PDA

View Full Version : pitchers "slumps"


Greg1983
07-16-2006, 03:39 PM
I need some help from the seam-heads here, as I'm not as much a historian/statistician as I'd like.

We're all familiar with hitters going into slumps and pulling out of it (i.e. PK in '05, and perhaps BA this year). I'm not as familiar with pitchers doing the same. It seems like pitchers are more likely to have good years or bad years. Obviously, everyone has some crummy starts along the way, but not the prolonged difficulties we've seen lately from Mark and Freddy.

So, is anyone aware of any historical precedents in which pitchers like Buehrle and Garcia go into slumps that last for a considerable period, perhaps a month or so, and then regain their form?

At the very least, this might offer some perspective. Maybe what Mark and Freddy are dealing with isn't all that abnormal.

Jurr
07-16-2006, 03:45 PM
My friend, look no further than last September. Garland, Buehrle, and Garcia were all struggling to get wins at the end of last year, and the efforts of Jose Contreras propelled the Sox to the finish line.

Everybody came together in October, which ended up in a ring for the Sox.

Greg1983
07-16-2006, 03:53 PM
Good point, Jurr. But what I'm wondering is if, statistically, the slump of September '05 is comparable to the slump of July '06. Maybe September '05 was far worse, and we all need to chill, or maybe July '06 is much worse and we really need to be concerned.

Stats don't tell everything, of course, but I thought some concrete numbers might help us figure out where we really stand.

TornLabrum
07-16-2006, 03:57 PM
At some point or points every season just about every pitcher goes through at least one "dead arm period." I'd say those correspond to slumps.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2006, 04:01 PM
As a former pitcher I can tell you pitchers do go through slumps. They get tired, they get some bad breaks, they get mentally beat-up.

For the Sox right now I think it's a combination of all of the above PLUS the fact that it was a pressure filled 2005 season, it was a shorter off season and two of the starters for some strange reason decided to participate in that worthless WBC.

Garcia for example, who pitched the final game on October 24th (?) was back working out in January because he had to pitch in the WBC in February.

That is insane and the Sox are now feeling the effects of it... not Bud Selig. No wonder Kenny had sarcastic comments about it in the newspapers.

Lip

Sxy Mofo
07-16-2006, 04:03 PM
Good point, Jurr. But what I'm wondering is if, statistically, the slump of September '05 is comparable to the slump of July '06. Maybe September '05 was far worse, and we all need to chill, or maybe July '06 is much worse and we really need to be concerned.

Stats don't tell everything, of course, but I thought some concrete numbers might help us figure out where we really stand.

I'm thinking it was '03 when Mark just had a terrible first half... but then managed to pull out a decent season with a good second half. I think that was one of his only really prolonged slumps of his career (unless you want to count the last 3 games).

Yup, I looked it up, it was '03. Whether he's had more slumps that I'm not remembering... eh.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/players/splits?statsId=6525&type=pitching&year=2003

StatHead21
07-16-2006, 04:07 PM
At some point or points every season just about every pitcher goes through at least one "dead arm period." I'd say those correspond to slumps.

Freddy and Garland have had dead arms all season....

Paulwny
07-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Garcia for example, who pitched the final game on October 24th (?) was back working out in January because he had to pitch in the WBC in February.

That is insane and the Sox are now feeling the effects of it... not Bud Selig. No wonder Kenny had sarcastic comments about it in the newspapers.

Lip

Yank tv announcer Michael Kay, ~ " Our reports have Garcia's fast ball 4mph slower than last yr."
Jim Kaat, ~ " He's a work horse, pitching all those innings in his career may have caught up with him."

BanditJimmy
07-16-2006, 04:10 PM
I do believe in pitching slumps on an individual basis. but not an entire rotation at the same time. Unless pitchers have been over worked, which is what I think has happened here. Those 200 +innings from last year and all the CGs in the play-offs, I think these guys have finally reached the tired/ dead arm period.


Would it be a bad idea to get McCarthy and perhaps a Sean Tracy into the rotaion and DL a few of these guys for 15 days (Garcia & Buehrle) and just have them rest with now throw for those 15 days? I really don't Tracy and B-mac can do any worse right now.

Sox-o-matic
07-16-2006, 04:11 PM
Freddy and Garland have had dead arms all season....

I don't think so. Freddy, yes, but Garland just didn't have his control during the majority of the first half. His arm wasn't the touble.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2006, 04:30 PM
Bandit:

The Sox are in between a rock and a hard place though.

If they take out McCarthy it weakes the bullpen (which is far from last year's caliber) If they let a 'rookie' pitch a few games and he gets shelled what does that do to the race?

The Sox aren't in a position to give away games at this stage.

I don't have the answer unfortunately but I'm just saying I don't think they can do your suggestions.

Lip

BainesHOF
07-16-2006, 04:32 PM
Garcia for example, who pitched the final game on October 24th (?) was back working out in January because he had to pitch in the WBC in February.

That is insane and the Sox are now feeling the effects of it.

I hope we don't look back on Garcia pitching in the WBC as the beginning of the end of our reign. At the moment it looks like a colossal mistake.

TDog
07-16-2006, 04:51 PM
It is quite common for good pitchers to slump in July and August when hitters are peaking. There are a variety of reasons, although it isn't true for everyone. Some pitchers start out poorly and hit their stride around mid-season. Others get off to a quick start and fade. For a large group, some of the midseason slump has to do with the weather. Some of it has to do with more hitters getting more comfortable and making adjustments. Some of it has to do with dead arms. Curt Flood and Man Soo Lee, two successful baseball players from different cultures, both have said the American season is too long. (Man Soo's home run total is in the 200s because in South Korea they only played half as many games.)

The good pitchers come back in September and shine in October. Others are just done. Pitching is generally better during the postseason than during the regular season. White Sox fans saw that last year (although Clement proved to be just done, as he was in 2003 with the Cubs).

The trick is getting to October. A big part of that is figuring out which pitchers will be there for you (see Jose Contreras, 2005) and which are just done (See Estaban Loaiza, 2004).

Huisj
07-16-2006, 05:25 PM
It is quite common for good pitchers to slump in July and August when hitters are peaking. There are a variety of reasons, although it isn't true for everyone. Some pitchers start out poorly and hit their stride around mid-season. Others get off to a quick start and fade. For a large group, some of the midseason slump has to do with the weather. Some of it has to do with more hitters getting more comfortable and making adjustments. Some of it has to do with dead arms. Curt Flood and Man Soo Lee, two successful baseball players from different cultures, both have said the American season is too long. (Man Soo's home run total is in the 200s because in South Korea they only played half as many games.)

The good pitchers come back in September and shine in October. Others are just done. Pitching is generally better during the postseason than during the regular season. White Sox fans saw that last year (although Clement proved to be just done, as he was in 2003 with the Cubs).

The trick is getting to October. A big part of that is figuring out which pitchers will be there for you (see Jose Contreras, 2005) and which are just done (See Estaban Loaiza, 2004).

At the same time, that long season is part of what makes baseball so interesting and special. So much can happen over the course of a season that is 162 games, and having a substantially shorter season (say, 100 games maybe) would take a lot away from it. That would almost turn the season into a sprint.

TDog
07-16-2006, 05:28 PM
At the same time, that long season is part of what makes baseball so interesting and special. So much can happen over the course of a season that is 162 games, and having a substantially shorter season (say, 100 games maybe) would take a lot away from it. That would almost turn the season into a sprint.

I agree. November through March is such a dreary time because there is no baseball.

Pierzynski 12
07-17-2006, 12:44 PM
Overrated staff.

voodoochile
07-17-2006, 01:06 PM
Overrated staff.

The Sox? :?:

Ol' No. 2
07-17-2006, 02:39 PM
It is quite common for good pitchers to slump in July and August when hitters are peaking. There are a variety of reasons, although it isn't true for everyone. Some pitchers start out poorly and hit their stride around mid-season. Others get off to a quick start and fade. For a large group, some of the midseason slump has to do with the weather. Some of it has to do with more hitters getting more comfortable and making adjustments. Some of it has to do with dead arms. Curt Flood and Man Soo Lee, two successful baseball players from different cultures, both have said the American season is too long. (Man Soo's home run total is in the 200s because in South Korea they only played half as many games.)

The good pitchers come back in September and shine in October. Others are just done. Pitching is generally better during the postseason than during the regular season. White Sox fans saw that last year (although Clement proved to be just done, as he was in 2003 with the Cubs).

The trick is getting to October. A big part of that is figuring out which pitchers will be there for you (see Jose Contreras, 2005) and which are just done (See Estaban Loaiza, 2004).I'm beginning to wonder if pitching the extra innings in the playoffs last year is bringing on the "dead arm" period sooner than usual.

TheOldRoman
07-17-2006, 03:11 PM
Overrated staff.
Overrated troll.
:dtroll:

Chicken Dinner
07-17-2006, 03:26 PM
How is it that throwing a meatball right down the middle of the plate is "dead arm sydrome"? :nuts:

StatHead21
07-17-2006, 03:39 PM
Overrated troll.
:dtroll:

How is he a troll if its true? This staff is extremly overrated...

Ol' No. 2
07-17-2006, 03:39 PM
How is it that throwing a meatball right down the middle of the plate is "dead arm sydrome"? :nuts:Most pitchers go through a "dead arm" period during the year. August is the most common time. It's not just manifested in lost velocity. Not enough follow-through can cause a ball to be left up in the zone because the release point changes. Small changes in arm angle as a pitcher tries to compensate also can cause pitches to wander from their intended location.

SoxSpeed22
07-17-2006, 03:47 PM
Don't forget that the weather also gets hotter, muggier and much more humid in the dog days. Which would lead to the ball not moving as well as it should, which also results in pitchers getting hammered more.

Paulwny
07-17-2006, 03:50 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if pitching the extra innings in the playoffs last year is bringing on the "dead arm" period sooner than usual.



FWIW,
Jim Kaat mentioned this yesterday. However, he used it as ~ proof of the quality of the yank medical staff and Mel Stottlemeir (sp)., the starters not breaking down even though they had been to so many consecutive play-off games.

Pierzynski 12
07-17-2006, 04:00 PM
Overrated troll.
:dtroll:

No i'm not. It's the truth.:rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
07-17-2006, 04:00 PM
FWIW,
Jim Kaat mentioned this yesterday. However, he used it as ~ proof of the quality of the yank medical staff and Mel Stottlemeir (sp)., the starters not breaking down even though they had been to so many consecutive play-off games.Or maybe it's just because the Yankees made a habit of giving all their pitchers breaks by putting them on the DL for several weeks during the season.

Paulwny
07-17-2006, 04:05 PM
Or maybe it's just because the Yankees made a habit of giving all their pitchers breaks by putting them on the DL for several weeks during the season.

Yep, this wasn't mentioned.

voodoochile
07-17-2006, 04:16 PM
How is he a troll if its true? This staff is extremly overrated...

So a few bad months out of a career and suddenly guys like Buehrle and Garcia are overrated?

This makes no sense at all...:?:

Dan H
07-17-2006, 04:19 PM
I think the staff has not been as good as last year. That doesn't mean they can't turn it around. But I am concerned that the trouble goes beyond being tired.

I also don't think that we can just point to last year and say that will happen again this year. One year has nothing to do with another.

Right now the Sox have two things going for them: Detroit is not going to fold, but it will go through some kind of losing period. And secondly, these pitchers have won in the past.

I'm not panicking, but I'm not willing to just laugh this off right now. Meanwhile the Sox can't afford to stay in any pro-longed slump. They're the ones in second place and their wild card lead has shrunk. I hope it is just fatigue.

Chicken Dinner
07-17-2006, 04:43 PM
Fatigue....dead arm syndrome......come on. Buerhle and Garcia just came off 8 days of rest. Garland will have 13, except for a small relief outing. Contreras only had the normal 5 days and he pitched 7 innings with 4 ER (3 if the pen hadn't given up all those hits after he was pulled) which isn't too bad.

These guys need to step it up!! Put some fire in their eyes. Locate pitches. Read the scouting reports. Stop walking batters and quit throwing meatballs down the heart of the plate with an 0-2 count.

Ol' No. 2
07-17-2006, 04:52 PM
Fatigue....dead arm syndrome......come on. Buerhle and Garcia just came off 8 days of rest. Garland will have 13, except for a small relief outing. Contreras only had the normal 5 days and he pitched 7 innings with 4 ER (3 if the pen hadn't given up all those hits after he was pulled) which isn't too bad.

These guys need to step it up!! Put some fire in their eys. Locate pitches. Read the scouting reports. Stop walking batters and quit throwing meatballs down the heart of the plate with an 0-2 count.It has nothing whatever to do with rest. Throwing a baseball 90+ MPH is a very violent act. Add in the stress of putting spin on it to get it to break and it's very hard on shoulders and elbows. Do this every 5 days. The accumulated stresses and strains on the joint typically begin to show after about 20-25 starts, then they seem to get over it after a few weeks to a month.

The physiology is not well understood, but it's been observed for a long as pitchers have been throwing.

oeo
07-17-2006, 04:54 PM
How is he a troll if its true? This staff is extremly overrated...
I'm beginning to think you're a troll, as well. Is there anything you do like about this team...or does it all suck?

Yeah...they're overrated because they've struggled over the past few weeks. *****...

Sxy Mofo
07-17-2006, 05:08 PM
So a few bad months out of a career and suddenly guys like Buehrle and Garcia are overrated?

This makes no sense at all...:?:

I've never seen the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude as much as i've seen with some guys here.

Buehrle's been consistently solid for the last 6 years and I've seen statements that people are figuring him out. It took them 6 years? If he has indeed been "figured out" that's way too long to figure someone out. Buehrle's not hitting his spots and not keeping the ball down. That's his problem.

Chicken Dinner
07-17-2006, 05:19 PM
It has nothing whatever to do with rest. Throwing a baseball 90+ MPH is a very violent act. Add in the stress of putting spin on it to get it to break and it's very hard on shoulders and elbows. Do this every 5 days. The accumulated stresses and strains on the joint typically begin to show after about 20-25 starts, then they seem to get over it after a few weeks to a month.

The physiology is not well understood, but it's been observed for a long as pitchers have been throwing.

I still say it's location. If you consistantly leave the ball up in the zone, your going to get hammered and that's what's happening.

MarySwiss
07-17-2006, 05:25 PM
Yank tv announcer Michael Kay, ~ " Our reports have Garcia's fast ball 4mph slower than last yr."
Jim Kaat, ~ " He's a work horse, pitching all those innings in his career may have caught up with him."

Key words here:

Yank TV Announcer.

And: He's a work horse, pitching all those innings in his career may have caught up with him. Hmm, either he's a work horse or he isn't. Seems contradictory to me.

In any event, pardon me if I do not give a lot of credence to Yankee announcers, even if one is Jim Kaat.

Ol' No. 2
07-17-2006, 05:25 PM
I still say it's location. If you consistantly leave the ball up in the zone, your going to get hammered and that's what's happening.Duuuhhh!!!

And why is the location suddenly getting poor?

Daver
07-17-2006, 05:26 PM
Duuuhhh!!!

And why is the location suddenly getting poor?

Cause he needs glasses?

Ol' No. 2
07-17-2006, 05:28 PM
Cause he needs glasses?http://www.unsignedphotos.com/images/c04485.jpg Possibly.

goon
07-17-2006, 06:18 PM
most of them are off for different reasons.

buehrle - mislocating pitches, velocity is a little bit down, though not sure if that matters.
garcia - seriously missing velocity on his fastball which essentially sets up the rest of his pitches. he's forced to become a "control" pitcher and seems to keep the ball up too often in this new role.
vazquez - still has great stuff, just having trouble finishing guys off, tends to miss over the plate during the "big inning"

garland has begun to pitch inside and keep the ball down, which were two things he was not doing during his early struggles. it feels wrong for me to complain about contreras, but he has been a little off lately, mostly with his control. the only guy i'm truly worried about is garcia because it just simply looks like he doesn't have his "stuff".

Soxfanspcu11
07-17-2006, 06:46 PM
Overrated staff.

:?:

They are certainly not "overrated", they have the talent and potential, that has already been written and proven.

There is no way that a rotation who IMHO, is better than last year's with the addition of Vasquez, just suddenly "lost talent" and became "overrated".

What we are seeing right now is what many posters in this thread have eluded to, Fatigue and Confidence.

The fatigue leads to not being able to pitch to their capabilities, the resulting ERA's lead to lack of confidence, it's a viscious cycle and one that is difficult to just "snap" out of.

The best thing that this staff has going for them is experience. Our starting 5 is not a bunch of Tracey's and McCarthy's. These guys have been there and back and know what they are doing. Are they struggling? Of course they are, but it happens over 162 games. I seem to recall not only the pitching struggling, but the offense as well about 11 months ago, and it seemed to work out okay for us.

Overrated? Not a chance. Tired and frustrated? Likely yes. All that being said, I have nothing but confidence, not only in our starting 5, but in those pushing the buttons behind them (Guillen, Cooper, Williams).

We are in a slight rough patch right now, again, it happens over the course of a season. Stop freaking out! When we won 9 games in a row were you calling our staff UNDER-rated??

Cut these guys some slack, they have proven themselves. If they continue to pitch this way for the rest of the season, then I will issue you an apology, after which, I will ask you to buy my lottery tickets for me.

READ MY LIPS, EVERYTHING WILL BE OKAY!:smile:

Chips
07-17-2006, 06:52 PM
:?:

They are certainly not "overrated", they have the talent and potential, that has already been written and proven.

There is no way that a rotation who IMHO, is better than last year's with the addition of Vasquez, just suddenly "lost talent" and became "overrated".

What we are seeing right now is what many posters in this thread have eluded to, Fatigue and Confidence.

The fatigue leads to not being able to pitch to their capabilities, the resulting ERA's lead to lack of confidence, it's a viscious cycle and one that is difficult to just "snap" out of.

The best thing that this staff has going for them is experience. Our starting 5 is not a bunch of Tracey's and McCarthy's. These guys have been there and back and know what they are doing. Are they struggling? Of course they are, but it happens over 162 games. I seem to recall not only the pitching struggling, but the offense as well about 11 months ago, and it seemed to work out okay for us.

Overrated? Not a chance. Tired and frustrated? Likely yes. All that being said, I have nothing but confidence, not only in our starting 5, but in those pushing the buttons behind them (Guillen, Cooper, Williams).

We are in a slight rough patch right now, again, it happens over the course of a season. Stop freaking out! When we won 9 games in a row were you calling our staff UNDER-rated??

Cut these guys some slack, they have proven themselves. If they continue to pitch this way for the rest of the season, then I will issue you an apology, after which, I will ask you to buy my lottery tickets for me.

READ MY LIPS, EVERYTHING WILL BE OKAY!:smile:
:worship:
Took the words out right out my mouth. :D:

Paulwny
07-17-2006, 07:20 PM
Key words here:

Yank TV Announcer.

And: He's a work horse, pitching all those innings in his career may have caught up with him. Hmm, either he's a work horse or he isn't. Seems contradictory to me.

In any event, pardon me if I do not give a lot of credence to Yankee announcers, even if one is Jim Kaat.

I'd take what Kaat says over the 2 slugs doing the game on am 670.

Daver
07-17-2006, 07:30 PM
I'd take what Kaat says over the 2 slugs doing the game on am 670.

Me Too.

Brian26
07-17-2006, 07:33 PM
Me Too.

I agree. Kaat seriously rules. Anyone who says anything bad about him needs to get his head examined.

Pierzynski 12
07-17-2006, 07:49 PM
:?:

They are certainly not "overrated", they have the talent and potential, that has already been written and proven.

There is no way that a rotation who IMHO, is better than last year's with the addition of Vasquez, just suddenly "lost talent" and became "overrated".

What we are seeing right now is what many posters in this thread have eluded to, Fatigue and Confidence.

The fatigue leads to not being able to pitch to their capabilities, the resulting ERA's lead to lack of confidence, it's a viscious cycle and one that is difficult to just "snap" out of.

The best thing that this staff has going for them is experience. Our starting 5 is not a bunch of Tracey's and McCarthy's. These guys have been there and back and know what they are doing. Are they struggling? Of course they are, but it happens over 162 games. I seem to recall not only the pitching struggling, but the offense as well about 11 months ago, and it seemed to work out okay for us.

Overrated? Not a chance. Tired and frustrated? Likely yes. All that being said, I have nothing but confidence, not only in our starting 5, but in those pushing the buttons behind them (Guillen, Cooper, Williams).

We are in a slight rough patch right now, again, it happens over the course of a season. Stop freaking out! When we won 9 games in a row were you calling our staff UNDER-rated??

Cut these guys some slack, they have proven themselves. If they continue to pitch this way for the rest of the season, then I will issue you an apology, after which, I will ask you to buy my lottery tickets for me.

READ MY LIPS, EVERYTHING WILL BE OKAY!:smile:

To me, this staff was overhyped. Better?:redneck

Pierzynski 12
07-17-2006, 07:50 PM
I'd take what Kaat says over the 2 slugs doing the game on am 670.
Please.:rolleyes:

Brian26
07-17-2006, 08:10 PM
Please.:rolleyes:

Are you joking me? Chris Singleton is so clueless and uninformed that Farmer asked him the other day his opinion on the Reds/Nats trade, and Singleton did even know there was a trade. He even asked outloud if the Reds traded Dunn to Washington. Farmer had to cover for him by pretending he didn't know either. The trade was a day and a half old at that point.

Chips
07-17-2006, 08:17 PM
Please.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Those two are awful.

MISoxfan
07-17-2006, 08:25 PM
To me, this staff was overhyped. Better?:redneck

Career ERA

Buehrle 3.71
Garcia 4.02
Contreras 4.11
Vazques 4.33
Garland 4.52

Tigers
Verlander 3.21
Rogers 4.21
Robinson 4.58
Bonderman 4.72
Maroth 4.75

Yankees
Johnson 3.18
Mussina 3.63
Wang 4.01
Wright 5.09
Chacon 5.05

Red Sox
Schilling 3.40
Beckett 3.72
Wakefield 4.27
Clement 4.47
Johnson 4.98

Do you still think our staff is overrated? Find me a staff in the AL that you can honestly compare and say that's the staff I want for this season and next season. The only staff I would even consider is the Twins, but still no thanks Liriano hasn't proven anything yet and they are anchored by Lohse.

sox1970
07-17-2006, 08:29 PM
Career ERA

Buehrle 3.71
Garcia 4.02
Contreras 4.11
Vazques 4.33
Garland 4.52

Tigers
Verlander 3.21
Rogers 4.21
Robinson 4.58
Bonderman 4.72
Maroth 4.75

Yankees
Johnson 3.18
Mussina 3.63
Wang 4.01
Wright 5.09
Chacon 5.05

Red Sox
Schilling 3.40
Beckett 3.72
Wakefield 4.27
Clement 4.47
Johnson 4.98

Do you still think our staff is overrated? Find me a staff in the AL that you can honestly compare and say that's the staff I want for this season and next season. The only staff I would even consider is the Twins, but still no thanks Liriano hasn't proven anything yet and they are anchored by Lohse.

It's a "what have you done for me lately" business. As a whole, the starters have been in a slump for the last seven weeks.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2006, 09:03 PM
Jim Katt is one of the finest analysts around. When he and Ray Knight and Bill Robinson were the analysts on 'Baseball Tonight' that program was actually worth watching.

I totally agree...I'll listen to Katt over Singleton anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Lip

TheOldRoman
07-17-2006, 09:17 PM
How is he a troll if its true? This staff is extremly overrated... And the fact that you backed him up validates my assessment.
:dtroll:- StatTroll21
:dtroll:- Trollzynski12

kobo
07-17-2006, 09:32 PM
To me, this staff was overhyped. Better?:redneck
Overhyped? After looking at the career ERA numbers for the starters I'd have to disagree. None of the starters are power pitchers and never have been; it's all about location and control with them. The Sox still have one of the best starting rotations in all of baseball. Right now the big concerns are Garcia and Buehrle, and I agree with those who feel those 2 guys are going through a dead arm period. Just watch them pitch and you can clearly see that neither one of them have confidence and neither are hitting thier spots. I believe they can work through this but it is going to take a few weeks.

I think that if the Sox can take 2 or all 3 against the Tigers then they should give serious consideration to giving Garcia a 15 day break. I know it would weaken the bullpen during that time, but if it's going to help Garcia and get him back on track then I hope the Sox roll the dice.

spiffie
07-17-2006, 09:55 PM
This staff is not overrated as a whole. Expectations however were set ridiculously high in the media after the Vazquez trade. People were calling it the best 5-man rotation in the history of baseball which I think we all are seeing is just not the case.

I will say however people expected something out of Vazquez that there was no reason to believe he would provide. At this point in his career he is 3 years removed from being a front of the rotation sort of guy, he's on his 3rd team in as many years, and shows no signs of improvement back to his 2003 form. I think people thought we had traded for an ace when in fact we traded for a solid #4 or 5 starter who has a great record right now due to the fact the Sox are averaging nearly 10 runs per game when he pitches.

GoSox2K3
07-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Jim Katt is one of the finest analysts around. When he and Ray Knight and Bill Robinson were the analysts on 'Baseball Tonight' that program was actually worth watching.

I totally agree...I'll listen to Katt over Singleton anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Lip

Jim also won 20 games twice for the White Sox.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kaatji01.shtml

He had a long career - pitched from 1959 to 1983. So, he was in the league when the Sox won the pennant and was still around for the Winning Ugly team.:o:

Chips
07-17-2006, 10:38 PM
And the fact that you backed him up validates my assessment.
:dtroll:- StatTroll21
:dtroll:- Trollzynski12


No arguements here.