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View Full Version : am I a Hall of Famer, part 1


"wrong" sox fan
07-29-2006, 05:02 PM
Ok I asked this in the Sox thread, now lets spead it to the MLB thread. Am I a hall of famer.


Pos: C, 2b, OF though most people will remember me as a second basemen.


hits: 2800, Runs: 1700, HR: 260, BA: .285, OBP:370, Slug:.440 Sb: 407

4 gold gloves, 8 time all star, Bill James once said I may be the most val. player in sports.


This poster believes it would be a crime for this person to not be in the hall.


What is his name?


Is he hall worthy?







(this is an easy one I think)

Gremlin3
07-29-2006, 05:12 PM
Biggio and definitely

getonbckthr
07-29-2006, 05:15 PM
Biggio yes is a hall of famer no he isn't a first ballot. I believe he also is the all time leader for hit by pitches.

RKMeibalane
07-29-2006, 05:46 PM
Craig Biggio is a HOF'er.

buehrle4cy05
07-29-2006, 05:48 PM
No doubt Biggio is in the HOF. I would wager that he ends his career with over 3,000 hits.

Timmy D's
07-29-2006, 05:50 PM
Def HOF. Not that this stat counts towards anything, but he must be close to most HBP's. Gonna try and find out how many he toof, and where he stands on record for that.

Timmy D's
07-29-2006, 05:51 PM
Geton, I apologize I didnt read your reply fully. Sorry, I was thinkin same thing to.

Oblong
07-29-2006, 08:02 PM
Yes he is a first ballot HOFer.

I believe he's the player who's been with his original team the longest of any other current player.

SoxFanPrope
07-29-2006, 08:09 PM
HOF'er, but not on the first ballot.

fquaye149
07-29-2006, 08:13 PM
i think there's doubt he's a hofer

i also think he makes it

MarySwiss
07-29-2006, 08:33 PM
Sorry, dude. But I don't really give a damn.
And the fact that you have elicited such a lame response tells me I am not alone.

Green
07-29-2006, 09:07 PM
No doubter. Definitely is deserving.

fquaye149
07-29-2006, 09:28 PM
i'm perplexed by how this is a no doubter. Biggio was very good throughout his career, but if he makes it who else is a no-doubter? is jeff kent a no doubter?

I mean, ****, even Robbie Alomar isn't a no-doubter these days. how the **** is Biggio?

I still think he will probably make it...but honestly: a no doubter? it's CRAIG BIGGIO.:?:

batmanZoSo
07-29-2006, 09:43 PM
i'm perplexed by how this is a no doubter. Biggio was very good throughout his career, but if he makes it who else is a no-doubter? is jeff kent a no doubter?

I mean, ****, even Robbie Alomar isn't a no-doubter these days. how the **** is Biggio?

I still think he will probably make it...but honestly: a no doubter? it's CRAIG BIGGIO.:?:

I agree, though not about Alomar. He was just outstanding. He should be first ballot in my opinion.

I think Biggio is a Hall of Famer, too. No doubter? I don't know about that. But does it really matter? You're either in or you're not, there are no degrees of making it to the Hall of Fame.

Oblong
07-29-2006, 10:13 PM
How is he not a HOFer? 2800 hits, 260 HR. He's a 2B by trade. I hate to play the "if this guy is then that guy is" game but if Ryne Sandberg is a HOFer then Biggio gets in over him. He also deserves it over Alomar.

fquaye149
07-29-2006, 10:51 PM
How is he not a HOFer? 2800 hits, 260 HR. He's a 2B by trade. I hate to play the "if this guy is then that guy is" game but if Ryne Sandberg is a HOFer then Biggio gets in over him. He also deserves it over Alomar.

Well, Sandberg is a borderline HOFer as it is, but he was the best 2B of his generation.

Can you honestly make that claim of Biggio?

2800 hits is what will get him in...esp. if he sticks around and gets 300... the other numbers are solid. SOLID.

fquaye149
07-29-2006, 10:52 PM
He also deserves it over Alomar.

By the way, I hate to play the "this statement calls your whole argument into question in its ridiculousness" game, but

this statement calls your whole argument into question in its ridiculousness.

Roberto Alomar was the best 2B of the 90's bar none. His #'s with the Blue Jays and Indians (hardly a small portion of his career) put him among the best 2B's of all time.

Biggio deserves it over him? Well, then Palmeiro deserves it over Foxx...

voodoochile
07-29-2006, 11:03 PM
2800 hits all by itself should be enough. Once he gets to 3000 it's a lock. That's 20 150 hit seasons or 15 200 hit seasons. How can a player like that not be elected?

fquaye149
07-29-2006, 11:09 PM
2800 hits all by itself should be enough. Once he gets to 3000 it's a lock. That's 20 150 hit seasons or 15 200 hit seasons. How can a player like that not be elected?

ask raffy.

but then again, he'll probably be elected, so your point remains.

I'm just saying, in these decades of offensive explosion, it might be wise to consider whether potential hall of famers really were superstars. Biggio was always a star, but was he ever a superstar? is longevity enough? important questions and ones that make me question those who say "he's a no-doubter"

hell, some people doubt whether thomas is a hof-er (some people with hof votes). is their ignorance to be discarded when it's indicative of a larger trend? if thomas is not a no-doubter (and he's not necessarily a no-doubter, at least practically speaking [i'm of the personal opinion that anyone who doubts frank's hof credentials is a living, drooling moron]) then biggio is by far not a no-doubter.

Nellie_Fox
07-30-2006, 02:54 AM
...most people will remember me as a second basemen.I hope that most people will remember him as a second baseman. I don't think he can be more than one at a time.

TDog
07-30-2006, 03:53 AM
Biggio yes is a hall of famer no he isn't a first ballot. ...

What difference does it make if he's first ballot or not? Carlton Fisk wasn't elected on his first ballot. They still let him talk for more than a half-hour in 2000. Luis Aparicio was inducted in 1984, 11 years after his last season. Nellie Fox (a better second baseman who played for the Astros) had to be elected by the Veterans Committee, correcting the oversight by the BBWAA. The fact is, all of them belong and all of them are there.

While I have no intention of hijacking this thread and bringing the pro- and con-Frank Thomas people at odds (as if they need any encouragement), I don't expect Thomas to be elected on his first ballot.

I believe he belongs, but I also believe there are writers who won't vote for him the first year he is eligible. There were writers who left Henry Aaron off of their ballot. The same could be said for Babe Ruth.

The Dude
07-30-2006, 11:13 AM
Biggio and definitely

I'm not sure if he's definitely a HOFer but he will come close on the first couple ballots.

0o0o0
07-30-2006, 01:12 PM
Sorry, dude. But I don't really give a damn.
And the fact that you have elicited such a lame response tells me I am not alone.

:?:

SoxFanPrope
07-30-2006, 01:46 PM
My favorite part of this whole thread is the initial post, where the posters writes, "Bill James says..."

Oblong
07-30-2006, 02:45 PM
By the way, I hate to play the "this statement calls your whole argument into question in its ridiculousness" game, but

this statement calls your whole argument into question in its ridiculousness.

Roberto Alomar was the best 2B of the 90's bar none. His #'s with the Blue Jays and Indians (hardly a small portion of his career) put him among the best 2B's of all time.

Biggio deserves it over him? Well, then Palmeiro deserves it over Foxx...

How is it ridiculous? Their career OBP and SLG are nearly identical. Biggio has more homers, more hits. He's got fewer steals but you are talking 470 to 400 so Biggio was no slouch there. Biggio's prime is right up there with Alomar's. You can say Alomar's better but to suggest the reverse is ridiculous is ridiculous.

I don't think Palmeiro, or even McGwire, will get elected. That's not to say they should or shouldn't, I'm undecided, but I don't think the BBWAA will elect them.

fquaye149
07-30-2006, 02:55 PM
How is it ridiculous? Their career OBP and SLG are nearly identical. Biggio has more homers, more hits. He's got fewer steals but you are talking 470 to 400 so Biggio was no slouch there. Biggio's prime is right up there with Alomar's. You can say Alomar's better but to suggest the reverse is ridiculous is ridiculous.

I don't think Palmeiro, or even McGwire, will get elected. That's not to say they should or shouldn't, I'm undecided, but I don't think the BBWAA will elect them.
career #'s are a silly way to compare a player who was by far the best 2B in baseball for an 8 year period but tailed off in his last 4 or 5 years and a 2B who was very good but never sensational.

Roberto Alomar=10 time Gold Glove, 12 time AS, 5 times finished top 10 in MVP voting, twice in the top 5 (3rd and 4th) Finished top 10 in batting 5 times

Craig Biggio=4 time Gold Glove, 7 time AS, thrice finished top 10 in MVP voting, but never higher than 4th, finished top 10 in batting twice

Oblong
07-30-2006, 04:23 PM
career #'s are a silly way to compare a player who was by far the best 2B in baseball for an 8 year period but tailed off in his last 4 or 5 years and a 2B who was very good but never sensational.

Roberto Alomar=10 time Gold Glove, 12 time AS, 5 times finished top 10 in MVP voting, twice in the top 5 (3rd and 4th) Finished top 10 in batting 5 times

Craig Biggio=4 time Gold Glove, 7 time AS, thrice finished top 10 in MVP voting, but never higher than 4th, finished top 10 in batting twice

Gold Gloves and All Star Games are a silly way to compare players because they are often given out very dubiously.

"wrong" sox fan
07-30-2006, 06:22 PM
My favorite part of this whole thread is the initial post, where the posters writes, "Bill James says..."


So we should ignore a comment by one of the best minds in baseball?


All we really know about Cool Papa Bell and Josh Gibson come from so called experts from the time, I suppose we should ignore that as well.


As far as the thread goes, I agree with most the posters here. He should be in, Alomar was better though.

PaulDrake
07-30-2006, 06:46 PM
Sorry, dude. But I don't really give a damn.
And the fact that you have elicited such a lame response tells me I am not alone. ?

Oblong
07-30-2006, 06:54 PM
Bill James uses computers and that's wrong. We should rely on old fat guys who watch a guy a few times and see some highlights on ESPN.

PaulDrake
07-30-2006, 06:59 PM
Bill James uses computers and that's wrong. We should rely on old fat guys who watch a guy a few times and see some highlights on ESPN.Hey I resemble that remark. Except for the "fat" part. I like to think of myself as muscular.

fquaye149
07-30-2006, 07:40 PM
Gold Gloves and All Star Games are a silly way to compare players because they are often given out very dubiously.

that's why i pointed to mvp voting as well. Although, I suppose that could be considered dubious(though I'm not sure how).Oh and being among the leaders in batting? Is that a subjective, flawed, and arbitrary system? I'm not one for making AS appearances and gg's the be all and end all, but when Alomar dominates Biggio in all of the above you have to make certain conclusions...

Don't take this the wrong way, but did you follow baseball in the early to mid 90's? I'm not trying to be a dick...I'm just wondering if maybe you came of age after Alomar and Biggio were at their peak. If you had been a baseball fan at that point in time (as well as a baseball card collector) you'd know that Alomar was a superstar, and Biggio was a semistar. This was not arbitrary or due to a media blitz. It was simply the way it was. Also, need I mention that Alomar has rings and WS appearances...he helped the Jays win their ring and was one of the main reasons the Indians made the show. Biggio's got ONE WS appearance and he certainly couldn't be considered even a top 20 reason the Stros were there.


Also, Surely you can't ignore the fact that even with an awful last few years, Alomar's #'s are still comparable to Biggio (who never had "awful" years, but had very few sensational years)...that speaks to Alomar's value during his peak years.

If it comes down to you just valuing longevity higher than actual superstardom, that's fine...but I don't think most people view the HOF that way...

Oblong
07-30-2006, 08:43 PM
I'm 32 and have watched baseball for as long as I could remember. I still remember where I was when Alomar and Carter were traded for McGriff and Fernandez. Is that enough street cred for you? I'm well aware of Alomar having watched him as a division foe in the East with Toronto and in the Central with Cleveland.

What this argument comes down to is whether a guy who was great for some years vs. a guy who was also great (but maybe not as great) but was also very good for much longer. Biggio is 3 years younger and still playing and adding value to his team. That has to count for something.

My contention is that it's ridiculous to say that Alomar is so much better than Biggio that saying Biggio was better is ridiculous. If you look at Baseball Reference's profole of each guy the #1 similar batter is the other one. Also, I think the list of similar batters to Biggio is more impressive than Alomar's.

The rings and WS point is moot because that's heavily dependant on the rest of the team. You can't fault a guy for not having better players around him. I'm confident if Biggio played on the Jays in 1992 and 1993 he'd have 2 rings too.

soxfanreggie
07-30-2006, 10:31 PM
Biggio is a tough choice. He's not a lock, but I think he has been a great ambassador for the game. He's not a selfish player, and he's always kept his nose clean.

As for Thomas, he plays another year after this season, and he should have the "magic" 500 homers.

Mohoney
07-31-2006, 05:53 PM
Just get to 3,000. Then it's automatic.

Otherwise, it's borderline.