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View Full Version : Which Duo is Better?


crazyozzie02
07-30-2006, 03:13 PM
I was thinking about this for a while and i thought this is a thought that should be decided with my WSI brothers. So here is the question. Which duo is better: Thomas and Belle or Konerko and Thome. Given Thome and Paulie havent been together for as long as Thomas and Belle, I think they have the potential of being 1000 times better. Let the discusion begin.

sox1970
07-30-2006, 03:18 PM
Thome and Paulie--they're winners.

Jurr
07-30-2006, 03:23 PM
I was thinking about this for a while and i thought this is a thought that should be decided with my WSI brothers. So here is the question. Which duo is better: Thomas and Belle or Konerko and Thome. Given Thome and Paulie havent been together for as long as Thomas and Belle, I think they have the potential of being 1000 times better. Let the discusion begin.
Yeah....I agree. Thome and Konerko will combine to hit over 200,000 homers in the next couple of years, easily proving that they are 1000 times better. :redneck

LuzinskiFan
07-30-2006, 03:25 PM
Thornton and Jens the best duo in baseball right now!

Well, maybe 1/2 of that duo after today's game

ShoelessJoeS
07-30-2006, 03:26 PM
Since I'm assuming that Belle used steroids at some point in his career, I'll say our current 3-4 hitters.

Jurr
07-30-2006, 03:28 PM
Since I'm assuming that Belle used steroids at some point in his career, I'll say our current 3-4 hitters.
Oh, God. Don't go there, please? On that assumption, you couldn't rule out Thome doing them. Come on. Keep it fair.

Huisj
07-30-2006, 03:33 PM
I think at this point, it's got to be Konerko and Thome. Thomas and Belle didn't both have huge years in the same year when Belle was with the Sox. In '97, Thomas was a monster with a .349 BA, but Belle was way down from his normal year with a .270 average and 30 homers. The next year, Belle was an absolute monster with close to 50 homers and doubles, but that was the first year that Thomas showed slippage by only hitting .268.

MDF3530
07-30-2006, 03:36 PM
I said "Other". For several years, the Sox had quite a duo of the Big Hurt and Robin Ventura.

Law11
07-30-2006, 05:21 PM
Gamble and Richie Zisk...

"wrong" sox fan
07-30-2006, 06:57 PM
wow I am amazed at those results.

Two of the most feared hitters of the past 30 years losing?

In terms of production it's pretty clear that Thomas is the best hitter of all the players mentioned with Thome close behind and Belle close behind Thome and Konerko light years behind Belle.


If not for a bad hip, Belle would be a 1st ballot Hall of famer. Konerko is a good hitter but is much closer to Kevin Millar to Bell.

Patrick134
07-30-2006, 07:07 PM
wow I am amazed at those results.

Two of the most feared hitters of the past 30 years losing?

In terms of production it's pretty clear that Thomas is the best hitter of all the players mentioned with Thome close behind and Belle close behind Thome and Konerko light years behind Belle.


If not for a bad hip, Belle would be a 1st ballot Hall of famer. Konerko is a good hitter but is much closer to Kevin Millar to Bell.

As far as his chicago stay goes, Belle did his most awesome bat work in what can be called "garbage time".

"wrong" sox fan
07-30-2006, 07:26 PM
As far as his chicago stay goes, Belle did his most awesome bat work in what can be called "garbage time".

He hit 49 homers and had an OPS+ just north of 170 in his second year with you guys... I can't imagine he did all that damage in "garbage time".


the guy at his peak was better than Manny Ramirez at his peak, as a Red Sox fan and an Albert Belle hater it pains me to say it. (though Manny has been awesome much longer)

The Dude
07-30-2006, 07:52 PM
This has got to be the dumbest poll of all time!:D:

MISoxfan
07-30-2006, 08:04 PM
Thome and Paulie--they're winners.

What did Thome ever win? Thomas has more World Series rings.

I voted Other for Thome and Belle, they had better combined seasons than the other choices.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2006, 09:00 PM
Frank Thomas and Julio Franco.

Frank had his best statistical season - in the abbreviated 1994 season - with Franco protecting him. Frank played 113 games. During that time, he was on pace for more than 50 homers, 45 doubles and 140 RBIs. He had a 1.217 OPS and a 212 OPS+. He led the league in extra-base hits, number of times on base, ABs/HR, walks, runs, runs created, OBP, SLG and OPS, finished 2nd in homers, 3rd in total bases, AVG, doubles and RBI and fourth in hits.

In 112 games, Franco batted .319 with 19 doubles (assuming he would play in 150 games, he was on pace for 25), 20 homers (on pace for 27) and had 98 RBI (on pace for 132).

Daver
07-30-2006, 09:06 PM
Ruth and Gherig.

Huisj
07-30-2006, 09:21 PM
He hit 49 homers and had an OPS+ just north of 170 in his second year with you guys... I can't imagine he did all that damage in "garbage time".


the guy at his peak was better than Manny Ramirez at his peak, as a Red Sox fan and an Albert Belle hater it pains me to say it. (though Manny has been awesome much longer)

Belle hit horrible for the first month or so of '98--his average didn't break the .200 mark until almost the end of April, and he had very few homers over that span too. Even by the beginning of June, he was only hitting .260 with only 10 homers, and on June 1 the Sox were only 22-32. He was just average in June, bringing his average up to .270 with 17 homers by the beginning of July, and the Sox kept sliding further out of contention to a record of 33-49 on July 1. For the next 3 months, Belle hit out of his mind, and the Sox eventually scraped their way back to almost .500 by getting going 10 games over in September, and Belle finished at .328 with 49 homers and 152 RBI.

So yes, it was an unbelievable 3-month tear that he went on, and yes, it all came in garbage time.

And that's why the two year duo of Thomas and Belle was not so impressive. While Belle was on fire for 3 months of garbage time, another part of the reason why it was garbage time was that Thomas never got going offensively that year and hit just .265 with 29 homers (that and they had terrible pitching).

SouthSide_HitMen
07-30-2006, 09:30 PM
Ruth and Gherig.

Damn - beat me by ten minutes. :D:

Thomas & Franco circa 1994 (.729! & .510 respectively), Frank & Mags in 2001 (.625 & .546) and Thomas & Ventura (.626 & .520) had better slugging %s than any combined Thomas & Beltre pairing.

Gamble and Zisk were mighty impressive in the huge old park - .588 & .514 in my namesake season.

In case you were wondering - career numbers for Ruth and Gerhig are .711 & .632!!!

Foxx and Simmons (.625 & .642 in 1929) and Mantle / Maris (.687 & .620 in 1961) were other great pairings for a season.

JB98
07-30-2006, 11:26 PM
wow I am amazed at those results.

Two of the most feared hitters of the past 30 years losing?

In terms of production it's pretty clear that Thomas is the best hitter of all the players mentioned with Thome close behind and Belle close behind Thome and Konerko light years behind Belle.


If not for a bad hip, Belle would be a 1st ballot Hall of famer. Konerko is a good hitter but is much closer to Kevin Millar to Bell.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! How many 40-homer seasons does Millar have? Hell, how many 30-homer seasons does Millar have? Any seasons with 100 RBIs?

PK isn't as good at Thomas, Thome or Belle, but Millar? Millar can't hold Paul Konerko's jock.

Domeshot17
07-31-2006, 12:17 AM
Agreed. Thome Thomas Belle were on that ELITE level, Paulie falls into that 2nd tier of " very good, all star calibur" type. In no way shape or form is Konerko close to Kevin Millar who is in that "5th tier, no one will even trade for me" type.

That being said, the best Duo of all time can have many other contenders

the top 4 unmentioned that come to mind

Captain and Coke

Canseco and McGwire (should be DQ'd tho)

Manny and Ortiz

Peanut Butter and Jelly

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 12:59 AM
I said he was closer to Millar than Belle, not that Konerko was at the level of Millar.

ABs HR OPS OPS+ RBI
Player A: 3000 111 842 118 471
Player B: 3995 210 837 114 692
Player C: 5883 351 933 143 1239


Player A Kevin Millar
Player B Konerko
Player C ALbert Belle

A couple points:

Kevin Millar was a real good hitter in Florida, people underrate him. No he's not the player Konerko is, but thus far he's had a better OPS in his career, though his numbers are heading south.

Konerko is somewhat overrated, he's really not that amazing of a hitter. He is good, but by no means an elite hitter. His numbers are up over this season and last season but aside from that, he looks almost exactly like Kevin Millar, a good major league hitter.

People don't give Belle the credit he should get. I hate the guy, he cheated and knocked my team from the play offs. He's had more awful run ins with fans than any player I can think of and has stalked his ex gf, he's a creep. That said, Konerko is not near the level player Belle was.


Oh and often times it's a good idea to check the stats before posting


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH,

becuase if you don't, someone else will.

Chips
07-31-2006, 01:17 AM
Agreed. Thome Thomas Belle were on that ELITE level, Paulie falls into that 2nd tier of " very good, all star calibur" type. In no way shape or form is Konerko close to Kevin Millar who is in that "5th tier, no one will even trade for me" type.

That being said, the best Duo of all time can have many other contenders

the top 4 unmentioned that come to mind

Captain and Coke

Canseco and McGwire (should be DQ'd tho)

Manny and Ortiz

Peanut Butter and Jelly

Canseco and McGwire rank up there with the greats.

This thread seems quite familiar.

wassagstdu
07-31-2006, 06:51 AM
Podsednik and Iguchi (2005 first half version).

.

fquaye149
07-31-2006, 09:19 AM
Ruth and Gherig.

no way. espn told me manny and "PAPI" are better

miker
07-31-2006, 09:44 AM
I reluctantly voted for Thomas and Belle because they put up some absolutely sick numbers while they were together...of course Frank was Frank and Joey is a complete nut case.

I will gladly change my vote at the end of this season when Paul and Jim have not only put up great numbers, but have lead us to post-season glory!

KMKsuburbannoise
07-31-2006, 09:56 AM
Belle was a little over rated.

JB98
07-31-2006, 10:37 AM
I said he was closer to Millar than Belle, not that Konerko was at the level of Millar.

ABs HR OPS OPS+ RBI
Player A: 3000 111 842 118 471
Player B: 3995 210 837 114 692
Player C: 5883 351 933 143 1239


Player A Kevin Millar
Player B Konerko
Player C ALbert Belle

A couple points:

Kevin Millar was a real good hitter in Florida, people underrate him. No he's not the player Konerko is, but thus far he's had a better OPS in his career, though his numbers are heading south.

Konerko is somewhat overrated, he's really not that amazing of a hitter. He is good, but by no means an elite hitter. His numbers are up over this season and last season but aside from that, he looks almost exactly like Kevin Millar, a good major league hitter.

People don't give Belle the credit he should get. I hate the guy, he cheated and knocked my team from the play offs. He's had more awful run ins with fans than any player I can think of and has stalked his ex gf, he's a creep. That said, Konerko is not near the level player Belle was.


Oh and often times it's a good idea to check the stats before posting


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH,

becuase if you don't, someone else will.

I did check the stats before posting. You're forgetting that I hate Billy Beane and thus don't give a **** about OPS. It's all about HRs and RBIs. Like I said, Millar can't hold Konerko's jock. PK is a far superior run-producer. The numbers you posted prove my point.

I asked you how many seasons Millar has of 30 HRs, 40 HRs or 100 RBIs. You didn't answer. I assume that's because you know the answer is "zero" on all three counts.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 12:18 PM
I did check the stats before posting. You're forgetting that I hate Billy Beane and thus don't give a **** about OPS. It's all about HRs and RBIs. Like I said, Millar can't hold Konerko's jock. PK is a far superior run-producer. The numbers you posted prove my point.

I asked you how many seasons Millar has of 30 HRs, 40 HRs or 100 RBIs. You didn't answer. I assume that's because you know the answer is "zero" on all three counts.

Well at least you are consistent. Crude and close minded to ideas that don't worship a player whom you happen to like. Two questons:

1) what does Billy Beane have do with OPS?

2) Why would Kevin Millar, or anyone else for that matter care to hold another mans jock?

And now why your wrong.

As you may know, Konerko plays in a homer happy ball park, Millar has played in two parks that limit home runs with Boston and Florida. Millar was never a home run hitter, Konerko is. With out his homers Konerko would have very little value. To boot Konerko only had 100 more homers going into this season than Millar in 2000 more at bats.

I don't know how else I can convice someone who has pretty much said, "Don't use logic or evidence to try to convince me because I don't like that very much" but I'll try to keep it simple.

BA: .279 vs .289. Edge, Millar

OBP: .349 vs .365 Edge Millar

Slug: .488 vs .477 Edge Konerko and with ball park factors, edge Millar

Over their careers going into 2006 Millar simply got on base at a better clip than Konerko.

Over their careers Millar is pretty much the equal in terms of total bases/ABs or slugging to Konerko.

While yes Konerko has hit the super dooper number of 40 HRs and 100 RBIs he is simply not close to where Belle was as a hitter.

Konerko is better than Millar, Millar's stats look better than they really are because he was playing about 130 games a year with Florida and he was not overexposed. Age and scouting have pretty much did him in.

Konerko's stats look a little worse than they should due in large part to a horrific season that I can't explain. He is also only 30 and is still producing. However, he is really just a very good major league hitter. Nothing more nothing less. Through 2005, the stat runs created (insert I hate Billy beane comment here) has Konerko and Millar very close over their careers, though Konerko should pass him this season.

I regret saying that Konerko is closer to Millar than Belle. Even though it's true a lot of people don't seem to want to believe it. Maybe it's becuase when people think of Millar they think of the dork who started all that cowboy up crap in Boston. Let me just sum it up like this.

Albert Belle would have been in the hall of fame if not for a bad hip.

Kevin Millar was a good major league hitter.

Konerko is a good major league hitter.

Jim Thome is a future Hall of Famer.

Frank Thomas is a future hall of famer.

There is nothing wrong with being a Kevin Millar, a team full of 9 kevin millar's for 2000-2004 would score 1000 runs. There is nothing wrong with Konerko, a team full of Konerko's would score slightly more runs.

Both player will need a ticket if they ever want to enter the hall.

Domeshot17
07-31-2006, 12:31 PM
Ballpark factors dont edge Millar. Millar played in the right ballpark. He did most of his good things in Florida. Florida is the place to hit when you are a gap and doubles hitter. Konerko is early 30s and has a shot at 500 home runs. Millar NEVER had that. Konerko would be a great hall candidate if it wasnt for steroided up numbers around him.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 12:47 PM
Ballpark factors dont edge Millar. Millar played in the right ballpark. He did most of his good things in Florida. Florida is the place to hit when you are a gap and doubles hitter. Konerko is early 30s and has a shot at 500 home runs. Millar NEVER had that. Konerko would be a great hall candidate if it wasnt for steroided up numbers around him.


A great shot at 500, gotta tell ya the I'd put 5-1 money on that he does not.

Look at his most similar batters threw the age of 30

1: Hrbek
2: D. Lee
3:Carlos Lee
4: fJason Thompson
5: Fred McGriff


I'm a Red Sox fan and while I know people will disagree with me on this point I believe David Ortiz to be a better hitter than Konerko with much better chances at the Hall and 500. I also don't believe Ortiz will see either.

Domeshot17
07-31-2006, 12:49 PM
Never said it was a GREAT shot at 500, I did the math in the offseason dont feel like it now, but it was something like if he htis 40 for the next 6 years then 30 for 3 or and 1 year at 15 he would have 500 or something like that. I think lower home run guys will get more glory now because guys like Sosa and Bonds Cheated.

"wrong" sox fan
07-31-2006, 12:57 PM
Never said it was a GREAT shot at 500, I did the math in the offseason dont feel like it now, but it was something like if he htis 40 for the next 6 years then 30 for 3 or and 1 year at 15 he would have 500 or something like that. I think lower home run guys will get more glory now because guys like Sosa and Bonds Cheated.

How many players have ever hit 40 home runs 8 seasons in a row, if he does that he will belong... hell if anybody does that they would.

GoGoSoxReborn
07-31-2006, 01:08 PM
Maris and Mantle