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Whitesox4ever
07-14-2006, 06:05 AM
from the NY Dailynews



The White Sox have been calling around to clubs - including the Mets - letting it be known that Javier Vazquez or Freddy Garcia would be available. The price: top-notch relief help, which would allow the Sox to fortify their bullpen leading to closer Bobby Jenks, sources told the Daily News. Chicago has 23-year-old Brandon McCarthy ready to step into its rotation.
The Phillies, also looking to add to their rotation in a thin market, are willing to give up closer Tom Gordon in a deal with the Sox, according to a source


deal for either White Sox starter would seem to have to include Duaner Sanchez or Aaron Heilman, the primary setup men to Billy Wagner.

veeter
07-14-2006, 06:14 AM
I would think Kenny and Ozzie would want it to be Javy.

2005gosoxgo
07-14-2006, 06:41 AM
It looks like Mc Carthy will be pitching out of the 5 spot real soon.

http://www.nydailynews.com/07-14-2006/sports/baseball/story/434979p-366496c.html

PeteWard
07-14-2006, 06:54 AM
God I hope it's not Freddy: I think he will be very tough in the 2nd half and I'd hate to see him in the WS!:o: Coop will have him back in shape soon.

As for Vaz--they can have him if it solidifies the bullpen.:cool:

2005gosoxgo
07-14-2006, 06:59 AM
Yeah , I wouldnt mind giving up Vaz for Aaron Heilman or Duaner Sanchez... The article even talks of Vaz for Tom Gordon.. I'd like that a lot and it would give McCarthy the shot on the rotation he deserves.

PeteWard
07-14-2006, 07:44 AM
Yeah , I wouldnt mind giving up Vaz for Aaron Heilman or Duaner Sanchez... The article even talks of Vaz for Tom Gordon.. I'd like that a lot and it would give McCarthy the shot on the rotation he deserves.

I'd love to have Gordon back too, but not for FG!!!

jenn2080
07-14-2006, 07:45 AM
Ill take Freddy thank you. Send Vazquez.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 07:54 AM
The Sox should get more than a set-up man for one of its starters.

PushnThaEscalade
07-14-2006, 07:55 AM
This move makes no sense, at least right now. I really don't think Kenny's doing this.

EDIT: come on, it's KW, do you really think he's actually going to deal one of our starters to a team he might see in the World Series? no.

itsnotrequired
07-14-2006, 07:56 AM
The Sox should get more than a set-up man for one of its starters.

Don't worry, they will...

The Immigrant
07-14-2006, 08:00 AM
The Sox should get more than a set-up man for one of its starters.

Especially considering how much we gave up to get Vazquez.

We keep hearing how virtually every team is desperate for more starting pitching, particularly in the NL (Mets, Cardinals, Phillies, etc.), so let's see how desperate they really are. If the Mets are to have any hope of beating the Astros in a 5 game series, they need another top 3 starter to go with Glavine and (fragile) Pedro. The Sox are dealing from a position of strength in this situation, and I trust that Kenny will wait to make a deal in the offseason rather than accepting a pittance now.

2005gosoxgo
07-14-2006, 08:08 AM
I can see how rushing it could be a mistake, since the Sox have the starting pitching and can play the waiting game. Playing chicken too long can be costly too if other teams trade good talent to snatch the quality relievers up under our noses. I trust Kenny 100%. He molded the team into a champion, I will just sit back and enjoy.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 08:11 AM
I agree with all of the above. If we are willing to trade a starter, then we're in the catbird seat and let them come to us with offers. I'm not sure who'd I'd prefer to trade - garcia or vaz - tough call.

We did pay a heavy price for Vaz, but that's history. If we can get something good for him or if he can start pitching well, then that's a plus. Had we not done the deal, we still wouldn't have a real set-up man.

dickallen15
07-14-2006, 08:27 AM
God I hope it's not Freddy: I think he will be very tough in the 2nd half and I'd hate to see him in the WS!:o: Coop will have him back in shape soon.

As for Vaz--they can have him if it solidifies the bullpen.:cool:

If Coop doesn't have him pitching well now with his new 86 mph fastball, chances are he won't have that 86 mph heater in shape for the playoffs. Vazquez also has been bad, but I think KW gave up too much for him to deal him after half a season. Wasn't the reason given that Vazquez struggled with the Yankees the fact that he couldn't handle NY? Last time I checked, thats where the Mets play. I do have a feeling that if KW deals one of his starters for middle relief and maybe a prospect or 2, he most likely has another deal to go along with it.

wulfy
07-14-2006, 08:28 AM
I'd like to wait a little while to get a better feel for Hermanson before trading one of our starters away. If the Herminator can come in and produce at 90% of the level he was at before he got hurt, the bullpen will be fine.

dickallen15
07-14-2006, 08:30 AM
I'd like to wait a little while to get a better feel for Hermanson before trading one of our starters away. If the Herminator can come in and produce at 90% of the level he was at before he got hurt, the bullpen will be fine.

You can't count on Hermanson. Even if he pitches well for a week, his back can go out at anytime, and most likely will go out at some point. He can mop up. The Sox could really use another guy who can get someone out late. Now may be the time to deal a starter. If what Cincinatti gave up to get average bullpen help is any indication, KW should be able to bring back a king's ransom for an underachieving starter.

Fake Chet Lemon
07-14-2006, 08:39 AM
With all the off-days in the second half I thought I read somewhere that Kenny said a 4-man rotation was possible for much of the second half. If true, moving a starter for help makes a lot of sense.

Kenny may have to move a starter to free up some payroll for another move too. The sell-outs are great, but every payroll has it's constraints.

TornLabrum
07-14-2006, 08:40 AM
Does the Tribune Co. still own the New York Daily News?

kwolf68
07-14-2006, 08:46 AM
No way on the planet would I ever trade Freddie instead of Vazquez.

Vazquez can't ever be counted on. He has a good arm with good stuff, but he isn't mentally tough enough to pitch us to a 1-0 win in a World Series, in this or another life time.

Garcia has proven his goods...and we'd be fools to trade him unless the Mets blew us away, and a freaking setup man ain't gonna do it.

DumpJerry
07-14-2006, 08:48 AM
Freddy is family, he can't be traded. Vaz has a big contract which is being paid by the Spanks and D-Backs. I can see KW trading Vaz for a bullpen guy and a promise to roll over for us in the World Series.

Kogs35
07-14-2006, 08:56 AM
Does the Tribune Co. still own the New York Daily News?

i thought they owned newsday

SkeetSkeetAmit
07-14-2006, 08:59 AM
We better get more than just a relief for Vaz if he is traded.

However, look at the genius of KW. He knows McCarthy can be a starting pitcher. He had confidence and success at the end of last year. This year he was put in the bullpen. Since the beginning of the season, I have seen much improvement and confidence built in McCarthy for relief. Now, if a pitcher gets traded, he steps onto the mound in the 2nd half as a SP with confidence. In the playoffs, McCarthy goes to the bullpen and comes in the game in a tough situation, but with confidence because he had just played 1/2 a season coming in from relief. What a guy!

mccoydp
07-14-2006, 09:05 AM
No way on the planet would I ever trade Freddie instead of Vazquez.

Vazquez can't ever be counted on. He has a good arm with good stuff, but he isn't mentally tough enough to pitch us to a 1-0 win in a World Series, in this or another life time.

Garcia has proven his goods...and we'd be fools to trade him unless the Mets blew us away, and a freaking setup man ain't gonna do it.

No way Vazquez starts a game in the WS...he'd be in the bullpen, like El Duque last year.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 09:10 AM
I agree with all of the above. If we are willing to trade a starter, then we're in the catbird seat and let them come to us with offers. I'm not sure who'd I'd prefer to trade - garcia or vaz - tough call.

We did pay a heavy price for Vaz, but that's history. If we can get something good for him or if he can start pitching well, then that's a plus. Had we not done the deal, we still wouldn't have a real set-up man.What, exactly, is a catbird seat?:o:

My choice would be to trade Freddy. He's not the same pitcher since he went to primarily off-speed stuff. He was much more effective when he mixed in more fastballs and hard sliders, but for some reason, he's decided to morph into Jamie Moyer. Vazquez has struggled lately, but remember the Vazquez who threw two straight games of 6+ perfect innings this spring. I think we'll see him again.

Lots of people were critical of KW in getting Vazquez last winter when they already had McCarthy, but I think it may have been the plan all along to stockpile starters to put them in a good trading position now. I'm sure any of the Sox starters will bring plenty in return. Good starting pitching is the most valuable baseball commodity there is.

Plus, Kenny expressed doubts about whether McCarthy could pitch the 220+ innings that would be necessary, and that doubt is not unfounded. Between AAA and the Sox, McCarthy pitched only about 180 innings last season. By letting McCarthy pitch the first half the season out of the bullpen, he's set him up to be strong in the second half. Kenny has played this perfectly.

soxtalker
07-14-2006, 09:11 AM
Most of the comments so far have focused on the pitchers on our side. Do any of you have knowledge/comments on the relievers we might get from the Mets or Phillies?

I tried scouting several Met-fan boards (looking at the list (http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35831) compiled on a Marlins board). I got the sense that the fans are quite willing to see Heilman go, but that he really wants to be a starter. Also, there were some arguments that Garcia/Vazquez might do better with the Mets (than their Sox ERA's would indicate) because of (a) poorer hitting in National league (e.g., no DH) and (b) pitching in a home ballpark that is less prone to HR. Those were interesting thoughts, as they could drive up value of Garcia/Vazquez.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 09:13 AM
I don't care if in Freddy's next start he gives up nine runs over two innings because it doesn't change the fact that he is a big game pitcher. His postseason record more than speaks for itself and if there is any single pitcher on this staff that bears down more in a tight game than Freddy let me know. He is a gamer and should be re-signed, with lost velocity on his fastball or not.

Javier is an interesting move if we get the right players. We gave up Chris Young and a decent back of the bullpen arm in Vizcaino for this guy, so Kenny had better get something very, very good. If not, I'd rather see him give up a few decent prospects not named Fields or Sweeney for a set up man and trade Javy in the offseason if he still hasn't improved.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 09:16 AM
What, exactly, is a catbird seat?:o:

My choice would be to trade Freddy. He's not the same pitcher since he went to primarily off-speed stuff. He was much more effective when he mixed in more fastballs and hard sliders, but for some reason, he's decided to morph into Jamie Moyer. Vazquez has struggled lately, but remember the Vazquez who threw two straight games of 6+ perfect innings this spring. I think we'll see him again.

Lots of people were critical of KW in getting Vazquez last winter when they already had McCarthy, but I think it may have been the plan all along to stockpile starters to put them in a good trading position now. I'm sure any of the Sox starters will bring plenty in return. Good starting pitching is the most valuable baseball commodity there is.

Plus, Kenny expressed doubts about whether McCarthy could pitch the 220+ innings that would be necessary, and that doubt is not unfounded. Between AAA and the Sox, McCarthy pitched only about 180 innings last season. By letting McCarthy pitch the first half the season out of the bullpen, he's set him up to be strong in the second half. Kenny has played this perfectly.
I see your point on McCarthy; but as for making the trade to set up another trade, a starter is valuable to a team in the race, but not so much to a team out of the race...to them, Chris young would be more valuable. Trades at midyear are more likely with teams out of it, in general.
.
Would you rather be the bird or the cat who eats the bird?:rolleyes:

VASoxfan1
07-14-2006, 09:17 AM
I was reading Buster Olney's blog on espn today and apparently the sox are in talks with with the mets to trade either freddy or vazquez to the mets for middle relief help. Seems a bit uneven to me probably would have to toss a prospect or two back our way to even it out.

Also the article mentions that apparently the phillies have offered tom gordon to us for a starting pitcher. Wouldn't be bad, he's been solid this year and signed a reasonable 3/$18 deal this year.

Discuss

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/434979p-366496c.html

itsnotrequired
07-14-2006, 09:18 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=75122

Tekijawa
07-14-2006, 09:19 AM
What, exactly, is a catbird seat?:o:


http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cat2.htm

MERPER
07-14-2006, 09:23 AM
I like both of these rumored moves to be honest... Sanchez or Gordon have electric stuff.... with Cotts, Thornton, Gordon/Sanches and Jenks our bullpen is real solid....

That being said, I personally feel as though McCarthy will be better in the rotation than Freddy or Vazquez....

Also, by getting rid of 1 of them it frees up a few million in payroll for KW to spend in the offseason!

TornLabrum
07-14-2006, 09:24 AM
Okay, folks. We've now had three threads on this topic. People are running the risk of getting whacked here. Use the ****ing SEARCH FUNCTION! There. Is that clear enough?

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 09:24 AM
I see your point on McCarthy; but as for making the trade to set up another trade, a starter is valuable to a team in the race, but not so much to a team out of the race...to them, Chris young would be more valuable. Trades at midyear are more likely with teams out of it, in general.
.
Would you rather be the bird or the cat who eats the bird?:rolleyes:At this point in the season, half of MLB still thinks they're in the race. Either Freddy or Javy would bring a lot in return. I think you're looking at a top reliever AND some good prospects. Include Gload in the trade and the sky's the limit.:redneck

I think the Sox had already decided on Anderson last year, which made Young expendable. And given the glut of OF in the minors and the few openings they're likely to have, I'd expect them to stockpile other positions or more pitchers if they get prospects in trade this year.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 09:26 AM
What, exactly, is a catbird seat?:o:

My choice would be to trade Freddy. He's not the same pitcher since he went to primarily off-speed stuff. He was much more effective when he mixed in more fastballs and hard sliders, but for some reason, he's decided to morph into Jamie Moyer. Vazquez has struggled lately, but remember the Vazquez who threw two straight games of 6+ perfect innings this spring. I think we'll see him again.

Lots of people were critical of KW in getting Vazquez last winter when they already had McCarthy, but I think it may have been the plan all along to stockpile starters to put them in a good trading position now. I'm sure any of the Sox starters will bring plenty in return. Good starting pitching is the most valuable baseball commodity there is.

Plus, Kenny expressed doubts about whether McCarthy could pitch the 220+ innings that would be necessary, and that doubt is not unfounded. Between AAA and the Sox, McCarthy pitched only about 180 innings last season. By letting McCarthy pitch the first half the season out of the bullpen, he's set him up to be strong in the second half. Kenny has played this perfectly.

Vazquez by far has had better 'stuff' this year than Freddy, but to me Javy just doesn't seem to have his focus the same way Freddy does. It seems as if it only takes one mistake or one bad play to throw Javy off his game, while Freddy often gets aggrivated and only pitches better when that sort of thing happens.

itsnotrequired
07-14-2006, 09:26 AM
i thought they owned newsday

Correct.

samram
07-14-2006, 09:27 AM
The Sox should get more than a set-up man for one of its starters.
No doubt. There's a reason those guys are middle relievers/set-up men, specifically, they're not good enough to be starters.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 09:28 AM
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cat2.htmThis place is a font of information.:D:

DaleJRFan
07-14-2006, 10:10 AM
No doubt. There's a reason those guys are middle relievers/set-up men, specifically, they're not good enough to be starters.

Tom Gordon has a lot left on that contract. If the Sox traded Garcia or Vazquez to Phillie, would this be a contract swap? What would the Phillies want with an iffy starter with a big contract??

Duaner Sanchez is really good, but - he walks way too many batters. Makes ya wonder.. If trading with the Mets, I think KW is going to have to settle for just one really good reliver in return because of the contract situations. But, you'd think they'd have to throw in another player considering who the starting pitchers are and what their potential would be in the NL, in a bigger ballpark.

Deuce
07-14-2006, 10:10 AM
Javy isn't working out. It is time to put him on a hook and see if we get a nibble or two.

DaleJRFan
07-14-2006, 10:12 AM
Is it just me, or does this seem like a very realistic trade rumor?? Everything else to this point has been complete nonsense, but this one makes a lot of sense...

Chez
07-14-2006, 10:12 AM
Isn't Javier Vazquez simply a better pitcher than either of the guys the Mets are rumored to be offering? I think so. If you really want to push McCarthy into the rotation, I think the Sox would be better off flip-flopping McCarthy's role for Vazquez's than trading Javy for Sanchez and/or Heilman.

Iwritecode
07-14-2006, 10:19 AM
With all the off-days in the second half I thought I read somewhere that Kenny said a 4-man rotation was possible for much of the second half. If true, moving a starter for help makes a lot of sense.

Kenny may have to move a starter to free up some payroll for another move too. The sell-outs are great, but every payroll has it's constraints.

That's probably not a good idea considering they play 20 straight games in August. Plus they still have a make-up game with the Angels to play.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 10:19 AM
Tom Gordon has a lot left on that contract. If the Sox traded Garcia or Vazquez to Phillie, would this be a contract swap? What would the Phillies want with an iffy starter with a big contract??
They probably wouldn't. What would we want, beyond this year, with a set-up-man with a closer's contract?
I'd rather do it with one of those Mets if we can get some prospects thrown in; then we can use those prospects to trade in the offseason, develop or whatever.

Chicken Dinner
07-14-2006, 10:25 AM
Isn't Javier Vazquez simply a better pitcher than either of the guys the Mets are rumored to be offering? I think so. If you really want to push McCarthy into the rotation, I think the Sox would be better off flip-flopping McCarthy's role for Vazquez's than trading Javy for Sanchez and/or Heilman.

Javy is getting 11.5 million this year and is due 12.5 next year. That's way to much for a bullpen guy and would give us more salary flexibility for another acquisition.

TornLabrum
07-14-2006, 10:27 AM
Two things that just aren't going to happen:

1) Four-man rotation.

2) McCarthy starts this year on any kind of regular basis.

ZombieRob
07-14-2006, 10:39 AM
personally losing neither one of these 2 would bother me

sullythered
07-14-2006, 10:39 AM
Freddy is, and always has been a big game pitcher. He comes up big in big situations. No, he hasn't been throwing as hard this year, but it's by choice. When he has needed the smoke this year, it was there for him. I don't want to move the guy who clinched every playoff series for us nine months ago.

Javier is a better pitcher than any of the guys mentioned in trade. He historically has better halves than first halves, and he's only been here for part of a season. Our history with starting pitchers has proven out that we need to be a little bit patient when it comes to straightening guys out. And WE don't owe him that whole contract, so could everybody please stop listing his whole salary as if we do.

I'm not saying we absolutely can't move either of those guys, but it better be for a hell of a lot more than a 900 year old reliever (Gordon), or either of those two dudes from the Mets.

SoxFan76
07-14-2006, 10:40 AM
Trade rumors = What's the Score

Check it out.

Chez
07-14-2006, 10:40 AM
Javy is getting 11.5 million this year and is due 12.5 next year. That's way to much for a bullpen guy and would give us more salary flexibility for another acquisition.

I agree; but we are trying to win THIS year. I have no problem with moving Vazquez in the off-season if you can improve your club and increase salary flexibility. But I wouldn't make a salary-flexibility motivated deal while you are in the thick of a playoff race.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 10:41 AM
Freddy is, and always has been a big game pitcher. He comes up big in big situations. No, he hasn't been throwing as hard this year, but it's by choice. When he has needed the smoke this year, it was there for him. I don't want to move the guy who clinched every playoff series for us nine months ago.

Javier is a better pitcher than any of the guys mentioned in trade. He historically has better halves than first halves, and he's only been here for part of a season. Our history with starting pitchers has proven out that we need to be a little bit patient when it comes to straightening guys out. And WE don't owe him that whole contract, so could everybody please stop listing his whole salary as if we do.

I'm not saying we absolutely can't move either of those guys, but it better be for a hell of a lot more than a 900 year old reliever (Gordon), or either of those two dudes from the Mets.
Well said.

ZombieRob
07-14-2006, 10:47 AM
u can get rid of both of them and not miss too much freddies completly lost it and is a rag arm ,id liek to see them get a pitcher with a stuff arm instead of one relying on junk balls

balke
07-14-2006, 10:47 AM
In my opinion, Freddy and Javier are too good to trade unless the sox are getting 2 great bullpen arms. If you move Mccarthy into the rotation, then you lose another bullpen arm. I think Javier is going to have a great run in the second half. The Sox need to keep this starting rotation if they want to lock themselves into the playoffs. If the right deal comes along though, it would be interesting.

Baby Fisk
07-14-2006, 10:48 AM
personally losing neither one of these 2 would bother me
Your post is unclear. Are you saying you want them to be traded?

1917
07-14-2006, 10:49 AM
Freddy is 10-4, Javy is 9-4....when it comes down to it, W's are what matters....our offense this year is built to score runs, if this was last year, it may have been different, but so what, they have high era's, they are giving quality starts and earning wins. We are a high powered offense this year, we are expected to score 6 runs a night...last year we were built to score 4 runs and win 4-2.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 10:49 AM
u can get rid of both of them and not miss too much freddies completly lost it and is a rag arm ,id liek to see them get a pitcher with a stuff arm instead of one relying on junk balls
"Stuff" is not just velocity, bud. Freddy still has very good "stuff."

By the way, grammar is our friend.

TheOldRoman
07-14-2006, 10:50 AM
What, exactly, is a catbird seat?:o:

My choice would be to trade Freddy. He's not the same pitcher since he went to primarily off-speed stuff. He was much more effective when he mixed in more fastballs and hard sliders, but for some reason, he's decided to morph into Jamie Moyer. Vazquez has struggled lately, but remember the Vazquez who threw two straight games of 6+ perfect innings this spring. I think we'll see him again.

Lots of people were critical of KW in getting Vazquez last winter when they already had McCarthy, but I think it may have been the plan all along to stockpile starters to put them in a good trading position now. I'm sure any of the Sox starters will bring plenty in return. Good starting pitching is the most valuable baseball commodity there is.

Plus, Kenny expressed doubts about whether McCarthy could pitch the 220+ innings that would be necessary, and that doubt is not unfounded. Between AAA and the Sox, McCarthy pitched only about 180 innings last season. By letting McCarthy pitch the first half the season out of the bullpen, he's set him up to be strong in the second half. Kenny has played this perfectly.
I agree with everything you said, but I think KW should wait until the offseason to trade a starter. First of all, you can get a lot more for good players in the offseason than at the trade deadline. We are a very good team right now, and our one hole (ass end of the BP) doesn't warrant disrupting the rotation to fix it. Besides that, I am not very impressed with the names mentioned in the trades. Gordon makes a lot of money and will whine if he is a set-up man. Sanchez is so-so. If McCarthy moves into the rotation, we would have 2 big holes in the BP. Unless we are getting two absolute studs, you can't even consider this deal.
Most importantly, we will have a clearer picture in the offseason of who we should trade. I agree with you that I would stick with Vazquez, but if Garcia rebounds and Vazquez stays the same or regresses, things would change.

I just don't see Kenny trading one of his starters now. It is WAY too big of a gamble for a team with the second best record in baseball. It is unnecessary. He will get bullpen help other ways.

chaerulez
07-14-2006, 10:51 AM
I think he said they doesn't mind if they are traded. For me it depends on what we get in return.

Depaul
07-14-2006, 10:52 AM
Our scouts and coop and people see Vazquez as last years Jose so I don't see him going anywhere.

Freddy Junkballer would be my choice for trading but then he's one of Ozzie's boys, I wouldn't be suprised with anything that KW would pull.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 10:56 AM
Is it just me, or does this seem like a very realistic trade rumor?? Everything else to this point has been complete nonsense, but this one makes a lot of sense...

I'm with you here.

The Mets, even if Glavine and Pedro were healthy and solid for the rest of the season, are still going to need at least one top veteran starter to go anywhere in the postseason. Dontrelle, if even available, will command far more than I think they are willing to give up in a pennant race. Zito and Schmidt are possibilities, but both will be free agents at the end of the season and could leave. Livan Hernandez might work, b ut he's been terrible in the NL. That leaves both Garcia and Vazquez as probably the best, safest options for them to explore.

I highly doubt KW is going to give one of these guys up for nothing more than a setup man, so it will be interesting to see what Kenny asks.

Maybe this is unlikely, but I'd LOVE to see Vazquez for El Duque + Duaner Sanchez + Endy Chavez. El Duque becomes the last guy in the bullpen, Sanchez replaces Politte, McCarthy goes to the rotation, and Chavez becomes our back up CF. Endy's a LH bat too, so an almost-platoon could be possible as a last resort if Brian slmps again.

russ99
07-14-2006, 10:59 AM
Wow, what are those guys smoking? There's no way the Sox trade either of those two quality starters for Middle Relief. Tom Gordon? Please. Been there, done that.

Considering the time, cash and players the Sox invested in both Freddy and Javier, they'd need a really solid return if they are traded. And since the Sox control their contracts for the next 2(?) years, Kenny can wait until the right offer comes in, even until next year if need be.

Just cause the Reds GM is an idiot, and completely overpays for crappy relief pitchers it doesn't turn Kenny into one. I have no doubt Kenny will wait until the deadline when teams are more desperate to dump.

credefan24
07-14-2006, 10:59 AM
I don't see how it makes sense to trade either of these guys. Vasquez has only been here for half a season. Lets give it some time.
And, as others have said, Freddy is a big game pitcher. On the road, he's lights out. True, he's lost some velocity, but what do we get for giving him up?
A bullpen guy? and move FOB into the rotation? That seems like a lateral move.

Personally, I hope Vasquez and Freddy are not traded.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 11:01 AM
I'd rather see Vazquez traded. Rosenthal says Freddy is more likely to go because the Sox feel Vazquez might produce the best second half of any of our pitchers. I say if you can get a good reliever and a quality prospect or two, trade Vazquez. Teams have been waiting for him to break out ever since he left Montreal. I don't know that it's going to happen at this point. I'd rather have Freddy pitching down the stretch and hopefully in the playoffs than Vazquez.

I'll take Sanchez and Maine or maybe Soler. Or shoot high and see if they're desperate enough to trade Pelfrey. Probably not, especially after what happened with Kazmir, but it can't hurt to try.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 11:01 AM
Maybe this is unlikely, but I'd LOVE to see Vazquez for El Duque + Duaner Sanchez + Endy Chavez.
That's a lot more reasonable for a guy with 9 wins at the break.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:02 AM
I don't see how it makes sense to trade either of these guys. Vasquez has only been here for half a season. Lets give it some time.
And, as others have said, Freddy is a big game pitcher. On the road, he's lights out. True, he's lost some velocity, but what do we get for giving him up?
A bullpen guy? and move FOB into the rotation? That seems like a lateral move.

Personally, I hope Vasquez and Freddy are not traded.

Vazquez for one reliever IMO doesn't make this team better unless his name is Mariano Rivera. But if the Mets are getting desperate and Kenny can use it against them, it may be possible to get a few players who, although may not be huge names, could improve the overall team in several areas.

cheeses_h_rice
07-14-2006, 11:02 AM
personally losing neither one of these 2 would bother me

If the Sox lost neither one, then they'd still be on the team.

:rolleyes:

DaleJRFan
07-14-2006, 11:02 AM
Who the hell is Vasquaz? :?:

DaleJRFan
07-14-2006, 11:03 AM
If the Sox lost neither one, then they'd still be on the team.

:rolleyes:

And they give you cash, which is just as good as money...

SoxFan78
07-14-2006, 11:05 AM
And they give you cash, which is just as good as money...

60% of the time, it works every time!

ZombieRob
07-14-2006, 11:05 AM
sully ..wrong freddies control sucks hes givin up more hits on 1 and 2 counts then any other pitcher ive seen look at his pitching stats hrs given up walks hits and of course era believe me dont get over confident with this vaunted line up we run into a good pitching team were in trouble

russ99
07-14-2006, 11:05 AM
Vazquez for one reliever IMO doesn't make this team better unless his name is Mariano Rivera. But if the Mets are getting desperate and Kenny can use it against them, it may be possible to get a few players who, although may not be huge names, could improve the overall team in several areas.

Agreed, but the Sox focus right now is to add high quality players to help defend the Championship, not dump a solid starter for a bunch of medium to high level prospects. White flag, anyone?!?

Since we're talking about ludicrous rumors, let's start one: I'd deal Freddy or Vazquez to the Mets for Wagner. :rolleyes:

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 11:06 AM
That's a lot more reasonable for a guy with 9 wins at the break.

Reasonable for who? One thing we don't need is to re-acquire El Duque. He's struggled to get batters out in the NL. And Endy Chavez? Bleh. I'd rather have Mackowiak's bat. Give me a solid prospect and Sanchez rather than two crappy veterans.

AuroraSoxFan
07-14-2006, 11:08 AM
Shopping people is just a part of the business. Just have to have confidence in Kenny. I'm sure he's got it all under control. Long as we get some SOLID pen help in any trades so be it.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:09 AM
Agreed, but the Sox focus right now is to add high quality players to help defend the Championship, not dump a solid starter for a bunch of medium to high level prospects. White flag, anyone?!?

I'd deal Freddy or Vazquez to the Mets for Wagner. :rolleyes:

That's the problem though. Vazquez hasn't been high quality so far, only solid for a fifth start on a championship team. If you can take that solid fifth starter, replace him with another solid fifth starter on your own team, add a couple of arms to your bullpen and maybe even another bench player, AND cut some salary at he same time, I think you have to seriously consider it. Even though the rumors thusfar only have the Sox getting one or two relievers, I doubt KW does a move for that little.

dickallen15
07-14-2006, 11:10 AM
Get rid of Garcia. His new junkball approach is causing way too many baserunners. Baserunners he can't hold on to save his life. He shows up teammates. He alledgedly tested positive for weed at the World Baseball Classic. Now that the league has seen his new style, he is ripe to get pounded. Trade him for something you can use while you still can.

ZombieRob
07-14-2006, 11:10 AM
i doubt kenny williams will do anything outragous most of his moves in his gm span have been pretty logical cept for the todd ritchie trade of course .im sure were gonna get a set up man ...my guess maybe dan kolb and a brady clark package cept kolbs era is on the 6's

russ99
07-14-2006, 11:10 AM
Shopping people is just a part of the business. Just have to have confidence in Kenny. I'm sure he's got it all under control. Long as we get some SOLID pen help in any trades so be it.

Absoultely. The problem now is the current myth propagated by ESPN (and other media) is that the going rate for decent relievers is now the insane amount of talent the Reds threw away yesterday.

Kenny needs to wait until the market cools down a bit. Try out Politte & Hermanson for a few weeks, then strike.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 11:12 AM
Vazquez for one reliever IMO doesn't make this team better unless his name is Mariano Rivera. But if the Mets are getting desperate and Kenny can use it against them, it may be possible to get a few players who, although may not be huge names, could improve the overall team in several areas.

Not necessarily. With the off days in the second half, McCarthy could become the 5th starter and be skipped several times, pitching in the bullpen during those times when he is skipped. If we trade Vazquez for Sanchez/Heilman, they replace McCarthy in the pen and McCarthy replaces Vazquez. And really, based on what we've seen so far, does anyone really feel Vazquez is much better than McCarthy? Hell, I think McCarthy might be a better starter than Vazquez at this point.

credefan24
07-14-2006, 11:13 AM
Absoultely. The problem now is the current myth propagated by ESPN (and other media) is that the going rate for decent relievers is now the insane amount of talent the Reds threw away yesterday.

Kenny needs to wait until the market cools down a bit. Try out Politte & Hermanson for a few weeks, then strike.

Fantastic points.
Lets have a little faith in KW.
I doubt he'll do something irrational and break up this team for the sake of prospects.

By the way, where did this rumor originate? ESPN?

sullythered
07-14-2006, 11:13 AM
sully ..wrong freddies control sucks hes givin up more hits on 1 and 2 counts then any other pitcher ive seen look at his pitching stats hrs given up walks hits and of course era believe me dont get over confident with this vaunted line up we run into a good pitching team were in trouble
Dude, I hope English is your second language.

Stats don't always tell the story. Garcia has ALWAYS pitched like a different guy in big game situations. Freddy's control does not suck, he clearly just has trouble focusing in games and situations he doesn't see as "big." I'll take Freddy on the hill in a playoff game over almost everybody in the league.

russ99
07-14-2006, 11:13 AM
Yeah, but what happens if one of the Sox starters gets hurt or we need more long relief help during the tired arm period?

Bring up Charlie Haeger?!?! :o:

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 11:14 AM
Kenny needs to wait until the market cools down a bit. Try out Politte & Hermanson for a few weeks, then strike.

The problem is that there are only a few weeks left before the July 31st deadline. I'm sure there will be some good players who get through waivers because of their contracts, but quality relief pitching is not very likely to make it through waivers.

DaleJRFan
07-14-2006, 11:15 AM
where did this rumor originate? ESPN?

NY Daily News.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/434979p-366496c.html

MushMouth
07-14-2006, 11:16 AM
Yeah, but what happens if one of the Sox starters gets hurt or we need more long relief help during the tired arm period?

Bring up Charlie Haeger?!?! :o:

Or Heath Phillips or Tracey - I'd be okay with that for a few starts. If we can get substantially better in the bullpen with a guy like Heilman (who by all accounts has starting talent himself) and allow BMac to get into the starting Rotation...

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:17 AM
Reasonable for who? One thing we don't need is to re-acquire El Duque. He's struggled to get batters out in the NL. And Endy Chavez? Bleh. I'd rather have Mackowiak's bat. Give me a solid prospect and Sanchez rather than two crappy veterans.

What do we need prospects for? Why make a midseason trade for prospects when you can probably get more in the offseason?

It's just a suggestion, but El Duque knows ow to get hitters out. I think he's struggled because he's shown over the course of the 2005-2006 seasons that he is not a viable option as a starter anymore, but he can be a tremendous asset IMO out of the bullpen, especially as the last man.

Think about it. We have Jenks and Thornton throwing in the high nineties to triple digits, Cotts and Rske in the low nineties, and we could add a veteran pitcher who can change speeds and trick hitters as good as anyone in baseball. He just doesn't have the gas anymore to go out and work 5-6 innings or more every fifth day.

Additionally, add Sanchez who immediately becomes a set up man, add Chavez who is a solid bench player that can actually play CF, and replace Vazquez with McCarthy who IMO couldn't do any worse than Javy has done so far.

So, you may arguably suffer a slight downgrade in your last option of the bullpen, upgrade your setup man, upgrade your bench devensively and in terms of versatility since you replace Gload with Mackowiak, making Rob primarily a pinch hitter, get a wash out of your starting rotation, and at the same time cut salary.

ChiSoxPatF
07-14-2006, 11:25 AM
Combine our three major rumors thus far and it all makes alot of sensee:
McCarthy and BA for Jason Schmidt
Garcia/Vasquez for Tom Gordon and Aaron Rowand

Both deals seem fair to me and all have been speculate in the last two weeks. Now whether this is the exact trades made or the details change I don't know but I think the general ideas are what Kenny may be pursuing right now.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 11:26 AM
Combine our three major rumors thus far and it all makes alot of sensee:
McCarthy and BA for Jason Schmidt
Garcia/Vasquez for Tom Gordon and Aaron Rowand

Both deals seem fair to me and all have been speculate in the last two weeks. Now whether this is the exact trades made or the details change I don't know but I think the general ideas are what Kenny may be pursuing right now.
And we would get real old, real quick.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:27 AM
Combine our three major rumors thus far and it all makes alot of sensee:
McCarthy and BA for Jason Schmidt
Garcia/Vasquez for Tom Gordon and Aaron Rowand

Both deals seem fair to me and all have been speculate in the last two weeks. Now whether this is the exact trades made or the details change I don't know but I think the general ideas are what Kenny may be pursuing right now.

No thank you, Aaron Rowand.

TheOldRoman
07-14-2006, 11:28 AM
The White Sox couldn't possibly trade Freddie Garcia. They couldn't trade Freddie because, to my knowledge, he doesn't exist. If Freddie Garcia does exist, he is not under contract with the White Sox.
If you are talking about the Sox trading FREDDY Garcia, starting pitcher, number 34, then that is a different story. My god, this guy has been here over 2 years, he won a world series here, and people still can't spell his name.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 11:28 AM
What do we need prospects for? Why make a midseason trade for prospects when you can probably get more in the offseason?

It's just a suggestion, but El Duque knows ow to get hitters out. I think he's struggled because he's shown over the course of the 2005-2006 seasons that he is not a viable option as a starter anymore, but he can be a tremendous asset IMO out of the bullpen, especially as the last man.

Think about it. We have Jenks and Thornton throwing in the high nineties to triple digits, Cotts and Rske in the low nineties, and we could add a veteran pitcher who can change speeds and trick hitters as good as anyone in baseball. He just doesn't have the gas anymore to go out and work 5-6 innings or more every fifth day.

Additionally, add Sanchez who immediately becomes a set up man, add Chavez who is a solid bench player that can actually play CF, and replace Vazquez with McCarthy who IMO couldn't do any worse than Javy has done so far.

So, you may arguably suffer a slight downgrade in your last option of the bullpen, upgrade your setup man, upgrade your bench devensively and in terms of versatility since you replace Gload with Mackowiak, making Rob primarily a pinch hitter, get a wash out of your starting rotation, and at the same time cut salary.
It's still a bad trade. You never make a trade to get a reliever who can be your last option in the bullpen. That's just saying he's not good enough to be option #1,2,3,4 or 5.

Chavez is neither a better defensive player than Anderson, nor a better hitter than Mackowiak. He's somewhere in between. I'd rather work the platoon we have going now.

Plus, they are both free agents at the end of the year. So in 4 months, this trade would simply be Vazquez for Sanchez. I'd rather have a prospect who will be around past the end of the year. It would be different if the player(s) was going to make some impact that would significantly improve our chances of winning the World Series. Endy Chavez and El Duque don't improve our chances of winning the World Series this year.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:29 AM
The White Sox couldn't possibly trade Freddie Garcia. They couldn't trade Freddie because, to my knowledge, he doesn't exist. If Freddie Garcia does exist, he is not under contract with the White Sox.

If you are talking about the Sox trading FREDDY Garcia, than that is a different story. My god, this guy has been here over 2 years, he won a world series here, and people still can't spell his name.

That reminds me, whatever happened to Freddy Guzman?

Sargeant79
07-14-2006, 11:29 AM
sully ..wrong freddies control sucks hes givin up more hits on 1 and 2 counts then any other pitcher ive seen look at his pitching stats hrs given up walks hits and of course era believe me dont get over confident with this vaunted line up we run into a good pitching team were in trouble

Can someone be banned for refusing to use anything resembling proper grammar and punctuation? This is painful to read...

credefan24
07-14-2006, 11:34 AM
May I ask why we are talking about trimming payroll, and picking up prospects in the midst of defending a World Series Championship? It seems like such issues should be discussed in the offseason, or if a team is not in contention.

Freddy and Vasquez are important to this team. Freddy is like the Joe Crede of our pitchers. Comes up big in clutch games.
Why trade young talent for older guys like Flash Gordon? Just seems sort of odd to me, but then again, I'm sitting at a desk, and not as the General Manager of the World Champion Chicago White Sox.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:40 AM
It's still a bad trade. You never make a trade to get a reliever who can be your last option in the bullpen. That's just saying he's not good enough to be option #1,2,3,4 or 5.

Chavez is neither a better defensive player than Anderson, nor a better hitter than Mackowiak. He's somewhere in between. I'd rather work the platoon we have going now.

Plus, they are both free agents at the end of the year. So in 4 months, this trade would simply be Vazquez for Sanchez. I'd rather have a prospect who will be around past the end of the year. It would be different if the player(s) was going to make some impact that would significantly improve our chances of winning the World Series. Endy Chavez and El Duque don't improve our chances of winning the World Series this year.

Chavez is a better fielder than Mackowiak. He may not be a better hitter than Gload, but Gload is hardly used now anyway. Mackowiak then pinch hits more and can play LF on days when Ozzie wants to rest Pods and BA instead of sticking Pablo out there. El Duque being the last option out of a bullpen is not a bad thing either. It's very encouraging actually, because it means we would have Jenks/Thornton/Sanchez/Cotts/Riske ahead of him. There are a lot of guys who couldn't vault ahead of those five. To me, that's a pretty sweet bullpen.

I would disagree that a move like that wouldn't help us win a World Series. In an extra inning game for example, would you rather have Endy Chavez or Rob Mackowiak in CF if BA is hit for? Also, would you rather have McCarthy, with his straight fastball and often inability to get his breaking stuff over when coming out of the pen, out there against a top veteran hitter or El Duque?

Obviously, I'd love to get as much out of the Mets as possible if KW is going to trade them one of our starters, but we have to be realistic here. If we deal Javy to them for a setup man and a prospect, IMO we do not improve right now and that alone should be the goal of any trade.

Also, we already have possible extensions coming to Iguchi, Dye, and Crede. This means that possibly Getz, Sweeney, and Fields could be expendable. That is enough right there to land a big name if we need one later.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 11:42 AM
Reasonable for who? One thing we don't need is to re-acquire El Duque. He's struggled to get batters out in the NL. And Endy Chavez? Bleh. I'd rather have Mackowiak's bat. Give me a solid prospect and Sanchez rather than two crappy veterans. I agree except it should be a top and and a solid plus Sanchez; certainly beats mediocre veterans that we'll have to figure out how to get rid of in 6 months.

How would you like to be the Reds and stuck with Royce Clayton...that should be unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment.

Zisk77
07-14-2006, 11:44 AM
I'm more inclined to trade Freddy because:

1. He's on the downslope of his career agewise. His trade Value is not ever going to be higher than now.

2. He has already lost velocity.

3. He absolutely cannot hold runners on base and this is starting to get us killed. Hell Conine easily swipt a base off of him!

4. He is a big salary.

5. Vasquez still has a lot of potential. It seems to me his Fastball, change up and slider are all very good. Sometimes his curve hangs. When he doesn't have a good hook should just not throw it. Shake off A.j. Widge.

Prefer a trade with phils as helping the Mets is not a good idea. Garcia for Gordan and some other considerations.

If trading to mets they better add lastings milledge (who it is rumored would be available for Dontreille)?

Lip Man 1
07-14-2006, 11:47 AM
A few things.

On Chicago Tribune Live yesterday they were talking about trade possibilities and the concensus was that the Sox will not do anything this season regarding moving McCarthy. They said he is just 'fitting in' to work out of the bullpen and that he's simply not ready to go back to starting. You can't turn it on and off like a light switch.

In today's Chicago Tribune (Friday) Mark Gonzales confirmed that the Sox have asked about both Andruw Jones and Dontrelle Willis. Both Atlanta and Florida immediately said 'no,' and according to the story wouldn't even let the Sox start naming possible names they were willing to give up.

The reporters on Chicago Tribune Live made a good point, the Sox brass feels Vasquez has a better arm then Garcia and he's been a favorite of Williams. Their guess is that he (Javier) isn't going anywhere.

Lip

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:49 AM
I agree except it should be a top and and a solid plus Sanchez; certainly beats mediocre veterans that we'll have to figure out how to get rid of in 6 months.

How would you like to be the Reds and stuck with Royce Clayton...that should be unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment.

True, but IMO there is no comparison between Javy's value and Kearns+Lopez's value.

I think a lot of people are overvaluing Javy's worth because of all the big trades he's been a part of, including our own where even the great KW may have overpaid for him.

The most discouraging thing about Javy to me is that his problems all seem to be mental. If it were mechanical like Jose's were, maybe we'd have seen some improvement by now. But they're not, and I personally don't believe that any pitching coach on the planet can get a guy to succeed when he refuses to trust himself.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 11:51 AM
Chavez is a better fielder than Mackowiak. He may not be a better hitter than Gload, but Gload is hardly used now anyway. Mackowiak then pinch hits more and can play LF on days when Ozzie wants to rest Pods and BA instead of sticking Pablo out there.

This is the AL. How often do we use a pinch hitter? The only one in our linuep who we need to pinch hit for is Anderson. And how many times does Ozzie rest both Pods and BA? They hit from opposite sides of the plate, so one or the other is almost always playing.

El Duque being the last option out of a bullpen is not a bad thing either. It's very encouraging actually, because it means we would have Jenks/Thornton/Sanchez/Cotts/Riske ahead of him. There are a lot of guys who couldn't vault ahead of those five. To me, that's a pretty sweet bullpen.



I would disagree that a move like that wouldn't help us win a World Series. In an extra inning game for example, would you rather have Endy Chavez or Rob Mackowiak in CF if BA is hit for? Also, would you rather have McCarthy, with his straight fastball and often inability to get his breaking stuff over when coming out of the pen, out there against a top veteran hitter or El Duque?

Come on, you don't make a trade because the guy on the bench who would play the OF in an extra inning game might be ever so slightly better than the guy you already have. And your question doesn't make sense because McCarthy would be starting in this scenario. Unless you're talking about the playoffs, in which case I'd rather have McCarthy. Have you seen El Duque pitch this year?

Obviously, I'd love to get as much out of the Mets as possible if KW is going to trade them one of our starters, but we have to be realistic here. If we deal Javy to them for a setup man and a prospect, IMO we do not improve right now and that alone should be the goal of any trade.

You actually think El Duque and Endy freaking Chavez make us that much better right now that they would make or break a deal for you? If we make any deal where we trade a starter, the goal is to add a reliever who can make our bullpen better, not add a last option in our bullpen and a career .262 hitter to be our 5th outfielder.

soxtalker
07-14-2006, 11:51 AM
May I ask why we are talking about trimming payroll, and picking up prospects in the midst of defending a World Series Championship? It seems like such issues should be discussed in the offseason, or if a team is not in contention.
....

If the objective of the trade was to accumulate prospects or reduce payroll, you'd be right. But every indication is that the main point of the trade is to shore up our bullpen. The starting pitching we trade away would appear to have more value. That's not a reason to avoid the trade, as long as KW can get something of value in return that he can use in the future. In this case, we can probably view the prospects as a sort of "currency" that can be used in future trades or free up someone else in the system who could be used in trades. (Yes, they could turn into good players for us, but KW has been fairly adept at using the farm system in trades.) Similarly, if we free up payroll, that can allow more flexibility later on. And, while waiver deals are more difficult, "later on" could be this season.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 11:53 AM
The reporters on Chicago Tribune Live made a good point, the Sox brass feels Vasquez has a better arm then Garcia and he's been a favorite of Williams. Their guess is that he (Javier) isn't going anywhere.

Lip

It's undeniable that Javy has a better arm than Garcia, but just one question. If you are in a playoff game and you know you are going to have to hold your opponent to two runs or less, which of the two would you rather have on the hill? Vazquez and his potential? Or Garcia and his postseason record?

Lip Man 1
07-14-2006, 11:55 AM
Sox:

But with the Sox offense do you really think they'll need to 'hold' the opposition to one or two runs?

See what I mean....you can go round and round with this.

Lip

SABRSox
07-14-2006, 12:01 PM
If Pelfrey is not part of the deal, don't make it.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 12:02 PM
Sox:

But with the Sox offense do you really think they'll need to 'hold' the opposition to one or two runs?

See what I mean....you can go round and round with this.

Lip
True - what's really important is that our starters pitch a decent game...4 or so runs over 7 or so innings. I'd prefer better, but that's good enough most of the time. And we have that.
I'm not convinced the need for a reliever is worth the loss of depth in the rotation....and I know that, all things being equal, a reliever doesn't have near the value of a starter.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:03 PM
You actually think El Duque and Endy freaking Chavez make us that much better right now that they would make or break a deal for you? If we make any deal where we trade a starter, the goal is to add a reliever who can make our bullpen better, not add a last option in our bullpen and a career .262 hitter to be our 5th outfielder.

El Duque and Endy Chavez would do a lot more to improve the team right now than some prospect toiling in AA would.

Maybe you missed the point. If we're going to trade a starter, we should improve the major league team as much as possible. I really don't care if Triple A Charlotte or Double A Birmingham win a few more games this year because KW strengthed the team.

I don't see the Mets giving us anything better than one solid reliever (I don't count Heilman as a solid reliever) and a couple of throw-in major leaguers and/or a mid-level prospect or two. If they wouldn't give up Milledge for Zito than why would they give us a top arm out of their bullpen AND a top prospect? Besides, we're not talking about giving up Buehrle here, we're talking about trading a guy with an electric arm that is still a project. What do you honestly think we could get?

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:06 PM
Sox:

But with the Sox offense do you really think they'll need to 'hold' the opposition to one or two runs?

See what I mean....you can go round and round with this.

Lip

You never know. We could be facing Verlander, Bonderman, Rogers, Lester, Schilling, Halladay, Burnett, Chacin, Zito, Harden, Reyes, Mulder, Pettite, Oswalt, Clemens, Pedro, Glavine, etc. Any one of those guys are capable of holding any offense you can ever put together to two runs or less.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 12:07 PM
True, but IMO there is no comparison between Javy's value and Kearns+Lopez's value.

Except to the Reds...2 mediocre relievers and clayton isn't much value.

Kearns and Lopez have flaws...they could hit, though.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 12:10 PM
sully ..wrong freddies control sucks hes givin up more hits on 1 and 2 counts then any other pitcher ive seen look at his pitching stats hrs given up walks hits and of course era believe me dont get over confident with this vaunted line up we run into a good pitching team were in troubleilikethisnewstyleoftypingwhywasteallthattim ewithpunctuationandspacesandstuff

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:12 PM
Except to the Reds...2 mediocre relievers and clayton isn't much value.

Kearns and Lopez have flaws...they could hit, though.

Yes, but I doubt you'll find anyone, other than for the sake of making an argument, that will go out and say the Red's didn't get hosed on that deal.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 12:13 PM
I don't see the Mets giving us anything better than one solid reliever (I don't count Heilman as a solid reliever) and a couple of throw-in major leaguers and/or a mid-level prospect or two. If they wouldn't give up Milledge for Zito than why would they give us a top arm out of their bullpen AND a top prospect? Besides, we're not talking about giving up Buehrle here, we're talking about trading a guy with an electric arm that is still a project. What do you honestly think we could get? On the other hand, what did we give up for Vasquez? He's not pitching much worse now than he did for Az.
Zito doesn't have great stuff.. 1 year left on his contract...Teams pay large for "stuff"

The Reds did get hosed...but you know, teams get hosed sometimes, especially when they're desparate. Let's find a team who is, and if we can't, just don't make a major deal, because we definitely aren't desparate.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:16 PM
On the other hand, what did we give up for Vasquez? He's not pitching much worse now than he did for Az.
Zito doesn't have great stuff.. 1 year left on his contract...Teams pay large for "stuff"

The Reds did get hosed...but you know, teams get hosed sometimes, especially when they're desparate. Let's find a team who is, and if we can't, just don't make a major deal, because we definitely aren't desparate.

Zito has the best curveball out there IMO. He won a Cy Young in the AL with it, which is more than Javier can say.

The Dude
07-14-2006, 12:19 PM
I hope to holy hell that we dont trade ANY of our 5 horses!:angry: Especially if it is for a middle reliever ala Tom Gordon. We can easily get a decent middle guy for Cliff Politte + cash + 2 or 3 prospects. With Dustin hopefully coming back (crosses fingers) why break up the rotation and put Mac in the rotation when he's starting to get used to the bullpen role?? Wait till the offseason to plug Mac into the rotation so he gets in the starting role mentally.
I just hope these are just ****ing rumors and none of this **** comes true.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 12:19 PM
Zito has the best curveball out there IMO. He won a Cy Young in the AL with it, which is more than Javier can say.
I guess I would just say that Javy or Freddie for one of those Mets set-up-men is a deal that is not in our best interests and would not provide value received for the value given.
For sure I would try Javy as set-up before I'd do that.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 12:20 PM
El Duque and Endy Chavez would do a lot more to improve the team right now than some prospect toiling in AA would.

Maybe you missed the point. If we're going to trade a starter, we should improve the major league team as much as possible. I really don't care if Triple A Charlotte or Double A Birmingham win a few more games this year because KW strengthed the team.

I don't see the Mets giving us anything better than one solid reliever (I don't count Heilman as a solid reliever) and a couple of throw-in major leaguers and/or a mid-level prospect or two. If they wouldn't give up Milledge for Zito than why would they give us a top arm out of their bullpen AND a top prospect? Besides, we're not talking about giving up Buehrle here, we're talking about trading a guy with an electric arm that is still a project. What do you honestly think we could get?

I'm not going to waste much more time posting about this Chavez/El Duque part of the trade because it's not going to happen.

The idea isn't to improve our minor league teams. If we're going to trade a starter for a reliever, we need more than just the reliever in return. That "more" part of the trade should be one of two things: 1.) Another player or two that significantly improves our team this year; 2.) A prospect or two that improves our team for the future. Chavez and El Duque do neither. I would rather get Alay Soler who fits in both #1 and #2.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 12:22 PM
People, let's get a grip. Kenny is NOT going to trade a starting pitcher for a middle reliever. The last several trades have been, if anything, lopsided in our favor. He'll get value back, which may include a middle reliever with several other players. The master is at work.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:29 PM
I'm not going to waste much more time posting about this Chavez/El Duque part of the trade because it's not going to happen.

The idea isn't to improve our minor league teams. If we're going to trade a starter for a reliever, we need more than just the reliever in return. That "more" part of the trade should be one of two things: 1.) Another player or two that significantly improves our team this year; 2.) A prospect or two that improves our team for the future. Chavez and El Duque do neither. I would rather get Alay Soler who fits in both #1 and #2.

What does Soler have? His stats are far from spectacular. It looks like he walks a lot of guys and gives up quite a few hits without getting very many strikeouts. You think he can help the team now?

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:29 PM
People, let's get a grip. Kenny is NOT going to trade a starting pitcher for a middle reliever. The last several trades have been, if anything, lopsided in our favor. He'll get value back, which may include a middle reliever with several other players. The master is at work.

I hope so.

MarySwiss
07-14-2006, 12:33 PM
I hope to holy hell that we dont trade ANY of our 5 horses!:angry: Especially if it is for a middle reliever ala Tom Gordon. We can easily get a decent middle guy for Cliff Politte + cash + 2 or 3 prospects. With Dustin hopefully coming back (crosses fingers) why break up the rotation and put Mac in the rotation when he's starting to get used to the bullpen role?? Wait till the offseason to plug Mac into the rotation so he gets in the starting role mentally.
I just hope these are just ****ing rumors and none of this **** comes true.

Well, thank God! I agree with everything you said. :gulp:

soxtalker
07-14-2006, 12:35 PM
Looking at the discussion (http://www.metsblog.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/14/2118471.html#comments) on one of the Mets boards, I see the names of Heilman and Sanchez quite frequently. (Heilman must have been struggling, so he's the choice most of them prefer.) Another name that pops up a few times on the blog is Royce Ring.

KW has done a bunch of deals in which he's traded for fairly obscure players (or players that are struggling), because he saw something in the scouting. I wonder if there isn't someone in the Mets or Phillies systems that he's been seeking for awhile.

hawkjt
07-14-2006, 12:38 PM
Thank god Kenny is running the show. He will not do anything rash like trading one of our starters. Push comes to shove you always hang on to your pitching.

But the mere talk of shopping Freddy and Javy will really motivate these guys. Look for a big july for both. They both love being sox and will do what it takes to stay on the south side.

Kenny will play it cool for most of the month-evaluate our team and pick up what we need without giving away key guys- like Jose last year.

I say we take another look at Sean Tracy.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 12:40 PM
Looking at the discussion (http://www.metsblog.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/14/2118471.html#comments) on one of the Mets boards, I see the names of Heilman and Sanchez quite frequently. (Heilman must have been struggling, so he's the choice most of them prefer.) Another name that pops up a few times on the blog is Royce Ring.

KW has done a bunch of deals in which he's traded for fairly obscure players (or players that are struggling), because he saw something in the scouting. I wonder if there isn't someone in the Mets or Phillies systems that he's been seeking for awhile. Heliman isn't squat... he's not even close to a lock down set-up man. He's a middle reliever. He's worth Ross Gload.
Sanchez is okay against NL competition, but he's not that great either. PItched about like Matt Thornton has in the AL this year - which is good, but, you know, let me ask this - could WE get a starter for Matt Thonton? We'd be laughed off the phone.

On Edit, Looking at their blog, I also see some suggestions that they throw in Chad Bradford as a sweetener. LOL

The most interesting thing on that blog is that someone said "their bullpen's pretty good"...and he's right, it is pretty good. We've got several pitchers as good as Heilman or Sanchez in our pen.

Brian26
07-14-2006, 12:44 PM
Heliman isn't squat... he's not even close to a lock down set-up man. He's a middle reliever. He's worth Ross Gload.

Thank you. I'm reading through these rumors at lunch, and this is making me sick. Its nuts to think that people on the Mets board think they can land Garcia or Vazquez for a mediocre middle reliever along with Royce Ring (a guy we gave away three years ago). Talk about delusional. Garcia and Vazquez are talented innings-eaters. You just don't throw guys like that out the window to pick up a reliever that could become your next Cliff Politte meltdown case next year. KW was after Mota back in 2004...look at how far he has fallen since then. Furthermore, the Vazquez trade would become: Young/Vizcaino/Duque for Heilman and Ring? That's insane.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 12:55 PM
ok so sully being the sox apologist that you are and are happy with a mediocre pitcher your saying you'd like garcia in a match up against the bosox and shilling ? lol lol lol lol lol if youd pay more attention to the games garcia pitched then my typingt youd know that garcia really is bad this year and only the sox offense has pretty muched saved him

He's had a few bad games, but he also beat St. Louis when they threw Reyes at us and showed, once again, that no matter what his velocity looks like he an still be a big game pitcher.

oeo
07-14-2006, 12:58 PM
ok so sully being the sox apologist that you are and are happy with a mediocre pitcher your saying you'd like garcia in a match up against the bosox and shilling ? lol lol lol lol lol if youd pay more attention to the games garcia pitched then my typingt youd know that garcia really is bad this year and only the sox offense has pretty muched saved him
This is a ludicrous statement. Is Garcia getting the Garland treatment, now? Freddy was very reliable at the beginning of the year, and who can forget his game against the Cards a few weeks ago.

Just because his last few starts have not been very good, that doesn't mean that his season has been terrible. His numbers are inflated because of a few bad starts (just like Garland).

Some of you make no sense to me...it wouldn't surprise me if he's our best starter to you in another month. *****...I'll be ****ing pissed if Freddy goes ANYWHERE.

SouthSoxFan
07-14-2006, 01:01 PM
Which pitcher you want to keep?

113.2 IP, 66 K, 28 BB, 20 HR, 130 H
108.1 IP, 86 K, 28 BB, 10 HR, 118 H

Chicken Dinner
07-14-2006, 01:04 PM
:hawk
I Luv it when you speculate and analyze.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 01:19 PM
And where the hell are you pulling this Schmidt for Garcia/prospect crap from? First, you just made it up; and second, that trade makes no sense from the Giants side...sounds like a Cubs fan's proposal to me.
They probably wouldn't do it but:
One's signed, one isn't.; You take deep discounts when peddling rentees. Garcia's a good pitcher.

CYGarland20
07-14-2006, 01:34 PM
This is a tough choice between giving up Freddy or Vazquez. On one hand i love Freddy, and he was a big reason we were able to win a world series last year, but on the other hand, his stuff has dropped dramatically, and that is a major concern for me. Now i know he's been a big game pitcher, but when your throwing mediocre fastballs and hanging sliders, eventually your going to get bombed, and I'm afraid that's what happened to him so far, and might get worse for him in the 2nd half. With his current stuff he needs to locate better, and get the ball down more consistently to succeed..........Now as for Javy, this guy is an enigma. He's had 2 near no hitters, and has looked great going into the 5th inning in a few games, but then he starts giving up a ton of hits out of nowhere, its as if he's tipping his pitches. Of course he also throws alot of mistakes down the middle as well. His stuff is there, but he needs to focus more, and make more quality pitches............With that being said, it would appear that Javy is the pitcher to keep, but unfortunately, i cant say i would trust him in a big game......

RealMenWearBlack
07-14-2006, 01:39 PM
The most discouraging thing about Javy to me is that his problems all seem to be mental. If it were mechanical like Jose's were, maybe we'd have seen some improvement by now. But they're not, and I personally don't believe that any pitching coach on the planet can get a guy to succeed when he refuses to trust himself.

I'm not sure how valid my point is because I'm not exactly sure how a major league pitcher thinks, but wouldn't trading Garcia instead of Vazquez help with Vazquez's confidence because the Sox are showing more faith in him than someone who has proven himself during the playoffs.

oeo
07-14-2006, 01:41 PM
They probably wouldn't do it but:
One's signed, one isn't.; You take deep discounts when peddling rentees. Garcia's a good pitcher.
Any team in that division has a chance to win it. The Giants would be stupid to trade their ace. Freddy is a good pitcher, but I don't think he would be able to fill a void left by Schmidt. I mean, of course, I would do that trade in a second, because you'd be ripping off the Giants. But that's not even the discussion, the discussion is about trading Freddy for a reliever...which is STUPID.

ZombieRob
07-14-2006, 01:43 PM
Garcia is horrible ,simply look at the stats .You want to go by win totals like Dr Don said .Then your nuts.Good pitching will beat good hitting all the time just like the Sox pitching did last year . So what happens oeo the great and all knowing is going to happen when in the playoffs when we have to face real good pitching? And our starters are mediocre at best .And as far as Garland ,i'd take him anytime over Garcia at this point in the careers .Garland has way more upside ,and i have always stuck by Garland and his potential to be a decent pitcher .

churlish
07-14-2006, 01:55 PM
August 1st can't get here fast enough.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 01:55 PM
I'm not sure how valid my point is because I'm not exactly sure how a major league pitcher thinks, but wouldn't trading Garcia instead of Vazquez help with Vazquez's confidence because the Sox are showing more faith in him than someone who has proven himself during the playoffs.

You could also say that his confidence should have been boosted when the Sox traded three players including a top prospect to have him help defend their Wold Series championship.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 01:59 PM
What does Soler have? His stats are far from spectacular. It looks like he walks a lot of guys and gives up quite a few hits without getting very many strikeouts. You think he can help the team now?

He can be the last guy in our bullpen, which is all you're asking for from El Duque. And Soler actually has a future. He had several good outings before getting rocked in consecutive outings by the Red Sox and Yankees on the road. In his 4th start in the majors, Soler pitched a complete game shutout 2 hitter. Soler is only 26 and has a future as a possible quality middle of the rotation type guy. His stuff isn't as good as his former teammate Contreras, but perhaps getting on the same team as Jose would help him transition to the big leagues.

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 02:02 PM
Thank god Kenny is running the show. He will not do anything rash like trading one of our starters. Push comes to shove you always hang on to your pitching.

But the mere talk of shopping Freddy and Javy will really motivate these guys. Look for a big july for both. They both love being sox and will do what it takes to stay on the south side.

Kenny will play it cool for most of the month-evaluate our team and pick up what we need without giving away key guys- like Jose last year.

I say we take another look at Sean Tracy.
I don't know why so many people seem to think it's beyond reason that Kenny would trade Freddy or Vazquez, especially when reports have Kenny being the one calling to say these guys are available. We all know that one of our starters will be gone before 07. Kenny has even said so much publically, something he rarely does. So why not trade one of them now if you can get value? Look at it this way. If we hold on to all 5 starters now and look to trade one in the offseason, what are we going to try to trade them for? Well, you can eliminate the positions of 3B, 1B, RF, CF, C and 2B. So of hitting positions, SS and LF would probably be the only positions we might look to trade one for. We're not going to trade one for another starter. So in the offseason, we'd be looking to trade them for a reliever and prospects. If we can do the same trade now, and improve our chances to win another World Series this year, why wait?

Baby Fisk
07-14-2006, 02:08 PM
Mccoydp looks like he has aol chat in his favorites is that were you pick up all your hot dates ? The house on wheels type of web chicks no doubt :wink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content/images/2005/06/17/dalek_lead_203x152.jpg
*observing silently*

Jjav829
07-14-2006, 02:08 PM
Heliman isn't squat... he's not even close to a lock down set-up man. He's a middle reliever. He's worth Ross Gload.
Sanchez is okay against NL competition, but he's not that great either. PItched about like Matt Thornton has in the AL this year - which is good, but, you know, let me ask this - could WE get a starter for Matt Thonton? We'd be laughed off the phone.

On Edit, Looking at their blog, I also see some suggestions that they throw in Chad Bradford as a sweetener. LOL

The most interesting thing on that blog is that someone said "their bullpen's pretty good"...and he's right, it is pretty good. We've got several pitchers as good as Heilman or Sanchez in our pen.

I'm guessing you are exaggerating to make a point, but Aaron Heilman is sure as hell worth a lot more than Ross Gload.

We have a right handed setup man as good as Sanchez? Where? :?:

And what do you mean by Sanchez isn't that great either? There really is no such thing as a "great" middle reliever. It sort of comes with the position. "Great" middle relievers become closers or starters.

mccoydp
07-14-2006, 02:13 PM
Where's the part about how much you love Willie Harris and how you'd just die if D'Angelo Jimenez came back to play second base?

In part two, to be continued...:cool:

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 02:13 PM
Garcia is horrible ,simply look at the stats .You want to go by win totals like Dr Don said .Then your nuts.Good pitching will beat good hitting all the time just like the Sox pitching did last year . So what happens oeo the great and all knowing is going to happen when in the playoffs when we have to face real good pitching? And our starters are mediocre at best .And as far as Garland ,i'd take him anytime over Garcia at this point in the careers .Garland has way more upside ,and i have always stuck by Garland and his potential to be a decent pitcher .

Okay lets look at the stats, but the ones that matter:

18 total starts. Of those, 10 have been quality starts. Of the other 8, he won two games, had one no decision, and lost five. So, if he had run support for every quality start, he would be 12-5 right now.

His bad starts have been pretty bad, but for a guy to go out and give his team a chance to win 13 out of 18 times (72% of the time) he has to be doing something right.

Freddy has come up big again and again in his short time with our Sox, and if we trade him we lose that big game pitcher. One bad year does not a career make.

Seriously, here you are talking about Jason Schmidt like he's so much better than Garcia, but it was only last year that Schmidt was having a bad year and people were skeptical about trading for him because they feared his velocity could have been lost forever.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 02:18 PM
He can be the last guy in our bullpen, which is all you're asking for from El Duque. And Soler actually has a future. He had several good outings before getting rocked in consecutive outings by the Red Sox and Yankees on the road. In his 4th start in the majors, Soler pitched a complete game shutout 2 hitter. Soler is only 26 and has a future as a possible quality middle of the rotation type guy. His stuff isn't as good as his former teammate Contreras, but perhaps getting on the same team as Jose would help him transition to the big leagues.

I see. Well, then lets get him too.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 02:19 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content/images/2005/06/17/dalek_lead_203x152.jpg
*observing silently*What's the over/under on this one? Do you think 30 is too high?

rowand33
07-14-2006, 02:20 PM
Garcia or Javy to the Phillies for Tom Gordon, David Dellucci, and a prospect.

PushnThaEscalade
07-14-2006, 02:31 PM
Garcia or Javy to the Phillies for Tom Gordon, David Dellucci, and a prospect.

Is that a rumor, suggestion, or actual fact?

getonbckthr
07-14-2006, 03:12 PM
Back on topic.......

If we are gonna deal a starter we better get a king's ransom in return. If the Mets want him the discussion starts with Milledge, he's not available see you later. Personally a deal I want is Vazquez, Uribe, Sweeney and Rogowski for Tejada and Hawkins. If you make that deal then you can bounce BMAC into the rotation, Tracey into the bullpen and trade Politte for whatever you can get.

Chisox003
07-14-2006, 03:17 PM
Back on topic.......

If we are gonna deal a starter we better get a king's ransom in return. If the Mets want him the discussion starts with Milledge, he's not available see you later. Personally a deal I want is Vazquez, Uribe, Sweeney and Rogowski for Tejada and Hawkins. If you make that deal then you can bounce Fingernails on a blackboard into the rotation, Tracey into the bullpen and trade Politte for whatever you can get.
Every trade you "want" is something out of MVP on PS2.

Now back on topic...

I'd love to see a Duaner Sanchez or Tom Gordon in the pen. I still think with time Coop *could* turn Javy into a stud, but if he can bring in top bullpen help like these guys, plus gettin Mac into the rotation, I'm all in.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 03:19 PM
Back on topic.......

If we are gonna deal a starter we better get a king's ransom in return. If the Mets want him the discussion starts with Milledge, he's not available see you later. Personally a deal I want is Vazquez, Uribe, Sweeney and Rogowski for Tejada and Hawkins. If you make that deal then you can bounce Fingernails on a blackboard into the rotation, Tracey into the bullpen and trade Politte for whatever you can get.Once again, starting pitching is the most valuable baseball commodity there is, and the Sox have them stockpiled. The Yankees just signed Sidney Freaking Ponson...sorry, SIR Sidney Freaking Ponson off the scrap heap. What do you think THEY would give for Freddy Garcia (assuming they had anything to give). The Cardinals signed Jeff Weaver and they STILL need another starter. A king's ransom would be cheap. Kenny is in the catbird seat and loving every minute of it.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 03:21 PM
Back on topic.......

If we are gonna deal a starter we better get a king's ransom in return. If the Mets want him the discussion starts with Milledge, he's not available see you later. Personally a deal I want is Vazquez, Uribe, Sweeney and Rogowski for Tejada and Hawkins. If you make that deal then you can bounce Fingernails on a blackboard into the rotation, Tracey into the bullpen and trade Politte for whatever you can get.

NO!!! I don't want some ex-Cub ****ing up a perfectly good team. Besides, we already have enough offense. Now if you're talking about Javy for Bedard and a prospect or something then maybe, but you do that in the offseason.

thomas35forever
07-14-2006, 03:23 PM
Since this is the most likely World Series matchup at this point in the season, they shouldn't really help each other out because the team that would lose this matchup would regret helping the other out.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 03:34 PM
I'm with ON2 on this one. With the dung at the bottom of the starting rotations of most of the GOOD teams out there, I think we're DRASTICALLY undervaluing proven starting pitching on the open market. Again, the NEW YORK YANKEES just picked up SIDNEY PONSON. That's an "enough said" type of situation.

Minnie Me
07-14-2006, 03:35 PM
Would you do it?

102605
07-14-2006, 03:36 PM
and trade Politte for whatever you can get.

Perhaps a bucket of balls for batting practice.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 03:36 PM
Would you do it?Straight up? Are you nuts?

Minnie Me
07-14-2006, 03:38 PM
Remember that we wants to win now. Gordon is All Star this year.

getonbckthr
07-14-2006, 03:41 PM
Once again, starting pitching is the most valuable baseball commodity there is, and the Sox have them stockpiled. The Yankees just signed Sidney Freaking Ponson...sorry, SIR Sidney Freaking Ponson off the scrap heap. What do you think THEY would give for Freddy Garcia (assuming they had anything to give). The Cardinals signed Jeff Weaver and they STILL need another starter. A king's ransom would be cheap. Kenny is in the catbird seat and loving every minute of it.
I agree with you. We can get an insane amount for one of our starters. What i'm saying is if the Mets want 1 Milledge better be one of the names coming in return.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 03:44 PM
I agree with you. We can get an insane amount for one of our starters. What i'm saying is if the Mets want 1 Milledge better be one of the names coming in return.

Why? I want BA in CF and Dye extended as our RF for another 2-3 years. We'll need a lead-off hitter.

Minnie Me
07-14-2006, 03:46 PM
I agree with you. We can get an insane amount for one of our starters. What i'm saying is if the Mets want 1 Milledge better be one of the names coming in return.

How about ex-sox Chad Bradford and Royce Ring plus Gordon?

sullythered
07-14-2006, 03:47 PM
Remember that we wants to win now. Gordon is All Star this year.
He's also nearly 40.

I only answer the phone from the Mets if they start with Milledge and a very good relief pitcher for Javy. I would definitely want more than that, but there's a good starting point.

getonbckthr
07-14-2006, 03:48 PM
Why? I want BA in CF and Dye extended as our RF for another 2-3 years. We'll need a lead-off hitter.
I don't just want Milledge. Maybe Milledge and Heilmann and another prospect. If they want a starter so bad pay for it.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 03:49 PM
I agree with you. We can get an insane amount for one of our starters. What i'm saying is if the Mets want 1 Milledge better be one of the names coming in return.I don't know if you could get Milledge AND a quality reliever. It would depend on how desperate the Mets are. Right now they're coasting to the division championship, so they don't need to worry about that, and they only need 4 starters for the playoffs. By then Pedro will be back and they also have Glavine, Trachsel, Hernandez and Zambrano, so they don't look that desperate to me.

PKalltheway
07-14-2006, 03:49 PM
I wouldn't trade either one of them. Period.

oeo
07-14-2006, 03:53 PM
Garcia is horrible ,simply look at the stats .You want to go by win totals like Dr Don said .Then your nuts.Good pitching will beat good hitting all the time just like the Sox pitching did last year . So what happens oeo the great and all knowing is going to happen when in the playoffs when we have to face real good pitching? And our starters are mediocre at best .And as far as Garland ,i'd take him anytime over Garcia at this point in the careers .Garland has way more upside ,and i have always stuck by Garland and his potential to be a decent pitcher .

Our pitching isn't mediocre. Sure, they've underachieved so far this year, but who's to say that they're going to pitch like this the rest of the season. You don't know...I've seen this rotation kick ass, so I know what they're capable.

And what's with the name-calling? Your profile says you were born in 1969...are you sure?

getonbckthr
07-14-2006, 03:54 PM
I wouldn't trade either one of them. Period.
KW is gonna move one of them after the season anyways. Mccarthy can pitch just as well as both of them are now. So knowing that dealing them now will get you a bigger return than in November or December. I would rather look at teams like the Brewers, Phils, Reds the whole NL West. Those teams, I think, are more likely to make a mistake and give up the farm for the oppertunity to get a quality starter to make the playoffs.

oeo
07-14-2006, 04:00 PM
KW is gonna move one of them after the season anyways. Mccarthy can pitch just as well as both of them are now. So knowing that dealing them now will get you a bigger return than in November or December. I would rather look at teams like the Brewers, Phils, Reds the whole NL West. Those teams, I think, are more likely to make a mistake and give up the farm for the oppertunity to get a quality starter to make the playoffs.
Trading for more talent...fine. Trading them for a reliever...no thanks. Starting pitching is more valuable than relieving pitching. Javier Vazquez for Heilman...? No way...you don't trade starting pitching for bullpen guys because you never know what you're going to get out of the guy, they're just too inconsistent.

If Kenny trades either one of them, it should be for more than a reliever. Kenny may have talked to the Mets, but who he's really looking at, I'm sure nobody knows.

getonbckthr
07-14-2006, 04:02 PM
Kenny may have talked to the Mets, but who he's really looking at, I'm sure nobody knows.
This is very interesting. Is KW slipping the Mets out there to trigger other NL teams to step in and block NY by gving the SOx not only the farm but their first born as well.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 04:03 PM
KW is gonna move one of them after the season anyways. Mccarthy can pitch just as well as both of them are now. So knowing that dealing them now will get you a bigger return than in November or December. I would rather look at teams like the Brewers, Phils, Reds the whole NL West. Those teams, I think, are more likely to make a mistake and give up the farm for the oppertunity to get a quality starter to make the playoffs.Kenny is shopping Garcia and Vazquez. There's a big difference between "shopping" and "trading". He's just dangling them out there to see what teams will offer. If he gets a good enough offer, he'll make a deal, but he doesn't have to deal and everyone knows it, which puts him in the best possible negotiating position. It's very possible nothing will come of it.

WSox8404
07-14-2006, 04:14 PM
Kenny is shopping Garcia and Vazquez. There's a big difference between "shopping" and "trading". He's just dangling them out there to see what teams will offer. If he gets a good enough offer, he'll make a deal, but he doesn't have to deal and everyone knows it, which puts him in the best possible negotiating position. It's very possible nothing will come of it.

You know damn well that there are going to be good offers out there. That National League is there for the taking and a lot of teams need a pitcher. And don't forget to lower Javy's or Freddy's ERA to about 4 and 3.5 respectively once they get over there. The Mets, Cardinals, and well I can go on and on but most of the teams in contention over there can use another starter. One more quality starter for any of those teams can put them over the top. Now its just a matter of what they want to give up.

Beautox
07-14-2006, 04:15 PM
Remember that we wants to win now. Gordon is All Star this year.
THATS NOT KW'S GOAL!, man some people on this board should watch spring training games sometimes on comcast and stop talking out of their ass, you would learn alot about the inner workings of the white sox FO. Kenny has said time and time again that 1917 is now just a banner on the South Side, and that instant gratification is no longer needed. Longevity is what were going for, from here on out.

Kenny has said they've adopted the braves philosophy of brining in young talent when viable, so think about that for a second. Next year our bullpen will most likely will have either of these two in for long relief Tracey/Phillips, and Long will be around shortly possibly after the ASG game of 07. thats just the BP. We also have conundrum with Fields and Sweeney in years to come.

Pitching is at premium sub .500 pitches with electric stuff, are getting paid ridiculous amounts of money, and here you want to give Garcia or Vazquez away for an allstar closer(when we already have one!), that will make a fair amount of money for that role in Philly but would over paid for that position on the Chi Sox(seeing how he would set up for Jenks) thats crazy, that almost Buster Olney crazy.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 04:23 PM
You know damn well that there are going to be good offers out there. That National League is there for the taking and a lot of teams need a pitcher. And don't forget to lower Javy's or Freddy's ERA to about 4 and 3.5 respectively once they get over there. The Mets, Cardinals, and well I can go on and on but most of the teams in contention over there can use another starter. One more quality starter for any of those teams can put them over the top. Now its just a matter of what they want to give up.Of course there will. Kenny can just sit back and let them bid against each other. What's more, I think that while we were all wondering last winter what he was going to do with six starters, this is the way he planned it from the beginning. He gets McCarthy into the rotation mid-season so he can have him reasonably fresh for the post season and he's got plenty of trade capital for mid-season moves.

The guy's ****ing brilliant.

Kwrubac
07-14-2006, 04:28 PM
Maybe it's just me but everyone seems to be Garcia biased, I keep hearing people referring to Freddy as a "big game pitcher", unfortunately we need to win games against teams like Kansas City and Cleveland in order to have a shot at winning the division. Freddy doesn't seem to have the same stuff that he had last year and I'm fairly sure I could steal a base on him. By him being slow to the plate he allows runner's to get into scoring position and does not have the same electric stuff Jose has to prevent those runs from scoring. I think the stats speak for themselves, Freddy needs to go, keep Javy

Stats:

Home Runs:

FG: 20
JV: 10

Strike Outs:

FG: 66
JV: 86

Stolen Bases Allowed:

FG: 25
JV: 6

sullythered
07-14-2006, 04:34 PM
Stats:

Home Runs:

FG: 20
JV: 10

Strike Outs:

FG: 66
JV: 86

Stolen Bases Allowed:

FG: 25
JV: 6
ALDS, ALCS, WORLD SERIES clinchers:

FG: 3
JV: 0

You cannot underestimate the importance of clutch play over statistics. (see Hernandez, Orlando)

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 04:38 PM
ALDS, ALCS, WORLD SERIES clinchers:

FG: 3
JV: 0

You cannot underestimate the importance of clutch play over statistics. (see Hernandez, Orlando)You cannot assume he'll do it again. (see Wells, David)

credefan24
07-14-2006, 04:39 PM
You can use statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 04:45 PM
You cannot assume he'll do it again. (see Wells, David)
You cannot assume anything. What you can do is make an educated choice by observing whether or not people have succeeded in the past in high-pressure situations.

Just because you can't assume it, doesn't mean you can't use the past as an influence on decision making.

Also, David Wells got fat and injured. He hasn't ever been the same since.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 04:52 PM
You cannot assume anything. What you can do is make an educated choice by observing whether or not people have succeeded in the past in high-pressure situations.

Just because you can't assume it, doesn't mean you can't use the past as an influence on decision making.

Also, David Wells got fat and injured. He hasn't ever been the same since.Freddy has decided he's a junk ball pitcher and he hasn't been the same since, either.

Sure previous playoff success matters, but it's only a small piece, and one of the most over-rated pieces, IMO. The White Sox were supposed to fold last year because they had very little playoff experience. I'll take talent over experience, and from what I can see, Vazquez has more of it.

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 04:53 PM
You cannot assume he'll do it again. (see Wells, David)

You also can't assume that he won't. And you also can't assume that just because a guy has an electric arm that he will realize his potential. (see Vazquez, Javier)

I do agree though that Kenny isn't going to make a stupid deal. Hopefully by tomorrow there will be rumors about San Diego, St. Louis, Houston, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, etc. also looking to make a deal. The Mets are probably the most realistic option, but it sure wouldn't hurt to drive up the price some more.

Vazquez and Garcia have to immediately be the best options of any pitcher available simply because they are signed through next year, so hopefully Kenny gets the chance to really get something good.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 04:54 PM
You also can't assume that he won't. And you also can't assume that just because a guy has an electric arm that he will realize his potential. (see Vazquez, Javier)

I do agree though that Kenny isn't going to make a stupid deal. Hopefully by tomorrow there will be rumors about San Diego, St. Louis, Houston, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, etc. also looking to make a deal. The Mets are probably the most realistic option, but it sure wouldn't hurt to drive up the price some more.

Vazquez and Garcia have to immediately be the best options of any pitcher available simply because they are signed through next year, so hopefully Kenny gets the chance to really get something good.Let the bidding begin!:bandance:

The Immigrant
07-14-2006, 04:56 PM
Also, David Wells got fat and injured. He hasn't ever been the same since.

:XL

"I'm big-boned."

Kwrubac
07-14-2006, 04:57 PM
:XL

"I'm big-boned."

Also a case of hypothyroidism...

Sox-o-matic
07-14-2006, 05:00 PM
Also a case of hypothyroidism...

...And a case a beer...

...And a few more excuses, too.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 05:02 PM
:XL

"I'm big-boned."
:D: Nice.

In truth, I don't want either of these guys moved unless it's a deal that makes me call all my friends and exclaim, "Holy crap, did you see who we got for Javy/Freddy?!?!"

My argument for Freddy's slight advantage is kind of like the Billy Beane vs. Grinderball baseball theory. I know one guy knows how to do it and do it the right way. The other guy is like John Favreau (sp?) in "Swingers." He's got these fangs and these claws and he's sitting there wondering how to kill the bunny.

That, and if Javy rolls one more friggin' curve ball on 1 - 2 count when he has a dominating slider...:angry:

WSox8404
07-14-2006, 05:02 PM
Of course there will. Kenny can just sit back and let them bid against each other. What's more, I think that while we were all wondering last winter what he was going to do with six starters, this is the way he planned it from the beginning. He gets McCarthy into the rotation mid-season so he can have him reasonably fresh for the post season and he's got plenty of trade capital for mid-season moves.

The guy's ****ing brilliant.


Yep. I was going to post the same thing. Everyone was expecting KW to trade one of them before the year started, but now is the time to trade one of them. Now teams realilze their starting pitching is not adequate enough to sustain a playoff run. Before the year started, most teams were guardedly optimistic about their staffs. It is just natural to feel that way. Trade value is very, very high at this time of year every year. And it just so happens with the NL being down, there are more teams to get involved, which will make that pitcher's value that much higher. We are in a position to really make a great deal and I know we will. It's just a matter of when and not if if you ask me. And I cannot wait to hear what we got.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 05:07 PM
My argument for Freddy's slight advantage is kind of like the Billy Beane vs. Grinderball baseball theory. I know one guy knows how to do it and do it the right way. The other guy is like John Favreau (sp?) in "Swingers." He's got these fangs and these claws and he's sitting there wondering how to kill the bunny.:mg: Have you considered therapy?:wink:

CADIEUXGR
07-14-2006, 05:09 PM
That really is a tough one - while I admit that Javy & Freddy have been under "Expectations", what you're basically saying is choosing between Brandon & Javy OR Brandon and Freddy. At least in my opinion, I'm not goin' with Brandon, when the others are also choices.

But Like I always say: I have faith in God, my children, and Kenny Williams & Ozzie Guillen!!! They'll figure out the "Right" thing........
:)

sullythered
07-14-2006, 05:10 PM
:mg: Have you considered therapy?:wink:
I think (if you've seen the movie) the analogy is apt.:smile:

Javy's got all the tools, with no idea how to implement them.

Ol' No. 2
07-14-2006, 05:15 PM
I think (if you've seen the movie) the analogy is apt.:smile:

Javy's got all the tools, with no idea how to implement them.I haven't...and I think I'll pass.

As to the second thing, that was basically Contreras' situation, too. That's what Cooper does, and he's the best in the business. Plus, if they can get Vazquez pitching like he can, that, on top of Contreras, will drive Yankees fans nuts and piss off Steinbrenner something fierce.:smile::smile::smile:

Kwrubac
07-14-2006, 05:19 PM
As to the second thing, that was basically Contreras' situation, too. That's what Cooper does, and he's the best in the business.

Exactly!! Freddy appears to have lost his most important tool (i.e. his fastball) Don't get me wrong I love Freddy, but it looks like he's not going to be the same. Also, I understand the logic behind past experience is a good indicator of what could be expected in the future, then again I don't see anyone applying that to Politte. You can't really pick and choose who that applies too.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 05:22 PM
As to the second thing, that was basically Contreras' situation, too. That's what Cooper does, and he's the best in the business. Plus, if they can get Vazquez pitching like he can, that, on top of Contreras, will drive Yankees fans nuts and piss off Steinbrenner something fierce.:smile::smile::smile:
Seeing as how I was making basically the same argument a couple days ago, I can't really find fault in that logic today. And it would be sweet to see the Yankee fan reactions.:D:

A few weeks ago on Sportscenter, the kinda baldish, tall, bespectacled anchor was talking about Jose and slyly said, "boy the Yankees could sure use a pitcher like him." Classic.

SouthSoxFan
07-14-2006, 05:26 PM
I don't just want Milledge. Maybe Milledge and Heilmann and another prospect. If they want a starter so bad pay for it.

I only answer the phone from the Mets if they start with Milledge and a very good relief pitcher for Javy. I would definitely want more than that, but there's a good starting point.

If the Mets want to part with Milledge, they ain't looking at our #4/#5 starters. I suspect they'd have Dontrelle Willis on top of the shopping list. Jason Schmidt and even Barry Zito for 3 months would be more attractive than Javy or Freddy.

sullythered
07-14-2006, 05:31 PM
If the Mets want to part with Milledge, they ain't looking at our #4/#5 starters. I suspect they'd have Dontrelle Willis on top of the shopping list. Jason Schmidt and even Barry Zito for 3 months would be more attractive than Javy or Freddy.
My point was that I wouldn't part with our guys for less. If they don't want to deal Milledge for Javy/Freddy, fine. That doesn't mean we need to accept less.

A. Cavatica
07-14-2006, 07:26 PM
As I've said elsewhere, it's preordained that we'll be trading a starter and putting McCarthy in the rotation. McCarthy is ready to be a big winner now, and he's young and cheap and locked up for years; that counts for a lot in any rational plan. Garcia seems to have lost velocity and, frankly, is pitching like a guy with substance abuse issues. Vazquez puts up the same numbers as Garcia (except for more strikeouts) and has been an enigma since he left Montreal. I completely believe the rumor that these guys are available -- but I think Garland and even Buehrle could be available in a blockbuster deal.

Another poster points out that KW wants to build a dynasty now that the Series monkey is off the team's back. I think that's also true, but KW is not going to do anything that risks this year's title run. The deal has to improve the team this year and for the future.

See the 'play GM' thread in the Clubhouse for what I think we need this year. What we need for the future is a much harder puzzle. The pitching staff is in great shape, with the starters locked up for 2 years, prospects on the way and a bullpen where the key guys are young and cheap (Jenks, Cotts, Thornton). We're grooming Fields and Sweeney to replace Crede and Dye. But this is probably Podsednik's last year as our LF/leadoff hitter (unless he turns his season around); we don't have a kid catcher anywhere near the majors; we haven't seen enough of Valido to know he can replace Uribe; etc.

Therefore a trade of Garcia or Vazquez for a topnotch reliever, a top prospect (leadoff hitter/middle infielder or catcher) and a lesser pitching prospect seems like the recipe.

Jurr
07-14-2006, 07:38 PM
As I've said elsewhere, it's preordained that we'll be trading a starter and putting McCarthy in the rotation. McCarthy is ready to be a big winner now, and he's young and cheap and locked up for years; that counts for a lot in any rational plan. Garcia seems to have lost velocity and, frankly, is pitching like a guy with substance abuse issues. Vazquez puts up the same numbers as Garcia (except for more strikeouts) and has been an enigma since he left Montreal. I completely believe the rumor that these guys are available -- but I think Garland and even Buehrle could be available in a blockbuster deal.

Another poster points out that KW wants to build a dynasty now that the Series monkey is off the team's back. I think that's also true, but KW is not going to do anything that risks this year's title run. The deal has to improve the team this year and for the future.

See the 'play GM' thread in the Clubhouse for what I think we need this year. What we need for the future is a much harder puzzle. The pitching staff is in great shape, with the starters locked up for 2 years, prospects on the way and a bullpen where the key guys are young and cheap (Jenks, Cotts, Thornton). We're grooming Fields and Sweeney to replace Crede and Dye. But this is probably Podsednik's last year as our LF/leadoff hitter (unless he turns his season around); we don't have a kid catcher anywhere near the majors; we haven't seen enough of Valido to know he can replace Uribe; etc.

Therefore a trade of Garcia or Vazquez for a topnotch reliever, a top prospect (leadoff hitter/middle infielder or catcher) and a lesser pitching prospect seems like the recipe.
Well friggin' said. Sell high, buy low. Other teams need these guys, and the toll of many seasons of 200 innings pitched cannot be understated. If you can make that "3 year roster list" a lot better and still keep the WS dreams alive, you make that move.

However, as soon as he would, Buerhle or Garland would go down for the year, and we'd be throwing up for weeks.

Tragg
07-14-2006, 07:45 PM
I'm guessing you are exaggerating to make a point, but Aaron Heilman is sure as hell worth a lot more than Ross Gload.

We have a right handed setup man as good as Sanchez? Where? :?:

And what do you mean by Sanchez isn't that great either? There really is no such thing as a "great" middle reliever. It sort of comes with the position. "Great" middle relievers become closers or starters.
Okay, let's take a look at some FACTS:
Sanchez - WHIP - 1.24; ERA 2.54 against NL competition
Heilman - WHIP - 1.31; ERA 4.35 against NL competition
Now:
Thornton - WHIP 1.23; 3.58 against AL competition
MCarthy - WHIP 1.23; ERA 4.25 against AL competition
Cotts: - WHIP 1.09; ERA 2.95 against AL competition
Riske - WHIP c. 1.16; ERA 2.75 against AL competition

ALL of those 4 are clearly better than Heilman and all are arguably better than Sanchez, who is pitching against weaker competition and has a higher WHIP than all 4 of our pitchers. Heilman is no help whatsoever (note his career ERA is 4.59 and WHIP is 1.39 - if one of our pitchers pitched like he does, we'd be dying to get rid of him...when I typed Gload I was exaggerating a bit, but, now that I look at it closer, I don't think I was).
I realize that middle relievers are, by definition, not that great; the exception is a a young pitcher and/or set up guy who will be a closer soon. Sanchez ain't that. He's on his 3rd team in 3 years.

Now that I look at it, 4 bullpen pitchers of that quality is pretty darn good.

EMel9281
07-14-2006, 09:09 PM
I saw somewhere (probably in this thread) that if KW could pull a deal off w/ Philly, getting ARow back and Tom Gordon, for hopefully Javy, prospect, and $$. I think w/ four GOOD relievers, Cotts, Thornton, Riske, and Jenks, Gordon would solve all bullpen questions.

Gordon is a question of whether he would accept a setup role again or if he wants to close only. And, ARow, yeah, he's not a spring chicken anymore, but we need a more viable alternative at CF than Anderson and Macko. I always thought that Macko was brought here to backup Crede at 3B, not platoon in CF.

So, ARow comes back, Anderson becomes the 4th OF and Macko is the backup for Crede. Or Anderson goes down, because (I think according to my plan) there will be on odd man out on the bench. BA goes down for a little while and comes back in September.

However, until anything DOES happen, I'll sit back w/ and watch...

eurotrash35
07-14-2006, 09:09 PM
uh, what? they just mentioned this on the postgame. I don't know about this. for relievers no less.

y2j2785
07-14-2006, 09:13 PM
If we need relief pitching so bad why not bring up Tim Redding :rolleyes:

eurotrash35
07-14-2006, 09:15 PM
I can't believe this was in what's the score. this doesn't seem like your run of the mill rumor.

DSpivack
07-14-2006, 09:21 PM
I can't believe this was in what's the score. this doesn't seem like your run of the mill rumor.

WTS is exactly where rumors should go.

Brian26
07-14-2006, 09:23 PM
Melton just mentioned that Philadelphia makes the most sense, because you have guys named: Abreu, Rowand, and Gordon.

Law11
07-14-2006, 09:23 PM
You can use statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.


Brian: "They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works everytime."
Ron: "That doesn't make sense.":kneeslap:

eurotrash35
07-14-2006, 09:26 PM
WTS is exactly where rumors should go.

doesn't seem like the fact that we're shopping two starters is a rumor anymore though.

CLR01
07-14-2006, 09:34 PM
uh, what? they just mentioned this on the postgame. I don't know about this. for relievers no less.

http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/search.gif
(http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/search.gif)

eurotrash35
07-14-2006, 09:46 PM
http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/search.gif
(http://whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/search.gif)

search thiiiiis :D:

DaGame2584
07-14-2006, 09:50 PM
Do you guys think this is a possible trade? Or is this more XBOX?

JV/Garcia for Milledge, Sanchez, and Lindstorm(RP from the minors)

Domeshot17
07-15-2006, 01:03 AM
was thinking of this on the long drive home from my dads in dixon (bout 2 hours) actually 4, there and back. I think it has potential.

If its the mets. Hielmann is a guy who has a great arm, and never harnished it. Never had the coaching to really compete him, and NYM have jerked him so many ways he just isnt a fit there. Sanchez is a very nice set up man. I think with Zito staying in Oakland, Schmidt most likey in SF, and Dontrelle comanding much more, getting milledge out of the mets might not be out of the question. You know Kdubs has phase 2 also, which may (my own thinking here) look something like this

White Sox Get: Lastings, Sanchez, Hielmann
Mets get: Freddy, Politte, B Spec

THEN

White Sox get: Willis (and if super deek pink existed, Miguel Cabrera)
Marlins get: Anderson Or Milldredge (I have no idea how to spell his name), Owens, Fields, Rogowski, Heager, maybe sweeney
Cabrera moves to LF, position he is very natural with, and Pods shifts to center. Pods has the speed to be a pretty decent CF, just not the arm. But if it meant Cabrera and Willis, Im all for it.

Might also lead to a andruw jones deal, abreu, who knows. This could also be just smoke and mirrors. Kenny has been known to do that. I wouldn't be suprised if Freddy is dealt. He is just about done, his arm isnt there anymore, I don't know if its a natural decline, maybe lack of worth ethic, but like many others have said, Sell him very high right now, before he becomes just another throw in.

DSpivack
07-15-2006, 01:56 AM
yadda yadda yadda

Do you guys think this is a possible trade? Or is this more XBOX?

DING DING DING!

We have a winner.

bayzbol44
07-15-2006, 07:26 AM
was thinking of this on the long drive home from my dads in dixon (bout 2 hours) actually 4, there and back. I think it has potential.

If its the mets. Hielmann is a guy who has a great arm, and never harnished it. Never had the coaching to really compete him, and NYM have jerked him so many ways he just isnt a fit there. Sanchez is a very nice set up man. I think with Zito staying in Oakland, Schmidt most likey in SF, and Dontrelle comanding much more, getting milledge out of the mets might not be out of the question. You know Kdubs has phase 2 also, which may (my own thinking here) look something like this

White Sox Get: Lastings, Sanchez, Hielmann
Mets get: Freddy, Politte, B Spec

THEN

White Sox get: Willis (and if super deek pink existed, Miguel Cabrera)
Marlins get: Anderson Or Milldredge (I have no idea how to spell his name), Owens, Fields, Rogowski, Heager, maybe sweeney
Cabrera moves to LF, position he is very natural with, and Pods shifts to center. Pods has the speed to be a pretty decent CF, just not the arm. But if it meant Cabrera and Willis, Im all for it.

Might also lead to a andruw jones deal, abreu, who knows. This could also be just smoke and mirrors. Kenny has been known to do that. I wouldn't be suprised if Freddy is dealt. He is just about done, his arm isnt there anymore, I don't know if its a natural decline, maybe lack of worth ethic, but like many others have said, Sell him very high right now, before he becomes just another throw in.

Wow, that is one long drive home if you came up with that stuff. :D:

eurotrash35
07-15-2006, 08:52 AM
we need to have a post stickied at the top of every forum stating that pods is not and will not ever be a CFer

Ol' No. 2
07-15-2006, 09:26 AM
Do you guys think this is a possible trade? Or is this more XBOX?

JV/Garcia for Milledge, Sanchez, and Lindstorm(RP from the minors)Not that trade, but you might if you sweetened the deal with a prospect. People have been talking about Vazquez/Garcia for players A, B and C, but the Sox have several prime prospects who are pretty well blocked right now. Fields, Rogowski, Owens and Sweeney top the list. Package one of them with JV/FG and you have a pretty compelling package.

Tragg
07-15-2006, 10:55 AM
Not that trade, but you might if you sweetened the deal with a prospect. People have been talking about Vazquez/Garcia for players A, B and C, but the Sox have several prime prospects who are pretty well blocked right now. Fields, Rogowski, Owens and Sweeney top the list. Package one of them with JV/FG and you have a pretty compelling package.
To get a really good package, package one of the players who are BLOCKING Fields, et al in an OFFSEASON trade; it refreshes our team with youth and new blood and helps us upgrade in other areas. If Brian Anderson can prove he can hit ML pitching by the end of this year, it may happen (because we can't have 2 starters who are ?able re hitting major league pitching).

Ol' No. 2
07-15-2006, 11:00 AM
To get a really good package, package one of the players who are BLOCKING Fields, et al in an OFFSEASON trade; it refreshes our team with youth and new blood and helps us upgrade in other areas. If Brian Anderson can prove he can hit ML pitching by the end of this year, it may happen (because we can't have 2 starters who are ?able re hitting major league pitching).Fields is a 3B who MIGHT be moved to LF. No way he can play CF, so Anderson isn't blocking anyone. Crede is still relatively cheap, Fields' defense is nowhere near as good and he may not be as good of a hitter. I just don't see an opening for Fields on this team. He's got much more value in trade as a 3B.

soxtalker
07-15-2006, 11:15 AM
Fields is a 3B who MIGHT be moved to LF. No way he can play CF, so Anderson isn't blocking anyone. Crede is still relatively cheap, Fields' defense is nowhere near as good and he may not be as good of a hitter. I just don't see an opening for Fields on this team. He's got much more value in trade as a 3B.

The one problem that I see with Crede are the back issue that surfaces from time to time. Not saying that we should trade Crede, but this is a factor that KW has to consider.

Tragg
07-15-2006, 11:33 AM
Fields is a 3B who MIGHT be moved to LF. No way he can play CF, so Anderson isn't blocking anyone. Crede is still relatively cheap, Fields' defense is nowhere near as good and he may not be as good of a hitter. I just don't see an opening for Fields on this team. He's got much more value in trade as a 3B. What's the most we've gotten for a prospect in the last 10 years? For our TOP prospect of the last 5 years (and one of the top prospects in MLB), we got an inconsistent pitcher and had to add 2 ML pitchers to get that. If we can't get a lot more for him than we did for Young, I don't consider him having much value in a trade. But the incumbent starter would have high, high value in a trade. "Crede is still relatively cheap"...that means value.
Now, I'm not suggesting we trade him, I always liked him a lot even when he hit .220, but it's just an alternative(and a risky one, because of Crede's exceptional D, which is so important to this team). Of course, I'm talking about offseason, not some knee-jerk July trade.
And, hell, rumors (I know, rumors) had it that we considered trading him for the likes of Blaylock. We can do a lot better than that putting him in a package....Blaylock or similar doesn't improve this team a lick.

Sox-o-matic
07-15-2006, 02:02 PM
What's the most we've gotten for a prospect in the last 10 years?

Since 2003, Bartolo Colon, Roberto Alomar and Carl Everett (first times), Jim Thome (you honestly can't believe Philly would have taken just Rowand), Javy Vazquez, Freddy Garcia...

Bartolo, Alomar, and Everett were all improvements over the 4-5 starter fiasco, Willie Harris, and Aaron Rowand in 2003. All those moves were warranted, and IMO if that entire team wasn't in need of a major overhaul they would have made the playoffs.

Freddy got us to the postseason and helped us win a World Series.

Thome has torn it up and Vazquez, at the very least, has given Brandon a breather if he is indeed moved back into the rotation.

Even with Everett's bad play in the outfield, Alomar's inability to hit, and Javy's inconsistency, I'd say we got a pretty good return for our prospects considering NONE of them, except Olivo and Rauch if you still want to call them prospects, have done anything special at the ML level. Reed has been the best of the bunch and he hasn't hit at all.

whitesoxfan1986
07-15-2006, 02:14 PM
If we trade Freddy/Vazquez to the Mets KW should see how desprate they are for starting pitching. Freddy or Vazquez for Heilman/Milledge/Pelfrey. Anything less then no deal. Minaya has been known for trades like this, so KW should try to get away with highway robbery.:D:

Jjav829
07-15-2006, 03:56 PM
Okay, let's take a look at some FACTS:
Sanchez - WHIP - 1.24; ERA 2.54 against NL competition
Heilman - WHIP - 1.31; ERA 4.35 against NL competition
Now:
Thornton - WHIP 1.23; 3.58 against AL competition
MCarthy - WHIP 1.23; ERA 4.25 against AL competition
Cotts: - WHIP 1.09; ERA 2.95 against AL competition
Riske - WHIP c. 1.16; ERA 2.75 against AL competition

ALL of those 4 are clearly better than Heilman and all are arguably better than Sanchez, who is pitching against weaker competition and has a higher WHIP than all 4 of our pitchers. Heilman is no help whatsoever (note his career ERA is 4.59 and WHIP is 1.39 - if one of our pitchers pitched like he does, we'd be dying to get rid of him...when I typed Gload I was exaggerating a bit, but, now that I look at it closer, I don't think I was).
I realize that middle relievers are, by definition, not that great; the exception is a a young pitcher and/or set up guy who will be a closer soon. Sanchez ain't that. He's on his 3rd team in 3 years.

Now that I look at it, 4 bullpen pitchers of that quality is pretty darn good.

Cotts and Thornton are both lefties. We aren't looking to add a lefty to the bullpen. We are set there. We need right-handed relievers who can get right-handed batters out. That's what Sanchez does and he does it extremely well. I love the idea that because he is pitching well in the NL he will have no success in the AL or will somehow manage to become Cliff Politte. The guy has electric stuff. That translates well no matter what league he is in. And unlike NL starters, Sanchez doesn't benefit from facing pitchers. He's always going to face actual hitters in late inning situations.

Heilman's career ERA and WHIP are deceiving. He was rocked early in his career when he was starting. The Mets sent him to the bullpen and he has thrived there since. I'm not saying he's Mariano Rivera, but to say Heilman is worth nothing (or Gload, same difference) just shows a lack of understanding of value.

BTW, Sanchez has only pitched for two teams in the past 3 years.

ShoelessJoeS
07-15-2006, 07:04 PM
Tom Gordon seems like he's the best option right now as the stats have shown that Sanchez, and especially Heilman, are NOT that solid (or much of an upgrade). Flash, on the other hand, would solidify a pretty good 'pen of Jenks, Thornton, Cotts, Riske and McCarthy. But it's going to take more than just Gordon to snag Freddy/Javy away from the Sox.

In any case, improved starting pitching would help the 'pen whoever might be residing. In Kenny We Trust.

Domeshot17
07-15-2006, 10:45 PM
I am with JJav in terms of heilmann and sanchez. While Flash is good, Flash is also costly, and old. Heimann and Sanchez are 2 kids with amazing arms. Heilmann reminds me VERY MUCH of the right handed Cotts. Not enough in his arsanel to be a good starter, moved to the pen, and has been awesome. Sanchez is just electric. He will be a very good closer one day in his career.

Also, comparing AL/NL ERA is not nearly as much of an arguement for RP as it is SP. The RP usually faces only hitters, pitchers get pinch hit for late in the game. They dont have the luxury of the 90% out 3 times in the order. While some pitchers struggle in going from AL to NL, I do not remember many RP who have had that problem.

I know i had the biggest pipedream ever with cabrera and willis for our entire farm, but I doubt we get both lastings and pelfry plus one of those RP. I could see sanchez and pelfry or sanchez and lastings, or maybe both RP and one of the specs, but I doubt we get both Pelfry AND Lastings. If we do, it will just further Kenny Williams spot as the biggest theif in GM history.

EDIT: Quick note on Heilmann, just looked up his splits, he has been awesome, except for getting shelled in 2 games in june, drop those 2 games, and his era is in the 3s, one game gave up 3 ER in 1/3 an inning, the other 4 in an inning, has been very good since then

Taliesinrk
07-16-2006, 09:45 PM
not sure if I'm ready to acquire a Logansport Berry on the White Sox..