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View Full Version : Sox plan for the next 12 months....


caulfield12
07-26-2006, 09:30 AM
Let Pods go and try Owens out there but be ready to go with Josh Fields if things don't work out.

Anderson in CF.

Pick up Dye's option for 2006 (only $6 million) but be ready to trade him at the All-Star break to a contender in 2007 (the Yankees might be willing to give up Phillip Rivers and Melky Cabrera for Dye and Vazquez or Garcia this year)...be ready to go with Ryan Sweeney as your RFer and take some lumps.
Sign Crede to an extension.

Trade Uribe for a higher OBP, leadoff hitter with 20-40 steal potential....combo of Reyes, Furcal, Figgins, Eckstein....wait for Rob Valido to possibly develop internally.

Iguchi.....look to trade at mid-year of 2007 if team is not contending....look at Chris Getz or external candidates

Konerko...

AJ/Chris Stewart....look to upgrade talent in minors at upper levels

Contreras
Buehrle (watch closely, trade or sign to extension)
Garland
McCarthy
Vazquez or Garcia (adios)

Riske (wait until end of season, possible re-sign)
MacDougal (definitely offer arbitration)
Thornton (send to AFL to develop secondary pitches to be ready as a starter)
Cotts (trade or hold onto, in which case Thornton would need to stay as set-up man and not starter)
Jenks

Need to find another reliever to replace McCarthy....Tracey, possibly...Adam Russell...Corwin Malone...Phillips...Haeger...Broadway, etc.

Untouchables....Anderson, Sweeney, Fields, Crede, Konerko, AJ, Contreras, McCarthy, Jenks, Thornton and/or Cotts

Could be traded for right piece in return: Buehrle, Garcia, Vazquez, Cotts, Dye, Thome, Iguchi, Uribe, Pods

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 09:42 AM
I think the absolute gutsiest move KW could make would be to trade Dye and Thome for Ichiro.

Ichiro, Anderson and Josh Fields becomes the new outfield in 2007 (assuming Fields has played LF in the AFL and Winter Ball respectably). Fields could also DH (not a great idea for such a young player) and we could bring in another "small ball" leftfielder...we could also put Sweeney or Owens out there. Sweeney, defensively, would automatically be one of the five or seven best based on his tools

Thome has been TOO good, he's fundamentally changed the orientation of this team to a Bash Brothers, 3 run homer mentality. We don't manufacture any runs and seem to have lost the capability to switch on a dime and execute to score a run at a time when we can't run over opponents.

We would have to trade Uribe and replace him with a high OPB leadoff hitter at that position.

We are going to have to trade Vazquez/Garcia (one or the other) and Uribe to get that piece back....

We also have the ability to try Thornton as a starter in the AFL and Winter Leagues as insurance for the rotation with the trade of Garcia/Vazquez.


Or we could trade Dye, Garcia and Fields (ssuming Crede signs an extension) to the Yankees for A-Rod, Cabrera and cash during the offseason....that would leave Owens, Sweeney and Cabrera to fight it out for LF.

Madvora
07-26-2006, 09:43 AM
Looks like KW's going to be busy.

Don't you think that outfield would be too young?

CHIsoxNation
07-26-2006, 09:49 AM
I agree Dye's option will be picked up, but I think you have to keep him all year instead of trading him to a "contender"...the Sox should be contending the next few years with the pitching they have and the trio of Thome, Paulie and Dye has been pretty successful.

Uribe's defensive is too valuable to give up for someone like Figgins or Eckstein. I doubt you'll be able to get Reyes from the Mets and Furcal is getting paid a lot of money and having only an average year this year.

Thorton should stay in the pen. Thornton, Macdougal and Jenks should be pretty lethal for the next few years. No need to move Thorton to the starting roll when you have so much talent in the minors or could even try converting Cotts back to a starter but that should be necessary.

MagicNumber22
07-26-2006, 09:49 AM
The way things are looking, we're going to have toddlers out there. Either way, I'm looking forward to what Kenny is going to do.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 09:49 AM
I still have a good feeling about Sweeney developing into a Rafael Palmeiro type, minus the steroids. The comparison you hear more often is Olerud, but Sweeney is a much better athlete and very smooth (yeah, Olerud won Gold Gloves, but he was almost robotic).

My gut feeling is that...

1) KW knows that he has to re-sign Crede long-term
2) He's going to have to choose between Fields and Sweeney and trade the other
3) He knows he has to replace Pods and possibly Uribe because neither are capable of playing "small ball" anymore

The pieces are in place, it's simply a matter of selecting which bargaining chips to deal.

We can't afford to have Fields, Anderson AND Sweeney/Owens in the OF at the same time, but we can live with two out of three I think.

Dye is incredibly valuable as a trade chip, because his contract next year will only be for $6 million (club option)...that's nothing, when retreads like Reggie Sanders are making almost that much.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 09:55 AM
You have to match power for power.

We don't know if Buehrle's going to get it together...that's another huge question mark, like the Cardinals have with Mulder.

Bonderman/Verlander...Liriano/Santana....Contreras/???

Thornton stated when we traded for him that he would love to go back to starting...it's worth a look....heck, it took Liriano less than 18 months to develop the most devastating slider in baseball.

And Radke is out after next year, so the Twins have some issues as well, no matter how good those guys are at the top of the rotation...Baker, Lohse, Silva and Bonser are not going to get it done.

And they've lost their window by being competitive this year to trade Stewart, Ford, Hunter, Rondell White...signing Hunter long-term is a huge risk for a "speed" player in his 30's. They have to go out and get the perfect FA pitcher, like they did in 2003 with Kenny Rogers.

If Valido had continued to develop this year instead of regressing, we would have an answer at SS...although it would be pushing it to move him from BIRM to the majors for next year, even if he was great this season.

MadetoOrta
07-26-2006, 10:08 AM
All very intersting. I like Joe Crede as much as anyone but with Fields ready to burst onto the scene, I wouldn't be so sure KW's gonna extend Crede. He's had back issues. KW loses his job if Crede signs long-term, develops a degenerative back problem and Josh Fields is the starting 3B in the All-Star game for the _______. [fill in team] Plus, Josh isn't going to cost much. I'd like to know when some Venezuelan studs like Johan Santana/Miguel Cabrera and these others who express that they'd like to play for Ozzie become free agents?

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 10:11 AM
Santana is signed through the 2008 season at a little over $13 million.

Cabrera just doesn't have a natural position defensively, he's more of a 1B/DH IMO. It would take too much to get him at this stage in his career....we already have Thome, and we had to give up very little in talent besides a potential stud in Gio.

Any Cabrera deal would tear off three or four huge pieces of our roster or best prospects.

skottyj242
07-26-2006, 10:14 AM
You forgot about one main thing....win the World Series.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 10:18 AM
For right now, there's nothing they could possibly do besides trading Vazquez or Garcia during the season and putting McCarthy into the rotation.

And they would probably get prospects back in return, nobody who could help the team this year.

hold2dibber
07-26-2006, 10:29 AM
Let Pods go and try Owens out there but be ready to go with Josh Fields if things don't work out.

Anderson in CF.

Pick up Dye's option for 2006 (only $6 million) but be ready to trade him at the All-Star break to a contender in 2007 (the Yankees might be willing to give up Phillip Rivers and Melky Cabrera for Dye and Vazquez or Garcia this year)...be ready to go with Ryan Sweeney as your RFer and take some lumps.

I have serious doubts that Owens will ever be as good as Pods. Pods is still cheap and relatively effective. Assuming Fields is switched to the OF and is respectable defensively I could see him taking over mid-year '07 at the earliest (assuming the Sox bring in someone else, presumably at SS or 2B) who could lead off. As for Dye, it sounds like you're suggesting that the Sox won't be contenders in '07. I assume they will be and therefore don't see any reason why the Sox would want to trade him next year. If they're not contending, I think they might be better of trading Dye and putting Fields in right and retaining Pods.

Sign Crede to an extension.

Couldn't agree more.

Trade Uribe for a higher OBP, leadoff hitter with 20-40 steal potential....combo of Reyes, Furcal, Figgins, Eckstein....wait for Rob Valido to possibly develop internally.

I don't think anyone would take Uribe in return for a high OBP, leadoff hitting, 20-40 steal SS. Not sure what to think of Valido, but I love Uribe's glove and at least he has some pop at the plate - better than average number 9 hitter and a plus defender. I say keep him.


Iguchi.....look to trade at mid-year of 2007 if team is not contending....look at Chris Getz or external candidates.

Agree.

DeadMoney
07-26-2006, 10:31 AM
For right now, there's nothing they could possibly do besides trading Vazquez or Garcia during the season and putting McCarthy into the rotation.

And they would probably get prospects back in return, nobody who could help the team this year.

Funny...I realize that this year is not over, but I was thinking about the offseason and possible moves they COULD make and pretty much came up with the exact ideas you did. Not going to disagree on really anything you said except, that Ichiro trade would NEVER happen.

I especially agree with this:
Thome has been TOO good, he's fundamentally changed the orientation of this team to a Bash Brothers, 3 run homer mentality. We don't manufacture any runs and seem to have lost the capability to switch on a dime and execute to score a run at a time when we can't run over opponents.

This team just seems absolutely unable to produce many runs without a blast. Stringing together hits has disappeared and I think it may become more of a trend then a slump. I can only hope I'm wrong.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 10:46 AM
They would have to package Uribe with someone else to get it done...


As if the Twins needed any more help, they have another pitcher skyrocketing through their system that somehow managed to fall to #25 pick in the first round last year.

In fact, we could have taken this guy but chose Broadway instead. Terry Ryan is still the best GM in the game, no arguments from me.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=490063

We've been lucky to have a guy this year in the minors move up one level...this guy has gone from High A (FSL) to AAA seamlessly.

If he produces and they can coax Radke back, we're in huge trouble...and you figure the Indians willl sort out their mess eventually as well. Even KC is going to get better with Dayton Moore.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-26-2006, 10:51 AM
I have serious doubts that Owens will ever be as good as Pods. Pods is still cheap and relatively effective. Assuming Fields is switched to the OF and is respectable defensively I could see him taking over mid-year '07 at the earliest.

Why not try Sweeney in LF. An OF of Sweeney, Anderson, and Dye seems pretty good to me.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 10:56 AM
That would be fine too....it all depends on the negotiations and decision on Crede.

They could end up trading Crede for A-Rod, I have no idea what will happen.

Fields has to play LF if Crede stays.

And Sweeney is a natural RFer, although he could certainly adjust to LF IMO.

I don't think Fields has the arm for RF...he was a college QB, but that doesn't mean he has a great arm. It would be adequate, at best.

UofCSoxFan
07-26-2006, 11:01 AM
Based on Owens mediocre average this year I'd say he's taken a big step back in being ready for the big club. Also, the more I hear the more analysts are projecting Sweeney to be 4th outfielder. Him and Anderson in the same outfield, where you are suppossed to get a lot of your power, could be bad.

This team is built to win now...the rebuilding can begin once Jose and Thome retire and some other guys go elsewhere.

While you need to consider the future, there comes a time when you need to win in the present...seems to work for some other teams allright.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2006, 11:03 AM
To me the big off season questions are:

1. Which starting pitcher gets traded?

2. What is done with Posednik. (I think Kenny will be looking to upgrade)

3. What does Kenny do to upgrade the bench. Sox need a back up CF'er and a back up C.

Lip

MadetoOrta
07-26-2006, 11:08 AM
Sweeney, Anderson, Fields and Mac are very affordable players for many years. JR has opened the checkbook greatly but let's be realistic we're not a $150-200 million payroll team. The young kids allow us to pay for top notch PITCHING.

Jjav829
07-26-2006, 12:16 PM
the Yankees might be willing to give up Phillip Rivers and Melky Cabrera for Dye and Vazquez or Garcia this years

Do you really think the Yankees would give us Phillip Rivers? :tongue:

wdelaney72
07-26-2006, 12:23 PM
The list of 3B around MLB with Joe Crede's defensive skills and offensive productivity is VERY short. Joe Crede will be extended. Period.

UofCSoxFan
07-26-2006, 12:29 PM
Sweeney, Anderson, Fields and Mac are very affordable players for many years. JR has opened the checkbook greatly but let's be realistic we're not a $150-200 million payroll team. The young kids allow us to pay for top notch PITCHING.

Maybe not 150 million, but this is not a small market team anymore. We exist in perhaps the most baseball crazed city in the world that has 8 million people in its metro area.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 12:35 PM
If we gave them Dye, Garcia and Sweeney or Fields, we could get Philip Rivers.

This year, today....that trade won't be available next season because they will have addressed their RF issue by then, and Sidney Ponson will be a distant memory.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 12:37 PM
I think Sweeney is still going to be a fine outfielder and everyday player in the big leagues.

There's no doubt the jury is still out on Owens, and Jerry is quite a bit older than Sweeney. I think Owens is much more likely to become a 4th outfielder than Ryan.

DSpivack
07-26-2006, 12:42 PM
If we gave them Dye, Garcia and Sweeney or Fields, we could get Philip Rivers.

We already have Josh Fields, and if we bring back Joe Borchard we might have 3 better QBs than the Bears!

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 12:45 PM
Okay, Philip Hughes....whatever.

And a washed up linebacker in Brian West while we're at it.

Chris Weinke, Josh Booty, Drew Henson and Charles Peterson might not be available.

broker3d
07-26-2006, 01:35 PM
Why not try Sweeney in LF. An OF of Sweeney, Anderson, and Dye seems pretty good to me.

who leads off for us?

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 02:07 PM
We'd have to get a SS who could leadoff.

Frater Perdurabo
07-26-2006, 02:49 PM
Much of this thread smells suspiciously like it's a "give up" on the 2006 season.

It's always important to look ahead, but in the meantime the Sox - and we Sox fans - ought to focus on winning this year.

Ichiro would be a pipedream - and I would LOVE to see a 1-2 of Ichiro and Iguchi - but even for Dye and Thome there's no way Seattle would trade him. He's worth more to that team than perhaps any other player to any other team because of the number of fans he brings to the team. Dye and Thome have less value in Safeco because it's so much harder to hit a homer there.

I too agree that long term, the Sox need to be able to promote position players from within in order to afford both a prime starting rotation and pay Paul Konerko and lock up Crede. That means that Fields and Sweeney have value to the Sox long-term. Still, because of the strong rotations that Minnesota and Detroit have (and will have over the next few years), it's imperative that the Sox never stop looking for ways to strengthen the rotation. Therefore, IMHO Fields and Sweeney could be used in the right deal to secure another top-flight starter to replace Vazquez and Garcia (with McCarthy sliding into the #5 spot).

Therefore, as long as we are deeppink dreaming, I think the Sox should give Florida their choice of any three, or four, or five prospects for Dontrelle Willis before this July 31.

That's the ticket for the 2006 World Series.

Then, this offseason, use Pods, Garcia and Vazquez to trade directly with Tampa Bay (or as part of a multi-team deal) to secure Carl Crawford and perhaps bullpen help or prospects to re-stock the system.

Then the lineup looks like this:
Crawford, Iguchi, Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Crede, Uribe, Anderson

Here's the rotation:
Buehrle, Contreras, Willis, Garland, McCarthy

And the pen (featuing three flamethrowers):
Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Riske, Cotts, RHP from Crawford trade or FA

Now that's a team that can three-peat!
:supernana:

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 04:03 PM
By doing that, you put all your eggs in one basket.

And I still don't think we have enough to get Willis without including McCarthy. Fields and Sweeney would be a good start, but we would also have to give up Broadway and a couple more players.

If the White Sox end up missing the playoffs, we end up having to pare the payroll all the way down to $80-85 million because of decreased revenues (want to guess what the season ticket renewal percentage is going to be) and we're going to have to dump enough salary to keep this team from being competitive.

I don't even think we're capable of being competitive anyway without Buehrle pitching like himself. It's five starts in a row and counting....

The only way we can compete is having younger players like Anderson, Sweeney, Fields, Owens, Broadway, Getz, Tracey, Haeger, etc., mixed in with the veterans. Not all of them, of course, but there needs to be a reasonable balance, especially if our payroll becomes unsustainable.

And we're not going to be able to trade Pods, Buehrle, Garcia AND Vazquez to the D-Rays for Crawford...they would be crazy to take any of those pitcher's contracts.

We're a lot closer to the Royals than the top of the division if we have to tear this entire team apart and start over.

Somehow the Twins have managed to totally transition from one team to another contending team in the span of less than two years. It has to be based on starting pitching, speed, defense and fundamentals. We lost that formula this year.

DickAllen72
07-26-2006, 04:18 PM
I think the absolute gutsiest move KW could make would be to trade Dye and Thome for Ichiro.


I'd don't know about including both Dye & Thome unless we were getting something else back. But although Seattle would never do it, I'd trade Thome for Ichiro in a heartbeat.

This team sorely needs speed and some baseball skills. Acquiring Thome, although he has produced well, seems to have turned the team into a slow home-run or nothing outfit again.

miker
07-26-2006, 05:09 PM
You forgot about one main thing....win the World Series.
Apparently that's no longer in the 12-month plan...

Mr. White Sox
07-26-2006, 05:16 PM
I'm sorry, but am I the only one around here who thinks Dontrelle Willis is overrated? He's thrown a TON of innings for his age, he has a high WHIP, low K/9 totals, and a herky-jerky motion that could cause injury. He's also pitching in the NL.

I don't think that type of pitcher is worth McCarthy/Fields/Broadway, or whatever package KW would offer.

StatHead21
07-26-2006, 05:31 PM
Let Pods go and try Owens out there but be ready to go with Josh Fields if things don't work out.

Anderson in CF.

Pick up Dye's option for 2006 (only $6 million) but be ready to trade him at the All-Star break to a contender in 2007 (the Yankees might be willing to give up Phillip Rivers and Melky Cabrera for Dye and Vazquez or Garcia this year)...be ready to go with Ryan Sweeney as your RFer and take some lumps.
Sign Crede to an extension.

Trade Uribe for a higher OBP, leadoff hitter with 20-40 steal potential....combo of Reyes, Furcal, Figgins, Eckstein....wait for Rob Valido to possibly develop internally.

Iguchi.....look to trade at mid-year of 2007 if team is not contending....look at Chris Getz or external candidates

Konerko...

AJ/Chris Stewart....look to upgrade talent in minors at upper levels

Contreras
Buehrle (watch closely, trade or sign to extension)
Garland
McCarthy
Vazquez or Garcia (adios)

Riske (wait until end of season, possible re-sign)
MacDougal (definitely offer arbitration)
Thornton (send to AFL to develop secondary pitches to be ready as a starter)
Cotts (trade or hold onto, in which case Thornton would need to stay as set-up man and not starter)
Jenks

Need to find another reliever to replace McCarthy....Tracey, possibly...Adam Russell...Corwin Malone...Phillips...Haeger...Broadway, etc.

Untouchables....Anderson, Sweeney, Fields, Crede, Konerko, AJ, Contreras, McCarthy, Jenks, Thornton and/or Cotts

Could be traded for right piece in return: Buehrle, Garcia, Vazquez, Cotts, Dye, Thome, Iguchi, Uribe, Pods

Theres many problems with this.

No one will tough Thome's contract at his age.

Ichiro, Reyes, Furcal, Phillip HUGHES etc are untouchable.

Dye and Thome for Ichiro would be the most inane nonsensicle trade ever, from both sides.

Owens, Valido, Tracy, Malone, Russell aren't going to be good major league players, or even major leaguers.

Ryan Sweeny has no power, average speed and doesn't walk, he offers little as a prospect except "tools" which get you nowhere.

Anderson's ceiling isn't that high, he'll be a solid major leaguer at best, but consistant allstar would be a stretch.

Fixing this team this complicated or hard.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-26-2006, 06:09 PM
The off-season will be a busy one for Williams.

Those no longer on the Sox for 2007:
Buerhle -- He's thrown too many innings in six years. The load has gotten to him. Trade him and free up his salary and buy another pitcher on the open market.
Garcia--Arm shot, just a junk pitcher. Get rid of his $10m salary and buy another pitcher or get someone's best prospect in return.
Pods -- Can't run anymore so he's pretty worthless as a leadoff hitter given his poor on-base percentage.
Vasquez -- I would be inclined to dump him and his salary. He's not worth the money.

You build your starting pitching around Contreras, Garland, and McCarthy. That's not a bad threesome.

You take the $30m per year from savings on the four mentioned above and sign Crede to a long-term contract. The you get a few younger, faster players into the lineup to add some speed.

This home run or nothing thing does not work. We did that before last year and always collapsed. Last year, we moved away from it and won the WS. Now we're back to that style and slumping.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 06:12 PM
With all the money the Phillies are sending with the deal and the year he's had so far, Thome is a bargain at $8 OR $9 million or whatever we are paying him for that type of production.

Nonsensical...the White Sox would be able to compete in the way Ozzie supposedly prefers with Ichiro, and giving two All-Star caliber players and a prospect would do wonders for the Mariners, not to mention they have the money to do it and the desire to be competitive. We will never be a "small ball" team again with Konerko, Dye and Thome in the middle of the line-up.

Sweeney is apparently more valuable to a lot of GM's than he is to you, but that's fine. OG and KW like him.

We don't need Anderson to be an All-Star and hit 25 homers per season. Getting Rowand's numbers from him would be fine.

This team is slow and aging....that was one thing that was apparent, and we weren't playing a Twins' team made up of Jones, Hunter, Stewart, Guzman, Koskie and Rivas in their primes. We need to get younger and faster again. Because speed doesn't slump, unless it's Scott P's speed.

And I wouldn't call Furcal untouchable, I was just mentioning some names. If we tighten our payroll, we have no way of paying Furcal the type of money the Dogders are...

voodoochile
07-26-2006, 06:14 PM
Okay, here's the ****ing plan...

Win the ****ing World Series...

Take a few ****ing months off...

Get ****ing back to ****ing 20 games over .500 by next July 26th...

Any ****ing questions?:cool:

Domeshot17
07-26-2006, 08:24 PM
thome isnt 8 or 9 a year for us, hes like 12-13 IIRC.

this plan puts almost all the eggs in one basket, it not only requires our top prospects to reach full potential (which seldom happens) but it requires our on the bubble and fringe specs to do the same. This plan sounds like the Florida Marlins.

Fields will replace dye in RF when the time comes IF Crede stays. Sweeney, unless he completely turns it up, will be a solid 4th OF, Rob Mackowiak type. 260-10-50. Broadway is still too young to tell if he will amount to anything (remember how many studs we had in the minors).

I just dont buy into prospects until they prove something. Sweeney has had a good spring training, and deserves a look if we need an OF.

I would like to see us give Heager a shot. I think if you put a catcher who knew how to catch a knuckleball behind the dish, Heager could be a SICK addition to the staff.

caulfield12
07-26-2006, 09:40 PM
Philadelphia also included $22 million to defray the remaining $46 million over the next three years of Thome's contract, a six-year deal worth $85 million.

How do you get $12-13 million out of that???

Fields doesn't have a strong enough arm to play RF...he would be better in LF. His arm strength was his biggest issue as a QB...at OSU, he got away with lofting a lot of passes to the Woods brothers, but he wasn't very good with the down and out across the field.

Do you really think we're going to keep an ineffective Pods? Hasn't management been pretty vocal about his shortcomings?

Haeger is nothing more than Tim Wakefield, POTENTIALLY. You never can consistently count on a knuckleballer to get a quality start every time out. More like a 4/5 starter.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2006, 07:32 PM
I think the absolute gutsiest move KW could make would be to trade Dye and Thome for Ichiro.


Are you insane?

caulfield12
07-27-2006, 09:41 PM
This offense needs to be more versatile...and our mentality is never going to change with Thome, Konerko and Dye in the middle of the order with Crede.

We're going to continue being a slow, plodding three run homer and a cloud of dust offense.

It doesn't matter, it's not going to happen.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2006, 09:54 PM
So if we had Thomas/Everett instead of Thome, Rowand instead of anderson we would not be a slow team relying on the homerun? We still were a top 5 team in baseball last year in homeruns. I dont see how that makes sense at all.

caulfield12
07-27-2006, 10:37 PM
Who said anything about undoing those trades....we would be out of the pennant race without the Thome deal.

HOWEVER, the offense is going to have a heck of a time manufacturing runs if we don't come out of this funk.

Do Pods, Iguchi and Uribe remember how to play small ball? Because Anderson definitely doesn't show any signs...

Everyone argued after we shed Valentin, Ordonez and Carlos Lee (and Thomas was injured) that there was no way we could compete. Remember that? All that talent in the middle is not only a blessing, it's also proving to be a curse.

Domeshot17
07-27-2006, 11:03 PM
The offense in the middle isnt a curse. When we had maggs and carlos and frank and paulie, we didnt have the guys to hit infront of them. Right now, We do. They just are playing like crap. However, I dont think you trade your 3 and 5 hitter for a leadoff guy. Its moronic. The real stat is runs created, look at the runs they drive in and score, you dont trade 2/3 of the heart of the order for a leadoff hitter who is getting older, slower, and not as amazing. Ichiro is still a fantastic ball player, but he doesnt have that 3.59 down the line speed right now.

EDIT: And then what is the next round of bitching going to be "Ichiro gets on and now no one can drive him in" we all love crede and AJ, but do we want them in the heart of the order? that could be a disaster.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2006, 08:51 AM
All that talent in the middle is not only a blessing, it's also proving to be a curse.

Of course it's a problem when the 3-4-5 doesn't produce, but for the most part (other than the past three weeks) it HAS produced. By your logic, Boston should trade Ortiz and Manny because they might rely too much on their 3-4 duo.

I'd like the Sox to manufacture more runs, but they need men on base. Of late, the hits come with the bases empty, and the failures come with runners aboard. It's called a slump.

Last year's offense - that you so desperately long for - with this year's pitching would get the Sox a .500 record at best. That "curse" of Thome covered up many piss-poor pitching performances earlier this season.

caulfield12
07-28-2006, 09:23 AM
I think Konerko, Crede, AJ and Fields would be enough to get it done in the middle of the order.

This kind of trade wouldn't happen until the offseason anyway, like the A-Rod deals floating around out there.

It's different that trading Ramirez and Ortiz, because they are the only two....while Dye is a much better hitter this year than Trot Nixon, he also has the most value to another team because of his below-market-value contract. Trading Dye is not the same thing as trading Konerko...there's no history of relationship like there is with an Ichiro, Ripken, Gwynn, Puckett and a particular franchise.

Of course, we could hold onto him through next year and he could suffer another injury. You just don't know...the one thing you do know with players in their 30's is that they are more susceptible to injury.

Before you say there's no guarantee Fields will work out (because of Borchard, I guess)...well, how is it that Minnesota keeps producing or trading for young players that have the "it" to play up here....Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer...all of them didn't produce instantly (two due to knee injuries), but they didn't take the Crede/Rowand route of 3-4 years of mediocrity before producing either.

We're due for Fields or Sweeney to come up to the big leagues and be a regular contributor...we haven't had that since C. Lee and Magglio from within our system.

caulfield12
07-28-2006, 09:33 AM
Don't you think there's a possibility our starters would pitch much better if they didn't know they would get 5-7 runs of support each game...knowing that every pitch counted?

It seems like this year, the mentality is, oh well, the offense can rescue us, no matter what the situation is....well, that obviously hasn't happened since that Sunday game against Boston (although they tried valiantly against Rivera).

Of course, the counter-argument is that the pitchers can relax and not have to be on pins and needles because of that offense...

All I know is that having that pressure to produce and seemingly throw quality start after quality start didn't adversely affect the pitching staff last year.

That middle of the offense power has really neutered our small ball abilities with Pods, Iguchi and Uribe...and Anderson, he simply just needs to survive.
Ozzie knew the offense would break down eventually...but you don't wait until it's a crisis to have mandatory bunting practice. Ozzie got caught up in the offense as much as the fans, and now we can't turn on a dime and become the team that manufactures a run at a time when needed, as is very much a possibility against Bedard tonight.

How many times have batters moved the runners successfully to 2nd or 3rd with less than 2 outs? Hitting in the correct direction (see AJ's ball that got Konerko thrown out at home)....I would imagine Pods has half (or less) the infield hits and bunt hits he had at this time last year, not to mention about half the stolen bases. Uribe...same thing, Ozzie didn't have him bunt because he's also in that "power hitting" mode. The only player who doesn't think he is a power hitter is Anderson, and he's been doing as well as anyone on the Sox for 4-6 weeks (with some obvious rookie failures mixed in).

Domeshot17
07-28-2006, 02:55 PM
Minnesota gets good young players because they scout as good as anyone and have a great GM, imagine what Ryan could do if he was given a real payroll to work with.

Im not buying what you're selling

We must trade Dye because players in their 30s could get hurt more easily, so lets trade for a player who is older then him.

You are gambling huge with crede AJ and fields in the middle and 6 hole. Crede could be great, but I want to see it for more then 1 year from him. AJ doesnt possess enough power to hit in the middle, and Fields who knows. He could be good in the OF, and he could suck. But Im not willing to give up on
Dye because of the logic "we are due to have a rookie who is good for once". While Josh Fields may be the answer, I really dont think Ryan Sweeney is.

and with the pitchers, I think it is better they pitch loose and confident then tight and worried. I think a big reason for pitching blow ups is bad team defense. Uribe hasnt been great at short, needs to control this throws, Iguchi was fine but has seemed slowed by his ankle, crede is crede, but then in the OF pods/ozuna is as bad as a LF gets, Anderson is great in center, when he plays, and Dye has been good in right. AJ isnt a very good defensive C (not a great amount of runners thrown out, doesnt block particulary well). I mean, how many times have we seen nubbed base hit, a blooper fall between uribe and mackowiak, a looper pods jogs too and lets the runners advance, THEN A HOME RUN. The pitchers do need some help, and they arent getting much on the defensive side of the ball.

caulfield12
07-28-2006, 04:44 PM
Well, then the fundamental question is, what would you do?

It's easy to see that Uribe and Iguchi are capable of being anywhere from very good to great defenders, especially Juan. Nobody can dispute that.

So you're essentially left with Pods and AJ...there are no easy or affordable answers at catcher that don't dramatically reduce your offense (see Indians' move of Victor Martinez to 1B, Mauer eventually), so we're back to Pods again.

Iguchi obviously will return to form (not great, but very good) when he's healthy.

So we need to trade Uribe, Iguchi and/or Pods (in combination with Vazquez or Garcia) for a leadoff hitter than is also a great defensive player. WIth SS's, the only one you can even think about is Jimmy Rollins, so we need to look to LF or 2B. Ozzie likes Iguchi a lot more than Pods (or that's the impression), so, besides Carl Crawford, who are we going to get to play LF and lead off?

And wouldn't you consider, after Crede possibly, Dye and Thome to be the biggest injury risks on our team right now? We've obviously been lucky with Thome, but will his perceived value ever be higher? When Konerko had all of his offensive problems, we couldn't have traded that contract for a Cartagena, Colombia condo.

Tragg
07-28-2006, 05:51 PM
If Fields and Sweeney and Anderson develop into major league hitters, that would provide a lot of flexibility in the next 12-24 months. (if 2 of those 3 do, that would be good). We have enough payroll to plug holes and improve the pitching with signings. Plus, it would be risky and I like the guy a lot, but trading Crede would bring a haul. We certainly could keep him as well. I don't mind trading prospects, but I hate to trade "near ready" prospects like Fields and Sweeney.

The only problem with Uribe is that he's a tad expensive....but plays excellent D, and delivers some power at SS...that's better than most.
We're going to need a lead-off hitter...they are hard to find.

caulfield12
07-28-2006, 06:00 PM
We'll just have to wait and see if KW jumps into the Tejada or A-Rod sweepstakes this offseason...a lot, obviously, depends on what happens between now and October on that score.

And that STILL doesn't solve the leadoff hitter/Pods issue.

Tragg
07-28-2006, 06:47 PM
We'll just have to wait and see if KW jumps into the Tejada or A-Rod sweepstakes this offseason...a lot, obviously, depends on what happens between now and October on that score.

And that STILL doesn't solve the leadoff hitter/Pods issue.
Tejada's been playing an awful lot of DH this year...his numbers on a SS are one thing.....