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View Full Version : Greg Maddux to the Dodgers


Dan Mega
07-31-2006, 03:06 PM
For Izturis:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/31/monday.trades/index.html

SOecks
07-31-2006, 03:07 PM
Just reported on ESPN 1000 as well.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 03:08 PM
did not see that comming...

the end of his career is looking more like the end of his brothers with all this movement, sad. He should have ended with the Cubs or the Braves

boy is he going to look silly in that uni.. what's next Clemens a Devil Ray?

SOecks
07-31-2006, 03:10 PM
Good luck on the left coast Greg. Hopefully he can go out on a good team instead of wallowing in Cubbie blue to end his career.

viagracat
07-31-2006, 03:10 PM
Happy for Maddux. Always thought he was a classy guy. Dodgers have an uphill climb for the playoffs, but certainly less of one than the Cubs have.

We'll see him in the Hall of Fame as early as 2011. :smile:

Deebs14
07-31-2006, 03:11 PM
Now I can go back to liking him again. :cool:

buehrle4cy05
07-31-2006, 03:11 PM
Good to see Maddux finish his career on a contender. Izturis is a pretty good player, I guess he'll take over at 2B for Walker.

Domeshot17
07-31-2006, 03:13 PM
hate to say it but good trade for the cubs

Baby Fisk
07-31-2006, 03:13 PM
Nice to see Maddux wrap up his career with a contender.

BanditJimmy
07-31-2006, 03:13 PM
Damn good trade by the Cubs..... moronville got one right this time.

TDog
07-31-2006, 03:16 PM
Damn good trade by the Cubs..... moronville got one right this time.

Not as good as the trade for Garciapara.

Craig Grebeck
07-31-2006, 03:16 PM
Cesar Izturis is bad at baseball. Career line of .260/.295/.339 is miserable. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez. Awful trade, I thought they could at least get Joel Guzman.

Mr. White Sox
07-31-2006, 03:17 PM
Cesar Izturis is bad at baseball. Career line of .260/.295/.339 is miserable. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez. Awful trade, I thought they could at least get Joel Guzman.
Wait, you mean top prospect Joel Guzman? That Joel Guzman?

Ummm no.

Izturis is one of the best defensive players in baseball, and as much as they need a good bat they couldn't find one. He'll fit in somewhere in moronville.

Of course they'll need to get rid of Cedeno or Izturis by next season if they want some power somewhere.

DaleJRFan
07-31-2006, 03:17 PM
Cesar Izturis is bad at baseball. Career line of .260/.295/.339 is miserable. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez. Awful trade, I thought they could at least get Joel Guzman.

Yea man, and Greg Maddux is ****ing awesome... spare part for a washed up old timer.

Craig Grebeck
07-31-2006, 03:20 PM
I know that Joel Guzman is highly thought of, but the Dodgers soured on him after they sent him down recently. They don't like his attitude problems, and they have Andy LaRoche at 3rd in the future. They sorely NEEDED starting pitching, and at the last minute you would think they would get something, anything.

Pasqua's Posers
07-31-2006, 03:21 PM
personally, i hate Maddux. yeah he's good, but can't stand his demeanor and mannerisms. Plus, that whole "Who's Mark Buehrle?" statement from last year still makes me mad...

Hope he gets blown out, even though the Dodgers are my favorite NL club

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 03:23 PM
he's not just good, he in the top 15 starting pitchers off all time IMO. He had one year almost as good as Pedro's best season, (the best season for a pitcher ever IMO)

Fred Manrique
07-31-2006, 03:23 PM
I think it was a good trade for the Scrubs. He's a great defensive player and was having some success at bat before his major injury. Between him and Cedeno, they'll get one very solid infielder and can screw up the other position looking for hitting.

rowand33
07-31-2006, 03:24 PM
Cesar Izturis is bad at baseball. Career line of .260/.295/.339 is miserable. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez. Awful trade, I thought they could at least get Joel Guzman.

you're right, he is a poor man's Neifi Perez... that's why Izturis was only an all star once and only has one gold glove while Neifi has great accomplishments like his under .300 career OBP...

I mean, Izturis isn't awesome, but how do you call an allstar, gold glove SS a "poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez"?

give me a ****ing break...

edit: LOL @ rotoworld's comments:

According to CBS.Sportsline.com, Cesar Izturis is going to the Cubs in the Greg Maddux deal.

Yeah, that's just what the Cubs need. We suppose this meant Ronny Cedeno will move to second, opening up short for Izturis. It should be baseball's worst offensive middle infield.

bumptious96
07-31-2006, 03:25 PM
Good move for the Cubs here. Move Cedeno and then no more Neifi. Hendry's trying his best to keep Dusty from play "his boys."

Izturis will be their everyday shortstop.

Never really understood Cubs fan's love affair with Maddux. Maybe because he should have been winning all those Cy Young Awards for them when he was with the Braves. Ah, the logic of a Cub fan.

Craig Grebeck
07-31-2006, 03:26 PM
you're right, he is a poor man's Neifi Perez... that's why Izturis was only an all star once and only has one gold glove while Neifi has great accomplishments like his under .300 career OBP...

I mean, Izturis isn't awesome, but how do you call an allstar, gold glove SS a "poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez"?

give me a ****ing break...
Did you not read Izturis' line? He also has an sub .300 career OBP...

Jjav829
07-31-2006, 03:28 PM
you're right, he is a poor man's Neifi Perez... that's why Izturis was only an all star once and only has one gold glove while Neifi has great accomplishments like his under .300 career OBP...

I mean, Izturis isn't awesome, but how do you call an allstar, gold glove SS a "poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez"?

give me a ****ing break...

Because he's a stathead. He just looks at numbers and that's all he cares about. Anyone with a low OBP = worthless to him.

MadetoOrta
07-31-2006, 03:28 PM
IIRC KW tried to get him from the Dodgers last year. Ozzie and KW are very high on the kid. Good trade by the Cubs.

spawn
07-31-2006, 03:30 PM
I think this was a good trade by the Cubs as well, if they're planning to move Cedeno to 2nd. if they are still depending on neifi as the everyday second basemen, then I don't understand the need for Izturis, as I think they are set at SS with Cedeno.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 03:31 PM
Because he's a stathead. He just looks at numbers and that's all he cares about. Anyone with a low OBP = worthless to him.

For the most part anyone wiht an OBP below three is usually worhtless at the plate...

If the player is a great fielder and a team already has a great offense they can usually carry him though.

gbergman
07-31-2006, 03:32 PM
In Dodger blue, uggh this gives me a bigger reason to boo him now that he is on my Padres rival team.

rowand33
07-31-2006, 03:33 PM
Did you not read Izturis' line? He also has an sub .300 career OBP...

I didn't read his line.

I just saw the comparison of a guy that has won a gold glove and was an allstar to a career bum like Neifi Perez and found it absolutely ridiculous.

I don't care how bad of a htiter Izturis is. a poor, poor, poor man's Neifi? c'mon. three poors? neifi?

Neifi is good at absolutely nothing.

Izturis plays gold glove D at shortstop and put together a fine offensive campaign in 2004. .288/.330/.381 62 RBI, 25 SB.

really not that bad.

Craig Grebeck
07-31-2006, 03:35 PM
Because he's a stathead. He just looks at numbers and that's all he cares about. Anyone with a low OBP = worthless to him.
I'm sorry, but Izturis is worthless. He may be good with the glove, but so is Cedeno, and so is Neifi, he has no redeeming value for the Cubs. It is true, sub .300 OBP in the Cubs lineup=worthless.

Dan Mega
07-31-2006, 03:38 PM
He'll be touted as the next Ernie Banks or Ryne Sandberg, depending on where he plays.

SOXPHILE
07-31-2006, 03:43 PM
So...wait. What does this mean ? Are they breaking up the greatest rotation in the history of baseball ? I mean, come on, with him, Wood, Clement, Prior and Big Z, they're gonna go all the way, right ? They brought him over there to win the Series, and they're soooo close right now !

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 03:44 PM
So...wait. What does this mean ? Are they breaking up the greatest rotation in the history of baseball ? I mean, come on, with him, Wood, Clement, Prior and Big Z, they're gonna go all the way, right ? They brought him over there to win the Series, and they're soooo close right now !

I'd take Zambrano over just about any pitcher in baseball not named Johan.

Craig Grebeck
07-31-2006, 04:03 PM
To make things worse for the Cubs, he's owed 9.9 million over the next three years.

cbotnyse
07-31-2006, 04:22 PM
anyone know how cub fans are reacting to this?

Baby Fisk
07-31-2006, 04:26 PM
anyone know how cub fans are reacting to this?
Mixed reactions, more negative than positive. linky (http://mb9.scout.com/fchicagocubsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=28501.topic)

santo=dorf
07-31-2006, 04:33 PM
you're right, he is a poor man's Neifi Perez... that's why Izturis was only an all star once and only has one gold glove while Neifi has great accomplishments like his under .300 career OBP...

I mean, Izturis isn't awesome, but how do you call an allstar, gold glove SS a "poor, poor, poor man's Neifi Perez"?

give me a ****ing break...

edit: LOL @ rotoworld's comments:

According to CBS.Sportsline.com, Cesar Izturis is going to the Cubs in the Greg Maddux deal.

Yeah, that's just what the Cubs need. We suppose this meant Ronny Cedeno will move to second, opening up short for Izturis. It should be baseball's worst offensive middle infield.
Perez won a gold glove as well. I wouldn't call him a "poor man's" Neifi Perez because Cesar is very overpaid. Who cares if he was an all star once in his career?
Mark Redman was an all-star this year. Lance Carter was too.

Bad trade for the Cubs. I hope Ramirez opts out of his contract next year so the Cubs can have Cesar at 3B, Perez at Short, and Cedeno at second.

Is there anyone here that would take Cesar over Uribe?

pauliemyhero14
07-31-2006, 04:33 PM
cubs fans dont seem to happy.:D:

Kub_Killer_15
07-31-2006, 04:34 PM
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1315/phnewsbuehrlem2880917sr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Interviewers-"Mark Buehrle how do you feel about Greg Maddux getting traded on the north side?"

Mark Buehrle-"Who is Greg Maddux??"

pauliemyhero14
07-31-2006, 04:34 PM
i would take caeser over uribe.

SABRSox
07-31-2006, 04:49 PM
cubs fans dont seem to happy.:D:

Of course they wouldn't be happy to land a fantastic glove that will only help their pitchers out of many a jam. They're Cubs fans.

MushMouth
07-31-2006, 04:57 PM
definitely a nice deal for the cubs.

Maddux's contract is up, and getting a gold-glove level infielder is always nice, especially in a season where the 3 or 4 more wins that Maddux brings are absolutely inconsequential. Izturis, if healthy is exactly the type of guy you can live with at the bottom of your order. Great/fantastic defensively.

santo=dorf
07-31-2006, 05:08 PM
Cub fans at NSBB.com are hating this move big time. The Cubs sent Maddux along with $$$ for a guy who is an absolute hole in the lineup (like Cedeno, Murton, Jones against LHP, Neifi Perez, pitcher not named Zambrano, and Juan Pierre {assuming the Cubs bring him back and not rush Pie}) and has a contract like this:
06:$3.1M
07:$4.15M
08:$5.45M club option ($0.3M buyout)
That's terrible.

Here's is their worst case lineup:

Pierre
Izturis
Lee
Barrett
Jones
Murton
Perez
Cedeno
Pitcher

That's an awful, awful lineup. But Izturis and Perez have gold gloves!!

Craig Grebeck
07-31-2006, 05:25 PM
I didn't read his line.

I just saw the comparison of a guy that has won a gold glove and was an allstar to a career bum like Neifi Perez and found it absolutely ridiculous.

I don't care how bad of a htiter Izturis is. a poor, poor, poor man's Neifi? c'mon. three poors? neifi?

Neifi is good at absolutely nothing.

Izturis plays gold glove D at shortstop and put together a fine offensive campaign in 2004. .288/.330/.381 62 RBI, 25 SB.

really not that bad.
Telling me he's an all star tells me absolutely nothing. Neifi has gold gloves too, they are completely useless. The Cubs needed power and on base skills, they got another middle infielder who has the same skill set as Ronny Cedeno. In 2004, despite it being the best year of his career, his OPS was still .711 and his OPS+ was 88 (the benchmark for an average player at each position is 100). His defense is not enough to make up for his offensive failures.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 05:54 PM
Other All Stars:


Scott Cooper
Tony Womack
Scott Podsednik
Ken Harvey
Tony Batista
Royce Clayton
will cordero
Jose Offerman
joey Cora
Frenando Vina
Ozzie Guillen


being an all star doesn't always mean a whole lot.

102605
07-31-2006, 06:33 PM
Other All Stars:


Scott Cooper
Tony Womack
Scott Podsednik
Ken Harvey
Tony Batista
Royce Clayton
will cordero
Jose Offerman
joey Cora
Frenando Vina
Ozzie Guillen


being an all star doesn't always mean a whole lot.

Mark Redman

Foulke You
07-31-2006, 10:34 PM
I'd take Zambrano over just about any pitcher in baseball not named Johan.
I can put a list of AL pitchers together besides Santana that I'd take over Zambrano. Curt Schilling, Francisco Liriano, Justin Verlander, Jeremy Bonderman, and Jose Contreras to name just a few. Zambrano is good, yes, but he is "NL Central good". That division is so horrible right now that it is no doubt helping to inflate his win total. I doubt he'd be 12W-3L in the AL Central. Not to mention the fact that the guy's inability to keep his composure in tough situations makes him a liablity over pitchers who aren't space cadets like "Big Z" is. Is Zambrano an all star caliber pitcher? Absolutely. Is he the 2nd best pitcher in baseball behind Santana? Not even close, in my opinion.

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 01:15 AM
I can put a list of AL pitchers together besides Santana that I'd take over Zambrano. Curt Schilling, Francisco Liriano, Justin Verlander, Jeremy Bonderman, and Jose Contreras to name just a few. Zambrano is good, yes, but he is "NL Central good". That division is so horrible right now that it is no doubt helping to inflate his win total. I doubt he'd be 12W-3L in the AL Central. Not to mention the fact that the guy's inability to keep his composure in tough situations makes him a liablity over pitchers who aren't space cadets like "Big Z" is. Is Zambrano an all star caliber pitcher? Absolutely. Is he the 2nd best pitcher in baseball behind Santana? Not even close, in my opinion.

While I agree it may be a toss up between Liriano and Zambrano, I must also admit that I did not see the alarming spike in BBs for Zambrano this season. He is a fine pitcher though and suspect that he would K about 8 per nine in the AL and have an ERA in the mid 3's. He really does need to get the walks down though.

Nellie_Fox
08-01-2006, 02:14 AM
boy is he going to look silly in that uni.Please. How do you look sillier in a Dodgers uni than a Cubs uni? The Cubs uniform is the dorkiest in MLB. Nobody can look cool in a Cubs cap.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-01-2006, 02:29 AM
The thing I love most about this hyped-up trade is that both players suck.

TheKittle
08-01-2006, 03:18 AM
he's not just good, he in the top 15 starting pitchers off all time IMO. He had one year almost as good as Pedro's best season, (the best season for a pitcher ever IMO)

Did you miss Gibson's 68 season? Or Guidry's 78 season? Or Gooden in 85?
Or Orel's 88 season? Pedro had a great year, but all three of those years are better. And we haven't even mentioned any of Koufax's seasons.

palehozenychicty
08-01-2006, 07:38 AM
The thing I love most about this hyped-up trade is that both players suck.

Exactly. hell, maddux can't get anyone out in the nl central, no less. izturis...meh. uribe is still better offensively, even with the streakiness.

Craig Grebeck
08-01-2006, 08:45 AM
Izturis has 11 HR in 6 seasons. The Cubs will now have 3 players in their lineup with a sub .700 OPS. Great trade Jim. The Trib also said that he turned down a package of prospects so he could get Cesar.

PatK
08-01-2006, 08:50 AM
Izturis, if healthy is exactly the type of guy you can live with at the bottom of your order.

The last thing that team needs is a guy with the "if he can stay healthy" tag.

Craig Grebeck
08-01-2006, 08:55 AM
Did you miss Gibson's 68 season? Or Guidry's 78 season? Or Gooden in 85?
Or Orel's 88 season? Pedro had a great year, but all three of those years are better. And we haven't even mentioned any of Koufax's seasons.
ERA+ is a good stat to measure a pitcher over the course of a career or a single season. It takes into account the league average ERA as well as the ballparks the pitcher played in. Anything above 100 is above average, anything below 100 is below average.

Bob Gibson 1968: 258
Rob Guidry 1978: 208
Dwight Gooden 1985: 226
Orel Hershier 1988: 148 (Interestingly enough, his bst season was also 1985 where he put up a 172)
Pedro Martinez 2000: 285
Koufax's Best: 190

The stat is great because it takes into account the era in which the game is played. You can compare Gibson and Martinez because you can compare the average ERA at the time against theirs. It shows how much better they were than their peers.

Here's the single season leaders: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 01:19 PM
[quote=Craig Grebeck]ERA+ is a good stat to measure a pitcher over the course of a career or a single season. It takes into account the league average ERA as well as the ballparks the pitcher played in. Anything above 100 is above average, anything below 100 is below average.

Bob Gibson 1968: 258
Rob Guidry 1978: 208
Dwight Gooden 1985: 226
Orel Hershier 1988: 148 (Interestingly enough, his bst season was also 1985 where he put up a 172)
Pedro Martinez 2000: 285
Koufax's Best: 190

The stat is great because it takes into account the era in which the game is played. You can compare Gibson and Martinez because you can compare the average ERA at the time against theirs. It shows how much better they were than their peers.


Thanks for beating me to it... The year Pedro had an ERA+ close to 300 was the year his year was sub to and the league average was around five. He was around two full runs better than the guy in second.

Bob Gibson had his freakish season in a freakish season for pitching, what is really amazing about his year though is not his ERA but his complete games. I think he only was taken out 5 times over the course of the whole season, each time for a pinch hitter.


but Pedro's season is as close to perfection as you can get, no one's going to be close to two runs better than their nearest rival for a long long while.

Palehose13
08-01-2006, 01:27 PM
Other All Stars:

Ozzie Guillen

being an all star doesn't always mean a whole lot.

:?: Guillen was a mighty fine shortstop and had a nice career before the "power hitting shortstop" came en vogue.

TheKittle
08-01-2006, 04:00 PM
ERA+ is a good stat to measure a pitcher over the course of a career or a single season. It takes into account the league average ERA as well as the ballparks the pitcher played in. Anything above 100 is above average, anything below 100 is below average.

Bob Gibson 1968: 258
Rob Guidry 1978: 208
Dwight Gooden 1985: 226
Orel Hershier 1988: 148 (Interestingly enough, his bst season was also 1985 where he put up a 172)
Pedro Martinez 2000: 285
Koufax's Best: 190

The stat is great because it takes into account the era in which the game is played. You can compare Gibson and Martinez because you can compare the average ERA at the time against theirs. It shows how much better they were than their peers.

Here's the single season leaders: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

When Pedro pitched close to 300 innings and still has those type of stats then he will match up. The most innings he's ever pitched was 241. Orel had pitched 30 more innings in 88. Gooden about the same. Do I really need to mention how many innings Gibson pitched in 68 or Koufax pitched?

Craig Grebeck
08-01-2006, 04:23 PM
Please don't compare Orel Hershiser to Pedro Martinez ever again. In this day and age, no pitchers ever pitch over 250 innings, let alone 300. Do I even need to talk about how ridiculous of a hitters era Pedro was in?

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 04:42 PM
Please don't compare Orel Hershiser to Pedro Martinez ever again. In this day and age, no pitchers ever pitch over 250 innings, let alone 300. Do I even need to talk about how ridiculous of a hitters era Pedro was in?

Lots of people just don't want to hear about how good Pedro was. For 7 years he pitched better than any other pitcher in history.

Is he the greatest of all time? I don't think it is possible to say, is he one of them? For sure.

"wrong" sox fan
08-01-2006, 04:45 PM
:?: Guillen was a mighty fine shortstop and had a nice career before the "power hitting shortstop" came en vogue.

Guillen had an OPS+ in his career of 69. Meaning for his career he was about 31% worse than the league average. His best year saw him sport an OPS+ of 85, he was simply put a bad hitter.

He was not a very good basestealer as he got thrown out at a high clip.

He was a good defender and knew how to bunt.

He should not have been an all star.

SouthSoxFan
08-02-2006, 06:51 AM
Chicago Tribune Takes Izturis Propaganda Too Far...

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/08/chicago_tribune.html

Good stuff, especially the quote from the Cub fan blaming us.