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View Full Version : Time to take Javier out of rotation


ChiSoxLifer
07-20-2006, 01:04 PM
Let's debate this. Someone previously started a thread to get rid of Brian Anderson. Since then, Brian has improved a bit. Maybe if we do the same thing with Javier, he'll be able to turn things around.

jenn2080
07-20-2006, 01:07 PM
Let's debate this. Someone previously started a thread to get rid of Brian Anderson. Since then, Brian has improved a bit. Maybe if we do the same thing with Javier, he'll be able to turn things around.

yesterdays post game thread might as well be moved to this.

Mickster
07-20-2006, 01:07 PM
:threadblows:

soxinem1
07-20-2006, 01:08 PM
If the Phils want him for Gordon and another decent player, he can go outright. If the Mets want him for Eric Heilman (who can start or relieve, and is not being used by the Mets in a meaningful role anyway) and a couple other players, C-YA!

Plus, we can get rid of the $30 million albatross.

Kittle'sNeighbor
07-20-2006, 01:12 PM
Time to let him face a max of 18 batters or let him pitch into the 5th and he get's pulled before 2 guys get on with 1 out of less. Then bring in Tracy and B-Mac in long relief.

He's holding batters to @ .220 the first 2 times through the line-ups.

It was like the voice of God when the announcers predicted EXACTLY what happened.

Shame on Oz for not seeing this trend and avoiding it. I can think of @ 30 other teams that wished they had a 5th starter that can get through the opposing teams line-up twice and hold them to a .220 average.

ChicagoHoosier
07-20-2006, 01:13 PM
Earlier this year, it was to get rid of Garland in favor of McCarthy. Garland has been pitching quite well lately. I agree with the original poster - maybe the more we say to get rid of someone, the better they will do.

Didn't work for Cliff too well, though.

bayzbol44
07-20-2006, 01:19 PM
Get rid of him or move him to the bullpen. Quit messing around. He does great for 2-3 innings. Sounds like a good overpriced middle reliever to me.

Chicken Dinner
07-20-2006, 01:30 PM
:nuts: Sure, put a 11.5 million dollar a year starting pitcher in the pen, makes sense. :kukoo:

WizardsofOzzie
07-20-2006, 01:34 PM
:nuts: Sure, put a 11.5 million dollar a year starting pitcher in the pen, makes sense. :kukoo:

Who gives a **** if he makes 11.5 million. He could be making 100 million for all i care, if he can't hack it as a starter he's just hurting the ballclub

eriqjaffe
07-20-2006, 01:37 PM
Who gives a **** if he makes 11.5 million. He could be making 100 million for all i care, if he can't hack it as a starter he's just hurting the ballclubAmen. It all balances out by the fact that McCarthy is only getting $332k.

Chips
07-20-2006, 01:38 PM
Who gives a **** if he makes 11.5 million. He could be making 100 million for all i care, if he can't hack it as a starter he's just hurting the ballclub

He hacks just fine with the ballclub.

Chicken Dinner
07-20-2006, 01:51 PM
Who gives a **** if he makes 11.5 million. He could be making 100 million for all i care, if he can't hack it as a starter he's just hurting the ballclub

He's a number 5 starter that's 9-5. May be we should bench Thome because he strikes out too much. Hello!

spiffie
07-20-2006, 02:14 PM
Yup, that 5-4 with a 6.47 ERA since after May 6 is sure helping us out a ton. Where would we ever get another #5 who can get a win when his team only scores 20 runs for him? But hey, he's only been an average pitcher (ERA higher than league average) for 2.5 years now, I'm sure it's an aberration.

Outside of when Javy plays KC he has an ERA of 6.09. If we have no way to replace him this year, so be it. But if anyone wants to give us some decent middle relief, maybe save us a couple million bucks in the long run, I'd be for it. Vazquez is not terrible or the death of this team. But he is utterly and totally average, if not slightly below average, esp. here in the AL.

Sargeant79
07-20-2006, 03:28 PM
While I don't think he should be sent to the bullpen, I do think Vazquez needs to be handled more carefully by the coaching staff.

Last night, I was saying as soon as he gave up a couple of hits in the sixth inning that Ozzie should have taken Vazquez out right then and there, regardless of his pitch count. He needs a very short leash right now until he proves himself a little more.

There's precedent for this too. IIRC, Ozzie did something similar during Garland's first good game in a while at the beginning of June. I think he yanked him after the 5th inning on only 90 pitches or so in order to preserve his good outing and get him going on the right foot. Maybe something similar will work for Vazquez...I remember more than one game this year where he pitched great for most of the game but got shelled once the 5th or 6th inning came around.

SoxEd
07-20-2006, 03:55 PM
Time to let him face a max of 18 batters or let him pitch into the 5th and he get's pulled before 2 guys get on with 1 out of less. Then bring in Tracy and Fingernails on a blackboard in long relief.

He's holding batters to @ .220 the first 2 times through the line-ups.

This is what I'd do too.

His problem in the third time through the order is presumably a mental one, but maybe it's a physical thing.

Either way, this strategy has to be worth a try for his next few starts.
Maybe (if it's a mental thing), the knowledge that Ozzie will pull him at the first sign of a meltdown will make him feel more confortable out there (because he doesn't feel that he HAS to be out there for 6+), relax him some, and mean that such a meltdown never happens.

Then again, maybe it'd just make him think he's on thin ice, and induce the meltdown earlier..?

Whaddya reckon?

DaleJRFan
07-20-2006, 04:10 PM
He's a number 5 starter that's 9-5. May be we should bench Thome because he strikes out too much. Hello!

You couldn't be more wrong. He puts the team in a hole every time he toes the rubber. He averages 6 innings a start and has an ERA over 5. That equates to around 6 1/2 runs per start. That means the offense has to score 7 runs just to have the lead going into the bullpen for the 7/8/9 innings.

Javy is a typical #5 for MLB starters, but on this team, he is bullpen material.

ChiSoxNationPres
07-20-2006, 04:14 PM
Javy had great stuff yesterday and pitched an awesome ballgame. It was just one bad pitch. If he threw any other pitch to Monroe he would have gotten him out. So to say he sucks because he made one mistake is pretty ignorant. This has been the case most of the games he has lost.

ChiSoxLifer
07-20-2006, 04:18 PM
Actually, I think Javier would be a great closer. I'm not advocating replacing Jenks but I believe Javier has closer stuff. $11 million in the bullpen? Why not? Off the top of my head, I can think of three closers making over $10 million (Rivera, Wagner, BJ Ryan). He's great two times through the lineup and then the implosion begins. It's time to take Javier out of the rotation and get BMac in there.

1951Campbell
07-20-2006, 04:22 PM
How many 5th starters who are 9-5 in late July get taken out of a rotation for performance issues and not injury?

spiffie
07-20-2006, 04:23 PM
Javy had great stuff yesterday and pitched an awesome ballgame. It was just one bad pitch. If he threw any other pitch to Monroe he would have gotten him out. So to say he sucks because he made one mistake is pretty ignorant. This has been the case most of the games he has lost.
It has nothing to do with one game. If over a three year span you keep making that "one bad pitch" often enough to rack up the kind of numbers Vazquez has done it is no longer just a mistake or an aberration. It is who you are as a pitcher. When the "one bad pitch" is pretty much expected from the get-go that has to be addressed. Baseball is a brutal game in that regard, especially when you're a starting pitcher making 10 million dollars a year, you don't get the leeway to make "one bad pitch" every time out when it tends to put your team in a difficult situation.

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 04:28 PM
It has nothing to do with one game. If over a three year span you keep making that "one bad pitch" often enough to rack up the kind of numbers Vazquez has done it is no longer just a mistake or an aberration. It is who you are as a pitcher. When the "one bad pitch" is pretty much expected from the get-go that has to be addressed. Baseball is a brutal game in that regard, especially when you're a starting pitcher making 10 million dollars a year, you don't get the leeway to make "one bad pitch" every time out when it tends to put your team in a difficult situation.

What he said.

Bob G
07-20-2006, 04:55 PM
I would just like to know why he decided to through a curve ball in that situation with the bases loaded. Rodriguez hammered his hanging curve on two previous occasions. Monroe couldn't touch Javy's low and outside slider...this was a mental error if anything.

DaleJRFan
07-20-2006, 04:57 PM
I would just like to know why he decided to through a curve ball in that situation with the bases loaded. Rodriguez hammered his hanging curve on two previous occasions. Monroe couldn't touch Javy's low and outside slider...this was a mental error if anything.

Monroe had been fighting off low-inside two-seemers the duration of the at-bat. He was bound to time one up eventually. Javier could have thrown a fastball down the middle instead, which would have had the same result.

southside rocks
07-20-2006, 04:59 PM
How many 5th starters who are 9-5 in late July get taken out of a rotation for performance issues and not injury?

Yeah, and you gotta think that being removed from the rotation and plunked into the bullpen wouldn't exactly IMPROVE Javy's mental condition ... it could actually create a Cliff Politte. One of those was sad enough, thanks.

DickAllen72
07-20-2006, 05:02 PM
:nuts: Sure, put a 11.5 million dollar a year starting pitcher in the pen, makes sense. :kukoo:

Would you rather spend 11.5 million dollars for him to lose games as a starter or to hold games as a reliever?

Chips
07-20-2006, 06:47 PM
Would you rather spend 11.5 million dollars for him to lose games as a starter or to hold games as a reliever?

I'd rather spend 11.5 million dollars for him to win 9 games as a starter so far this year.

patbooyah
07-20-2006, 06:59 PM
I'd rather spend 11.5 million dollars for him to win 9 games as a starter so far this year.

that's not a valid defense. he has had insane run support. sidney ponson could have won 9 games with the run support javy has gotten.

javy hasn't won nine games. he's won a few, but oftentimes been bailed out by huge offense. i'd rather have someone start who gives us a chance if our offense is struggling.

based on teams' ERA against javy the first time through the rotation vs. the third time, he might be best served by being limited to 5 innings or switching spots with mccarthy.