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Jjav829
07-15-2006, 06:31 PM
So I happened to catch a little of the Braves-Padres game that went to extra innings last night. Entertaining game in that each team kept coming back. Anyways, both the Padres and Braves blew leads in the 9th inning before going to extra innings. Sometime in extra innings, Skip Caray comes up with this brilliant thought...

"I wonder if any reliever has ever blown two saves in one game before."

:?::o::?:...was my initial reaction. Chip was also in the booth and chose to say nothing, probably not wanting to correct his father.

The next inning (sometime around the 11th/12th) after they came back from commercial, Skip informs the audience that their statistician told him it isn't possible, and he proceeds to say, "but I don't know why." :o::o::o:

Ok, now I can understand if a couple people on the boards here maybe don't understand why this is possible, but I would think a broadcaster should understand that once a reliever blows a save, he is the pitcher of record and thus can no longer have a save situation. I was literally smacking my forehead and laughing while listening to this. It was funny and stupid at the same time.

The Racehorse
07-15-2006, 06:41 PM
LOL... it took me a moment to orient the scenario in my brain so I wouldn't forget anything... I guess ole Skip had the same problem... times 1000. :D:

SOXintheBURGH
07-15-2006, 07:12 PM
Thats marvelous.

He actually had to contact a stathead to confirm this for him?

friarhky22
07-15-2006, 09:33 PM
I have no idea if this rule translates to the MLB, but from high school playing experience it IS possible for one pitcher to have 2 blown saves in a HS game.

According to IHSA rules, if a pitcher is removed but stays in the field (ie moves to shortstop), he is able to pitch again at a later point. So in high school, one could blow a save, be placed at a different position, have his team retake the lead, and then go back to the mound to blow a second save opportunity.

batmanZoSo
07-15-2006, 11:09 PM
So I happened to catch a little of the Braves-Padres game that went to extra innings last night. Entertaining game in that each team kept coming back. Anyways, both the Padres and Braves blew leads in the 9th inning before going to extra innings. Sometime in extra innings, Skip Caray comes up with this brilliant thought...

"I wonder if any reliever has ever blown two saves in one game before."

:?::o::?:...was my initial reaction. Chip was also in the booth and chose to say nothing, probably not wanting to correct his father.

The next inning (sometime around the 11th/12th) after they came back from commercial, Skip informs the audience that their statistician told him it isn't possible, and he proceeds to say, "but I don't know why." :o::o::o:

Ok, now I can understand if a couple people on the boards here maybe don't understand why this is possible, but I would think a broadcaster should understand that once a reliever blows a save, he is the pitcher of record and thus can no longer have a save situation. I was literally smacking my forehead and laughing while listening to this. It was funny and stupid at the same time.

Technical aspects aside, are there any examples of a reliever "blowing two saves" where he blows it in the 9th and then maybe again in the 12th? He won't get two blown saves on his baseball card, but he really did blow twice.

If we're looking for a precedent, probably look no further than..

:bkoch:
Shut up.

Oblong
07-15-2006, 11:32 PM
It is possible for the reasons mentioned above. Pitcher comes in, blows the save, gets moved to RF for another pitcher, team takes the lead, pitcher comes back to the mound, gives up the lead again.

Now is Blown Saves an official stat? Maybe that's where the statistician was coming from. Obviously only one can be given per game or else it would be possible for two players to get a blown save.

But if you are thinking of blown save in terms of nothing more than giving up the lead in a save situation then it is possible but obviously not likely to ever happen.

I remember Hersisher getting moved to RF during the playoffs in '88.

Johnny74
07-16-2006, 12:41 AM
Can a pitcher be moved to another position and then be put back in the pitchers spot? In the movie "THe Kid From Left Field" (the original from the 1950s) they put the pitcher in the 3rd base position because he has trouble with left handers and then when a right handed batter comes up they move him back to the pitching spot. It was great in the movie but can it really be done in the majors?

TornLabrum
07-16-2006, 12:52 AM
Can a pitcher be moved to another position and then be put back in the pitchers spot? In the movie "THe Kid From Left Field" (the original from the 1950s) they put the pitcher in the 3rd base position because he has trouble with left handers and then when a right handed batter comes up they move him back to the pitching spot. It was great in the movie but can it really be done in the majors?

Paul Richards did something very similar to that with Billy Pierce (iirc) in the '50s. Moved Pierce to another position, brought in a relief pitcher for one batter, and then moved Pierce back to the mound.

TDog
07-16-2006, 02:55 AM
Paul Richards did something very similar to that with Billy Pierce (iirc) in the '50s. Moved Pierce to another position, brought in a relief pitcher for one batter, and then moved Pierce back to the mound.

Cleveland put Sam McDowell at second base for a hitter in 1970 and he recorded a putout. I'm not sure if that was the last out of the game, but the intent was not to take out McDowell. He also played first base that season and had no fielding chances, so I'm sure it was the same situation. An AL team would lose the DH if it did that today. You could see it in the NL.

I think Skip Caray was talking about the possibility of a relief pitcher blowing a save, seeing his team retake the lead and blowing that. Of course, the second blown lead is not a blown save because the pitcher would have been in line for the win. For a pitcher to blow a save opportunity, he would have to be pitching in relief as early as the 6th inning, be ahead in the game by the requisite margin and not be the pitcher of record. Say he comes in with the bases loaded, up by 1, allows 2 inherited runners to score, he has blown the save, but he isn't the pitcher of record. If the manager puts him in left field for another reliever to come into the game (maybe the left fielder comes into the game to pitch), in order for him to blow the second save, his team must retake the lead after he is gone but before he returns. I have never heard of a reliever staying in a game and playing another position in professional baseball. I've only heard of it happening with starters.

It's possible, although not the way MLB baseball is played today.

There is no limit, of course to the number of saves a team can blow in a game.

Edit: I Looked up the game I was thinking of: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B07060CLE1970.htm

On July 6, 1970, Sam McDowell came out with 2 out in the 8th. Dean Chance got Rick Reichardt to hit into a force play, with the out going to second. McDowell returned to the mound in the 9th to get the incomplete-game win against the Washington Senators.

chaerulez
07-16-2006, 11:54 AM
I have no idea if this rule translates to the MLB, but from high school playing experience it IS possible for one pitcher to have 2 blown saves in a HS game.

According to IHSA rules, if a pitcher is removed but stays in the field (ie moves to shortstop), he is able to pitch again at a later point. So in high school, one could blow a save, be placed at a different position, have his team retake the lead, and then go back to the mound to blow a second save opportunity.

I think that does translate into MLB. After all the pitcher is just a position just like any other. If someone can play 2B one inning, move to 3B, and back to 2B in the next two innings, I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed for pitchers.

RKMeibalane
07-16-2006, 12:18 PM
Paul Richards did something very similar to that with Billy Pierce (iirc) in the '50s. Moved Pierce to another position, brought in a relief pitcher for one batter, and then moved Pierce back to the mound.

This also happened in 1986 in a game between the Mets and Reds. Several players were ejected following a brawl started by Ray Knight and Eric Davis. Mets manager Davey Johnson used Jesse Orosco and Roger McDowell in relief to get the victory, with Orosco actually being credited for both a win and a save.

Brian26
07-16-2006, 12:22 PM
This also happened in 1986 in a game between the Mets and Reds. Several players were ejected following a brawl started by Ray Knight and Eric Davis. Mets manager Davey Johnson used Jesse Orosco and Roger McDowell in relief to get the victory, with Orosco actually being credited for both a win and a save.

Now hold on a second...isn't one of the prerequisites of earning a save that you are not the winning pitcher of record?

Brian26
07-16-2006, 12:24 PM
A pitcher can earn a save by completing ALL three of the following items:1. Finishes the game won by his team.
2. Does not receive the win.
3. Meets one of the following three items:
a: Enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches at least one inning.
b: Enters the game with the tying run either on base, at bat, or on deck.
c: Pitches effectively for at least three innings.

RKMeibalane
07-16-2006, 12:27 PM
Now hold on a second...isn't one of the prerequisites of earning a save that you are not the winning pitcher of record?

Edit: Actually, as it turns out, no save was credited to either pitcher in the game. McDowell got the win to improve his record to 8-4.

Brian26
07-16-2006, 12:28 PM
Can a pitcher be moved to another position and then be put back in the pitchers spot? In the movie "THe Kid From Left Field" (the original from the 1950s) they put the pitcher in the 3rd base position because he has trouble with left handers and then when a right handed batter comes up they move him back to the pitching spot. It was great in the movie but can it really be done in the majors?

You could do this in the majors, but how many times would you really be able to do it in a game without burning through your bench? Every time that pitcher has to go back to the mound from third, you have to bring someone in to replace him. You might be able to do this twice in a game at the most.

Brian26
07-16-2006, 12:30 PM
What happened was that Orosco was pitching when the Mets took the lead, and then McDowell came in for a few innings. Orosco returned to the mound later, with McDowell moving to LF, and picked up the save.

I'll double-check with Retrosheet to be sure, however.

It's a great story no matter what happened (Orosco and McDowell taking turns in the outfield). The only game I remember from this era with the Mets was that July 4th game against the Braves in Atlanta that went to 3 or 4am, and when the game finally ended, they shot off the 4th of July fireworks...maybe around 1985 or 1987.

RKMeibalane
07-16-2006, 12:32 PM
It's a great story no matter what happened (Orosco and McDowell taking turns in the outfield). The only game I remember from this era with the Mets was that July 4th game against the Braves in Atlanta that went to 3 or 4am, and when the game finally ended, they shot off the 4th of July fireworks...maybe around 1985 or 1987.

Here's the actual boxscore. That game was a mess.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B07220CIN1986.htm

SBSoxFan
07-16-2006, 12:38 PM
Here's the actual boxscore. That game was a mess.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B07220CIN1986.htm
So when they write the boxscore, do they just list the pitcher once and his total innings?

Sisk (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Psiskd001.htm) 2 1 0 0 1 0 0
Orosco (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Porosj001.htm) 2 3 0 0 0 3 0
McDowell (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pmcdor001.htm) W(8-4) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0

Instead of something like

Sisk 2
McDowell 2
Orosco 2
McDowell 1

???

RKMeibalane
07-16-2006, 12:41 PM
So when they write the boxscore, do they just list the pitcher once and his total innings?

Sisk (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Psiskd001.htm) 2 1 0 0 1 0 0
Orosco (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Porosj001.htm) 2 3 0 0 0 3 0
McDowell (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pmcdor001.htm) W(8-4) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0

Instead of something like

Sisk 2
McDowell 2
Orosco 2
McDowell 1

???

It looks that way. The game log at the bottom of the page will show the actual sequence of events.

Brian26
07-16-2006, 12:52 PM
At one point, the Mets had Orosco and McDowell batting in the lineup next to each other. Look at the top of the 12th:

REDS 11TH: Perez singled to center; Oester out on a sacrifice
bunt (third to second) [Perez to second]; Butera grounded out
(third to first); OROSCO CHANGED POSITIONS (PITCHING); MCDOWELL
CHANGED POSITIONS (PLAYING RF); Venable struck out; 0 R, 1 H, 0
E, 1 LOB. Mets 3, Reds 3.

METS 12TH: Orosco grounded out (second to first); McDowell
grounded out (shortstop to first); Johnson made an out to left;
0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Mets 3, Reds 3.

SBSoxFan
07-16-2006, 01:05 PM
It looks that way. The game log at the bottom of the page will show the actual sequence of events.

Oh, I didn't look at the game log. :redface:

downstairs
07-16-2006, 02:10 PM
You could do this in the majors, but how many times would you really be able to do it in a game without burning through your bench? Every time that pitcher has to go back to the mound from third, you have to bring someone in to replace him. You might be able to do this twice in a game at the most.

Well, the key would be to use two pitchers only... keep trading them back and forth between pitcher and another position.

The problem is that unless you're only doing this for one or a few innings, you'd have two pitchers in your line up.

However, I have always wondered why teams don't do this more often. Not every game... but there are situations late in a game where a reliever is brought in for one hitter (mostly because of righty/lefty matchups).

Why not move him to another position after that batter, allowing him to pitch again if a similar good matchup came about?


BTW... during the 19 inning Boston game, I really thought Ozzie should have done something like that so he didn't lose all of hit pitchers. Keep Vasquez or another starter (who could go a lot of innings) in the outfield just in case...

32nd&Wallace
07-16-2006, 03:51 PM
What about Sutter in that game against Sandberg in 1984? I think that is an example of what Skip is talking about. Sutter came in the 9th to save it, Sandberg tied it, Cardinals took the lead in the 10th and Sandberg hit another homerun off Sutter in the 11th, to tie it again. I think that's what happened.

TDog
07-16-2006, 04:34 PM
What about Sutter in that game against Sandberg in 1984? I think that is an example of what Skip is talking about. Sutter came in the 9th to save it, Sandberg tied it, Cardinals took the lead in the 10th and Sandberg hit another homerun off Sutter in the 11th, to tie it again. I think that's what happened.

When Sutter blew the first lead, he became the pitcher of record. You cannot get a save if you are the pitcher of record. Even if you traded places with another player during the game, left with the lead, had middle relief hold it and came back to record the final out, you are not eligible for a save.

In the 1970 game involving Sam McDowell, he could have gotten both win and save if the rules would allow it, but they specifically don't. The save rule has only been around since the end of the '60s (when getting the last out in a 10-2 game would have earned a save), but it has always required the pitcher get the last out and not be the pitcher of record.

Blown leads is another story, and Skip Caray should know better.

The Mets game involving Roger McDowell and Jessie Orozco was interesting. I missed that because I ignore the National League.