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LuzinskiFan
07-09-2006, 05:34 PM
Accordingly to Buster Onley just now on ESPN radio the Sox and Giants are rumored to be working on a deal Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson for Jason Schmidt.

batmanZoSo
07-09-2006, 05:36 PM
Jeez, I'd hope we get Andruw Jones then. Unless you're all okay with Makowiack's prowess in center?

MRM
07-09-2006, 05:37 PM
Would have to involve more than that, or be contingent on the Sox having another deal in place for a center fielder. Could explain why McCarthy hasn't been brought into todays game, tho.

Palehose13
07-09-2006, 05:37 PM
Why would the Sox get rid of the closest thing to a CFer they have and a up and coming pitcher who is helping in the pen for another starting pitcher? Only way this could be close to true is if there is another deal in progress.

DSpivack
07-09-2006, 05:39 PM
Jeez, I'd hope we get Andruw Jones then. Unless you're all okay with Makowiack's prowess in center?

I think you missed the point of the rumor. Jason Schmidt is going to play CF!

cbotnyse
07-09-2006, 05:40 PM
seems like an odd deal to make....I would love to have Jason Schmidt, but that would leave a big hole in the defense in CF.

batmanZoSo
07-09-2006, 05:41 PM
I think you missed the point of the rumor. Jason Schmidt is going to play CF!

Oh, how silly of me, problem solved!

There was a big Schmidt watch last year that never panned out. Methinks this one will yield similar results.

MRM
07-09-2006, 05:44 PM
Why would the Sox get rid of the closest thing to a CFer they have and a up and coming pitcher who is helping in the pen for another starting pitcher? Only way this could be close to true is if there is another deal in progress.

Yep. And it would still leave the team with 6 starters. Only way this deal works is if they also traded a starting pitcher for a CF. Think Atlanta likes Freddie Garcia? :D:

QCIASOXFAN
07-09-2006, 05:49 PM
seems like an odd deal to make....I would love to have Jason Schmidt, but that would leave a big hole in the defense in CF. I wouldn't put it past Kenny. As different of a trade as it is you never know.

California Sox
07-09-2006, 05:50 PM
Sounds fishy to me. That would be four CFers we've traded in less than two years plus our best young pitcher. It would leave us without a CFer and short in the bullpen. Have to say, it would be tantamount to admitting Vazquez acquisition was a mistake.

oeo
07-09-2006, 06:01 PM
Give up our young starting pitcher that will likely be in our rotation for the next 10 years and a centerfielder that will be one of the best, for Jason Schmidt? No thanks.

Kenny thinks about now, but he also thinks about the future. McCarthy and Anderson = Sox future.

MRM
07-09-2006, 06:11 PM
Give up our young starting pitcher that will likely be in our rotation for the next 10 years

I'm curious...who was the last Sox pitcher in the rotation for 10 years? :D:

eastchicagosoxfan
07-09-2006, 06:12 PM
If the Sox have Schmidt after this rumored deal, what starter goes, and where, aand for whom? Would KW trade Buerhle for Andruw Jones? The Braves could then spin off Smoltz and Buerhle for a boatload of prospects? :angry: :angry: I don't like the idea, but anything is possible. Buerhle is a free agent after next year, and aside from Contreras, he's got the greatest trade value. :angry: :angry:

zmz723
07-09-2006, 06:25 PM
schmidt does have an 2.69 era, but it is in the craptastic NL

Epark84
07-09-2006, 06:26 PM
If the Sox have Schmidt after this rumored deal, what starter goes, and where, aand for whom? Would KW trade Buerhle for Andruw Jones? The Braves could then spin off Smoltz and Buerhle for a boatload of prospects? :angry: :angry: I don't like the idea, but anything is possible. Buerhle is a free agent after next year, and aside from Contreras, he's got the greatest trade value. :angry: :angry:

you would need more than buerhle for jones especially the way he has pitched recently

gf2020
07-09-2006, 06:26 PM
Accordingly to Buster Onley just now on ESPN radio the Sox and Giants are rumored to be working on a deal Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson for Jason Schmidt.
That's doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless we are moving Garcia or Javier as well. What are the chances that two deals like that occur before the deadline? Slim to none.

batmanZoSo
07-09-2006, 06:34 PM
schmidt does have an 2.69 era, but it is in the craptastic NL

That traslates to a robust 3.19 in the AL given the standard +.5.

eastchicagosoxfan
07-09-2006, 06:37 PM
you would need more than buerhle for jones especially the way he has pitched recently
Maybe throw in a top prospect too? I really can't see it happening, but if Schmidt comes on board, a starter is moving on. Unless the Sox move Schmidt somewhere else.

cbrownson13
07-09-2006, 06:39 PM
I really don't want Buehrle going anywhere. I would like to keep the left-handed arm in our rotation. Plus I just got an authentic Buehrle jersey only a couple months ago.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-09-2006, 06:41 PM
I can't see this deal going down. It would only put more holes into the bullpen. Unless the Sox trade one of the starters.

y2j2785
07-09-2006, 06:50 PM
There has to be more to this. If they get Schmidt, KW must have another deal in place to fill the holes.

oeo
07-09-2006, 06:53 PM
I'm curious...who was the last Sox pitcher in the rotation for 10 years? :D:

Buehrle will be. Reinsdorf is spending money now-a-days.

santo=dorf
07-09-2006, 07:09 PM
Ok, who's bumping threads from a year ago?

This make no sense whatsoever for the Sox.

Give up 5 years of FOBB and 6 years of Brian Anderson (both favorites of KW)for 3 months of Schmidt.

chaerulez
07-09-2006, 07:28 PM
Accordingly to Buster Onley just now on ESPN radio the Sox and Giants are rumored to be working on a deal Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson for Jason Schmidt.

That'd be a terrible deal for the White Sox. I think McCarthy for Schmidt alone would be bad for the Sox. Schmidt while he can be dominating at times, has a history of injury problems, and I think he's a bit overrated too.

chisoxmike
07-09-2006, 07:33 PM
No, no , no, and no.

jenn2080
07-09-2006, 07:35 PM
I hope this is a bad RUMOR!

lbtigerfan
07-09-2006, 07:48 PM
I hope this is a bad RUMOR!

You and me both, sista!

MadetoOrta
07-09-2006, 07:51 PM
No way. No how. KW is not this dumb. ESPN and other east coast morons wish KW were this dumb.

Tragg
07-09-2006, 07:51 PM
Accordingly to Buster Onley just now on ESPN radio the Sox and Giants are rumored to be working on a deal Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson for Jason Schmidt. That would be one of the worst trades in Sox history. It would make the Ritchie trade look like a steal for the Sox.
Our best young arm, our best young outfielder, for a pitcher past his prime with decent stats this year against NL competition.
An absolute outrage.
The team needs to contend for 5-10 more years, not just the 2-3 Ozzie will be around. (and I think contending for 5-10 more years is more valuable than winning another WS and then sucking for the next 10 years). McCarthy and Anderson are key elements of that.

Small trades, Kenny...you're near infallible with those.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2006, 08:01 PM
I think you'd have to go back to the 60's...specifically Gary Peters and Joe Horlen.

Lip

bigfoot
07-09-2006, 08:02 PM
After today's/tonight's game, obviously Jason Schmidt will start Javier to the BP and Cliff Politte will play CF!:gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

areilly
07-09-2006, 08:50 PM
Maybe Schmidt then goes to Philly and we get their CF in return...what's that guy's name again?

Tragg
07-09-2006, 09:04 PM
He served us well, but 8 homers, .316 OBP is nothing to lament.

I don't think the Sox have any real weaknesses. A small trade would be fine, but otherwise, we could use some general upgrades in a few spots, which are best done in the winter via Free Agency or strength/strength trades (versus desparation adhesive July trades).

Sargeant79
07-09-2006, 09:10 PM
No way this happens.

Brian26
07-09-2006, 09:10 PM
Accordingly to Buster Onley just now on ESPN radio the Sox and Giants are rumored to be working on a deal Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson for Jason Schmidt.

Did anyone else hear this? It makes no sense on any level whatsoever.

DaleJRFan
07-09-2006, 09:19 PM
Did anyone else hear this? It makes no sense on any level whatsoever.

This "trade rumor" makes NO sense, whatsoever. The Giants are in a race for the NL west, why trade their best starting pitcher??? :?: :?: :?:

Tragg
07-09-2006, 09:25 PM
The Giants have a good reason to deal him because if someone would give them top Grade A young talent as per this trade rumor, it would be the steal of the century. These 2 are more than touted AAA players; McCarthy has proven he can pitch in the MLs and Anderson has proven that he's at the top of the league in year 1 defensively. That would be an incredible jump start for a team that needs retooling anyway. (and as an aside, they didn't give us anyone with near the talent of one of those 2 in 1997, for far more than Jason Schmidt).

Isn't Schmidt a FA after this year?

The rumor is senseless.

cbotnyse
07-09-2006, 09:26 PM
This "trade rumor" makes NO sense, whatsoever. The Giants are in a race for the NL west, why trade their best starting pitcher??? :?: :?: :?:thats what I was thinking. The Giants have no reason to deal him, that I know of anyway. makes no sense.

Chips
07-09-2006, 10:02 PM
Oh, how silly of me, problem solved!

There was a big Schmidt watch last year that never panned out. Methinks this one will yield similar results.

I hope you're right.

SOXintheBURGH
07-09-2006, 10:06 PM
This is the stupidest thing I've heard in awhile. A long while.

Epark84
07-09-2006, 10:15 PM
He served us well, but 8 homers, .316 OBP is nothing to lament.

I don't think the Sox have any real weaknesses. A small trade would be fine, but otherwise, we could use some general upgrades in a few spots, which are best done in the winter via Free Agency or strength/strength trades (versus desparation adhesive July trades).


No weaknesses? All teams have weaknesses...Last time i checked the starting CF is hitting under .200. Not acceptable. And the rotation has flat out been bad of late. Buerhle better find it over the break...Garcia and vazquez have been bad...Garland and contreras are the two best right now. They are good, but they have to be better. The Tigers are not going away. They arent going to roll over and play dead at some point. They are a damn good team

Flight #24
07-09-2006, 10:41 PM
No weaknesses? All teams have weaknesses...Last time i checked the starting CF is hitting under .200. Not acceptable. And the rotation has flat out been bad of late. Buerhle better find it over the break...Garcia and vazquez have been bad...Garland and contreras are the two best right now. They are good, but they have to be better. The Tigers are not going away. They arent going to roll over and play dead at some point. They are a damn good team

OK, and this deal doesn't do anything to help the CF situation. And if you want to deal a starter for Andruw Jones, why wouldn't you just deal one and plug in McCarthy as a cheap young replacement (go get a bullpen arm) rather than trading him for an older, much more expensive one?

Also, you assume that the Sox starters aren't going to improve. Buehrle & Garcia are going through a tough patch, but their history tells you that it's not likely to last. Garland was going through one not too long ago, and guess what - he's out of it now. Contreras is a bit up & down, but not really struggling. Vazquez - that's a different story, him the jury's still out on. But that's why you have BMac.

This deal just doesn't make logical sense. Kenny's spent most of the offseason doing 2 things: Strengthening the '06 team and solidifying the rotation for 2-3 years. You're suggesting all of a sudden he'll backtrack on the 2d goal without significantly improving the first one?:?:

CLR01
07-09-2006, 10:45 PM
Isn't Schmidt a FA after this year?

The rumor is senseless.


Yes he is.

Why would the Sox make a trade that not only does nothing to help the bullpen but also creates a huge hole in CF and hurts them next year and beyond? This move would be a step backwards.


We need a "this rumor sucks" tag.

chisoxmike
07-09-2006, 10:46 PM
We need a "this rumor sucks" tag.

Well, we have this...


:threadblows:

cbotnyse
07-09-2006, 10:47 PM
Yes he is.

Why would the Sox make a trade that not only does nothing to help the bullpen but also creates a huge hole in CF and hurts them next year and beyond? This move would be a step backwards.


We need a "this rumor sucks" tag.that tag would instantly become the most used tag ever in "What the Score"

ChiSoxlukes
07-09-2006, 10:52 PM
Josh Fields moves to the outfield. Jason Schmidt becomes the fifth starter. Javier moves to the bullpen or is traded. If Javier is traded, Sox will have money to resign Jason Schmidt. If Javier isn't traded and Schmidt isn't resigned, Javier moves back to the rotation next year.

CLR01
07-09-2006, 11:02 PM
Josh Fields moves to the outfield. Jason Schmidt becomes the fifth starter. Javier moves to the bullpen or is traded. If Javier is traded, Sox will have money to resign Jason Schmidt. If Javier isn't traded and Schmidt isn't resigned, Javier moves back to the rotation next year.


That does what to help the bullpen or fill the gap Anderson would leave behind?

Flight #24
07-09-2006, 11:15 PM
Josh Fields moves to the outfield. Jason Schmidt becomes the fifth starter. Javier moves to the bullpen or is traded. If Javier is traded, Sox will have money to resign Jason Schmidt. If Javier isn't traded and Schmidt isn't resigned, Javier moves back to the rotation next year.

Just so I understand properly, the suggestion on the table is to:

- Trade BA & BMac for Schmidt
- Schmidt replaces Vazquez in the rotation, Vazquez replaces BMac in the bullpen
- Fields somehow replaces Anderson in CF (or I suppose maybe you want to shift Pods to CF and play Fields in LF. Or maybe you trade Vazquez for a CF and (hopefully) a reliever to fill his role.

All of this instead of just:
- Moving Pods to CF and calling up Fields or starting Mackowiak in LF
- Moving McCarthy to the rotation and Vazquez to the 'pen (or trading Vazquez as in the 3d point above).

I'll say it again: :?:

WSox8404
07-09-2006, 11:23 PM
If anything like this were to happen, there would definately be another deal to be made. One of our starters would be heading somewhere to get a CF. I doubt anything like this happens though.

monkeypants
07-10-2006, 12:13 AM
I figured out how this trade could be possible. It was reported by ESPN.

This is not going to happen.

SOXfnNlansing
07-10-2006, 12:17 AM
I'm curious...who was the last Sox pitcher in the rotation for 10 years? :D:

I think if that was the AFLAC trivia question, no one would know the answer because I sure don't. lol

getonbckthr
07-10-2006, 12:34 AM
If this deal were to Occur Tracey would replace Brandon in the pen. Also there was that rumor about KW being interested in Figgins. Garland for Figgins could be out there pending Jon waiving the clause which he might considering he would be going home. So possible the deal turns out to be Garland, Brandon, and Anderson for Tracey, Schmidt and Figgins.

gf2020
07-10-2006, 12:39 AM
If this deal were to Occur Tracey would replace Brandon in the pen. Also there was that rumor about KW being interested in Figgins. Garland for Figgins could be out there pending Jon waiving the clause which he might considering he would be going home. So possible the deal turns out to be Garland, Brandon, and Anderson for Tracey, Schmidt and Figgins.

The Angels had to pay Jeff Weaver to go away. What makes you think they would want another starter?

getonbckthr
07-10-2006, 12:47 AM
The Angels had to pay Jeff Weaver to go away. What makes you think they would want another starter?
Well Jeff Weaver really sucks. Not to mention Anaheim was rumored to be trying to get Crawford and they would be giving up ervin Santana in the deal. If they were to pull it off Garland would replace Santana and Crawford would replace Figgins.

Jjav829
07-10-2006, 01:02 AM
Not a chance. All things considered, Bmac is about as close to untouchable as anyone on this team. As I have said before, the Sox starting rotation currently accounts for about half of the total payroll. And it hasn't even been that good. You can bet that one of the current starters will be gone next year and KW will go cheap with Bmac. It just has to be done. You can't spent approximately $50 million on a starting rotation unless your overall payroll is going to be around $150 million, or unless that rotation is just going to be completely dominant. We have neither. One of Garcia, Garland or Vazquez will be gone next year and McCarthy will be starting. Kenny even said as much himself before the season.

getonbckthr
07-10-2006, 01:12 AM
Not a chance. All things considered, Fingernails on a blackboard is about as close to untouchable as anyone on this team. As I have said before, the Sox starting rotation currently accounts for about half of the total payroll. And it hasn't even been that good. You can bet that one of the current starters will be gone next year and KW will go cheap with Fingernails on a blackboard. It just has to be done. You can't spent approximately $50 million on a starting rotation unless your overall payroll is going to be around $150 million, or unless that rotation is just going to be completely dominant. We have neither. One of Garcia, Garland or Vazquez will be gone next year and McCarthy will be starting. Kenny even said as much himself before the season.
Question JJav do you see it as a good idea and a possibility of this season Vasquez and Uribe with a prospect or 2 for Tejada. Resulting in BMac replacing Javy (hard to do worse) and Tracey taking over long relief?

Jjav829
07-10-2006, 01:15 AM
Question JJav do you see it as a good idea and a possibility of this season Vasquez and Uribe with a prospect or 2 for Tejada. Resulting in Fingernails on a blackboard replacing Javy (hard to do worse) and Tracey taking over long relief?

Tough call. If I knew Kenny could acquire another righty reliever for the pen, I'd be all over that deal.

Probably a moot point though as I don't think the Orioles would go for that deal, regardless of the prospect(s) added in. I think they're going to want a top-of-the-rotation starter for Tejada.

voodoochile
07-10-2006, 01:52 AM
Before they trade McCarthy they would definitely trade Vazquez. Vazques and prospects for Schmidt definitely a possibility, but trading Anderson and McCarthy for a rent-a-player would be too much.

Vazques and Chris Young and another AA prospect pitcher makes sense for Schmidt, but anything that takes players off the 25 man big league roster would be silly. Anderson is finally looking competent at the plate too.

TDog
07-10-2006, 03:01 AM
I am not going to waste my time complaining about a trade until it's announced as a trade.

How often are these insiders right about deals anyway? Real reporters have to name their sources.

sullythered
07-10-2006, 05:08 AM
This deal makes no sense. Why would we move a guy with several years left on his rookie deal who is already better than 2/5ths of our rotation.

Kenny is no fool.

Thome25
07-10-2006, 08:06 AM
Sounds fishy to me. That would be four CFers we've traded in less than two years plus our best young pitcher. It would leave us without a CFer and short in the bullpen. Have to say, it would be tantamount to admitting Vazquez acquisition was a mistake.

I think if the White Sox were to acquire a pitcher like Schmidt, it wouldn't be admitting Vazquez was a mistake. It would be admitting that Garcia has obviously lost something and they would probably package him in a deal to get a CF and possibly a reliever.

Thome25
07-10-2006, 08:11 AM
Give up our young starting pitcher that will likely be in our rotation for the next 10 years and a centerfielder that will be one of the best, for Jason Schmidt? No thanks.

Kenny thinks about now, but he also thinks about the future. McCarthy and Anderson = Sox future.

Who cares about the next 10 years as long as a potential deal gets us another ring? Nothing is guaranteed and you have to strike now while the iron's hot. KW has to get as much out of this team as he can RIGHT NOW.

This team isn't going to be together forever and they've already proven that they can win it once. Why not give them the reinforcements to do it again?

I don't think I want to worry about rebuilding right now.

MadetoOrta
07-10-2006, 09:07 AM
Not a chance. All things considered, Fingernails on a blackboard is about as close to untouchable as anyone on this team. As I have said before, the Sox starting rotation currently accounts for about half of the total payroll. And it hasn't even been that good. You can bet that one of the current starters will be gone next year and KW will go cheap with Fingernails on a blackboard. It just has to be done. You can't spent approximately $50 million on a starting rotation unless your overall payroll is going to be around $150 million, or unless that rotation is just going to be completely dominant. We have neither. One of Garcia, Garland or Vazquez will be gone next year and McCarthy will be starting. Kenny even said as much himself before the season.

Completey agree. It is also the same reason why BA is going nowhere fast. KW made a decision it was BA over Reed. BA, McCarthy, Fields and Sweeney are extremely cheap for 5? years. That alone makes them marketable and yet untouchable unless the deal is a blockbuster.

MarySwiss
07-10-2006, 09:19 AM
Just so I understand properly, the suggestion on the table is to:

- Trade BA & Fingernails on a blackboard for Schmidt
- Schmidt replaces Vazquez in the rotation, Vazquez replaces Fingernails on a blackboard in the bullpen
- Fields somehow replaces Anderson in CF (or I suppose maybe you want to shift Pods to CF and play Fields in LF. Or maybe you trade Vazquez for a CF and (hopefully) a reliever to fill his role.

All of this instead of just:
- Moving Pods to CF and calling up Fields or starting Mackowiak in LF
- Moving McCarthy to the rotation and Vazquez to the 'pen (or trading Vazquez as in the 3d point above).

I'll say it again: :?:

Not to mention the fact that moving people in/out/and all over the place smack in the middle of a pennant race will have no effect on the morale in the best clubhouse in baseball?

TornLabrum
07-10-2006, 09:34 AM
I am not going to waste my time complaining about a trade until it's announced as a trade.

How often are these insiders right about deals anyway? Real reporters have to name their sources.

More to the point, how often are these "insiders" actually insiders? From their track record, I think they're just ordinary schmucks pulling ideas out of their rectums.

Pequod
07-10-2006, 09:47 AM
...I think they're just ordinary schmucks pulling ideas out of their rectums.

Kinda gives ya a whole new appreciation for the term "Insider" doesn't it? :o:

PatK
07-10-2006, 10:15 AM
Ok, who's bumping threads from a year ago?



That's what I was thinking. I could have sworn that I heard nearly the same rumor last year coming from Bruce Levine.

1917
07-10-2006, 10:31 AM
I went onthe ESPN rumors and there wasn't a word on this

SBSoxFan
07-10-2006, 10:32 AM
I went onthe ESPN rumors and there wasn't a word on this

So the rumor is a rumor? :o:

FloridaSox
07-10-2006, 10:42 AM
I went onthe ESPN rumors and there wasn't a word on this

Buster Olney in his blog discusses the proposed deal and says it is top heavy in favor of Giants.

As for a CF, Olney writes "And what would the White Sox do for a center fielder? Well, they could probably make a deal for a guy they know and love -- Aaron Rowand, who might be one of the pieces sold off by the Philadelphia Phillies before the trade deadline."

So McCarthy and Anderson and a current SP for Schmidt and Aaron. Pretty expensive...but we do get better at two positions.

Ol' No. 2
07-10-2006, 10:55 AM
http://www.insidestl.com/webpics/grind/busterolney.jpg = :dumbass:

Jjav829
07-10-2006, 11:10 AM
Jayson Stark has something on this.



The popular theory is that the White Sox are out looking for bullpen arms. But an executive of one team who has talked to them says they're trying to pry Jason Schmidt away from the Giants.

The Giants have interest in pitcher Brandon McCarthy, who could replace Schmidt in the rotation, and center fielder Brian Anderson. But the White Sox couldn't make that deal unless they also made a companion trade for a replacement center fielder.

"Typical Kenny Williams," said an executive who had heard this talk. "Laying in the weeds, staying quiet and trying to make the biggest deal of them all."

And Olney says:



Heard a good trade rumor late Sunday, and it makes some sense on the face of it (and for now, it stands as speculation, because I didn't have a chance to call either the White Sox or the Giants to check out whether this has any roots). A talent evaluator has heard that the White Sox would trade pitcher Brandon McCarthy and center fielder Brian Anderson to the San Francisco Giants for Jason Schmidt. This would be a classic Kenny Williams move, getting an impact-type pitcher in Schmidt to augment a rotation that has a 4.60 ERA, and from the Giants' perspective, adding McCarthy, in particular, would allow them to get younger, while getting something for Schmidt before he becomes a free agent; Anderson would give the Giants an outfielder who is less than 4,525 years old.

Now, the deal would seem a little top-heavy in favor of the Giants, in this current marketplace in which young players have such great value; maybe some other part would be headed to Chicago.

And what would the White Sox do for a center fielder? Well, they could probably make a deal for a guy they know and love -- Aaron Rowand, who might be one of the pieces sold off by the Philadelphia Phillies before the trade deadline. And maybe Williams would use one of his excess starting pitchers to get it done.

Flight #24
07-10-2006, 11:14 AM
Jayson Stark has something on this.



And Olney says:

OK, so let's say you can somewhow manage Vazquez for Rowand and a reliever (which I doubt, it'll cost more than that).

That will mean you basically traded Duque, Viz, Chris Young, McCarthy, Anderson for Schmidt & a reliever?:(:

I don't think Kenny's that quick to give up on guys, or prone to that type of knee-jerk reaction. If anything, he'll try to deal Vaz for a reliever and/or a CF and move McCarthy to the rotation. But giving up 2 guys he's repeatedly referred to as significant long-term assets to get a FA rental? Uh-uh. Remember, his mantra at this point isn't "1917" anymore, it's "2006-2008"

Jjav829
07-10-2006, 11:26 AM
OK, so let's say you can somewhow manage Vazquez for Rowand and a reliever (which I doubt, it'll cost more than that).

That will mean you basically traded Duque, Viz, Chris Young, McCarthy, Anderson for Schmidt & a reliever?:(:

I don't think Kenny's that quick to give up on guys, or prone to that type of knee-jerk reaction. If anything, he'll try to deal Vaz for a reliever and/or a CF and move McCarthy to the rotation. But giving up 2 guys he's repeatedly referred to as significant long-term assets to get a FA rental? Uh-uh. Remember, his mantra at this point isn't "1917" anymore, it's "2006-2008"

That's why this deal makes no sense. I wouldn't doubt that perhaps KW is trying to trade for Schmidt, but I do doubt that KW would be willing to trade McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt. Maybe he would be willing to trade Vazquez and Anderson for Schmidt if he knows he can trade for a CF. That would at least make some sense as Schmidt could be used for a run this year with McCarthy replacing him in the rotation next year. The problem with trading McCarthy for Schmidt, a free agent after this year, and then dealing a starter like Vazquez for a CF is that at the end of the year we have an open spot in the rotation. Re-signing Schmidt to fill that spot would just make the rotation older and even more expensive. I really do think McCarthy is about as untouchable as anyone on this team just because of his age and salary.

voodoochile
07-10-2006, 11:30 AM
That's why this deal makes no sense. I wouldn't doubt that perhaps KW is trying to trade for Schmidt, but I do doubt that KW would be willing to trade McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt. Maybe he would be willing to trade Vazquez and Anderson for Schmidt if he knows he can trade for a CF. That would at least make some sense as Schmidt could be used for a run this year with McCarthy replacing him in the rotation next year. The problem with trading McCarthy for Schmidt, a free agent after this year, and then dealing a starter like Vazquez for a CF is that at the end of the year we have an open spot in the rotation. Re-signing Schmidt to fill that spot would just make the rotation older and even more expensive. I really do think McCarthy is about as untouchable as anyone on this team just because of his age and salary.

Like I said above, I don't see Anderson going anywhere. Yeah, I screwed up the name of the AAA outfielder the Sox have left (Chris Young already being gone), but Vazquez and prospects (not Fields or Sweeney) is doable.
Send them a high level AAA OF and some AA pitching and then it makes sense, anything more is too much, IMO.

JermaineDye05
07-10-2006, 11:35 AM
The problem with trading McCarthy for Schmidt, a free agent after this year, and then dealing a starter like Vazquez for a CF is that at the end of the year we have an open spot in the rotation. Re-signing Schmidt to fill that spot would just make the rotation older and even more expensive.

unless kenny is planning on using Haeger in the rotation next year which I would hate, no offense to charlie, he's a good pitcher and all I just don't trust knuckleballers, especially if you don't have a catcher to catch them of course there's also Broadway and Tracey but I take McCarthy over Tracey and Broadway's just in double A now so there would have to be some other deal but honestly I don't like the idea of giving away two good young players for Schmidt, and knowing KW I doubt this is gonna happen, just more ESPN bs

spiffie
07-10-2006, 11:42 AM
JJav, you might want to be careful about posting direct quotes from Insider blogs. From their TOS (WDIG is Walt Disney Internet Group):
No material from any WDIG Site or any Internet site owned, operated, licensed, or controlled by us may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way...The use of any WDIG material on any other Web site or computer environment is prohibited.

Don't mean to do any armchair modding, esp. to a mod, but I know sometimes Disney can be very litigious even about stupid little web sites.

caulfield12
07-10-2006, 12:18 PM
We acquired Vazquez, and signed Garland and Contreras to longer deals just so we would be competitive through AT LEAST the 2007 season.

So why would KW put all his eggs into the basket of winning this season when he knows his payroll will be handicapped without plugging Anderson and McCarthy in for cost control over the next four or five seasons?

BA is finally coming around, and it would make no sense to trade him now when the White Sox's patience seems to have been rewarded.

And Aaron Rowand coming back...well, I liked him as a player, but I certainly was not in love with him as an objective baseball observer.

If anything, I would rather start McCarthy and put Vazquez in that relief role. The problem, of course, is that we only have two weeks or so to make a decision...and, we might be placed behind the 8 ball if everyone in baseball knows we need to deal at the deadline.

We are the ones in the position of strength in terms of having 6 serviceable starters...a better deal will come along than this.

As long as we keep McCarthy and Anderson, I'm fine with trading away minor leaguers at this point. Chris Young and Gio Gonzalez might turn out to be studs, but we've really done a pretty good job at identifying the correct youngsters to keep and which ones to deal over time (particularly Crede and Garland, but we also showed patience with Contreras, and hopefully we will be rewarded on Vazquez as well).

Realistically, Josh Fields and Ryan Sweeney can't both be a part of this team. For that to happen, we would have to trade or not re-up Pods or Dye. Well, Dye is an obvious decision for next year...Pods...I'm just glad he has the rest of the season to get his act together. And we have a reasonable facsimile in Jerry Owens...although everyone seems to prefer pushing Josh Fields into LF and creating the all-time bashing team to rival the Oakland A's of the late 80's (who, interestingly enough, lost 2 out of 3 World Series because good pitching almost always knocks off good hitting).

Ol' No. 2
07-10-2006, 12:32 PM
Let me get this straight. The Sox are going to send a young major-league ready pitcher and a top young centerfielder to the Giants for a rent-a-pitcher?:o::o::o:

This one doesn't even deserve the trouble to debunk it.

It's that time of year again, folks.

Next.

sircaffey1
07-10-2006, 01:13 PM
An "or" instead of "and" in Olney's rumor is much more believable. Is there any team out there that would give up a McCarthy and Anderson for half a season of Schmidt? There is either a lot more to the deal or the 'and' should be "or". We all know KW, and we all should know he wouldnt give up both for Schmidt. No worries.

MushMouth
07-10-2006, 01:22 PM
An "or" instead of "and" in Olney's rumor is much more believable. Is there any team out there that would give up a McCarthy and Anderson for half a season of Schmidt? There is either a lot more to the deal or the 'and' should be "or". We all know KW, and we all should know he wouldnt give up both for Schmidt. No worries.

Exactly - I don't doubt the talks, but I'm assuming there is more to it.

ChiSoxlukes
07-10-2006, 01:25 PM
Not saying I want this or this will happen but....two soon to be free agent outfielders on the Giants are Alou and Finley. One of them could take an outfield spot should Anderson be part of the Schmidt deal. Just thought I would mention it.

Ol' No. 2
07-10-2006, 01:26 PM
Exactly - I don't doubt the talks, but I'm assuming there is more to it.Just another case of a reporter in need of a story, putting 2 + 2 together and getting 7,923,498,209. Beats working for a living.

caulfield12
07-10-2006, 01:29 PM
We don't need two left fielders.

Finley is a fourth outfielder and he's not an upgrade over BA offensively or defensively.

mccoydp
07-10-2006, 01:37 PM
unless kenny is planning on using Haeger in the rotation next year which I would hate, no offense to charlie, he's a good pitcher and all I just don't trust knuckleballers, especially if you don't have a catcher to catch them of course there's also Broadway and Tracey but I take McCarthy over Tracey and Broadway's just in double A now so there would have to be some other deal but honestly I don't like the idea of giving away two good young players for Schmidt, and knowing KW I doubt this is gonna happen, just more ESPN bs

This post lost me halfway through...no periods ?!

JermaineDye05
07-10-2006, 02:05 PM
This post lost me halfway through...no periods ?!

lol, yeah what can I say I have bad puntuation skills, tis why i didnt get 100 in english last year

Sox-o-matic
07-10-2006, 02:17 PM
Schmidt + Winn for McCarthy + Anderson I think would be a lot closer to a fair deal, but I still don't think even that would be beneficial to the Sox long term. Anderson will turn it around. If he were in an organization like the Twins for example he would still be in AAA, and McCarthy has far too much upside, and is far too cheap, to let go when you figure that in the next couple of years through (hopeful) extensions to Iguchi, Dye, and Crede the Sox payroll is going to be third in baseball, or very very close to it.

Schmidt is in his walk year and is going to be one of the top, if not the top, pitcher on the market. Unless KW could get him to commit to extending before the trade takes place, I have no idea why he'd trade McCarthy for him.

Now, if KW was planning on making another move - say for example Vazquez for Bedard (even though the O's would be stupid to do that, but then again they are pretty stupid over there) it would make sense because I think the pitching would be improved overall and the salary would be evened out.

But, even if that were the case, these are all moves that would most likely be made over the course of an offseason, not thrown together in a couple weeks before the trade deadline.

spiffie
07-10-2006, 02:26 PM
To put it in perspective Olney in his ESPN chat today said he hadn't had a chance to run all the particulars by White Sox people for their take. So I have no trouble believing KW would have called to find out what it would take for Jason Schmidt. I have no trouble believing that the Giants said it would take Anderson and McCarthy. And I have no doubt that if such a trade were made it would be contingent on picking up a CF, and that Rowand would be someone we would consider trying to get.

That doesn't make any of it true or imminent, since the most important part of the chain is missing. The part where the White Sox agree with any of these things beyond inquiring about Schmidt.

peelwonder
07-10-2006, 02:40 PM
Sorry if this has been posted but I was wondering if anybody else saw the story about trading McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt.......

thomas35forever
07-10-2006, 02:42 PM
They talked about a Schmidt-for-McCarthy deal on the Score this morning. Think that would be more balanced?

spiffie
07-10-2006, 02:42 PM
Hey dude, What's The Score?

thomas35forever
07-10-2006, 02:42 PM
Time to merge.

chaerulez
07-10-2006, 02:44 PM
This needs to stop...

CHIsoxNation
07-10-2006, 02:44 PM
Sorry if this has been posted but I was wondering if anybody else saw the story about trading McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt.......

The SEARCH function is your friend

TornLabrum
07-10-2006, 02:47 PM
lol, yeah what can I say I have bad puntuation skills, tis why i didnt get 100 in english last year

Punctuation isn't your only problem.

Ol' No. 2
07-10-2006, 02:50 PM
They talked about a Schmidt-for-McCarthy deal on the Score this morning. Think that would be more balanced?No chance. There are two things that ARE NOT going to happen.

1. McCarthy getting traded for anyone with a big contract. They need McCarthy in the rotation next year to offset some of the big raises players are going to be getting. I don't see him going anywhere.

2. Any scenario that results in Kenny having to sign a FA starter next winter.

skottyj242
07-10-2006, 02:51 PM
The SEARCH function is your friend

I've been searching for friend for years...to no avail though.

DaleJRFan
07-10-2006, 02:53 PM
They talked about a Schmidt-for-McCarthy deal on the Score this morning. Think that would be more balanced?

No. Maybe Jason Schmidt for Cliff Politte and a B Prospect. Why on earth would anyone want to trade McCarthy (for anyone), especially for a guy who suddenly lost 5 mph on his fastball last year??

His 2.86 ERA in the NLW = 4.50+ in the ALC.

No thanks.

Like ol'no2 said, "NEXT..."

caulfield12
07-10-2006, 05:29 PM
Schmidt has been very strong this year...I know it's the NL, but I've watched him a number of occasions, different stadiums and radar guns, and he is throwing well into the mid 90's again.

If you were talking about Freddy Garcia having a missing fastball, then I would agree, or Politte, to a lesser extent. Maybe they can just rub Thornton or Cotts for good luck on getting their stuff back!

A logical trade would be the following....

McCarthy and Fields/R. Sweeney for Jason Schmidt and one of the following...

Merkin Valdez or J. Accardo (the top prospect likely to replace Benitez as closer)

or Armando Benitez

Obviously they're not going to trade Cain or Hennessey to us, so forget that notion.

soxwon
07-10-2006, 05:47 PM
I think you missed the point of the rumor. Jason Schmidt is going to play CF!

Dont think about it do it NOW!!!!
Awesome trade Jason Schmidt a white sox, jason Schmidt a whitesox
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

Xx i am error xX
07-10-2006, 06:45 PM
Don't know if this has been posted. Rumor is Fingernails + Brian Anderson. Take it for what it's worth. I don't know what I'd think about this.........

JB98
07-10-2006, 06:45 PM
Don't know if this has been posted. Rumor is Fingernails + Brian Anderson. Take it for what it's worth. I don't know what I'd think about this.........

WTS?

chisoxmike
07-10-2006, 06:46 PM
I guess this is going to be this year's Griffey rumor.

QCIASOXFAN
07-10-2006, 06:48 PM
I don't think I will make anything out of this, if it happens I don't see both of those guys going. I can see Garcia or Javey and a minor league prospect before those to guys. Doesn't he get rumored to be traded every year and it never happens?

thomas35forever
07-10-2006, 06:48 PM
Merge please.

Chips
07-10-2006, 06:48 PM
No thank you.

And hey dude, What's the score?

Xx i am error xX
07-10-2006, 06:53 PM
I guess I should start checking that forum? I thought it was weird that I saw no mention of this anywhere else.

Jjav829
07-10-2006, 07:39 PM
I guess this is going to be this year's Griffey rumor.
No, this is going to be this year's Jason Schmidt rumor.

Don't you remember this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53374&highlight=schmidt)? I just realized it's the same rumor! A year later and it's still Anderson and McCarthy! :D:

It does make you think though with two consecutive years of hearing Schmidt rumors, is Schmidt one of KW's guys? You know, the players who he keeps going after until he gets them (like Contreras, Garcia, etc.).

SoxSpeed22
07-10-2006, 07:50 PM
Unless Randy Winn is involved, this doesn't make much sense to trade both of them.

Slats
07-10-2006, 08:24 PM
I'm hoping this is just BS but if not
I hope the deal goes like this

KW announces a trade

Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson
for
Jason Schmidt and Randy Winn

Ol' No. 2
07-10-2006, 08:35 PM
I'm hoping this is just BS but if not
I hope the deal goes like this

KW announces a trade

Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson
for
Jason Schmidt and Randy Winn$15M in payroll with one about to become a FA in exchange for two guys making the minimum with long futures ahead of them.

Great move.

Brian26
07-10-2006, 09:07 PM
Don't you remember this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53374&highlight=schmidt)? I just realized it's the same rumor! A year later and it's still Anderson and McCarthy!

Just to be fair, that thread was from late June of '05. Think about everything that has changed since then. I was originally a proponent of a trade for Schmidt, but that was before: the emergence of Contreras, the trade for Vazquez, losing Rowand, seeing BMac develop, and winning a world championship.

Brian26
07-10-2006, 09:09 PM
$15M in payroll with one about to become a FA in exchange for two guys making the minimum with long futures ahead of them.

Great move.

Doesn't make any sense.

Jjav829
07-10-2006, 09:14 PM
Just to be fair, that thread was from late June of '05. Think about everything that has changed since then. I was originally a proponent of a trade for Schmidt, but that was before: the emergence of Contreras, the trade for Vazquez, losing Rowand, seeing Fingernails on a blackboard develop, and winning a world championship.

I know. I'm just saying it is kind of funny that it's a year later and we're back to talking about McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt. :smile:

Andy T Clown
07-10-2006, 10:00 PM
It's time to wave the white flag. Anyone who thinks this team is going to catch Detroit is crazy!:gulp:

Bobbo35
07-10-2006, 10:05 PM
I hope this is a bad RUMOR!
This is a bad rumor, I do not think that KW will give up a potential starting pitcher and our center fielder for a starting pitcher that could be questionable. I would be a stupid trade.

mccoydp
07-10-2006, 10:21 PM
lol, yeah what can I say I have bad puntuation skills, tis why i didnt get 100 in english last year

:?:

Slats
07-10-2006, 10:25 PM
$15M in payroll with one about to become a FA in exchange for two guys making the minimum with long futures ahead of them.

Great move.

.192 .280 .324

voodoochile
07-10-2006, 10:48 PM
.192 .280 .324

Yeah, but check out his stats from the past month.

Tragg
07-10-2006, 11:00 PM
I'm hoping this is just BS but if not
I hope the deal goes like this

KW announces a trade

Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson
for
Jason Schmidt and Randy Winn Let's see, the RENT of a 33 year old starter with a career ERA of 4 against NL competition, and Randy Winn, the epitome of an average, serviceable CF.

And the only cost would be our 2 best young players.

Horrendous
Most teams wouldn't think of trading away players like McCarthy and Anderson under nearly any circumstances. They would trade prospects....see AAA Charlotte for prospects. That's what we got from the Giants in 1997 - prospects. How did the Giants get Winn? Prospects. What did we get when we rented out Durham? An "organizational minor leaguer". But when we rent, we should give up top talent. Absolutely Senseless.
As a general rule, stay away from NL pitchers, please.

chisoxmike
07-10-2006, 11:01 PM
No, this is going to be this year's Jason Schmidt rumor.

Don't you remember this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53374&highlight=schmidt)? I just realized it's the same rumor! A year later and it's still Anderson and McCarthy! :D:

It does make you think though with two consecutive years of hearing Schmidt rumors, is Schmidt one of KW's guys? You know, the players who he keeps going after until he gets them (like Contreras, Garcia, etc.).

Crap, I totallt forgot about that one. It must have gotten mixed up with all the other ones from last year.

But yes, it is strange that again his name was brought up. Also, wasn't Schmidt high on KW's list prior to the 2004 season?

Tragg
07-10-2006, 11:09 PM
No, this is going to be this year's Jason Schmidt rumor.

Don't you remember this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53374&highlight=schmidt)? I just realized it's the same rumor! A year later and it's still Anderson and McCarthy! :D:

It does make you think though with two consecutive years of hearing Schmidt rumors, is Schmidt one of KW's guys? You know, the players who he keeps going after until he gets them (like Contreras, Garcia, etc.). With KW's track record on national league starting pitchers, I sincerely hope Schmidt and isn't "one of his guys".

The other thing is that infuriates me, is that if you look at what Atlanta gave for McGriff, NY for Johnson, Boston for Schilling, the price is nowhere what people want to give for a player who couldn't hold those players jock-strap - Schmidt and his 3.95 ERA against NL competition.

We didn't get a single prospect of the level of Anderson or McCarthy when we traded Alvarez and Hernandez and Darwin to the Giants.

We went through this last year...trade away all of our young talent for AJ Burnett and Lowell. That would have been nice.
Do that and we'll be where we were from 96-04 in a couple of years...an 84 win team with no budget. Don't blow it with silly trades for what seems to be short term gain while destroying the future.
I shouldn't get so worked up.

spiffie
07-10-2006, 11:23 PM
As a general rule, stay away from NL pitchers, please.
I'm kind of wishing KW had remembered that before he pulled the trigger on the Vazquez trade.

Tragg
07-10-2006, 11:28 PM
I'm kind of wishing KW had remembered that before he pulled the trigger on the Vazquez trade.
Well, no comment, except that it's water under the bridge, and I hope we don't repeat it (although the proposed trades would make Vasquez look like the steal of the year).

oeo
07-10-2006, 11:29 PM
I'm kind of wishing KW had remembered that before he pulled the trigger on the Vazquez trade.
I'd be willing to bet that Vazquez will be much better in the second half. Many of you just expected he was going to come in and dominate (he's our best, #1 starter, etc.). Well, he didn't and I can't believe people were predicting that...just be patient and I think he will come out dominate, just like Contreras of last year.

Slats
07-10-2006, 11:49 PM
Yeah, but check out his stats from the past month.

Ya gotta point there;

Anderson .271 .338 .441

Winn .264 .339 .415

spiffie
07-11-2006, 12:28 AM
I'd be willing to bet that Vazquez will be much better in the second half. Many of you just expected he was going to come in and dominate (he's our best, #1 starter, etc.). Well, he didn't and I can't believe people were predicting that...just be patient and I think he will come out dominate, just like Contreras of last year.
I wasn't looking for dominant. However, considering that we gave up a playoff legend, a solid bullpen arm, and one of the best 2 or 3 prospects in our system (to say nothing of the raise in payroll) I was hoping for at least an upgrade from what we already had in the fifth spot last year.

In 2005 we got a 5.12 ERA out of Hernandez and a 4.03 out of McCarthy. Combined they gave up 103 earned runs in 195 1/3 innings, for a combined era of 4.75. In 2006 we are getting a 5.07 ERA out of Vazquez, with a projected IP of 197. For as much as we gave Arizona and as much as he gets paid, I don't think looking to not have the spot actually turn out to be worse this year is a whole lot to ask.

Of course we probably shouldn't be too surprised. Last year in the NL he posted a 4.42 ERA. In his one AL year he posted a 4.91. Basically his entire reputation is based on good years in 2001 and 2003 (2002 to a much lesser extent with a near-4 ERA). The Sox seemingly made this trade on the same idea as they did with Contreras, feeling they can harness his seemingly Cy Young caliber "stuff" and turn him around. And I really hope they can. But I'm skeptical. Contreras was thrust into an awful situation and pitched unlike himself in NY. Vazquez has been pitching rather poorly for 2.5 years now in 3 different cities with no discernible rationale for his sudden slippage. Hopefully over the break Coop will find the magic to get inside his head and arm and get him pitching like a stud. Or at least get him pitching better than what we had in the #5 spot last year.

dickallen15
07-11-2006, 03:28 AM
I'd be willing to bet that Vazquez will be much better in the second half. Many of you just expected he was going to come in and dominate (he's our best, #1 starter, etc.). Well, he didn't and I can't believe people were predicting that...just be patient and I think he will come out dominate, just like Contreras of last year.

Vazquez has been much worse of a pitcher the second half for the past 2 seasons. He is just not very good.

1917
07-11-2006, 08:36 AM
Vazquez has been much worse of a pitcher the second half for the past 2 seasons. He is just not very good.

Yeah but I'll take a 9-4 5th starter any day of the week and twice on sundays

Thome25
07-11-2006, 08:52 AM
Vazquez has been much worse of a pitcher the second half for the past 2 seasons. He is just not very good.

Vazquez not very good as a 5th starter? Apparently you missed the Danny Wright, Jon Rauch, Lorenzo Barcelo, Pat Daneker, Rocky Biddle, Gary Glover, Scott Schoeneweis revolving door we had at 5th starter over the years.

I'd say Vazquez is pretty good. Everyone is expecting him to be an ace on this staff and he's just the 5th starter and a pretty good one at that. What are we supposed to have? Roger Clemens as our 5th starter?

34 Inch Stick
07-11-2006, 09:08 AM
Vazquez not very good as a 5th starter? Apparently you missed the Danny Wright, Jon Rauch, Lorenzo Barcelo, Pat Daneker, Rocky Biddle, Gary Glover, Scott Schoeneweis revolving door we had at 5th starter over the years.

?

It's even worse. Some of those guys were #3 starters for the Sox.

A. Cavatica
07-11-2006, 09:24 AM
We didn't get a single prospect of the level of Anderson or McCarthy when we traded Alvarez and Hernandez and Darwin to the Giants.

Well, Anderson and McCarthy are no longer "prospects". Anderson is a major league center fielder and McCarthy is a major league pitcher. We surely did not get major league regulars back in the White Flag deal.

We did, however, get some great prospects in that deal. Foulke and Howry went on to have pretty good careers. Caruso had talent but the Sox rushed him, and he couldn't handle it. And Barcelo probably had the most upside of everyone...but got hurt. On balance, we ended up obtaining some good talent in the deal, but not as much as we gave up.

Anyway, I agree with you, giving up even one of Anderson or McCarthy for Jason Schmidt would be overpaying.

spiffie
07-11-2006, 09:39 AM
Yeah but I'll take a 9-4 5th starter any day of the week and twice on sundays
If the Sox gave most average pitchers the kind of run support that Vazquez has received their records would look pretty comprable. In Javy's wins this year the Sox have scored the following: 11, 20, 8, 11, 9, 9, 8, 13, 4. So he's succeeded in getting one win in games where we gave him less than 8 runs. In his losses we scored 7, 4, 4, 0. So basically if we put up 8 or more runs he can get us a win, well except for the Houston game where the 9 we scored weren't enough.

I'd say Vazquez is pretty good. Everyone is expecting him to be an ace on this staff and he's just the 5th starter and a pretty good one at that. What are we supposed to have? Roger Clemens as our 5th starter?
No, but when you give up 3 players and pay $10 million a year to a guy, you expect something better than average. And right now Vazquez is over half a run higher than the AL average ERA. I'm not looking for Roger Clemens. But something better than Vicente Padilla or John Koronka or Gil Meche or Paul Byrd or Casey Fossum would probably be nice (all of which are currently doing better than Vazquez in the AL).

For this year all we can do is hope for the best. But if someone gets blinded by his potential this offseason I would not be averse to shipping him out.

TornLabrum
07-11-2006, 09:55 AM
If the Sox gave most average pitchers the kind of run support that Vazquez has received their records would look pretty comprable. In Javy's wins this year the Sox have scored the following: 11, 20, 8, 11, 9, 9, 8, 13, 4. So he's succeeded in getting one win in games where we gave him less than 8 runs. In his losses we scored 7, 4, 4, 0. So basically if we put up 8 or more runs he can get us a win, well except for the Houston game where the 9 we scored weren't enough.


No, but when you give up 3 players and pay $10 million a year to a guy, you expect something better than average. And right now Vazquez is over half a run higher than the AL average ERA. I'm not looking for Roger Clemens. But something better than Vicente Padilla or John Koronka or Gil Meche or Paul Byrd or Casey Fossum would probably be nice (all of which are currently doing better than Vazquez in the AL).

For this year all we can do is hope for the best. But if someone gets blinded by his potential this offseason I would not be averse to shipping him out.

The Sox aren't paying Vazquez $10 million.

voodoochile
07-11-2006, 10:07 AM
The Sox aren't paying Vazquez $10 million.

Yes they are, but Thome only costs 4...:D:

itsnotrequired
07-11-2006, 10:12 AM
Yes they are, but Thome only costs 4...:D:

Vazquez is owed $11.5 million this year and $12.5 million next year ($24 million total). The D-Backs sent $5 million to the Sox as part of the deal. I'm not sure how that $5 million is split up between the two seasons.

caulfield12
07-11-2006, 10:19 AM
I think it's closer to $7.5 or $8.5 million that we are actually paying him. (On second thought, I think it might be $9.5 million this year and $9.5 million next year...I could be wrong)

It's actually more favorable for next year than this.

Yes, it was a calculated risk. It worked with Contreras and so-so with Vazquez. He's the AJ Burnett of the White Sox, worth more to other clubs based on potential and rep than actual performance. And it gives us the luxury of being the one holding the cards in a seller's market for pitching and gives us cost certainty for our payroll through 2007 and 2008 to some extent. Did you see the prices being paid to starting and relief pitching this off-season? Enough said.

(Wouldn't you feel worse if you were super-genius Billy Beane and had signed Loaiza for over $20 million for 3 years...6 plus ERA...drunken driving charges, etc.)

But we could get the equivalent of Chris Young or Gio Gonzalez back for him if we wanted...remember, the main point of that deal was to get El Duque's contract off the books, we're saving $4-5 million there. And where would Chris Young be playing right now? Obviously he is still a little raw, or he would be starting over Eric Byrnes.

Add up all these things, it doesn't look so bad. And Vizcaino was the last one out of the pen last year. Now, he looks like the equivalent of Riske, but he wasn't "cheap" either considering he wasn't a critical piece.

And you're leaving out Charles Haeger, Josh Stewart and Mike Porzio from that illustrious fifth starters list...Matt Ginter, too.

spiffie
07-11-2006, 10:22 AM
Vazquez is owed $11.5 million this year and $12.5 million next year ($24 million total). The D-Backs sent $5 million to the Sox as part of the deal. I'm not sure how that $5 million is split up between the two seasons.
I knew they sent some money but not a huge amount. I thought we knocked $2 million a year off and espn.com lists his salary as $12,000,000 this year. So with those numbers he's basically a $9.5 million a yr pitcher this and next year, not a $10 million a yr pitcher. Not a very big difference I would say.

But we could get the equivalent of Chris Young or Gio Gonzalez back for him if we wanted...remember, the main point of that deal was to get El Duque's contract off the books, we're saving $4-5 million there. And where would Chris Young be playing right now? Obviously he is still a little raw, or he would be starting over Eric Byrnes.
Considering Arizona was able to trade him early this year we probably could have done the same and flipped Hernandez for a prospect or two this offseason. And even if Young wasn't still playing, he would be here now as a possible piece to ship off to shore up the bullpen or if McCarthy did falter in the 5th spot he could be used as part of a package for a starter. Or we might not need to shore up the pen at all if Vizcaino was still in it.

The only reason this is something that seems worth still even considering is because of the question of what we might do at the deadline. I would not be averse to seeing us go out and get a better starter and trading Vazquez either before the break or after the season to help restock the farm system. Someone at the end of this year will see his 16 or so wins he might end up with, remember 2001 and 2003, and probably be willing to give a couple of solid prospects up for him. At this point that seems to me the best use of him. Of course, I'd love him to make me look totally wrong about this and go off with a 3.00 ERA in the second half and have me thanking the lucky stars that we got him.

itsnotrequired
07-11-2006, 10:32 AM
I knew they sent some money but not a huge amount. I thought we knocked $2 million a year off and espn.com lists his salary as $12,000,000 this year. So with those numbers he's basically a $9.5 million a yr pitcher this and next year, not a $10 million a yr pitcher. Not a very big difference I would say.

The D-Backs got $9 million from the Yankees and ended up sending $5 million to the Sox. So they made out with $4 million. Vazquez got $10.5 million in 2005 so the D-Backs got a one year rental for only $6.5 million.

caulfield12
07-11-2006, 10:40 AM
All I know is everyone was very doubtful we could deal El Duque without having to pay for part of his salary, due to his injury history and age. KW did that, but he had to give up Young instead of the money. He also got Vizcaino off the books, which looked good at the time.

OTOH, we still have Fields, Owens and Sweeney to use as bargaining chips. Like Vazquez, Sweeney is very highly coveted by a lot of GM's out there, despite questions concerning his ability to play RF and put up at least 15-18 homers per season.

Fields is improving his status each and every day. Theoretically, all three of those players are expendable...a lot depends on Dye and Crede, but we can have Dye through 2007 and Crede through 2008. Owens isn't as valuable, more valuable in the sense that he's the only legit internal or organizational replacement we have for Pods as leadoff hitter and catalyst.

Ol' No. 2
07-11-2006, 10:45 AM
I'd be willing to bet that Vazquez will be much better in the second half. Many of you just expected he was going to come in and dominate (he's our best, #1 starter, etc.). Well, he didn't and I can't believe people were predicting that...just be patient and I think he will come out dominate, just like Contreras of last year.I agree. Kenny and Coop have a pretty good track record in this regard. People here were going nuts when they got Thornton, too, but he's only turned into one of the Sox' most reliable relievers. They obviously see something in Vazquez they think they can fix, and they've more than earned the benefit of the doubt. He was pretty good the first half of 2004 with the Yankees before he fell apart. He obviously has the ability - he just isn't harnessing it properly. Also remember that Vazquez' numbers from last year are a bit inflated playing in Arizona - his ERA+ was 99.

Thome25
07-11-2006, 11:02 AM
No, but when you give up 3 players and pay $10 million a year to a guy, you expect something better than average. And right now Vazquez is over half a run higher than the AL average ERA. I'm not looking for Roger Clemens. But something better than Vicente Padilla or John Koronka or Gil Meche or Paul Byrd or Casey Fossum would probably be nice (all of which are currently doing better than Vazquez in the AL)

Who in the AL no check that. Who in MLB has the luxury of a 5th starter who is better than Vazquez, Padilla, Koronka, Meche, Byrd, or Fossum?

I'll answer that for you. NO ONE. We are expecting Vazquez to live up to a crappy contract that he signed while he was with the Yankees. What do we want out of him? Does he need to be as good or better that Buehrle or Contreras? NO Can he be as good or better than Buehrle or Contreras? PROBABLY NOT.

He's a fifth starter making Ace money. Just because he makes that kind of money doesn't mean he's going to be Schilling, Liriano, Contreras or any of the guys you mentioned for that matter.

He's a 5th STARTER and an above average one in today's pitching deficient league. That's a pretty nice luxury to have in the 5-hole.

TheOldRoman
07-11-2006, 11:12 AM
Who in the AL no check that. Who in MLB has the luxury of a 5th starter who is better than Vazquez, Padilla, Koronka, Meche, Byrd, or Fossum?

I'll answer that for you. NO ONE. We are expecting Vazquez to live up to a crappy contract that he signed while he was with the Yankees. What do we want out of him? Does he need to be as good or better that Buehrle or Contreras? NO Can he be as good or better than Buehrle or Contreras? PROBABLY NOT.

He's a fifth starter making Ace money. Just because he makes that kind of money doesn't mean he's going to be Schilling, Liriano, Contreras or any of the guys you mentioned for that matter.

He's a 5th STARTER and an above average one in today's pitching deficient league. That's a pretty nice luxury to have in the 5-hole. Our problem has not been Vazquez as the 5th starter. Our problem has been Garcia and Garland ahead of him. Garcia has been consistantly inconsistant, and has looked downright bad at times. Garland started out rough, but looks like he has started to turn it around. If Vazquez was our only worry in the rotation, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
As frustrating as Javier has been, I am confident that he will turn it around.

tulsasoxfan
07-11-2006, 11:14 AM
Just heard the Sox are looking at Jason Schmidt for B. Anderson and McCarthy. Also that A. Rowand is available.

The Dude
07-11-2006, 11:18 AM
Just heard the Sox are looking at Jason Schmidt for B. Anderson and McCarthy. Also that A. Rowand is available.
Thanks for the update Big Ben!

What's the score is the forum for this breaking news.

1917
07-11-2006, 11:22 AM
Just heard the Sox are looking at Jason Schmidt for B. Anderson and McCarthy. Also that A. Rowand is available.

You're new, I'll explain, all RUMORS go to Whats the Score...If there is talk between 2 people on the CTA, it will get posted here, believe me

FedEx227
07-11-2006, 11:22 AM
Also that A. Rowand is available.

You think we could trade Jon Garland for him?

tulsasoxfan
07-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Sorry .... Just sounded like it was close to a done deal.

rowand33
07-11-2006, 11:31 AM
Sorry .... Just sounded like it was close to a done deal.

well, I certainly hope it's not.

what an awful trade.

twsoxfan5
07-11-2006, 11:33 AM
Tulsa,
Where did you here this? I have heard these rumors as well, but is there really someone out there saying this is close to a done deal?

twsoxfan5
07-11-2006, 11:35 AM
well, I certainly hope it's not.

what an awful trade.

I dont think it is awful trade. You have to think about the fact that Schmidt is going to be a free agent, but if we were to get Rowand back as well as Schmidt I would consider it an upgrade in both positions.

spiffie
07-11-2006, 11:43 AM
Who in the AL no check that. Who in MLB has the luxury of a 5th starter who is better than Vazquez, Padilla, Koronka, Meche, Byrd, or Fossum?
Right now Toronto, Detroit, LAA and Texas in the AL are running out rotations where all 5 starters have better ERA than Vazquez. There are to be fair mitigating circumstances with Toronto and LAA.

I'll answer that for you. NO ONE.
Well, except for the ones who are. But ok. Based on potential I can see where you're coming from.

We are expecting Vazquez to live up to a crappy contract that he signed while he was with the Yankees. What do we want out of him? Does he need to be as good or better that Buehrle or Contreras? NO Can he be as good or better than Buehrle or Contreras? PROBABLY NOT.

He's a fifth starter making Ace money. Just because he makes that kind of money doesn't mean he's going to be Schilling, Liriano, Contreras or any of the guys you mentioned for that matter.

He's a 5th STARTER and an above average one in today's pitching deficient league. That's a pretty nice luxury to have in the 5-hole.
Actually, he's pretty much average. He's an average pitcher right now who will throw a few nice starts and then some horrible ones. His W-L looks awesome because he leads the majors in run support, with the Sox having a 9.09/9IP run support ratio for him. The team has averaged over 1 run per inning for him while he is pitching. There are few pitchers in baseball who aren't going to win a bunch of games when they simply need to keep their ERA somewhere in the neighborhood of 8.50 or so.

Like I said, we're stuck with him for now, I guess. I would not be sad to see him go, as I think that money could be spent better. If KW were to go get a solid SP, with the understanding they would be trading Javy for prospects in the offseason, I would support it as long as we kept BA and McCarthy.

1917
07-11-2006, 11:45 AM
Sorry .... Just sounded like it was close to a done deal.

Did you hear this on anything other then the Rumor central on ESPN or Buster Onley?

spiffie
07-11-2006, 11:46 AM
Did you hear this on anything other then the Rumor central on ESPN or Buster Onley?
And was there a cell phone and an airport baggage claim area involved?

FedEx227
07-11-2006, 11:47 AM
I dont think it is awful trade. You have to think about the fact that Schmidt is going to be a free agent, but if we were to get Rowand back as well as Schmidt I would consider it an upgrade in both positions.

Where's Schmidt going in the rotation then?

6th?

Dropping Vazquez out?

How are you assuming we get both players? Who else would we give up for Rowand?

Please guys, this is a first-place team, don't let the fact that we're in 2nd fool anybody, thats a by-product of the Tigers being a great team and just happening to be in our divison. We don't need gigantic upgrades that will eventually derail our future. Do I really want a 32-year old 1-2 year rental for 2 extremely talented young players? No, and most Sox fans shouldn't.

MadetoOrta
07-11-2006, 11:48 AM
Sorry .... Just sounded like it was close to a done deal.

You'll know it's a done deal when you see me and thousands of other Sox fans on the street in front of the Cell like this

:chunks

MushMouth
07-11-2006, 11:52 AM
anything new on the actual rumors?

I think I fall into the "Schmidt is worth it" camp, depending on the rest of the deal... We're selling out games and JR is surely ready to spend more cash, and if it's a rental, so be it - AS LONG as McCarthy is around next year to take over that 5 spot.

1917
07-11-2006, 11:53 AM
I wouldn't throw up with having Rowand back at the cost of Anderson...we know what we are getting with him, Anderson is still a "wait and see"...plus Row is still young too

tulsasoxfan
07-11-2006, 11:53 AM
Local radio sports show ...for what its worth

twsoxfan5
07-11-2006, 11:57 AM
Where's Schmidt going in the rotation then?

6th?

Dropping Vazquez out?

How are you assuming we get both players? Who else would we give up for Rowand?

Please guys, this is a first-place team, don't let the fact that we're in 2nd fool anybody, thats a by-product of the Tigers being a great team and just happening to be in our divison. We don't need gigantic upgrades that will eventually derail our future. Do I really want a 32-year old 1-2 year rental for 2 extremely talented young players? No, and most Sox fans shouldn't.


I dont think it is the best trade out there but I dont think it is awful. And yes I think Vasquez would be dropped out of the rotation and probably be used as the trade bait to get the centerfielder we would need if Anderson is gone. Pitching is what won us the World Series last year and this rotation is not cutting it this year. Our team ERA is 4.54, which is something like 9th in the league. Not to say that the rotation cant improve, but I think an upgrade would be best.

Ol' No. 2
07-11-2006, 12:18 PM
Local radio sports show ...for what its worthWorth nothing. These guys just make stuff up so they have something to talk about.

MushMouth
07-11-2006, 12:21 PM
Is the idea that we'd move McCarthy/Anderson for Schmidt, then move Vazquez to Philly for Rowand- straight-up?

man, only if we can get a young arm from them. Although we do have a wealth of young arms in AAA. Couldn't we move Haeger for Rowand?

Someone clear up the specific rumors if I'm wrong here

1917
07-11-2006, 12:29 PM
Is the idea that we'd move McCarthy/Anderson for Schmidt, then move Vazquez to Philly for Rowand- straight-up?

man, only if we can get a young arm from them. Although we do have a wealth of young arms in AAA. Couldn't we move Haeger for Rowand?

Someone clear up the specific rumors if I'm wrong here

Which would leave a bigger hole in our BP...has this trade rumor been mentioned on any Chi radio stations? Has Bruce even chimned in on it?

Craig Grebeck
07-11-2006, 12:47 PM
So why do we want Rowand?
.264/.317/.434 in a hitter's haven

DickAllen72
07-11-2006, 01:23 PM
Here's a better deal:

I just read that the Marlin's Miguel Cabrera said he wants to play for a Spanish speaking manager. So......

Let's trade McCarthy, Fields, Sweeney, Broadway & one other prospect for Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera.

Hey, just as much chance as this happening than trading McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt, and at least the Sox don't get ripped off on this one. :cool:

1917
07-11-2006, 02:13 PM
Doesn't vasquez have a no trade clause? I thought he waived it to come to the Sox, but I swore he has one...

Ol' No. 2
07-11-2006, 02:17 PM
Doesn't vasquez have a no trade clause? I thought he waived it to come to the Sox, but I swore he has one...No. He got traded from the Yankees to the D-backs during a long-term contract, which gave him the right to demand a trade.

BTW, for all you Randy Winn fans, he does have a NTC, although I'm pretty sure he'd waive it to move to a WS contender.

spiffie
07-11-2006, 02:27 PM
Here's a better deal:

I just read that the Marlin's Miguel Cabrera said he wants to play for a Spanish speaking manager. So......

Let's trade McCarthy, Fields, Sweeney, Broadway & one other prospect for Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera.

Hey, just as much chance as this happening than trading McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt, and at least the Sox don't get ripped off on this one. :cool:
Hmmm...perhaps we could swing it as a 3-way deal, get some other team to throw a few prospects for Vazquez and Crede, we keep 1 or 2, the rest go to FL.

1917
07-11-2006, 03:02 PM
Another thought, isn't SF in contention in that crappy NL west? I mean why would they trade there #1 pitcher?

voodoochile
07-11-2006, 03:18 PM
Another thought, isn't SF in contention in that crappy NL west? I mean why would they trade there #1 pitcher?

Because it's the Sox and WSI says they should...:rolleyes:

CLR01
07-11-2006, 03:39 PM
I dont think it is awful trade. You have to think about the fact that Schmidt is going to be a free agent, but if we were to get Rowand back as well as Schmidt I would consider it an upgrade in both positions.
I wouldn't throw up with having Rowand back at the cost of Anderson...we know what we are getting with him, Anderson is still a "wait and see"...plus Row is still young too


Rowand is not coming back to the Sox. He is gone, time to accept that fact and get on with your life. It will hurt for a while but eventually you will find some other mediocre player to worship and soon enough you will forget all about Rowand.

CLR01
07-11-2006, 03:43 PM
You think we could trade Jon Garland for him?


What's sad is there are a few people here that would make that trade and throw in a "A" prospect or two to make sure it gets done.

MRM
07-11-2006, 03:53 PM
Here's a better deal:

I just read that the Marlin's Miguel Cabrera said he wants to play for a Spanish speaking manager. So......

Let's trade McCarthy, Fields, Sweeney, Broadway & one other prospect for Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera.

Hey, just as much chance as this happening than trading McCarthy and Anderson for Schmidt, and at least the Sox don't get ripped off on this one. :cool:

I love this one. Then trade Crede and a prospect for Crawford.:D: If Reindsorf reads this thing, he's salivating right now, lol.

dwalteroo
07-12-2006, 11:00 AM
Guys, there's an Insider article up on ESPN that appears to suggest the Sox are interested in Jason Schmidt. :?: Anyone have access and can summarize?

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2***b %2ffeatures%2frumors

RowanDye
07-12-2006, 11:01 AM
What's the score?

INSox56
07-12-2006, 11:02 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=74843

DaleJRFan
07-12-2006, 11:02 AM
:o: OH NO!!!

This rumor has been addressed in "What's the Score" a few times. Its bogus.

JermaineDye05
07-12-2006, 11:04 AM
here we go again....oh and btw considering its on the insider article just take that as a "it aint gonna happen" didnt they have an article in the offseason talking about the sox trading for Vizquel?

dwalteroo
07-12-2006, 11:06 AM
My bad - I missed that discussion. Thanks guys.

Tragg
07-12-2006, 03:26 PM
Rowand is not coming back to the Sox. He is gone, time to accept that fact and get on with your life. It will hurt for a while but eventually you will find some other mediocre player to worship and soon enough you will forget all about Rowand.
He also has 8 homer and a .316 OBP. i.e., he isn't that good and Williams was correct in evaluating the talent on hand in CF.
See the price the Astros paid for Huff? Winn should be cheaper...period.
Giving up any sort of top talent to RENT jason schmidt is ridiculously stupid.

DaleJRFan
07-12-2006, 03:33 PM
He also has 8 homer and a .316 OBP. i.e., he isn't that good and Williams was correct in evaluating the talent on hand in CF.
See the price the Astros paid for Huff? Winn should be cheaper...period.
Giving up any sort of top talent to RENT jason schmidt is ridiculously stupid.

Is that a smart move considering he's 31 and not all that great??? I've never seen him play in the field, but his fielding statistics this year indicate he's pretty average if not "plus" in CF. 2.74 RF with only one error.

His contract looks a little heavy, signed through 2009 - 3 years and $23.25 million:
$7 million in 2007
$8 million in 2008
$8.25 million in 2009

EDIT: I just noticed that Winn has 93 hits aready this year with only 33 strikeouts. Walks are low, though resulting in a lower BA and OBP. Looks like a pretty solid option, despite his age.

rowand33
07-12-2006, 04:07 PM
Winn has a giant contract for a player of his caliber no thanks

I was pretty down on brian for a while

but he's been showing me something lately

since June 11th (about a month ago today) Brian has hit .281

and let's not forget anderson's amazing defense in center field.

Unless we're getting somebody like Jones or Griffey, I say no thanks to a trade.

I also don't think we can upgrade from the starting pitching that much. They just need to play much, much better.

All I want is this: a quality veteran righty for the bullpen like roberto hernandez or somebody and a quality 4th outfielder that can play CF and the corners decently and has a decent bat (David Dellucci, Steve Finley, Willie Bloomquist, Brady Clark. etc).

then DFA Gload and Cliff.

that's all we need.

Sargeant79
07-12-2006, 05:15 PM
and let's not forget anderson's amazing defense in center field.

Unless we're getting somebody like Jones or Griffey, I say no thanks to a trade.



I like Anderson's defense better than that of Jones or Griffey. All those two bring is more offense, which is not what we need. The Sox are a better team with Anderson playing CF.

Domeshot17
07-12-2006, 09:58 PM
I like Anderson's defense better than that of Jones or Griffey. All those two bring is more offense, which is not what we need. The Sox are a better team with Anderson playing CF.

Are you stoned? if you are then I forgive you, but if not, common now. Andruw Jones is the best defensive CF in baseball. Better then Aaron, Better then Edmonds, Better then Anderson, HE IS THE CREAM OF THE CROP. I know anderson is our guy, and I like him, but saying no to Andruw Jones is like saying no to Roger Clemens because we have Jon Garland. If there is a chance to get him, you get him and dont think twice.

Sargeant79
07-12-2006, 10:55 PM
Are you stoned? if you are then I forgive you, but if not, common now. Andruw Jones is the best defensive CF in baseball. Better then Aaron, Better then Edmonds, Better then Anderson, HE IS THE CREAM OF THE CROP. I know anderson is our guy, and I like him, but saying no to Andruw Jones is like saying no to Roger Clemens because we have Jon Garland. If there is a chance to get him, you get him and dont think twice.

I respectfully disagree. Jones is an outstanding defensive center fielder, and I would easily put him in the top three in baseball. But while he would obviously be a huge offensive upgrade, I'd consider Anderson just as good on defense at this point. And as I mentioned, offense isn't where the Sox have problems.

Anderson already has some of the best instincts I've ever seen, a great arm that he can use accurately, and while I haven't seen him climb any walls (yet), he makes the same type of run-saving acrobatic plays that any of the other guys you mentioned are capable of. While he has made the typical rookie mistake or two, he is a stud in the field. If we're only talking defense, I'd say he's just as good as Jones, just without the years of experience and the however-many-million dollar salary.

Domeshot17
07-13-2006, 12:51 AM
I agree Anderson is very, very good CF. But His arm is just average to above average, not great. Its not a cannon, and ( I think its a rookie thing) but he makes bad choices with his throws. He tends to think (like pods as well haha) he can throw anyone out and doesnt hit the cut off man.

My thinking with andruw is, Brian becomes the 4th OF we need, and we put it in his head he is still the guy in the future. Other winning teams have done the same thing with prospects (mets with lastings, who was playing better then Brian, Yanks are a bad example because melky got forced in) He will take over in LF or RF in a year or 2, depending on how options play out, and now you talk about having th best defensive OF imaginable in Anderson-Jones-Dye when we let pods go. But thinking of this year, we know the pitching has just been bad. And if we arent going to upgrade the pitching, and we say either the pitching gets good, or we out-slug the other team, then adding a potential 45-50 homer bat who, on a coinflip, doesnt cost you anything defensively and may even be an upgrade with the glove as well.

Right now, Anderson is gettin 3-4 games a week anyway. If hes paying well, then if he plays a game in CF, game in right, game in left, and DH a game, hes still gonna get his ABs. He is a GREAT defensive replacement in other games and a very good pinch runner. Plus, you cant tell me that the pitching wont be better with the defensive upgrade behind them, especially when it means Ozuna is not in LF misplaying all sorts of balls.

If you could get Andruw and Tim Hudson for Freddy or Bmac, Owens, Rogowski Heager and a b spec, I would do that IN A HEARTBEAT. Rogo, owens, great specs, blocked in the system, Freddy or Bmac repaced by Huddy, who is a gamer, and Jones is an amazing player. That deal would take this team to an entirely new level.

Credefan21
07-13-2006, 01:36 AM
hey tulsa sox fan? are u from tulsa oklahoma? I live about 55 minutes from there..

rowand33
07-13-2006, 02:05 AM
I like Anderson's defense better than that of Jones or Griffey. All those two bring is more offense, which is not what we need. The Sox are a better team with Anderson playing CF.

well, here's the thing...

both Griff and Jones are solid defensive players and a huge offensive upgrade in CF. They're both very good in the field and are much better than anderson's offensive upside. So I would take the slight decline in defense (even though that's debatable).

TheOldRoman
07-13-2006, 02:22 AM
Are you stoned? if you are then I forgive you, but if not, common now. Andruw Jones is the best defensive CF in baseball. Better then Aaron, Better then Edmonds, Better then Anderson, HE IS THE CREAM OF THE CROP. I know anderson is our guy, and I like him, but saying no to Andruw Jones is like saying no to Roger Clemens because we have Jon Garland. If there is a chance to get him, you get him and dont think twice.
Andruw Jones WAS far and away the best centerfielder in baseball... a few years and and a couple hundred steaks ago. I am not saying that Anderson is better than him defensively, but he is extremely close this year. It makes no sense whatsoever to give up 2-3 top prospects for an 8 hitter who will hit .275. He won't improve our outfield defense, and we will owe him $15 million next year.

And don't even get me started on getting Clemens. All I have to say is, compare his 2003 to the last 2 years. If he returned to tha AL, you can slap another 2 runs onto his ERA.

TheOldRoman
07-13-2006, 02:42 AM
I agree Anderson is very, very good CF. But His arm is just average to above average, not great. Its not a cannon, and ( I think its a rookie thing) but he makes bad choices with his throws. He tends to think (like pods as well haha) he can throw anyone out and doesnt hit the cut off man.

My thinking with andruw is, Brian becomes the 4th OF we need, and we put it in his head he is still the guy in the future. Other winning teams have done the same thing with prospects (mets with lastings, who was playing better then Brian, Yanks are a bad example because melky got forced in) He will take over in LF or RF in a year or 2, depending on how options play out, and now you talk about having th best defensive OF imaginable in Anderson-Jones-Dye when we let pods go. But thinking of this year, we know the pitching has just been bad. And if we arent going to upgrade the pitching, and we say either the pitching gets good, or we out-slug the other team, then adding a potential 45-50 homer bat who, on a coinflip, doesnt cost you anything defensively and may even be an upgrade with the glove as well. Ridiculous. If you want to see for outslugging opponents works, look at the 2001-2004 Sox and the Yankees since 2000. Our pitching will improve, but that is not my point. At most, Jones would be a miniscule upgrade defensively. Let's call it a wash.

We don't need more power in the lineup. We have the second best record in baseball right now, and we are scoring loads of runs. Andruw Jones would bat 7 or 8 in our lineup. We don't need to pay such a high price because we don't need 40-50 homers coming out of the 7 hole. We would be giving up 2-3 top prospects for a 7 hitter who we will owe $15 million next year. If we are giving up those 2-3 prospects, we might as well get pitching, which you admit we could use.

Besides that, Anderson would be part of any deal to get Jones. If the Braves dump their CF, they will need a new one. Also, it wouldn't do Brian any good to sit on the bench and get a game or two a week. He needs to learn by playing everyday at the major league level. Millegde was in the minors last year, and Melky Cabrera is not in either's league.

If we are going to get rid of our prospects, we could fill more pressing needs. A $15million pitcher would improve this team more than Andruw Jones would. This trade doesn't improve us enough to make it worthwhile. It would be throwing prospects and money on the fire.

Ol' No. 2
07-13-2006, 09:26 AM
Ridiculous. If you want to see for outslugging opponents works, look at the 2001-2004 Sox and the Yankees since 2000. Our pitching will improve, but that is not my point. At most, Jones would be a miniscule upgrade defensively. Let's call it a wash.

We don't need more power in the lineup. We have the second best record in baseball right now, and we are scoring loads of runs. Andruw Jones would bat 7 or 8 in our lineup. We don't need to pay such a high price because we don't need 40-50 homers coming out of the 7 hole. We would be giving up 2-3 top prospects for a 7 hitter who we will owe $15 million next year. If we are giving up those 2-3 prospects, we might as well get pitching, which you admit we could use.

Besides that, Anderson would be part of any deal to get Jones. If the Braves dump their CF, they will need a new one. Also, it wouldn't do Brian any good to sit on the bench and get a game or two a week. He needs to learn by playing everyday at the major league level. Millegde was in the minors last year, and Melky Cabrera is not in either's league.

If we are going to get rid of our prospects, we could fill more pressing needs. A $15million pitcher would improve this team more than Andruw Jones would. This trade doesn't improve us enough to make it worthwhile. It would be throwing prospects and money on the fire.From a monetary point of view, I could see how you could argue that the money for Jones could be better spent. But the post that started this made no mention of money. Whether the team "needs" more offense or not, an upgrade this large will ALWAYS make your team better. It's not like Anderson is a leadoff hitter or fills some other offensive niche as was the case in the Lee-Podsednik trade. Money aside, if you could replace Brian Anderson with Andruw Jones, you'd be an idiot not to do it.

Sargeant79
07-13-2006, 09:44 AM
Domeshot: you make a few good points, but consider these things:

1.) Anderson would go in a trade for Jones. He's a CF and exactly the type of big-upside, major league player the Braves would want.

2.) Anderson wouldn't be the only cost. It will cost McCarthy. They won't want Vazquez or Garcia because if Jones is on the block, it's because they're shedding salary.

3.) Let's just say Anderson is not traded. First, your plan of platooning him at CF & DH does little for his major league development. I understand he is playing only 4 days a week now, and I think that is a problem. I think our pitchers would benefit more from having him out there every day than Mackowiak 2-3 days a week. Second, what happens next season? Does Anderson stay a 4th outfielder next year while we pay Jones 15 mil? If so, then you have a starting pitching staff + Andruw Jones making 75 mil. Where does the money come from for extensions and/or additions? Can't trade a starter because you have no more McCarthy to slide into the rotation. Can't lock up Crede unless the payroll expands again...do you trade him? Do you let Buehrle go instead of extending him at 12-14 mil per year?

Getting Jones would be extremely shortsighted and would do little to provide what we need to win this year. The salary ramifications and the timing of it would potentially be a huge problem for the next 2-3 years. And as TheOldRoman pointed out earlier, Jones has probably lost a step in the last couple years, putting him pretty close to even with Anderson. Griffey has lost several steps...he's a corner outfielder now, not a center fielder.

I'm not opposed to getting a rental CF for the rest of the season if the price is right, but neither Jones, Griffey, and even Rowand is the answer. And there is no one else who may even possibly be available that would be an upgrade over what we already have.

TheOldRoman
07-13-2006, 09:47 AM
From a monetary point of view, I could see how you could argue that the money for Jones could be better spent. But the post that started this made no mention of money. Whether the team "needs" more offense or not, an upgrade this large will ALWAYS make your team better. It's not like Anderson is a leadoff hitter or fills some other offensive niche as was the case in the Lee-Podsednik trade. Money aside, if you could replace Brian Anderson with Andruw Jones, you'd be an idiot not to do it. The prospects could be better spent, also. Our CF defense is fine. This trade would be made only to improve our offense out of the 9 hole (Uribe would move down and Jones would bat 7). Our 7 hitter is much less important than more pitching. If we can get Jones for, say, a Bajenaru type, you have to go for it. However, if you are talking 2-3 top prospects, you would be crazy to go for it. You just aren't improving the team enough.

spiffie
07-13-2006, 09:51 AM
I don't disagree in theory with the idea of replacing BA with Andruw Jones. The defense is a wash or something very close and the offense is an obvious improvement. However, the prices people are mentioning to get him seem absurd for a guy who right now would be barely 4th highest OPS on the team. If the Braves were interested in a pure salary dump with maybe one or two of our non top-5 prospects then I would say we should explore it. Especially if you figure that KW is at least possibly thinking of trading a starter this offseason (make room for McCarthy) which would clear 9-10 million in payroll. So sure, I would do Jones for say Haeger and some AA guy. But I wouldn't include McCarthy, Anderson, Owens, Liotta, Broadway or Fields in the discussion. If they would take that, pull the trigger. If not, I feel confident with what we have lineup wise.

Jones: 271/348/500 (.848)
Thome: 298/414/651 (1.065)
Konerko: 313/384/559 (.943)
Crede: 294/331/512 (.843)
Dye: 318/397/646 (1.043)
Pierzynski: 320/365/444 (.809)
Iguchi: 287/346/429 (.775)
Mackowiak: 309/396/407 (.803)

(edited because I can't spell)

Sargeant79
07-13-2006, 09:55 AM
Money aside, if you could replace Brian Anderson with Andruw Jones, you'd be an idiot not to do it.

Yes, but unless we're talking about fantasy league teams here (or the Yankees), money is a reality that must always be considered. Spending it wisely can make or break your team. On paper, the Podsednik/Vizcaino for Lee trade looks like it favors the Brewers. But that freed up salary that allowed us to persue El Duque, Iguchi, Pierzinski, and others that are vital components to last year's team (and this year's, in the case of the latter two).

NOT trading for Jones not only keeps an inexpensive player with great defense in CF, but it possibly means keeping McCarthy to slide into the rotation (at the expense of a starter who will be traded to free up more money), possibly extending Crede, Dye and Buehrle, and who knows what else. Even though Jones's contract expires after 2007, you would then have to take some of that money to sign a center fielder because you've traded away Anderson already.

While we absolutely want to win now, thinking past this year is always prudent. Kenny Williams spent last offseason getting us in a position to win this year and for several years to come. Getting Andruw Jones would handicap that goal.

If we go after anything at the deadline, it should be pitching. Period.

Ol' No. 2
07-13-2006, 09:58 AM
I don't disagree in theory with the idea of replacing BA with Andruw Jones. The defense is a wash or something very close and the offense is an obvious improvement. However, the prices people are mentioning to get him seem absurd for a guy who right now would be barely 4th highest OPS on the team. If the Braves were interested in a pure salary dump with maybe one or two of our non top-5 prospects then I would say we should explore it. Especially if you figure that KW is at least possibly thinking of trading a starter this offseason (make room for McCarthy) which would clear 9-10 million in payroll. So sure, I would due Jones for say Haeger and some AA guy. But I wouldn't include McCarthy, Anderson, Owens, Liotta, Broadway or Fields in the discussion. If they would take that, pull the trigger. If not, I feel confident with what we have lineup wise.

Jones: 271/348/500 (.848)
Thome: 298/414/651 (1.065)
Konerko: 313/384/559 (.943)
Crede: 294/331/512 (.843)
Dye: 318/397/646 (1.043)
Pierzynski: 320/365/444 (.809)
Iguchi: 287/346/429 (.775)
Mackowiak: 309/396/407 (.803)I agree any likely trade that would bring Jones to the White Sox would probably not be in the Sox best interest. But what started this all was this statement:
The Sox are a better team with Anderson playing CF.That's so ludicrous as to be beyond comment.

spiffie
07-13-2006, 10:22 AM
I agree any likely trade that would bring Jones to the White Sox would probably not be in the Sox best interest. But what started this all was this statement:
That's so ludicrous as to be beyond comment.
I guess one could say the Sox as a team, considering all future possibilities for the years to come could be seen as better with Anderson considering the likely trades for Jones and the ramifications thereof.

But there is no way on the planet to say that having Anderson in CF is better today than Jones. That is, as the kids on the street might say, crazygonuts.

Sargeant79
07-13-2006, 11:02 AM
But there is no way on the planet to say that having Anderson in CF is better today than Jones. That is, as the kids on the street might say, crazygonuts.

Fair enough; I should have been more specific. How about this: The Sox defense is better with Anderson in the field this year, and replacing him with Jones would adversely impact the strength of the team for years to come, owing to the residual effects of his contract.

Better?

And I know some of you may not agree, but I really do feel that Anderson's defense is currently just as good if not better than anyone's in the league, including that of Jones. We have plenty of offense. Having Anderson in CF every day makes our pitching better. When he hits consistently (and I have no doubt he will), we will be happy we kept him. Within two years, I'm certain that many people will be calling him one of the best all around CFs in baseball.

areilly
07-13-2006, 11:51 AM
Within two years, I'm certain that many people will be calling him one of the best all around CFs in baseball.

That's possible...but two years from now the Sox may be out of contention again. Look at the difference between 1983 and 1985.

1993 vs. 1995.

2000 vs. 2002.


Baseball is a fickle sport and you can't bank on building a perennial contender, so any player's future worth is not enough to bet a season on - especially a season where you have a very real chance of going all the way.

I don't care what BA is capable of; if CF can be improved smartly, there's not reason not to do it.

Hell, that goes for any position as far as I'm concerned.

Ol' No. 2
07-13-2006, 12:08 PM
That's possible...but two years from now the Sox may be out of contention again. Look at the difference between 1983 and 1985.

1993 vs. 1995.

2000 vs. 2002.


Baseball is a fickle sport and you can't bank on building a perennial contender, so any player's future worth is not enough to bet a season on - especially a season where you have a very real chance of going all the way.

I don't care what BA is capable of; if CF can be improved smartly, there's not reason not to do it.

Hell, that goes for any position as far as I'm concerned.Ahhh...the old "who cares about next year, we have to go for it THIS year" argument. The odd thing is that most of the people saying that this year were also saying it last year.:o:

Domeshot17
07-13-2006, 12:25 PM
My point with outslugging wasnt that That is how I want this team to be, but if thats how its GOING to be, then we better load up.

To be honest, Im not too worried about money. This team isnt hurting, our payroll may say 98 or 104 or whatever the bottom dollar is, but we are paying closer to 75-80 with the thome/vazquez/yankee (remember they are paying some of contreras IIRC) etc money. And not only is attendance WAY WAY UP, but Merchandising Revenue is up over 100% this year. Anytime you live in chicago, and you make something that says WORLD CHAMPIONS on it, its going to make $$$$.

I, honestly, think the whitesox could hit about 125-130 in payroll and stll make money. The thing with Andruw Jones is, he is a HUGE Draw. Lets say 1/2 of white sox fans arent happy with Anderson right now. If you could find a way to get jones in a deal for Owens inlue of Anderson, Its going to make chicago go CRAZY.

I agree that the offense is REALLY REALLY GOOD, maybe, just maybe, the best chicago has ever saw. But you cant tell me that Pods-Tadahito-Thominator-PK-Dye-AJ-Crede-(Anderson/Uribe/Mackowiak) Doest seem a little better with Pods-Tada-Thome-PK-Dye-Jones-AJ-Crede-Uribe. And for improving the pitching, My original offer I had posted included Tim Hudson, who may be available. He is a guy really struggling since he lost a good pitching coach, and we have one who has been known to ressurect careers, could be ideal. If we took on 22-23 mil in payroll (which would lead to either trading Vazquez or Freddy, so make it somewhere near 14 mil taken on) the braves just might do it for Owens Rogowski Heager and 2 minor specs. We then move Freddy or Vaz for 2 good specs, probably pitching, Maybe to the brewers for a bill hall or Nelson Cruz, Corey Hart etc.

IMHO, I watch a good amount of braves games on TBS. He looks the same as usual. Great Routes, Incredible Arm, good speed and range. Imagine what he could do in a little bit smaller of a park both offensivey and defensively.

Ol' No. 2
07-13-2006, 12:46 PM
My point with outslugging wasnt that That is how I want this team to be, but if thats how its GOING to be, then we better load up.

To be honest, Im not too worried about money. This team isnt hurting, our payroll may say 98 or 104 or whatever the bottom dollar is, but we are paying closer to 75-80 with the thome/vazquez/yankee (remember they are paying some of contreras IIRC) etc money. And not only is attendance WAY WAY UP, but Merchandising Revenue is up over 100% this year. Anytime you live in chicago, and you make something that says WORLD CHAMPIONS on it, its going to make $$$$.

I, honestly, think the whitesox could hit about 125-130 in payroll and stll make money. The thing with Andruw Jones is, he is a HUGE Draw. Lets say 1/2 of white sox fans arent happy with Anderson right now. If you could find a way to get jones in a deal for Owens inlue of Anderson, Its going to make chicago go CRAZY.

I agree that the offense is REALLY REALLY GOOD, maybe, just maybe, the best chicago has ever saw. But you cant tell me that Pods-Tadahito-Thominator-PK-Dye-AJ-Crede-(Anderson/Uribe/Mackowiak) Doest seem a little better with Pods-Tada-Thome-PK-Dye-Jones-AJ-Crede-Uribe. And for improving the pitching, My original offer I had posted included Tim Hudson, who may be available. He is a guy really struggling since he lost a good pitching coach, and we have one who has been known to ressurect careers, could be ideal. If we took on 22-23 mil in payroll (which would lead to either trading Vazquez or Freddy, so make it somewhere near 14 mil taken on) the braves just might do it for Owens Rogowski Heager and 2 minor specs. We then move Freddy or Vaz for 2 good specs, probably pitching, Maybe to the brewers for a bill hall or Nelson Cruz, Corey Hart etc.

IMHO, I watch a good amount of braves games on TBS. He looks the same as usual. Great Routes, Incredible Arm, good speed and range. Imagine what he could do in a little bit smaller of a park both offensivey and defensively.You're way overestimating the amount of money they got with those deals. All three together amount to only about $6M a year, putting the Sox "real" payroll in the low $90M range. You also have to consider raises due to some key players next year. Buehrle, Dye, Crede, Garcia, Garland, and Contreras will all make significantly more next year.

I just don't see Kenny making big in-season moves. He may tweak a little, but they're playing pretty damn well, so why screw it up? Next winter...who knows?

But then, with Kenny you never know.

INSox56
07-13-2006, 02:02 PM
Well nothing will happen this week anyway because it's Thursday already...

Frater Perdurabo
07-13-2006, 02:16 PM
:tomatoaward: :tomatoaward"

Squeezing tomato juice out of a rumour! :o: Imagine that!

MadetoOrta
07-13-2006, 04:21 PM
Sounds like the CF KW's looking at is Houston's Chris Burke.

monkeypants
07-14-2006, 12:31 AM
Getting back to the original trade in this thread, Ken Rosenthal says it's not going to happen.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5782994
Forgive me if this was mentioned already in the thread but I didn't want to read through the whole thing.

TornLabrum
07-14-2006, 08:50 AM
Getting back to the original trade in this thread, Ken Rosenthal says it's not going to happen.

Now there's a surprise!

Tragg
07-14-2006, 09:21 AM
The thing with Andruw Jones is, he is a HUGE Draw. People jam ballparks to see Andruw Jones? Come on.
He's a very good hitter (the c lee type) and he plays excellent d, dives for balls, etc.