PDA

View Full Version : Everyone is misunderstanding the SS problem!


beausox
02-14-2002, 07:06 PM
Fellow Posters, the problem at SS is that we have one too many qualified SS. I have read posts saying htat neither Jose or Royce could be on a World Series winning team but I beg to differ. In my opinion they both could.

Jose is a SS that will hit 25-30 HR's, 85-95 RBI's, 20-30 SB's, and is the heart and soul of a team on and off the field. The first thing people say is that he plays horrible defense. That is a statement is incorrect. Jose has got one of the strongest arms for a SS in all of baseball. Jose's Range Factor is waht leads to his defenseive woes. In short, Jose gets to more ground balls thatn the average SS, and so he has more opportuniteis to misplay them. I've seen him get to balls no one else could, however, he goes deep in the whole and throws the ball away. If you took all the normal defensive statistics and then took into account stats like Range Factor, you would see Jose is a very good defensive SS. Based on RF alone, he is much much better than Derek Jeter.

Royce on the other hand is the exact opposite. He is a glove man. He dosen't cover as much ground as Jose, though he dosen't do to bad himself, but he is sure handed and dosen't make many mistakes on the balls he gets to. Also, though not a power hitter, he is capable of hitting .280 with 10 HR and setaling 20 bases.

Both of these guys have been all-stars in their careers. however, we have two WS caliber SS and one is playing 3B. We only need one, and in my opinion Jose is better than Royce. Royce needs to be traded, not because he is a bad player, only because we already have a better SS.

Daver
02-14-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by beausox


Both of these guys have been all-stars in their careers. however, we have two WS caliber SS and one is playing 3B. We only need one, and in my opinion Jose is better than Royce. Royce needs to be traded, not because he is a bad player, only because we already have a better SS.

Unfortunately,no one wants him.I would trade for him to wash my truck,but 4.5 mil is not in my budget this year for truck washing.:redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
02-14-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by daver
Unfortunately,no one wants him.I would trade for him to wash my truck,but 4.5 mil is not in my budget this year for truck washing.:redneck

I'll take him on Saturdays. My lawn needs mowing. Will that help?

Daver
02-14-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I'll take him on Saturdays. My lawn needs mowing. Will that help?

Depends you want to split the cost?:redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
02-14-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by daver
Depends you want to split the cost?:redneck

This job is too big for just the two of us. We need something like a "White Sox Interactive Benefit for Paying Clayton" event. Everybody could chip in and we would buy his contract from the Sox. Then we could have him working odd jobs or chores around the house.

Wouldn't it be great to have Clayton doing your homework, too?

:gulp:

Daver
02-14-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


This job is too big for just the two of us. We need something like a "White Sox Interactive Benefit for Paying Clayton" event. Everybody could chip in and we would buy his contract from the Sox. Then we could have him working odd jobs or chores around the house.

Wouldn't it be great to have Clayton doing your homework, too?

:gulp:

Great idea,I need someone to do the pooper scooper detail in my dog run(four dogs,not a pretty sight)and Royce is the perfect "glove man" for the job.

Where do I sign up?:redneck

czalgosz
02-14-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


This job is too big for just the two of us. We need something like a "White Sox Interactive Benefit for Paying Clayton" event. Everybody could chip in and we would buy his contract from the Sox. Then we could have him working odd jobs or chores around the house.

Wouldn't it be great to have Clayton doing your homework, too?

:gulp:

Well, if the 120 or so people here listed as "regulars" all chipped in, we'd only need about $38,000 apiece.

Good thing it's not Arod we're trying to pay - we'd each need about $208,000.

Nellie_Fox
02-14-2002, 10:01 PM
I really don't want to come off as Manos bashing; I really like the guy. But I get so tired of hearing the "he makes his errors on balls other guys don't even get to" argument. I admit I don't get to see as many Sox games as most of you guys (WGN games and national games) but the majority of boots I saw him make have been on balls hit basically right at him.

Daver
02-14-2002, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I really don't want to come off as Manos bashing; I really like the guy. But I get so tired of hearing the "he makes his errors on balls other guys don't even get to" argument. I admit I don't get to see as many Sox games as most of you guys (WGN games and national games) but the majority of boots I saw him make have been on balls hit basically right at him.

Nellie,the only balls he seems to have a problem with are the ones hit right at him,he feilds everything else,including balls Buddy Lee would not even move to make.That is the entire point over the Manos versus Useless debate.

FarWestChicago
02-14-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I really don't want to come off as Manos bashing; I really like the guy. But I get so tired of hearing the "he makes his errors on balls other guys don't even get to" argument. I admit I don't get to see as many Sox games as most of you guys (WGN games and national games) but the majority of boots I saw him make have been on balls hit basically right at him. You are correct. Manos boots routine plays. He does quite well on the very difficult ones.

Pete_SSAC
02-14-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
You are correct. Manos boots routine plays. He does quite well on the very difficult ones.

The only problem with that is, there's a lot more routine plays than highlight reel ones.

- Pete

Tragg
02-14-2002, 11:27 PM
Clayton is a terrible hitter. 280 in his BEST year, with practically no walks - horrible. He should be off of this team.

cornball
02-16-2002, 07:40 AM
I dont want to be the lone voice for Clayton, but personally i just think one of them has to go. Wouldnt make me mad either way. Jose would be a better choice at this point, but dont classifiy him defensively with Jeter.

They both have pluses and minuses, as we all do.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-16-2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by cornball
I dont want to be the lone voice for Clayton, but personally i just think one of them has to go. Wouldnt make me mad either way. Jose would be a better choice at this point, but dont classifiy him defensively with Jeter.

They both have pluses and minuses, as we all do.

You know, I used to dread these Clayton/Valentin debates. All it did was make enemies of everybody. But now I kind of enjoy them. Which ballplayer you prefer really comes down to how you view the game.

You would think everyone views the game in roughly the same manner you do, but the truth is very different. I'm not sure if you were around for the long thread we had last month about process-oriented thinking vs. results-oriented thinking. I think Clayton/Valentin is a good metaphor for the debate between these two ways of thinking.

Everyone needs to consider both process and results in their thinking, but how you piece these two elements together oftentimes leads you to different conclusions and decisions.

If you equate errors with defense, Clayton is your man--at least for defensive purposes. If you look at multiple elements to measure defensive performance, Valentin looks a lot better and his superior bat makes him the better choice. Some have argued that Clayton is good insurance against an injury to others, but his availibility to play the field is limited to shortstop--and he is expensive insurance at $4.5 million per annum.

So who is better? Only Jerry Manuel gets a vote.

:jerry
"And it's not the one at WSI, either."

PaleHoseGeorge
02-16-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm not sure if you were around for the long thread we had last month about process-oriented thinking vs. results-oriented thinking. I think Clayton/Valentin is a good metaphor for the debate between these two ways of thinking.

Hey, Cornball! Here's the link to that thread regarding Clayton "process-oriented" thinking vs. Valentin "results-oriented" thinking. It's one of the longest threads we've ever had on the message board. Clayton/Valentin is easily the longest-running debate we've had on the message board, too. It started last July and hasn't stopped since.

Balanced Approach vs. Just Win (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6989&highlight=resultsoriented)

:jerry
"What, and nothing has been decided yet? I was hoping for some advice."

voodoochile
02-16-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
:jerry
"What, and nothing has been decided yet? I was hoping for some advice."

Okay, in a few hours check the post labeled "Help Jerry Decide."

It will be a poll...

My first, so I may not get it all right the first time...

bjmarte
02-16-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by cornball
They both have pluses and minuses, as we all do.

What?! Someone being reasonable regarding Manos vs Buddy? Is that even allowed on this board?

Daver
02-16-2002, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte


What?! Someone being reasonable regarding Manos vs Buddy? Is that even allowed on this board?

No it isn't,someone is breaking the rules.

voodoochile
02-16-2002, 04:17 PM
Well, honestly, I'm torn.

If the Sox acquire another top 3 starter, then I think this could be a year to make a run at the pennant - that means play the veterans. I don't like Royce, but if we are playing veterans in the hopes of making a run, Royce must get the SS job to start the season, IMO. He earned it with his second half last year. Of course I hope it is a short leash and if he dogs it up in April, the Sox don't hesitate to bring up Crede or play Graff/Leifer at 3B and move Jose back to SS.

If the pitching staff remains as is, then I think the Sox are still a year away from being serious contenders that means they should play Crede from the get go, put Jose back at SS where he belongs and get as much experience as they can for guys like Hummel and Borchard in the second half. That means you trade Royce for whatever you can get. This is the way I voted in the poll, because we at present have not made a blockbuster trade for a veteran starter (please no el dooky).

I don't like Royce, but if this is going to be our year, he deserves the chance to play his way off the team (again)...