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View Full Version : Is Ozzie doing a good job?


Playah
07-31-2006, 02:34 AM
What do you guys think- is Ozzie doing a good job this year? Are most of his decisions right or wrong? Do you blame him for the recent downturn?

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-31-2006, 03:09 AM
Where's the "Meh" option?

100 Year Itch
07-31-2006, 04:20 AM
Is there anyone upset in the dugout (and we have had our share of clubhouse "cancers")?

No.

By all accounts, it seems like today's players RESPECT Guillen, which is the most important statistic for measuring a MLB coach. (measure that, FOBB).

He's on a "bad streak" simply b/c anybody who he puts out there surrenders runs.

Deuce
07-31-2006, 05:45 AM
Given our record so far, it is hard to argue that Ozzie isn't doing a good job. However, leaving Javy in in the sixth after he gave up the homer was questionable.

On the other hand, leaving Javy in after hitting Patterson was just plain stupid. Oh well, he is still doing a better job than any other manager we have had in memory (well, in my memory, at least).

Deuce

jenn2080
07-31-2006, 07:17 AM
:threadsucks

Chips
07-31-2006, 07:18 AM
:threadsucks

I'll second that.

digdagdug23
07-31-2006, 07:35 AM
I'll second that.

So moved, and duly noted. I will add it to the minutes.

:D:

Gavin
07-31-2006, 09:01 AM
Given our record so far, it is hard to argue that Ozzie isn't doing a good job. However, leaving Javy in in the sixth after he gave up the homer was questionable.

On the other hand, leaving Javy in after hitting Patterson was just plain stupid. Oh well, he is still doing a better job than any other manager we have had in memory (well, in my memory, at least).

Deuce

The way he has handled Javier in his last two starts is all the evidence you need that something isn't clicking in Ozzie's head lately. It is pathetic when everyone in the room is screaming "NO!" and every one of those screams is validated--again!--by Javy's self-destruction.

TornLabrum
07-31-2006, 09:06 AM
The way he has handled Javier in his last two starts is all the evidence you need that something isn't clicking in Ozzie's head lately. It is pathetic when everyone in the room is screaming "NO!" and every one of those screams is validated--again!--by Javy's self-destruction.

Maybe he didn't go to the bullpen yesterday because the temperature on the field was over 100 degree (and in the 90s the day before) and he knew they'd be worn out. Maybe the result of his having to use them for so many innings the second day in a row in the heat was a problem.

viagracat
07-31-2006, 09:10 AM
Maybe he didn't go to the bullpen yesterday because the temperature on the field was over 100 degree (and in the 90s the day before) and he knew they'd be worn out. Maybe the result of his having to use them for so many innings the second day in a row in the heat was a problem.

That came up in the chatroom during the game yesterday. Maybe Guillen stuck with Vaz too long, but I understand his reasons for doing so. I just hope JC is on and doesn't have to take one for the team tonight, because the pen is just gassed, and it's hot in KC too.

Gavin
07-31-2006, 09:12 AM
Maybe he didn't go to the bullpen yesterday because the temperature on the field was over 100 degree (and in the 90s the day before) and he knew they'd be worn out. Maybe the result of his having to use them for so many innings the second day in a row in the heat was a problem.

Maybe the bullpen would be worn out, but everyone but Ozzie knew Vasquez was not going to get himself out of that inning. Or at least it seemed like that.

batmanZoSo
07-31-2006, 09:21 AM
Maybe the bullpen would be worn out, but everyone but Ozzie knew Vasquez was not going to get himself out of that inning. Or at least it seemed like that.

Ozzie lost the game for us yesterday, period. Leaving in Vazquez, bringing in Cotts, leaving in Cotts and even the getaway lineup.

After the 6th inning homer, come on man...it's ****ing obvious it's happening again. But no, he lets him hit a guy then put another one on before he takes him out. Then brings in Cotts who lets everyone come in, doesn't do his job at all. And of course he's allowed to start the next inning. :rolleyes:

Baby Fisk
07-31-2006, 09:31 AM
Where's the "Meh" option?
Agreed. It seems when the players are underperforming, it underscores Ozzie's bad decision making. Last year the overperformances tended to cover that up.

batmanZoSo
07-31-2006, 09:32 AM
Agreed. It seems when the players are underperforming, it underscores Ozzie's bad decision making. Last year the overperformances tended to cover that up.

Ha. So basically, we're screwed..

Baby Fisk
07-31-2006, 09:34 AM
Ha. So basically, we're screwed..
Time to start overperforming, boys!

The Dude
07-31-2006, 09:35 AM
So moved, and duly noted. I will add it to the minutes.

:D:
I'll third it!:tongue:

Gavin
07-31-2006, 09:35 AM
Ozzie lost the game for us yesterday, period. Leaving in Vazquez, bringing in Cotts, leaving in Cotts and even the getaway lineup.

After the 6th inning homer, come on man...it's ****ing obvious it's happening again. But no, he lets him hit a guy then put another one on before he takes him out. Then brings in Cotts who lets everyone come in, doesn't do his job at all. And of course he's allowed to start the next inning. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but it was hot outside, so...

Chicken Dinner
07-31-2006, 10:05 AM
Ozzie said he wasn't going to let Javy lose the game in the 7th, but he did it anyway. The stats clearly indicate that Javy shouldn't of been out there in the 7th. A lead off homer was all he should have needed.

CommanderPudge72
07-31-2006, 10:28 AM
Here is the deal from my perspective...I can't square something in my mind right now..here are the issues concerning Ozzie as I see them:

1. He seems to be really relying on the right/left match-ups. This, I believe, dictates the line-up and the substitutions and the pitching selections out of the pen. It has a solid philosophy, but I think it is just one of the criteria that need to be taken into consideration.

I think it has been coming at the expense of whose hot right now or defensive considerations...or offensive situations. (ie Mack playing pretty regularly in CF no matter what the park dimensions, or the streak that Andersen is on).

He may be trying to protect BA, but Ozzie will also run him in as a sub later in a game. From what I understand of baseball, pinch hitting is the toughest thing to do in baseball, I don't know how that protects BA.

2. I believe you can be positive about the team, but you must always also be realistic....(ie Realistic means things like Cotts has a real problem this year holding leads...perhaps with runners on, we go with Thornton instead of Cotts, at least for a while in tough situations, like yesterday.)

3. This is something that has really been bothering me lately....

To close the circle, I believe the slavish adherence to the leftie/rightee match-ups is limiting our capabilities.

(ie. Substituting Pods and Ozuna for eachother in late innings). We have been doing that allot lately depending on the match-up. Something to consider, but the problem is, we are substituting our speed for speed. In close games where we are usually looking to come back, that is critical.

Take for instance yesterday, I believe we subs Ozuna for Pods, but in the same inning Konerko reached first and he is the tying run in the 8th. Instead of putting in Ozuna as a runner, now, we have to live with out slowest runner on first as a tying run...makes our threshold for victory longer, because we need more hits, walks, errors to get him in because of a lack of speed. Thank goodness Dye covered us.)

Just some of my thoughts regarding things that management may be able to affect given the slump right now...somethings are out of our control and somethings we need to account for and work around.

Ozzie, I am sure knows all this, so I assume their are reasons for it. He took us to the series last year, so I am willing to let him run this out without mutiny....

Palehose13
07-31-2006, 10:33 AM
When I read some posts, the word "windsock" comes to mind.

Fake Chet Lemon
07-31-2006, 11:37 AM
Agreed. It seems when the players are underperforming, it underscores Ozzie's bad decision making. Last year the overperformances tended to cover that up.

Like when El Duque gets three outs after Marte walks the bases loaded. Every Sox fan alive knew to get Marte out after that first walk, most of us would have never brough him in to face the BoSox in the first place. Ozzie did get picked up a lot by the team last year.

I just don't get Ozzie's refusal to sacrafice bunt this year. He is still a good manager, but was superior last year obviously.

Lip Man 1
07-31-2006, 12:25 PM
I think Ozzie is still learning how to be a manager regarding his in game manuvers and how he uses his bullpen.

Lip

kwolf68
07-31-2006, 12:42 PM
He isn't having a good year managing, but that is compounded by the fact the pitchers are failing him.

If these guys could get outs, Ozzie would look like a genius.

I do think he managed horribly in one game in New York and the Texas game we lost 3-1 when young had the hit.

Those games he was just horrible, but overall the real problem is our guys aren't pitching the way they need to.

Hitmen77
07-31-2006, 01:09 PM
I voted "No". My main reasons:

1. Benching Anderson every 3rd game even though he's been hitting well for almost 2 months now. Most troubling is benching BA when Javier "walking time bomb" Vazquez is on the mound. Is he the only one who doesn't see the bloop hit to center followed by implosion coming? Did Ozzie forget that good defense helps win games and helps bail out pitching?

2. Poor decisions of when to make pitching changes. After Vazquez got away with giving up only 3 runs in the 6th against Minnesota, why bring him back to start the 7th?

BadBobbyJenks
07-31-2006, 01:10 PM
Boooooooooooooooo

Shift
07-31-2006, 01:31 PM
We are 2.5 years into his tenure:

-In the running for a playoff spot this year.
-Won the World Series last year.
-Career record of 243-184.

I guess he has done OK.

TornLabrum
07-31-2006, 01:42 PM
Ozzie said he wasn't going to let Javy lose the game in the 7th, but he did it anyway. The stats clearly indicate that Javy shouldn't of been out there in the 7th. A lead off homer was all he should have needed.

Yeah, but he also didn't expect having to burn out his bullpen (or probably more appropriately, melt them) the day before in a 13-11 game. Sometimes things don't go as planned.

TornLabrum
07-31-2006, 01:43 PM
When I read some posts, the word "windsock" comes to mind.

The sentence, "If only we win this year (2005), I'll be satisfied for the rest of my life," comes to mine.

mcfish
07-31-2006, 01:51 PM
We are 2.5 years into his tenure:

-In the running for a playoff spot this year.
-Won the World Series last year.
-Career record of 243-184.

I guess he has done OK.He still does what he does well. He just doesn't seem to learn from past performances. 2 years ago it was multiple first pitch grand slams from Mike Jackson, who couldn't hold an inherited runner to save his life. Last year it was bringing in Marte in pressure situations when everyone knew he was having trouble (not just ALDS). This year it is refusing to remove Vazquez when it's obvious to the rest of the world it's time to get him out of there. I just wish he could recognize patterns and try to prevent them.

Maybe if Javy comes out of the last 2 games before the collapse and has quality starts to build on, he could work on getting later into games slowly. Instead of 2 good but short starts, now he has 4 games in a row that left a bad taste in a mouth.

Palehose13
07-31-2006, 01:53 PM
The sentence, "If only we win this year (2005), I'll be satisfied for the rest of my life," comes to mine.

Yep. Lately it is looking like "Business as usual" (pre-2005) around here. Seems to me people forgot last year even happened.

mcfish
07-31-2006, 01:53 PM
Yeah, but he also didn't expect having to burn out his bullpen (or probably more appropriately, melt them) the day before in a 13-11 game. Sometimes things don't go as planned.Did it really work out much better the way it happened? Either way the bullpen goes 3+ innings - but instead of leaving with the lead and maybe something good to work with for next time, now Javy gives up the lead and any confidence he may have built - and the bullpen still has to go 3 2/3.

batmanZoSo
07-31-2006, 01:55 PM
Yep. Lately it is looking like "Business as usual" (pre-2005) around here. Seems to me people forgot last year even happened.

It is looking like "business as usual" (pre-2005) on the field as well. Maybe that has something to do with it? :dunno:

Sorry, but this is a new year. I revel in past glory around December.

Chicken Dinner
07-31-2006, 02:00 PM
Yeah, but he also didn't expect having to burn out his bullpen (or probably more appropriately, melt them) the day before in a 13-11 game. Sometimes things don't go as planned.

If that 's the case, why was Neal brought in when he threw 24 pitches on Sat and Thornton only threw 4? Even MacDougal only threw 17.

TDog
07-31-2006, 02:01 PM
Given our record so far, it is hard to argue that Ozzie isn't doing a good job. However, leaving Javy in in the sixth after he gave up the homer was questionable.

On the other hand, leaving Javy in after hitting Patterson was just plain stupid. Oh well, he is still doing a better job than any other manager we have had in memory (well, in my memory, at least).

Deuce

I think the Sox would have had a better chance of winning if Vazquez had stayed in the game. Cotts came in after the fifth inning with the lead and surrendered it. That is the definition of a blown save. The Sox had 2 of those Sunday.

Guillen said Saturday his bullpen wouldn't have anything Sunday because of the previous game in which Garland had to come out early because of a sinus infection. Riske and Thornton came through, but the starter needed to go deeper for the Sox to have a chance.

SOXandILLINI
07-31-2006, 02:11 PM
hell... i didn't think he did a great job last year, so guess what i think? to be fair, i don't think he's any worse of a manager than last year, the horses ( pitching staff )aren't getting it done. i do believe ozzie has let the success get to his head however.

Palehose13
07-31-2006, 02:17 PM
It is looking like "business as usual" (pre-2005) on the field as well. Maybe that has something to do with it? :dunno:

Sorry, but this is a new year. I revel in past glory around December.

I'm not saying that we should be content with just winning last year, but some people are posting around here like the Sox are still in a 80+ year drought without a championship. repeating is very, very difficult and the competition this year (in the AL) is very tough. The Sox are hovering at about 20 games over .500. That to me is not at all pre-2005.

IMO, a lot of people have lost perspective. The don't have the guts to stick around or still believe when it gets difficult. What did they expect, the Sox to go wire to wire for the rest of their lives? I'll start to get angry when the Sox return to being a .500 (or below .500) ball club.

These are the glory days of White Sox baseball. I'm going to enjoy it. Yes, all of it, the good and bad times.

bluestar
07-31-2006, 04:00 PM
I think Ozzie is good at some things. He obviously knows how the game should be played, and he seems to be pretty good at the psychological aspects of managing. I do not think he is a very good strategist, and I didn't think so last year, either.

I think the most annoying thing Ozzie does this year is play Mackowiak 1/3 of the time in centerfield. I think many of us will agree Mackowiak is not a good centerfielder, and should only play there on rare occasions. Personally, I fail to see why this is so obvious to everyone, but Ozzie insists on trotting him out there at least once a series.

However, the reason this is so frustrating is not so much the Mack is a poor centerfielder. It's that his poor centerfielder abilities are being brought to focus because our starting pitching is struggling. Last year (I know this is not last year, but this is only to make my point) our starting pitching was so good that even if a bloop hit was allowed to drop in, the pitcher would just shrug it off and say, "No worries. I'll get the next batter." This year, that is not happening. As others have pointed out, when Mack lets a ball drop in that Anderson might have caught (or any other defensive lapse occurs), it is as if everyone says, "Oh ****; here we go again."

It's all about the starting pitching, and if we ever get a few solid starts in a row, everyone will loosen up and Ozzie will suddenly be a brilliant manager again.

spiffie
07-31-2006, 04:20 PM
I'm just very surprised, and a bit saddened, that this poll hasn't been given the treatment some other rather odd polls have gotten with "This Poll Sucks" suddenly having something around 976,683 votes.

TornLabrum
07-31-2006, 04:21 PM
Did it really work out much better the way it happened? Either way the bullpen goes 3+ innings - but instead of leaving with the lead and maybe something good to work with for next time, now Javy gives up the lead and any confidence he may have built - and the bullpen still has to go 3 2/3.

Isn't better to TRY to save them than to burn them before it's necessary?

ZombieRob
07-31-2006, 04:27 PM
Maybe he didn't go to the bullpen yesterday because the temperature on the field was over 100 degree (and in the 90s the day before) and he knew they'd be worn out. Maybe the result of his having to use them for so many innings the second day in a row in the heat was a problem.

i think the heat did have something to do with it and the fact jenks pitched in 3 straight games,i know the make sense move is to go to jenks in that situation and its easy now to second guess ozzie,but thorntan was availible and hadnt thrown many pitches prior,and did riske pitch in any of the 3 games ? cant remember .

spiffie
07-31-2006, 04:28 PM
Isn't better to TRY to save them than to burn them before it's necessary?
Haven't we been trying to get Vazquez through into later innings since back when people still had to wear jackets to the game? At some point you have to surrender to the inevitable, no matter how appalling or against convention it might be.

ZombieRob
07-31-2006, 04:30 PM
I think Ozzie is good at some things. He obviously knows how the game should be played, and he seems to be pretty good at the psychological aspects of managing. I do not think he is a very good strategist, and I didn't think so last year, either.

I think the most annoying thing Ozzie does this year is play Mackowiak 1/3 of the time in centerfield. I think many of us will agree Mackowiak is not a good centerfielder, and should only play there on rare occasions. Personally, I fail to see why this is so obvious to everyone, but Ozzie insists on trotting him out there at least once a series.

However, the reason this is so frustrating is not so much the Mack is a poor centerfielder. It's that his poor centerfielder abilities are being brought to focus because our starting pitching is struggling. Last year (I know this is not last year, but this is only to make my point) our starting pitching was so good that even if a bloop hit was allowed to drop in, the pitcher would just shrug it off and say, "No worries. I'll get the next batter." This year, that is not happening. As others have pointed out, when Mack lets a ball drop in that Anderson might have caught (or any other defensive lapse occurs), it is as if everyone says, "Oh ****; here we go again."

It's all about the starting pitching, and if we ever get a few solid starts in a row, everyone will loosen up and Ozzie will suddenly be a brilliant manager again.

i think the very least that should have been addressed at the trade deadline(back up center fielder),now its going to be almost impossible to get someone through waivers now that 3 other teams are bunched up for the wildcard

Jurr
07-31-2006, 04:34 PM
I think the Sox would have had a better chance of winning if Vazquez had stayed in the game. Cotts came in after the fifth inning with the lead and surrendered it. That is the definition of a blown save. The Sox had 2 of those Sunday.

Guillen said Saturday his bullpen wouldn't have anything Sunday because of the previous game in which Garland had to come out early because of a sinus infection. Riske and Thornton came through, but the starter needed to go deeper for the Sox to have a chance.
I may be wrong, but didn't Vazquez give up a bomb to bring the game within one and then give up a knock right after that?

If Vazquez stayed in the game, he would've probably gotten shelled some more. I don't see how going to the bullpen took away from anything.

Furthermore, Jenks came in the game with A LEAD. The Vazquez thing had nothing to do with that. Jenks wouldn't have pitched the 9th, nor would Thornton have.

Jenks would've pitched the 9th regardless, and he had a lead. Bobby blew a save. That's what happened. Ozzie did not do anything wrong yesterday.

ChiSoxFan7
07-31-2006, 05:16 PM
Yes, we all are spoiled. We ARE 61-42! This record would have us in less than a game back in multiple divisions and leading in all of the A.L. I understand that everyone is worried but i think ozzie is doing just fine.

61-42
Detroit 70 34 .673 - Chi White Sox 61 42 .592 8.5 Minnesota 60 43 .583 9.5 Cleveland 45 58 .437 24.5 Kansas City 37 67 .356 33.


FIRST PLACE HERE
Oakland 55 50 .524 - LA Angels 54 50 .519 0.5 Texas 52 53 .495 3.0 Seattle 51 53 .490 3.5
1 game back
Boston 62 41 .602 - NY Yankees 61 41 .598 0.5 Toronto 57 48 .543 6.0 Baltimore 48 58 .453 15.5 Tampa Bay 43 62 .410 20.0


half back in the wild card and in 1st place for all other National League Divisions save the Mets, who we would trail by 2.


How could he not being doing well?

Chicken Dinner
07-31-2006, 05:22 PM
1st place is still 1st place no matter what division your in. We're in 2nd.

Mohoney
07-31-2006, 05:24 PM
Ozzie's not pitching out there.

mcfish
07-31-2006, 07:24 PM
Isn't better to TRY to save them than to burn them before it's necessary?Maybe for the first batter, and maybe even for Corey Patterson, but after Corey was hbp was the absolute latest possible point to take him out in my mind. And Ozzie left him in there still one more batter. And then he brought in the wrong pitcher - Cotts has not been all that good with inherited runners this year and had just gone 24 pitches the day before where Thornton had gone 4 pitches, but that is a different argument.

I just think that Javy needed to have a positive outing, rather than yet another game in which he surrenders his lead just before coming out. And I think that was more important than saving the bullpen, but we're surely going to disagree on that one.

mcfish
07-31-2006, 07:26 PM
Ozzie's not pitching out there.But he is deciding who pitches when and that is what this discussion is about. Nobody said Ozzie should have thrown a slider instead of the changeup. We said he should have taken Javier Vazquez out the the game earlier.