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Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2006, 09:04 PM
Vazquez seems to have developed a pattern of pitching well for five innings (good) and then completely stewing his nappies in the sixth (very, very bad). This probably is par for the course for #5 starters around the league. It disappoints us because he's been so highly touted and has had such success in the past (mostly in the NL). Still, it's time to live with what he brings, for better or for worse.

So, how about putting McCarthy on the same schedule as Vazquez and starting to use the two of them to try for complete games? Give Vazquez the first five innings. At the first sign of trouble in the sixth (walk, hard-hit ball, mental meltdown after a blooper, etc.), bring in McCarthy and leave him in the game (unless he bombs, of course). Use Jenks as needed. Of course, if Vazquez doesn't run into trouble, leave him in game.

If McCarthy can take care of the sixth, seventh and eighth to get the game to Jenks, that saves the rest of the pen. If McCarthy gets shelled, then he'd be ready to go again two days later.

The Sox still would have four middle relievers (MacDougal, Riske, Cotts, Thornton) to handle middle and late innings for the other starters, and of course Jenks to close out the games.

ChicagoHoosier
07-24-2006, 09:09 PM
Methinks I've seen this thread b4.

JUribe1989
07-24-2006, 09:14 PM
What a waste of a pitcher he is.

AaronRowandFan33
07-24-2006, 09:14 PM
PLEASE take him out of the ****in game after 5 innings!

How many games in a row are we going to see him give up a lead in the 6th inning? :angry: How many times do we need to watch the other team's lineup go 7 for 9 against him in the 3rd time through the lineup? :angry: :angry: How many more games need to be lost and what more stats do you need to have shoved down your throat before you realize that this guy cannot get anyone out the third time he faces them??? :angry: :angry: :angry:

Even before tonight's 7/24 game against Minnesota (where the Twins were 5 for 8 and put 5 earned runs on him in the 6th and 7th innings) Vasquez stats look something like this:

1st time through the order: OPP BA .228
2nd time through the order: OPP BA .229
3rd time through the order: OPP BA .349!!!

ERA before his 75th pitch: 3.59
ERA after his 75th pitch: 9.73!!!!!!!



See a trend here Ozzie? Quit worrying about beaning the Rangers and get your head out of your ass about Javy. The man is money for 5 innings and NO MORE. McCarthy needs to be up and ready to go for the 6th and 7th innings at least EVERY time Javy pitches...

I CAN'T be the only one who sees this is is getting furious about it...:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

twsoxfan5
07-24-2006, 09:15 PM
I wish someone else was coaching him.

greenpeach
07-24-2006, 09:15 PM
I saw a recent stat that Vazquez leads the major leagues in run support. The Sox average nearly eight runs per game when he starts. Yet, he's only 9-5 with an ERA over 5.

We got rid of Aaron Rowand for him ???

The Dude
07-24-2006, 09:16 PM
A starter can't be relied on for only 5 innings a start! You've got to be joking! This mindset would ruin a bullpen.

:threadsucks:

AaronRowandFan33
07-24-2006, 09:18 PM
You're right, getting an extra inning out of that starter once every 5 days is much more important than losing a game...

is this really your argument?

DannyCaterFan
07-24-2006, 09:18 PM
Time for Vasquez to go to long relief while McCarthy becomes the starter. If we wait much longer it will be too late!

lumpyspun
07-24-2006, 09:18 PM
I'm pretty sure Javy Vasquez is ruining Javy Vasquez.

ChiSox62-
07-24-2006, 09:18 PM
A starter can't be relied on for only 5 innings a start! You've got to be joking! This mindset would ruin a bullpen.

:

If you think every game he pitches the sox will have a 1 or 2 run lead after 5 than your thinking is a little bit ridiculous. In games that they are losing or winning big, its fine to let him pitch...BUT IN A GAME THAT IS A MUST WIN, ESPECIALLY WITH SANTANA GOING TOMORROW...YOU TAKE HIM OUT AFTER 5.

TheDarkGundam
07-24-2006, 09:19 PM
Yeah, Ozzie really has to stop giving up so many runs...oh wait, that was Javy.
This disaster that is Vazquez is not Ozzie's fault. It's Javier's.

HartmanSox
07-24-2006, 09:20 PM
The answer is not to remove him in the 6th, the answer is to remove him from the team. Or at least send him to the pen. SOMETHING to wake him the hell up.

twsoxfan5
07-24-2006, 09:20 PM
No we got rid of Rowand for Thome.
Edit: I am a fool that is your signature isn't it?

stl_sox_fan
07-24-2006, 09:20 PM
Time for Vasquez to go to long relief while McCarthy becomes the starter. If we wait much longer it will be too late!
But McCarthy hasn't pitched more than one inning since July 9. How much time does it take for his arm to strengthen to go long distance?

What's with the auto change to Fingernails?

Gavin
07-24-2006, 09:20 PM
Just put him in the pen and start McCarthy.

BadBobbyJenks
07-24-2006, 09:21 PM
I saw a recent stat that Vazquez leads the major leagues in run support. The Sox avergae nearly eight runs per game when he starts. Yet, he's only 9-5 with an ERA over 5.

We got rid of Aaron Rowand for him ???



thats news to me??? when did we do this...


Why do we score so many runs for him? Because he is the 5th starter and we are facing garbage most of the time

ndgt10
07-24-2006, 09:21 PM
A starter can't be relied on for only 5 innings a start! You've got to be joking! This mindset would ruin a bullpen.

:

It's good for a number 5 starter, which is what he is. Please don't bring up the money argument either.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2006, 09:22 PM
You are not the only one who sees this.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Vazquez is the typical MLB fifth starter. On non-contending teams, he'd be the #4 or even the #3. The Sox got spoiled last year with Garland winning 18 games as the "fifth starter." Still, it's pointless to expect ace performances from Vazquez after four months of him performing like a typical fifth starter.

Ozzie needs to have a quicker hook with Vazquez. With a 6.5 game deficit, Ozzie and the Sox really don't have the luxury to try to give Vazquez "opportunities" to redeem himself and build his confidence.

santo=dorf
07-24-2006, 09:23 PM
I'm pretty sure Javy Vasquez is ruining Javy Vasquez.
Never heard of the guy.

Ozzie said during the second Cubs-Sox series he would not be hesitant to pulled Vazquez if was putting the team in a situation where they could lose the game. Ozzie hasn't live up to his word yet on that one.

DannyCaterFan
07-24-2006, 09:23 PM
Let's not forget that we just arn't scoring many runs lately either.

The Dude
07-24-2006, 09:24 PM
It's good for a number 5 starter, which is what he is. Please don't bring up the money argument either.

Money is not an issue but please don't bring up this 5 innings crap either. If he can't be relied on for 6 or 7 each start, maybe he needs to go to the pen as long relief. Otherwise, 5th starter or not, this is a crazy idea.

HartmanSox
07-24-2006, 09:26 PM
But McCarthy hasn't pitched more than one inning since July 9. How much time does it take for his arm to strengthen to go long distance?

What's with the auto change to Fingernails?

We need to start developing him sometime, and hell it can't get any worse than "Meatball Javy" out there in the 6th.

The Dude
07-24-2006, 09:27 PM
You're right, getting an extra inning out of that starter once every 5 days is much more important than losing a game...

is this really your argument?

Not if he's getting shelled or hit hard but if it's a shutout game after 5 with say 65 pitches....we should pull Javy because of a trend? I just don't buy it.

gurupremir
07-24-2006, 09:27 PM
I was watching the game... and thought, "not the sixth inning again?!" If you remember the beginning of the seasion Javier was throwing no hitters up till the sixth inning... Listening to hawk and DJ they point to problems with his curve ball... But the 6th inning throughout the whole season has been his threshold ... And about McCarthy, I think he has needed to be a bigger part of our pitching... I have the guys authentic jersey to show him support at the games and think him getting moved/traded might have been better for him, he would at least get to start ..and blow up the NL hitters.

BainesHOF
07-24-2006, 09:29 PM
Vazquez is mentally weak. In a sporting sense, he's a loser.

JB98
07-24-2006, 09:31 PM
You are not the only one who sees this.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Vazquez is the typical MLB fifth starter. On non-contending teams, he'd be the #4 or even the #3. The Sox got spoiled last year with Garland winning 18 games as the "fifth starter." Still, it's pointless to expect ace performances from Vazquez after four months of him performing like a typical fifth starter.

Ozzie needs to have a quicker hook with Vazquez. With a 6.5 game deficit, Ozzie and the Sox really don't have the luxury to try to give Vazquez "opportunities" to redeem himself and build his confidence.

I agree completely. What baffles me is why KW tried and tried and tried to acquire this guy for two years before finally succeeding. Vazquez signed a big-money deal with the Yankees, and his career has been swirling down the toilet ever since.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2006, 09:35 PM
Not if he's getting shelled or hit hard but if it's a shutout game after 5 with say 65 pitches....we should pull Javy because of a trend? I just don't buy it.

I'm not saying Ozzie should pull him just because the game has entered the sixth inning. What I'm saying is that Ozzie needs to have a much quicker hook with Vazquez, especially if it is the sixth inning or later. A walk, or a hard-hit ball, or a couple of bloop shots, or a wild pitch ought to be enough to get Ozzie to make the move, because Vazquez's pattern has been to melt down at warp speed. Of course, this means that Ozzie needs to have McCarthy up early enough to be ready to go when he needs him. If Vazquez has a 1-2-3 sixth, or gives up a bloop hit but then induces a ground ball DP and gets out of the inning unscathed, then of course he should be left in the game. But when was the last time his happened? Ozzie needs to be prepared with McCarthy ready to go in the sixth because Vazquez has empirically proven he's not likely to get out of the sixth.

stl_sox_fan
07-24-2006, 09:36 PM
Can the Sox just send McCarthy to the minors so he can strengthen his arm and then bring him back as a starter? With him on the active roster he just doesn't get enough playing time.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2006, 09:36 PM
Vazquez is mentally weak. In a sporting sense, he's a loser.

Agreed. Mentally weak players need to be carefully managed. Having McCarthy ready to go by the sixth inning is a sensible precaution with a talented but mentally weak pitcher like Vazquez.

soxfan1965
07-24-2006, 09:37 PM
Ozzie needs to have a quicker hook with Vazquez. With a 6.5 game deficit, Ozzie and the Sox really don't have the luxury to try to give Vazquez "opportunities" to redeem himself and build his confidence.
Totally agree - sign of the first walk or hit or any baserunner after 5 innings, yank him. Could have avoided the Tiger grand slam (after 4 hits in same inning!!) and tonight's quick scoring innings by the Twins . Since Sox are stuck with him and his fat contract, I think Ozzie has to better manage him by having someone warming up and nip it in the bud by yanking him or not even leaving him in past the 6th.

The Dude
07-24-2006, 09:39 PM
I'm not saying Ozzie should pull him just because the game has entered the sixth inning. What I'm saying is that Ozzie needs to have a much quicker hook with Vazquez, especially if it is the sixth inning or later.

Your bolded statement is more logical than the original topic. I can agree with that.

Hitmen77
07-24-2006, 09:41 PM
Tonight, I don't know why Ozzie had Vazquez start the 7th. The 6th was bad, but he got out of it with only 3 runs given up. The 7th is late enough in the game to replace a struggling 5th starter.

socaljeff
07-24-2006, 09:46 PM
Guillen should be fired for his handling of Vasquez tonight. Anyone who knows anything about baseball can figure this one out. The guy is good for 5 innings and that's IT! It's inexplicable that he didn't have McCarthy up and ready for the start of the 6th. As someone else mentioned, this was a "must win" for a number of reasons, particularly since Santana goes tomorrow night.

This game illustrates the second half so far ... and I'm afraid it may indicate what's to come through September.

Disgusting.

Viva Medias B's
07-24-2006, 09:47 PM
After tonight, I think we ought to try Brandon in the rotation and Javier in the bullpen as long reliever. Look, that move cannot make things any worse than they are now, right?

JB98
07-24-2006, 09:49 PM
Guillen should be fired for his handling of Vasquez tonight. Anyone who knows anything about baseball can figure this one out. The guy is good for 5 innings and that's IT! It's inexplicable that he didn't have McCarthy up and ready for the start of the 6th. As someone else mentioned, this was a "must win" for a number of reasons, particularly since Santana goes tomorrow night.

This game illustrates the second half so far ... and I'm afraid it may indicate what's to come through September.

Disgusting.

Someone needs a TO, baby. Guillen blew it tonight, but he does not deserve to be fired, nor was tonight a must-win.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2006, 09:57 PM
Your bolded statement is more logical than the original topic. I can agree with that.

So I take it you agree with the quicker hook on Vazquez at the first sign of trouble, especially in or after the sixth inning, but not with designating McCarthy to be the first bullpen guy in and expecting him to pitch several innings?

I think McCarthy would excel in a bullpen role in which he could pitch more. I think Ozzie wastes McCarthy by having him throw to just one or two batters.

MushMouth
07-24-2006, 10:00 PM
I'd like to see Javy Vazquez in anything but a Sox uniform. :angry:

Jjav829
07-24-2006, 10:10 PM
The best way to manage Javier Vazquez is to keep him off the mound.

I mean I'm sure he's good at other things...like...I don't know, chess? There has to be something he does well.

DickAllen72
07-24-2006, 10:24 PM
Just put Vazquez in the pen where he can dominate for one time through the lineup. McCarthy's future is as a starter anyway, so let the McCarthy era begin already.

And don't anybody bring up salary. The combined salaries of Vazquez and McCarthy is the exact same amount no matter which roles they are in.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2006, 10:27 PM
Personally I think it's a mental issue with Vasquez now. He's had it happen time after time after time that it's now a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Lip

southside rocks
07-24-2006, 10:33 PM
Guillen should be fired for his handling of Vasquez tonight. Anyone who knows anything about baseball can figure this one out.
I know you didn't mean this to be funny, but it cracked me up, and for that I thank you. :D:

KW will announce that Ozzie has been fired for leaving Vazquez in the game tonight; that the entire starting rotation with the exception of Javy has been traded to the Nats for Soriano; and that Jerry Manuel is coming back to manage the club to the World Series.

And then I will, I hope, wake up.

Kub_Killer_15
07-24-2006, 10:39 PM
You show him how to not choke or meltdown in one inning! If it doesnt work send him outta chicago because Im tired of him! That or get him out after the 5th inning or when gives up the first home run cuz he really sucks!

Ol' No. 2
07-24-2006, 10:51 PM
So I take it you agree with the quicker hook on Vazquez at the first sign of trouble, especially in or after the sixth inning, but not with designating McCarthy to be the first bullpen guy in and expecting him to pitch several innings?

I think McCarthy would excel in a bullpen role in which he could pitch more. I think Ozzie wastes McCarthy by having him throw to just one or two batters.Weren't you arguing for the same thing last year with Hernandez? The first problem is that it leaves your bullpen a man short when the other 4 starters are pitching. So you'd have to go with a 7 man bullpen and drop a position player. These guys look like they're running on fumes now, and with amphetamines out of the game, I doubt you'll see too many teams going with that short of a bench.

The second problem is that you don't really know when he's in trouble until after the fact. In the 6th inning he had one baserunner. Hook him after on baserunner? Nope. Next is Cuddyer's HR. Hook him after that? Vazquez made a good pitch in the right location and Cuddyer just hit it. Sometimes the hitters get lucky. Do you pull him any time he gives up a HR? I don't think so. It would be different if he was missing his location and leaving the ball out over the plate, but that wasn't the case. So how do you decide when he's in trouble? Unless you have a time machine, this plan isn't really feasible.

ilsox7
07-24-2006, 10:53 PM
Personally I think it's a mental issue with Vasquez now. He's had it happen time after time after time that it's now a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Lip
Agreed. It reminds me a lot of Contreras through his first year here.

Hitmen77
07-25-2006, 08:35 AM
Weren't you arguing for the same thing last year with Hernandez? The first problem is that it leaves your bullpen a man short when the other 4 starters are pitching. So you'd have to go with a 7 man bullpen and drop a position player. These guys look like they're running on fumes now, and with amphetamines out of the game, I doubt you'll see too many teams going with that short of a bench.

The second problem is that you don't really know when he's in trouble until after the fact. In the 6th inning he had one baserunner. Hook him after on baserunner? Nope. Next is Cuddyer's HR. Hook him after that? Vazquez made a good pitch in the right location and Cuddyer just hit it. Sometimes the hitters get lucky. Do you pull him any time he gives up a HR? I don't think so. It would be different if he was missing his location and leaving the ball out over the plate, but that wasn't the case. So how do you decide when he's in trouble? Unless you have a time machine, this plan isn't really feasible.

Really? He's established a pretty consistent pattern.

batting average first 2 times through the lineup: .222
batting average 3rd time through the lineup: .372.

Do you really need a time machine to figure out when trouble starts? Why not pull him after 5 IP for a few starts and then gradually try to work his confidence/concentration back with longer outings.

And if not 5 IP, why not pull him after 6 IP? Yesterday, he had problems in the 6th, but got out of it with less damamge (3 runs) then in other recent outings. So why even send him to the mound to start the 7th? It makes no sense to me.

Here's some interesting statements in today's Sun-Times:
"He's throwing the ball too good to pull him out of the rotation,'' manager Ozzie Guillen said. "But his next outing, if he throws a strong five, I have to think about pulling him out with a good thought.''

...Guillen is contemplating making Vazquez a five-inning starter, allowing his bullpen to pitch the last four.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-sox25.html

So, why are we figuring this out before Ozzie? How many more games are we going to risk losing before the Sox do something different? Are we going to wait until we are 12 games behind Detroit and 5 games behind the Twins before we stop blindly taking Javy into the 6th and 7th inning?

Hitmen77
07-25-2006, 08:44 AM
You are not the only one who sees this.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Vazquez is the typical MLB fifth starter. On non-contending teams, he'd be the #4 or even the #3. The Sox got spoiled last year with Garland winning 18 games as the "fifth starter." Still, it's pointless to expect ace performances from Vazquez after four months of him performing like a typical fifth starter.

Ozzie needs to have a quicker hook with Vazquez. With a 6.5 game deficit, Ozzie and the Sox really don't have the luxury to try to give Vazquez "opportunities" to redeem himself and build his confidence.

I completely agree.

Letting Javy total implode against our two main division rivals is insanity. Since the outcome was utterly predictable, why aren't we putting ourselves in a better position to win these key games?

Well, at least Ozzie didn't start Mackowiak in CF with Vazquez on the hill like he did in Detroit. I guess Ozzie's making some progress in recognizing the Vazquez problem.

Frater Perdurabo
07-25-2006, 08:54 AM
Weren't you arguing for the same thing last year with Hernandez? The first problem is that it leaves your bullpen a man short when the other 4 starters are pitching. So you'd have to go with a 7 man bullpen and drop a position player. These guys look like they're running on fumes now, and with amphetamines out of the game, I doubt you'll see too many teams going with that short of a bench.

The second problem is that you don't really know when he's in trouble until after the fact. In the 6th inning he had one baserunner. Hook him after on baserunner? Nope. Next is Cuddyer's HR. Hook him after that? Vazquez made a good pitch in the right location and Cuddyer just hit it. Sometimes the hitters get lucky. Do you pull him any time he gives up a HR? I don't think so. It would be different if he was missing his location and leaving the ball out over the plate, but that wasn't the case. So how do you decide when he's in trouble? Unless you have a time machine, this plan isn't really feasible.

Yes, last year I advocated this with El Duque. El Duque was/is mentally tough but still threw a ton of pitches, usually was gassed physically after five or six innings, and had two stints on the DL. Vazquez apparently has no physical problems but is mentally weak and seems unable to get guys out after five innings. The result is the same - a number 5 starter (although El Duque started the season as the #3, he clearly was the "worst" starter after May of last year) who can't pitch deep into games.

Hitmen77 is exactly right. We don't need a time machine to see that Vazquez completely defecates his pants in the sixth inning.

IMHO, using McCarthy for one long stint to back up the #5 starter is better than taxing the entire bullpen to mop up for four innings after the #5 starter melts down. That really puts added pressure on Ozzie to have the next two starters to pitch deeper into games than they normally would.

Also, if McCarthy doesn't need to pitch four innings after Vazquez (because Vazquez cruises into the seventh, or McCarthy gives way to Jenks for the ninth), it is possible that he would be available two days later for a short stint.

In addition, McCarthy seems to pitch better when he gets more than one inning. The bottom line is that he's being wasted in a role where he only faces one or two batters every second or third night.

The added benefit to my idea is that McCarthy would start to get stretched out and on a five-day schedule. He therefore would be better prepared to step into the rotation if the Sox have to move Vazquez out.

So, do you want to burn up the entire pen to clean up the mess that Vazquez (or any other #5 starter) makes? Or would you rather trust one trustworthy former and future starter to take care of those later innings when Vazquez pitches? Give me option #2.

MVP
07-25-2006, 09:14 AM
I have an idea too. Trade Vazquez. I'm not in favor of having McCarthy available to pitch a few innings on the days that Vazquez pitches just to accommodate Vazquez because Vazquez can't make it three times around the other team’s lineup. Vazquez should be able to give us a better effort. If he isn’t, then it’s time for him to go. We’re trying to get into the playoffs and beyond. We’re not going to do it with Vazquez pitching like he has. Besides, with the way our pitching has been this year, McCarthy cannot be scheduled to pitch around Vazquez’s schedule. McCarthy either needs to be available to back up everyone or be in the starting rotation.

Pierzynski 12
07-25-2006, 09:15 AM
Dump Vazquez now. This guy is a mental midget in the 6th inning.

Dan Mega
07-25-2006, 09:16 AM
Lots of people here are ready to jump ship with Vazquez on the mound. The same people are the ones who defended Garland in his first few years when he had this exact same problem. Vazquez has much better stuff than Jon and just needs to figure out how to pitch when he gets to the batting order the third time around.

Pierzynski 12
07-25-2006, 09:18 AM
I trust Garland and Contreras than the rest of this staff.

beckett21
07-25-2006, 09:19 AM
Leave him alone or demote him to the pen.

Splitting starts just doesn't make any sense to me. If the plan is to just let Vazquez pitch 5 innings, then put him in the bullpen in McCarthy's role.

Otherwise, sink or swim.

downstairs
07-25-2006, 09:34 AM
Leave him alone or demote him to the pen.

Splitting starts just doesn't make any sense to me. If the plan is to just let Vazquez pitch 5 innings, then put him in the bullpen in McCarthy's role.

Otherwise, sink or swim.

DING! Correct answer.

That way, we know Vazquez can do up to 4-5 innings if a McCarthy gets in trouble. And, if our starters (including McCarthy) do well.... well, Vazquez becomes a high-profile bench warmer.


Also... for everyone saying "trade Vazquez"... do you think other teams just don't watch Sox games? You can't buy high and sell low. The only trade bait out there for a contender is good prospects or good, trouble-free roster players. If we're going to do a blockbuster trade, an Anderson, Pods, or someone like that is going to have to go.

100 Year Itch
07-25-2006, 09:54 AM
The Exxon Vazquez has received too many opportunities; failing mightily to prove he can bridge the gap and close the huge hole in his game. Give credit to the coaching staff for giving him enough rope to hang himself with-- now we know he'll never overcome the psychological pressure of pitching under pressure and evolve into a consistent lockdown-type pitcher.

That was his problem in NY, they say he couldn't handle the big stage, and that problem carries over to Chicago in that he can't handle the high pressure situations and expectations of winning.

We went into the season with six starters "just in case". Well now might be the time to exercise that option, use the luxury afforded and shift the rotation. If not, trade one.

Pierzynski 12
07-25-2006, 10:00 AM
Alot of Vazquez haters. I'm one of them.:redneck

Jjav829
07-25-2006, 10:00 AM
Lots of people here are ready to jump ship with Vazquez on the mound. The same people are the ones who defended Garland in his first few years when he had this exact same problem. Vazquez has much better stuff than Jon and just needs to figure out how to pitch when he gets to the batting order the third time around.

You realize that Garland in his first few years was 20,21,22 and that Vazquez turns 30 years old today? These are the prime years of Vazquez's career. I don't have the numbers to back this up, but I can't recall a lot of pitchers getting significantly better after 30, save Contreras, who didn't make his debut until after 30, and Jamie Moyer.

FielderJones
07-25-2006, 10:07 AM
I hope Ozzie does pull Vazquez before the sixth inning on his next start, that he does let McCarthy take the game into the ninth, and that the Sox win the game, just so I can read on this board what a terrible idea that was.

beckett21
07-25-2006, 10:31 AM
I hope Ozzie does pull Vazquez before the sixth inning on his next start, that he does let McCarthy take the game into the ninth, and that the Sox win the game, just so I can read on this board what a terrible idea that was.

It's not a terrible idea to do it once.

To plan a rotation around it, not such a good idea. It over-taxes the bullpen for the other 4 starts in between, and everyone will pay the price over the long haul.

If Vazquez can't handle the job, put him in the pen. If he's good for 5 innings, then he should excel in a long relief role. It's just that simple really.

southside rocks
07-25-2006, 10:44 AM
It's not a terrible idea to do it once.

To plan a rotation around it, not such a good idea. It over-taxes the bullpen for the other 4 starts in between, and everyone will pay the price over the long haul.

If Vazquez can't handle the job, put him in the pen. If he's good for 5 innings, then he should excel in a long relief role. It's just that simple really.

Maybe not ... the Sox bullpen has the least IP of any AL team this year, didn't I read somewhere? So they haven't exactly been overworked this year -- I agree you don't want to use relievers like Jenks more than the allotted time, but when McCarthy came in last night, he hadn't pitched in more than 2 weeks, I think they said? And KW has added MacDougall to the bullpen, so there are 6 arms out there right now and they're all healthy.

I think that the job-sharing program for Vazquez, where he goes 5 and a reliever goes 3 and a closer finishes it, is actually a good idea right now.

But I also think that switching roles for Javy and McCarthy makes a certain amount of sense too. And then there's the KW comment of a few days ago; didn't he say that the team might go to to a 4-man starting rotation down the stretch? I'll be interested to see what Ozzie does on this.

beckett21
07-25-2006, 10:51 AM
Maybe not ... the Sox bullpen has the least IP of any AL team this year, didn't I read somewhere? So they haven't exactly been overworked this year -- I agree you don't want to use relievers like Jenks more than the allotted time, but when McCarthy came in last night, he hadn't pitched in more than 2 weeks, I think they said? And KW has added MacDougall to the bullpen, so there are 6 arms out there right now and they're all healthy.

I think that the job-sharing program for Vazquez, where he goes 5 and a reliever goes 3 and a closer finishes it, is actually a good idea right now.

But I also think that switching roles for Javy and McCarthy makes a certain amount of sense too. And then there's the KW comment of a few days ago; didn't he say that the team might go to to a 4-man starting rotation down the stretch? I'll be interested to see what Ozzie does on this.

I just don't like the idea of operating under the premise that a guy is going to fail.

I may be one of the few :nuts: left that thinks Javy can do the job, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

However, if the team has lost confidence in him and he can't be 'fixed', I'd rather see him in the pen once Brandon is stretched out enough to move into the rotation. I see no reason to use 6 men for a 5-man job.

southside rocks
07-25-2006, 12:12 PM
I just don't like the idea of operating under the premise that a guy is going to fail.

I may be one of the few :nuts: left that thinks Javy can do the job, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

However, if the team has lost confidence in him and he can't be 'fixed', I'd rather see him in the pen once Brandon is stretched out enough to move into the rotation. I see no reason to use 6 men for a 5-man job.

Actually I think the same way you do, and I was both disappointed and relieved to hear Ozzie say, yesterday and today, that he's going to pull Vazquez after 5 from now on if that's what it takes to get Javy out of there with his confidence intact.

Disappointed because I would like someone to work out Javy's mental quirks and make him able to go 7 or 8 innings even with a lead; relieved because the 6th-inning meltdowns are unbearable now.

Taking a career starter and making him a long reliever, though, is a tricky proposition. Interesting times ahead for Javy and the Sox, whatever is tried!

Frater Perdurabo
07-25-2006, 12:12 PM
I just don't like the idea of operating under the premise that a guy is going to fail.

I may be one of the few :nuts: left that thinks Javy can do the job, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

However, if the team has lost confidence in him and he can't be 'fixed', I'd rather see him in the pen once Brandon is stretched out enough to move into the rotation. I see no reason to use 6 men for a 5-man job.

Here's what I would do for Javy's next start:

Have McCarthy up in the pen and ready to go at the first sign of trouble. Have a really quick hook with him starting in the sixth inning. If he defecates himself, bring in McCarthy right away and let him finish the game out.

Repeat for Javy's start after that. By then, if he still hasn't improved, then McCarthy will be stretched out and on the same schedule to step in for him the next time through the rotation. Then, Javy can go to the pen and McCarthy can start.

beckett21
07-25-2006, 01:07 PM
Here's what I would do for Javy's next start:

Have McCarthy up in the pen and ready to go at the first sign of trouble. Have a really quick hook with him starting in the sixth inning. If he defecates himself, bring in McCarthy right away and let him finish the game out.

Repeat for Javy's start after that. By then, if he still hasn't improved, then McCarthy will be stretched out and on the same schedule to step in for him the next time through the rotation. Then, Javy can go to the pen and McCarthy can start.
See, that I have no problem with.

To make a firm policy that Javy is 'only pitching 5 innings' every start, to me that is sending the wrong message. There are too many variables from start to start.

He has to know he is on a short leash, but if he's not going to be allowed to exorcise his demons then he is pretty much worthless as a starter. (Which, I realize, most people already believe. :redneck)

I'm not opposed to him reversing roles with McCarthy; Javy pitched well in long relief in the 19 inning Boston game. He wasn't brought in to be a long reliever though, so I think that the Sox are going to give him every opportunity to straighten himself out.

At some point, though, I also realize that the team has to cut their losses. I still believe in Javy. The ability is there. His problems are just magnified due to the overall problems of the staff of late.

Excuse me now while I go have my head examined. :cool:

Ol' No. 2
07-25-2006, 03:41 PM
Here's what I would do for Javy's next start:

Have McCarthy up in the pen and ready to go at the first sign of trouble. Have a really quick hook with him starting in the sixth inning. If he defecates himself, bring in McCarthy right away and let him finish the game out.

Repeat for Javy's start after that. By then, if he still hasn't improved, then McCarthy will be stretched out and on the same schedule to step in for him the next time through the rotation. Then, Javy can go to the pen and McCarthy can start.The problem is you're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand you say you pull him right away after some predetermined number of innings because you know he's going to get into trouble after that. Then you turn around and say you pull him at the first sign of trouble. Which is it? The former I could live with, but the first sign of trouble yesterday was back-to-back home runs.

As I've said a few times, both of those HR pitches were actually pretty good pitches. The location, speed and movement were the same as they'd been for five innings when he was almost untouchable. So the question I have to ask is, what's different? Is he getting predictable and hitters are anticipating what he's going to throw? Are they just getting a read on him? It looks almost as if they knew what pitch was coming. Figure that out and Cooper will give you a seat in the dugout for the rest of the season.

FielderJones
07-25-2006, 03:47 PM
The problem is you're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand you say you pull him right away after some predetermined number of innings because you know he's going to get into trouble after that. Then you turn around and say you pull him at the first sign of trouble. Which is it? The former I could live with, but the first sign of trouble yesterday was back-to-back home runs.

How about this: Javy gets 5 innings plus one baserunner. McCarthy starts warming in the 5th (top or bottom, I don't know how long it takes him to get loose and ready). If Javy goes 1-2-3 in the 6th, he gets to start the 7th. If a runner gets on with 2 outs in the 6th, get the hook.

russ99
07-25-2006, 04:28 PM
How about this: Javy gets 5 innings plus one baserunner. McCarthy starts warming in the 5th (top or bottom, I don't know how long it takes him to get loose and ready). If Javy goes 1-2-3 in the 6th, he gets to start the 7th. If a runner gets on with 2 outs in the 6th, get the hook.

Maybe for his next start, but if he's successful under that plan (he can't get worse, can he?) then give him a longer leash.

If the guys could have strung some hits together last night against Radke who was leaving the ball up, he would have won 7-4, and we'd all be talking about what a great game Javy pitched.

Ozzie knows best in this situation, I'll let him and Coop handle it and hope for the best.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-25-2006, 05:39 PM
Vasquez just stinks as a starter. He's killing me. The fifth starter position is once again hurting the Sox, like two years ago. Last year, McCarthy plugged it nicely and should be reinserted in that spot. He earned it.

Take Vasquez and put him in the bullpen. He is good for a couple of innings. If he can pitch two or three innings effectively twice every six days or so, he would go from being useless to very valuable.

Stop this madness.

California Sox
07-25-2006, 05:53 PM
We got rid of Aaron Rowand for him ???

Chris Young, Vizcaino and El Duque, but who's counting?

bluestar
07-25-2006, 06:05 PM
As I've said a few times, both of those HR pitches were actually pretty good pitches. The location, speed and movement were the same as they'd been for five innings when he was almost untouchable. So the question I have to ask is, what's different? Is he getting predictable and hitters are anticipating what he's going to throw? Are they just getting a read on him? It looks almost as if they knew what pitch was coming. Figure that out and Cooper will give you a seat in the dugout for the rest of the season.

These are good questions, and I can't help but wonder why Coop can't go back and examine the game film and see if he can pick up on something. There has to be something there the hitters are picking up on after they face him a couple of times. Maybe they should have him completely alter his pitch selection the third time through the lineup. I know a lot of pitchers will start out with lots of offspeed stuff early and then transition to more fastballs later, or vice versa.

wassagstdu
07-25-2006, 06:48 PM
Time for Vasquez to go to long relief while McCarthy becomes the starter. If we wait much longer it will be too late!
Bingo!

.

starboy0
07-25-2006, 07:34 PM
This is a very complicated problem. We're paying Javi a ton of money (think maybe the most of all our pitchers?) to start. He's always been a starter and to put him in the pen basically shows the organization has given up on him and sends the same message to other teams (in case we want to trade him).

I was at the game last night and he was lights out the first 5 innings. He was always ahead in the count and went after the batters agressively. And then the (too familiar) implosion. All of a sudden he is pitching behind and tentatively.

Maybe the best thing for the team would be to flip flop Javi and B Mac. I was at the Boston 19 inning game and Javier was great in holding that tough lineup in his relief role.

It's getting to the point in the season where he really needs to start helping us. Time is running out.

Ol' No. 2
07-25-2006, 11:51 PM
Vasquez just stinks as a starter. He's killing me. The fifth starter position is once again hurting the Sox, like two years ago. Last year, McCarthy plugged it nicely and should be reinserted in that spot. He earned it.

Take Vasquez and put him in the bullpen. He is good for a couple of innings. If he can pitch two or three innings effectively twice every six days or so, he would go from being useless to very valuable.

Stop this madness.The Sox have now lost 11 of their last 14. Vazquez started 2 of those games. Obviously, getting rid of Vazquez is the solution to their problems.

Ol' No. 2
07-25-2006, 11:58 PM
How about this: Javy gets 5 innings plus one baserunner. McCarthy starts warming in the 5th (top or bottom, I don't know how long it takes him to get loose and ready). If Javy goes 1-2-3 in the 6th, he gets to start the 7th. If a runner gets on with 2 outs in the 6th, get the hook.I just don't think that's very practical in reality. Suppose that one baserunner is an infield hit? Do you pull him because someone got lucky with a dribbler and beat it out? No? How about a bloop single that just fell in? No? Well, that's how the Tigers loaded the bases last week before he served up the salami to Munroe. Nothing but seeing-eye grounders and bloop singles. You're looking at this in hindsight, but there's no way of knowing at the time whether he's getting in deep or they just got lucky. Then one swing and they've scored three runs. It just happens too fast.

tstrike2000
07-25-2006, 11:59 PM
One way to manage Javier....skip his start?