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View Full Version : At this point who would you rather have?


Beer Can Chicken
07-09-2006, 02:08 AM
Vazquez or Duque and Viz?

At his point was the trade really worth it?

dagame2005
07-09-2006, 02:13 AM
At this point, I'd say its about a wash. However, Vazquez has great stuff and is more than capable of going on a solid run in the 2nd half. We shall see. I'm rooting for him. I think I am amongst the few on this forum that likes the guy.

DickAllen72
07-09-2006, 02:25 AM
El Duque, Vizcaino and Young. Right now the Sox don't have a legit centerfielder in the organization behind Anderson.

RealMenWearBlack
07-09-2006, 03:02 AM
At this point, I'd say its about a wash. However, Vazquez has great stuff and is more than capable of going on a solid run in the 2nd half. We shall see. I'm rooting for him. I think I am amongst the few on this forum that likes the guy.

Honestly, I think everyone here is rooting for him, and I didn't get the impression that people here didn't like him as a person. I don't like him right now because he's been mediocre as of late and has one of the larger contracts on our team (although I'm unsure how much money AZ sent with him in the trade).

Playah
07-09-2006, 03:03 AM
I'd rather have Vasquez

He has amazing stuff and he'll settle down to be a great pitcher for us

Playah
07-09-2006, 03:04 AM
El Duque, Vizcaino and Young. Right now the Sox don't have a legit centerfielder in the organization behind Anderson.

The reason we traded Young is because Anderson rocks. Give him a chance.

Domeshot17
07-09-2006, 03:13 AM
we have been giving brian a chance, and while no one is calling for his head, he hasnt hit above 200 in any month yet, and has shown little improvement at the all star break. IIRC, he hasnt even had a weekly stretch of hitting over 300. Looking for a CF this season, and letting brian try again next isnt a bad idea. His D has been nice, but Augie Ojeda had one of the most amazing gloves in baseball, so did Rey Ordonez. They didnt stick around very long.

Vazquez too, i think he is a guy who will ALWAYS live on potential. All you hear is how amazing he could be, and he never really is. Era over always 4, inconsistent, cant put it together. Going to NY killed his chances of being truly special.

That said, I wish we still had duque and viz. Viz was solid in the bullpen, and Duque would probably be hurt by now, so bmac would be in the rotation, forcing Kw to get a real right handed set up man.

Playah
07-09-2006, 03:16 AM
Anderson is AMAZING on defense and he's finally starting to hit well

By his own admission he didnt have a swing until a few weeks ago. Now he's looking good up there and batting just under 300 recently

PLAY HIM

SouthSide_HitMen
07-09-2006, 03:37 AM
I would rather have a little faith in Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen. They deserve it based on last season and this season. There are 28 other teams who would love to have our record. We have been underperforming on the field. I see a big second half and an end to the second guessing. :cool:

I love Brian Anderson and I think Vazquez will get better with Cooper working with him. Cooper did a great job last year and did a great job turning around an inexperienced and poor bullpen start to this season. He will get the starters in line in the second half and postseason.

QCIASOXFAN
07-09-2006, 03:48 AM
I'd rather have Vasquez

He has amazing stuff and he'll settle down to be a great pitcher for usYour preaching to the choir over here. I think that Vasquez is a awesome pitcher, who has what like 4 or 5 great pitches that he can throw over for a strike. I don't get why people think he is a problem right now. He is obviously not on his game. When he gets on his game though hitters will have no chance. Settle down people! If the Tigers haven't been so good we would not be talking about this!!!!!!

bigsqwert
07-09-2006, 10:54 AM
He has amazing stuff and he'll settle down to be a great pitcher for usNot sure why you are saying that with such certainty. Looking at his previous history it seems that he will continue to be mediocre.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-09-2006, 10:56 AM
I wish the trade never happened. Hopefully, Javy turns it around though.

slobes
07-09-2006, 11:05 AM
Vasquez was fine at the beginning of the year. I think he's got better stuff than El Duque, but he's just gotta pick it up in the 2nd half.

Thome25
07-09-2006, 11:07 AM
I'd take Vazquez in a heartbeat. All you need to do is compare El Duque in the #5 spot last year and Vazquez in the 5-spot this year. Vazquez is a better number 5 starter.

Vazquez has better stuff and a better record than Duque last year. Their ERAs from last year to this year are probably a wash.

I'm glad Vizcaino is gone. Everytime he came into a game it got me nervous. I always thought the opposing hitters were going to light him up.

bigsqwert
07-09-2006, 11:13 AM
Vazquez has better stuff and a better record than Duque last year. Their ERAs from last year to this year are probably a wash.Better record? Maybe that's because of the run support. If Duque was given the same run support wouldn't he have had a similar record given that he gave up about as many runs?

Beer Can Chicken
07-09-2006, 11:13 AM
I was a big fan of the trade (and Vazquez) when it happened. Looking back now, I think we could have gotten a comparable and probably even better 5th starter for much, much cheaper.
I was expecting great things from Vazquez, hopefully he can turn it around but looking at his last couple of years, it might not happen.

Thome25
07-09-2006, 11:22 AM
Better record? Maybe that's because of the run support. If Duque was given the same run support wouldn't he have had a similar record given that he gave up about as many runs?

Which would you rather have? A oft-injured 5th starter who is pushing 40 (if that is his real age) in El Duque? Or a younger pitcher, with better stuff, and a better record? I don't care how he got that record he's still the better pitcher PERIOD.

Some say that if we didn't make the Vazquez trade, El Duque would be in the bullpen this year and McCarthy would be the 5th starter. I don't think we'd be better off in that situation either. El Duque is too old and injured all the time and McCarthy has been bad too.

We're better off with Vazquez.

bigsqwert
07-09-2006, 11:27 AM
Thome25, he's our highest paid pitcher and he's not very good. We lost 3 guys for him. Maybe I'm just frustrated but the deal seems to be a faliure.

TornLabrum
07-09-2006, 11:37 AM
Thome25, he's our highest paid pitcher and he's not very good. We lost 3 guys for him. Maybe I'm just frustrated but the deal seems to be a faliure.

He may be "our" highest paid pitcher, but "we're" not paying most of his salary. "They" are.

Thome25
07-09-2006, 11:38 AM
Thome25, he's our highest paid pitcher and he's not very good. We lost 3 guys for him. Maybe I'm just frustrated but the deal seems to be a faliure.

OK we lost 3 guys but what did we really give up?

1.) A prospect who hasn't proved himself and may never prove himself.

2.) An aging veteran who is injured all the time and probably would be at the very least even with Vazquez right now. (which is highly unlikely. my guess is Duque would more than likely have been on the DL at least once this season for us.)

3.) A relief pitcher who wasn't one of our best and made people nervous everytime he entered the game. (Vizcaino's numbers may be good in the NL but remember that's the NL we're talking about.)

Vasquez may be the highest paid pitcher on our staff right now but does that mean he should be pitching like Jose Contreras right now? That's unfair to judge him by his contract especially since we weren't the one's who gave it to him in the first place.

Judge him in the role he's in right now. He's the #5 starter Compared to other #5 starters in MLB and even compared to our #5 from last year, I'd say he's pretty good. He also has the chance to get better with the stuff he has. Can we say that El Duque and Vizcaino had a shot at getting better? I'd have to say no.

jabrch
07-09-2006, 11:46 AM
Vazquez has thrown over 198 IP for 6 straight seasons. That's a nice quality to have for a 5th stater.

santo=dorf
07-09-2006, 12:26 PM
Better record? Maybe that's because of the run support. If Duque was given the same run support wouldn't he have had a similar record given that he gave up about as many runs?
Or maybe it due to the starting pitcher having to pitch at least 5 innings for the win.

That's something El Duque had trouble with.

Jjav829
07-09-2006, 12:33 PM
Vazquez, but the reason question is Vazquez or McCarthy. If the Vazquez trade was never made, McCarthy would be our 5th starter, not El Duque.

Domeshot17
07-09-2006, 12:48 PM
I love the theory that AS LONG AS HE HAS MORE WINS HE IS A BETTER PITCHER. Thats a fine and dandy (well not really) way of thinking, but here is the reason why it just doesnt work Thome25.

Last Year, Clemens won something like 12 games, era just over 2.
Vazquez will probably win 14 this year, 5 more wins isnt that unseeable with the runsupport he gets. Lets say his era stays the same, above 5.

You're telling me the pitcher who won 2 more games, with an era 3 runs higher, is better then the pitcher who dominated games, and lost a bunch of them 2-1 or 2-0?

Vazquez has been LUCKY. Pitchers with an era over 5 seldom have winning records. He is a key for the 2nd half. If he turns it on, he has the ability to carry a team like Contreras has. However, people have been saying it for years with Vaz.

DickAllen72
07-09-2006, 12:52 PM
The reason we traded Young is because Anderson rocks. Give him a chance.

Did you read what I posted? "Right now the Sox don't have a legit centerfielder in the organization behind Anderson."

Jurr
07-09-2006, 12:55 PM
I love the theory that AS LONG AS HE HAS MORE WINS HE IS A BETTER PITCHER. Thats a fine and dandy (well not really) way of thinking, but here is the reason why it just doesnt work Thome25.

Last Year, Clemens won something like 12 games, era just over 2.
Vazquez will probably win 14 this year, 5 more wins isnt that unseeable with the runsupport he gets. Lets say his era stays the same, above 5.

You're telling me the pitcher who won 2 more games, with an era 3 runs higher, is better then the pitcher who dominated games, and lost a bunch of them 2-1 or 2-0?

Vazquez has been LUCKY. Pitchers with an era over 5 seldom have winning records. He is a key for the 2nd half. If he turns it on, he has the ability to carry a team like Contreras has. However, people have been saying it for years with Vaz.
This is clearly a post from someone who has totally missed the point. Those of us that sat on this board as Sox fans through the days of Danny ****ing Wright and Felix Diaz, Jon Rauch, Arnie Munoz, and the rest of the rabble are happy.....ECSTATIC to have a pitcher that can actually WIN out of the fifth slot. Do you know how many teams would LOVE to have Vazquez in their rotation, where they're hoping for 10 runs to even have a chance when their fifth starter comes up? Puhhh-lease.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2006, 01:01 PM
Vazquez...period.

Lip

Thome25
07-09-2006, 01:07 PM
I love the theory that AS LONG AS HE HAS MORE WINS HE IS A BETTER PITCHER. Thats a fine and dandy (well not really) way of thinking, but here is the reason why it just doesnt work Thome25.

Last Year, Clemens won something like 12 games, era just over 2.
Vazquez will probably win 14 this year, 5 more wins isnt that unseeable with the runsupport he gets. Lets say his era stays the same, above 5.

You're telling me the pitcher who won 2 more games, with an era 3 runs higher, is better then the pitcher who dominated games, and lost a bunch of them 2-1 or 2-0?

Vazquez has been LUCKY. Pitchers with an era over 5 seldom have winning records. He is a key for the 2nd half. If he turns it on, he has the ability to carry a team like Contreras has. However, people have been saying it for years with Vaz.

Yeah being in there 5 plus innings which is long enough for the victory is being lucky. (something el duque couldn't do.) Being a 200 innings eater the last 6 years straight is being lucky.
I never said he was better just because his record is better.

Vazquez is better than anything else the White Sox would've had in the #5 spot because he's young, more durable, and flat-out has better stuff.

Comparing him to Clemens or any other #1 is not only wrong but, it's also unfair. Vazquez is a #5 starter and should be compared accordingly. If you compare him to El Duque, McCarthy or any other #5 starter in the league right now I'd have to say that he's pretty good. Who else has 9 wins from their #5 WITH the potential to get better?

No one.

Hitmen77
07-09-2006, 01:09 PM
we have been giving brian a chance, and while no one is calling for his head, he hasnt hit above 200 in any month yet, and has shown little improvement at the all star break. IIRC, he hasnt even had a weekly stretch of hitting over 300. Looking for a CF this season, and letting brian try again next isnt a bad idea. His D has been nice, but Augie Ojeda had one of the most amazing gloves in baseball, so did Rey Ordonez. They didnt stick around very long.

Oh, GMAB! Have you even watched any games over the last month? Anderson has improved ALOT at the plate. He's getting better at bats and he's been getting hits too.

Please check your calendar, today is July 9, not June 9.

Jurr
07-09-2006, 01:13 PM
Oh, GMAB! Have you even watched any games over the last month? Anderson has improved ALOT at the plate. He's getting better at bats and he's been getting hits too.

Please check your calendar, today is July 9, not June 9.
Thank you. I remember the "Row, row, row, your ass out of Chicago" brigade humming the same tune for years. How about the "get Joe Randa...Crede and his looong swing sucks" group? God forbid it actually takes a person TIME to adjust to a new job, performed at a higher level.

Hitmen77
07-09-2006, 01:17 PM
Right now, I would take McCarthy as our 5th starter, Vizcaino in the bullpen, Young in the minors as a backup/future trade bait, AND El Duque to either use or trade for even more bullpen help. I think we would have been better off up til now with all of this instead of a struggling 5th starter in Vazquez and McCarthy struggling in his transition to the pen.

That being said, the book isn't closed on this deal. By the end of the season, I'm hopeful that we'll look back and see this as a great trade for the Sox. Vazquez has the potential to be lights-out in the 2nd half. But, as of today, I think it hasn't been a good trade for us.

sox1970
07-09-2006, 01:32 PM
Vazquez had 7 quality starts in his first 10 starts. Since then, he's 1 for 7 in quality starts, and the one he got was the 20-6 game against the Cardinals when it was 11-0 in the third inning.

I wouldn't say I'm against the trade, but Vazquez better get his act together, along with the Buehrle and Garcia, or Sox fans may be in for a rude awakening in the second half.

I don't want to see a collapse, but I acknowledge the possibility is there.

0o0o0
07-09-2006, 01:40 PM
Vazquez had 7 quality starts in his first 10 starts. Since then, he's 1 for 7 in quality starts, and the one he got was the 20-6 game against the Cardinals when it was 11-0 in the third inning.

I wouldn't say I'm against the trade, but Vazquez better get his act together, along with the Buehrle and Garcia, or Sox fans may be in for a rude awakening in the second half.

I don't want to see a collapse, but I acknowledge the possibility is there.
Of course the possibilty is there, but I think it's much more likely that at least 2 of the 3 you mentioned will get their **** together. As frustrating as it's been to watch Vazquez lately, I still think he can get back to his early season form.

SoxShirt
07-09-2006, 01:44 PM
Of course the possibilty is there, but I think it's much more likely that at least 2 of the 3 you mentioned will get their **** together. As frustrating as it's been to watch Vazquez lately, I still think he can get back to his early season form.

Yes.

markopat
07-09-2006, 02:04 PM
Vazquez...period.

Lip

Lip...pretty straight forward answer...no need to elaborate...eh?

I concur!

Jurr
07-09-2006, 02:25 PM
Lip...pretty straight forward answer...no need to elaborate...eh?

I concur!
I prefer Danny Wright. Bring him back from the woods of Arkansas.

Domeshot17
07-09-2006, 05:08 PM
Just because I think Vazquez has been bad doesnt mean I dont remember the Danny Wright, Rauch (might as well just call it the revolving door of 5 men). My point was, He has been bailed out by his offense. Is he a good 5th starter, yes, could he be an amazing 5th starter, yes. He has great potential, but he has not put it together for an entire year yet. He reminds me a ton of Garland. But the bottom line is, when we are looking up at a team that isnt losing, and playing great baseball, if we expect to win, we gotta do the same, and any starting pitcher, 1-5, giving up over 5 runs a game, isnt doing it.

And with my comment about BA, I agree he is one of the best defensive CF in the game, and I should have stated I think his APPROACH has become much improved. But he is still finding himself down in counts, and the numbers havent come around yet. Im not sure if it was this thread or another, but i stated that I think Brian will be the CF of the future and be the CF for a long time, but we cant look past a rent-a-CF type IF WE INSIST ON A PLATOON because Mack isnt cutting it. Its to bad we cant genetically combine macks offense with brians defense! ha

Like I said, I dont hate Vazquez, I dont hate Anderson, but I think both of them need to get it together, because we are in the thick of a race

churlish
07-09-2006, 08:28 PM
I love the theory that AS LONG AS HE HAS MORE WINS HE IS A BETTER PITCHER. Thats a fine and dandy (well not really) way of thinking, but here is the reason why it just doesnt work Thome25.

Last Year, Clemens won something like 12 games, era just over 2.
Vazquez will probably win 14 this year, 5 more wins isnt that unseeable with the runsupport he gets. Lets say his era stays the same, above 5.

You're telling me the pitcher who won 2 more games, with an era 3 runs higher, is better then the pitcher who dominated games, and lost a bunch of them 2-1 or 2-0?

Vazquez has been LUCKY. Pitchers with an era over 5 seldom have winning records. He is a key for the 2nd half. If he turns it on, he has the ability to carry a team like Contreras has. However, people have been saying it for years with Vaz.

And they were saying it for years with Contreras. Give him a chance. If Williams traded Contreras last year because of his inconsistency, the Sox don't win the World Series. Vazquez had a lot of success with the Expos, and he has great stuff, so there's a good chance that he will turn it around.

Jerksticks
07-09-2006, 10:11 PM
Vazquez is fine. Sweaty Freddy makes me way more nervous when he's pitching. His stuff always looks shaky (except for his last start against the beaners), and he gives up way too many homers. 20 already! All of our pitchers have sucked this first half, even the count at times. We cannot pitch much worse than we have, so the second half should be exciting.
57-31 pitching like ass.
70-10 pitching like beasts.
RELAXXXXXXXXXXX.

I'm new here but some of you understand how awesome Vazquez is compared to past 5th starters. Vazquez would be #1 on the rotation of Sirotka, Parque, JB, and Eldred that won the Central.

Do you all agree that Freddy is making a case to become Fingernails 2?

Chips
07-09-2006, 10:20 PM
Vazquez...period.

Lip

I couldn't agree more.

Look at all the other pro Vazquez posts and I agree with them 100%.

Hitmen77
07-10-2006, 09:42 AM
....And with my comment about BA, I agree he is one of the best defensive CF in the game, and I should have stated I think his APPROACH has become much improved. But he is still finding himself down in counts, and the numbers havent come around yet. Im not sure if it was this thread or another, but i stated that I think Brian will be the CF of the future and be the CF for a long time, but we cant look past a rent-a-CF type IF WE INSIST ON A PLATOON because Mack isnt cutting it. Its to bad we cant genetically combine macks offense with brians defense! ha

Like I said, I dont hate Vazquez, I dont hate Anderson, but I think both of them need to get it together, because we are in the thick of a race

Anderson's batting average since June 1 is .236. Since June 11, his avg. has been .281. He is definitely improving.

I have no idea why Ozzie is still platooning him with Mackowiak.

spiffie
07-10-2006, 11:57 AM
I'm new here but some of you understand how awesome Vazquez is compared to past 5th starters. Vazquez would be #1 on the rotation of Sirotka, Parque, JB, and Eldred that won the Central.
Sirotka 2000: 15-10, 197 IP, 3.79 ERA, 136 ERA+
Vazquez 2006: 9-4, 108 IP, 5.07 ERA, 91 ERA+

Not even close. Sirotka in 2000 had one of the lowest ERAs in the AL. Vazquez isn't even at the league average. I'd take Sirotka from 2000 in a heartbeat over Javy.

SOXfnNlansing
07-10-2006, 12:18 PM
Vazquez hands down

WWE Champion
07-10-2006, 12:22 PM
All we need is for Vazquez to show some heart and keep the big inning away that hurts him every start. If he wouldn't let things pile up like that, he'd be fine. He better be good the 2nd half of the season because he's not going to be a factor in the playoffs. El Duque could have been out of the bullpen, but not Vazquez. That said, I'm not bemoaning the trade. I think right now, it was a wash, but there's potential for it to lean in the Sox's favor.

wdelaney72
07-10-2006, 12:25 PM
It took over a half a season for Contreras to get his act together, now look at him. Vazquez is a very similar situation, where he has amazing stuff, but lacks the ability to "pitch". By "pitch" I mean, get ahead of the batter and then put him away with one of his moving pitches. I think this is how Coop has worked with all of the guys on the staff and it has paid dividends. I'm still willing to give Vazquez more time.