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MadetoOrta
07-31-2006, 09:15 AM
Had dinner last night with some friends including an assistant coach of a big-time California Division I college baseball program when the Sox became the subject of conversation. The Coach, who hails from LA and is a life-long Dodger fan, couldn't understand the teeth knashing of Sox fans. Here was his take: the Sox went through their worst stretch in 5 years and they're .5 games out of the playoffs, it's August [which he equated to Round 3 of a golf tournament - separation time], the Sox starters 1-5 will pitch better in August and September and there's still plenty of baseball left on the schedule. He mentioned that his Dodgers had many seasons where they played like crap for a while, turned it up and made the playoffs. He said we need to relax and enjoy the race. He also commented that there isn't a team in baseball that wouldn't trade their starters for the Sox in a heartbeat. His final comment: even if the Sox don't make the playoffs he could see Buehrle win 20 games next year. That's baseball.

Baby Fisk
07-31-2006, 09:27 AM
The Sox are in a good position right now.

If you want to see some over-the-top tooth gnashing, go check out the Jays' boards. The fans over there are wailing over their impending doom (and rightfully so, but it really underscores the "frontrunner" nature of most Toronto sports fans. When things go well, they are all hardcore. At the first sign of hardship, they start bailing out of the plane).

viagracat
07-31-2006, 09:59 AM
Had dinner last night with some friends including an assistant coach of a big-time California Division I college baseball program when the Sox became the subject of conversation. The Coach, who hails from LA and is a life-long Dodger fan, couldn't understand the teeth knashing of Sox fans. Here was his take: the Sox went through their worst stretch in 5 years and they're .5 games out of the playoffs, it's August [which he equated to Round 3 of a golf tournament - separation time], the Sox starters 1-5 will pitch better in August and September and there's still plenty of baseball left on the schedule. He mentioned that his Dodgers had many seasons where they played like crap for a while, turned it up and made the playoffs. He said we need to relax and enjoy the race. He also commented that there isn't a team in baseball that wouldn't trade their starters for the Sox in a heartbeat. His final comment: even if the Sox don't make the playoffs he could see Buehrle win 20 games next year. That's baseball.

Excellent.

MadetoOrta, your table is ready. :smile:

miker
07-31-2006, 10:10 AM
The Coach, who hails from LA and is a life-long Dodger fan, couldn't understand the teeth knashing of Sox fans.
He didn't have to wait 88 years for Nirvana...but he does make a VERY good point.

kwolf68
07-31-2006, 10:21 AM
Good post, but how does he know the Sox pitching will be better in August?

MadetoOrta
07-31-2006, 12:43 PM
Good post, but how does he know the Sox pitching will be better in August?

Their collective experience/records. He recalled Herscheiser getting rocked for a month and then winning 4 in a row. His point was relax, stick with the team, they have the best team and the cream typically rises to the top.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 12:55 PM
There is no way to tell what the Chisox will do for the rest of the season, that's baseball.


One thing that can be said is that at this point in the season they have a very real shot at making the play offs.

They also have a very smart GM (I thought he was a dolt at one time and was proven wrong time and time again) and are in position to be one of the powerhouses over the next 10 years.

The Tribe
The Tigers (though I believe they've been lucky a bit)
The Angels
and the White Sox could very well be the future of the AL with Boston and NY having the adjust. Though my bias and recent steps taken by the Red Sox FO in revamping their farm inclines me to suspect Boston will be right there as well.

Lip Man 1
07-31-2006, 12:57 PM
As long as both the Yankees and Red Sox are able to spend vasts amounts of money they will be there.

Lip

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 12:58 PM
As long as both the Yankees and Red Sox are able to spend vasts amounts of money they will be there.

Lip

Not sure why ya lump Boston in with NY but that's a debate for another thread.

Ol' No. 2
07-31-2006, 12:59 PM
As long as both the Yankees and Red Sox are able to spend vasts amounts of money they will be there.

LipBe where? The Red Sox barely made the playoffs last year and it took a last week Cleveland choke to get them there. Both exited in the first round.

Foulke You
07-31-2006, 01:01 PM
The Tigers (though I believe they've been lucky a bit)

The Tigers are a very good ballclub. The only thing I would say they've been lucky with is getting 27 saves out of Todd Jones (5.50+ E.R.A). You don't do what the Tigers are doing by being lucky. People said we were lucky last year and I don't believe that crap that the 2005 Sox were based on luck. I have to give the Tigers credit, they are owning this division right now. For our sake, I hope that trend changes soon.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 01:03 PM
Be where? The Red Sox barely made the playoffs last year and it took a last week Cleveland choke to get them there. Both exited in the first round.

This thread is titled Percepective isn't it? How about we have some.

95 wins is darn good. They also did that with their closer sucking, their number 1 hurt and their number 2 getting his head almost torn from his shoulders from a line drive in the second half.

As far as the play offs are concerned what does a 5 game series prove? Not much usually. Last season the White Sox where the best team in baseball, but that's not becuase the won in October, they won in October due to be hot, healthy and were aided by a couple breaks (though without them I suspect they would have won anyway)

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 01:07 PM
The Tigers are a very good ballclub. The only thing I would say they've been lucky with is getting 27 saves out of Todd Jones (5.50+ E.R.A). You don't do what the Tigers are doing by being lucky. People said we were lucky last year and I don't believe that crap that the 2005 Sox were based on luck. I have to give the Tigers credit, they are owning this division right now. For our sake, I hope that trend changes soon.

I think we are defining luck in different ways. The 05 White Sox were indeed lucky, they had great years from Hermanson (a guy I've always loved but could never stay healthy) and had a year free of injury.

the 04 Red Sox were lucky

the 03 Marlins were lucky.

Any team that wins it all has to have a couple good bounces and some health.

I agree the tigers are a good team, I just think Verlander is getting by with a low K rate and they have remained very healthy

Lip Man 1
07-31-2006, 01:28 PM
No. 2:

Isn't the Red Sox payroll around 120 million dollars? The second highest in MLB (or is that the Mets)?

Like S.I. wrote in their pre season report the fact that both of those franchises spend that kind of money always puts them in position to make the post-season, that amount of money spent, allows them to make up for bad decisions, slumps and injuries. They simply go out and get replacement parts.

As long as both of those franchises continue to do what they do, they 'raise the bar' as S.I. wrote, in the number of wins needed to get to the post season for the 'wild card' team as well as for the most part taking two of the four available post season spots in the A.L.

The Yanks have a run of ten straight seasons in the playoffs, Boston (I think) has been in five or six times in the past ten years.

Lip

chisoxfanatic
07-31-2006, 01:30 PM
Had dinner last night with some friends including an assistant coach of a big-time California Division I college baseball program when the Sox became the subject of conversation. The Coach, who hails from LA and is a life-long Dodger fan, couldn't understand the teeth knashing of Sox fans. Here was his take: the Sox went through their worst stretch in 5 years and they're .5 games out of the playoffs, it's August [which he equated to Round 3 of a golf tournament - separation time], the Sox starters 1-5 will pitch better in August and September and there's still plenty of baseball left on the schedule. He mentioned that his Dodgers had many seasons where they played like crap for a while, turned it up and made the playoffs. He said we need to relax and enjoy the race. He also commented that there isn't a team in baseball that wouldn't trade their starters for the Sox in a heartbeat. His final comment: even if the Sox don't make the playoffs he could see Buehrle win 20 games next year. That's baseball.

I think the biggest reason why there's been teeth knashing is that we now know the feeling of winning it all don't want that great taste out of our mouths just yet.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 01:37 PM
No. 2:

Isn't the Red Sox payroll around 120 million dollars? The second highest in MLB (or is that the Mets)?

Like S.I. wrote in their pre season report the fact that both of those franchises spend that kind of money always puts them in position to make the post-season, that amount of money spent, allows them to make up for bad decisions, slumps and injuries. They simply go out and get replacement parts.

As long as both of those franchises continue to do what they do, they 'raise the bar' as S.I. wrote, in the number of wins needed to get to the post season for the 'wild card' team as well as for the most part taking two of the four available post season spots in the A.L.

The Yanks have a run of ten straight seasons in the playoffs, Boston (I think) has been in five or six times in the past ten years.

Lip

True Boston is at 120, they were at 130 and 135 before though...

The White Sox have gone up a to about 105 as have LAA and the Mets, the current Red Sox FO have no interest in trying to out spend NY, instead they look to be around 115 mil, only about 10 or 12% higher than the white sox. When they took over the team they had some massive contract to deal with, Manny and Pedro. Since taking over they've had to make some real hard choices including letting Pedro walk, letting Damon walk.

Sure Boston is a rich team but they are outspending the other rich teams by about ten percent, they also have to compete against a very smart team that is spending 80 million more then them each year, that's why this FO group has taken the time to build the farm more than the last group.

MadetoOrta
07-31-2006, 02:24 PM
Baseball needs a hard salary cap. Period. Comparing the NYY payroll with Pitts. and KC is ridiculous. Hard cap and a hard [and relatively high] minimum salary is warranted. [Insert beating a dead horse here]

nebraskasox
07-31-2006, 02:35 PM
Baseball needs a hard salary cap. Period. Comparing the NYY payroll with Pitts. and KC is ridiculous. Hard cap and a hard [and relatively high] minimum salary is warranted. [Insert beating a dead horse here]

Comparing the top to the bottom (NYY to FLA) is really ridiculous. There's something like five or six Yanks who INDIVIDUALLY make more than the entire Marlins payroll.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 02:39 PM
At the same time baseball has had different W.S. winners every year in the 2000s, this year we could see the WS champ not even make the play offs.

While I agree the yanks spending is out of control, baseball has been very competative.

One other thing to note: Even with a salary camp the yanks will have a huge advantage. They will be able to send all that money they were using on players to scouting and will spend more time creating their own superstars. They've won 26 rings, most of them before the 100 dollar pay roll on the back of great scouting, they could do that because of their name and their wallet.

Ol' No. 2
07-31-2006, 03:14 PM
True Boston is at 120, they were at 130 and 135 before though...

The White Sox have gone up a to about 105 as have LAA and the Mets, the current Red Sox FO have no interest in trying to out spend NY, instead they look to be around 115 mil, only about 10 or 12% higher than the white sox. When they took over the team they had some massive contract to deal with, Manny and Pedro. Since taking over they've had to make some real hard choices including letting Pedro walk, letting Damon walk.

Sure Boston is a rich team but they are outspending the other rich teams by about ten percent, they also have to compete against a very smart team that is spending 80 million more then them each year, that's why this FO group has taken the time to build the farm more than the last group.Exactly. A difference of $10-20M is imperceptible in performance. The Yankees outspend the Red Sox by $100M and are in second place. There have been some real stinkeroo teams with big payrolls. It's all but impossible to win with a tiny payroll, but once you get up above the mean, it's not that big a determinant.

the gooch
07-31-2006, 03:36 PM
One other thing to note: Even with a salary camp the yanks will have a huge advantage. They will be able to send all that money they were using on players to scouting and will spend more time creating their own superstars. They've won 26 rings, most of them before the 100 dollar pay roll on the back of great scouting, they could do that because of their name and their wallet.
You are right that they will get an advantage with their history. how many times have foreign players and free agents commented about the yankee history factoring in their decision. It might just be something crash davis told him to write down while sitting on a bus, but it will make a difference.

look at the NBA. when was the last time a huge free agent signed with a team in a Northern city? All things being equal, they will play in a warmer city.

I am in favor of a salary cap but it will never happen.

Daver
07-31-2006, 03:50 PM
Baseball needs a hard salary cap. Period. Comparing the NYY payroll with Pitts. and KC is ridiculous. Hard cap and a hard [and relatively high] minimum salary is warranted. [Insert beating a dead horse here]

The only purpose a salary cap serves is to guarantee the owners profit margin.

Lip Man 1
07-31-2006, 03:53 PM
Agreed.

Lip

Jurr
07-31-2006, 05:05 PM
Yeah, what they said.

This game is still going to have funny ways of screwing with people, regardless of the money involved. The Marlins of 2003 won with a light payroll and won it in 97 with a massive payroll. The Yankees have spent more money than anyone by a LARGE margin and have a 6 year run of no WS wins.

ARod is a strikeout a minute right now, and Joe Crede is getting paid a pittance comparatively with better play.

Keep the game the way it is. Good scouting and management is going to overcome big spending any day, period. Who would you pick to win a series right now....Minny or New York? I rest my case.

Salary caps....meh.

Dan H
07-31-2006, 06:39 PM
Sox fans are gnashing their teeth because the starting rotation has been inconsisitent for 100 games, putting pressure on a bulllpen that is not having a great year. The last two games in Baltimore, pitching-wise, were awful. If you score 20 in two games,you should win both, and win them pretty easily.

bigdommer
07-31-2006, 06:51 PM
I agree with the original post. All things considered, we are in a great situation. The pitching has been inconsistent for 100 games, but not bad for 100 games. Jose has been solid all year, Mark had a solid first third, Jon has had a solid middle third (save Saturday's start), and Freddy has been solid at times. Easier said than done, but consistency is a lot easier to acheive when the flashes of brilliance have been there. I would be a lot more worried if guys were hurt or couldn't throw strikes. But, MB is hittable and Javy can't get out of bad innings. Those things can be fixed.