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nasox
07-13-2006, 09:11 PM
We all know Anderson's defense has been spectacular, but is it Gold Glove worthy? I'm not asking if he will get a gold glove, but is his defense gold glove caliber?

This thread is not for his offense. Go to the other flame war thread between Ol #2 and ondafarm and the others to comment on his offense.

EDIT: Do'h. I meant to start this in the Clubhouse but I had a brain fart. Mod, please move.

Chips
07-13-2006, 09:11 PM
We all know Anderson's defense has been spectacular, but is it Gold Glove worthy? I'm not asking if he will get a gold glove, but is his defense gold glove caliber?

This thread is not for his offense. Go to the other flame war thread between Ol #2 and ondafarm and the others to comment on his offense.
Parking Lot?:?:

And to answer the question: Hell Yeah,

Jjav829
07-13-2006, 09:15 PM
We all know Anderson's defense has been spectacular, but is it Gold Glove worthy? I'm not asking if he will get a gold glove, but is his defense gold glove caliber?

This thread is not for his offense. Go to the other flame war thread between Ol #2 and ondafarm and the others to comment on his offense.

EDIT: Do'h. I meant to start this in the Clubhouse but I had a brain fart. Mod, please move.

Probably, but he won't win a Gold Glove this year. Ichiro is virtually a lock every year to win it. Vernon Wells is almost the same. That leaves one spot open and Torii Hunter has the name recognition needed.

We all know that the Gold Glove is won largely because of offense. Players need to distinguish themselves offensively before their defense is noticed. Fair or not, that's just the way it is.

rdwj
07-13-2006, 09:39 PM
In a word - YES!

maggsmaggs
07-13-2006, 09:42 PM
Yes, but he won't. A. you have to have a reputation. B. you have to have an offensive game now. C. Its not given to the best defenders anymore.

batmanZoSo
07-13-2006, 09:43 PM
Is he gg caliber? Yes. In the right year he might win it. Might take him a few years to get some "respect" from the writers and maybe an injury to one of the aforementioned locks. The actual trophy doesn't mean anything. We can see that with the left side of our infield--the best in the league and no hardware to speak of.

StatHead21
07-13-2006, 09:46 PM
You cannot tell how good a defensive player is compared to others unless you watch every game and focus and the CFer every play.

Yes Anderson is a pretty good CFer, but how does he stack up against the rest of the league? You don't know.

The Gold Glove award (which is an absolute joke) will go to Hunter, Ichiro and Vernon Wells as usual.

But is Anderson a top 3 defense outfielder? I don't know and neither do you.

TDog
07-13-2006, 10:15 PM
... That leaves one spot open and Torii Hunter has the name recognition needed.

We all know that the Gold Glove is won largely because of offense. Players need to distinguish themselves offensively before their defense is noticed. Fair or not, that's just the way it is.

Hunter's name recognition is good enough that he won last year despite his injury.

I don't think the Gold Gloves are awarded for offense. I understand how it may appear that way. In the 1960s, Bobby Knoop won he award at second base, even though he couldn't hit. Luis Aparicio wasn't hitting when he won most of his awards. In the 1980s, Ozzie Guillen wasn't close to the league's best hitting shortstop the year he won his Gold Glove. There was a year that Mike Squires won the Gold Glove at first base, although much of the time he was a late-inning defensive replacement.

But if you look at the 1960s, you see that Aparicio didn't win it ever year. Sometimes Jim Fregosi won it. The voters used to look at who had the best season defensively. They weren't always correct. Ken Berry's only Gold Glove came in 1970. More often now, the award goes to the player who has been recognized for achieving the standard. As long as he's around a that position, he'll continue to win it. To reach that standard, you have to be noticed, and to be noticed, it helps to hit. A lot of the voters probably don't know enough about defense anymore to tell the great defenders from the good defenders, and even if they did, they don't watch every game.

Brian Anderson may be the best defensive centerfielder in the league. Or maybe not. Most of the people who vote on the Gold Glove awards probably don't watch many Sox games, just as a lot of Sox games don't see as much of the other outfielders in the league.

The short answer would be, no.

ondafarm
07-13-2006, 10:17 PM
Brian Anderson is solidly ahead of all of the major other CF in the AL. His 3.29 RF is significantly better than Gathright (KC) at 3.05, Patterson (BAL) 3.04, Sizemore (Cle) at 3.00 or Hunter (Min) at 2.79.


I agree with several of the other posters that BA doesn't have a) the flash that Hunter or others has or b) the offense yet.

Does BA deserve the GG? Yes.

Will he get it? Probably not.

2ndCitySox
07-13-2006, 10:22 PM
I think Crede is next in line before BA

batmanZoSo
07-13-2006, 10:25 PM
Brian Anderson is solidly ahead of all of the major other CF in the AL. His 3.29 RF is significantly better than Gathright (KC) at 3.05, Patterson (BAL) 3.04, Sizemore (Cle) at 3.00 or Hunter (Min) at 2.79.


I agree with several of the other posters that BA doesn't have a) the flash that Hunter or others has or b) the offense yet.

Does BA deserve the GG? Yes.

Will he get it? Probably not.

I can't think of one web gem type catch he's made this year. I could be forgetting, but I really can't think of any. And I'm talking about the jaw-dropping kind that gets national attention--which are not necessarily the best catches made, but the kind you need to win gold gloves. Meh...all I care about is that he hits .280 with some pop and becomes a great situational hitter. That's all we need from him at the bottom of the order.

JohnBasedowYoda
07-13-2006, 10:25 PM
He's damn good

Daver
07-13-2006, 10:28 PM
I can't think of one web gem type catch he's made this year. I could be forgetting, but I really can't think of any. And I'm talking about the jaw-dropping kind that gets national attention--which are not necessarily the best catches made, but the kind you need to win gold gloves. Meh...all I care about is that he hits .280 with some pop and becomes a great situational hitter. That's all we need from him at the bottom of the order.

You don't make web gems when you take the correct route to the ball in the first place. Good outfielders make every catch look easy.

Norberto7
07-13-2006, 10:29 PM
A few good plays this upcoming series in Yankee Stadium would catapult him into Gold Glove talks (see Rowand, Aaron - 2005).

Jjav829
07-13-2006, 10:35 PM
Hunter's name recognition is good enough that he won last year despite his injury.

I don't think the Gold Gloves are awarded for offense. I understand how it may appear that way. In the 1960s, Bobby Knoop won he award at second base, even though he couldn't hit. Luis Aparicio wasn't hitting when he won most of his awards. In the 1980s, Ozzie Guillen wasn't close to the league's best hitting shortstop the year he won his Gold Glove. There was a year that Mike Squires won the Gold Glove at first base, although much of the time he was a late-inning defensive replacement.

But if you look at the 1960s, you see that Aparicio didn't win it ever year. Sometimes Jim Fregosi won it. The voters used to look at who had the best season defensively. They weren't always correct. Ken Berry's only Gold Glove came in 1970. More often now, the award goes to the player who has been recognized for achieving the standard. As long as he's around a that position, he'll continue to win it. To reach that standard, you have to be noticed, and to be noticed, it helps to hit. A lot of the voters probably don't know enough about defense anymore to tell the great defenders from the good defenders, and even if they did, they don't watch every game.

Brian Anderson may be the best defensive centerfielder in the league. Or maybe not. Most of the people who vote on the Gold Glove awards probably don't watch many Sox games, just as a lot of Sox games don't see as much of the other outfielders in the league.

The short answer would be, no.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. You went on to make basically the same point I was trying to get at, only with a lot more words.

My point isn't that you need to hit to win the Gold Glove. My point is that in order to win the GG, you have to be recognized. The quickest way to get recognized? Hit. When people see a player putting up spectacular numbers, they take notice of everything else he does, including his defense. Players who don't put up those strong numbers don't get the same recognition.

Just as a case in point, how many people really talk about Mark Kotsay's defense? We hear a lot about guys like Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, Torii Hunter, etc. However, Mark Kotsay is about as good in center as any of those guys. But no one talks about Kotsay because his offensive numbers are not particularly impressive. He doesn't have a ton of power or steal a lot of bases. His average is never really high enough for people to take notice. He's just a solid all-around player. Solid all-around players don't get noticed very much.

BainesHOF
07-13-2006, 10:44 PM
Anderson needs to remember how many outs there are and also to back up every play not to mention learn how to hit the cutoff man and throw to the proper base. Oh yeah, he also has to be a regular starter, too.

Let's have some perspective here.

ondafarm
07-13-2006, 10:47 PM
I think you misunderstood what I meant. You went on to make basically the same point I was trying to get at, only with a lot more words.

My point isn't that you need to hit to win the Gold Glove. My point is that in order to win the GG, you have to be recognized. The quickest way to get recognized? Hit. When people see a player putting up spectacular numbers, they take notice of everything else he does, including his defense. Players who don't put up those strong numbers don't get the same recognition.

Just as a case in point, how many people really talk about Mark Kotsay's defense? We hear a lot about guys like Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, Torii Hunter, etc. However, Mark Kotsay is about as good in center as any of those guys. But no one talks about Kotsay because his offensive numbers are not particularly impressive. He doesn't have a ton of power or steal a lot of bases. His average is never really high enough for people to take notice. He's just a solid all-around player. Solid all-around players don't get noticed very much.

Living in the Bay Area I get to watch a lot of A's games and Kotsay is nowhere near the match of Anderson on defense.

102605
07-13-2006, 10:48 PM
Anderson needs to be playing more regular for this to even be discussed if it is in regards to this year.

In the future maybe if he hits >.275

Jjav829
07-13-2006, 10:51 PM
Living in the Bay Area I get to watch a lot of A's games and Kotsay is nowhere near the match of Anderson on defense.
I disagree, but to each his own.

JorgeFabregas
07-13-2006, 11:03 PM
I can't think of one web gem type catch he's made this year. I could be forgetting, but I really can't think of any.
He's made a couple great diving catches. He made another one where he ranged for into the gap, caught the ball, bounced off the wall, and threw out a runner at third. His defense is out of control. He's #1 in Range Factor for MLB centerfielders, #1 in fielding percentage, and #3 in Zone Rating.

oeo
07-13-2006, 11:24 PM
Anderson needs to remember how many outs there are and also to back up every play not to mention learn how to hit the cutoff man and throw to the proper base. Oh yeah, he also has to be a regular starter, too.

Let's have some perspective here.

Small things...things you can learn. What Anderson does everyday, you can't teach that. With experience, he won't make those mistakes, but you could give anyone experience out there and never learn what Anderson does.

SpartanSoxFan
07-14-2006, 12:59 AM
Unfortunately, BA's .190 or whatever it is batting average will ultimately keep him from winning the award this year. Does he play Gold-glove caliber defense? Absolutely. The problem is his batting average keeps him from being an everyday guy at center.

kwolf68
07-14-2006, 08:47 AM
With Vernon Wells playing in the AL, Anderson has no chance.

fquaye149
07-14-2006, 09:33 AM
I disagree, but to each his own.

Mark Kotsay is a lot like Rowand, but with more physical talent in CF.

Whatever that means to you, good or bad, that's the way it's seemed to me in the 50 or so games I've seen Kotsay play (and his fence crashing web gems that I see from time to time)

fquaye149
07-14-2006, 09:38 AM
You don't make web gems when you take the correct route to the ball in the first place. Good outfielders make every catch look easy.

But in a certain (sad) respect, this is germane to the argument. It seems like gg voters really don't know as much about the game of baseball as they might once have. How else can you explain Mike Cameron only winning 2 gg in his career?

The truth is, a lot of managers and players don't really watch the games ALL that closesly from a "who deserves the gg" standpoint...so they're going to remember the webgem type plays. Gary Matthews, JR. is going to come immediately to mind to any player who saw that play when gg discussions come up b/c of that catch. His actual abilities in cf will be secondary. Same with Rowand's freakshow catch in PHI.

BA will be long overlooked until someone renowned notices that he covers more ground in CF than just about anyone in baseball and makes that public....

itsnotrequired
07-14-2006, 09:54 AM
An absolute Gold Glove-caliber player in the strictest definition of the word. Good speed, good arm, amazing reads of the ball of the bat, etc. Essentially every team in the league would want a CF with Anderson's defensive talents.

But in the real world, offense plays a part in it so there is no way he gets it this year unless he totally blows the cover off the ball in the second half.

1917
07-14-2006, 09:56 AM
Tori Hunter still has a pulse, so no

ondafarm
07-14-2006, 10:03 AM
The truth is, a lot of managers and players don't really watch the games ALL that closesly from a "who deserves the gg" standpoint...so they're going to remember the webgem type plays. Gary Matthews, JR. is going to come immediately to mind to any player who saw that play when gg discussions come up b/c of that catch. His actual abilities in cf will be secondary. Same with Rowand's freakshow catch in PHI.

...

This is really unfortunate. A webgem is actually a bad play and crashing into a wall typically means the guy was caught out of position. Brian Anderson is almost never out of position.

When did he forget how many outs? I haven't seen that this season.

fquaye149
07-14-2006, 10:06 AM
This is really unfortunate. A webgem is actually a bad play and crashing into a wall typically means the guy was caught out of position. Brian Anderson is almost never out of position.

When did he forget how many outs? I haven't seen that this season.

IF webgems consistently reflect outstanding defense (except for the ones where the IF drops the ball and makes an unbelievable recovery to throw the runner out)

OF webgems generally reflect great athleticism covering the OF's ass against his horrible fundamentals.

Chicken Dinner
07-14-2006, 10:30 AM
No way.........let the kid develope and ask again in a few years.

itsnotrequired
07-14-2006, 10:55 AM
No way.........let the kid develope and ask again in a few years.

But he already has Gold Glove defense. Stupid offense plays into the GG which is lame. There is already an award for offense: Silver Slugger. If they want to award a player with great defense AND offense, they should make a new award, the Platinum Player or something like that.

ode to veeck
07-14-2006, 11:08 AM
Gold Glove worthy and winning the award are disjoint orthogonal unrelated, uncorrelated events. See HOF for similar issues

MsSoxVixen22
07-14-2006, 11:18 AM
I think Crede is next in line before BA

That's for damn sure! Crede deserves one!