Cleveland also won't remove him as closer, as they really don't have much to fight for for the rest of the season. Might as well have him finish it out and get experience in that position, as he's their opening-day closer for 2007.

Out of Benitez, Burgos and Carmona (my three worst RP), I'd drop Benitez first.

NDSox12
08-01-2006, 08:37 AM
Worst-case scenario: We're up by 3 runs with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the ALDS at Fenway Park. The sacks are packed and Papi is up. Imagine the pressure Bobby would face.

That's a worst case scenario? Personally, I'd love to see that situation because A) it means we made the playoffs and B) we are one out away from the ALCS....

I know what you are saying tough. That would be a scary situation.

Fenway
08-01-2006, 09:32 AM
I saw it live (because I couldn't watch the Sox game) and it seemed like everyone in the stadium knew he was going to come through.

That is exactly the feeling you get when he comes up in the 9th, I've never seen anyone come close to this. If he doesn't get the MVP this year

Dan Shaughnessy went ga-ga this morning.


Does anyone know how hard this is? A home run, John Updike once reminded us, cannot be hit at will. And yet it seems that Ortiz can dial up a game-winning blast every time.
Every time.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/01/this_hit_maker_is_off_the_charts/

MadetoOrta
08-01-2006, 09:49 AM
Not only is he a stud clutch hitter, Papi is one of the great guys in baseball.

Deebs14
08-01-2006, 01:49 PM
Somehow this guy can make the last out in the 8th, and STILL find a way to hit a walkoff in the 9th.

It's almost as though once the 9th inning comes around it's Ortiz every batter from there on out...1-9. So ****ing aggravating! :mad:

Lyle Mouton
08-01-2006, 02:04 PM
Not only is he a stud clutch hitter, Papi is one of the great guys in baseball.

He really is, you can't hate the man

TDog
08-01-2006, 02:38 PM
When I see people saying Dye should be the league MVP, I know they're not paying attention to other teams. Ortiz is having a ridiculously good year.

In August 1996, at the trade deadline, the Mariners acquired Dave Hollins from the Twins for a player to be named later. A couple of weeks later, that player turned out to be David Oritz, going by the name Arias. Sometimes those deals don't work out.

asindc
08-01-2006, 04:23 PM
:angry::angry::angry:

Killed my ERA last week, does it again tonight.

Goodbye Fausto, I enjoyed your stay.

Killing my ratio this week. Hopefully, he just got his bad outings out of the way already. What concerns me, though, is that he was lights out before being put in the spotlight role of closer. He's got 2 more chances with me.

As for Ortiz, I also watched last night. Once it went 2-0, I thought "game over." However, it reminded me of the near-miss deep fly out he hit against Freddy in the ALDS. That's the difference between a rookie and a veteran pitcher I guess.:smile:

Mr. White Sox
08-01-2006, 05:01 PM
When I see people saying Dye should be the league MVP, I know they're not paying attention to other teams. Ortiz is having a ridiculously good year.

Ortiz
.289/.392/.623/1.015
RISP, 2 out:
64 PA, .288/.422/.558/.980
clutch?

Dye
.319/.393/.637/1.030
RISP, 2 out:
55 PA, .341/.473/.750/1.223
clutch!

Dye leads the AL in .SLG
The only players in the AL with a higher OPS are Manny Ramirez and Travis Hafner. I think Dye's above-average defensive ability puts him up and over those two.
Dye for MVP, folks.

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 05:51 PM
Ortiz
.289/.392/.623/1.015
RISP, 2 out:
64 PA, .288/.422/.558/.980
clutch?

Dye
.319/.393/.637/1.030
RISP, 2 out:
55 PA, .341/.473/.750/1.223
clutch!

Dye leads the AL in .SLG
The only players in the AL with a higher OPS are Manny Ramirez and Travis Hafner. I think Dye's above-average defensive ability puts him up and over those two.
Dye for MVP, folks.

This is why I don't like talking about clutch. 55 PA is hardly a sample, also Ortiz fans will oftne times point out what his stats are when it is close and late.

A-Rod fans will point out that last season he had the most game winning RBIs

A-Rod hater will point out all those game in the first 5 innings.


When it comes to how clutch someone is, we can not rely on one stat.

Right now I think Ortiz gets the MVP, though I don't even think he is the Red Sox MVP. Voters love RBIs.

MadetoOrta
08-01-2006, 05:57 PM
Fenway,

What does Ortiz attribute his success to? He did little on the Twinkies. Is there any coach or change in batting stance? Curious.

MTO

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 06:01 PM
Fenway,

What does Ortiz attribute his success to? He did little on the Twinkies. Is there any coach or change in batting stance? Curious.

MTO


He has claimed that the Twins coaching staff wanted him to hit the other way.

Papa Jack in Boston said he wasn't going to be a starter on the team unless he used his power.

goon
08-01-2006, 06:39 PM
This is why I don't like talking about clutch. 55 PA is hardly a sample, also Ortiz fans will oftne times point out what his stats are when it is close and late.

A-Rod fans will point out that last season he had the most game winning RBIs

A-Rod hater will point out all those game in the first 5 innings.


When it comes to how clutch someone is, we can not rely on one stat.

Right now I think Ortiz gets the MVP, though I don't even think he is the Red Sox MVP. Voters love RBIs.

he may have more "walk-off's" than jermaine, but jermaine's stats with 2 outs and RISP more than overshadow what ortiz does in that situation... i could care less if it pretty much always works out for ortiz in the 9th. and jermaine's glove in RF more then compensates for the homeruns, jermaine with 29 and ortiz with 37, and RBI's jermaine with 77 and ortiz with 105... at least my mind, but i am a white sox fan.

aside from home runs, RBI's and sportscenter top ten appearances, jermaine does everything that ortiz does.... but ortiz doesn't play the field. though that won't be the difference, he'll still get the MVP and truthfully either one of these guys deserves it, at this point at least.

Mr. White Sox
08-01-2006, 06:48 PM
This is why I don't like talking about clutch. 55 PA is hardly a sample, also Ortiz fans will oftne times point out what his stats are when it is close and late.

A-Rod fans will point out that last season he had the most game winning RBIs

A-Rod hater will point out all those game in the first 5 innings.


When it comes to how clutch someone is, we can not rely on one stat.

Right now I think Ortiz gets the MVP, though I don't even think he is the Red Sox MVP. Voters love RBIs.

I used that stat for two purposes.
Purpose 1: You cannot quantify "clutch" because of the small sample size, so there's no point really talking about it in general.
Purpose 2: If someone really wants to say Ortiz is the best clutch hitter around, in the "clutch" statistic, Jermaine outranks Ortiz

I hate when people say Ortiz should win the MVP because he gets the most game-winning hits. It's a product of the situation he's in in that lineup combined with increased media attention whenever he does something like that. There are plenty of hitters that get walkoffs, and when they do there isn't that much attention paid to them.

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 06:57 PM
he may have more "walk-off's" than jermaine, but jermaine's stats with 2 outs and RISP more than overshadow what ortiz does in that situation... i could care less if it pretty much always works out for ortiz in the 9th. and jermaine's glove in RF more then compensates for the homeruns, jermaine with 29 and ortiz with 37, and RBI's jermaine with 77 and ortiz with 105... at least my mind, but i am a white sox fan.

aside from home runs, RBI's and sportscenter top ten appearances, jermaine does everything that ortiz does.... but ortiz doesn't play the field. though that won't be the difference, he'll still get the MVP and truthfully either one of these guys deserves it, at this point at least.

I agree with everything you posted except the top line:

My point was what a lot of people argued to Ortiz's value as a clutch hitter are his numbers when a game is close and late.

I'm not saying that makes him more clutch than Dye, just that the arguement is just as valid as using RISP with 2 out.

Both are stats that only tell us about a small sample of at bats. Both stats make the point that the guy delievers when their teams needs it and both stats are pretty much unable to tell us about what player is clutchier (sp?, is that ever a word)

My main point is, while I do believe that some players are "clutch" it is impossible for us to quantify it in numbers. As a baseball fan who is much more stat minded than traditional I also find it difficult for scouts or fans to be able to make any real honest statements about a persons ability under pressure as too much of that is based on the bias of memory.

Ortiz and Dye are having very similar years. Thus far Dye is out hitting him by a little, Dye plays in an easier park to hit in but is also and above average right fielder. If I had to vote between the two I'd vote Dye, though I don't think a vote for Ortiz would be "wrong"

In fact one could vote for: Thome, Manny, Dye or Ortiz and I would not view their vote as not being "correct". As you said of Dye and Ortiz, all four of these guys are having great seasons.

I want Manny to get it since he never has and I love the guy, but that's not really that good a reason.

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 07:01 PM
I used that stat for two purposes.
Purpose 1: You cannot quantify "clutch" because of the small sample size, so there's no point really talking about it in general.
Purpose 2: If someone really wants to say Ortiz is the best clutch hitter around, in the "clutch" statistic, Jermaine outranks Ortiz

I hate when people say Ortiz should win the MVP because he gets the most game-winning hits. It's a product of the situation he's in in that lineup combined with increased media attention whenever he does something like that. There are plenty of hitters that get walkoffs, and when they do there isn't that much attention paid to them.


How is that the clutch stat?

How is hitting a home run with 2 outs and a guy on second while winning 15-2 the same as hitting a homer in the bottom of the 9th?

I don't know who is more clutch, but I do know 2 out with RISP is not "the clutch stat"

Last season Ortiz supporters pointed to his OPS of 1.200 after the 7th in close games. They said he should have won the MVP over Arod becuase of this.

I disagreed with that as well. What does 60 atbats tell us over the course of one season.

60 at bats out of a season someone has an OPS of 1000, we can expect and OPS anywhere from 880-1500. (quick caveman math "I didn't bother making a bell curve)


We baseball fans often times look for facts in randomness.

kevingrt
08-01-2006, 07:25 PM
To make it plain and simple I hate David Ortiz and I hate the Boston Red Sawx.

I heard on ESPN last night that he made some comment saying his average would be 40 points higher if opposing teams didn't put the shift on him. Well if they put the shift on you hit it the other way stupid. Your average is where it's at because you either hit it to someone or out of the park. Learn how to go the other way then your average will go up. God, some people are stupid, and Ortiz is one of them. And annoying at that.

But damn, he can crush the baseball.

PKalltheway
08-02-2006, 01:34 AM
Worst-case scenario: We're up by 3 runs with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning in Game 5 of the ALDS at Fenway Park. The sacks are packed and Papi is up. Imagine the pressure Bobby would face.
Intentionally walk "Fat Papa" and Manny, which will score two runs and leave us up by one. Big, bad Bobby will strike the next guy out and we move on to the ALCS!!!:D: :cool: (I really, really did not want to use teal, but do you think Ozzie would do it?) *cues in appropriate, situational, thinking music*

"wrong" sox fan
08-02-2006, 02:01 AM
To make it plain and simple I hate David Ortiz and I hate the Boston Red Sawx.

I heard on ESPN last night that he made some comment saying his average would be 40 points higher if opposing teams didn't put the shift on him. Well if they put the shift on you hit it the other way stupid. Your average is where it's at because you either hit it to someone or out of the park. Learn how to go the other way then your average will go up. God, some people are stupid, and Ortiz is one of them. And annoying at that.

But damn, he can crush the baseball.

Never thought I'd read something on this site worse than the Manny Ramirez thread but oh well.

you don't happen to like one of the most popular players in the sport, so he must be both stupid and annoying.

For the record, he has plenty of doubles and singles as well as home runs. Over the past three season he's been light years better as a hitter than anyone on the White Sox not named Thome and he's stil ahead of Thome (though not Thome's fault at all) becuase of 2004.

But yeah he's stupid and annoying...

"wrong" sox fan
08-02-2006, 02:02 AM
one other thing, he did hit the other way pretty well with the Twins. One reason why he didn't hit many home runs or doubles was in part due to the fact that the twins wanted him to hit the other way so much. Knee problems didn't help either.

Fenway
08-02-2006, 10:40 AM
ponder these stats

According to Red Sox historian Allan Wood, webmaster of joyofsox.blogspot.com (http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/), Ortiz has come to the plate 19 times in walkoff situations since the end of the 2004 regular season (postseasons included) and reached base 16 times. He is 11 for 14 (.786), with 7 HRs and 20 RBIs. This season, he is 8 for 9, with 5 HRs and 15 RBIs. Amazing.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/02/varitek_out_at_least_a_month/?page=2

RKMeibalane
08-02-2006, 11:47 AM
Fenway,

What does Ortiz attribute his success to? He did little on the Twinkies. Is there any coach or change in batting stance? Curious.

MTO

Ortiz couldn't stay healthy when he played in Minnesota, which is a big reason why they cut him lose after '02.

Thome25
08-02-2006, 12:06 PM
Who cares about Ortiz and the Wrong Sawx? I could really care less.

viagracat
08-02-2006, 12:33 PM
Between Dye and Ortiz, it might come down to which Sox team goes to the playoffs...it probably won't be both.

Fenway
08-02-2006, 12:37 PM
Between Dye and Ortiz, it might come down to which Sox team goes to the playoffs...it probably won't be both.

The 3 games with Chicago starting Labor Day at Fenway look huge right now.

Obviously I want the Yankees to fail but they only getting stronger as they get keep players back in September.

Deebs14
08-02-2006, 02:48 PM
Who cares about Ortiz and the Wrong Sawx? I could really care less.

No kidding...if I really wanted to listen to a bunch of dumbass Red Sox "fans" cream themselves over every player on their team I'd flip on ESPN for that ****.

"wrong" sox fan
08-02-2006, 02:53 PM
No kidding...if I really wanted to listen to a bunch of dumbass Red Sox "fans" cream themselves over every player on their team I'd flip on ESPN for that ****.

SO you're calling me a dumb ass? What have I said that is wrong?

It must of been the post that I made about clutch being difficult to quantify.

Fenway
08-02-2006, 02:58 PM
SO you're calling me a dumb ass? What have I said that is wrong?

It must of been the post that I made about clutch being difficult to quantify.

I think the stats the Boston Globe printed today show what clutch is.

"wrong" sox fan
08-02-2006, 03:02 PM
I think the stats the Boston Globe printed today show what clutch is.

I'm not sure I would make the case that we can know how good a hitter is in the clutch after 20 PA's.

Jjav829
08-02-2006, 03:24 PM
Who cares about Ortiz and the Wrong Sawx? I could really care less.

Then don't open the thread. Perhaps you didn't notice what forum you are in. It's called "Talking Baseball." It's a forum for all non-White Sox baseball talk.

Fenway
08-02-2006, 03:29 PM
I'm not sure I would make the case that we can know how good a hitter is in the clutch after 20 PA's.

It's better than A-Rod :tongue:

Why the Twins wanted him to be a singles hitter instead of hitting for power.......:?:

"wrong" sox fan
08-02-2006, 03:30 PM
It's better than A-Rod :tongue:

Why the Twins wanted him to be a singles hitter instead of hitting for power.......:?:

I am so thankful they wanted him to hit that way... Imagine Boston with out Ortiz that past three seasons. They're an 85 win team last year and god knows what this season.

"wrong" sox fan
08-02-2006, 03:32 PM
Ortiz is player of the month.

Fenway
08-02-2006, 04:38 PM
I am so thankful they wanted him to hit that way... Imagine Boston with out Ortiz that past three seasons. They're an 85 win team last year and god knows what this season.

and we still be waiting to win a World Series

I think my favorite radio call from the 2004 playoffs was Trupiano screaming at 1:30 in the morning

Ortiz, so many times the hero for the Red Sox, trying to have the ballclub jump on his back one more time. The 2-1 pitch… SWING AND A DRIVE! Deep to right, way back… and this ball is GONE! Jump on his back fellas, the Red Sox win! David Ortiz… another walkoff home run and the Red Sox beat the Yankees, 6-4. He will be mobbed at home plate and the Red Sox live to play another game.

and we went to sleep that morning thinking "if we can just get back to New York..." :smile:

Fenway
08-03-2006, 12:21 PM
Bill Simmons is comparing Ortiz with Larry Bird for most clutch athlete in Boston history. Who can argue

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060802

Soxfanspcu11
08-03-2006, 01:46 PM
you don't happen to like one of the most popular players in the sport, so he must be both stupid and annoying.


I personally like Ortiz and the red sox, they are probably my second favorite American League team. Of course, they are no where near close to my love for the REAL SOX.

I can't agree with this guy saying that Ortiz is "stupid and annoying". But what I can agree with is that in this particular instance, this comment by Ortiz, is both "stupid" and "annoying".

He is complaining about the shift? He is saying that his average would be 40 points higher if not for the shift?? What a load of horse ****. Listen "Papi", teams pull the shift on you because you are such a predictable hitter. Everyone knows where you are going to hit the ball.

You want your average 40 points higher? Try waiting back on a few pitches. Hell, you don't even have to hit the ball hard to left field to get a hit, you could check swing your way on base. ****, you could probably bunt your way on.

Like I said, in general I like David Ortiz, but this is a John Rocker style comment, in terms of just plain old stupidity.

Once again, Mr. Ortiz, the shift is on because you hit the ball there EVERY time. If you were not so perdictable, maybe teams would play you straight up and your average would be higher. Talk about going out of your way to find something to complain about. *****.:rolleyes: