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View Full Version : Ozzie = Problem


PicktoCLick72
07-24-2006, 10:49 PM
I know this will bring on some heat toward me and as a huge Ozzie supporter but I think he has been a huge problem during this funk. I mean what has he done besides making a mountain out of a molehill with his best pitcher. Now today he doesn't take Vasquez out in time for the second straight start. It just doesn't seem like he is doing his job the best he can. He seems to be worried about the wrong things.

BadBobbyJenks
07-24-2006, 10:50 PM
FIRE OZZIE GUILLEN HE IS WORTHLESS!!!!!!!




no teal required



Edit: for those of you ready to jump all over me imagine that sentence in teal

QCIASOXFAN
07-24-2006, 10:58 PM
He may be making a few errors lately, but you can hardly say he has been the problem during this rough patch. I can think of a few things that are the problems though, like eratic pitching, very untimely hitting, and lack of baserunners when the big blast does come. Top that with noting going our way (except that awful call at the plate tonight in our favor which didn't matter like 2 mins later) and that would explain the problems. Anybody know the last time anyone stole a base??

chisoxmike
07-24-2006, 10:59 PM
While I do think he's overmanaging a bit, he is not the reason for the free fall...

:threadsucks

PicktoCLick72
07-24-2006, 10:59 PM
I am not saying that. All I am saying is I do not think he is doing a good job currrently as manager. I know the players have to execute but it does not seem he is doing anything to help that. I am not saying he is to blame, I am saying he should keep his priorities straight when a team is in a funk like this.

billyvsox
07-24-2006, 11:14 PM
I am not saying that. All I am saying is I do not think he is doing a good job currrently as manager. I know the players have to execute but it does not seem he is doing anything to help that.

Let me preface by saying I have been a strong believer that Ozzie was the best thing to happen to this club in a long time.

However....I agree he is totally worried about the wrong things, like who is going to retalite for hit batsmen, over-doing the whole bunting practice to embarrass the guys, etc...

Last year his "take" on things was to have fun, have fun, stay loose, pick each other up and that worked. This year he seems to negative about everything and NOONE appears to be having any fun anymore.

Deuce
07-24-2006, 11:20 PM
Ozzie is not THE reason we are free-falling... but he is part of the problem. He has to understand his pitcher's limits and manage around them. We have a bullpen for a reason... its about time we used it BEFORE we were in a hole, and not after.

Chicken Dinner
07-24-2006, 11:24 PM
It's easy to manage when your winning. Last year Ozzie didn't have to do much because we were in first from day one. I think he needs to get into the game more and no the limits of his pitchers.

cbotnyse
07-24-2006, 11:24 PM
I think some of the blame falls on the whole coaching staff, not just Ozzie.

Cora has made some mental mistakes at third this year, however I don't really mind the aggressiveness most of the time.

But where is Cooper's magic? Our pitching is the biggest problem right now and it seems like they are making simple mistakes like throwing balls up in the strike zone and keeping them out there too long (although that falls on Ozzie).

However, I'm certainly not calling for anyone's head. They have time to turn this around.

Chisox003
07-24-2006, 11:26 PM
:wired:


:violin:

"The ship is sinking"

oeo
07-24-2006, 11:31 PM
Let me preface by saying I have been a strong believer that Ozzie was the best thing to happen to this club in a long time.

However....I agree he is totally worried about the wrong things, like who is going to retalite for hit batsmen, over-doing the whole bunting practice to embarrass the guys, etc...

Last year his "take" on things was to have fun, have fun, stay loose, pick each other up and that worked. This year he seems to negative about everything and NOONE appears to be having any fun anymore.
It "appears" that way, because they're losing. If they were winning, everything would be a-okay. I think that's a load of bull****...yes, they're struggling right now, but this team is still loose. They're in a slump, that doesn't mean they aren't playing hard, or with any heart...they're struggling.

Don't start pointing fingers, it's ridiculous...people are freaking out, but guess what? It's still July, so save your sanity for September when, if they're playing this bad then, you can freak out. Right now, just relax, they'll get out of this thing and start playing better ball. Maybe some of you should have some fun and go through the ups and downs of a season.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2006, 11:34 PM
I think Ozzie is at fault in two areas, and I said this from the beginning.

1. He tries to imitate Tony LaRussa with this constant matchup garbage. Many times it completely blows up in his face. If you've got a pitcher that you believe in, let him get the guys out. If he's a quality guy he can get out BOTH left handers AND right handers. My God until the 80's this was S.O.P. in MLB.

2. It's hard for a player who may be getting 'hot' to stay in that groove when he's constantly getting sat for a game or two. You hit well for three or four games, then you sit?

I understand having to keep guys fresh for September but Ozzie also needs to understand that if the Sox don't pull out of this funk, slump, whatever you want to call it, the games in September won't mean squat.

They need wins now, right now, immediately...they are in no position to 'worry' about September.

Just my two cents.

Lip

slobes
07-24-2006, 11:41 PM
I'm a huge Ozzie supporter as well, but I definitely think he could manage his pitching better, both the starters and in the bullpen. In the bullpen, he has too much faith in righty-righty matchups and vice versa. He also thinks that our starting rotation is as good as it was last year, when it becomes clearer by the day that it is most definitely not. He's gotta realize that it's ok to pull a guy after 5 innings even if he's still pitching ok. It seems like our starters always stick around 1 inning, or even 1 batter too long. He may be just freaking out a little during this funk, trying to do whatever he can to help.

WWE Champion
07-24-2006, 11:46 PM
He needs to learn pronto that Vazquez can't get through the opposing team's batting order three times, and take that piece of trash out before he blows the lead like he does every start.

Chicken Dinner
07-24-2006, 11:46 PM
I'm a huge Ozzie supporter as well, but I definitely think he could manage his pitching better, both the starters and in the bullpen. In the bullpen, he has too much faith in righty-righty matchups and vice versa. He also thinks that our starting rotation is as good as it was last year, when it becomes clearer by the day that it is most definitely not. He's gotta realize that it's ok to pull a guy after 5 innings even if he's still pitching ok. It seems like our starters always stick around 1 inning, or even 1 batter too long. He may be just freaking out a little during this funk, trying to do whatever he can to help.

Ozzie manages a lot for stats. He won't pull the guy because he thinks the offense might come back and get the starter off the hook and get the win.

Chips
07-25-2006, 12:15 AM
:threadblows:

Congratulations to the newest members of the ignore list.

TheDarkGundam
07-25-2006, 12:18 AM
FIRE OZZIE GUILLEN HE IS WORTHLESS!!!!!!!




no teal required
Wow, now THAT'S a dark cloud. :o:
Congrats on making Chips' ignore list. :tongue:

kitekrazy
07-25-2006, 12:28 AM
He needs to learn pronto that Vazquez can't get through the opposing team's batting order three times, and take that piece of trash out before he blows the lead like he does every start.
Yeah but when the bullpen starts serving them up, then he gets blamed for taking him out.

Outside of McCarthy and Jenks you might as well sew the name Marte on that back of the rest of those jerseys.

markopat
07-25-2006, 12:30 AM
:threadsucks

Nuff said.................

WWE Champion
07-25-2006, 12:31 AM
Then put in McCarthy as soon as Vazquez gets in trouble. That should've been the plan months ago.

BadBobbyJenks
07-25-2006, 12:33 AM
Wow, now THAT'S a dark cloud. :o:
Congrats on making Chips' ignore list. :tongue:

I really hope everyone knows I was kidding

CaptainBallz
07-25-2006, 12:37 AM
I'm a huge Ozzie supporter as well, but I definitely think he could manage his pitching better, both the starters and in the bullpen. In the bullpen, he has too much faith in righty-righty matchups and vice versa. He also thinks that our starting rotation is as good as it was last year, when it becomes clearer by the day that it is most definitely not. He's gotta realize that it's ok to pull a guy after 5 innings even if he's still pitching ok. It seems like our starters always stick around 1 inning, or even 1 batter too long. He may be just freaking out a little during this funk, trying to do whatever he can to help.

I heard a bit of Ozzie on the post game show and it sounded like he's FINALLY convinced that it might be a good idea to just pull people like Vazquez early. There really is no logic behind the "Vazquez Sixth". It has nothing to do with pitch count, fatigue, the batters figuring him out, etc. It's just "the brain fart to end all farts." (Shakespeare)
I'm not going to ride Ozzie too hard on this yet because he is trying to get these guys right in the head first, which will translate into better ball later. Ozzie's pretty darn good (or bad, depending) at showing confidence in his guys. For us, it just might take a loss or two or four longer than we're happy with. (see: Cliff Politte/The Widge) There's only so much personnel that can be changed.

Wow, now THAT'S a dark cloud. :o:
Congrats on making Chips' ignore list. :tongue:

I do believe it was Chips' ignore list that crashed my game of Yahoo chess today. It's warping space-time...

palehozenychicty
07-25-2006, 01:04 AM
It "appears" that way, because they're losing. If they were winning, everything would be a-okay. I think that's a load of bull****...yes, they're struggling right now, but this team is still loose. They're in a slump, that doesn't mean they aren't playing hard, or with any heart...they're struggling.

Don't start pointing fingers, it's ridiculous...people are freaking out, but guess what? It's still July, so save your sanity for September when, if they're playing this bad then, you can freak out. Right now, just relax, they'll get out of this thing and start playing better ball. Maybe some of you should have some fun and go through the ups and downs of a season.

oeo, i appreciate that you are keeping the positivity real. the sox have been beating themselves right now, which is why i'm optimistic. you can't look me in the eye and say that player for player, the yankees, rangers, twins, and tigers are better teams. i will not buy that. they will wake up and roll soon.

TornLabrum
07-25-2006, 10:58 AM
I really hope everyone knows I was kidding

And that, ladies in gentlemen, is why we have teal.

chaotic8512
07-25-2006, 11:10 AM
And that, ladies in gentlemen, is why we have teal.

Ladies in gentlemen??? :o:

This thread's definitely no longer rated PG...

cbotnyse
07-25-2006, 11:12 AM
Ladies in gentlemen??? :o:

This thread's definitely no longer rated PG...:rolling: :roflmao: great catch.

BeviBall!
07-25-2006, 11:15 AM
http://www.businessnc.com/archives/2002/10/andersen.jpg

Abandon ship!

Ozzie is in a funk like the rest of the team and will break out of it.

EdHerman12
07-25-2006, 11:26 AM
:ozzie "And dey say I need to take sensitivity classes!" "Someone need to splain this one to me!"

GO SOX!

slobes
07-25-2006, 11:40 AM
Ozzie manages a lot for stats. He won't pull the guy because he thinks the offense might come back and get the starter off the hook and get the win.

So many times in interviews do I hear Ozzie saying that he wants to give his starter "the best chance to get the win". I think he should care more about the overall team winning than just the starting pitcher.

southside rocks
07-25-2006, 11:55 AM
Wow, I can't even believe this thread. Nobody here has ANY idea how Ozzie manages his team, what goes on in that clubhouse, what his relations with his players are, why he does what he does, or 90% of WHAT he does. ALL we know is what gets filtered to us through the "news media" and the moves we see him make on the field -- we don't even know the rationale behind those moves.

And he's the "problem"?

Ozzie once said, commenting on sports radio and such: "The farther away from home plate you sit, the smarter you are" and I can sure see the truth of it in threads like this. I'm just saying.

The day anybody on an internet board knows more about managing a major-league ballclub than Ozzie Guillen is the day that I can take over for Joe Crede at third base. :rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
07-25-2006, 12:03 PM
I think Ozzie is at fault in two areas, and I said this from the beginning.

1. He tries to imitate Tony LaRussa with this constant matchup garbage. Many times it completely blows up in his face. If you've got a pitcher that you believe in, let him get the guys out. If he's a quality guy he can get out BOTH left handers AND right handers. My God until the 80's this was S.O.P. in MLB.

2. It's hard for a player who may be getting 'hot' to stay in that groove when he's constantly getting sat for a game or two. You hit well for three or four games, then you sit?

I understand having to keep guys fresh for September but Ozzie also needs to understand that if the Sox don't pull out of this funk, slump, whatever you want to call it, the games in September won't mean squat.

They need wins now, right now, immediately...they are in no position to 'worry' about September.

Just my two cents.

Lip

Word. I agree completely.

It's not oxymoronic or mutually exclusive for Ozzie to both be a good manager (which I think he is) and for Ozzie repeatedly to make the same stupid decisions (which he does).

These are the same stupid decisions he stubbornly repeats time after time, ad nauseum:

He leaves in starters too long even when it's obvious they need a quick hook (Vazquez).

He overmanages the bullpen - this includes misusing and underutilizing McCarthy (who clearly has the stuff to get out RH and LH batters over multiple innings), overusing and occasionally misusing Cotts (especially lately, particularly against Kevin Mench) and underutilizing Thornton. (Last year he stubbornly insisted on using Marte seemingly just to give the opposition a few more scoring opportunities via four-pitch walk, HBP, or wild pitch.)

He insists on sitting Anderson even though he's obviously "getting it" at the plate now, and insists on playing Mackowiak in CF when it is obvious that Rob just isn't meant to play that position.

russ99
07-25-2006, 12:07 PM
You know what you Ozzie bashers sound like?

A bunch of whiny Cub fans. Dump Dusty!

Good lord, the man was a large part of bringing us our first championship in 87 years. I'd like to think a few bad weeks and a few bad decisions won't diminish that.

peeonwrigley
07-25-2006, 12:10 PM
You know what you Ozzie bashers sound like?

A bunch of whiny Cub fans. Dump Dusty!

Good lord, the man was a large part of bringing us our first championship in 87 years. I'd like to think a few bad weeks and a few bad decisions won't diminish that.

It does not put him above criticism. Hold your team to a higher standard.

Ozzie is my favorite manager of all time, doesn't mean I wasn't screaming at the TV to get Vazquez out of the game last night.

Lip Man 1
07-25-2006, 12:13 PM
Russ:

Ozzie made bad decisions last year as well...the Sox were able though to play over, above and around them. They haven't been able to do so as much in 2006.

Lip

Wordwoman
07-25-2006, 12:58 PM
I hate the All Star break. It always seems to ruin our rhythm. Players who attend seem to fall into a slump.

I have to wonder if the pressure of managing in this year's All Star game and the amount of time he had to devote to that game, publicity, etc. hasn't taken its toll on Ozzie and our coaching staff too.

Winning is as contagious as losing. You'll see. A huge win------maybe a sweep------maybe even a trade------will be the tonic everyone needs to get "healthy." Suddenly Ozzie will look brilliant again, the pitchers will be untouchable, and our hitters will be so hot that stranded baserunners will be a distant memory.

In the meantime, it couldn't hurt to pull out your St. Jude holy cards and get those novenas going. (Can you tell I had 12 years of Catholic school education?) :halo:

Frank the Tank
07-25-2006, 01:04 PM
The White Sox didn't start slumping until Ozzie was forced into sensitivity training. He may have lost his killer instinct and needs to be de-sensitized immediately.

Shift
07-25-2006, 01:07 PM
Ozzie = WS Champ

The players aren't doing their jobs

BadBobbyJenks
07-25-2006, 01:09 PM
And that, ladies in gentlemen, is why we have teal.


See, I thought by putting no teal required it would signal that it was so obviously sarcastic it was not necessary to use teal...

TDog
07-25-2006, 01:15 PM
You could fire the manager and coaches and trade all the players because of a month of bad baseball. It hasn't even been a month, and honestly I hope it doesn't last a month. That will teach them not to play bad baseball. Bring in Sweet Lou, A-Rod, Tejada and everyone else people say will be going to the Cubs. Maybe that'll work.

You can also break up a pretty good team that finds itself playing bad baseball.

Building a winner wasn't easy. Blowing up a team and rebuilding it into a winner is less easy.

WWE Champion
07-25-2006, 01:17 PM
See, I thought by putting no teal required it would signal that it was so obviously sarcastic it was not necessary to use teal...
Don't worry, man, the sarcasm was obvious. If anybody didn't get it, then ... well ...

TornLabrum
07-25-2006, 02:15 PM
See, I thought by putting no teal required it would signal that it was so obviously sarcastic it was not necessary to use teal...

You saw the resopnses. You be the judge. On second thought, I will. You should have used teal because the sarcasm went right over several heads.

digdagdug23
07-25-2006, 02:25 PM
You saw the responses. You be the judge. On second thought, I will. You should have used teal because the sarcasm went right over several heads.

Hey, I totally got the use of sarcasm.........:redneck

I want the old Ozzie back. The one that said what he meant, meant what he said. Media be damned, crack skulls, humiliate, throw things, whatever it takes, get these boys back on track! Stop letting pitchers 'work through' their struggles, stop goofing around with the line-ups, match-ups, etc.,

I want a boss that holds my hand and lets me work through my problems.......where else does that realistically happen?

I KNOW the season isn't over, and they could very well get past this and be the better for it, but right now is painful to watch. We have had worse woes, and last year was bad during the slump, but I want the Series again, dag nab it.

A little blood lust would be good. :D:

Wordwoman
07-25-2006, 02:36 PM
See, I thought by putting no teal required it would signal that it was so obviously sarcastic it was not necessary to use teal...

You forget that the replies were directed to PicktoClick72 whose original post was "Ozzie = Problem." I'm pretty sure we could all feel your teal, BadBobbyJenks.

oldcomiskey
07-25-2006, 04:57 PM
He may be making a few errors lately, but you can hardly say he has been the problem during this rough patch. I can think of a few things that are the problems though, like eratic pitching, very untimely hitting, and lack of baserunners when the big blast does come. Top that with noting going our way (except that awful call at the plate tonight in our favor which didn't matter like 2 mins later) and that would explain the problems. Anybody know the last time anyone stole a base??


Ill go one better than that--when was the last time we scored a run without a homer

southside rocks
07-25-2006, 05:57 PM
Ill go one better than that--when was the last time we scored a run without a homer

Sunday. Pods knocked in two of them with sac ground-outs. You could look it up.

hold2dibber
07-25-2006, 07:04 PM
But where is Cooper's magic? Our pitching is the biggest problem right now and it seems like they are making simple mistakes like throwing balls up in the strike zone and keeping them out there too long (although that falls on Ozzie).

I really thought Coop would help Vazquez turn the corner -- it may still happen, but he hasn't gotten there yet (obviously). On the otherhand, Matt Thornton has been a monster and I think Coop deserves a ton of credit there. One of the reasons I'm pretty psyched about the MacDougal pick-up is Cooper's track record with young relievers who have live stuff (Jenks, Cotts, Thornton). The struggles of the other starters (Buehrle and Garcia, in particular) I attribute more to them being tired and/or in the midst of typical slumps. I do think Freddy reported out of shape and that might be a factor. In any event, I don't think Cooper is at fault.

hold2dibber
07-25-2006, 07:06 PM
The White Sox didn't start slumping until Ozzie was forced into sensitivity training. He may have lost his killer instinct and needs to be de-sensitized immediately.

Ha!

oldcomiskey
07-25-2006, 09:24 PM
Sunday. Pods knocked in two of them with sac ground-outs. You could look it up.


Alright you got me on that one--but do you see My point?

southside rocks
07-25-2006, 10:09 PM
Alright you got me on that one--but do you see My point?
Sadly, yes. They also seem not to be drawing walks lately -- Dye's in the 9th tonight, but before that? I mean, I know they've faced some extraordinarily good pitching lately, but still ... :(:

A. Cavatica
07-25-2006, 10:14 PM
I have not seen this written about the '06 Sox yet, anywhere...it's just a random musing. But I've seen teams quit on their managers before, and I wonder if maybe Ozzie's starting to wear a little thin on the players? He's been way too much of the story throughout this team's great run, and what is once "refreshing" can turn grating.

It seems to me that Ozzie supports his players really well. He gets everyone playing time, he leaves his starters in when they have a shot at a win, he makes a big show of retaliating against the Rangers, he keeps his word about getting his players to the All-Star Game.

But then again, he makes comments about hurt players like "if he's not here in my clubhouse, I don't care about him"; he jokes about "hating [A.J.] less"; he doesn't retaliate about HBPs, for the most part, then goes nuts and throws Sean Tracey under the bus; he often gives players a day off right when they're riding a hot streak; and so on. I'm not in that clubhouse but I think it's possible that he's got some hidden grudges brewing. And the umpires probably all hate him by now.

Thoughts?

A. Cavatica
07-25-2006, 10:16 PM
Sadly, yes. They also seem not to be drawing walks lately -- Dye's in the 9th tonight, but before that? I mean, I know they've faced some extraordinarily good pitching lately, but still ... :(:

Radke & Santana don't walk people.

The trio we faced in Texas do. I can't believe we lost to Wasdin & Koronka.