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View Full Version : Do you all think Buehrle may be hurt?


Credefan21
07-26-2006, 07:31 PM
It is possible. They were talking about this on The Score a few minutes ago.. It isn't like Mark to be this bad. What do you guys think?

sox1970
07-26-2006, 07:34 PM
It is possible. They were talking about this on The Score a few minutes ago.. It isn't like Mark to be this bad. What do you guys think?

Not sure, but I'd still put him on the DL for a couple weeks and bring up Heath Phillips. I think a break away from the game may re-energize him and help the team down the stretch. For whatever reason, he just doesn't have it anymore.

SoxEd
07-26-2006, 07:36 PM
I called 'minor injury' last week.

He's got enough experience that we know he isn't a head-case, and Coop et al are good enough to have ironed-out any Pitch tipping, wrong action, or 'strategy failure' by now.

If he IS carrying a niggle, it could easily banjax his mechanics by enough to make him give up runs.

If it's only minor, then he's also NOT the kind of guy to want to hit the DL (and thus hurt his team).

If he IS carrying a minor niggle, then we need Herm to fix it asap.

Time (and the Sox' PR machine) will tell.

SABRSox
07-26-2006, 07:39 PM
He's thrown so many innings over the past few years, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was injured. I also wouldn't be surprised if Mark was the kind of guy that would pitch through injuries.

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-26-2006, 07:41 PM
Didn't he say a while ago that he was fine physically?

JB98
07-26-2006, 07:42 PM
If Buerhle is hurt, it's up to him to tell somebody. As long as he says he's healthy, I believe him.

soxjim
07-26-2006, 07:50 PM
I was wondering the same thing myself. Buehrle does give up a lot of hits. It seems that now they all are together. My thinking is there is a problem with his mechanics.

eastchicagosoxfan
07-26-2006, 07:52 PM
Will a couple of missed starts help a guy with a dead arm? I don't know the answer, does anyone know of trainers talking about dead arms, and recovery time? Buerhle's a leader on this team, and if he's down on himself, it might be rubbing off. Maybe he misses a turn, and give McCarthy the start.

Argalarga
07-26-2006, 07:58 PM
I think skipping him would do more damage than putting him on the DL would. Skipping him says "we have no faith in you."

QCIASOXFAN
07-26-2006, 08:05 PM
Speaking of Buehrle, I just heard Konerko on the score saying they have not given him enough run support. He also said if it was game 7 tomorrow Buehrle would be his choice to get the ball.:?:

Argalarga
07-26-2006, 08:10 PM
Run support? I'm sorry, but the Sox can't be expected to score 8 runs a game. MB is hurt.

drftnaway
07-26-2006, 08:11 PM
OR

Maybe he's just lost it. It's not unheard of.

JB98
07-26-2006, 08:12 PM
Run support? I'm sorry, but the Sox can't be expected to score 8 runs a game. MB is hurt.

Are you MB's doctor? If so, please tell us the nature of the injury.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2006, 08:13 PM
I think Mark is fine physically. Mentally this is starting to get to him (just like Vasquez). There may be something to him tipping his pitches again.

His track record has proven he is not this bad.

Lip

Paulwny
07-26-2006, 08:21 PM
The batters now have a different approach with Buehrle. Knowing that he usually throws a 1st pitch strike many hitters are swinging earlier in the count. Buehrle's 1st pitch to batters is usually the best pitch to hit. Buehrle needs to not be so automatic with his 1st pitch.

SoxEd
07-26-2006, 08:35 PM
The batters now have a different approach with Buehrle. Knowing that he usually throws a 1st pitch strike many hitters are swinging earlier in the count. Buehrle's 1st pitch to batters is usually the best pitch to hit. Buehrle needs to not be so automatic with his 1st pitch.

Which Coop, Ozzie or Raines would have noticed by now, and told Mark to change his strategy on first pitch.
If the problem was that 'batters are now consistently swinging at his first-pitch strike', they'd have told him to consistently throw the first one way out of the zone and get a swinging strike.
That way, batters would no longer feel that they had his first pitch to hit all the time.

At least I'd have hoped that the Coaches would have done this by now.

Paulwny
07-26-2006, 08:44 PM
Which Coop, Ozzie or Raines would have noticed by now, and told Mark to change his strategy on first pitch.
If the problem was that 'batters are now consistently swinging at his first-pitch strike', they'd have told him to consistently throw the first one way out of the zone and get a swinging strike.
That way, batters would no longer feel that they had his first pitch to hit all the time.

At least I'd have hoped that the Coaches would have done this by now.

The last series against ny, the yankmee announcers noted that the yanks , who like to go deep into counts, were swinging early in the count because Buehrle wasn't a nibbler around the plate.

!st post, # 136 on this page http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=75946&page=10

BeviBall!
07-26-2006, 08:51 PM
I almost hope he is hurting as that would explain a lot.

fusillirob1983
07-26-2006, 10:19 PM
The batters now have a different approach with Buehrle. Knowing that he usually throws a 1st pitch strike many hitters are swinging earlier in the count. Buehrle's 1st pitch to batters is usually the best pitch to hit. Buehrle needs to not be so automatic with his 1st pitch.

The Cubs rocked him by doing this. I didn't see him pitch today, so I couldn't say if it's been happening more than once, but in a couple of his bad starts they weren't seeing too many pitches.

nasox
07-26-2006, 10:23 PM
I think he's just lost "it" for the time being. His location is off, and against the Cubs he was overthrowing. If he consistently misses his spots, he'll get rocked.

CommanderPudge72
07-26-2006, 10:28 PM
We are in a collective FUNK right now...Mark, Javy, Thome, Konerko...everyone here at WSI...it's a mental game we are playing now.

Only Garland seems to be immune..someone test his blood and make a serum in the Batcave.

:bandance:

gurupremir
07-26-2006, 10:33 PM
pitch speed is down... *cough steroids *coughcough

starboy0
07-26-2006, 10:33 PM
The batters now have a different approach with Buehrle. Knowing that he usually throws a 1st pitch strike many hitters are swinging earlier in the count. Buehrle's 1st pitch to batters is usually the best pitch to hit. Buehrle needs to not be so automatic with his 1st pitch.

But wouldn't they have figured this out long ago? These guys have seen him for years.

pczarapa
07-26-2006, 10:43 PM
It is possible. They were talking about this on The Score a few minutes ago.. It isn't like Mark to be this bad. What do you guys think?

He's got to be dinged up, his breaking ball doesn't have the same snap and he's bailing out from the rubber on a lot of pitches. I don't know if he's "hurt hurt", but his stats sure look uncomfortable.

AnkleSox
07-26-2006, 10:44 PM
pitch speed is down... *cough steroids *coughcough

2001 - 221.1 IP
2002 - 239.0 IP
2003 - 230.1 IP
2004 - 245.1 IP
2005 - 236.2 IP
2006 - 138.1 IP

Mark's been a horse for the past 6 years, and it's probably caught up to him. The steroids implication is ridiculous.

SOXandILLINI
07-26-2006, 10:46 PM
excuses..excuses... get somebody out.:angry: .. i know he's not making them, so stop making them for him, he's a big boy.

infohawk
07-26-2006, 10:47 PM
But wouldn't they have figured this out long ago? These guys have seen him for years. Yes, hitters would have been all over his first pitch strike tendencies long ago. I have no evidence, but I think something is wrong with him physically.

viagracat
07-26-2006, 10:49 PM
There's been some speculation that he's tipping his pitches. I'm beginning to think that's possible.

samram
07-26-2006, 10:50 PM
pitch speed is down... *cough steroids *coughcough

Dude, he's never thrown above 88. *cough LSD* coughcough.

Now, as to why he's struggling, I think it may be an accumulation of IP over the last five years. I know that the Sox really need him to turn this around- he's part of the heart and soul of this team.

gurupremir
07-26-2006, 10:51 PM
2001 - 221.1 IP
2002 - 239.0 IP
2003 - 230.1 IP
2004 - 245.1 IP
2005 - 236.2 IP
2006 - 138.1 IP

Mark's been a horse for the past 6 years, and it's probably caught up to him. The steroids implication is ridiculous.


.. yeah it caught up to him dead in the middle of the season ... he just started completly sucking because of last four seasons

CommanderPudge72
07-26-2006, 10:51 PM
pitch speed is down... *cough steroids *coughcough

and I thought I was being ridiculous with the Garland's Blood Theory....

Question, are you a Dadaist, or a :dtroll:

Not sure yet.

bigfoot
07-26-2006, 10:53 PM
All this speculation is just that, speculation. When we all know the REAL reason behind MB's lack of success is the ban on rain-delay tarp sliding.:tongue:

rainbow6
07-26-2006, 11:03 PM
I don't think anything is "getting to" Vazquez - he's been a below average pitcher for a couple of years.

His track record has proven he is bad.

Sorry to veer off-topic.


I think Mark is fine physically. Mentally this is starting to get to him (just like Vasquez). There may be something to him tipping his pitches again.

His track record has proven he is not this bad.

Lip

WhiteSoxFan84
07-26-2006, 11:08 PM
No, he's not hurt. His gameplan has now been figured out by the rest of the league and he just plain out sucks. He throws 88MPH for the love of God and he doesn't have a deceptive slider, curve, sinker, or anything. His cutter is a joke. He never has been a good pitcher against the top offenses in the league. He thrives on 1-hitting the Royals or shutting out the Mariners.

Trade his ass. His value will never get any higher.

russ99
07-26-2006, 11:09 PM
Practical question: Did Mark pitch in the World Baseball Craptacular?

That would explain why he's run down - too many innings.

Regardess, I'm hoping these guys come together as a team on this upcoming road trip.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2006, 11:31 PM
No he didn't 'just' Garcia and Vasquez.

And they are having problems too....coincidence? I don't think so.

Lip

kitekrazy
07-26-2006, 11:46 PM
Maybe he's having an off year. Didn't he get hammered in July 2005?

kwolf68
07-26-2006, 11:56 PM
Dude, he's never thrown above 88. *cough LSD* coughcough.



:yup: ... and ... :D:

bluestar
07-27-2006, 12:05 AM
I just don't buy that Buehrle is injured. If he is hurting and not saying anything, he is hurting the team. That just doesn't sound like the Mark Buehrle that has been such a leader on and off the field for years. I think the problems are either mental or he has simply lost his control. Maybe shutting him down for an extended period would help him, maybe not. I believe it is very possible that his abilities are declining, and he will never be the pitcher he has been in past years.

Whatever his problems, I think he is the key to the success of the Sox this season. If he does need to be shut down for awhile, I think it casts serious doubts on the ability of the Sox to make the playoffs again, barring some shocking trade or a miraculous performance by McCarthy or some call up.

kwolf68
07-27-2006, 12:09 AM
I think it casts serious doubts on the ability of the Sox to make the playoffs again, barring some shocking trade or a miraculous performance by McCarthy or some call up.

This animal does not exist.

kevingrt
07-27-2006, 12:21 AM
All this speculation is just that, speculation. When we all know the REAL reason behind MB's lack of success is the ban on rain-delay tarp sliding.:tongue:

No it is very, very true BigFoot.

WE WANT TARP SLIDING BACK!!!

ChetChat
07-27-2006, 12:21 AM
He's not hurt. He needs to eat his Wheaties. Or maybe some tarp sliding to loosen him up!

bluestar
07-27-2006, 08:23 AM
This animal does not exist.

I don't think so, either; that's why I used the word "miraculous."

mccoydp
07-27-2006, 08:52 AM
No, he's not hurt. His gameplan has now been figured out by the rest of the league and he just plain out sucks.

This is also most commonly known as "Shingo-itis". :D:

Norberto7
07-27-2006, 09:44 AM
Face it, even when Buehrle was really on, you never really got the feeling that he was unhittable. Especially in a close game, I always feared on of those pedestrian fastballs being hit a lonnnng ways. Really, it's a testament to Mark that he's been as successful using his savvy moreso than his stuff. I don't buy he has lost something physically (fatigue), because that's not what he really relied on.

And really, if it took until the last five games for MLB to figure out that Buehrle throws first pitch strikes, they're idiots. And if everyone in MLB except the Chicago White Sox knows MB is tipping pitches, they also are idiots. I doubt either is the case.

With as many hits/hr's he has given up, I think, as mentioned, the problem is location. You don't give up that many jacks on good, well-located pitches.

Chisox1500
07-27-2006, 12:05 PM
Buehrle was never unhittable. He was a good pitcher that relied on grit, control and confidence.

I hope he's hurt because he looks done. Right now he reminds me of Rick Ankiel or Chuck Knoblauch. He lost his mental edge. I would D.L. him and send him to shrink or something. He is a guaranteed L right now.

Railsplitter
07-27-2006, 12:37 PM
I started a similar thread about a week or two ago. I think he's hurting.

spiffie
07-27-2006, 12:42 PM
I don't think that Mark is hiding any sort of major injury or anything of that ilk. However I wonder if Mark isn't the Anti-Prior. One of the knock on Prior is that he misses starts and goes on the DL with pain that a lot of pitchers just pitch through. I wonder if Mark isn't suffering some minor injuries but feels like they are just normal aches and pains and nothing that the usual treatment and stretching can't deal with.

StockdaleForVeep
07-27-2006, 01:49 PM
2-4 years ago buehrle was terrible for the first half of the year and i wanna say lost 7 straight before he moved to the other side of the mound and was lights out, its probably something mental\mechanical wise that needs to be fixed

Ol' No. 2
07-27-2006, 01:54 PM
2-4 years ago buehrle was terrible for the first half of the year and i wanna say lost 7 straight before he moved to the other side of the mound and was lights out, its probably something mental\mechanical wise that needs to be fixedI think that was 2003, but he definately sucked big time for a month or so. He got booed off the mound one night in June and there was a big controversy over it. Next start he shut down the Red Sox and never looked back.

My guess is the number of innings he pitched last year is catching up with him. Pitchers go through a "dead arm" period, usually in August. Maybe pitching an extra month last year just brought it on a month earlier this year. Whatever, I'll be shocked if Alomar isn't catching him his next start. Sometimes something as simple as moving to the other side of the rubber can make a huge difference.

MikeLove
07-27-2006, 02:00 PM
If he IS carrying a niggle, it could easily banjax his mechanics by enough to make him give up runs.



haha thats some awesome vocabulary there... aww man i didnt notice you were in england at first, makes sense cause i don't think ive ever seen 'banjax' before

StockdaleForVeep
07-27-2006, 02:21 PM
I think that was 2003, but he definately sucked big time for a month or so. He got booed off the mound one night in June and there was a big controversy over it. Next start he shut down the Red Sox and never looked back.

My guess is the number of innings he pitched last year is catching up with him. Pitchers go through a "dead arm" period, usually in August. Maybe pitching an extra month last year just brought it on a month earlier this year. Whatever, I'll be shocked if Alomar isn't catching him his next start. Sometimes something as simple as moving to the other side of the rubber can make a huge difference.

Cooper was interviewed a few days ago and he said whomever says its dead arm or tired is wrong(this coming from garland who was saying he was a little tired)

I mean if the pitching is tired, then why isnt the hitting tired.(u can maybe make the argument it currently is) but Houston's pitching and hitting is continuing well, dye is having another great year at this moment. So i dont believe in the "tired" issue

Ol' No. 2
07-27-2006, 02:29 PM
Cooper was interviewed a few days ago and he said whomever says its dead arm or tired is wrong(this coming from garland who was saying he was a little tired)

I mean if the pitching is tired, then why isnt the hitting tired.(u can maybe make the argument it currently is) but Houston's pitching and hitting is continuing well, dye is having another great year at this moment. So i dont believe in the "tired" issueFrankly, the hitting looks more than a little tired, too. But I don't think you can equate "dead arm" to being tired. Nor can you compare it to hitting, which, unlike pitching, doesn't put all the stress on one part of the body. I haven't seen anyone offer anything like an adequate explanation for it, but pitchers always seem to go through this around August, then get their second wind in September.

bluestar
07-27-2006, 02:29 PM
Cooper was interviewed a few days ago and he said whomever says its dead arm or tired is wrong(this coming from garland who was saying he was a little tired)

I mean if the pitching is tired, then why isnt the hitting tired.(u can maybe make the argument it currently is) but Houston's pitching and hitting is continuing well, dye is having another great year at this moment. So i dont believe in the "tired" issue

"Dead arm" and "tired" are really two different things. Every pitcher usually goes through a dead-arm period or two in a season. It may only last for one start, or it may stretch across several starts. It isn't really being "tired" so much as a buildup of stress that the pitcher has to work through.

Bad habits can also plague a pitcher. I was just reading earlier about Mark Mulder's rehab for the Cards. He was saying he feels fine again, but he is struggling to stop doing the things he did when he was hurting. He explained that his muscles had adjusted to certain angles and release points and he is having to more or less train them to stop compensating for the pain. In his case it was specifically getting full arm extension when he throws the ball. He didn't extend his arm fully when he was hurting, and now that he is not hurting, he is having problems forcing his arm to fully extend.

StockdaleForVeep
07-27-2006, 02:31 PM
Frankly, the hitting looks more than a little tired, too. But I don't think you can equate "dead arm" to being tired. Nor can you compare it to hitting, which, unlike pitching, doesn't put all the stress on one part of the body. I haven't seen anyone offer anything like an adequate explanation for it, but pitchers always seem to go through this around August, then get their second wind in September.

But they are playing more games, 9 innings at a time. Yes pitching is stressful and only focused on your arm but to use the "valuable" sage advice from dustpan. playing in the sun every day tires you out

Yes everyone is different but if its about how many games played, how come houston isnt in a terrible slump due to fatigue? And they play in a hotter environment than us

StockdaleForVeep
07-27-2006, 02:32 PM
"Dead arm" and "tired" are really two different things. Every pitcher usually goes through a dead-arm period or two in a season. It may only last for one start, or it may stretch across several starts. It isn't really being "tired" so much as a buildup of stress that the pitcher has to work through.

Bad habits can also plague a pitcher. I was just reading earlier about Mark Mulder's rehab for the Cards. He was saying he feels fine again, but he is struggling to stop doing the things he did when he was hurting. He explained that his muscles had adjusted to certain angles and release points and he is having to more or less train them to stop compensating for the pain. In his case it was specifically getting full arm extension when he throws the ball. He didn't extend his arm fully when he was hurting, and now that he is not hurting, he is having problems forcing his arm to fully extend.

That would make sense if buehrle was hurt and not saying anything but untill they say anything, its all speculation at this point.

bluestar
07-27-2006, 02:35 PM
That would make sense if buehrle was hurt and not saying anything but untill they say anything, its all speculation at this point.

And I'm not saying he is hurt. As I said earlier, I don't think he is. I was just saying that pitchers can get into bad habits because of injury, dead arms, or just lack of confidence. Once they do, it can be tough to adjust the mechanics back to where they need to be.

jenn2080
07-27-2006, 02:36 PM
i dont think he is pysically hurt...but he is mentally off a bit.

bluestar
07-27-2006, 02:38 PM
i dont think he is pysically hurt...but he is mentally off a bit.

Aren't we all? :kukoo::nuts:

Ol' No. 2
07-27-2006, 02:39 PM
But they are playing more games, 9 innings at a time. Yes pitching is stressful and only focused on your arm but to use the "valuable" sage advice from dustpan. playing in the sun every day tires you out

Yes everyone is different but if its about how many games played, how come houston isnt in a terrible slump due to fatigue? And they play in a hotter environment than usOnly Oswalt, Pettitte and Clemens pitched more than 200 IP last year. Clemens, obviously, can be eliminated from the discussion. Both Pettitte and Oswalt have pitched poorly in their last two starts. Don't be too sure they're not affected. Also, Pettitte pitched only 83 IP in 2004. It's hard to say how much of this is cumulative, but Sox pitchers are near the top of MLB in IP year after year.

infohawk
07-27-2006, 02:40 PM
Question for you guys. What is really wrong with Buehrle's pitches? I mean, are they just not located well or has he lost velocity? Perhaps both? I've heard that he has been pitching up in the zone too much, but today on the Score they were talking about how he couldn't break a pane of glass with his fastball right now. I haven't actually seen him pitch in awhile. Is it one or both?

Ol' No. 2
07-27-2006, 02:43 PM
Question for you guys. What is really wrong with Buehrle's pitches? I mean, are they just not located well or has he lost velocity? Perhaps both? I've heard that he has been pitching up in the zone too much, but today on the Score they were talking about how he couldn't break a pane of glass with his fastball right now. I haven't actually seen him pitch in awhile. Is it one or both?Location. He's up in the zone. He never had much velocity and it's about the same as always.

StockdaleForVeep
07-27-2006, 02:46 PM
Only Oswalt, Pettitte and Clemens pitched more than 200 IP last year. Clemens, obviously, can be eliminated from the discussion. Both Pettitte and Oswalt have pitched poorly in their last two starts. Don't be too sure they're not affected. Also, Pettitte pitched only 83 IP in 2004. It's hard to say how much of this is cumulative, but Sox pitchers are near the top of MLB in IP year after year.

True but buerhle himself has been horrid for about a month i wanna say. Also, houston is more liable for damage because they are primarily power\fast ball pitchers. Buehrle requires finesse.

Also, the relief this year has been poor for the sox

bluestar
07-27-2006, 02:52 PM
Question for you guys. What is really wrong with Buehrle's pitches? I mean, are they just not located well or has he lost velocity? Perhaps both? I've heard that he has been pitching up in the zone too much, but today on the Score they were talking about how he couldn't break a pane of glass with his fastball right now. I haven't actually seen him pitch in awhile. Is it one or both?

Buehrle and AJ have said the problem is location and control. They say he is missing his spots, and when he gets hit, he is missing up. He is not only missing up, though; he is also missing when he tries to throw outside and inside. It's just that when he misses up, the hitter is hitting it.

Cooper has said his velocity is down, but only slightly.

Ol' No. 2
07-27-2006, 03:06 PM
True but buerhle himself has been horrid for about a month i wanna say. Also, houston is more liable for damage because they are primarily power\fast ball pitchers. Buehrle requires finesse.

Also, the relief this year has been poor for the soxThe bullpen problems are mostly due to Cliff Politte. What his problem was we don't really know. The rest of the bullpen has been fine. Cotts has been down a little from last year, but he had a very good year last year and that's to be expected. He's still been pretty good. Jenks has been Jenks. Thornton has been better than anyone had any right to expect. McCarthy has been OK in a role he's not really suited for. I think the BP issues have mostly been due to the starters not lasting as long.

I really don't know what's wrong with the Sox starters. I'm speculating like everyone else. But Sox starters have been near the top of the league in IP every year and last year they put in an extra month. It's hard to see how that could not affect them.

Jurr
07-27-2006, 03:19 PM
Buehrle's strength is by staying in the zone, keeping hitters on his pitches that have late movement. You swing, but the ball breaks late to lessen the contact, leading to grounders and popouts. It's always been that way, and in streaks where he's not as effective, he gets killed.

August and early September 2005 weren't that good for Buehrle, either. He usually finds some new adjustment, and he gets his movement back. He had a similar crisis a few years ago, and he made the move to the far left side of the pitching rubber. It helped him get his movement back. They'll fix him.