PDA

View Full Version : 9-4 vs. 9-4


BeviBall!
07-19-2006, 02:59 PM
These are the records by tonight's starters: Bonderman and Vazquez.

Anyone wonder what Javy's ERA might be if he pitched in Detroit's cavernous stadium and Bonderman in U.S. Crankular?

My point is, barring any meltdowns, this could be a pretty good pitching matchup considering we're in a pitcher-friendly park. Javy was at his best against the Central early in the season, and we always seem to push a few across against Bonderman. Anyway, here's hoping 33 can pull a 20.

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 03:03 PM
These are the records by tonight's starters: Bonderman and Vazquez.

Anyone wonder what Javy's ERA might be if he pitched in Detroit's cavernous stadium and Bonderman in U.S. Crankular?

My point is, barring any meltdowns, this could be a pretty good pitching matchup considering we're in a pitcher-friendly park. Javy was at his best against the Central early in the season, and we always seem to push a few across against Bonderman. Anyway, here's hoping 33 can pull a 20.Vazquez is going to start clicking one day soon and when he does he's going to rip off 7 or 8 in a row. He's just too good of a pitcher to continue to struggle the way he has. He's been getting squeezed by the umpires more than any pitcher I've ever seen, and it's been getting into his head. He's got to just go out and make his pitches.

Blueprint1
07-19-2006, 03:08 PM
The thing about Javy is we all know he has the talent to be a #1 in this league. He just needs to put it together for a whole season. I don't think the scouts of every team love this guy for no reason.

KMKsuburbannoise
07-19-2006, 03:12 PM
The thing about Javy is we all know he has the talent to be a #1 in this league. He just needs to put it together for a whole season. I don't think the scouts of every team love this guy for no reason.

I agree...sometimes he looks really really good. And then the next game he goes and gives up tons of key hits.

oeo
07-19-2006, 03:12 PM
Vazquez is going to start clicking one day soon and when he does he's going to rip off 7 or 8 in a row. He's just too good of a pitcher to continue to struggle the way he has. He's been getting squeezed by the umpires more than any pitcher I've ever seen, and it's been getting into his head. He's got to just go out and make his pitches.
Thank you...finally someone agrees that Javy will turn this around. And what better night to do it, than tonight?

That's his problem, everything gets into his head. If he would just let it go and collect himself, he could get out of those jams. Every inning he has a meltdown, he comes right back the next inning and dominates...so you know he just needed to collect himself. He just needs to do it more quickly :cool:.

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 03:15 PM
Thank you...finally someone agrees that Javy will turn this around. And what better night to do it, than tonight?Tonight would be just dandy.

Am I the only one noticing that Vazquez has really been getting squeezed by the umpires? He can't get a pitch on the corners for anything. What gives?

oeo
07-19-2006, 03:16 PM
Tonight would be just dandy.

Am I the only one noticing that Vazquez has really been getting squeezed by the umpires? He can't get a pitch on the corners for anything. What gives?

All of our pitchers have been squeezed lately. Especially in the Boston and New York series. Last night was the first night in a long time that one of our pitchers was getting that outside call.

my5thbench
07-19-2006, 03:17 PM
geeze thanks fella's, I was a nervous wreck about this matchup...I appreciate someone sneaking a little optimism into my pregame preparations

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 03:19 PM
All of our pitchers have been squeezed lately. Especially in the Boston and New York series. Last night was the first night in a long time that one of our pitchers was getting that outside call.It was especially noticable in Boston and NY, to the point where I began to wonder if ESPN was providing the umpires.:cool:

But it seems to go farther back with Vazquez. This has been going on all season. Does he have some kind of history with umpires that they have a grudge against him?

White Sox Randy
07-19-2006, 03:22 PM
Tonight would be just dandy.

Am I the only one noticing that Vazquez has really been getting squeezed by the umpires? He can't get a pitch on the corners for anything. What gives?


I've been saying that too. But, I just think that he is not a smart pitcher. And, I am tempted to say that if he hasn't gotten it by now, then he isn't going to get it.

Then, I catch myself and remember that is what I said about Contreras before he turned things around. You never know but I don't think that the Sox are going to give up on him.

kwolf68
07-19-2006, 03:27 PM
It is so funny reading these posts about Javier's "head problems" and he should just "shake it off" like a feather on his shoulder.

I don't think for a second these issues are easily resolved. In fact, these problems are better gurantees than marginal talent at having players not reach their full potential. For Javier, it isn't about his talent. Most agree he has it. But I get far more frustrated with a guy with his type of arm who contiously pitches worse than someone with half his talent.

I just don't think these guys ever reach their full potential. Javier Vazquez should be nowhere near 5.00 in ERA, but there he is...Not because he can't pitch a baseball, but because he isn't a smart or mentally tough pitcher.

I hope he has an epiphany and turns it around starting tonight, but I have serious doubts that he will get it together anytime soon. You don't go from a head-case who can't pitch around errors, umps, his own failures to someone who is an ice cold star pitcher.

He doesn't appear to be terribly instinctive as a pitcher either. While his arm is great, he makes some of the worst pitches on "pitchers counts" that I've ever seen.

Obtaining this guy also has saddled one of our bright young pitching prospects in the bullpen. McCarthy IS A GUY I believe has the necessary intangibles to maximize his talent.

BeviBall!
07-19-2006, 03:28 PM
Vazquez, moreso than any other pitcher on our staff, has to get ahead in the count early. His strikeout pitches don't overpower you, nor do they catch any part of the plate to be a called strike, they trick you. It's a lot easier to chase his change or slider when you're trying to swing at anything close. Javy has been pitching 2-1, 3-1 since May.

I keep hoping Cooper will find a fault in his delivery like he has with Jose from time to time, but that news doesn't seem to be coming.

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 03:29 PM
I've been saying that too. But, I just think that he is not a smart pitcher. And, I am tempted to say that if he hasn't gotten it by now, then he isn't going to get it.

Then, I catch myself and remember that is what I said about Contreras before he turned things around. You never know but I don't think that the Sox are going to give up on him.Pitching isn't rocket surgery.:cool: If you have a catcher who calls a good game, all you need to know is how to count to four. But you need to be able to hit the corners, and you also need to have the umpires willing to call it for you. He seems to unravel when he doesn't get the call, and then either walks the guy or grooves one that gets nailed. Back in the day, Maddux used to live on the outside corner. If the umpire didn't call it, he just kept nailing the same spot until the umpire gave in and started calling it. He and Glavine made careers out of doing that. Maybe that's the approach they should take with Vazquez.

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 03:31 PM
It is so funny reading these posts about Javier's "head problems" and he should just "shake it off" like a feather on his shoulder.

I don't think for a second these issues are easily resolved. In fact, these problems are better gurantees than marginal talent at having players not reach their full potential. For Javier, it isn't about his talent. Most agree he has it. But I get far more frustrated with a guy with his type of arm who contiously pitches worse than someone with half his talent.

I just don't think these guys ever reach their full potential. Javier Vazquez should be nowhere near 5.00 in ERA, but there he is...Not because he can't pitch a baseball, but because he isn't a smart or mentally tough pitcher.

I hope he has an epiphany and turns it around starting tonight, but I have serious doubts that he will get it together anytime soon. You don't go from a head-case who can't pitch around errors, umps, his own failures to someone who is an ice cold star pitcher.

He doesn't appear to be terribly instinctive as a pitcher either. While his arm is great, he makes some of the worst pitches on "pitchers counts" that I've ever seen.

Obtaining this guy also has saddled one of our bright young pitching prospects in the bullpen. McCarthy IS A GUY I believe has the necessary intangibles to maximize his talent.:contreras: They used to say the exact same thing about me.

White Sox Randy
07-19-2006, 03:39 PM
Some good points, guys.

But, what about this. I watch Javy and I say "I can't believe he threw that pitch right there right now". Now, isn't AJ calling his pitches ? Is it AJ's fault ? Then, why is he not calling for these stupid pitches for the other starters ?

Or, is it that Javy misses his spot too often in a crucial situation ? Is he not bearing down when he needs to ? Is it a lack of focus or intestinal fortitude ?

I am a big McCarthy fan for this reason. He seems like the anti-Javy.

White Sox Randy
07-19-2006, 03:43 PM
:contreras: They used to say the exact same thing about me.


It's so true. At the beginning of last season I told my wife that I would not go to any game that he was pitching - even if I had the tickets.

Now, I've been saying that I hate watching when Vazquez pitches. Well, I hope that I'm wrong again and he turns it around.

DaleJRFan
07-19-2006, 03:48 PM
Some good points, guys.

But, what about this. I watch Javy and I say "I can't believe he threw that pitch right there right now". Now, isn't AJ calling his pitches ? Is it AJ's fault ? Then, why is he not calling for these stupid pitches for the other starters ?

Or, is it that Javy misses his spot too often in a crucial situation ? Is he not bearing down when he needs to ? Is it a lack of focus or intestinal fortitude ?

I am a big McCarthy fan for this reason. He seems like the anti-Javy.

It's not AJ's fault that Javy is seeminly ALWAYS in the position of being in 2-0 2-1, 3-1 counts. If you aren't getting the corners called your way, you have to put it over the plate. Major league hitters, specifically, AL hitters, will eat you alive if you are over the heart of the plate.

As for the game tonight and what Javy's gotta do out there, Garland got some really good calls lastnight on low strikes. If Javy can keep the ball down with his "stuff" he will be just fine. If the umpire isn't giving him those calls for strikes, Detroit will wait on fastballs just like everyone else has been doing.

MarySwiss
07-19-2006, 04:09 PM
Not too long ago, people were having problems with Jon's pitching. How do you like him now?

Javy had a couple of games earlier this year where he was flirting with no-nos. I was less than nuts about him with the D'Backs, but I'm hoping he's going to put it together. Tonight would be a good time to start.

INSox56
07-19-2006, 04:15 PM
Yeah people tend to forget the two no-hitters through 6 he had early in the season. Hopefully he can get it back. Someone mentioned his K pitches aren't going to blow you away....I beg to differ. I say that the K pitches he's throwing NOW aren't going to blow you away because of crappy pitch selection. If he'd have confidence and skill with that hook of his...I'd say that's one HECK of a K pitch. It's really like Jenk's curve...straight nasty, but alas, he NEVER pitches the stupid thing (especially for strikes).

soxinem1
07-19-2006, 04:15 PM
Vazquez is going to start clicking one day soon and when he does he's going to rip off 7 or 8 in a row. He's just too good of a pitcher to continue to struggle the way he has. He's been getting squeezed by the umpires more than any pitcher I've ever seen, and it's been getting into his head. He's got to just go out and make his pitches.

I admire your optimism, but what are you basing this on? Vasquez has been, for years, a tenatative pitcher who throws tons of homers, gives up a lot of hits, and possesses good, raw stuff. I watched him pitch when he was in MTL, NY, and AZ, he has always featured breaking balls early in the count, and uses them to set up hs fastball. Some days the stuff itself is good enough to get a team out, but he is basically the same pitcher, which means we need a lot of runs to bail him out on a consistent basis.

In other words, he should start pitching like a power pitcher on a consistent basis, pound the corners, and put hitters away. Instead, he nibbles, nibbles, nibbles. It drives me nuts now that he's on the White Sox.

INSox56
07-19-2006, 04:17 PM
In other words, he should start pitching like a power pitcher on a consistent basis, pound the corners, and put hitters away. Instead, he nibbles, nibbles, nibbles. It drives me nuts now that he's on the White Sox.

I happen to agree with others that he really isn't pitching like this because we've really been getting rammed on calls on the corners all season long...

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 04:23 PM
I admire your optimism, but what are you basing this on? Vasquez has been, for years, a tenatative pitcher who throws tons of homers, gives up a lot of hits, and possesses good, raw stuff. I watched him pitch when he was in MTL, NY, and AZ, he has always featured breaking balls early in the count, and uses them to set up hs fastball. Some days the stuff itself is good enough to get a team out, but he is basically the same pitcher, which means we need a lot of runs to bail him out on a consistent basis.

In other words, he should start pitching like a power pitcher on a consistent basis, pound the corners, and put hitters away. Instead, he nibbles, nibbles, nibbles. It drives me nuts now that he's on the White Sox.He's been pounding the corners and not getting it called. So he can either continue to try to hit the corners and hope the umpire starts to call it (lots of BB) or catch more of the plate in order to get calls (bye-bye baseball). I don't see that he's doing anything fundamentally different from what he was doing early in the year when he was blowing everyone away. He's just getting forced to put the ball over the plate more. But how many pitchers do you know that have five nasty pitches that they can throw for strikes?

NoShoesJoe
07-19-2006, 04:30 PM
rocket surgery

Nice use of the associative rule of idiom transgression!

IF
Rocket Science = Brain Surgery

THEN
Rocket Science + Brain Surgery = Rocket Surgery

AND
Rocket Science + Brain Surgery = Brain Science

:)

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 04:53 PM
Nice use of the associative rule of idiom transgression!

IF
Rocket Science = Brain Surgery

THEN
Rocket Science + Brain Surgery = Rocket Surgery

AND
Rocket Science + Brain Surgery = Brain Science

:):DJ Thanks. And remember, I said it first.

miker
07-19-2006, 04:56 PM
Thank you...finally someone agrees that Javy will turn this around. And what better night to do it, than tonight?

That's his problem, everything gets into his head. If he would just let it go and collect himself, he could get out of those jams. Every inning he has a meltdown, he comes right back the next inning and dominates...so you know he just needed to collect himself. He just needs to do it more quickly :cool:.
Well how long did we have to wait for Jon Garland to "turn it around?" Seems like Jon and Javy have similiar story lines going.

BTW, I want to see Javy live up to that potential as much as the next Sox fan.

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 05:02 PM
Well how long did we have to wait for Jon Garland to "turn it around?" Seems like Jon and Javy have similiar story lines going.

BTW, I want to see Javy live up to that potential as much as the next Sox fan.Not the same story line at all. What people tend to forget about Garland is that he broke in at the age of 20. So while Sox fans were muttering about his "mediocre" 12 win seasons, most of his contemporaries were honing their skills in A ball or AA. Vazquez is 3 years older, with the corresponding maturity and experience that brings. He appears to me to be right at the verge of breaking out.

TheOldRoman
07-19-2006, 06:15 PM
Tonight would be just dandy.

Am I the only one noticing that Vazquez has really been getting squeezed by the umpires? He can't get a pitch on the corners for anything. What gives?

All of our pitchers have been squeezed, much moreso of late. However, I don't think I have ever seen a pitcher get squeezed more than Buehrle. I swear, half of the balls he throws are in the strikezone.

I have been one of Vazquez' biggest supporters since the trade. I think he will eventually dominate. I didn't jump ship in the last month (I came close, though:cool:), and I am sticking with him. Hopefully tonight he improves and takes steps towards turning it around.

Ol' No. 2
07-19-2006, 06:30 PM
All of our pitchers have been squeezed, much moreso of late. However, I don't think I have ever seen a pitcher get squeezed more than Buehrle. I swear, half of the balls he throws are in the strikezone.

I have been one of Vazquez' biggest supporters since the trade. I think he will eventually dominate. I didn't jump ship in the last month (I came close, though:cool:), and I am sticking with him. Hopefully tonight he improves and takes steps towards turning it around.Bottom line is we've gotten 9 wins from our 5th starter in half a season, which is more than we used to get in a whole season. And before anyone trots out that tired old crap about run support, look more closely. Only two of those wins were not quality starts. He's been bailed out of some losses, but he's earned the wins.

goon
07-19-2006, 06:38 PM
It's so true. At the beginning of last season I told my wife that I would not go to any game that he was pitching - even if I had the tickets.

Now, I've been saying that I hate watching when Vazquez pitches. Well, I hope that I'm wrong again and he turns it around.


what's odd is, of the (i believe) nine games i saw last year, including game one of the ALDS and world series, jose pitched eight of them.


he won them all.

soxinem1
07-19-2006, 07:59 PM
He's been pounding the corners and not getting it called. So he can either continue to try to hit the corners and hope the umpire starts to call it (lots of BB) or catch more of the plate in order to get calls (bye-bye baseball). I don't see that he's doing anything fundamentally different from what he was doing early in the year when he was blowing everyone away. He's just getting forced to put the ball over the plate more. But how many pitchers do you know that have five nasty pitches that they can throw for strikes?

I agree with other pitchers being squeezed, and maybe this guy to an extent, but Vasquez has a long history of being a very timid pitcher. Look at the hits and ERA. With the stuff he has, he should be more aggressive, not serving em up down the middle. He's still giving up a ton of homers. Why do you think he's part of trade rumors?

He has never been agressive. For a Number 5 guy making $11 million a year, he should show a little heart. With his pitch selection, he should be lights out. If it wasn't for run support, he wouldn't have 9 wins.

I think Buerhle has been getting squeezed a lot more than this guy.

IlliniSox
07-19-2006, 09:08 PM
He's just plain dumb with his pitches. That's the bottom line. He's four off his career high for victories right now, and I don't expect anything beyond that. I'm now gonna go punch something.

friarhky22
07-19-2006, 09:10 PM
"My point is, barring any meltdowns, this could be a pretty good pitching matchup considering we're in a pitcher-friendly park."

Well, there's your meltdown. What a mental midget.

jongarlandlover
07-19-2006, 09:14 PM
Not the same story line at all. What people tend to forget about Garland is that he broke in at the age of 20. So while Sox fans were muttering about his "mediocre" 12 win seasons, most of his contemporaries were honing their skills in A ball or AA. Vazquez is 3 years older, with the corresponding maturity and experience that brings. He appears to me to be right at the verge of breaking out.

ugh. i hope javy's on the verge of breaking out. he certainly didn't tonight.

CommanderPudge72
07-19-2006, 09:17 PM
I do not like Javy right now...I will wait till the end, as we can come back.

...but I am getting tired of the big inning act.

:walkoff:
Do we have to do this every time Javy pitches?"

IlliniSox
07-19-2006, 09:29 PM
ugh. i hope javy's on the verge of breaking out. he certainly didn't tonight.

NYY, the Diamondbacks, and the White Sox are all still waiting.

An NL contender could still use him. KW, if somebody calls, give it 'em a good listen.

BeviBall!
07-19-2006, 09:48 PM
"My point is, barring any meltdowns, this could be a pretty good pitching matchup considering we're in a pitcher-friendly park."

Well, there's your meltdown. What a mental midget.
I put some of this on AJ as well. He's calling for the curve. Damn it all! This was going to the script until he hung that one to Pudge, a few batters before Monroe. After that, Javy yelled something on the mound and all was lost.

Grzegorz
07-19-2006, 09:50 PM
Maybe the question should be who you'd rather have on your staff Bonderman or Vasquez.

IlliniSox
07-19-2006, 09:55 PM
Maybe the question should be who you'd rather have on your staff Bonderman or Vasquez.

That would have been a no-brainer even before tonights nonsense.

Grzegorz
07-19-2006, 10:19 PM
Absolutely, so both being 9-4 before tonight's game is coincidence.

IlliniSox4Life
07-19-2006, 11:19 PM
Javy pitched great for 5 innings, and he got a little bad luck tonight. Yeah, he should've worked through it, but he didn't do too bad. He showed definate signs of improving tonight.

KMKsuburbannoise
07-20-2006, 09:09 AM
why do things like this always happen to Javy. He looks pretty good, I go get a little snack and come back to see bases loaded with no outs. He also beamed someone again yesterday. I know he doesn't do it on purpose and he likes to pitch inside but he has hit quite a few batters this year. I think he is a good pitcher but can't be left in the game for as long as Jose, Mark, or even Freddy could.

Vince
07-20-2006, 09:52 AM
I think the Sox should seriously consider moving Javy to the pen and putting McCarthy in the rotation.

I'm not one to think McCarthy is the second coming of cy young or will be some kind of savior, but I can't see how he'd do worse than a 7.50 ERA in June and a 6.16 ERA in July from Javy.

I think it's a move that would benefit both pitchers - Javy is only effective for 3-4 innings and McCarthy always looks shaky until he sees about three batters.

cleanwsox
07-20-2006, 09:56 AM
He also beamed someone again yesterday.


It shouldn't have been a beaning, Granderson was attempting to bunt and had his foot almost on the plate. A low inside pitch hits his foot and he gets first base.

KMKsuburbannoise
07-20-2006, 09:57 AM
I think the Sox should seriously consider moving Javy to the pen and putting McCarthy in the rotation.

I'm not one to think McCarthy is the second coming of cy young or will be some kind of savior, but I can't see how he'd do worse than a 7.50 ERA in June and a 6.16 ERA in July from Javy.

I think it's a move that would benefit both pitchers - Javy is only effective for 3-4 innings and McCarthy always looks shaky until he sees about three batters.

I was going to suggest this myself but did not want to get mulled by the people on the board. I feel that McCarthy could be a good starter. I think that perhaps McCarthy can start the game, go about 4 or 5 ininnings, and then bring in Javy. They can split the game.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:04 AM
If it wasn't for run support, he wouldn't have 9 wins.Nonsense. Look back over the game logs.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:07 AM
I put some of this on AJ as well. He's calling for the curve. Damn it all! This was going to the script until he hung that one to Pudge, a few batters before Monroe. After that, Javy yelled something on the mound and all was lost.Bingo. He's got five good pitches and one crappy one. So which one do they decide to throw to Monroe with the bases loaded? The crappy one. ***???:?: Did the Tiggers get any hits last night except on that rolling curve ball? I'm pretty sure I could hit that.

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 10:16 AM
Nonsense. Look back over the game logs.

Nonsense. He's given up at least 5 runs in 6 of his last 8 starts. He is not a very good pitcher. We are almost 100 games into the season and he is an 8 year veteran and people are still looking for "encouraging" signs. How about stepping up and throwing a nice pitch with the bases loaded, your team up by 1, against the team 3 1/2 games in front of you in the standings? Is that too much to ask for $12 million a year? This is what he's been for a while. Its what he'll always be. He's a guy who should be so much better, but he's not. To say run support has nothing to do with his record is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. The last good game he pitched was when the Sox scored 20 runs for him. A lot of pressure was off him that start.

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 10:17 AM
Bingo. He's got five good pitches and one crappy one. So which one do they decide to throw to Monroe with the bases loaded? The crappy one. ***???:?: Did the Tiggers get any hits last night except on that rolling curve ball? I'm pretty sure I could hit that.

The grand slam was a hanging slider. Vazquez always can shake AJ off.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:19 AM
Nonsense. He's given up at least 5 runs in 6 of his last 8 starts. He is not a very good pitcher. We are almost 100 games into the season and he is an 8 year veteran and people are still looking for "encouraging" signs. How about stepping up and throwing a nice pitch with the bases loaded, your team up by 1, against the team 3 1/2 games in front of you in the standings? Is that too much to ask for $12 million a year? This is what he's been for a while. Its what he'll always be. He's a guy who should be so much better, but he's not. To say run support has nothing to do with his record is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. The last good game he pitched was when the Sox scored 20 runs for him. A lot of pressure was off him that start.Of his 9 wins only two were not quality starts. The offense has gotten him off the hook for some of the losses, but he's earned the wins. Maybe you should check the game logs for yourself instead of just repeating what you've heard.

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 10:23 AM
Of his 9 wins only two were not quality starts. The offense has gotten him off the hook for some of the losses, but he's earned the wins. Maybe you should check the game logs for yourself instead of just repeating what you've heard.

Screw quality starts, its a deceiving stat. The White Sox have scored a total of 93 runs in his 9 wins. He is not good pitching tight games, except if they are against the Royals. He gets a 7-8 run lead, he's effective. He's up 2 or 3 runs, he tends to fall apart. I believe the White Sox have had the lead in all but 1 of his starts. He's the same guy the Yankees thought was hurt, and the DBacks were more than happy he gave them a trade request. He needs to pitch for a team whose games mean nothing. That's where he'll thrive.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:27 AM
Screw quality starts, its a deceiving stat. The White Sox have scored a total of 93 runs in his 9 wins. He is not good pitching tight games, except if they are against the Royals. He gets a 7-8 run lead, he's effective. He's up 2 or 3 runs, he tends to fall apart. I believe the White Sox have had the lead in all but 1 of his starts. He's the same guy the Yankees thought was hurt, and the DBacks were more than happy he gave them a trade request. He needs to pitch for a team whose games mean nothing. That's where he'll thrive.*** are you talking about. So if he wins a game 15-0 I guess he only won because of run support? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

INSox56
07-20-2006, 10:29 AM
*** are you talking about. So if he wins a game 15-0 I guess he only won because of run support? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It actually makes a small semblence of sense....give him a ton of runs he has no pressure. No pressure = better pitching.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:36 AM
It actually makes a small semblence of sense....give him a ton of runs he has no pressure. No pressure = better pitching.Really? Then how come when pitchers get big leads and get scored on people say they're just not bearing down because they have big leads? Or is that one of those old maxims that can be twisted any way you want to fit the situation?

soxinem1
07-20-2006, 10:36 AM
Nonsense. Look back over the game logs.

Okay, here they are:

3,7,4,13,8,9,4,4,9,11,8,5,0,20,9,8,11,6,2

That comes to 7.42 runs scored in his starts. He's also been bailed out several times, like in that pitiful performance he had against the Astros.

He'd be lucky to have a 5-9 record if he didn't play for the top run scoring teram in the ML. The only thing encouraging about him is when he comes out of the game. Sorry, I expect a lot more for $11 mill a year. DickAllen15 is right, how can you rationalize an eight year veteran's performance by looking for 'encouraging signs'?

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 10:36 AM
*** are you talking about. So if he wins a game 15-0 I guess he only won because of run support? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Considering Vazquez hasn't won a game for the White Sox when the team has scored less than 8 runs for him, except for 1 win when they scored four against the worst team in the league, run support is vital to his record. He falls apart in tight games. He's fine if he has a huge lead. There are many, many pitchers that if they pitched with the same run support Vazquez has gotten, would have at least a 9-5 record, and probably better. A lot of those guys don't cost Chris Young, and a lot don't make $12 million a year. It would be nice if he made a quality start when the Sox scored 3 or 4 runs, but that doesn't happen, and goes to show he lacks something. The guy made his reputation playing meaningless games in front of empty seats in Montreal. He's a guy who pitches great when the pressure is off.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:43 AM
Okay, here they are:

3,7,4,13,8,9,4,4,9,11,8,5,0,20,9,8,11,6,2

That comes to 7.42 runs scored in his starts. He's also been bailed out several times, like in that pitiful performance he had against the Astros.

He'd be lucky to have a 5-9 record if he didn't play for the top run scoring teram in the ML.Wrong. How about these numbers:

0,2,0,2,3,0,5,2,3

Those are the ER he's allowed in his 9 wins and the average is 1.9 ER. They would have won all those games but one just by scoring 4 runs. How does the fact they scored a lot of runs make allowing less than two runs a bad outing?

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 10:48 AM
Wrong. How about these numbers:

0,2,0,2,3,0,5,2,3

Those are the ER he's allowed in his 9 wins and the average is 1.9 ER. They would have won all those games but one just by scoring 4 runs. How does the fact they scored a lot of runs make allowing less than two runs a bad outing?

Because if you look at all his other starts, if the Sox only scored 3 or 4 or 5 runs in his wins, he most likely would be giving up a lot more. Do you think its just coincidence that he only throws gems when the White Sox put up a large number of runs, and gets lit up when they don't?

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Because if you look at all his other starts, if the Sox only scored 3 or 4 or 5 runs in his wins, he most likely would be giving up a lot more. Do you think its just coincidence that he only throws gems when the White Sox put up a large number of runs, and gets lit up when they don't?Been getting your information from Miss Cleo?

:cleo Leave me out of it. Even I wouldn't make such a ridiculous assumption.

dickallen15
07-20-2006, 11:17 AM
Been getting your information from Miss Cleo?

:cleo Leave me out of it. Even I wouldn't make such a ridiculous assumption.
No I just looked up the game logs like you told me to. I am intelligent enough to come to the conclusion that if I were the White Sox, I would think the chances of winning a game Vazquez was pitching when the team wasn't going to put up at least 8 runs.....................remote, although he did get that big win against the Royals in April when the weight of White Sox fans everywhere was clearly on his shoulders. If he once were to come up big when the team need him to, maybe I would feel different. Its just that 9 wins isn't all that impressive when you realize the team scored 4,13,8,9,9,11,8,20,11 runs in them. This guy didn' even get the win in games when the team scored 10,8 and 7 runs. Iguchi saved him the loss with those homers against Houston, and AJ with his 9th inning blast against the Cubs.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 11:30 AM
No I just looked up the game logs like you told me to. I am intelligent enough to come to the conclusion that if I were the White Sox, I would think the chances of winning a game Vazquez was pitching when the team wasn't going to put up at least 8 runs.....................remote, although he did get that big win against the Royals in April when the weight of White Sox fans everywhere was clearly on his shoulders. If he once were to come up big when the team need him to, maybe I would feel different. Its just that 9 wins isn't all that impressive when you realize the team scored 4,13,8,9,9,11,8,20,11 runs in them. This guy didn' even get the win in games when the team scored 10,8 and 7 runs. Iguchi saved him the loss with those homers against Houston, and AJ with his 9th inning blast against the Cubs.Run support bailed him out of a couple of losses. In 4 ND he allowed 2, 3, 9 and 5 runs. So he might have been 9-7 instead of 9-5. But every pitcher is an occasional beneficiary of that.

But he pitched well enough in those 9 wins to earn them. You can't just assume he wouldn't if they hadn't scored as many runs. I can just as easily assume he would have pitched better. The facts are what they are.

White Sox Randy
07-20-2006, 12:00 PM
In his entire major league career JIM PALMER NEVER GAVE UP A GRAND SLAM !

Some guys have it and some don't.

Vazquez doesn't but McCarthy does.

BeviBall!
07-20-2006, 12:19 PM
In his entire major league career JIM PALMER NEVER GAVE UP A GRAND SLAM !

Some guys have it and some don't.

Vazquez doesn't but McCarthy might.

That's more accurate.

TornLabrum
07-20-2006, 12:21 PM
It shouldn't have been a beaning, Granderson was attempting to bunt and had his foot almost on the plate. A low inside pitch hits his foot and he gets first base.

This is as bad as it gets. Now getting hit in the foot may or may not be a "beaning." Beaning means hitting somebody in the head.

soxinem1
07-20-2006, 01:00 PM
Wrong. How about these numbers:

0,2,0,2,3,0,5,2,3

Those are the ER he's allowed in his 9 wins and the average is 1.9 ER. They would have won all those games but one just by scoring 4 runs. How does the fact they scored a lot of runs make allowing less than two runs a bad outing?

No, I am right! He has had a lot of run support, early runs support, and no decisions in games a less prolific scoring team would have guaranteed him a loss. You are referring to earned runs allowed, I was referring to run support. But as they say when looking at box score stats, it only tells part of the story.

How do you defend a guy who pitches like a minor league journeyman? You are picking apart rare games against lineups that were not all that tough as well. Much like GArland, I don't care if he has a 7-0 lead in the 7th inning, Vasquez can give back that lead just as fast with the best of them.

Vasquez gives up a ton of hits, HR's and runs! Sure, nine wins is good from a #5 guy half way through the season, but for $11 million, it should not matter where he is in the rotation.

Last night was a perfect example. In the sixth, the hitters made adjustments to him, he did not do it in reverse. His half-*** hanger on a 2-2 pitch to a guy who cannot hit a good ML fastball was a sumarization of Vasquez's sad career. He may not walk a lot of guys, but he loses counts with the best of them, and that frisbee to Monroe was an uncomposed, get-me-over kind of pitch he has been known for lobbing up there for years.

He's played for some good teams and has left all of them shaking their heads. We hoped he would put it together working under Coop, but he's just as tentative as ever.

Vasquez needs to attack, attack, attack the strike zone and quit nibbling. He might just become something better than an over paid .500 thrower.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 01:34 PM
No, I am right! He has had a lot of run support, early runs support, and no decisions in games a less prolific scoring team would have guaranteed him a loss. You are referring to earned runs allowed, I was referring to run support. But as they say when looking at box score stats, it only tells part of the story.

How do you defend a guy who pitches like a minor league journeyman? You are picking apart rare games against lineups that were not all that tough as well. Much like GArland, I don't care if he has a 7-0 lead in the 7th inning, Vasquez can give back that lead just as fast with the best of them.

Vasquez gives up a ton of hits, HR's and runs! Sure, nine wins is good from a #5 guy half way through the season, but for $11 million, it should not matter where he is in the rotation.

Last night was a perfect example. In the sixth, the hitters made adjustments to him, he did not do it in reverse. His half-*** hanger on a 2-2 pitch to a guy who cannot hit a good ML fastball was a sumarization of Vasquez's sad career. He may not walk a lot of guys, but he loses counts with the best of them, and that frisbee to Monroe was an uncomposed, get-me-over kind of pitch he has been known for lobbing up there for years.

He's played for some good teams and has left all of them shaking their heads. We hoped he would put it together working under Coop, but he's just as tentative as ever.

Vasquez needs to attack, attack, attack the strike zone and quit nibbling. He might just become something better than an over paid .500 thrower.What's run support got to do with whether or not he pitched well or not?:?: If you throw 6 innings allowing less than 2 runs, that's good pitching, regardless of how many runs the offense scored.

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 01:37 PM
That's more accurate.The most popular guy on the team is always the backup quarterback.

soxinem1
07-20-2006, 01:45 PM
What's run support got to do with whether or not he pitched well or not?:?: If you throw 6 innings allowing less than 2 runs, that's good pitching, regardless of how many runs the offense scored.

I agree. Now Vasquez has to start doing it!!!

Ol' No. 2
07-20-2006, 02:14 PM
I agree. Now Vasquez has to start doing it!!!All he has to do is stop throwing that *&#@!%$*&^$&@ rolling curve ball.

soxinem1
07-20-2006, 09:43 PM
All he has to do is stop throwing that *&#@!%$*&^$&@ rolling curve ball.

Glad to see you are coming around, 2!!!