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View Full Version : NY Daily News Bill Madden compares 06 WS with 1960 team


Fenway
07-24-2006, 11:58 AM
this column should spark some debate

from Sunday's baseball column in the NY Daily News

scroll halfway down for full story
http://www.nydailynews.com/07-23-2006/sports/baseball/story/437245p-368438c.html

As they opened the second half of the season falling further behind Jim Leyland's obviously-for-real Detroit Tigers, there appeared to be a lot of ominous similarities between the defending world champion Chicago White Sox of 2006 and the 1960 defending American League champions

soxfan13
07-24-2006, 12:03 PM
the comparision has been made a few times here in Chicago media outlets, also.:rolleyes:

MarySwiss
07-24-2006, 12:08 PM
Thanks, Fens. But as for me, I'm looking forward to the articles that will be coming out in late October talking about how much better the 2006 World Champs White Sox team was than the 2005 World Champs White Sox team. :cool:

nasox
07-24-2006, 12:15 PM
I thught that was Bill Melton who wrote the article after I saw the thread title. Then I realized it was just another East coast mediot troll.

Then I thought to myself, why would Bill Melton write in the NY Daily News?:redface:

Bob G
07-24-2006, 12:17 PM
Interesting point - there might be some truth to our struggle lately to manufacture runs where a mindset has developed among many of the hitters - situations that require only a fly ball or a ground ball to the right side is needed instead of a home run. As Konerko has said on more than one occasion, home runs usually happen when you're not trying to hit them and hardly ever happen when you are. As strange as this might sound I think the fact that the White Sox are hitting so many home runs this year might actually be hurting us more than helping us.

I was at the game Saturday night and it was very frustrating to see so many scoring opportunities go to waste only because we couldn't advance runners or make contact to score a man from third. Sunday's game was much more encouraging but it's hard to tell whether this will continue or not - we'll see what happens against the Twins.

jongarlandlover
07-24-2006, 12:18 PM
But, again, it's been the pitching that has been problematic for the White Sox in the year after. The staff that tied for the AL ERA lead at 3.61 last season, is giving up a full run more per game (4.61) and ranks eighth this year. In particular, Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland, two of last year's bellwether starters with a combined 34-18, 3.28 record, were 18-10 with a 4.76 ERA as of Friday.

Apparently this journalist is not taking into account that Jon has been the Sox best starter as of the past month. :rolleyes:

I can't wait to read the articles in October about the White Sox World Series repeat!

Fenway
07-24-2006, 12:18 PM
Thanks, Fens. But as for me, I'm looking forward to the articles that will be coming out in late October talking about how much better the 2006 World Champs White Sox team was than the 2005 World Champs White Sox team. :cool:

The White Sox are tied for the second best record in MLB. ( one of only 4 teams over .600 ) The reality is the Tigers are just playing great baseball and show no signs of letting up. Right now focus on the Twins and push them back a notch or two.

southside rocks
07-24-2006, 12:21 PM
From the article:
"Over that winter, however, club owner Bill Veeck determined that the White Sox, the only team in the AL with less than 100 homers in '59, didn't have nearly enough firepower to repeat as champions and, in a series of ill-conceived trades, mortgaged the farm system..."

Um, KW hasn't mortgaged the farm system through the trades he made last winter, and the trades were about as far from "ill-conceived" as you can get ... The only "similarity" is that this year's starting rotation is not doing as well as it did last year, and that was true in 1960 as well.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Billy Pierce (who actually pitched for the '59 Sox and has never written, to my knowledge, for any NY papers) said that repeating is tough, because so much of it -- winning the championship-- is luck. I realize that's a lot less fun to write about than "ominous similarities" (opens window and steps out onto ledge), but it's IMO a more astute analysis. :rolleyes:

Paulwny
07-24-2006, 12:32 PM
From the article:
"
I mentioned this in another thread, but Billy Pierce (who actually pitched for the '59 Sox and has never written, to my knowledge, for any NY papers) said that repeating is tough, because so much of it -- winning the championship-- is luck. I realize that's a lot less fun to write about than "ominous similarities" (opens window and steps out onto ledge), but it's IMO a more astute analysis. :rolleyes:

The 59 team as the 05 team had a large number of 1 run victories. This is where "luck" may come into play, "the seeing eye hit, an error, walk off hr, a great def. play, etal." The 60 team as the 06 team isn't involed in as many 1 run games as the previou year.

southside rocks
07-24-2006, 12:37 PM
The 59 team as the 05 team had a large number of 1 run victories. This is where "luck" may come into play, "the seeing eye hit, an error, walk off hr, a great def. play, etal." The 60 team as the 06 team isn't involed in as many 1 run games as the previou year.

Yep, exactly what Pierce pointed out. He said that one-run games "really, those could go either way" and for a team to win a whole lot of them ('05 and '59 Sox) takes some luck; that is harder to sustain from one year to the next than anything else, because it's not under anyone's direct control.

Hitmen77
07-24-2006, 12:41 PM
I don't see anything way off base in this article. He is right in saying that the Sox have forgotten how to manufacture runs. He is also right that our starting pitching has declined even though we basically have the same starters and they are not injured. What happened to Mr. Consistency - Mark Buehrle?

Finally, if the Sox keep playing the way they have been for the last 3 weeks - poor pitching, failing to get hits or sacrifices with RISP, hitting into double plays, having an opposing pitcher on the ropes early on and then letting him totally off the hook and making him look like Cy Young for the rest of the game.....then this team will be just as successful as the '60 team.

This NY reporter may be oblivious to Garland's nice turnaround, but he's no worse than fellow Sox fans who apparently are oblivious to Brian Anderson's resurgence and still keep saying that Anderson has to go and that we can't keep a CF who's hitting .170.

Until this team stops playing like ****, I'm not going to blame some east coast reporter for slighting them.



EDIT: I guess saying "resurgence" suggests that BA has actually been successful in the majors before. Maybe I should say "surgence".:wink:

MarySwiss
07-24-2006, 01:14 PM
The White Sox are tied for the second best record in MLB. ( one of only 4 teams over .600 ) The reality is the Tigers are just playing great baseball and show no signs of letting up. Right now focus on the Twins and push them back a notch or two.

Thanks for clearing all that up, Fens. I wasn't aware. :rolleyes:

MadetoOrta
07-24-2006, 01:23 PM
Mortgaged the future? I'll be stunned if Jeremy Reed turns out as good as JOhnny Callison and Miguel Olivo isn't Earl Batty. If KW trades Sweeney and Fields for a declining Andrew Jones, then yes, this is 1960 again.

oeo
07-24-2006, 01:32 PM
I don't see anything way off base in this article. He is right in saying that the Sox have forgotten how to manufacture runs. He is also right that our starting pitching has declined even though we basically have the same starters and they are not injured. What happened to Mr. Consistency - Mark Buehrle?
They haven't forgotten how to manufacture runs. They're just in a rut right now, they'll get out of it. Ozzie knows how he wants his team to play, and he will not let them "forget" how to manufacture runs.

Finally, if the Sox keep playing the way they have been for the last 3 weeks - poor pitching, failing to get hits or sacrifices with RISP, hitting into double plays, having an opposing pitcher on the ropes early on and then letting him totally off the hook and making him look like Cy Young for the rest of the game.....then this team will be just as successful as the '60 team.
Their pitching was actually pretty good this time through the rotation. If it wasn't for a couple of bad innings by Buehrle and Vazquez, they pitched VERY good. This time through, Mark will be his old self, Garcia will continue to pitch well, and I even think Javy will come out and be pretty dominate tonight. Pitching "problems" = overrated.

Britt Burns
07-24-2006, 01:44 PM
I know I am supposed to immediately roll my eyes and scoff whenever an east coast writer says something even remotely negative about the Sox, but what this guy is saying is pretty accurate. Note that he does not say that KW mortgaged the future in the offseason, but only that he felt the Sox needed some more firepower. As mentioned, the pitching hasn't been what is was like last year, not yet at least, which was similar to the '60 team, as was the increased reliance on bashing other teams to win.

Fenway
07-24-2006, 01:57 PM
I know I am supposed to immediately roll my eyes and scoff whenever an east coast writer says something even remotely negative about the Sox, but what this guy is saying is pretty accurate. Note that he does not say that KW mortgaged the future in the offseason, but only that he felt the Sox needed some more firepower. As mentioned, the pitching hasn't been what is was like last year, not yet at least, which was similar to the '60 team, as was the increased reliance on bashing other teams to win.

Madden is one of the few non Times New York writers who understands that there are 27 teams west of the Hudson River :tongue:

Ol' No. 2
07-24-2006, 02:00 PM
The White Sox are tied for the second best record in MLB. ( one of only 4 teams over .600 ) The reality is the Tigers are just playing great baseball and show no signs of letting up. Right now focus on the Twins and push them back a notch or two.It's a long season. All teams have slumps at some time or another. The Tigers haven't had theirs yet, but there's still a lot of baseball to be played. It's amazing how fast a lead can disappear when a team goes cold. The Sox almost blew a 15 game lead last year.

southside rocks
07-24-2006, 02:06 PM
It's a long season. All teams have slumps at some time or another. The Tigers haven't had theirs yet, but there's still a lot of baseball to be played. It's amazing how fast a lead can disappear when a team goes cold. The Sox almost blew a 15 game lead last year.

Hear, hear.

It's really easy, when a team is in a slump, to crank out analyses of why they might not win the division/pennant/WS if they keep playing the way they are currently playing. I don't think Madden is out of line with any of his observations; I guess I am just not interested in comparing the Sox team of the current year to the Sox teams of any other years. There are and there aren't similarities -- so what? Should we infer that because the '04 Sox did thus and such, the '06 Sox will too? That because the '60 Sox didn't repeat the pennant of the '59 Sox, the '06 Sox will similarly come up short?

It's not history or past records that determine where a ballclub goes; it's the way they play! And do we really need to be told -- again -- that if the Sox of this year don't play better, they won't win it all? I've pretty much absorbed that message and am ready to move on, here. JMO.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2006, 02:37 PM
A few things...

First off I agree 100% with this part: "The White Sox's starting pitching decline is puzzling because there's nothing wrong physically with any of them. But because they've been hitting so many home runs, they've kind of gotten away from all the little things - bunting, moving runners along - they did last year."

Second Bob Shaw talks about what happened in 1960 in his interview with WSI. He says the defense is what the trouble was and that the players acquired by management after 1959 were on the downside of their careers.

Third if you really want to know what killed the 1960 White Sox look no further then this:

August 28, 1960- Of all the crazy games and things that have happened when the Sox played at Baltimore, this one tops the list. The Sox started the day two and a half games behind the Yankees and trailed the Os 3-1 going into the 8th. With two out, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox and Roy Sievers ripped consecutive singles, scoring a run and putting the tying runs on base. Manager Al Lopez called on Ted Kluszewski to pinch hit. Big Klu drilled the pitch from Milt Pappas into the right field stands for an apparent three run homer except for one small thing. Third base umpire Ed Hurley called time! Nobody remembered seeing him do it but he refused to change his call. Both Lopez and Fox were ejected in the confrontation afterwards. The next day Hurley was quoted in the newspapers as saying "I wish to heck I hadnt called it, Id gladly take it back.."End result was the Sox lost and were now three games behind the Yankees. Kluszewski later recalled that this game was the one that broke the teams spirit that season.

Lip

MadetoOrta
07-24-2006, 02:40 PM
Lip,

That story is amazing. The Sox always seemed to get screwed at memorial stadium but that tops it all. Wow.

MTO

jongarlandlover
07-24-2006, 03:00 PM
August 28, 1960- Of all the crazy games and things that have happened when the Sox played at Baltimore, this one tops the list. The Sox started the day two and a half games behind the Yankees and trailed the Os 3-1 going into the 8th. With two out, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox and Roy Sievers ripped consecutive singles, scoring a run and putting the tying runs on base. Manager Al Lopez called on Ted Kluszewski to pinch hit. Big Klu drilled the pitch from Milt Pappas into the right field stands for an apparent three run homer except for one small thing. Third base umpire Ed Hurley called time! Nobody remembered seeing him do it but he refused to change his call. Both Lopez and Fox were ejected in the confrontation afterwards. The next day Hurley was quoted in the newspapers as saying "I wish to heck I hadnt called it, Id gladly take it back.."End result was the Sox lost and were now three games behind the Yankees. Kluszewski later recalled that this game was the one that broke the teams spirit that season.

:o: goodness.

AJTrenkle
07-24-2006, 03:02 PM
A few comments:
Like Ol no 2 said there is a lot of baseball to be played and it is hard to get the big picture. Keep that in mind everyone.

The Sox pitching was kind of sneaky bad for a while but I think now we are paying a lot of attention to it. So far they have responded okay.

Not that I am a rocket scientist with this but as soon as Buehrle gets it together we'll be in business again. I'd still like to see McCarthy and Vazquez switch roles though.

PaulDrake
07-24-2006, 03:07 PM
A few things...

First off I agree 100% with this part: "The White Sox's starting pitching decline is puzzling because there's nothing wrong physically with any of them. But because they've been hitting so many home runs, they've kind of gotten away from all the little things - bunting, moving runners along - they did last year."

Second Bob Shaw talks about what happened in 1960 in his interview with WSI. He says the defense is what the trouble was and that the players acquired by management after 1959 were on the downside of their careers.

Third if you really want to know what killed the 1960 White Sox look no further then this:

August 28, 1960- Of all the crazy games and things that have happened when the Sox played at Baltimore, this one tops the list. The Sox started the day two and a half games behind the Yankees and trailed the Os 3-1 going into the 8th. With two out, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox and Roy Sievers ripped consecutive singles, scoring a run and putting the tying runs on base. Manager Al Lopez called on Ted Kluszewski to pinch hit. Big Klu drilled the pitch from Milt Pappas into the right field stands for an apparent three run homer except for one small thing. Third base umpire Ed Hurley called time! Nobody remembered seeing him do it but he refused to change his call. Both Lopez and Fox were ejected in the confrontation afterwards. The next day Hurley was quoted in the newspapers as saying "I wish to heck I hadnt called it, Id gladly take it back.."End result was the Sox lost and were now three games behind the Yankees. Kluszewski later recalled that this game was the one that broke the teams spirit that season.

Lip I know I may come across like a smart assed fan, but Shaw was wrong. The defense in 1960 was equal to, if not better than it was the previous year. The pitching just wasn't there. Wynn and Shaw slumped badly from their stellar performances the previous year. Billy Pierce looked mostly like his old self until mid August, when he too began to fade. As far as the Kluszewski incident, I remember Jack Brickhouse saying that was the most upset he'd ever seen Al Lopez get.

Hitmen77
07-24-2006, 09:06 PM
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They haven't forgotten how to manufacture runs. They're just in a rut right now, they'll get out of it. Ozzie knows how he wants his team to play, and he will not let them "forget" how to manufacture runs.


Their pitching was actually pretty good this time through the rotation. If it wasn't for a couple of bad innings by Buehrle and Vazquez, they pitched VERY good. This time through, Mark will be his old self, Garcia will continue to pitch well, and I even think Javy will come out and be pretty dominate tonight. Pitching "problems" = overrated.

Still not seeing any better pitching or hitting. More of the same tonight.

Nellie_Fox
07-25-2006, 01:55 AM
August 28, 1960- Of all the crazy games and things that have happened when the Sox played at Baltimore, this one tops the list. The Sox started the day two and a half games behind the Yankees and trailed the Os 3-1 going into the 8th. With two out, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox and Roy Sievers ripped consecutive singles, scoring a run and putting the tying runs on base. Manager Al Lopez called on Ted Kluszewski to pinch hit. Big Klu drilled the pitch from Milt Pappas into the right field stands for an apparent three run homer except for one small thing. Third base umpire Ed Hurley called time! Nobody remembered seeing him do it but he refused to change his call. Both Lopez and Fox were ejected in the confrontation afterwards. The next day Hurley was quoted in the newspapers as saying "I wish to heck I hadnt called it, Id gladly take it back.."End result was the Sox lost and were now three games behind the Yankees. Kluszewski later recalled that this game was the one that broke the teams spirit that season.

LipOn August 29th, 1960, a young Mark Liptak, upon hearing his friends complain about the injustice at the hands of Hurley, told them "the umpire didn't cost them that game. You just have to go ahead and hit it out again on the next pitch. You can't complain about the umpiring, because they are professional players, paid to do whatever it takes to win."

TommyJohn
07-25-2006, 07:47 AM
A few things...

First off I agree 100% with this part: "The White Sox's starting pitching decline is puzzling because there's nothing wrong physically with any of them. But because they've been hitting so many home runs, they've kind of gotten away from all the little things - bunting, moving runners along - they did last year."

Second Bob Shaw talks about what happened in 1960 in his interview with WSI. He says the defense is what the trouble was and that the players acquired by management after 1959 were on the downside of their careers.

Third if you really want to know what killed the 1960 White Sox look no further then this:

August 28, 1960- Of all the crazy games and things that have happened when the Sox played at Baltimore, this one tops the list. The Sox started the day two and a half games behind the Yankees and trailed the Os 3-1 going into the 8th. With two out, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox and Roy Sievers ripped consecutive singles, scoring a run and putting the tying runs on base. Manager Al Lopez called on Ted Kluszewski to pinch hit. Big Klu drilled the pitch from Milt Pappas into the right field stands for an apparent three run homer except for one small thing. Third base umpire Ed Hurley called time! Nobody remembered seeing him do it but he refused to change his call. Both Lopez and Fox were ejected in the confrontation afterwards. The next day Hurley was quoted in the newspapers as saying "I wish to heck I hadnt called it, Id gladly take it back.."End result was the Sox lost and were now three games behind the Yankees. Kluszewski later recalled that this game was the one that broke the teams spirit that season.

Lip

One game does not a season make. Ed Hurley did not cost the White Sox
the pennant that year. On the other hand, if he did that to the Red Sox
Dan S. would have had another chapter in his book about suffering and
woe. Hurley would forever be remembered along with the great mass
murderers of history: Hitler, Stalin, Bucky and Buckner.

I'm really starting to hate comparisons with the past, and I am as much of
a baseball history nut as anyone here. It is just starting to get so pointless.
You could compare 2006 to any Sox team in history that didn't repeat. Or
ANY team that didn't repeat for that matter. It is a different team with
different players. That's stating the obvious, of course. I like the posters
that are mentioning Billy Pierce, because what he said is correct. I mean,
the 1960 Yankees won their last 15 straight games to win the pennant
in 1960, leaving the White Sox and Orioles in the dust. Who is to say that
the 2006 White Sox won't pull off a streak like that?

One final note on these 1960 comparisons: Just make sure that Willie Harris,
the original Willie Harris, stays far away from the ballpark.

Lip Man 1
07-25-2006, 01:06 PM
Nellie:

I'm telling you what Big Klu said. You can take it or leave it as you choose.

Also if you happened to take a nanosecond to notice instead of pontificating I have also said 'except in rare circumstances an umpire doesn't cost you a game.' Then I mentioned Don Dekinger October 1985.

So it does happen.

This is a far different circumstance from the fans who say 'Wendlestadt was squeezing Garcia' (and of course that's why Garcia then gave up hits to the next four batters... :rolleyes: Or Cub fans who blame Bartman for their pitchers giving up five hits in a row to the Marlins...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

The newspaper accounts clearly showed this was one of these times. The fact that both Lopez and Fox, who were ejected for abusive language, proves it.

Nellie Fox was NEVER ejected for abusive language. The fact that he was tells you something.

And the 1960 Yankees 'only' won their last 15 in a row :D:

Lip

PaulDrake
07-25-2006, 01:07 PM
One final note on these 1960 comparisons: Just make sure that Willie Harris,
the original Willie Harris, stays far away from the ballpark. I think I know what you mean here. I'm recalling an incident on the field involving a fan and Sammy Esposito. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but that seems like it might be the answer to the cryptic little ending to your post.

Lip Man 1
07-25-2006, 01:09 PM
Very good!!!!!

I know the incident you are referring to.

Lip

Paulwny
07-25-2006, 01:16 PM
Very good!!!!!

I know the incident you are referring to.

Lip

To make sure I'm on the same page, Sammy committed a crucial error ?

PaulDrake
07-25-2006, 01:18 PM
To make sure I'm on the same page, Sammy committed a crucial error ? That's how I remember it. He was soon greeted on the field by an exhuberant fan, who as I recall told him "don't blow the game."

Lip Man 1
07-25-2006, 01:31 PM
September 7, 1960 - It was 'sink or swim' time for the Sox.

In a game at Comiskey Park Sammy Esposito booted a cinch double play ball with the Sox leading late 4-2. That 4-2 lead quickly evaporated as the Yankees rallied for four runs and a 6-4 win. Willie Harris and his friend, Jesse James (I swear I'm not making this up) had a wager on the game. When Esposito blew the ground ball Harris took matters into his own hands. He jumped over the box seat railing, ran on to the field and before a startled team punched Esposito right in the mouth. It took several uniformed officers to pull Harris off of Esposito. Harris left the field shouting that he was 'a real Sox fan...'

Lip

Paulwny
07-25-2006, 01:44 PM
September 7, 1960 - It was 'sink or swim' time for the Sox.

In a game at Comiskey Park Sammy Esposito booted a cinch double play ball with the Sox leading late 4-2. That 4-2 lead quickly evaporated as the Yankees rallied for four runs and a 6-4 win. Willie Harris and his friend, Jesse James (I swear I'm not making this up) had a wager on the game. When Esposito blew the ground ball Harris took matters into his own hands. He jumped over the box seat railing, ran on to the field and before a startled team punched Esposito right in the mouth. It took several uniformed officers to pull Harris off of Esposito. Harris left the field shouting that he was 'a real Sox fan...'

Lip

I also believe I read, the following day that, the security people were surprised that the guy was sober.

TommyJohn
07-25-2006, 04:10 PM
September 7, 1960 - It was 'sink or swim' time for the Sox.

In a game at Comiskey Park Sammy Esposito booted a cinch double play ball with the Sox leading late 4-2. That 4-2 lead quickly evaporated as the Yankees rallied for four runs and a 6-4 win. Willie Harris and his friend, Jesse James (I swear I'm not making this up) had a wager on the game. When Esposito blew the ground ball Harris took matters into his own hands. He jumped over the box seat railing, ran on to the field and before a startled team punched Esposito right in the mouth. It took several uniformed officers to pull Harris off of Esposito. Harris left the field shouting that he was 'a real Sox fan...'

Lip

I read a couple of accounts: one said Harris nailed Sammy in the mouth, another said "punches were thrown" but apparently missed. Bob Vanderberg also wrote that Harris punched a police detective and knocked two of the guy's teeth out of his mouth. To top it all off, he later tried to sue the White Sox and Esposito.

I read the Sun-Times account from the next day. It treated it as an amusing sidelight to the game, nothing more. There was only one story about it. Can you imagine if something like that happened today? Lord forbid. Of course, we did see it when the embarrassment did his **** in 2002.