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caulfield12
07-31-2006, 10:08 PM
Albeit not a surprising one....

White Sox starters had only 8 quality starts in 24 outings (33.3%)

Contreras, our "ace," has only 12 quality starts in 20 outings now this season...granted, he has given up no more than 4 runs (some were surrendered by relievers), but he's not sharp either

FarWestChicago
07-31-2006, 11:00 PM
You are one seriously negative individual.

Chips
07-31-2006, 11:05 PM
You are one seriously negative individual.

He is also one seriously ignored individual. :tongue:

Jjav829
07-31-2006, 11:09 PM
Actually, our starters have had 0 quality starts in July. :o::o::o:

We're screwed! :thud:

:chickenlittle:

Really, though, we get it. Our pitching has not been good. No one needs to see how many quality starts we had to know that.

MrRoboto83
07-31-2006, 11:10 PM
Actually, our starters have had 0 quality starts in July. :o::o::o:

We're screwed! :thud:

I'd much rather have KC's rotation.

Dan Mega
07-31-2006, 11:17 PM
I'd much rather have KC's rotation.

With their rotation its goodbye cruel world!

Jjav829
07-31-2006, 11:24 PM
I'd much rather have KC's rotation.

Mark Redman was an All-Star, which is more than you can say about 3/5 of our rotation. :(:

StatHead21
08-01-2006, 01:04 AM
You are one seriously negative individual.

How? He presented all facts, he didn't say one negative thing, and it was quite interesting. Good post!

CLR01
08-01-2006, 01:15 AM
How? He presented all facts, he didn't say one negative thing, and it was quite interesting. Good post!



WWBBD?

SABRSox
08-01-2006, 01:16 AM
How? He presented all facts, he didn't say one negative thing, and it was quite interesting. Good post!

Are you guys even Sox fans? I seriously don't get it.

buehrle4cy05
08-01-2006, 01:25 AM
WWBBD?

Take a few pitches.

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 08:06 AM
Last time I checked, what I said... it wasn't even an opinion, it was an irrefutable fact.

I didn't say KW was an idiot for not making a move, that Pods is done...for example, one of the disputes around here is that Vazquez should never throw another curve.

Well, gee...that's something that anyone can discern. Javier doesn't get over the top of the ball, he gets behind it and pushes it up there and it hangs. Why don't posters just give Don Cooper a call, then we won't have to worry about Javier ever throwing another curve in a big situation in the 5th, 6th or 7th inning again.

I won't quote his BAA for the 5-8th because that would be negative. Javier is one of the best starters in the game in the first four innings, I will take the glass is half empty approach from now on.

Better yet, maybe we should tell Mark to go back to pitching from the very end of the rubber and to leave his glove where he used to instead of tucking it near his belt...if Bert Blyleven noticed this, why can't Coop?

Sure, it would be great if we could honestly say you feel like we're automatically going to win when Jose takes the mound like we used to...but does anyone really feel that way?

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 08:36 AM
Because I quoted a statistic, somehow Billy Beane has something to do with it?

Billy Beane is an idiot.

In the last two years, he has....

Acquired Octavio Dotel and Arthur Rhodes to be his closer

Signed Esteban Loiaza at well above market value

Put his hopes for franchise stability in Bobby Crosby, much as Shapiro did in Cleveland with Peralta

Tried to replace Giambi w/ Hatteberg and Durazo

Held on to Zito too long...the only thing that might bail them out is Bill Stoneman refusing to trade young prospects to get the hitter the Angels so badly needed

Trading Bonderman for Ted Lilly

Ridiculous contract for Jason Kendall, who has hit how many homers in his last 1,000 at-bats?

Steve Karsay for Mike Fetters

Drafting Ariel Prieto (Cuban pitcher) over Todd Helton

Trading Mark Teahen for Octavio Dotel

from danieldrezner.com/baseballamerica.com
Q: Dave from Third Avenue, Manhattan asks: Jim, what is your take on the Moneyball draft, four years out. Swisher and Blanton seem to be doing just fine. Who else bears watching? Jeremy Brown?

A: Jim Callis: ...Given the number of picks the Athletics had in 2002, their Moneyball draft looks pretty average to me. They had seven first-round picks, and they got two solid big leaguers (Swisher, Blanton--both of whom were consensus first-round picks and not Moneyball choices out of the blue, by the way), a fringe regular (Teahen) and four guys who won't do much (McCurdy, Fritz, Brown, Obenchain). After that, there's not much beyond Shane Komine in the ninth round. Don't tell Michael Lewis, but it doesn't look like anyone revolutionized the draft in 2002. If you re-read Lewis' chapter on the 2002 draft, you could go even further than Callis' assessment. In his chapter on the draft, Lewis recounts how Athletics GM Billy Beane went ballistic because in the previous year, the A's first-round draft pick was.... Jeremy Bonderman (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/bondeje01.php). Bonderman was the player to be named later in a deal that sent Ted Lilly from the Yankees to the Athletics. My guess is that Beane would be happy to have the current incarnation of that pitcher given his current price tag.

The 2002 Athletics draft should have been an "easy test" of the Moneyball revolution. The Athletics had a large number of draft picks, and no other team had really embraced the sabermetric philosophy to the extent that the A's had. If that draft failed to yield an above-average number of quality MLB players, what does it say about the utility of sabermetrics as a scouting tool?

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 09:02 AM
Royals' rotation in 2007

LHP De La Rosa (shut down the Rangers in Arlington in his first start, great stuff but erratic control history)
RHP Greinke
LHP Odalis Perez (Royals have for free for two years and Moore knows him from his days in ATL)
LHP Tyler Lumsden
RHP Todd Wellemeyer (looked good last night)/RHP Luke Hudson/RHP Joselo Diaz

The Royals have added Daniel Cortes, who many here liked and two pitchers from the Dodgers that could make it eventually...they also are waiting to sign Luke Hochevar, their first round draft pick, who should make a more immediate impact.

They have a ton of depth now with their new 1B (not Ryan Howard, but he will be solid, trapped behind Helton), Teahen, Alex Gordon (first rounder from NEB), Billy Butler (future DH), Mitch Maier, Justin Huber, Shane Costa...they can trade Berroa and get something back in return as well. DeJesus is a very solid major leaguer.

Yeah, there are a TON of ifs with that rotation...but if just two of them pan out and Hochevar comes in and does well, then you have the strong possibility of a better rotation than what the White Sox will have in 2008 or 2009.

They can afford to be patient like the Tigers were with Bonderman, Maroth and Robertson. Their offense will come along much quicker. They could be .500 as quickly as next season if their pitching comes around....

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 09:15 AM
CF DeJesus
2B Mark Teahen
DH Mike Sweeney/Billy Butler
1B Ryan Shealy hit .222 in five games but hit .330 with two home runs and 16 RBI in 36 games last year.
3B Alex Gordon
SS Angel Berroa/Blanco
C John Buck
LF/RF Mitch Maier, Shane Costa, Justin Huber

Eventually, this team will be capable of producing a similar output to the White Sox this season....

soxfan13
08-01-2006, 09:56 AM
At least it will be easier to get season ticks next year. Gonna be tuff choosing a team this year to root for in the playoffs:smile:

MadetoOrta
08-01-2006, 10:29 AM
Quality starts [a lack thereof] is our problem. Yes it's stating the obvious but to the extent folks want Andruw Jones, Jr. Griffey etc ... in my opinion you're barking up the wrong tree. If our starters get back to being a semblance of what they were last year, we'll be there at the end.

It's going to be interesting to be the hunters rather than the hunted.

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 11:57 AM
I don't know if anyone will laugh tonight if Odalis Perez decides to pitch like he's capable of pitching. Who knows what the odds of that happening are, but I'm sure the Yankees, Mariners and Angels never in their wildest imaginations thought Contreras, Thornton and Jenks would become the forces they have become. Well, I take that back partially...Cashman knew it, but knew it would never happen in NYC.

Perez doesn't have that kind of talent...but he's not without talent either.

And I would have hoped we would learn not to take for granted struggling lefthanders with our recent Bruce Chen Experience, which left the Sox in an Orange and Black Haze.

sox1970
08-01-2006, 12:18 PM
Albeit not a surprising one....

White Sox starters had only 8 quality starts in 24 outings (33.3%)

Contreras, our "ace," has only 12 quality starts in 20 outings now this season...granted, he has given up no more than 4 runs (some were surrendered by relievers), but he's not sharp either

When the Sox had 62 games left, I said the Sox will need 36 quality starts in the last 62 games in order to win 97 games. The have two in the last four games, so they need another 34. Keep track the rest of the season and see if it works out.

The Immigrant
08-01-2006, 12:28 PM
Odalis Perez has not thrown more than two innings in an outing since the end of June, and not more than four innings since the end of May. He couldn't hack it in the NL even as a reliever. I like our chances.

KC: LHP Odalis Perez (4-4, 6.83 ERA)
Perez, acquired last Tuesday from the Los Angeles Dodgers, will need to shake some rust off as he makes his Royals debut as a starter. The 29-year-old Dominican lefty lost his starting job with the Dodgers in May and only made 10 appearances in the two subsequent months, going 0-3 with a 7.89 ERA. An All-Star who won 15 games in 2002, Perez was 4-4 with a 6.83 ERA in 20 appearances for the Dodgers this season. He last pitched for Los Angeles on July 22.

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 02:05 PM
That's pushing it...both those starts were games in which the starter gave up 4 and one was charged to the defense...still, a 4.50 ERA isn't much to be proud of

sox1970
08-01-2006, 02:21 PM
That's pushing it...both those starts were games in which the starter gave up 4 and one was charged to the defense...still, a 4.50 ERA isn't much to be proud of

Forget about the minimum quality start (6 innings, 3 earned runs). Just keep track and see if it works out. 34 more.

caulfield12
08-01-2006, 11:48 PM
kudos to Buehrle tonight...too bad he couldn't get the victory, but we'll take it

I miscredited Contreras with NOT having a quality start last night, so we're 10 for our last 25 games in terms of getting quality starts...

FarWestChicago
08-02-2006, 09:39 PM
Last time I checked, what I said... it wasn't even an opinion, it was an irrefutable fact.The only irrefutable fact is that you are an incredibly negative individual. Look at all of your posts. You are clearly depressed. That's all I'm saying.

PennStater98r
08-02-2006, 10:11 PM
caulfield/chicken little - believe it or not - you are a negative fella.

Thing is - I can state the facts all day long too.

The United States is at war.
People die every day.
Cancer has no cure at this time.

To point out "facts" that imply disaster is negative.

Those are all facts. No one can dispute them, but the fact that one comes on here to remind us all of those negative facts brings us down. I like silver sides, and coming off a World Series win last year, I'd like to focus on what's right about the team - and at the very least, I'd rather talk about what Guillen and Williams and Coop are doing to fix what is wrong with the team. I can spout statistics all day long about problems with this or that - White Sox related or not. However, I'd rather spend my time focusing on what's going right and look for this team to do some things better.

Hell, even your 'gratz to Buehrle was negative - "too bad he couldn't get the victory." I'd much rather have read something like - there's the Buehrle of old!

caulfield12
08-02-2006, 11:16 PM
I was at the game tonight....say what you want about being positive, but Freddy Garcia was lucky not to have given up 3 more runs.

He just doesn't have it anymore. And Guillen never should have let him pitch into the 7th.

Sometimes you just have a feeling about a team, and it just doesn't exist this year, for whatever reason. The team had that "it" in 1983, 1990, 1993/4, 2000 and 2005, but they're clearly not in synch and haven't been for a month. Uribe dropping that foul pop pretty much sums it up.

I would love to think that we can go in and sweep KC without Thome and Konerko, but you can't do it when you keep pitching to Mark Teahen like we have been.

caulfield12
08-02-2006, 11:22 PM
That's for your psychoanalytical insight. It's greatly appreciated.

StatHead21
08-03-2006, 02:25 AM
Because I quoted a statistic, somehow Billy Beane has something to do with it?

Billy Beane is an idiot.

In the last two years, he has....

Acquired Octavio Dotel and Arthur Rhodes to be his closer

Signed Esteban Loiaza at well above market value

Put his hopes for franchise stability in Bobby Crosby, much as Shapiro did in Cleveland with Peralta

Tried to replace Giambi w/ Hatteberg and Durazo

Held on to Zito too long...the only thing that might bail them out is Bill Stoneman refusing to trade young prospects to get the hitter the Angels so badly needed

Trading Bonderman for Ted Lilly

Ridiculous contract for Jason Kendall, who has hit how many homers in his last 1,000 at-bats?

Steve Karsay for Mike Fetters

Drafting Ariel Prieto (Cuban pitcher) over Todd Helton

Trading Mark Teahen for Octavio Dotel

from danieldrezner.com/baseballamerica.comQ: Dave from Third Avenue, Manhattan asks: Jim, what is your take on the Moneyball draft, four years out. Swisher and Blanton seem to be doing just fine. Who else bears watching? Jeremy Brown?

A: Jim Callis: ...Given the number of picks the Athletics had in 2002, their Moneyball draft looks pretty average to me. They had seven first-round picks, and they got two solid big leaguers (Swisher, Blanton--both of whom were consensus first-round picks and not Moneyball choices out of the blue, by the way), a fringe regular (Teahen) and four guys who won't do much (McCurdy, Fritz, Brown, Obenchain). After that, there's not much beyond Shane Komine in the ninth round. Don't tell Michael Lewis, but it doesn't look like anyone revolutionized the draft in 2002. If you re-read Lewis' chapter on the 2002 draft, you could go even further than Callis' assessment. In his chapter on the draft, Lewis recounts how Athletics GM Billy Beane went ballistic because in the previous year, the A's first-round draft pick was.... Jeremy Bonderman (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/bondeje01.php). Bonderman was the player to be named later in a deal that sent Ted Lilly from the Yankees to the Athletics. My guess is that Beane would be happy to have the current incarnation of that pitcher given his current price tag.

The 2002 Athletics draft should have been an "easy test" of the Moneyball revolution. The Athletics had a large number of draft picks, and no other team had really embraced the sabermetric philosophy to the extent that the A's had. If that draft failed to yield an above-average number of quality MLB players, what does it say about the utility of sabermetrics as a scouting tool?

He makes all of these moves because he has very little money to work with, you think he wanted to get rid of Giambi, Tejeda, Hudson, Mulder or Foulke? The term "idiot" doesn't not apply to him, genius? No, but smart top 5-10 GM in the league right now, yes. The term "idiot" apply's better to Henry who thinks Caesar "Izaturis" has won 2 Gold Gloves and has hit .330 in a season.

caulfield12
08-03-2006, 02:55 AM
No, I was just using that word to make a point that he's not some type of God that walks on water and can do no wrong.

Especially after all the criticism KW took after that stupid book came out...and I don't think KW is the best GM in baseball either, Top 3-7 like Beane, but I would probably go with Terry Ryan and Schuerholz ahead of either.

Granted, Schuerholz is also an egomaniac and his book was probably the worst and least insightful I have ever read in my life.

It's hard to say how good Epstein and Cashman would be with a limited budget...it's like the Phil Jackson with a rebuilding NBA team question.

Dombrowski would have to go up there as well for all his work building the 2003 Marlins (even though he was gone by then) and now the Tigers.

White Sox Randy
08-03-2006, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the post. It was good and there was nothing wrong with it. I wasn't aware of that fact and it is very telling and interesting.

Unfortunately, the starting pitching isn't our only problem anymore.

caulfield12
08-05-2006, 11:48 AM
It's pretty obvious what KW was trying to do. The costs of adding starting pitching are so prohibitively high that he wanted to "build backwards" from the end of the game to make a bridge back to the 6th or 7th.

By adding MacDougal, that bought them one more inning that the starters wouldn't have to go...it's the classic Yankees/Twins approach. Now the Red Sox seem to have that feel as well...you don't want to be trailing them going to the 7th inning or beyond. Same with the Tigers and Zumaya/Walker/Rodney, although I keep expecting someone to beat Todd Jones again, and soon.

The problem is that Jenks looks to be having a dead-arm period again (his fastball was only a couple of MPH better than McCarthy)...and every member of the bullpen has looked vulnerable recently with the exception of Riske.

By the way, we're now 11 for our last 27 in terms of getting quality starts. Really, Garland should have given up only two if not for Rob M in CF.