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soxinem1
07-17-2006, 08:57 PM
I for one, am quite tired of hearing "What's wrong w/ the Sox", or any of this silly banter. Despite a struggling pitching staff, this is the second best team record-wise, the top HR and run scring team, and even with the struggles of the past two weekends, a team that is never out of it until the last pitch is thrown.

At the same time, I am through with hearing comparisons to last year as well. This is not last year. Time to move on.

I hear people calling for the heads of Pods, Uribe, and Anderson. Some say we should trade for Tejada and someone like Torii Hunter. I personally do not believe All-Stars should be at every position.

What happened to building a versatile offense that does not rely on homers? I for one like watching steals, execution, and smart base-running, something this team is sorely lacking in. Sure Uribe is hitting .230 and Anderson .198. Take a look at the Yankees, Mets, and a few other contenders and see what they have up and down. I'll take this line up, as is, over any other team's line up.

They are 23 games over .500. Nothing is perfect. The baserunning, defense, and bullpen for innings 6 and 7 is a bit iffy, but I would much rather be in the Sox shoes than almost any other contender in the ML, because the depth in position players this team has is the best I have seen in my 30+ years as a Sox fan.

But watching the high pitch counts of Sox starters just a few weeks ago when we were in the midst of a great stretch of baseball had me worried, because all pitchers go through dead arms. I think we have three right now that are doing that. When a starter uses his breaking pitches to set up his fastball like Buerhle, Vasquez, and Garcia are doing it is frustrating, but we went though this last year too, they just didn't do it together. I believe Sox starters still average more IP per start than anyone else. It was only two years ago that 3 of 5 were even able to get into the sixth inning.

I still contend that KW had no business leaving ST with this pen, but even GM's cannot pull rabbits out of the hat every time. I remember the Todd Rizzo's, Jose Segura's, Jeff Bittiger's, Ernesto Escarega's, Steve Fireovid's, and Juan Agosto's of the last 25+ years. Even contenders are going to have their scrubs, the 2006 White Sox included.

Adding someone like Elmer Dessens would be a big boost to the pen, as he can effectively throw 2-4 innings when needed. Roberto Hernandez or even LaTroy Hawkins would be one type of transaction that could add major dividends.

But hitting the panic button and talking about 'big trades' and 'major changes' is just dumb.

Any thoughts?

Lip Man 1
07-17-2006, 08:59 PM
My only thought is the Sox need to play consistently better despite the killer schedule, tired starting staff and less then stellar fundamental execution or they won't have the '2nd best record' in baseball for much longer.

They can begin tomorrow night since Kansas City has pulled their 'el foldo' act again tonight and the Yankees and Twins are currently leading their games.

Lip

oeo
07-17-2006, 09:01 PM
I for one, am quite tired of hearing "What's wrong w/ the Sox", or any of this silly banter. Despite a struggling pitching staff, this is the second best team record-wise, the top HR and run scring team, and even with the struggles of the past two weekends, a team that is never out of it until the last pitch is thrown.

At the same time, I am through with hearing comparisons to last year as well. This is not last year. Time to move on.

I hear people calling for the heads of Pods, Uribe, and Anderson. Some say we should trade for Tejada and someone like Torii Hunter. I personally do not believe All-Stars should be at every position.

What happened to building a versatile offense that does not rely on homers? I for one like watching steals, execution, and smart base-running, something this team is sorely lacking in. Sure Uribe is hitting .230 and Anderson .198. Take a look at the Yankees, Mets, and a few other contenders and see what they have up and down. I'll take this line up, as is, over any other team's line up.

They are 23 games over .500. Nothing is perfect. The baserunning, defense, and bullpen for innings 6 and 7 is a bit iffy, but I would much rather be in the Sox shoes than almost any other contender in the ML, because the depth in position players this team has is the best I have seen in my 30+ years as a Sox fan.

But watching the high pitch counts of Sox starters just a few weeks ago when we were in the midst of a great stretch of baseball had me worried, because all pitchers go through dead arms. I think we have three right now that are doing that. When a starter uses his breaking pitches to set up his fastball like Buerhle, Vasquez, and Garcia are doing it is frustrating, but we went though this last year too, they just didn't do it together. I believe Sox starters still average more IP per start than anyone else. It was only two years ago that 3 of 5 were even able to get into the sixth inning.

I still contend that KW had no business leaving ST with this pen, but even GM's cannot pull rabbits out of the hat every time. I remember the Todd Rizzo's, Jose Segura's, Jeff Bittiger's, Ernesto Escarega's, Steve Fireovid's, and Juan Agosto's of the last 25+ years. Even contenders are going to have their scrubs, the 2006 White Sox included.

Adding someone like Elmer Dessens would be a big boost to the pen, as he can effectively throw 2-4 innings when needed. Roberto Hernandez or even LaTroy Hawkins would be one type of transaction that could add major dividends.

But hitting the panic button and talking about 'big trades' and 'major changes' is just dumb.

Any thoughts?
Agreed. I can't listen to the radio because all I hear is how bad the Sox pitching staff is. It's quite annoying, but I guess they don't have much else to talk about.

I still think that the bullpen is underrated, but that's just me. Solidify it with another righty and it's a solid bullpen. This team does NOT need a big trade...they're struggling right now, but they will get through it.

And Lip: Didn't you just tell me in another thread today, to not worry about the Tigers, worry about the Sox. Don't worry about the Red Sox and Yankees, because this season is far from over, and talking about the Wild Card is loser talk.

delben91
07-17-2006, 09:04 PM
I just keep telling myself that based on their career numbers that all of the starters just can't continue to be this horrendous forever.

I've been wrong before, but I don't think I am this time.

Chips
07-17-2006, 09:06 PM
I just keep telling myself that based on their career numbers that all of the starters just can't continue to be this horrendous forever.

I've been wrong before, but I don't think I am this time.

I don't think you're wrong either. It's called a slump. They happen over the course of 162 games.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2006, 09:07 PM
OEO:

The White Sox have two chances to make the postseason. I personally don't care if it's by winning the division or getting in as the wild card, it's all the same to me.

They are a veteran team so playing on the road in the postseason shouldn't bother them.

I don't look at it (as you do) that they MUST win the division...the only MUST with me is, make the postseason, and right now they have to play better to do that.

Lip

oeo
07-17-2006, 09:09 PM
OEO:

The White Sox have two chances to make the postseason. I personally don't care if it's by winning the division or getting in as the wild card, it's all the same to me.

They are a veteran team so playing on the road in the postseason shouldn't bother them.

I don't look at it (as you do) that they MUST win the division...the only MUST with me is, make the postseason, and right now they have to play better to do that.

Lip
Of course I do...the Wild Card wasn't good enough to be a champion, so they just get in. If they do end up the Wild Card, I'm not going to be mad, but the goal right now is to win the division. You don't go into a season saying you want to win the Wild Card, you want to win your division; and I hope every guy on the team feels that way as well.

So I'm going to ignore the Wild Card "race" (it's not a race right now, it's July), and go for the division.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2006, 09:22 PM
A number of 'wild cards' have wound up winning the World Series which (to me) proves my point...it's not how you get into the postseason, just get in and take your chances.

Would I like to see the Sox win the division, of course, it means more home post season games but in the long run that doesn't matter just be playing in October.

Lip

PushnThaEscalade
07-17-2006, 09:28 PM
The Sox are gonna be fine. plain and simple.

soxinem1
07-17-2006, 09:28 PM
A number of 'wild cards' have wound up winning the World Series which (to me) proves my point...it's not how you get into the postseason, just get in and take your chances.

Would I like to see the Sox win the division, of course, it means more home post season games but in the long run that doesn't matter just be playing in October.

Lip

Depends on how you look at it. If the Sox slid in with the WC last year after blowing a huge lead, would you have been pleased?

But to look at the last several participants of the World Series like Boston, Houston, Marlins (twice), and Angels, how can you argue if it was a season long chase? If a team blows a big lead and backdoors into the playoffs with a WC berth, the I can understand feeling down about being in the playoffs.

Question: Has there been a Division-winning World Champion who followed up by winning the WC?

Timmy D's
07-17-2006, 09:33 PM
The Sox are gonna be fine. plain and simple.

Yeppers!! Sox will win the division by a +4 game margin.
:wink:

Lip Man 1
07-17-2006, 09:48 PM
Soxinem1:

Good question. Since the start of the three divisional set up / wild card I found two occurances.

In 1996 the Yankees won the division, won the series then got back to the post season as the wild card in 97.

In 2000 the Cardinals won the central division then in 2001 got into the post season as the wild card.

There may be more and I may have missed them so feel free to check.

Also since the three division / wild card format there have only been two instances of a team winning the World Series then not even making the playoffs the following year. Both times it was the Marlins in 97/98 and 02/03.

Lip

spiffie
07-17-2006, 09:50 PM
I just keep telling myself that based on their career numbers that all of the starters just can't continue to be this horrendous forever.

I've been wrong before, but I don't think I am this time.
I think it depends which pitcher you're looking at.

Some guys I think this is about what you're going to get. Vazquez for instance has one quality start against a team that was over .500 when we played them. And in that start we gave him 20 runs to work with. Otherwise he's pretty much pitched mostly solid against crap teams and been beaten up by good teams. And I don't see any reason in the last 3 years to believe that he is going to magically turn it around.

Garcia is a weird case as he's not pitched horribly, but he seems unable to really get a rhythm. He goes for a few really nice streak, like in early-mid May when he gave up just 10 ER in 35 2/3 innings. But then he immediately went and in his next 4 starts gave up 21 ER in 23 innings. It's obvious that he can still pitch well. If anyone is going to have a major improvement in the second half I would bank on Freddy over anyone else as he has pitched better than the overall numbers would suggest, and has kept us in most of the games he has pitched in. Even in the debacle that was last Sunday he worked 7 innings and gave up 6 runs which is not an amount our offense is incapable of making up.

Buehrle has seen his ERA jump 1.21 in just his last 3 starts. Part of that was due to Ozzie leaving him in just way too long against the Cubs. Of all the pitchers, this is the one I would most be willing to use the word "slump" with. Before this last 3 game stretch Buehrle threw 10 starts giving up only 23 ER, an average of 2.3 per start. His worst start in that stretch was 6 ER in 7 innings. Buehrle has earned the right to have a couple of bad days. If on July 31 we have seen 3 more shellings like we just saw, then KW will have to ask some hard questions. But until then, I will not worry about him.

Jose Contreras just needs to stop ****ing around with 12 different arm angles and things of that nature and do what he did for about 20 straight starts. It's working fine. Just relax and get back to it and he'll be fine.

Garland has dropped his ERA every month. After his last starts in each month:
April: 7.11
May: 6.23
June: 5.60
July: 5.37
If he keeps this trend up he should end up right in line with his career norms which will be fine all things considered. He's not the all-star pitcher he was the first half of last year but I see no reason he can't give us a very solid second half.

So basically you have one guy who should be a stud in the second half (JC), one guy who is showing improvement every month (JG), one guy who should improve hopefully (FG), one guy who we have to hope is just having a rough patch and will likely pitch out of it (MB), and one guy who honestly is not likely to be any more than what we've seen the first half (JV).

southside rocks
07-17-2006, 09:52 PM
Agreed. I can't listen to the radio because all I hear is how bad the Sox pitching staff is. It's quite annoying, but I guess they don't have much else to talk about.

I still think that the bullpen is underrated, but that's just me. Solidify it with another righty and it's a solid bullpen. This team does NOT need a big trade...they're struggling right now, but they will get through it.

No, the radio no-minds have nothing else to talk about; not even the atrocity that is the Cubs' season can fill up all that dead air. So they are writing obits for the 2006 Sox. Yawn.

This is actually what I find so interesting about baseball: the way that a team is not a collection of the best players (also known as the Steinbrenner Plan), but a melding of players of various abilities and attitudes into a cohesive unit, where the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts. As someone in another thread noted, the 2005 Sox on paper were a .500 ballclub, and should have finished third. But their cohesion and ability to play as a team made them the WS champions.

Posts on internet boards that hysterically declare the Sox' need for more .300 hitters and a slew of 2.20 ERA pitchers tend to be from people who confuse fantasy baseball with the real thing, IMO.

It's annoying that four-fifths of the Sox starting rotation seems to have bugged out simultaneously; pitchers are head cases, and prone to do that, but when a bunch of them do it at one time, it's frustrating for all concerned.

Nothing in the performance of the club this season makes me think that this won't pass, though.

thomas35forever
07-17-2006, 10:27 PM
I don't think you're wrong either. It's called a slump. They happen over the course of 162 games.
If I'm correct, the last one took place the week of Memorial Day. Everyone was upset and pressing the panic button, but we calmed down and things turned right again. Relax, people. I'm sure the '98 Yankees went through a slump or two like this one. Let's not even think about the playoffs during this upcoming series and just focus on winning.

buehrle4cy05
07-17-2006, 10:31 PM
I for one, am quite tired of hearing "What's wrong w/ the Sox", or any of this silly banter. Despite a struggling pitching staff, this is the second best team record-wise, the top HR and run scring team, and even with the struggles of the past two weekends, a team that is never out of it until the last pitch is thrown.

At the same time, I am through with hearing comparisons to last year as well. This is not last year. Time to move on.

I hear people calling for the heads of Pods, Uribe, and Anderson. Some say we should trade for Tejada and someone like Torii Hunter. I personally do not believe All-Stars should be at every position.

What happened to building a versatile offense that does not rely on homers? I for one like watching steals, execution, and smart base-running, something this team is sorely lacking in. Sure Uribe is hitting .230 and Anderson .198. Take a look at the Yankees, Mets, and a few other contenders and see what they have up and down. I'll take this line up, as is, over any other team's line up.

They are 23 games over .500. Nothing is perfect. The baserunning, defense, and bullpen for innings 6 and 7 is a bit iffy, but I would much rather be in the Sox shoes than almost any other contender in the ML, because the depth in position players this team has is the best I have seen in my 30+ years as a Sox fan.

But watching the high pitch counts of Sox starters just a few weeks ago when we were in the midst of a great stretch of baseball had me worried, because all pitchers go through dead arms. I think we have three right now that are doing that. When a starter uses his breaking pitches to set up his fastball like Buerhle, Vasquez, and Garcia are doing it is frustrating, but we went though this last year too, they just didn't do it together. I believe Sox starters still average more IP per start than anyone else. It was only two years ago that 3 of 5 were even able to get into the sixth inning.

I still contend that KW had no business leaving ST with this pen, but even GM's cannot pull rabbits out of the hat every time. I remember the Todd Rizzo's, Jose Segura's, Jeff Bittiger's, Ernesto Escarega's, Steve Fireovid's, and Juan Agosto's of the last 25+ years. Even contenders are going to have their scrubs, the 2006 White Sox included.

Adding someone like Elmer Dessens would be a big boost to the pen, as he can effectively throw 2-4 innings when needed. Roberto Hernandez or even LaTroy Hawkins would be one type of transaction that could add major dividends.

But hitting the panic button and talking about 'big trades' and 'major changes' is just dumb.

Any thoughts?

yup yup

I completely agree with you. Andruw Jones? I'll take a young, healthy Brian Anderson going into the prime of his career over a showboating, aging, injured (shoulder) Jones. I don't give a **** about the stats right now. I think you hit it right on the nail, just a little trade for a reliever and that's all we need.

kwolf68
07-17-2006, 10:36 PM
I don't believe the Sox will make any major deal. Right now, Kenny's hands are tied in that the weakness of our team right now is our perceived strength.

It's one thing to be dealing for bullpen help, because a player previously counted on (Cliff) fell off, or dealing for a player because you perceive that a youngster may not be ready (Brian).

However, our problem right now is pitching. Heck, we have not 3, not 4, not even 5...but 6 legit starting pitchers, 5 of which were instrumental in the White Sox winning the pennant last year.

Now they all seemingly have totally lost it in some form or fashion. We can't trade FOR starters, because we have champion pitchers on our staff who are just struggling right now.

Vazquez, Garcia, and Buehrle have been atrocious of late, but Garcia did seem to find something late in the Yankees game. Contreras has been solid lately, but not dominant and Garland does seem like he is getting into the groove.

So in my mind, unless we do make a deal from our stacked deck of 6 starters for relief help+prospects then I don't see anything happening. People are saying we want a middle relief guy, but realistically what do you give up for that? Certainly you don't give up a front line starter or a top prospect. We already made one deal (Riske) for a middle relief guy and I think we'll try to find another guy out of Tracey, Montero, Farnsworth.

If we don't make any deals and the rotation stays as is, McCarthy+Riske+Jenks+whomever should be more than adequate to get the job done.

The bottom line is this comes down to our starting pitching. If they can get it going, this team will return to the post-season. If it continues as it has been for any extended period of time, we won't make the playoffs. You won't have any chance of holding off the Twins, Yankees, Blue Jays, RedSox with pitchers dealing up high 4> eras.

BadBobbyJenks
07-18-2006, 12:20 AM
yup yup

I completely agree with you. Andruw Jones? I'll take a young, healthy Brian Anderson going into the prime of his career over a showboating, aging, injured (shoulder) Jones. I don't give a **** about the stats right now. I think you hit it right on the nail, just a little trade for a reliever and that's all we need.




Andruw Jones is a 29 year old perennial gold glover with 81 rbis to this point...the guy is a stud

But I dont want to give up what ever it would take to get him and Im perfectly happy with BA. I just think that was a ridiculous comment about Andruw. I for one think KW should sit on his hands at the deadline, I believe Javy will come around and I always have been a believer in Fabulous Freddy Garcia.

oeo
07-18-2006, 01:22 AM
A number of 'wild cards' have wound up winning the World Series which (to me) proves my point...it's not how you get into the postseason, just get in and take your chances.

Would I like to see the Sox win the division, of course, it means more home post season games but in the long run that doesn't matter just be playing in October.

Lip
My point is, no one should be even thinking about the Wild Card right now. The goal is a division title...sure, I will take any way they get into the playoffs, but I don't like the Wild Card watch so early in the season. Don't settle for the Wild Card, win the best division in baseball.

Another thing...if they get the Wild Card, they will not get homefield advantage unless they get to the World Series. Win this division, and you will probably have homefield advantage throughout the postseason.

TheOldRoman
07-18-2006, 02:15 AM
Also since the three division / wild card format there have only been two instances of a team winning the World Series then not even making the playoffs the following year. Both times it was the Marlins in 97/98 and 02/03.

Lip
Don't forget the 2003 Angels.

Lip Man 1
07-18-2006, 10:48 AM
Roman:

Missed that many thanks!

Lip