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View Full Version : Buehrle trouble?


Railsplitter
07-16-2006, 02:17 PM
Is something wrong with Mark Buehrle? He's been roughed up a lot lately. Is there is something wrong, is it his mechanics or is his arm bothering?

I

sox230
07-16-2006, 02:24 PM
I think there is also something wrong with Garcia, Vazquez and Garland

nsolo
07-16-2006, 02:36 PM
Is something wrong with Mark Buehrle? He's been roughed up a lot lately. Is there is something wrong, is it his mechanics or is his arm bothering?

I

I don't know the cause, but its widely recognized that he's leaving too many pitches high in the strike zone.

Buehrle, as known by most hitters within the league, like to throw first pitch strikes. If he can get it down in the strike zone by hitting his spots, the strike zone expands in the mind of the hitter. This allows Mark to change speeds and angles with various picthes.

What seems to be happening is that the batters are teeing off on the first pitch which more times than not are in their wheel house.

I haven't heard of any arm trouble, so based on the choices you offer, I'd say its mechanics. Earlier in the year, it was discovered that Buehrle was tipping his pitches, but when I brought that up in another thread, the comment was meet with less than positive input.

Greg1983
07-16-2006, 04:31 PM
I've read or heard Mark say that he feels 100% in two or three different places lately. Granted, most pitchers and athletes in general will be tight-lipped about injuries, but I tend to think health is not a factor here.

My biggest concern is just that the AL has "figured him out," the way they figured out Shingo. I know that's perhaps not a perfect analogy, comparing a one-year relief phenom to a veteran starter. But Mark has never had dominating stuff, just pinpoint control. He seems like the kind of guy good hitters would catch up to.

I'm the first to admit that I'm probably being paranoid here, but I sure don't see much in his performance over the last month or so that alleviates my paranoia.

TornLabrum
07-16-2006, 04:58 PM
Buehrle's pitches are coming in high, as pointed out by Buck and McCarver yesterday. They were actually right. He's got to get the ball down more than he has been.

BanditJimmy
07-16-2006, 05:04 PM
Teams have indeed sort of figured Mark out. In addition to his pitches being up, hitter are now attacking first pitch from Buehrle because they know he is exclusively 1st pitch strike all the time. Also just like Garcia, Buehrle has lost velocity on his fast ball. He tops out right now at about 86 compared to last year where he could get it there at 89. 86 is not a problem as long as you keep the ball down. Buehrle is keeping 86 up and it is getting hard.

SOXSINCE'70
07-16-2006, 05:51 PM
Buck and McCarver . They were actually right.

Well,what do you know?? 2 blind squirrels actually found an acorn.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

rowand33
07-16-2006, 05:54 PM
My biggest concern is just that the AL has "figured him out," the way they figured out Shingo.

sigh...

Shingo was not "figured out"

He just stopped throwing strikes. Shingo's problem was much more a confidence issue than being figured out.

QCIASOXFAN
07-16-2006, 06:15 PM
Buehrle's pitches are coming in high, as pointed out by Buck and McCarver yesterday. They were actually right. He's got to get the ball down more than he has been.Exactly, when he gets the ball up and doesn't locate well hes going to get hit hard every time.

Huisj
07-16-2006, 06:19 PM
Also, when was the last time he threw a good cutter inside that broke a bat?

I agree with everyone else. He's leaving the ball up up up and then trying to go away away away. No location for the last month at all.

Sox-o-matic
07-16-2006, 06:25 PM
I've read or heard Mark say that he feels 100% in two or three different places lately. Granted, most pitchers and athletes in general will be tight-lipped about injuries, but I tend to think health is not a factor here.

My biggest concern is just that the AL has "figured him out," the way they figured out Shingo. I know that's perhaps not a perfect analogy, comparing a one-year relief phenom to a veteran starter. But Mark has never had dominating stuff, just pinpoint control. He seems like the kind of guy good hitters would catch up to.

I'm the first to admit that I'm probably being paranoid here, but I sure don't see much in his performance over the last month or so that alleviates my paranoia.

Mark has been in the majors for six years now. If something was there to figure out, it would have happened long before now.

Maybe his release point is off a bit? He's been up, but he's also been outside, outside, outside all season. When he does that he gets taken to right field over and over, and when he combines that with pitching up in the zone he gets hurt even more.

I don't know why our catchers call for that outside pitch so much, but it has been killing us. Hopefully Garland keeps doing what he's been doing and sets an example for the entire roation.

batmanZoSo
07-16-2006, 06:29 PM
If you throw me enough 86 mph fastballs up in the zone I'll end up taking one out. Him and Garland both have forgotten how to locate and pitch inside effectively and neither are going to blow you away. But Buehrle especially can't afford to do that because he just gets shellacked. He's always had the one game or two a year where he leaves everything up and just gets hit like he's throwing BP. Lately it's been every start.

SoxEd
07-16-2006, 06:41 PM
Well,what do you know?? 2 blind squirrels actually found an acorn.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Even a stopped-clock tells the right time twice a day.
:wink:

On the subject of MB's first pitches being 'jumped on' by hitters, surely if that were consistently happening, AJ or Coop would already have told him to throw out of the zone to get a swinging strike on first pitch in order to get ahead in the count?
(i.e. MB would have adjusted his 'strategy'.)

If it's a case of his having 'lost' his mechanics, then I'd guess that Coop would have spotted it already, and thus, if it IS happening, I'd surmise that its consistent occurrence would be down to him carrying a minor injury niggle - e.g. strained adductor muscle, sore shoulder etc.

Minor niggles that are not serious enough to place Cricket bowlers 'on the DL' will often mean that they subconsciously adjust their actions to minimise wear and tear on the affected body part.

In that scenario, the solution would, of course, be to put on him the 15-day DL in the hope that the minor niggle heals, and 'promote' FOAB from the 'pen to fill in for him in the meantime.

I have to say that I lean toward this explanation, as you'd expect Coop to be able to straighten-out any variation in his mechanics - especially given that #56 is a seasoned veteran player.

It would also seem likely to me that he'd want to continue playing whilst he's carrying any minor injury, in order not to put pressure on our already-stretched bullpen.

If my cockamamie idea IS right, then I hope they DO put him on the 15-day DL soon, as it would seem that even Herm Schneider has hitherto been unable to fix whatever ails Mark without a lay-off period.

kitekrazy
07-16-2006, 06:58 PM
Maybe he's just in a slump. I don't think slumps are only for hitters.

JB98
07-16-2006, 08:47 PM
Also, when was the last time he threw a good cutter inside that broke a bat?

I agree with everyone else. He's leaving the ball up up up and then trying to go away away away. No location for the last month at all.

Your rhetorical question about the cutter hits the nail on the head, IMO. The cutter is Mark's best pitch, but for some reason, he's lost command of it. He has to come hard inside with that cutter in order to set up the soft stuff away. For whatever reason, he is no longer pitching inside. Everything is out over the plate and up. That's a poor combination for a finesse pitcher.

A lot of people here blame Mark's troubles on Widger's pitch-calling. Well, AJ was catching yesterday, and he caught the debacle against the Cubs as well. It doesn't matter what number the catcher puts down if the pitcher can't execute the pitch.

The posters who think Mark's velocity is down are full of ****. Mark can hit 89 if he really reaches back, but he's never been a guy that's thrown much harder than 86 through the years. Some of you have been reading too much Cubune propaganda about various pitchers' velocity being down. Mark has never relied on his velocity anyway, so that is a non-issue with me. Maybe it's an issue for Freddy, but not for Mark.

KMKsuburbannoise
07-17-2006, 10:52 AM
people people...I don't think we should worry. All pitchers go through hard times. He will break out of this

viagracat
07-17-2006, 11:05 AM
Buehrle himself said he's feeling fine; that he's just sucked lately. No excuses.

I agree with some of the others that he's gotten too many of his first pitches up, and hitters know he likes to throw first-pitch strikes. You may as well be tipping your pitches if you do that.

There was some speculation that he was tipping his pitches actually, but I don't know how valid that is.

For now, he's the starter I'm least concerned about. I hope I don't have to change my mind. We need him.

sox1970
07-17-2006, 11:20 AM
If Buehrle has a dead arm but says he's feeling fine, he needs to break out of it now. There is no time to say he'll break out of it. By the time he actually does, the Sox could be in third place in the division.

By the way, I'm not dismissing the Sox and saying they won't make the playoffs. They still have the opportunity and the track record to make the playoffs, even win the division. But this isn't brain surgery--you need solid starting pitching to win games against good teams. 15 quality starts in the last 41 games? I hope they turn it around, but if they only have 15 quality starts in the next 41 games, they will be in third place in the division. They simply cannot bash their way to a playoff spot. It's not going to happen.

TheOldRoman
07-17-2006, 11:28 AM
sigh...

Shingo was not "figured out"

He just stopped throwing strikes. Shingo's problem was much more a confidence issue than being figured out.
THANK YOU.

I am sick and tired of all the people who talk about Shingo getting figured out. Most of the talk is from Cubs clowns, bragging how they "called it". One moron was upset about the frisbee "Hawk is a moron, it isn't a frisbee - it is a hanging breaking ball. Every time he throws it it gets hit 500 feet.":rolleyes:
Shingo was not figured out. He lost controll of his pitches. He was very good when he got ahead in the count, but when you are 2-0, you know a fastball is coming. If that fastball is 86 MHP, you are going to hit it hard. That is all it comes down to.

MVP
07-17-2006, 03:50 PM
IMHO he's definitely been figured out. I've noticed that he hitters are trying to hit the ball up the middle and towards the opposite field against him a lot more than ever before. They are also swinging at the first pitch knowing that it will be a strike in the middle of the plate or away. Buehrle needs to re-establish the inside corner of the plate very early in the count and to entice these hitter to try to pull him. He also needs to put some of these hitters on their backs every now and then to keep them from reaching the outside pitch.

rowand33
07-17-2006, 08:24 PM
THANK YOU.

I am sick and tired of all the people who talk about Shingo getting figured out. Most of the talk is from Cubs clowns, bragging how they "called it". One moron was upset about the frisbee "Hawk is a moron, it isn't a frisbee - it is a hanging breaking ball. Every time he throws it it gets hit 500 feet.":rolleyes:
Shingo was not figured out. He lost controll of his pitches. He was very good when he got ahead in the count, but when you are 2-0, you know a fastball is coming. If that fastball is 86 MHP, you are going to hit it hard. That is all it comes down to.

oh I know exactly what you mean. It infuriates me when people say that. Because you're right, it's usually some smug bastard that's like "yeah, well, everybody knew Shingo would get figured out"

and y'know, if people actually watched the games they would know what actually happened.

Pierzynski 12
07-17-2006, 08:55 PM
Someone must be stealing signs again.

chisox59
07-17-2006, 09:58 PM
He also needs to put some of these hitters on their backs every now and then to keep them from reaching the outside pitch.

I totally agree with this statement and several of my friends have said the same. He needs to let hitters know that they're not at liberty to dive over the plate to hit his first pitch because that pitch may wind up in their ear. Back them off the plate and you can regain that outside corner. It makes me wonder if hitting Travis Hafner last year has left an effect on him.

TheOldRoman
07-17-2006, 10:12 PM
Someone must be stealing signs again.
That is the second trollish comment you have made today. Keep up the good work.
:dtroll:

rdwj
07-18-2006, 09:53 AM
I think there is also something wrong with Garcia, Vazquez and Garland

i don't know if you actually watch games or not, but Garland has been our best starter over the past month.

Pierzynski 12
07-18-2006, 10:43 AM
That is the second trollish comment you have made today. Keep up the good work.
:dtroll:


I've done nothing wrong. I'm not a troll. So grow up.

TornLabrum
07-18-2006, 10:53 AM
I've done nothing wrong. I'm not a troll. So grow up.

Time for an intervention. Pierzynski, I think you probably meant the comment that caused this to be in teal, unless you were being serious, in which case it was trollish.

Roman, let the mods do their jobs. We don't need your (or anyone else's) help in spotting trolls. We can do it perfectly well ourselves.

jongarlandlover
07-18-2006, 10:51 PM
i don't know if you actually watch games or not, but Garland has been our best starter over the past month.
thank you!

he has definitely been the best starter over the past month. garcia and vazquez need to get their acts together - but jon? nooooo. not at all.

BadBobbyJenks
07-18-2006, 10:55 PM
i don't know if you actually watch games or not, but Garland has been our best starter over the past month.


Seriously, all the people still bashing Garland have they watched any of his last 6 starts, or did they all just tune in for his relief apperance against the bosox. The guy has been lights out for a month, give it a ****ing rest

FarWestChicago
07-18-2006, 10:59 PM
Seriously, all the people still bashing Garland have they watched any of his last 6 starts, or did they all just tune in for his relief apperance against the bosox. The guy has been lights out for a month, give it a ****ing restIn case you hadn't noticed, WSI is the single best source for debunking the myth that the Sox have intelligent fans. :o:

JB98
07-18-2006, 11:17 PM
In case you hadn't noticed, WSI is the single best source for debunking the myth that the Sox have intelligent fans. :o:

Some of them want to trade Josh Fields for Scott Eyre and Henry Blanco. 'Nuff said. :D:

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2006, 03:22 AM
In case you hadn't noticed, WSI is the single best source for debunking the myth that the Sox have intelligent fans. :o:


I like you much better when we are not butting heads...