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View Full Version : Bullpen still needs work - Cotts is terrible


Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2006, 02:42 PM
During today's game, when Javier gave up the solo shot in the sixth inning, I pleaded with my XM radio for Ozzie to pull Vazquez. Of course, he left Vazquez to put another runner on base. Finally he yanked Vazquez. I said to myself, "Watch, he'll bring in Cotts and Cotts will allow the inherited runner to score." I love being right.
:angry:

It's almost becoming automatic that Neal Cotts allows inherited runners to score. The sad thing is, it's not as if he's getting dinked and dunked to death; he's getting shelled.

What, exactly, does Ozzie see in him anymore, when it's clear Matt Thornton is so unbelievably superior and does not allow so many inherited runners to score? Is there a law that states that the Sox have to have a terrible reliever? They trade Marte over the offseason and Politte becomes the designated piece of crap. Then then release Politte and Cotts becomes the designated piece of crap (although his suck-fest started before Politte was released).

Hey Ozzie, just because Neal still has an sub-4 ERA does not mean he's an effective reliever.
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

2006's Neal Cotts = 2004's Mike Jackson

It's really a shame, too, because otherwise the pen is starting to shape up nicely. Thornton, MacDougal and Jenks really give the Sox a trio that can bring 95+ MPH heat to close out the last three innings of any game.

Hey KW, see if the Pirates will take Cotts and a prospect for Mike Gonzalez!

zmz723
07-30-2006, 02:47 PM
I want the cotts who struck out 2 batters in the world series with runners on base!

KyWhiSoxFan
07-30-2006, 02:49 PM
Ozzie said he would keep Vasquez on a short leash, and yet he lets him go out in the sixth, give up a home run, and allow two more runner before he yanked him. Everyone but Ozzie can figure out Vasquez should never go out to pitch the sixth.

To compound the problem, Ozzie brings in Cotts, who pitched yesterday. Before today's game, Ozzie said Riske was rested and could pitch two innings. I don't know why he did not bring in Riske to begin with.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2006, 02:57 PM
Im tired of watching lefties line frozen ropes out to left field on Cotts when he misses his spot by a foot.

On a side note, I think the Mackowiak experiment in CF needs to end. He missplayed two more balls today, one of which cost a run.

JUribe1989
07-30-2006, 02:59 PM
We should have just kept Marte. He was a lefty specialist that couldn't get lefties out and gave up all his inherited runs.

:angry::angry::angry:

KyWhiSoxFan
07-30-2006, 03:07 PM
Dye just picked up the entire bullpen with that 3 run HR. If they don't close out this game, shame on them.

crazyozzie02
07-30-2006, 03:07 PM
I can't agree more with you guys. I cringe everytime Cotts comes out. Thats why i think that no matter what, Kenny needs to go out and get one more reliever, or at least see what our minors has to offer. I mean there is always Boone Logan. What can we avoid the dreaded combo of Javy (who i think can still become a decent pitcher) and Cotts. How much do the cubs want for Maddux?

crazyozzie02
07-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Im tired of watching lefties line frozen ropes out to left field on Cotts when he misses his spot by a foot.

On a side note, I think the Mackowiak experiment in CF needs to end. He missplayed two more balls today, one of which cost a run.

Amen to that. I think that Anderson is coming around and all of the people who hate BA should be shutting up soon, but of course Ozzie is preventing that from happening. How can a kid get better and get used to playing full-time when he is always thinking in the back of his mind if hes starting or not:mad:

QCIASOXFAN
07-30-2006, 03:13 PM
Cotts scares the living **** out of me every time he comes in lately.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-30-2006, 03:13 PM
Amen to that. I think that Anderson is coming around and all of the people who hate BA should be shutting up soon, but of course Ozzie is preventing that from happening. How can a kid get better and get used to playing full-time when he is always thinking in the back of his mind if hes starting or not:mad:

Why would Ozzie rest BA when they have a lefty on the mound? It makes no sense whatsoever. We start four lefties (and not one is named Thome) when they have a lefty with a 7 ERA.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-30-2006, 03:16 PM
I think Thornton has replaced Cotts as the LH Set-up man. Anyone else notice that?

QCIASOXFAN
07-30-2006, 03:17 PM
I think Thornton has replaced Cotts as the LH Set-up man. Anyone else notice that?I took notice of this about....3 months ago.

crazyozzie02
07-30-2006, 03:17 PM
Yes, Yes I have. And its a good thing too

sox1970
07-30-2006, 03:21 PM
I can't agree more with you guys. I cringe everytime Cotts comes out. Thats why i think that no matter what, Kenny needs to go out and get one more reliever, or at least see what our minors has to offer. I mean there is always Boone Logan. What can we avoid the dreaded combo of Javy (who i think can still become a decent pitcher) and Cotts. How much do the cubs want for Maddux?

Don't dismiss Logan. He's pitching great for Charlotte, and he'll be back on the Sox bullpen--maybe in September or next year. Hopefully he's learned some things about fielding his position.

Jurr
07-30-2006, 03:25 PM
I took notice of this about....3 months ago.
Dammit, I hate when people like you make posts like this, catch me totally unaware, thus making me spit out the beverage I'm currently enjoying. Classic stuff!!!!

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2006, 03:28 PM
I think Thornton has replaced Cotts as the LH Set-up man. Anyone else notice that?

Yes.

The problem is, sometimes a sixth inning with one out and two runners on is a sufficiently crucial situation that the superior lefty - in this case Thornton - should be the one called upon to put out the fire.

At the very least, if Ozzie trusts Thornton more than Cotts to set up Jenks, perhaps he should trust Thornton in what might be an even more critical situation than coming into the eighth inning with the bases empty.

Cotts has been bad enough that he should be relegated to garbage time now.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-30-2006, 03:34 PM
Don't dismiss Logan. He's pitching great for Charlotte, and he'll be back on the Sox bullpen--maybe in September or next year. Hopefully he's learned some things about fielding his position.

I agree. Logan will be back. He's young. So far, he has 39 strikeouts in 28 2/3 innings, and allowed just 22 hits.

QCIASOXFAN
07-30-2006, 03:44 PM
Dammit, I hate when people like you make posts like this, catch me totally unaware, thus making me spit out the beverage I'm currently enjoying. Classic stuff!!!!Shocking news isn't it.

ShoelessJoeS
07-30-2006, 03:46 PM
I agree. Logan will be back. He's young. So far, he has 39 strikeouts in 28 2/3 innings, and allowed just 22 hits.And it's not as if he was pitching bad, he just didn't know how to field his position. Hopefully some time in AAA corrected that.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-30-2006, 03:47 PM
Well, the bullpen blew it. Jenks was in for the third straight day and was not effective. I'm sure there is someone with some stats out there on how Jenks does when fresh vs. when he pitches in back to back games. I would like to know, because he was not effective yesterday, either.

Thornton only threw 7 pitches. We shoud have left him in.

batmanZoSo
07-30-2006, 03:48 PM
Ozzie just sucked today, period. He should know who to--and who not to--give the ball to at this point.

ZombieRob
07-30-2006, 03:48 PM
Pitching staff as a whole needs work ...if The Royals shop Redman anyone interested?

southwstchi4life
07-30-2006, 03:50 PM
Cotts is terribel. Im starting to get sick of him. 0 and 2 and leaves one right down the plate. disgusting

rookie
07-30-2006, 03:52 PM
This pitching staff must be a nightmare for Ozzie to manage. He'd have to be a genius. All the guys have the "stuff" but are inconsistent for no reason, doesn't matter if it is the starters or the relief pitchers. It's probably like playing Russian Roulette.

Our offense is trying to bail out the pitching. We can't do this without our pitching.

ZombieRob
07-30-2006, 03:53 PM
Wheres Dr Don when ya need him?

southside rocks
07-30-2006, 03:58 PM
This pitching staff must be a nightmare for Ozzie to manage. He'd have to be a genius. All the guys have the "stuff" but are inconsistent for no reason, doesn't matter if it is the starters or the relief pitchers. It's probably like playing Russian Roulette.

Our offense is trying to bail out the pitching. We can't do this without our pitching.

Agree completely. :(:

TheOldRoman
07-30-2006, 04:00 PM
This pitching staff must be a nightmare for Ozzie to manage. He'd have to be a genius. All the guys have the "stuff" but are inconsistent for no reason, doesn't matter if it is the starters or the relief pitchers. It's probably like playing Russian Roulette.

Our offense is trying to bail out the pitching. We can't do this without our pitching.
Bull****. Our offense has been horrible lately. 2 runs off a mediocre starter on Friday, 4 runs off of a HORRIBLE starter today - that doesn't get the job done. When Bruce Chen is pitching, anything less than 8 runs through 5 is a failure. As someone said in the gamethread, you shouldn't need a late inning comeback when you are facing Chen.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-30-2006, 04:06 PM
Bull****. Our offense has been horrible lately. 2 runs off a mediocre starter on Friday, 4 runs off of a HORRIBLE starter today - that doesn't get the job done. When Bruce Chen is pitching, anything less than 8 runs through 5 is a failure. As someone said in the gamethread, you shouldn't need a late inning comeback when you are facing Chen.

Yeah, but I still can't figure out why we started 4 lefties against Chen. That really helped him out, I think. I know it's getaway day, but we still have an off day Monday.

MrX
07-30-2006, 04:12 PM
but we still have an off day Monday.
No they don't

Lip Man 1
07-30-2006, 04:17 PM
There was speculation before today's game that because the bullpen had been taxed Saturday, Ozzie may have had to leave Javier in longer then he wanted to.

I don't know what to make on Cotts. Right now it looks like 2005 was a fluke for him (much like Politte) but it's hard to say that for sure because he doesn't have much of a track record to go by.

I do agree that I think Ozzie is still a work in progress in determining his bullpen and when to take then out. I also still feel he tries to copy Tony LaRussa far to often with that 'matchup' garbage.

Lip

rookie
07-30-2006, 04:18 PM
Bull****. Our offense has been horrible lately. 2 runs off a mediocre starter on Friday, 4 runs off of a HORRIBLE starter today - that doesn't get the job done. When Bruce Chen is pitching, anything less than 8 runs through 5 is a failure. As someone said in the gamethread, you shouldn't need a late inning comeback when you are facing Chen.

We had 13 runs yesterday, 7 today with 12 hits. I'm not going to hang this one on the offense. If the bullpen hadn't wasted all those "extra runs" yesterday, they wouldn't have been overworked for today. That's my opinion.

BeviBall!
07-30-2006, 04:19 PM
We had 13 runs yesterday, 7 today with 12 hits. I'm not going to hang this one on the offense. If the bullpen hadn't wasted all those "extra runs" yesterday, they wouldn't have been overworked for today. That's my opinion.

Exactly. 7 runs is plenty for this team to win.

kwolf68
07-30-2006, 04:21 PM
Bullpen is no worse than the starting pitching. Watching our starters is painful...they just don't look very good.

BanditJimmy
07-30-2006, 04:22 PM
The bullpen was extremely over-worked this series. I am not going to blame them of this loss today.


The damn starters need to start taking the game into the 7th inning and even the 8th. This is how we won last year.


We are the only staff that does not skip the 5th starter on off days, therefore extra rest is handed to these guys every week. There is no reason why these guys cannot pitch deep into games. IF they suck and can't get batters out, then that's a different problem and unfortunately way too much money is invested in these guys to pull the plug on any of them.

DickAllen72
07-30-2006, 04:22 PM
Exactly. 7 runs is plenty for this team to win.

Apparently not. :cool:

BeviBall!
07-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Apparently not. :cool:

I knew I should've put "should be plenty". Damn it all! :D:

Soxfanspcu11
07-30-2006, 07:50 PM
You know what's funny? I have always heard stories that Neal Cotts was a total douche in person, that he was rude and such. And I always used to let it slide because he USED to be so damn good.

Now that he is the worst pitcher on our staff, I can't stand the guy.

Hopefully, KW will find a replacement for him via a trade, or just bring someone up.

As someone else said, all Cotts is good for is garbage time, like a left handed Monterro.

I hope I wake up tommorow and hear that Cotts was DFA or traded. I can't believe I just said that, I had so much faith in him!:whiner:

Corlose 15
07-30-2006, 08:18 PM
This thread is absolutely ridiculous. People are talking about DFAing Cotts and replacing him with Boone Logan? GMAB. People on this board were talking about how we had to stick w/ Politte and his garbage 8.3 ERA because we owed it to him for last year and now they want to get rid of Cotts. Cotts was better last year than Politte and was a hell of a lot better than him in the playoffs. Not to mention right now his ERA is a whopping 3.14.

I know he hasn't been as good this year at inheriting runners but he was unbelieveable last year. He has been solid this year and everybody in here needs to relax. He's also not the only member of the staff struggling right now. Hell, why don't we DFA Jenks too his ERA is 3.42 and he sure was lights outs today and has been since the break.:rolleyes:

jongarlandlover
07-30-2006, 08:21 PM
You know what's funny? I have always heard stories that Neal Cotts was a total douche in person, that he was rude and such. And I always used to let it slide because he USED to be so damn good.

Really? I've never heard anything like that.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2006, 08:24 PM
Cotts also needs to stop with the attitude when Ozzie finally comes out to yank him. I can understand if he is pissed at himself - HE OUGHT TO BE PISSED AT HIMSELF FOR PITCHING SO TERRIBLY - but it often seems like he's pissed at Ozzie for pulling him out of the game.

Does MLB - or the FOBB - keep official statistics on the percentage of inherited runners that individual relievers allow to score?

digdagdug23
07-30-2006, 08:30 PM
You know what's funny? I have always heard stories that Neal Cotts was a total douche in person, that he was rude and such. And I always used to let it slide because he USED to be so damn good.

Now that he is the worst pitcher on our staff, I can't stand the guy.

Hopefully, KW will find a replacement for him via a trade, or just bring someone up.

As someone else said, all Cotts is good for is garbage time, like a left handed Monterro.

I hope I wake up tommorow and hear that Cotts was DFA or traded. I can't believe I just said that, I had so much faith in him!:whiner:

LMAO that's like saying that because you HEARD that Tony Kukoc was an a** you don't like him anymore. He has had a less than stellar last few outing, but getting rid of him would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Since when does a reputation for being less than friendly get you a ticket off the team? If this were the case, my boss woulda kicked my arse to the curb a few years ago. :redneck

Pierzynski 12
07-30-2006, 08:33 PM
Cotts has been awful. No doubt.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2006, 08:37 PM
In the post-game thread, Lip quoted the statistic that Cotts has allowed 14 or 47, or 29.78%, of inherited runners to score.

It seems much worse than that, but still it is terrible. I guess ealier this season he was made to look much better pitching in the same pen with the likes of Politte, Logan and Nelson.

Cotts really is filling the Damaso Marte role this year. Whenever Ozzie needs/wants to let the opposition score a run, reach base via walk or HBP, or give up an untimely extra-base hit, he summons Cotts.

Soxfanspcu11
07-30-2006, 09:56 PM
LMAO that's like saying that because you HEARD that Tony Kukoc was an a** you don't like him anymore. He has had a less than stellar last few outing, but getting rid of him would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Since when does a reputation for being less than friendly get you a ticket off the team? If this were the case, my boss woulda kicked my arse to the curb a few years ago. :redneck

Did you read what I said? I didn't say that being a douchebag should get you kicked off the team, I said your play should. But I said the fact that he is a douchebag makes it easier to take.

Example: Cliff Polite seemed like a nice guy and I heard good things about him, translation=it hurt to see him go, even though he should have.

And to that other poster in this thread, I have heard a few different stories of people running into Cotts, at least one of this very board. The one that comes to mind the most is when someone bumped into Cotts at a bar when Cotts was there with some friends. The guy went up to Cotts and asked for his autograph and Cotts told him to "**** off". I personally have seen him act like his **** don't stink down in the bullpen.

So the point I was making is, performance is first and foremost. If your doing your job, we will let things slide. However if you are not showing up, then we need to get rid of you, and the fact that you carried yourself like a piece of **** makes it less painful to say goodbye.

JB98
07-30-2006, 10:20 PM
We should have just kept Marte. He was a lefty specialist that couldn't get lefties out and gave up all his inherited runs.

:angry::angry::angry:

Marte was far worse because he walked guys. Cotts really is struggling right now. All the guys who hit the ball hard off him today were left-handed. Honestly, I think he's better off facing right-handed hitters.

Chicken Dinner
07-31-2006, 08:28 AM
Ozzie said he would keep Vasquez on a short leash, and yet he lets him go out in the sixth, give up a home run, and allow two more runner before he yanked him. Everyone but Ozzie can figure out Vasquez should never go out to pitch the sixth.

To compound the problem, Ozzie brings in Cotts, who pitched yesterday. Before today's game, Ozzie said Riske was rested and could pitch two innings. I don't know why he did not bring in Riske to begin with.

If this is the way Ozzie restores confidence in the club, by not doing what he said he'd do, well then the water is coming in faster than he can bail. Ozzie clearly is the one to blame here, no one else.

Madvora
07-31-2006, 09:00 AM
If this is the way Ozzie restores confidence in the club, by not doing what he said he'd do, well then the water is coming in faster than he can bail. Ozzie clearly is the one to blame here, no one else.
Ozzie seems to be handling it well this year. I just hope he doesn't have another meltdown like in that September stretch last year, where he was threatening to quit and never come back if they won the World Series.
Right now, he looks like he's got his head on straight and I hope he can keep it that way because the pressure of this team STILL playing like crap has got to be killing him.

WMG
07-31-2006, 09:04 AM
I saw a stat on Cotts' fly ball numbers early this year.... wish I could find it for you guys. It was on a fantasy baseball board right after Jenks was struggling in Spring Training and Ozzie commented about Cotts possibly getting some chances to close games.

The stat was comparing Cotts' number of deep fly ball outs to the mlb average % of these fly balls that go for home runs.

Cotts had a only given up a few homers in '05 but the stat was saying he should have given up at least 20.

Sorry if this isn't making much sense but the author of the post was explaining how he thought Cotts was just throwing BP last year and that he was just dodging bullets.

I think early last year Ozzie and Coop just preached throwing strikes.... and it worked great! Numero Uno, we had an excellent defense, which is absolutely not the case this year. Secondly, for most of the year teams may or may not have seen this strategy coming and finally, it worked great because KW brought players that could throw strikes.

What happened near the end of last season??? We started getting knocked around, luckily the sox ran into some teams that weren't exactly dropping all kinds of runs in the playoffs and we won the WS. Now obviously that isn't the only reason the won.

I truly believe that Buehrle, Cotts, Hermanson, Garcia and Politte were all just challenging hitters and the Sox caught some teams off guard and in some cases just lucked out last year, and it has caught up with them in '06.

Now this year, teams are ready for this and are jumping all over us. Who is pitching well for the Sox this year???? Garland, Contreras.... which two White Sox pitchers have awlays had the best "stuff", and wouldn't necessarily have to rely on just throwing it over and letting them hit it??

What did KW do this season? Went and got Riske and MacDougal, two relievers with "stuff".

Obviously, I am not saying that Cotts and Buehrle are garbage but I think their pitching style and strategy my just be catching up on them a tad and they need to change things up a bit.

russ99
07-31-2006, 09:06 AM
I can't remember the last time Cotts was put into a game with no one on base. Cotts hasn't really done well, but Ozzie's put him into the worst sort of jams, and we can't expect him to come out of it perfectly. I think Cotts should be used as the team's LOOGY, anything else is asking for trouble.

batmanZoSo
07-31-2006, 09:12 AM
I saw a stat on Cotts' fly ball numbers early this year.... wish I could find it for you guys. It was on a fantasy baseball board right after Jenks was struggling in Spring Training and Ozzie commented about Cotts possibly getting some chances to close games.

The stat was comparing Cotts' number of deep fly ball outs to the mlb average % of these fly balls that go for home runs.

Cotts had a only given up a few homers in '05 but the stat was saying he should have given up at least 20.

Sorry if this isn't making much sense but the author of the post was explaining how he thought Cotts was just throwing BP last year and that he was just dodging bullets.

I think early last year Ozzie and Coop just preached throwing strikes.... and it worked great! Numero Uno, we had an excellent defense, which is absolutely not the case this year. Secondly, for most of the year teams may or may not have seen this strategy coming and finally, it worked great because KW brought players that could throw strikes.

What happened near the end of last season??? We started getting knocked around, luckily the sox ran into some teams that weren't exactly dropping all kinds of runs in the playoffs and we won the WS. Now obviously that isn't the only reason the won.

I truly believe that Buehrle, Cotts, Hermanson, Garcia and Politte were all just challenging hitters and the Sox caught some teams off guard and in some cases just lucked out last year, and it has caught up with them in '06.

Now this year, teams are ready for this and are jumping all over us. Who is pitching well for the Sox this year???? Garland, Contreras.... which two White Sox pitchers have awlays had the best "stuff", and wouldn't necessarily have to rely on just throwing it over and letting them hit it??

What did KW do this season? Went and got Riske and MacDougal, two relievers with "stuff".

Obviously, I am not saying that Cotts and Buehrle are garbage but I think their pitching style and strategy my just be catching up on them a tad and they need to change things up a bit.
I think Cotts's entire career has been dodging bullets. I mean what does he have? A straight 90 mph fastball? If he wasn't lefthanded he'd be using that ISU degree...or he would've stayed to get it.

JB98
07-31-2006, 10:45 AM
I think Cotts's entire career has been dodging bullets. I mean what does he have? A straight 90 mph fastball? If he wasn't lefthanded he'd be using that ISU degree...or he would've stayed to get it.

His fastball isn't straight. His cutter works well on right-handed hitters. It doesn't work so well on lefties, as we've seen recently. He can't get a left-handed hitter out.

The Dude
07-31-2006, 11:22 AM
During today's game, when Javier gave up the solo shot in the sixth inning, I pleaded with my XM radio for Ozzie to pull Vazquez. Of course, he left Vazquez to put another runner on base. Finally he yanked Vazquez. I said to myself, "Watch, he'll bring in Cotts and Cotts will allow the inherited runner to score." I love being right.
:angry:

It's almost becoming automatic that Neal Cotts allows inherited runners to score. The sad thing is, it's not as if he's getting dinked and dunked to death; he's getting shelled.

What, exactly, does Ozzie see in him anymore, when it's clear Matt Thornton is so unbelievably superior and does not allow so many inherited runners to score? Is there a law that states that the Sox have to have a terrible reliever? They trade Marte over the offseason and Politte becomes the designated piece of crap. Then then release Politte and Cotts becomes the designated piece of crap (although his suck-fest started before Politte was released).

Hey Ozzie, just because Neal still has an sub-4 ERA does not mean he's an effective reliever.
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

2006's Neal Cotts = 2004's Mike Jackson

It's really a shame, too, because otherwise the pen is starting to shape up nicely. Thornton, MacDougal and Jenks really give the Sox a trio that can bring 95+ MPH heat to close out the last three innings of any game.

Hey KW, see if the Pirates will take Cotts and a prospect for Mike Gonzalez!

Nice post. Very sad but true. The **** ups by Cotts and Pods can't be taken lightly. Cotts is resembling Cliff these days and it isn't pretty to watch. I said the same thing when Cotts came in with the inherited runners on and was hoping he could prove me wrong.:angry:

hawkjt
07-31-2006, 11:45 AM
As we have all heard Hawk say a million times- Cotts has a deceptive motion.

What I have seen is that Cotts has struggled to pitch inside to leftys his whole career because of that motion. Just like Damoso always did. They hit batters and the umps do not give them a good strike zone because of the sidewinder look.

Cotts has that fastball that bears in on the hands of rightys and has success against those rightys.

Just a slump- but it hurts.

StatHead21
07-31-2006, 12:47 PM
When the Starters pitch better the Bullpen will be better.

We were spoiled last year with our bullpen. The fact of the matter is starting pitching is much more important than a bullpen. Look no further than the 2005 post season, if the starting pitching is good the bullpen becomes less and less important.