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Mohoney
07-19-2006, 10:02 PM
i got too mad and turned the tv off. what'd he say?

ugh. that was terrible. i kept praying that ozzie would take him out. but noooooo. oy.

Actually, after the slam, I was kind of hoping that Vazquez would come out for the 7th to save the bullpen. It's too bad that we had to use 2 pitchers in that inning and then had to also use Riske in the 8th.

veeter
07-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Also, after these first two games, I'm now convinced Detroit will NOT win the division. I'm not crazy about their line up and other than Inge and Pudge, their defense is suspect. Not to mention Todd Jones as the closer. The Sox will win the division with Minnesota coming in second.

JB98
07-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Because you never know when Jim or Crede's back might flare up and need a day. As far as Paulie he'll need a day every once in a while. So with those situations out there and Hillenbrand probably able to come cheap who would you rather play to give Crede, Thome, or Konerko a day off? Hillenbrand, Cintron or gload

I'll still pass. Simply put, this board wants every player that becomes available. On WSI, the grass is always greener on the other side. I haven't even started talking about character issues yet. If Hillenbrand is so great, why did the Blue Jays just cut him?

Jjav829
07-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Because you never know when Jim or Crede's back might flare up and need a day. As far as Paulie he'll need a day every once in a while. So with those situations out there and Hillenbrand probably able to come cheap who would you rather play to give Crede, Thome, or Konerko a day off? Hillenbrand, Cintron or gload
Haha, you think Hillenbrand is whining a lot now. Just wait until he gets told that he'll be lucky to get one at-bat a week. Needless to say, he's not coming here.

BTW, just for fun, Vazquez's ERA against teams not named the Royals this year is 6.08. And yes, I know, those games count too and blah blah blah. Save the passionate defenses of Vazquez for another instance where someone dares to suggest that this guy sucks.

bluestar
07-19-2006, 10:02 PM
It looked pretty up-and-down to me. I would expect a slider to, well, slide.:D:

Well, the fact that it didn't "slide" is why it got hit a mile.

I guess it doesn't matter. It was definitely a bad pitch.

Chisox003
07-19-2006, 10:03 PM
I'm curious why a post like this drives you "insane"? While I understand the reasons for acquiring a pitcher like Vazquez for insurance, his career prior to this year can be described as anything from disappointing to a flat out failure. A high-paid pitcher who carts around an ERA in 5's and is constantly changing teams should wave several red flags....

First of all, I hate when anybody says a player "sucks" or is a "piece of ****". It sounds ridiculous.

But it's especially annoying when someone says it in hindsight. Sure, after 4 months of watching him it's the easy thing to say "Why did we trade for him?", but in March it looked pretty damn good.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:04 PM
i got too mad and turned the tv off. what'd he say?

ugh. that was terrible. i kept praying that ozzie would take him out. but noooooo. oy.


honestly not much. i mean really NOT much. LOT of clearing his voice. He said he threw the ball ok and the in the 6th he threw it ok. Said a few I dont knows. They asked him if he had no choice to throw that pitch and he said he didnt want it to get out of hand and threw a slider.
Said it was frustrating it lost and then Chuck came in and asked if that GS pitch was that where he wanted it ot go and and Javy just said he hung it and cleared his throat again.

jongarlandlover
07-19-2006, 10:05 PM
honestly not much. i mean really NOT much. LOT of clearing his voice. He said he threw the ball ok and the in the 6th he threw it ok. Said a few I dont knows. They asked him if he had no choice to throw that pitch and he said he didnt want it to get out of hand and threw a slider.
Said it was frustrating it lost and then Chuck came in and asked if that GS pitch was that where he wanted it ot go and and Javy just said he hung it and cleared his throat again.

thanks. so, nothing that you didn't expect?

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:05 PM
McCarthy should have been in this rotation since April...Vazquez belongs nowhere near a Championship rotation...wait, he isn't.

We need to get this guy out of the rotation immediately. The only reason he wasn't taken in the 3rd inning is because Detroit was missing the cheese he was throwing.

If we can get Pelfrey for this guy, do IT NOW.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:07 PM
I'll still pass. Simply put, this board wants every player that becomes available. On WSI, the grass is always greener on the other side. I haven't even started talking about character issues yet. If Hillenbrand is so great, why did the Blue Jays just cut him?
The story is still developing. Supposedly Toronto didn't like the idea of him missing a game to go adopt a child and berated him in front of the whole team. Because of that Hillenbrand wanted nothing to do with the team and neither would I.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:07 PM
First of all, I hate when anybody says a player "sucks" or is a "piece of ****". It sounds ridiculous.

But it's especially annoying when someone says it in hindsight. Sure, after 4 months of watching him it's the easy thing to say "Why did we trade for him?", but in March it looked pretty damn good.


Oh Vazquez sucks. There is a dif between saying Brian Anderson sucks who is good and will get better he just needs to find his groove then saying Vazquez sucks who has given up QUITE A FEW RUNS TO BLOW GAMES

Huisj
07-19-2006, 10:08 PM
No, but I sure wish that you could read and comprehend what is considered "dark cloudism".

I can read and comprehend quite well generally, but the weather has been so crazy lately that sometimes it's tough to tell what's a real dark cloud and what's just a puffy cumulus cloud that appears dark because the sun is shining brightly in another part of the sky (you know how there's sometimes that funny contrast that can make non-threatening clouds look scary?)

Could it be that the incredibly bright sun that we've seen for the most part over the last season and a half could really be what causes people to see so many dark clouds all over?

DickAllen72
07-19-2006, 10:08 PM
And then if Buehrle had a bad start tomorrow, you'd be complaining that the Sox never should have messed with anything.

Don't tell me what I would do.

Besides, you entirely missed the point of my post. I said McCarthy should be the number five starter because the Sox don't want to skip the fifth starter. Vazquez would go to the pen.

What I said about skipping Vazquez was that if the Sox were to treat him like a typical number five and would have skipped him tonight, I wouldn't mind. But since the Sox want five pitchers to pitch every fifth turn, they'd be better suited letting McCarthy start since he's going to be a starter anyway and he'll likely do at least as well as Vazquez has been doing.

I think Vazquez would do well in the pen because he seems to do well the first couple of times through the lineup, then the wheels fall off.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:08 PM
thanks. so, nothing that you didn't expect?


He was in the corner looked like he was getting that claustraphopic feeling. People breathing down his throat. All that clearing the throat someone should have offered him a Halls or something.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 10:09 PM
honestly not much. i mean really NOT much. LOT of clearing his voice. He said he threw the ball ok and the in the 6th he threw it ok. Said a few I dont knows. They asked him if he had no choice to throw that pitch and he said he didnt want it to get out of hand and threw a slider.
Said it was frustrating it lost and then Chuck came in and asked if that GS pitch was that where he wanted it ot go and and Javy just said he hung it and cleared his throat again.

What can you say...."Yeah, I gave up the 5 runs tonite, and last start, and 7 against Huston...but, its only a temp thing...if the offense would have scored 8, we would have won...I can't do it all MYSELF!"

bluestar
07-19-2006, 10:09 PM
If we can get Pelfrey for this guy, do IT NOW.

Are you kidding? There is no way in hell the Phillies would trade Pelfrey for Vazquez.

Chisox003
07-19-2006, 10:09 PM
Oh Vazquez sucks. There is a dif between saying Brian Anderson sucks who is good and will get better he just needs to find his groove then saying Vazquez sucks who has given up QUITE A FEW RUNS TO BLOW GAMES
:rolleyes:

Ok, you got me.

BainesHOF
07-19-2006, 10:10 PM
How many games have been lost because brian anderson hasnt gotten a bunt down or even hit as well as a pitcher. And he plays pretty good in CF and doesnt have an error. But he has misjudged balls and i know i have seen him airmail the cut off man more than a few times. Its not like they sat out willie mays. My God.

Exactly.

Mohoney
07-19-2006, 10:10 PM
I can read and comprehend quite well generally, but the weather has been so crazy lately that sometimes it's tough to tell what's a real dark cloud and what's just a puffy cumulus cloud that appears dark because the sun is shining brightly in another part of the sky (you know how there's sometimes that funny contrast that can make non-threatening clouds look scary?)

Could it be that the incredibly bright sun that we've seen for the most part over the last season and a half could really be what causes people to see so many dark clouds all over?

That's trippy. Almost has a Horsemaster quality to it.:cool:

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:10 PM
Vazquez is hopeless. If we can get him for a mid-tier pen guy and a lower rated prospect, we should do it.

This is EXACTLY the type of player we HAD BEEN used to....losers. My 9 year old could have hit that trash he threw to Monroe. Totally pathetic.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:11 PM
Are you kidding? There is no way in hell the Phillies would trade Pelfrey for Vazquez.
Of course they wouldn't cause he is a Met!

infohawk
07-19-2006, 10:11 PM
Also, after these first two games, I'm now convinced Detroit will NOT win the division. I'm not crazy about their line up and other than Inge and Pudge, their defense is suspect. Not to mention Todd Jones as the closer. The Sox will win the division with Minnesota coming in second.
If their pitching begins to falter, and they have been hit around in their last few starts, they will level off quickly. Offensively, they seem to have several guys who are hackers. That said, they have a very, very talented pitching staff. I'm hoping fatigue becomes a factor down the stretch.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:12 PM
Vazquez is hopeless. If we can get him for a mid-tier pen guy and a lower rated prospect, we should do it.

This is EXACTLY the type of player we HAD BEEN used to....losers. My 9 year old could have hit that trash he threw to Monroe. Totally pathetic.


my 8 yr old brother could have pitched a better inning.:cool:

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:12 PM
Are you kidding? There is no way in hell the Phillies would trade Pelfrey for Vazquez.

You mean the Mets?

No, but you are right...we'd be lucky to get Keith Hernandez for Vazquez....What a terrible, stupid trade KW made....not because we gave up Chris Young for this guy, but we annointed a better pitcher to mop up relief after he had proven he was ready.

Whatever, we won it all last year...be happy with that, I know Kenny Williams and crew are. I will put 500 bucks on the line right now that we'll never win it all with Vazquez in the main rotation.

bluestar
07-19-2006, 10:13 PM
Of course they wouldn't cause he is a Met!
Oh yeah, well, there's that, too. (I was thinking Mets, but was watching Phillies highlights on the television...oops. I'm getting old.)

The Mets wouldn't do it, either, and Minaya supposedly likes Vazquez.

Droso5
07-19-2006, 10:13 PM
uh Oh, BainesHOF is smelling blood with BA! Face it, Mac is in this game because he bats left. His D isnt close to Brian Andersons. No, BA is not Willie Mays, but he is superior to Mac when it comes to defense. I.E. he gives the Sox a better chance to catch that ball. Get over it. No matter how much he improves over the course of this year or the next you will be saying the same tired cliche bs. Again, Brian Anderson is not Wille Mays, no one was saying he is the best CF ever, we are saying that he gives us a better chance to catch that ball, thats it. Oh, and his hitting is improving. Get over it.

Mr. White Sox
07-19-2006, 10:13 PM
I absolutely understand and agree with you. I was trying to explain to Patrick why Monroe's shot would have been a 2-run HR instead of a 3 run HR if Juan would have turned two...one less runner on base.

I am on record for liking Uribe's throw home.

Okay, gotcha.

I too liked Uribe's throw home.

However, I thought Ozzie should've pulled Vazquez at the first sign of trouble (to me, that was after Pudge's single. It should have been blatantly obvious right after Mack let the ball drop.)

sox230
07-19-2006, 10:14 PM
Can we please have the same lineup 2 nights in a row? It would be nice to create chemistry with an EVERYDAY lineup, because I am not sure if we even have one. We do not need Robby Mack for his offense we have enough, he was brought to BACKUP crede with his back troubles, and spell others in LEFT AND RIGHT FIELD. He has barely even played center before this year. We need Anderson's D. Ozzie needs to stop playing percentages and just put his best team on the field.

Huisj
07-19-2006, 10:16 PM
Also, after these first two games, I'm now convinced Detroit will NOT win the division. I'm not crazy about their line up and other than Inge and Pudge, their defense is suspect. Not to mention Todd Jones as the closer. The Sox will win the division with Minnesota coming in second.

I see them all the time on TV here, and honestly, I keep waiting for their offense to really hit a dry spell at some point. A decent chunk of their lineup doesn't seem to hit for much average, and some guys production really seemed to trail off after the first month (like Inge, Monroe, and especially Shelton), but they keep scoring runs.

It seems like the almost always score runs in big bunches. They've had a ton of games lately where they look dead at the plate for 6 or 7 innings and then all the sudden they'll string together a bunch of hits and walks and then someone will hit a big bomb and they'll suddenly be back in the game or win it. . . very similar to how they looked tonight. Somehow that allows them to score a lot even though some guys don't look that great on paper.

Can they keep that up for two more months? Who knows. They've done it so far.

jongarlandlover
07-19-2006, 10:16 PM
He was in the corner looked like he was getting that claustraphopic feeling. People breathing down his throat. All that clearing the throat someone should have offered him a Halls or something.

ah. i see. that must have been extraordinarily uncomfortable for him, although he sort of deserved it the way he pitched tonight.

if kenny can get some good bullpen help for him - i say do it.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:17 PM
We need Anderson's D. Ozzie needs to stop playing percentages and just put his best team on the field.

Anderson could have done nothing about the 1-2 cheese Vazquez gave up to Monroe, a freaking sub .230 hitter, or whatever the chump was.

Jon Garland set us up in spade tonight to start taking control of this division and Vazzy blew it....I want this guy out of the rotation, he is useless. Good talent, can't pitch.

SoxFanPrope
07-19-2006, 10:17 PM
I agree with the sentiments of many that Anderson would have caught that fly ball.

Although it makes me laugh a little seeing all these "Anderson would've got that" responses remembering the "Rowand would've got that" crowd in April/May.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 10:17 PM
However, I thought Ozzie should've pulled Vazquez at the first sign of trouble (to me, that was after Pudge's single. It should have been blatantly obvious right after Mack let the ball drop.)

I agree....you knew it was coming if you have watched Javy pitch this year..you knew it.

Let him get his work in against someone else other than Detroit...Leland pulled Bonderman after 1 walk...didn't let it get crazy....Javy has a record for this kinda thing.

TaylorStSox
07-19-2006, 10:18 PM
Vazquez is hopeless. If we can get him for a mid-tier pen guy and a lower rated prospect, we should do it.

This is EXACTLY the type of player we HAD BEEN used to....losers. My 9 year old could have hit that trash he threw to Monroe. Totally pathetic.

I love when morons potificate from their computer high horse and call ball players "losers." If being a "loser" means that I get to play in an all star game and get 100 major league wins, I'll take it.

TornLabrum
07-19-2006, 10:18 PM
Can we please have the same lineup 2 nights in a row? It would be nice to create chemistry with an EVERYDAY lineup, because I am not sure if we even have one. We do not need Robby Mack for his offense we have enough, he was brought to BACKUP crede with his back troubles, and spell others in LEFT AND RIGHT FIELD. He has barely even played center before this year. We need Anderson's D. Ozzie needs to stop playing percentages and just put his best team on the field.

I'm surprised I haven't heard that one before!

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:19 PM
Whatever, we won it all last year...be happy with that, I know Kenny Williams and crew are. I will put 500 bucks on the line right now that we'll never win it all with Vazquez in the main rotation.
Actually i'm willing to bet KW and crew are not happy with that, and neither should the fans. 2005, as great as it was, is in the past. The only thing that matters is winning the 2006 world series. Not winning it while being the defending champs, and while having the team we have, would be a failure of a season. This team was built to win a title not a division or a wild card, a world series.

Chisox003
07-19-2006, 10:20 PM
I love when morons potificate from their computer high horse and call ball players "losers." If being a "loser" means that I get to play in an all star game and get 100 major league wins, I'll take it.
:rolling:

Would you put calling them "losers" in the same category as saying they "suck" or are "pieces of ****"?

I sure would.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:21 PM
Anderson could have done nothing about the 1-2 cheese Vazquez gave up to Monroe, a freaking sub .230 hitter, or whatever the chump was.

Jon Garland set us up in spade tonight to start taking control of this division and Vazzy blew it....I want this guy out of the rotation, he is useless. Good talent, can't pitch.
Actually ya he would have. If Brian catches that ball. Then Juan would not have thrown to home, he would turned 2 and we are out of the inning. Also Javy might have pitched differently if the bases weren't loaded.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:21 PM
I love when morons potificate from their computer high horse and call ball players "losers." If being a "loser" means that I get to play in an all star game and get 100 major league wins, I'll take it.

Yippee....That means what now? .... He failed to cash in on the MO Garland gave him, his era is AAA-like now, and he simply made (as usual) too many bad pitches.

This guy isn't a champion pitcher. If you believe it, fine...we should have left his azz in Arizona and put Brandon into the rotation.

Playah
07-19-2006, 10:22 PM
Ya, that game was all on Javy. One pitch!! Hard one to deal with tonight.

No, it was on Mack. Javy pitched fine and could have got out of it if only Ozzie starts BA.

billyvsox
07-19-2006, 10:22 PM
I think we need to to let go of the trade Vasquez for a reliever posts.

He makes way to much money for anyone to take on, and the advance scouts out there surely have labeled him a mental midget, and not a big game pitcher.

Oh, he also has a no trade clause, that carried over from Arizona.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:24 PM
Actually i'm willing to bet KW and crew are not happy with that, and neither should the fans. 2005, as great as it was, is in the past. The only thing that matters is winning the 2006 world series. Not winning it while being the defending champs, and while having the team we have, would be a failure of a season. This team was built to win a title not a division or a wild card, a world series.

We made a mistake in trading for Vazquez. We did not need him. McCarthy could have done just as good and had earned a chance based on the way he pitched in the 2nd half of last year.

I do pray the Mets guy loves Javy and will deal us some talent in return, but I highly doubt it.

jongarlandlover
07-19-2006, 10:24 PM
Oh, he also has a no trade clause, that carried over from Arizona.

seriously? i've never heard that before.

well, that sucks if he does. i was all for getting bullpen help in return for him. ugh.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 10:25 PM
Actually ya he would have. If Brian catches that ball. Then Juan would not have thrown to home, he would turned 2 and we are out of the inning. Also Javy might have pitched differently if the bases weren't loaded.

EXACTAMUNDO.....I am not playing hind site here...the legitamite question with Andersen on a .400 plus streak right now...why not play him???...This is one of the bigger center fields you are going to see...his Defense would help...give us the best chance possible...on both sides of the ball.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:25 PM
I think we need to to let go of the trade Vasquez for a reliever posts.

He makes way to much money for anyone to take on, and the advance scouts out there surely have labeled him a mental midget, and not a big game pitcher.

Oh, he also has a no trade clause, that carried over from Arizona.


Put Vazquez the "loser" in the Bullpen then and bring up Brandon

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:27 PM
Actually ya he would have. If Brian catches that ball. Then Juan would not have thrown to home, he would turned 2 and we are out of the inning. Also Javy might have pitched differently if the bases weren't loaded.


I agree with that accept there is no point of shoulda woulda couldas. Javy blew that game simple as that. And sure our offense should have came up with some more runs that is a no brainer but the simple fact is that Javy blew the momentum and the game.

NoShoesJoe
07-19-2006, 10:28 PM
Whatever happens from now through the end of the season, I think THIS series will be a turning point one way or the other for both the Sox and Tigers.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:29 PM
I love when morons potificate from their computer high horse and call ball players "losers." If being a "loser" means that I get to play in an all star game and get 100 major league wins, I'll take it.

I love it when MORONS post meaningless crap that means...well NOTHING. Who cares if he went to a damn ASG or has 1000 wins...

Can he lead us to the World Series? My anser is a resounding HELL NO. It was HELL NO last year and it still is. This was a BS trade....55 should have gone into the rotation. Instead we got a freaking BP pitcher in there.

Did you watch him pitch? He had a 2 hitter through 5 and had made probably 10 pisspoor pitches (WAY UP)....only problem was a pisspoor bunch of mediocre hitters (Detroit) let him off the hook. But even they finally started to get him.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:29 PM
No, it was on Mack. Javy pitched fine and could have got out of it if only Ozzie starts BA.

No its not on Mackowiak he doesn't make the lineups. Hell the guy has said on many occassions he isn't a Centerfielder. This game is on Ozzie and Javy. Ozzie needs to play his best players everyday. Javy has to relax out there and avoid his blow-up that he has every single game.

[/quote]I think we need to to let go of the trade Vasquez for a reliever posts.

He makes way to much money for anyone to take on, and the advance scouts out there surely have labeled him a mental midget, and not a big game pitcher

Oh, he also has a no trade clause, that carried over from Arizona.[/quote]

Actually I believe the no trade clause was waived when he got dealt to the Sox. As far as dropping the trade for a reliever. Teams will most certainly be willing to deal for him. If your in a tight playoff race and need a starter you would be willing to take Javy.

billyvsox
07-19-2006, 10:31 PM
No its not on Mackowiak he doesn't make the lineups. Hell the guy has said on many occassions he isn't a Centerfielder. This game is on Ozzie and Javy. Ozzie needs to play his best players everyday. Javy has to relax out there and avoid his blow-up that he has every single game.

I think we need to to let go of the trade Vasquez for a reliever posts.

He makes way to much money for anyone to take on, and the advance scouts out there surely have labeled him a mental midget, and not a big game pitcher

Oh, he also has a no trade clause, that carried over from Arizona.[/quote]

Actually I believe the no trade clause was waived when he got dealt to the Sox. As far as dropping the trade for a reliever. Teams will most certainly be willing to deal for him. If your in a tight playoff race and need a starter you would be willing to take Javy.[/quote]

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:31 PM
I agree with that accept there is no point of shoulda woulda couldas. Javy blew that game simple as that. And sure our offense should have came up with some more runs that is a no brainer but the simple fact is that Javy blew the momentum and the game.
Oh I agree with you I was just responding to someone saying that Brian wouldn't have made a difference when clearly he would have.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:32 PM
Actually I believe the no trade clause was waived when he got dealt to the Sox. As far as dropping the trade for a reliever. Teams will most certainly be willing to deal for him. If your in a tight playoff race and need a starter you would be willing to take Javy.


Then bring them on. Even though Freddie looks like he may be winding down I'd rather take my chances on a guy who pitches us to a 1-0 WS clinching win than this joker.

Call the Mets NOW and get Pelfrey and a A player and be done with it.

BeviBall!
07-19-2006, 10:34 PM
By the tone of this thread, I would assume it's September 25 and we're 4.5 out with 7 to play.

Nope, still July 19. And we still have a chance to win this series.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:34 PM
Oh I agree with you I was just responding to someone saying that Brian wouldn't have made a difference when clearly he would have.


This Brian bashing is getting old. Brian's defense is a hell of alot better then Rob could dream about. Sure he was having troubles hitting, but he is getting into the groove and hitting pretty well. He has saved the pitchers ass quite often. I love Brian and I think he is going to going to be kick ass CF.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:35 PM
Then bring them on. Even though Freddie looks like he may be winding down I'd rather take my chances on a guy who pitches us to a 1-0 WS clinching win than this joker.

Call the Mets NOW and get Pelfrey and a A player and be done with it.
Right now as bad as Javy has been I would still take him over Freddy. Great he pitched a 1-0 world series clincher, but what has he done lately? At least Javy has the ability to give you 4-5 innings, can Freddy even give us that anymore? For a guy that people call a "Big Game" pitcher he really didn't show up in the Bronx.

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:35 PM
By the tone of this thread, I would assume it's September 25 and we're 4.5 out with 7 to play.

Nope, still July 19. And we still have a chance to win this series.

I dont think so. This game was bull ****. No one is saying this team sucks just Javy.


EDIT: Oh and ROB'S defense

TaylorStSox
07-19-2006, 10:36 PM
Then bring them on. Even though Freddie looks like he may be winding down I'd rather take my chances on a guy who pitches us to a 1-0 WS clinching win than this joker.

Call the Mets NOW and get Pelfrey and a A player and be done with it.

At least Javy's healthy. Garcia shows every indication of either A) Being hurt or B) Getting old real fast.

soxfan65
07-19-2006, 10:39 PM
If championships are built on great defense and pitching, the sox need to start bearing down and get both on a consistant basis. Oh, and never,never,never let Vaz pitch for more than 5 innings again(at least in a white sox uniform) Hitting is great, but the really solid pitching staffs can usually hold onto a 2 run lead. I think the sox can go out tomorrow and take the series.:D: :D:

BeviBall!
07-19-2006, 10:40 PM
I dont think so. This game was bull ****. No one is saying this team sucks just Javy.


EDIT: Oh and ROB'S defense

I know but geeeez... we've known since May that Javy will meltdown and Mack can't field. It seems like a surprise to half these people.

michned
07-19-2006, 10:41 PM
What a terrible, stupid trade KW made....not because we gave up Chris Young for this guy, but we annointed a better pitcher to mop up relief after he had proven he was ready.

Hindsight is 20/20. It may have been a case of Sox management thinking Ozzie and Coop could straighten out his headcase tendencies. I know I thought the trade was a steal for the Sox and figured Coop would work his magic. Not so far.

What a shame though. I just remember how dominating he was with the Expos, but as soon as the stakes were raised and he got to NY, he pretty much fell apart despite some flashes of brilliance.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 10:41 PM
Right now as bad as Javy has been I would still take him over Freddy. Great he pitched a 1-0 world series clincher, but what has he done lately? At least Javy has the ability to give you 4-5 innings, can Freddy even give us that anymore? For a guy that people call a "Big Game" pitcher he really didn't show up in the Bronx.

Wow...he gives you 4 innings? Whippie...

Difference is...Garcia freaking EARNED the benefit of the doubt. By what he has done for the past couple years and his masterry in the 05 post season he gets my support.

Vazquez has NEVER done what Freddie did and NEVER will...NEVER. To that end, Ill take my chances that Garcia gets his act together and starts rolling.

You don't go from dominant WS pitcher to waiver fodder in 4 months....Freddie and Mark just need to recharge.

doctorlecter
07-19-2006, 10:42 PM
There IS a middle ground to this whole thing. Ozzie needs to start treating this guy like A NUMBER FIVE STARTER. All of the scouts know that he has top of the rotation type stuff, but as soon as he gets in trouble, he makes mistake after mistake. Hope to get five-six innings TOP out of him. Have someone ready in the fifth, and the second he puts more than one guy on, go get him. I don't want to trade a guy with his stuff. Putting Brandon in the rotation could mess up his arm after being in the pen for this long. Keep Javy in the rotation, but keep him on a short leash, like most number five starters are on.

CLR01
07-19-2006, 10:43 PM
I love it when MORONS post meaningless crap that means...well NOTHING. Who cares if he went to a damn ASG or has 1000 wins...

Can he lead us to the World Series? My anser is a resounding HELL NO. It was HELL NO last year and it still is. This was a BS trade....55 should have gone into the rotation. Instead we got a freaking BP pitcher in there.

Did you watch him pitch? He had a 2 hitter through 5 and had made probably 10 pisspoor pitches (WAY UP)....only problem was a pisspoor bunch of mediocre hitters (Detroit) let him off the hook. But even they finally started to get him.


I love it when members call other members morons on this site. It gives me a chance to get some target practice in. See you both in a week. I hope by then you will have brushed up on the Code of Conduct.

SoxSpeed22
07-19-2006, 10:44 PM
Like I said earlier, way too many 2 strike mistakes.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 10:44 PM
Ummm...I am going to get a beer, anyone want one?

Ohhh, and BTW...put me on the "Javy broke my heart tonite." list please.

Thanks

And another thing...does Coops justification for not worring about the ERAs starting to sound like Schoop with his, "I'll stand by my record." stance after the 2001 season....Shudder the thought. It just came to me.

sox230
07-19-2006, 10:44 PM
As said earlier:
I know but geeeez... we've known since May that Javy will meltdown and Mack can't field. It seems like a surprise to half these people.

If we have known this for a while, then how come we havent done anything about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jenn2080
07-19-2006, 10:45 PM
I know but geeeez... we've known since May that Javy will meltdown and Mack can't field. It seems like a surprise to half these people.


I dont disagree with you however today was just unfreaking believable. I did get a chance to straighten up my apt though after Javy's **** inning.

And I for this I would take him over Garcia talk. Absolutely not. Freddy has proven what hes got and def has earned the chance to see what he can do this year. Sure he has sucked and it hasnt been pretty but I have more faith in him that Javy.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 10:48 PM
I dont disagree with you however today was just unfreaking believable. I did get a chance to straighten up my apt though after Javy's **** inning.

And I for this I would take him over Garcia talk. Absolutely not. Freddy has proven what hes got and def has earned the chance to see what he can do this year. Sure he has sucked and it hasnt been pretty but I have more faith in him that Javy.

Yeah, dude....what she said...give 'em the what for. We have known it, we are just tired of reliving it.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:51 PM
As said earlier:
I know but geeeez... we've known since May that Javy will meltdown and Mack can't field. It seems like a surprise to half these people.

If we have known this for a while, then how come we havent done anything about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well simple we thought Javy would do the job he hasn't. However starting pitchers don't grow on trees. You may say Brandon shoulda been the #5 but in the same response relief pitching doesn't grow on trees either. As far as Mackowiak I think Ozzie and KW over-valued his abilities and assumed he would be able to handle centerfield.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:53 PM
Sure he has sucked and it hasnt been pretty but I have more faith in him that Javy.
To be honest I don't have faith in either Freddy or Javy, I based my decision on pure talent.

Blueprint1
07-19-2006, 10:56 PM
Well Jose pitches tomorrow. We just need to win the series.

Jerko
07-19-2006, 10:57 PM
I'm not saying this is the end all/be all, or the focal point of the recent losses, but the Sox have played their opening day lineup ONCE since the All-Star break ended, and hey, that's the one game they won! I know people need their rest, but how about the "everyday" lineup at least getting 2 games in a row in against the teams you're chasing and/or trying to hold off? I'm sure we'll see Ozuna/Widge tomorrow, which means of the SIX games with the Yankees and Tigers, the Sox fielded the regular lineup ONCE. I know it's not September yet, but it's not May anymore either. Time to start making up some games here boys.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 10:57 PM
To be honest I don't have faith in either Freddy or Javy, I based my decision on pure talent.

Let's not get crazy now...Freddy was a main cog in a Series run (successful) less than a year ago.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 10:58 PM
Well Jose pitches tomorrow. We just need to win the series.
Hopefully Jose gets back on track. He has been shakey as off late. In May there would have been no chance of me saying Garland was currently performing like our best pitcher.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 11:00 PM
Let's not get crazy now...Freddy was a main cog in a Series run (successful) less than a year ago.
Ya back when he was a pitcher who threw over 90 mph. The playoff performances were great, and I thank Freddy, however what has he done for us lately?

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 11:01 PM
That is very true about Garland....the only thing about Javy is, well, he obviously has a reoccurring mental lock going on each game...he is too distracted by a bloop, error, non-call...etc.

This is all between his ears, and it has been for a while.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 11:05 PM
Ya back when he was a pitcher who threw over 90 mph. The playoff performances were great, and I thank Freddy, however what has he done for us lately?

He has had good performances this year (trust me, I was at the 2nd game of the year when he, well sucked, against Cleveland, so I know he has been off) but he has had good stuff.

Every pitcher goes through Dead Arm season (Mark, right now?) but Javy hasn't had that problem...he is just not clutch...so far.

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-19-2006, 11:10 PM
this has probably been adressed, but HOW MANY MORE ****ING TIMES do we need to say "START ANDERSON EVERYDAY"???

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 11:15 PM
this has probably been adressed, but HOW MANY MORE ****ING TIMES do we need to say "START ANDERSON EVERYDAY"???

At least one more (golf clap). Too much is never enough.

Remember, I believe it was Ben Franklin that said," A run saved, is a run earned."

Sometimes the D can save the game....

If he is our guy, let him play...especially since he has been hitting recently.

Corlose 15
07-19-2006, 11:17 PM
Let me just put some of Vazquez's numbers out there.

His ERA in the month of June (5 starts) was 7.50. His ERA so far this month with 4 appearances and 3 starts is 6.16. He hasn't pitched 7 innings since May 18th in Tampa Bay where he went a stellar 7IP 5ER. Thats 10 straight starts.

The first time through the order he has a BAA of .228 and an ERA of 2.18. The second time through the order he has a .229 BAA and an ERA of 2.54. The third time through the order teams are hitting .347 off of him and he has a 10.09 ERA. Even when he was pitching well he was getting hurt the third time through the order.


http://tofuhut.racknine.net/pics/critic.jpg
"He stinks!"

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 11:19 PM
Let me just put some of Vazquez's numbers out there.

His ERA in the month of June (5 starts) was 7.50. His ERA so far this month with 4 appearances and 3 starts is 6.16. He hasn't pitched 7 innings since May 18th in Tampa Bay where he went a stellar 7IP 5ER. Thats 10 straight starts.

The first time through the order he has a BAA of .228 and an ERA of 2.18. The second time through the order he has a .229 BAA and an ERA of 2.54. The third time through the order teams are hitting .347 off of him and he has a 10.09 ERA. Even when he was pitching well he was getting hurt the third time through the order.


http://tofuhut.racknine.net/pics/critic.jpg
"He stinks!"
Set-up man?

doobee_yoobee
07-19-2006, 11:24 PM
Set-up man?

For Charlotte.

Corlose 15
07-19-2006, 11:24 PM
Set-up man?

He'd be a pretty expensive set up man.

Mercy!
07-19-2006, 11:27 PM
We would've won this game if shoplifters were kept in jail.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1940868)....Hey! I see the potential for some cool ball park signs in his future. Something like: Monroe, He Can Really Belt 'Em out of the Store Park

slobes
07-19-2006, 11:31 PM
When Vasquez really gets into trouble is when he leaves stuff out over the plate. I didn't see it on tv, but I believe Farmer said that the grand slam was hit on a slider right over the middle of the plate.

It is getting really hard to stay positive about him though...

SluggersAway
07-19-2006, 11:32 PM
this bares repeating:

There IS a middle ground to this whole thing. Ozzie needs to start treating this guy like A NUMBER FIVE STARTER. All of the scouts know that he has top of the rotation type stuff, but as soon as he gets in trouble, he makes mistake after mistake. Hope to get five-six innings TOP out of him. Have someone ready in the fifth, and the second he puts more than one guy on, go get him. I don't want to trade a guy with his stuff. Putting Brandon in the rotation could mess up his arm after being in the pen for this long. Keep Javy in the rotation, but keep him on a short leash, like most number five starters are on.

Our BP can handle the rest.

hawkjt
07-19-2006, 11:39 PM
I am with leyland who said tonite the pennant race starts in september. We just have to get there in good shape and I will take my chances with the sox roster over any other.

Win tomorrow and we are off to a flying start with a pitching tired texas coming to chicago. then the red hot twins.

lets go Jose.

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 11:40 PM
When Vasquez really gets into trouble is when he leaves stuff out over the plate.
That is hard hitting expert jounalism right there. To come to a conclusion such as that truly shows how unique and informative you are. :D:
Just joking with you with the sarcasm. I think all pitchers get into trouble when they leave their stuff over the plate, and yes I meant their pitching stuff, not there well you know other stuff (Sorry to go all Farmio on you).

NoShoesJoe
07-19-2006, 11:42 PM
He'd be a pretty expensive set up man.

What difference does it make if he fills the niche and the Sox win?

Can you say "El Duque?"

BadBobbyJenks
07-19-2006, 11:44 PM
He's gutless for throwing the pitches AJ calls for? ***...

The whole "gutless" thing is a ****ing joke.


Its getting harder and harder to defend my boy javy. Im getting pretty close to jumping off the bandwagon. The fact is when Vazquez gets into trouble because of something going against him he cant deal with it. If you have not seen him fall apart numerous times when he gets in a jam because of either a) getting squeezed by the ump b) bad defense behind him or c) good pitches that find holes you have not been watching many games. Im not saying he only gets in trouble when hes unlucky, but when he does get in these jams for those reasons he doesnt suck it up and pick somebody up. The offense picks him up all the time, its about time he picked somebody else up. Like I said to start the post, I am a big time Javy suporter but this guy needs to avoid these big innings.

As for all those who still want Anderson's head you people just dont get it. Yes you are right Anderson doesnt get every freaking ball hit near him, WOW anderson didnt get a perfect jump on that jeter double(because thats what was necessary to catch that ball THE PERFECT JUMP). Im starting to think that there really isnt any room for Mack, the things he can do we dont really need him for with ozuna and cintron and he just isnt adequate in centerfield ESPECIALLY IN A PARK LIKE ****ING COMERICA.....unreal how he gets the start in any of these big games.

But what continues to amaze me is how 171 posts came in last night and all of today about that huge win we had last night, and when something goes wrong the count more than doubles. We take 2/3 tomorrow this is a great thing for us and WHEN we win tomorrow all of the clouds will not be here and it continues to baffle me that some people only enjoy posting when things go wrong...Thats why you are called a dark cloud we only see you when its raining.

We take the series tomorrow, its a success in my mind and we still are in the tiggers head with a 7-2 advantage against them.


But yes if Javy's big inning shenanigans dont end soon maybe its time for a switch but I am still hanging on to the bandwagon with one hand....

rant over see some of you tomorrow............


edit: and by bandwagon I mean Javy's only not the sox

The Dude
07-19-2006, 11:45 PM
No. Javy sucked. Fixed it for ya.

No the team sucked...two solo shots rarely win games!:rolleyes:

The Dude
07-19-2006, 11:46 PM
Hey everybody, put on your depends because most of you just **** yourselves!

rookie
07-19-2006, 11:47 PM
Wow, a lot of stuff going on in this post-game thread. I was suprised that there was already 22 pages on this post-game thread.

Especially the stuff about AJ being at fault for calling the pitches.

Maybe the fact that we lost on a grand slam is what is doing a lot of people in.

We were outpitched tonight. Vasquez had us believing that he could duel in a pitchers' duel for several innings, but unfortunately reality set in. (The CSN reporter with the last name that starts with a G, said that Javy took the loss pretty hard. That he felt like he let the team down).

Jon looked good, and Jose seemed much better againist the Yankees. If Mark and Freddy can get it together again, that's all I want for the rest of this month. I want our starting rotation to find their grove - to their ALCS selves. Vasquez is a coin toss.

hi im skot
07-19-2006, 11:47 PM
This thread is ridiculous...I haven't seen anything quite like this since Cleveland set the world on fire and we had a slump last year.

Tomorrow's a new day, gang.

patbooyah
07-19-2006, 11:48 PM
No the team sucked...two solo shots rarely win games!:rolleyes:
if the team sucked, javy REALLY sucked.

also- thanks to the mods for changing my title. god forbid anyone make a joke about this team's worst pitcher.

for anyone wondering, my original title was "*Official* Rough Night for the Vazquez Hating Dark Clouds Postgame Thread. Oh, wait..."

hi im skot
07-19-2006, 11:48 PM
Wow, a lot of stuff going on in this post-game thread. I was suprised that there was already 22 pages on this post-game thread.

Especially the stuff about AJ being at fault for calling the pitches.

Maybe the fact that we lost on a grand slam is what is doing a lot of people in.

We were outpitched tonight. Vasquez had us believing that he could duel in a pitchers' duel for several innings, but unfortunately reality set in. (The CSN reporter with the last name that starts with a G, said that Javy took the loss pretty hard. That he felt like he let the team down).

Jon looked good, and Jose seemed much better againist the Yankees. If Mark and Freddy can get it together again, that's all I want for the rest of this month. I want our starting rotation to find their grove - to their ALCS selves. Vasquez is a coin toss.

Well, I can't disagree with him...

Let's pick him up tomorrow, guys!

Go Sox!

getonbckthr
07-19-2006, 11:53 PM
Maybe the fact that we lost on a grand slam is what is doing a lot of people in.

\
My problem is the fact that its the end of July and Ozzie continues to run lineups out there that aren't our best lineups. When is he gonna realize that Mackowiak is not a centerfielder. Now for Thursday's game we probably won't see our best lineup either because of the daygame following nitegame situation with AJ/Widger.

thomas35forever
07-20-2006, 12:07 AM
This one hurt badly. One swing and we lose. The Tigers did what we've been doing a lot the past couple of seasons, and that's coming through in the clutch. Other than that, Vazquez pitched a good game. It was that one swing that ruined our evening. Be sure to add Craig Monroe to your most hated players list.

doobee_yoobee
07-20-2006, 12:10 AM
It was that one swing that ruined our evening. Be sure to add Craig Monroe to your most hated players list.

Oh yea, Monroe is such a great player. The guy will be langishing in obscurty (or worse) in 4 years. The guy, like most of the Tiger lineup stinks.

They have what the Sox had last year, great pitching and good defense.

oeo
07-20-2006, 12:16 AM
Oh yea, Monroe is such a great player. The guy will be langishing in obscurty (or worse) in 4 years. The guy, like most of the Tiger lineup stinks.

They have what the Sox had last year, great pitching and good defense.
No one ever said he was good, he's a ****ing ********, though. And I still think Riske should have thrown first pitch behind his back when he came up in the 8th.

If we've got a late-inning lead tomorrow, I hope someone puts one right into his back.

CaptainBallz
07-20-2006, 12:18 AM
And another thing...does Coops justification for not worring about the ERAs starting to sound like Schoop with his, "I'll stand by my record." stance after the 2001 season....Shudder the thought. It just came to me.

I don't buy Coop's line of reasoning there at all, actually. W's that tag along with high ERA's come in spite of the pitching, not because of them. I heard him saying that today and it just seemed like slight of hand to me.

The offense can't be expected to put up 5+ EVERY night. There's no way. Doesn't happen. Won't happen. Was anybody really shocked when that sixth started to develop for Detroit? I mean really. That's what Vazquez has been doing. Losing his cool and letting his game get away from him. He's Jekyll and Hyde. And yes I know about Rob in CF. But we KNOW he shouldn't be out there. Javier needs to pick the team up in that situation, not throw a meatball. That's much more than just 1 pitch.


EDIT: p.s. From Todd Jones "I just shook my head because this is Detroit, and these fans deserve this after what they've been through"----- Deserve what!!??!! What exactly have you delivered?!?! I think that they're starting to get that "this is magic" attitude that is so fun to watch crumble.

kitekrazy
07-20-2006, 01:33 AM
Ugh...it's people like you that want me to log out of this website and never come back.

Watch EVERY game and then I will take your input seriously, because they haven't been terrible all year. And Javy throws ONE huge mistake and the whole pitching staff sucks? *****...

Oh but we are the worst team in baseball with over 20+ games over .500

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 01:34 AM
Vazquez blows?

I just got home and felt it was important to make a note of my season-long conclusion, once again.

Thanks, guys. I feel lots better.

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 01:38 AM
You're right, he should have given up 0 or 1 runs. I mean, this is major league baseball, nobody scores more than two runs. If you can't make two runs hold up, you suck.


:rolleyes:

Give me a break. Yeah, we know Mack's terrible out there in center. Ridiculous that Ozzie keeps running him out there. That's a given. But this guy -- J. Vazquez, pitcher -- CANNOT execute pitches when it matters. CANNOT. CAN NOT. Curveball -- hang it. Slider -- hang it. Changeup -- hang it.

He was crap in Arizona. He's crap here. Crap. Caaarrrraaaaapppp. He's crap.

Garbage.

And crap.

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 01:42 AM
It keeps getting later in the season and the pitching still looks like crap. Javy crapped himself when the going got tough once again. This staff looks like ****.

Sorry that the hitters can't bale them out everynight, but that's playoff ball. A championship team wins todays game.

Why is Javy throwing that guy a breaking ball?

You know why? Cuz he's awful, that's why. He's terrible.

Ask the Yankees how great he was in their bullpen in the playoffs, too? You know how great he was? He was awful. You know why? Cuz he was awful.

This is who he is. Don't expect more. Forget his "stuff" and everything else. He's been pitching like this for THREE YEARS.

Let's move on. Because he's awful.

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 01:44 AM
I don't buy Coop's line of reasoning there at all, actually. W's that tag along with high ERA's come in spite of the pitching, not because of them. I heard him saying that today and it just seemed like slight of hand to me.

The offense can't be expected to put up 5+ EVERY night. There's no way. Doesn't happen. Won't happen. Was anybody really shocked when that sixth started to develop for Detroit? I mean really. That's what Vazquez has been doing. Losing his cool and letting his game get away from him. He's Jekyll and Hyde. And yes I know about Rob in CF. But we KNOW he shouldn't be out there. Javier needs to pick the team up in that situation, not throw a meatball. That's much more than just 1 pitch.


EDIT: p.s. From Todd Jones "I just shook my head because this is Detroit, and these fans deserve this after what they've been through"----- Deserve what!!??!! What exactly have you delivered?!?! I think that they're starting to get that "this is magic" attitude that is so fun to watch crumble.

Coop's full of garbage on "Javy." Javy's awful. But that's who he is, certainly in the American League. Move along. Nothing more to see here. I actually think that Javier Vazquez is Spanish for Danny Wright.

Conclusion = Awful.

oeo
07-20-2006, 01:47 AM
Give me a break. Yeah, we know Mack's terrible out there in center. Ridiculous that Ozzie keeps running him out there. That's a given. But this guy -- J. Vazquez, pitcher -- CANNOT execute pitches when it matters. CANNOT. CAN NOT. Curveball -- hang it. Slider -- hang it. Changeup -- hang it.

He was crap in Arizona. He's crap here. Crap. Caaarrrraaaaapppp. He's crap.

Garbage.

And crap.
Great insight, glad you cleared that up.

Javy usually has his meltdowns after bad defensive plays. There's no excuse for Mackowiak not making that play, err wait...he's not a centerfielder so he shouldn't even be out there.

If Mackowiak makes that catch, there's an inning-ending double play ball right afterwards, and Javy slips out of the inning with a 2-1 lead. Defense is an integral part to this pitching staff's success.

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2006, 01:50 AM
Vazquez blows?

I just got home and felt it was important to make a note of my season-long conclusion, once again.

Thanks, guys. I feel lots better.


Hey :dumbass: Awesome ****ing analysis, thanks for the insight.

I never want to attack a poster but get the **** out of here....

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 02:01 AM
Great insight, glad you cleared that up.

Javy usually has his meltdowns after bad defensive plays. There's no excuse for Mackowiak not making that play, err wait...he's not a centerfielder so he shouldn't even be out there.

If Mackowiak makes that catch, there's an inning-ending double play ball right afterwards, and Javy slips out of the inning with a 2-1 lead. Defense is an integral part to this pitching staff's success.

Mack's brutal. I got that. I got it about 2 months ago. And Ozzie should not be running him out there. It's totally stupid.

But please do not make excuses for guys who are not earning their salaries. What is Vazquez's ERA? Is Mackowiak out there every time?

Look, this is the SAME EXACT PROBLEM he had in New York: he is not executing key pitches. This is also why he was completely useless to the Yankees in the bullpen when they put him there in the 2004 playoffs.

This is not a blip for Javy. He had an ERA of about 4.5 in the National League last year. Was Mack his CF?

And by the way, chum, that "double play" ball looked to be hit pretty slowly. Could we have turned two?

Here we are speculating again. And why? Because Ozzie shoudn't have Mack in center. And because our $9 million starting pitcher hangs yet . . . another . . . breaking ball.

Hope Arizona likes Chris Young.

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 02:02 AM
Hey :dumbass: Awesome ****ing analysis, thanks for the insight.

I never want to attack a poster but get the **** out of here....

Looks like you just attacked the poster.

But I appreciate your personal interest. Thanks for YOUR insight.

oeo
07-20-2006, 03:02 AM
Hope Arizona likes Chris Young.
Uhm, Chris Young who has never played a big league game in his life? That Chris Young? Come talk to me in two years, when we see Javy pitch the rest of this season (maybe onto another championship) and if Chris Young is all he was hyped up to be.

Judging that trade is VERY premature. Javy hasn't even finished 2006 and Young is still, well, a prospect. Remember how many thought we were ripped off in the Garcia trade? Well, Olivo is no longer a Mariner, and Reed has basically been a dud.

CYGarland20
07-20-2006, 03:30 AM
Is it being a dark cloud to look at the stats and see that Vazquez has a 6.98 ERA now since June began? Or that he's given up 69 hits in 49 innings over that time period? Sure, maybe he only made a few bad pitches tonight, but it's not like it's abnormal for him to give up this many runs in a start. Worrying about him right now is not just something that comes from him giving up that grand slam tonight, it comes from him basically being terrible for 2 months now. And maybe in all of those starts he only threw a few bad pitches, but the fact is he has been giving up tons of hits and tons of runs in just about every game for quite a while.

I feel like Vazquez kind of pitches the way you'd expect a really young pitcher who has good stuff but isn't quite ready for the big leagues to pitch. Ok, so some of those guys have big problems with walking lots of people, and that isn't his problem, but he's similar in that he'll cruise along easily and make hitters look bad with his great stuff for 3 or 4 innings, but then all of the sudden something happens and he collapses mentally and gets mashed. It always seems real sudden and quick that he's pitching fine, then he pitches horrible for about 10 minutes, and then he's ok again for a bit. And what that adds up to in the end is a very high ERA, which in turn leads to lost games. The reason why Vazquez blows up so quick is because he cant pitch out of the stretch for @#$@. When he goes into the stretch, he seems to start making alot of mistakes down the middle of the plate either via the Fastball or hanging breaking ball. Now i dont know if Coop has noticed this, but this is a big reason why he can blow up in instance, especially if he lets the 1st 2 runners in the inning on. Now hopefully Coop can help him find away to locate better out of the stretch, because from the windup, he is nearly unhittable.......That being said, I hope we can take the game tomorrow or the @#$# is really going to hit the fan around here.

Grzegorz
07-20-2006, 05:11 AM
Well, Olivo is no longer a Mariner, and Reed has basically been a dud.

I'd like to have Olivo back and Reed would look good as a backup OF right now. I know hindsight is 20-20.

I am as big an Anderson supporter as there is on this board but if Anderson sat because he didn't backup Pods the night before then I applaud Ozzie. Every game has meaning and every player has to focus for as long as the game lasts. Discipline and focus is required to get through a season.

The problem is to have a backup take BA's spot so that CF isn't sufficiently weakened by Anderson being out of the lineup. I've not heard of one name in the minors being capable of playing CF.

I was disappointed with last night's game but Jose can set this right today starting at 12:05 CDT.

Thome25
07-20-2006, 05:43 AM
It's good to know that we're going to lose every 5th day. Unless we score 7-10 runs when Vazquez pitches.

MikeKreevich
07-20-2006, 07:33 AM
I blame Ozzy not Javy. Ozzy should have lifted him for a reliever in that 6th inning.

stl_sox_fan
07-20-2006, 07:59 AM
It's good to know that we're going to lose every 5th day. Unless we score 7-10 runs when Vazquez pitches.

It's 2004 all over again. Maybe Ozz should try the "everybody gets a start" method again. Anyone for Neal Cotts as a starter again?

ShoelessJoeS
07-20-2006, 08:15 AM
This thread was a gas to read. People really need to settle down and stop posting crap after a tough loss.....

The Sox will be ok.

jenn2080
07-20-2006, 08:18 AM
This thread was a gas to read. People really need to settle down and stop posting crap after a tough loss.....

The Sox will be ok.


i dont think anyone was jumping off the sears tower last night thinking the rest of the series is over, but that Javy pitched like ****. Very few posts said anything about this being the end of life as we know it.

SouthSoxFan
07-20-2006, 08:22 AM
I blame Ozzy not Javy. Ozzy should have lifted him for a reliever in that 6th inning.
Right after the 0-2 pitch to Pudge Rodriguez that he smoked into left field. You know, when ESPN was reminding us that the league hits about .360 against Javy the 3rd time through the order. Don't the Sox see this pattern? I know they'd like to have him "figure it out", but in a game this important, why not have McCarthy ready for 2 inning duty?

ShoelessJoeS
07-20-2006, 08:24 AM
i dont think anyone was jumping off the sears tower last night thinking the rest of the series is over, but that Javy pitched like ****. Very few posts said anything about this being the end of life as we know it.Maybe you should go back and re-read it then, it's quite funny.

stl_sox_fan
07-20-2006, 08:29 AM
Right after the 0-2 pitch to Pudge Rodriguez that he smoked into left field. You know, when ESPN was reminding us that the league hits about .360 against Javy the 3rd time through the order. Don't the Sox see this pattern? I know they'd like to have him "figure it out", but in a game this important, why not have McCarthy ready for 2 inning duty?

Brantley was making that very apparent during Baseball Tonight. Allthough I was distracted waiting to see his head pop off because his collar was so tight. But was interesting is that they wanted to pin the whole thing on Juan going home with the throw instead of trying to turn two.

And I know this has been said several times already, enough with Mack in CF. Whether or not BA would have caught that bloop single or not, this series is too important to have the utility players in. Curious to know if Detroit started any bench players or if they brought their regular lineup. If I see Widger in the lineup today, I'm gonna freak!!

MushMouth
07-20-2006, 09:22 AM
Why Vazquez even bothers with that stupid curveball, I'll never know.


I honestly think Coop should just stop him from throwing it all together. Every hit off him seems to be a breaking ball up. Every one!

credefan24
07-20-2006, 09:27 AM
When Javy had those 2-3 good starts at the begining of the season, was he throwing his fastball more? Someone was talking on the radio how it didn't make sense for a guy who can throw 94-95, to keep coming in with breaking balls.

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 09:43 AM
When Javy had those 2-3 good starts at the begining of the season, was he throwing his fastball more? Someone was talking on the radio how it didn't make sense for a guy who can throw 94-95, to keep coming in with breaking balls.

He was facing the Royals.

jenn2080
07-20-2006, 09:55 AM
When Javy had those 2-3 good starts at the begining of the season, was he throwing his fastball more? Someone was talking on the radio how it didn't make sense for a guy who can throw 94-95, to keep coming in with breaking balls.


Those games dont count since it was KC.

Huisj
07-20-2006, 10:00 AM
Coop's full of garbage on "Javy." Javy's awful. But that's who he is, certainly in the American League. Move along. Nothing more to see here. I actually think that Javier Vazquez is Spanish for Danny Wright.

Conclusion = Awful.

Well sort of, except Wright always gave up his runs right away in the first inning. Didn't Manuel even have some kind of goofy plan where they'd have him throw a simulated first inning before the game started and then have him sit for a little while to make it feel like the first inning was already over when he started the game?

russ99
07-20-2006, 10:08 AM
Javier Vazquez is so bad. I have no idea why we traded so much for him!

What are you guys talking about? He pitched a great game in a playoff atmosphere up until the collapse. And yes, the defense didn't help him as they could have. No need to jettison him yet.

That pitch to Monroe is kind of understandable, it was a 2-2 count and Monroe knew that next pitch was going to be over the plate, since Vazquez couldn't risk a 3-2 count with the bases loaded.

So Javy hung one and got crushed. I would have gone with an inside fastball, but Monroe could have crushed that one too, the way he was dialed in.

Javy needs to learn to go after hitters after getting 2 strikes. This playing around with different pitches on the corners is what's messing him up.

credefan24
07-20-2006, 10:12 AM
Those games dont count since it was KC.

Darn!
Ah well.

bigsqwert
07-20-2006, 10:14 AM
What are you guys talking about? He pitched a great game in a playoff atmosphere up until the collapse. Too bad the same collapse happens more often then not with him on the mound.

bigsqwert
07-20-2006, 10:15 AM
Javy needs to learn to go after hitters after getting 2 strikes. Learn? He's not a rookie. He's been around for many years. I don't see him every becoming anything better than a below average pitcher.

Bill Naharodny
07-20-2006, 10:36 AM
Well sort of, except Wright always gave up his runs right away in the first inning. Didn't Manuel even have some kind of goofy plan where they'd have him throw a simulated first inning before the game started and then have him sit for a little while to make it feel like the first inning was already over when he started the game?

Yep. I remember that. And you know what? He never allowed a run in the fake first inning. He was unhittable.

Then the game would start, and he'd get pounded.

bobj4400
07-20-2006, 10:53 AM
he also goes 0/4 or 1/4 with a few embarrassing ABs..i cant believe how many people think anderson is a CF on a potential playoff team

when was the last time that happened? a month or two ago? Anderson should be the CF every day. Ozzie has cost us at least 4 games this year by playing Mack in CF and Ozuna in LF. Outfield defense has been a killer this year. mack should play rf, lf, 3b, and 2b only.
if you have to give anderson a day off, put pods in cf and pray. at
least he has some speed and a decent amount of experience at the
position when he was in milwaukee.

Also, hawk made a pretty good point on the broadcast last night about bonderman. he said that because his slider is so devastating (similar to rivera's cutter), that he is more difficult on lefties (witness thome and a.j.'s nights and uribe and crede's) and that it doesn't make sense to play the righty lefty matchup as much as it would against other guys. he said it in the 2nd inning so you have to give him some credit. in essence, there's really no way anderson shouldn't have been in center especially when you're expecting a low scoring game anyway. defense should have been a premium.

Jjav829
07-20-2006, 10:59 AM
Too bad the same collapse happens more often then not with him on the mound.
Javier Vazquez should not plan to be living in ___________ next year. The man invariably has one inning, early or late, when he makes certain that the team he is facing bats like all-stars, while placing his team in a hole from which they cannot dig out.

Let's play a game. Can anyone guess when that quote is from? Not necessarily the specific source, but what time period that quote is from. Make a guess...









Give up? It's from 2004 when Vazquez was a Yankee. The _________ was New York before I deleted it, but you could fill in Chicago in that spot and it could be 100% accurate for this year.

patbooyah
07-20-2006, 11:02 AM
javier vazquez is the latino cliff politte

bobj4400
07-20-2006, 11:07 AM
Let's play a game. Can anyone guess when that quote from? Not necessarily the specific source, but what time period that quote is from. Make a guess...









Give up? It's from 2004 when Vazquez was a Yankee. The _________ was New York before I deleted it, but you could fill in Chicago in that spot and it could be 100% accurate for this year.


I wonder if that one inning is due to the fact Vazquez grew up in the NL where he was used to getting a free pass every 3rd inning or so when the bottom of the order came up. He never developed the mental toughness needed to pitch to AL lineups.

CaptainBallz
07-20-2006, 11:09 AM
Let's play a game. Can anyone guess where that quote from? Not necessarily the specific source, but what time period that quote is from. Make a guess...









Give up? It's from 2004 when Vazquez was a Yankee. The _________ was New York before I deleted it, but you could fill in Chicago in that spot and it could be 100% accurate for this year.


:thumbsup:

That's what I don't understand about all the hullabaloo in this thread. Not only was all of this known about Vazquez beforehand, but he has been demonstrating it almost EVERY game for the last couple months.

It's just who he is. Chances of him changing are....remote...:(:

BeviBall!
07-20-2006, 11:16 AM
if the team sucked, javy REALLY sucked.

also- thanks to the mods for changing my title. god forbid anyone make a joke about this team's worst pitcher.

for anyone wondering, my original title was "*Official* Rough Night for the Vazquez Hating Dark Clouds Postgame Thread. Oh, wait..."


Second night in a row the mysterious "Thread Title Editor", or TTE, strikes. I wonder if we'll make it a hat trick today?

BeviBall!
07-20-2006, 11:17 AM
:thumbsup:

That's what I don't understand about all the hullabaloo in this thread. Not only was all of this known about Vazquez beforehand, but he has been demonstrating it almost EVERY game for the last couple months.

It's just who he is. Chances of him changing are....remote...:(:

KW and Ozzie have faith that Cooper can turn him around. And so do I. First step is not playing Mack in CF when Javier starts... ever.

bigsqwert
07-20-2006, 11:21 AM
KW and Ozzie have faith that Cooper can turn him around. And so do I. Not this again. Coop is not a magician.

CaptainBallz
07-20-2006, 11:27 AM
KW and Ozzie have faith that Cooper can turn him around. And so do I. First step is not playing Mack in CF when Javier starts... ever.

Maybe they can give all the fielders XXXXL gloves and have a Wah-mbulance on call if something doesn't go Javier's way.

:vazquez:

:whiner: I hate you and your stupid bloop single...here, have a meatball...:whiner:

I kid, I kid....I really hope Coop can do something real quick or it's a trip down Politte Blvd....

Paulwny
07-20-2006, 11:47 AM
Not this again. Coop is not a magician.


I hope Coop has a degree in psychology. The 3rd time through the line-up and eventual big inning is turning Vazquez into a head case. Any fielding problems or a few consecutive hits may have him thinking, "here we go again", not a good frame of mind for a pitcher.

The Dude
07-20-2006, 11:48 AM
javier vazquez is the latino cliff politte

Not a chance.

patbooyah
07-20-2006, 11:54 AM
:pollite::vazquez:


same lost look in their eyes.

same terrible home runs.

same big innings.

both destined to be gone by the end of the season.

very big chance, i think.

i blame canada.

EDIT: i mean the 2006 cliff politte

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-20-2006, 11:56 AM
How many times has Anderson cost us games offensively??

southside rocks
07-20-2006, 11:57 AM
How many times has Anderson cost us games offensively??

Ozzie says none.

Chips
07-20-2006, 11:58 AM
How many times has Anderson cost us games offensively??

Where is this coming from?

Chips
07-20-2006, 12:03 PM
same lost look in their eyes.

same terrible home runs.

same big innings.

both destined to be gone by the end of the season.

very big chance, i think.

i blame canada.

Vazquez: 9-5, 5.20 ERA, 114.1 IP, 11 HR, 125 HITS, 91 K, 29 BB
Politte: 2-2, 8.04 ERA, 28 IP, 8 HR, 43 HITS, 15 K, 14 BB.

I see the similarities:rolleyes:

patbooyah
07-20-2006, 12:06 PM
Vazquez: 9-5, 5.20 ERA, 114.1 IP, 11 HR, 125 HITS, 91 K, 29 BB
Politte: 2-2, 8.04 ERA, 28 IP, 8 HR, 43 HITS, 15 K, 14 BB.

I see the similarities:rolleyes:

it's a joke. relax. take your pollyanna patrol someplace else.

also, take me out of your sig. that was also a joke, too.

RockyMtnSoxFan
07-20-2006, 12:07 PM
I've said it before, but who would like to see Chris Young as a backup for Anderson? I think that BA should be the starting CF now, especially since he's been getting hot, but at least Young could be a better backup than Mack. And wasn't Bajenaru the other part of that deal? Or was he in the Cintron trade? I can't remember, but either way I'd rather Vazquez was still a Diamondback and McCarthy was our fifth starter. He might not be much better, but at least we know that he's got a lot of potential as a starter in the majors.

sullythered
07-20-2006, 12:17 PM
also a joke, too.
"The Department of Redundancy Department.":tongue:

patbooyah
07-20-2006, 12:20 PM
"The Department of Redundancy Department.":tongue:

sometimes my passion gets the best of me. :D:

Frankly Missing
07-20-2006, 12:21 PM
KW and Ozzie have faith that Cooper can turn him around. And so do I. First step is not playing Mack in CF when Javier starts... ever. In 2004, Vazquez threw a gem against the White Sox in NY. He shut us down big time.

KW was bent on getting him to Chicago and Coop after that.

But I'm willing to bet KW now thinks that experiment was prettier on paper than on the field.

After 9 years in the bigs and half a season with Coop, Vazquez is what he is. I dont see a "steady at the helm" type of turn around in his future.

Fake Chet Lemon
07-20-2006, 01:07 PM
Isn't he terrible when the Sox are going bad? I don't mind him when we're playing well because I think his passion for the team shines through. But when we're struggling, he's just a pouty mountain of excuses.

Agree 100%. When things are going bad he talks to us like we are stupid and he thinks we believe his spin. But when we are winning he rocks!!!!

CommanderPudge72
07-20-2006, 02:10 PM
I don't buy Coop's line of reasoning there at all, actually. W's that tag along with high ERA's come in spite of the pitching, not because of them. I heard him saying that today and it just seemed like slight of hand to me.

The offense can't be expected to put up 5+ EVERY night. There's no way. Doesn't happen. Won't happen.

Thank you....I agree totally. You HAVE to win 1-2 run games...Pitching and Defense...they are important....

What kind of is surprising to me is that anyone who is analyzing the performance is seen as "a dark cloud" or a "ledge sitter".

Bottom line:

1. The ERAs are up, big time...the pitching has not consistantly been there this year.

2. Javy, who has gotten the best run support this year, can not avoid the big inning...its mental, and it cost us against our divisional leader last night.

3. You are going to have to win close games...the offense may not produce 6,7,8 runs in a playoff atmosphere. You need both sides of the ball to win.

4. We have Widger, Ozuna and Mack being substituted when we are playing against games we really want ( if I say need, I am overstating and will be accused of being on a ledge) to win. Check Andersen's catch today (7/20) in deep center....Think Mack would have gotten that? Ozuna is struggling since the injury and Widge, well I'll take AJ in a big series.

These are some of the things we need to think about going into August...if we are not thinking about them, then we are dreaming or just "hoping it all works out."


This coming from a Sox fan for decades, who wants his team to run out the string as champions while we have the chance with just a lil fine tuning...

That is not a dark cloud.

SoxEd
07-20-2006, 02:38 PM
Wow - twenty seven pages of this?
:o:

After last year, I'd forgotten how the 'doom and gloom' threads tend to grow huge.

Having read bits (but not all) of it, and having seen the article on whitesox.com (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060719&content_id=1565019&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) that details how Javy's ERA is solid the first two times through the opposing lineup, but goes in to free-fall the third time through it, I'd be tempted to change the way we use him.

The figures quoted in the article would suggest to me that he has some kind of mental (or physical?) breakdown the third time through the opposition batting order - so I propose that we don't use him for more than five innings each time out, at least for a short while, just in order to let him get some confidence back.

I mean, he's only our Fifth starter, surely we can cope with trotting #55 (or Thornton) out for two or three innings every fifth game?

I'd hope that doing this for a few of his starts might give him time to sort out whatever issue is causing him to give up the big inning on the third look.

As I already admitted, I haven't read the whole of this thread, so my apologies to all y'all if this idea has already been both mooted and shot down in flames as numptyish nonsense.

Palehose13
07-20-2006, 02:42 PM
Thank you....I agree totally. You HAVE to win 1-2 run games...Pitching and Defense...they are important....

What kind of is surprising to me is that anyone who is analyzing the performance is seen as "a dark cloud" or a "ledge sitter"...


That is not a dark cloud.

What I find amusing is how many people are afraid of being called "dark clouds".

GoSox2K3
07-20-2006, 02:53 PM
How many times has Anderson cost us games offensively??

Did you stop following the White Sox on June 10 or something?

CommanderPudge72
07-20-2006, 06:55 PM
What I find amusing is how many people are afraid of being called "dark clouds".

Sorry guy. not afraid....actually I find the posts like that as useful as the dark cloud ones. Neither adds to any substantive discussion of the subject...its just the yin to the yang IMO.

For every "its the end of the world" post, there is someone posting "We are fine and anyone with a different opinion is a downer", neither has any justification or reason other than "we suck" or "its only July".

So both are equally useless....

:walkoff:
Put me in coach

CommanderPudge72
07-20-2006, 06:58 PM
Thank you....I agree totally. You HAVE to win 1-2 run games...Pitching and Defense...they are important....

What kind of is surprising to me is that anyone who is analyzing the performance is seen as "a dark cloud" or a "ledge sitter".

Bottom line:

1. The ERAs are up, big time...the pitching has not consistantly been there this year.

2. Javy, who has gotten the best run support this year, can not avoid the big inning...its mental, and it cost us against our divisional leader last night.

3. You are going to have to win close games...the offense may not produce 6,7,8 runs in a playoff atmosphere. You need both sides of the ball to win.

4. We have Widger, Ozuna and Mack being substituted when we are playing against games we really want ( if I say need, I am overstating and will be accused of being on a ledge) to win. Check Andersen's catch today (7/20) in deep center....Think Mack would have gotten that? Ozuna is struggling since the injury and Widge, well I'll take AJ in a big series.

These are some of the things we need to think about going into August...if we are not thinking about them, then we are dreaming or just "hoping it all works out."


This coming from a Sox fan for decades, who wants his team to run out the string as champions while we have the chance with just a lil fine tuning...

That is not a dark cloud.

Ohhh, and Palehose, just for truth sake, here is the rest of the post you edited around...can you take issue with any of the 4 points...if so, I'd love to hear the reasoning....

Might actually be worth a post, you know, to say something substantive.

digdagdug23
07-20-2006, 07:50 PM
What I find amusing is how many people are afraid of being called "dark clouds".

You know what PH, I thought it a little telling. If you have not done anything worth noting, then what's all the hub-bub, bub?

:D: