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View Full Version : *Offical* 7-8-06 This one hurts


norsepalehoser
07-08-2006, 04:17 PM
Ouch, Cant score with bases juiced and no outs in 7th hurt

102605
07-08-2006, 04:17 PM
Ouch

kwolf68
07-08-2006, 04:19 PM
Break cant come soon enough...Need Coop to start working with the starting pitchers now that he has Thornton tidied up.

32nd&Wallace
07-08-2006, 04:22 PM
What is with Buerhle and Garcia being unable to keep their focus after bonehead plays in the field?

DoItForDanPasqua
07-08-2006, 04:22 PM
I'm not worried about leaving the bases loaded. They are scoring plenty of runs; it's the fact that they are giving up a ton of runs, on a regular basis, that bothers me

Medford Bobby
07-08-2006, 04:22 PM
Man, and Seattle has already conceded this weekends games to the Tigger's.....boy this smartz..............:angry:

At least this game is OVER.........:supernana:

Domeshot17
07-08-2006, 04:22 PM
nothing went right so far. the 3 4 5 cant hit after the 5th. The SP cant get into the 6th, the bullpen cant throw strikes, ozzie cant remember who is a starting pitcher and who is a relief pitcher. Thank god we get 3 days off from this circus. I love this team, but they really need to play hard, and start caring, because this is getting sickening, because beating bad teams works until the playoffs, and then you face the good ones.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2006, 04:22 PM
Well that sucked didn't it?

Another poor, desultory performance.

In the last year and a half this may have been the worst week for the pitching staff that I can remember. I understand Boston is going to get their runs, but 15 in one game to the Cubs? Baltimore hangs eight on them twice?

No excuse.

Let's hope the Mariners and Devil Rays decide to show up tonight.

Lip

WSox8404
07-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Thank God we got Thome this year. If we didn't get him and out pitching staff pitched like they are pitching this year we would be about 10 games out and I am not exagerating when I say that.

SpartanSoxFan
07-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Whatever happened to this team's bread-and-butter starting pitching?!?!

When you have to rely on the longball to outslug a team like the Red Sox, you are living dangerously. Dye and Thome can't do it all. :(:

nasox
07-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Last year we were swept right before the all star break by the As and it worked out for us so meh. I already got it out of my system.:smile:

0o0o0
07-08-2006, 04:24 PM
Papelbon takes care of the best mid-lineup in baseball with ease.

Poor showing thus far against one of the better teams in baseball.

Wrong Sox look like they want it more.

At least we got our best going tomorrow to salvage a game.

chisoxmike
07-08-2006, 04:26 PM
Last year we were swept right before the all star break by the As and it worked out for us so meh. I already got it out of my system.:smile:

Wow. Last year we could afford to be swept at the All Star Break, we still LED the AL Central at 9 games. This year we can't be swept, Seattle has already started their All Star Break

TaylorStSox
07-08-2006, 04:27 PM
All of our starters are pitching away from contact. It's like they're scared of the bat. We're seeing way too many breaking balls. I'd like to see more fastballs and cutters in.

I'm not worried. They all know what they're doing and will correct the problem.

Palehose13
07-08-2006, 04:28 PM
The game was disappointing, but I'm not going to get all worked up about it. This team is 25 games over .500 and still looks pretty good.

Come back and get 'em tomorrow!

DickAllen72
07-08-2006, 04:28 PM
The Sox need a centerfielder.

Mackowiak can't be the starting centerfielder. That bloop into CF early in the game should have been caught.

With the mediocre pitching the Sox have this year, they can't afford to have a centerfielder who hits .235, let alone .175. If the Sox aren't confident Anderson can hit good right handed pitching, they need another guy who can while playing good defense in CF.

I'm also surprised Crede played today in a day game after a night game. He looks like he can use a rest. He's banged up and tired.

For a team that was supposedly based on pitching, speed and defense, this year's team has become a slug it out team. Last year's team was better because the pitching was better.

Ugly game today. Too many LOB, but that's what happens with a slugging team.

QCIASOXFAN
07-08-2006, 04:28 PM
Well, we had our chances and I think I will chalk that up in the category of one that got away.

MERPER
07-08-2006, 04:28 PM
When are people going to finally admit that our starting pitching is becoming a real serious issue? We all know very well that the offense will not win in the playoffs (should we get there)..... The pitching has been miserable this season, despite what their records say....:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

0o0o0
07-08-2006, 04:29 PM
All of our starters are pitching away from contact. It's like they're scared of the bat. We're seeing way too many breaking balls. I'd like to see more fastballs and cutters in.

I'm not worried. They all know what they're doing and will correct the problem.

I'm not disputing the fact that the starters will turn it around, because I think they will. But if they know what they're doing, then why are they still doing it? :dunno:

greenpeach
07-08-2006, 04:29 PM
I'm not worried about leaving the bases loaded. They are scoring plenty of runs; it's the fact that they are giving up a ton of runs, on a regular basis, that bothers me

Ding....ding...ding No more calls please we have a winner. The reason why we're 2 games out in the loss column is because Detroit has gotten better starting pitching then us during the first half. In addition, this was with Mike Maroth on the 60-day DL list. Hitting comes & goes, but pitching needs to be a constant.

Blueprint1
07-08-2006, 04:30 PM
:whiner: I thought we were going to win this one. I will be there tomorrw and am sad to say they lose everytime I go.

32nd&Wallace
07-08-2006, 04:30 PM
Grow up Freddy! Grow up Neal!

Lip Man 1
07-08-2006, 04:31 PM
Blueprint:

Simple...don't go.

Lip

21stcenturySox
07-08-2006, 04:31 PM
The whole team looks tired and I can't understand why they're wearing BLACK jerseys on a hot and humid day.
:angry:
Black should only be used for night games.

aryzner
07-08-2006, 04:31 PM
Isn't this our first series loss in... how long...?

ChiSoxGirl
07-08-2006, 04:32 PM
I knew our fate was sealed in the 7th when Beckett loaded the bases and the Red Sox bullpen got him out of it. With our offense, there's no excuse for leaving ducks on the pond like that.

I said it in last night's postgame thread and I'll say it again, I think Crede not being picked for the All-Star Game is a major blessing in disguise. He has looked flat at the plate over the past few games and a fair amount of ground balls have gotten past him down the line. The other night, Hawk noted that Crede is one of the more difficult hitters to strike out in the game because he has learned to fight off those inside and close pitches; I've seen him strikeout quite a few times this week. I'm a Crede supporter and fan, but he just really needs these three days to clear his mind and heal both physically and mentally.

It's up to Contreras tomorrow, and I'm hoping I'll see a winner for the last Sox game before the break.

Patrick134
07-08-2006, 04:33 PM
The red sox are a very good team, especially with the bats. We swept them in the 3 most important games of their season last october. So them taking 2 meaningless ( when compared to last year's) games shouldnt be time for panic.

Goodman6
07-08-2006, 04:35 PM
Ouch, Cant score with bases juiced and no outs in 7th hurt

Yes, that inning was a killer today. However, if one of our starting pitchers could find a way to give up less than 5 runs so we are not always trying to rally from behind, maybe we can beat these guys. We did score 6 runs today. Last year that would have been enough. It seemed like Freddy imploded when Mackowiak failed to take charge and catch that pop up by Nixon. I do like Mack's bat, but we hurt defensively without Brian in CF. No offense to Mack......... he is not a CF but he is trying to do his best. Let's hope some of our pitchers can get themselves straightened out during the All-Star break. With the way Vasquez, Garcia and Buehrle have been pitching of late, we are going to have a hard time catching Detroit if those guys don't turn it around in the 2nd half.

chisoxmike
07-08-2006, 04:35 PM
I said it in last night's postgame thread and I'll say it again, I think Crede not being picked for the All-Star Game is a major blessing in disguise. He has looked flat at the plate over the past few games and a fair amount of ground balls have gotten past him down the line. The other night, Hawk noted that Crede is one of the more difficult hitters to strike out in the game because he has learned to fight off those inside and close pitches; I've seen him strikeout quite a few times this week. I'm a Crede supporter and fan, but he just really needs these three days to clear his mind and heal both physically and mentally.



It's very obvious Crede is playing hurt. His third base has been average for the past two weeks. I'm glad he's not going to the Burgh, he needs to rest that back.

TaylorStSox
07-08-2006, 04:36 PM
I'm not disputing the fact that the starters will turn it around, because I think they will. But if they know what they're doing, then why are they still doing it? :dunno:

Even pro's get into bad habits from time to time. I would think that a veteran, winning staff will come around, especially when their biggest problem is mental. The only guy whose stuff has noticably declined is Garcia.

Medford Bobby
07-08-2006, 04:43 PM
Even Jill Carleson's happy smile can't take the sting away on the postgame show......:o:

Domeshot17
07-08-2006, 04:43 PM
The thing that scares me most, if the playoffs were around the corner, would we have a shot? Contreras has been iffy, Buehlre bad, Garcia worse, Garland has been ok as of late and vazquez has been a nightmare. We need to have atleast 3 starters really going well to have a shot in the playoffs. Freddy has lost it. His velo is down, his movement isnt there, he is missing locations, im 10 times more worried about him then I am vazquez. Vaz needs to avoid the big inning, freddy gives up big inning potential every inning

Palehose13
07-08-2006, 04:44 PM
The thing that scares me most, if the playoffs were around the corner, would we have a shot? Contreras has been iffy, Buehlre bad, Garcia worse, Garland has been ok as of late and vazquez has been a nightmare. We need to have atleast 3 starters really going well to have a shot in the playoffs. Freddy has lost it. His velo is down, his movement isnt there, he is missing locations, im 10 times more worried about him then I am vazquez. Vaz needs to avoid the big inning, freddy gives up big inning potential every inning
The playoffs aren't around the corner, so why worry about it? Last year in Spetember there were people who were about to jump off of tall buildings. Now is hardly the time to panic. I trust that Coop will have the pitching staff ready to go come October.

batmanZoSo
07-08-2006, 04:46 PM
The thing that scares me most, if the playoffs were around the corner, would we have a shot? Contreras has been iffy, Buehlre bad, Garcia worse, Garland has been ok as of late and vazquez has been a nightmare. We need to have atleast 3 starters really going well to have a shot in the playoffs. Freddy has lost it. His velo is down, his movement isnt there, he is missing locations, im 10 times more worried about him then I am vazquez. Vaz needs to avoid the big inning, freddy gives up big inning potential every inning

It's a good thing they're not around the corner, eh?

Big deal, we lost two games in a row to a good team. We're 22-9 since since playing in Texas and we didn't do that with stellar pitching.

DSpivack
07-08-2006, 04:46 PM
Our starters are not playing up to par. That said, I don't think we are doomed as some think. Why? Because Detroit is the only team with a better staff, and I think we take them in a 7-game series. Yeah, we're not playing the way we should be, but besides Detroit, there isn't anyone playing better out there.

Our offense isn't exactly scuttling even with Brian in the lineup, and defensively we need him out there.

Yes, our starting pitching needs to get better. I think they will.

Patrick134
07-08-2006, 04:47 PM
The thing that scares me most, if the playoffs were around the corner, would we have a shot? Contreras has been iffy, Buehlre bad, Garcia worse, Garland has been ok as of late and vazquez has been a nightmare. We need to have atleast 3 starters really going well to have a shot in the playoffs. Freddy has lost it. His velo is down, his movement isnt there, he is missing locations, im 10 times more worried about him then I am vazquez. Vaz needs to avoid the big inning, freddy gives up big inning potential every inning

Variations on posts such as this were spreading like wildfire late last season when the Tribe was hot. Things can change quickly. Every little mistake seems bigger because of how hot the Tigers have been. Look at everything you wrote and then look at the Sox's record. Garland struggled mightily the 2nd half last year , then had a good postseason. My point isn't that we can count on a turnaround, just that you never know .

DickAllen72
07-08-2006, 04:47 PM
The thing that scares me most, if the playoffs were around the corner, would we have a shot?

Of course. We're the best team in baseball.

Seriously, the Sox need for their pitchers to regain their form after the AS break. And they need a centerfielder who can play and produce every day. If they don't think Brian can do it yet, they need to get someone else in here for the rest of this season.

Domeshot17
07-08-2006, 04:50 PM
Im not panicing, but i am frusterated. Last year the pitching was good and the O was bad. This year its been vice versa, but we are on the wrong side of the standings. We are playing effortlessly, and the starters need to get it going. It seems like we need to score 7 runs a game to win. And thats sayin the pen holds it together.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2006, 04:59 PM
Patrick:

Unfortunately the games aren't 'meaningless' The Sox are in a divisional and wild card race. They count.

Lip

goon
07-08-2006, 05:03 PM
buehrle, garcia, garland, contreras, vazquez... sounds pretty good to me. let's hope the all-star break can bring these guys together and maybe kenny picks up someone worth a **** for the bullpen.

let's not make too big a deal about this series just because it's boston.

SouthSide_HitMen
07-08-2006, 05:09 PM
This was the second straight difficult game to watch. I don't know if the starters are tired or what the issue is. I hope they will regroup after the All Star Game and do what we know they are capable of.

Contreras is the guy we want on the mound to take the game tomorrow and I think the rest of the team will need to rise up to the challenge.

We better have Anderson in there tomorrow - Mackowiak is not a center fielder period.

I still don't understand the Garland move. Have him pitch on the side if he needs the work. A starter has a different routine and the move didn't make sense (at least to me).

Another bases loaded opportunity squandered. :whiner:

Tomorrow is not a "must win" game but I think it is important the White Sox end the first half on a positive note.

Blueprint1
07-08-2006, 05:10 PM
I am going tomorrow. I am going to wear a different hat and shirt. Something has to give. They can't lose every time I go.

chisoxmike
07-08-2006, 05:11 PM
I am going tomorrow. I am going to wear a different hat and shirt. Something has to give. They can't lose every time I go.

stay home

SOXBOY
07-08-2006, 05:16 PM
This team will be fine we have great starting pitching and who's better NY,Bos,or Det.NY staff as a whole is ok,Bos staff is good,and Det number wise is great but not playoff tested.The Sox will make the playoffs and no team 1-5 can beat your pitching.Everyone starts to panic if every starter doesn't throw a perfect game come on everyone just enjoy the season.The Sox have a chance to repeat and who would of thought that we could see it in our life time.

SOXSINCE'70
07-08-2006, 05:24 PM
I can only hope the Contreras/Schilling matchup lives up to its hype.
The last thing I want to see is the "Right" Sox 4 GB the Kitties
at the ASB.:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

No excuses today.An all around bad game in all depts.:(:
I have to agree with SothSide Hitmen here.Tomorrow is not necessarily
a "must win" game,but it's important to put a "W" on the board
going into the All Star break.

Blueprint1
07-08-2006, 05:26 PM
I can only hope the Contreras/Schilling matchup lives up to its hype.
The last thing I want to see is the "Right" Sox 4 GB the Kitties
at the ASB.:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

No excuses today.An all around bad game in all depts.:(:

Well, we are not 3 games back yet.

soxwon
07-08-2006, 05:33 PM
The thing that scares me most, if the playoffs were around the corner, would we have a shot? Contreras has been iffy, Buehlre bad, Garcia worse, Garland has been ok as of late and vazquez has been a nightmare. We need to have atleast 3 starters really going well to have a shot in the playoffs. Freddy has lost it. His velo is down, his movement isnt there, he is missing locations, im 10 times more worried about him then I am vazquez. Vaz needs to avoid the big inning, freddy gives up big inning potential every inning

the nightmare has 9 wins.
as many as buehrle.
vaz is fine

soxwon
07-08-2006, 05:34 PM
Man, and Seattle has already conceded this weekends games to the Tigger's.....boy this smartz..............:angry:

At least this game is OVER.........:supernana:


The wsox have started their allstarr break too.
sad day.

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 05:36 PM
Didn't you just FEEL that the White Sox were going to falter in that bases loaded situation after what happened in Boston last year?

Obviously, KW needs to go out and get another arm for the bullpen. Everyone in the world is sympathizing with Cliff Politte, but that just isn't going to get it done, to HOPE that he or Hermanson can get it together.

Ozzie wouldn't have even thought about going to Garland if our middle relief wasn't in shambles and our starters would pitch the 7 innings they're expected to, keeping their pitch counts down. Who do you go with instead of Garland...McCarthy, who has given up four homers in a week and looks like a deer in the headlights? If anything, Brandon might need to go to the minors and return to being a starter after this week.

These two teams are almost mirror images of each other right now. And every break, every 2 out hit, everything has been going Boston's way.

The way things are going, they PROBABLY will stop Contreras' streak tomorrow, because you know Francona and Schilling want to shut up Guillen. Even though it's not the Game of the Week, it's the biggest game of the weekend all all eyes will be on both starters.

It doesn't matter if we have the best offense in the history of baseball if we keep getting starting and relief pitching like we have seen the last couple of weeks....while we were 5th in the AL coming into today, it has been UGLY. Last year, we were Detroit of 2006. This year, we are White Sox 2000-2004, with the slight difference that we have better 4th and 5th starters and more depth.

I don't know if there's anyone I trust on this team right now in terms of the staff....Contreras, Cotts and Jenks, that's about it. And they've looked shaky even.

Buehrle, Garcia and Vazquez have to figure out what the heck they're doing wrong...and Garland has to pitch like he has been as a starter (before his relief appearance today).

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 05:39 PM
I wonder if there have ever been three starters at the All-Star break with 9 or more wins and corresponding ERA's of over 4?

I would be shocked if that had ever happened...

KW saved the first half of the season with the Thome deal, but he's going to have to get creative...decide which pitcher he wants to launch (Garcia or McCarthy) and put together a deal for a CF and reliever.

And no more Mackowiak in CF...which doesn't excuse Garcia's tantrum and meltdown.

SOXSINCE'70
07-08-2006, 05:40 PM
Well, we are not 3 games back yet.

Maybe,just maybe,and that's a slim maybe,the Mariners will show up,
play a good game and beat the DAMN Kitties tonight.:praying:

And then maybe the sun will rise in the West and set in the East.

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 05:43 PM
If our pitching staff were taking care of business, we wouldn't have to rely upon the Mariners.

Seattle still isn't a sure sweep playing at Safeco, I think they will win at least one of the next two.

In fact, with the stars lined the way they are against the White Sox, I would say beating Schilling tomorrow might be more difficult than the Mariners taking one of two from the Tigers.

itsnotrequired
07-08-2006, 05:44 PM
One of the tougher losses this year.

Sig update time...

SouthSide_HitMen
07-08-2006, 05:46 PM
I wonder if there have ever been three starters at the All-Star break with 9 or more wins and corresponding ERA's of over 4?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Overall&sort=837

The average ERA in MLB is in the mid fours. Starters on average have higher ERAs then relievers. Baseball has been high scoring since the steroids era, small ballparks and small strike zone. I expect the high ERAs to remain a constant unless the revert back to a normal strikezone or test for HGH.

Wins are dependent on your offense and fielding and are not really a great way to measure performance.

soxwon
07-08-2006, 05:57 PM
If our pitching staff were taking care of business, we wouldn't have to rely upon the Mariners.

Seattle still isn't a sure sweep playing at Safeco, I think they will win at least one of the next two.

In fact, with the stars lined the way they are against the White Sox, I would say beating Schilling tomorrow might be more difficult than the Mariners taking one of two from the Tigers.

tommorow night?
please Lord they didnt change it to another night game!!!

Lip Man 1
07-08-2006, 05:59 PM
SoxSince70:

I guess the importance of tomorrow depends on what happens tonight in Seattle and Tampa Bay.

I agree you don't want to be 4 behind Detroit and you don't want the Yankees to close to within 4 of the wild card spot...not with the Sox having to go to that friggin' zoo right after the break.

The Sox schedule to open the second half is just brutal...at New York, at Detroit then home to Texas and Minnesota. Who the hell hates the Sox in the major league headquarters?

Lip

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 06:09 PM
It seems like it should be a night game, but the normal 105 start. We've had stretches that were worse in 2000, 2003 and 2005 and came out the other side even stronger for having tested ourselves against the best...and every team in MLB wants to knock off the defending WS Champions, the Red Sox didn't get things together last year until the 2nd half and were close to 10 games over .500 for most of the season.

As far as the schedule goes, the White Sox are 22-8 (after the two losses) against teams with winning records.

The Tigers are 19-17, but 38-11 against teams with losing records.

Just look at the White Sox versus KC and Cleveland for one of the biggest differences this season, vis a vis Detroit.

The White Sox proved down the stretch when they slumped they could lose to almost anyone...(remember KC?)...but, if they survive this stretch and are no more than 5 games back, watch out.

They still have the WC to fall back on, worst-case scenario. Actually, playing the Yankees before they get a Carlos Lee or Andruw Jones might be the best thing. You just have to play the teams on your schedule in the order they're scheduled and control your own results, the oldest cliche in the book.

Now if you told me, we are going to face Santana AND Liriano in that series and not miss either and that Detroit would somehow miss both in their first match-up after the break, well, then that would suck. But do you think fans of Detroit and Minnesota are looking at the Sox and hoping to avoid one of our starters? Maybe, just MAYBE, Contreras....but that's telling, in and of itself, isn't it?

CaptainBallz
07-08-2006, 06:18 PM
Last year we were swept right before the all star break by the As and it worked out for us so meh. I already got it out of my system.:smile:

But remember, that sweep sort of ushered in one of the worst chokes in history. If this series has done anything so far, it has exposed the mediocrity of parts of the pitching staff that most like to excuse because of huge run production and a great looking 'W' column. That ship really needs to be tightened up for this second half run. The amounts of runs being let up by what's supposed to be one of the greatest 1-5 in baseball is abysmal.

As far as I'm concerned, the clutch hitting has definitely been there quite a bit this year, so I won't harp too much on its nonexistence in this particular series. I'll be content with getting the game tomorrow. So fellas..do that.

Hitmen77
07-08-2006, 06:27 PM
Here's what Ozzie said the other day about Brian Anderson:

"I don't remember losing one game because of Brian. Brian could be one of the best center fielders in baseball right now. He swings the bat a lot better and hits the ball hard with no luck. I like his approach at the plate right now."

So, why are the Sox still platooning him with Mackowiak? I don't get it. I think the Sox have a better chance to win with BA's defense than with Mackowiak's offense - especially considering Anderson has done well at the plate over the last few weeks.

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2006, 06:48 PM
So, why are the Sox still platooning him with Mackowiak? I don't get it. I think the Sox have a better chance to win with BA's defense than with Mackowiak's offense - especially considering Anderson has done well at the plate over the last few weeks.

Great point. I wonder the same thing. Not having Anderson in the outfield prolonged the inning where Garcia had his mental meltdown. There also was another single hit to CF that Anderson would have caught for an out - not simply because he has more range and better instincts (which of course he does), but simply because he plays closer to the infield! That single prolonged another inning in which several Boston runs scored. Anderson's defense prevents runs. Mackowiak's two hits and his stolen base didn't contribute any runs today (not entirely his fault, of course). This demonstrates that defense simply must be the first priority in center field. Every time I watch a game (and I get to see less than one per week) and Mackowiak starts in CF, he fails to make a catch that Anderson would have made. I'm sure I'm not the only one who notices this; and I know for a fact that this occurs in games that I do not get to watch.

I don't blame Mackowiak; he's just not a natural CF who plays the position assigned to him on a given day to the best of his ability. I believe Ozzie remains a good manager. But he's being stubbornly stupid by continuing to insist on platooning Anderson and Mackowiak. I feel terrible for saying and even thinking this, but it's because of Ozzie's stubborn stupidity in this regard that I find myself wishing that Mackowiak would get traded or demoted so that Ozzie wouldn't be able to play him in CF. Something tells me that even if Anderson started hitting at a .350 clip, Mackowiak still would get at least three starts per week in CF.
:mad:

PS: In his last seven games, Anderson is batting .294 with a .333 OBP. Pretty good for a #9 hitter who plays the best defensive CF in the majors! So let's platoon him!
:mad:

Dan H
07-08-2006, 06:51 PM
I'm not worried about leaving the bases loaded. They are scoring plenty of runs; it's the fact that they are giving up a ton of runs, on a regular basis, that bothers me

I want to echo this. Right now only Contreras is doing it. The strength of the Sox was supposed to be their pitching. You can't slug your way to a Series. Garcia should stop throwing his glove and start making some pitches. Cubs pitchers have been looking better lately.

rowand33
07-08-2006, 06:54 PM
the nightmare has 9 wins.
as many as buehrle.
vaz is fine

Vaz is fine? Seriously?

Nothing fine about a 5.15 ERA, not to mention a 7.50 in June and a 6.35 in July. Has Vazquez pitched well against a good team yet this season? Looking at his game log, the only good team he's beat is the Cards and a) they're an NL team b) We scored 20 runs against them. Not exactly a pressure situation. Furthermore, the guy hasn't had a good year since 2003. Vazquez has great stuff. I hope he'll be fine. But his crappy season, career .500 win percentage, and recent history don't exactly instill confidence in me. He's got to show us something soon.

We do not have three starters for the playoffs right now. We have one.

If the playoffs start today, I don't trust anybody. It';s been half a season. Apologists are way worse than dark clouds. Let's be realistic and admit that looking at the way the team has played right now, we are not a world series team. We are on paper, but not in reality. In reality, I think we're a lot like the 2005 Red Sox. We're not going to win a World Series by mashing. If we run into a team with good pitching in the playoffs and our pitching is still mediocre, we run the risk of getting shut down like the 05 Sox did to the 05 BoSox.

Last season we couldn't stop talking about how pitching and defense win championships. We do not have the pitching right now. And it bums me out that most people on this board have decided to turn a blind eye and pretend we're fine.

It's not like I even want Kenny to make a trade or anything. I don't feel we can upgrade over anybody in that starting rotation, and with our bullpen situation I don't feel that starting B.Mac would be a good idea.

However, these guys needs to just start pitching the way we all know they can pitch. Hopefully 2006 Vazquez is 2005 Contreras. Hopefully Buehrle will return to being Buehrle. We're gonna make the playoffs. We're gonna keep winning games. But we're not going to win a world series unless at least 3 of the starters find it.

I'm happy we've slugged our way to a 56-31 record (Imagine how things would be without the Thome trade if our pitching was struggling like this). And it's hard to complain when you've just won a world series, but you don't win a championship without pitching. I hope the staff figures things out after the allstar break. Otherwise I fear this team will not live up to its high expectations.

bluestar
07-08-2006, 07:12 PM
I wonder if the Sox pitchers are putting too much pressure on themselves this year to try to be perfect. Last year was magical, and they had such a comfortable lead most of the season, they were able to relax and pitch without worrying constantly about giving up a big hit. This year, Detroit keeps maintaining a lead and every win and loss is so critical. Maybe the pressure of trying to repeat last year has not set well with them?

I just know we didn't see the episodes of glove throwing, et. al. last year like we saw in today's game, and we didn't see these seemingly contagious big inning meltdowns last year like we have seen all too many times this year.

Whatever the reason, as others have said, the foundation of this team is the starting pitching, and it is certainly not performing as expected.

SouthSide_HitMen
07-08-2006, 07:23 PM
If the playoffs start today, I don't trust anybody. It';s been half a season. Apologists are way worse than dark clouds. Let's be realistic and admit that looking at the way the team has played right now, we are not a world series team. We are on paper, but not in reality. In reality, I think we're a lot like the 2005 Red Sox. We're not going to win a World Series by mashing. If we run into a team with good pitching in the playoffs and our pitching is still mediocre, we run the risk of getting shut down like the 05 Sox did to the 05 BoSox.

Last season we couldn't stop talking about how pitching and defense win championships. We do not have the pitching right now. And it bums me out that most people on this board have decided to turn a blind eye and pretend we're fine.

People aren't apologizing - they are posting with the perspective of baseball being a long season. You can't get yourself worked up after a few bad games or go crazy after a sweep.

Ozzie knows this. Kenny knows this.

Fans would like to see better outings then we have seen out of Buehrle and Vazquez their last few outings. No team is perfect and no team will dominate an entire season. Last year's team had a rough patch when Joe Crede was knocked out.

Crede and Iguchi have been banged up. Pods needs some work in the OF and I agree with Frater Perdurabo when he says Anderson needs to start more. He should be starting 5 or 6 games a week. Yet we are still the team to beat IMO.

The bullpen has come around from a rough start (except Politte who really needs to be shutdown at this point) and I'll take our starters over any other staff in baseball 1 through 5. Fans of the Tigers wish they had our offense and by the end of the season will wish they had experienced pitchers like we have. With the exception of Rogers, the rest of the staff will be reaching career highs in IP by the end of August. If they are still close by Labor Day I expect them to die down the stretch like a horse in a six furlong race with a 43 split at the half mile pole.

I don't have blind faith or think it will not be hard to win the division and in October. I do think Kenny and Ozzie put us in a great position to be successful and I think talent wins out over 6 months. As long as we stay relatively healthy (always a concern over the course of a season) I think we win the division and are a tough draw in the playoffs / World Series.

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 07:24 PM
If anything, there SHOULD be LESS pressure this season.

Yes, other teams are playing their best games in an effort to beat the Sox, it's the same thing every defending champ faces and one of the main reasons a team hasn't repeated since 2000.

On the other hand, IMAGINE the pressure on this entire team had Grady Sizemore caught that ball in KC...had the ball that Konerko snagged to clinch the pennant in Detroit flown down the RF line for a double...had the Indians not simply collapsed the final week.

Imagine going into this season, along with the Cubs, but with the added pressure of having blown a 15 game lead and every Mariotti questioning you about the choke from last season?

I think Garcia and Politte definitely have some physical issues. Buehrle is always on the precipice of disaster because he doesn't have great stuff but relies on control. With Vazquez, Garland and Buehrle, they need to get their heads straightened out over the break, and come back refreshed for the 2nd half. If anything, Buehrle will be under more stress, with every reporter badgering him about his manager, his 4 plus ERA and the decision to take him instead of Schilling.

Well, that's what defending a WS is all about.

Going into the spring, everyone was worried about Jenks, Thome's health, the bullpen and Brian Anderson. Two of those four concerns have been answered....I guess we didn't ever think we would have to worry about the starting pitching showing up, and, statistically, they've been above average, but that seems like such a disappointment after what they did last year.

Remember, the 2000 and 2005 White Sox teams didn't do much more than play .500 baseball over those second halves...and, with the defense, starting and relief pitching, fundamentals (Pods is getting worse and worse, how many cutoff men can you miss realistically?) going south a little, we SHOULD turn things around. At least, that's the hope.

batmanZoSo
07-08-2006, 07:44 PM
If anything, there SHOULD be LESS pressure this season.

Yes, other teams are playing their best games in an effort to beat the Sox, it's the same thing every defending champ faces and one of the main reasons a team hasn't repeated since 2000.

On the other hand, IMAGINE the pressure on this entire team had Grady Sizemore caught that ball in KC...had the ball that Konerko snagged to clinch the pennant in Detroit flown down the RF line for a double...had the Indians not simply collapsed the final week.

Imagine going into this season, along with the Cubs, but with the added pressure of having blown a 15 game lead and every Mariotti questioning you about the choke from last season?

I think Garcia and Politte definitely have some physical issues. Buehrle is always on the precipice of disaster because he doesn't have great stuff but relies on control. With Vazquez, Garland and Buehrle, they need to get their heads straightened out over the break, and come back refreshed for the 2nd half. If anything, Buehrle will be under more stress, with every reporter badgering him about his manager, his 4 plus ERA and the decision to take him instead of Schilling.

Well, that's what defending a WS is all about.

Going into the spring, everyone was worried about Jenks, Thome's health, the bullpen and Brian Anderson. Two of those four concerns have been answered....I guess we didn't ever think we would have to worry about the starting pitching showing up, and, statistically, they've been above average, but that seems like such a disappointment after what they did last year.

Remember, the 2000 and 2005 White Sox teams didn't do much more than play .500 baseball over those second halves...and, with the defense, starting and relief pitching, fundamentals (Pods is getting worse and worse, how many cutoff men can you miss realistically?) going south a little, we SHOULD turn things around. At least, that's the hope.

The 2000 Yankees got bitch slapped by the 2000 Sox during the regular season and stumbled to a joke of a division title winning only 87 games. But when crunch time came, they were unbeatable and went on to win it all easily. The Sox of last year were the exact same way--just turned it on like a light switch and no one could touch them. I think when a team wins a World Series it changes a team's perspective on things. These regular season games probably become a little harder to get juiced up for and at the same time the opposition turns it up a notch on account that they're facing the champs. This is a great team and they know how to win. Only a freak Tigers team has managed to win more games and most Sox fans would contend that the team has underacheived. I don't care how we've been playing lately or at any point during the regular season--if you start the playoffs the next day, I like our chances.

MarySwiss
07-08-2006, 07:48 PM
The 2000 Yankees got bitch slapped by the 2000 Sox during the regular season and stumbled to a joke of a division title winning only 87 games. But when crunch time came, they were unbeatable and went on to win it all easily. The Sox of last year were the exact same way--just turned it on like a light switch and no one could touch them. I think when a team wins a World Series it changes a team's perspective on things. These regular season games probably become a little harder to get juiced up for and at the same time the opposition turns it up a notch on account that they're facing the champs. This is a great team and they know how to win. Only a freak Tigers team has managed to win more games and most Sox fans would contend that the team has underacheived. I don't care how we've been playing lately or at any point during the regular season--if you start the playoffs the next day, I like our chances.

God help me! I agree with every word you said!

Playah
07-08-2006, 07:51 PM
This thread is going in the wrong direction.

Garcia pitched JUST FINE until idiot Mackowiak can't catch a towering popup to short center. Garcia gets SUPER PISSED and loses it, allowing 3 runs in the inning and then Ozzie pulls him after the following inning because he is still pissed.

Well... wouldnt YOU be pissed? I know I would be!!

Garcia had everything working, pitching a shut out, and his defense just ****ed him. I don't blame him for losing his cool. I blame Ozzie for this stupid platoon he has going. Play Anderson EVERY DAY damn it!

PH13 edit: Just type the word and let the language filter do its job. I fixed it for you, before I gave you a little vacation.

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 07:56 PM
But the point is that if Garcia is this supposed ace, shutdown pitcher (like he was in the World Series), then he gets out of that inning with only one run scoring and limits the damage...maybe even gets a double play ball.

We might have seen the last of the BA Mackowiak platoon due to that play...or we might be seeing more of Rob in LF due to Pods' recent knack for bonehead plays and repeated brain cramps, such as thinking he had a prayer to throw out Cora with two outs and the runners off on contact, leaving yet another runner at 2B. How many times has that happened to our outfield during the last couple of weeks?

SoxSpeed22
07-08-2006, 07:56 PM
A few things:
1. Can we never have Mackowiak in center again?
2. The starting pitching is getting smacked around way too much.
3. Freddy, can you not be like Kelvim Escobar?
4. How many 2-out hits can Boston get?
That is all, for now.

Baby Fisk
07-08-2006, 07:57 PM
Garcia pitched JUST FINE until idiot Mackowiak can't catch a towering popup to short center. Garcia gets SUPER PISSED and loses it, allowing 3 runs in the inning and then Ozzie pulls him after the following inning because he is still pissed.

Well... wouldnt YOU be pissed? I know I would be!!

Garcia had everything working, pitching a shut out, and his defense just f-cked him. I don't blame him for losing his cool. I blame Ozzie for this stupid platoon he has going. Play Anderson EVERY DAY damn it!
Agreed. It looked like little league out there. But Garcia should have pulled himself together and mowed down the rest of the order. Freddy always seems to hunker down and do well when he's a little pissed off, but today he let it distract him.

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 08:03 PM
Actually, Garcia's outburst reminded me a little more of Carlos Zambrano for some reason.

QCIASOXFAN
07-08-2006, 08:05 PM
Actually, Garcia's outburst reminded me a little more of Carlos Zambrano for some reason.:o:

Baby Fisk
07-08-2006, 08:06 PM
The 2000 Yankees got bitch slapped by the 2000 Sox during the regular season and stumbled to a joke of a division title winning only 87 games. But when crunch time came, they were unbeatable and went on to win it all easily. The Sox of last year were the exact same way--just turned it on like a light switch and no one could touch them. I think when a team wins a World Series it changes a team's perspective on things. These regular season games probably become a little harder to get juiced up for and at the same time the opposition turns it up a notch on account that they're facing the champs. This is a great team and they know how to win. Only a freak Tigers team has managed to win more games and most Sox fans would contend that the team has underacheived. I don't care how we've been playing lately or at any point during the regular season--if you start the playoffs the next day, I like our chances.
Well said. :thumbsup:

DickAllen72
07-08-2006, 08:14 PM
A few things:
1. Can we never have Mackowiak in center again?


What would we have to give the Angels for Chone Figgins and Scott Shields?

Can we rip off the Cubs for Juan Pierre and Bobby Howry?

DickAllen72
07-08-2006, 08:15 PM
Actually, Garcia's outburst reminded me a little more of Carlos Zambrano for some reason.

I wish he could pitch like Zambrano.

caulfield12
07-08-2006, 08:17 PM
Three or four years ago, yes. Today, not a prayer.

I think he was overused by the Mariners, his pitch counts and innings were huge in the early 90's, and he's also suffering from WBC issues as well...the guy was getting consistently beaten by 10 MPH on the gun readings by Eric Bedard. Something is up.

southsideirish71
07-08-2006, 08:18 PM
Where did Garcias velocity go. Last year he would pitch good against good teams, then have problems with bad teams. Now this year he has a hard time breaking the 90 mark. I would like to see the results of an MRI on Freddy's shoulder and elbow. You dont just become a finese pitcher overnight, and Freddy doesnt have the control to do it right now.

gobears1987
07-08-2006, 08:28 PM
We need a real CF. Neither Anderson nor Mackowiak is the answer.

Jurr
07-08-2006, 09:02 PM
This reminds me a lot of the way the Sox were playing right before last year's all star break. It seems like the pitchers need a breather, and they're about to get one. Last year, we were playing like crap, up comes the break, and then we rolled against the Indians.

This team is just playing out the string before the break, and that's not good enough against Boston, who came in wanting to send a message.

PAPChiSox729
07-08-2006, 09:29 PM
We need a real CF. Neither Anderson nor Mackowiak is the answer.

Why isn't Anderson the answer?

DSpivack
07-08-2006, 09:41 PM
CALM DOWN, FRANCIS. The Sox are 25 games over .500, 2.5 games back of a team that has been pitching lights out but is very green and never been in a situation like this before, competing down the stretch, with young pitchers who have never experienced a playoff race and never thrown so many innings. That does not mean the Tigers are going to collapse, it means that we have been there before and they have not. Yes, our pitching has not been great lately, but a lot of people in this thread act as if there is some super perfect team out there with shutdown pitching and a perfect lineup with no holes. There is no such team. The team with the best record in baseball has Todd Jones as a closer. Their ace is Kenny Rogers, their best pitcher is a rookie.

Boston has Manny and Big Papi, but outside of that their offense seems relatively suspect. Schillling has been their best pitcher, a 39-year old with a history of injury problems. They rely on Beckett, whose ERA is close to 5 and has never pitched 180, let alone 200 innings. They also rely on a knuckleballer who will turn 40 in a month who has been up-and-down the last couple years. They rely on a rookie who hasn't been around the league yet in Jon Lester, and finally on...Matt Clement.

So, tell me, where is the team that is World Series contenders that are suddenly ahead of the White Sox? There isn't one. Every team has flaws, and yet I still think the White Sox are the most complete team out there. Yes, they have yet to play the level they should be at, but even given this substandard level of play, they are 25 games over .500. They'll be fine.

Chips
07-08-2006, 09:46 PM
We need a real CF. Neither Anderson nor Mackowiak is the answer.

Anderson is ****ing excellent in center. So what if he is hitting under .200, he's the number NINE hitter. I'll take the defense.

Grzegorz
07-08-2006, 09:53 PM
Can we rip off the Cubs for Juan Pierre and Bobby Howry?
My Lord you're scaring me!!! Keep Pierre away from the southside.

Grzegorz
07-08-2006, 10:00 PM
Anderson is fine in center; he'll make the plays that keep a team in games.

I am tired of hearing that this team needs a CF or an upgrade at shortstop. This team needs the most important ingredient in the recipe for a consistent winner; pitching, pitching, and more pitching.

I also do not believe that if the playoffs started tomorrow all would be well and that Buehrle, Garcia, and Vasquez would be lights out. These guys need to string together consistent starts, build off them, and peak at playoff time.

You play like you practice; very few talents in the game had the ability, let alone the desire, to turn it on and off. I do not believe we have any of these unique talents on the 2006 edition of the Chicago White Sox.

viagracat
07-08-2006, 10:18 PM
I guess Boston got even for El Duque's inning last October. You certainly like your chances when the bases are juiced and Thome, Konerko and Dye coming up...you knew the game was over when nothing happened.

I know Konerko's fly was shallow and Cintron had no way of knowing there was going to be interference with the catch, but I think Cintron should've tagged up and at least forced a throw. Nixon had to catch the ball running into foul territory, so a throw wouldn't have had much on it and maybe would've been off-target. It wasn't the aggressive baserunning you expect from Cora.

Ah well, get 'em tomorrow. Go into the break on a high note.

oeo
07-08-2006, 10:27 PM
Anderson is ****ing excellent in center. So what if he is hitting under .200, he's the number NINE hitter. I'll take the defense.
I really wish Ozzie would stop this platooning crap. Yesterday, Anderson was taken out of the game when he was one of the only guys that was hitting the ball hard. So, not only does he do that, but he keeps him out of the game today. How do you expect the guy to improve when he doesn't even get all the AB's? He's making progress, let him hit in the late innings. Stick with him, keep Mackowiak on the bench...I want to see Anderson out there everyday, and I'd be willing to make a bet that his average is .230+ by the end of the year.

digdagdug23
07-08-2006, 10:40 PM
A thousand pardons if someone else said this, I scanned through quickly.

It is really sad if I have to be the voice of reason, BUT, didn't the Red Sox kind of sorta win the series with us last year, and then we swept them later?

I can't recall that clearly that long ago and am not ambitious enough to go look it up, but I coulda swore they did either a) take the sweep or b) at least win the series.

Ahem, and didn't we sweep them in the AL series, and in Fenway to boot?

I really hate it when you guys make me feel like a parent, now go to your room, mister, you are grounded, and NO X-BOX EITHER!!!!

GoSox2K3
07-08-2006, 10:50 PM
We need a real CF. Neither Anderson nor Mackowiak is the answer.

Anderson IS our real CF and has been hitting much better lately. Get over it already.

Viva Medias B's
07-08-2006, 11:56 PM
I'm not happy about how we played the past two days, but there is no cause for alarm.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2006, 12:08 AM
Well the end to a 'perfect' day. Tigers win 2-1.

Sox three back of them...five up on the Yanks for the wild card. They've won four straight.

These guys need to get their heads out of their asses and win a game Sunday. Period. They haven't played very well since last Sunday.

Lip

DickAllen72
07-09-2006, 12:39 AM
My Lord you're scaring me!!! Keep Pierre away from the southside.

Pierre would look good sitting on the Sox bench. If we need to spell Brian in CF at times, he'd be a better option out there than Mack. (Nothing against Mack, he's a valuable utility guy, but he's best at RF, LF, 3B, not in CF).

cheeses_h_rice
07-09-2006, 12:48 AM
Well the end to a 'perfect' day. Tigers win 2-1.

Sox three back of them...five up on the Yanks for the wild card. They've won four straight.

These guys need to get their heads out of their asses and win a game Sunday. Period. They haven't played very well since last Sunday.

Lip

Lip, you're going to give yourself an aneurysm at this rate. Sheesh. Calm down. This is their second "poor" stretch of the year, and they've only lost 2 in a row.

Anyway, the Sox will win on Sunday, and I don't think it will even be that close. I'm predicting 7-2 Good Guys.

Vince
07-09-2006, 01:50 AM
We lost two games against a good team. *Shrug*

Random thoughts:

Anderson should be our everyday CF. His bat is coming around and he is far superior defensively. Anderson catches that pop-up.

That said, Garcia needs to suck it up and not show up his teamates on the field. That's twice this season he has done that.

I think this really comes down to our starting pitching underperforming. I expected some slip from 2005 - those were silly crazy numbers they put up and I don't think we could expect a repeat performance. But I didn't expect it to be this bad.

Our bullpen is built around starters going 7 innings. When the starter only goes 5-6 innings, we stretch out our middle relief quite a bit.

Obviously, the plan going into the season was that McCarthy, Pollitte and maybe Hermanson would combine to eat up those innings. Well, we've seen the results - Hermanson probably won't pitch again, Pollitte looks like he shouldn't pitch again, and McCarthy has been really inconsistent.

An aside on McCarthy - why do people think if he isn't having success as a reliever he'd be better than say Garcia or Vazquez in the rotation? McCarthy seems to me to be a really streaky pitcher - when he's on, he's lights out (last September, some short stretches of this season), when he's off (this last week), he's terrible. I think it coincides with how comfortable he feels with his offspeed stuff - if there's one thing I'll give, I think he needs longer to warm up than a normal reliever. It seems like he only finds his breaking/offspeed stuff when he's in the second inning of a multi-inning relief appearance. But in general, if he can't consistently handle the situations he's getting in the bullpen, I don't see any reason why we should think he's going to repeat his second-half pitching performance of 2005.

Anyway, so we have a hole in middle relief. Either we get an effective reliever (price will probably be very high given what's out there) or our starters suck it up and start going 7-8 innings consistently again. If either of those things happen, we'll be alright.

Domeshot17
07-09-2006, 02:00 AM
Anderson D has potential, but his Arm isnt as strong as I thought. He seems to try and do too much and doesnt hit the cut off man when he should. I know Hawk is getting pissed with all the bonehead throws anderson makes. That said, he does get good jumps on balls and has a nice glove. But, for people who think his bat is really coming around, he has yet to hit over 200 in any month. He had a decent stretch, but i would like to see it against a team with real pitching, because he hit .290 basically against the cubs and O's.

This series was like the measuring stick. This told us that all the wins against the cubs, royals, etc. are wins, but this is where we stand. So far, with out 3 best sp against bostons 3 best sp, we have learned this.

Closers are both awesome
Middle relief, boston has it, we have a little of it
Starters, Lester is for real, good arm, Freddy and Buehlre need to wake the **** up because if we are gonna let Vaz keep sucking, we need one of them to be a stopper behind him.
Offenses can both mash,
Their Defense is much improved, our D could be good
Ozzie needs to stop overmanaging.

I love ozzie, and he inspires players, and he gets the message across
but When Ozzie said "what does baseball want me to do, make the lineup and watch the game?". I wish that was all he did, actually less. Let Greg Walker make the lineup, so we stop playing guys in positions where they fail.

And Freddy needs to grow up. Yah, Mack messed up in center. PITCH AROUND IT. THIS IS A DAMN TEAM, AND THEY BAIL YOUR ASS OUT WHEN YOU GIVE UP 6 RUNS A GAME AND SCORE 7 SO YOU GET A NO DECISION. I hate when players show up their team mates, and Freddy was walking that line. All I know is baseball is a team sport, you pick each other up, and we arent looking like a team. We are looking like a bunch of guys that are good at looking mad when they f up.

This series has reminded me of mighty ducks 2, when TEAM USA is cruising, thinking they are all that, then Iceland kicks their ass and brings them back to earth. We are TEAM USA, Boston is Iceland. We keep strutting around like we are awesome, maybe this series is what we needed. Get embarrased on national tv for a weekend, let everyone say we are over rated, and get back to the hard working, classy baseball we are used too. The only thing I know for sure is Kdubs knows this team is lacking in pitching and on defense, and hes looking for help. Hes ruthless, so while his heart pleads for politte, he let the big hurt go, so you do think kenny would think twice of cuttin politte loose if he could pick up a GOOD set up man?

Playah
07-09-2006, 02:12 AM
Ozzie needs to stop overmanaging.


Absolutely.

I believe that his success has gone to his head. It's to be expected, I guess. Doing TV commercials and appearances, everyone is putting him on a pedestal so now he thinks he can't do any wrong. Can't blame him for that, it's a normal response.

He needs to go back to basics, back to what he did last year, which is to set his lineup and let his team play.

That means NO PLATOONS!

Thome25
07-09-2006, 06:24 AM
The bottom line is our bullpen sucks. Last season we had a couple stretches where multiple starters were struggling. EX. Contreras and El Duque in the first half of 2005 and Garland and El Duque in the 2nd half of 2005.

I can't recall but, Buehrle and Garcia probably went through some rough times last year too because every pitcher does during the course of a long season.

The difference between 2005 and 2006 is that last year we had the bullpen to slam the door shut when a starter was struggling. This year we don't. Yesterdays game is the perfect example. If our bullpen holds them and then doesn't give up anymore runs, we have a great chance of at least tying the game. Who knows what happens from there.

We essentially lost 5 guys from last year's 'pen. Vizcaino, Marte, El Duque (I know he was a starter but he was bigger in the pen last year.) Hermanson, and Politte. (I say Politte because he isn't close to being dominant like he was last year so to me it's the same thing as losing him.) To top it off, McCarthy has been struggling in the bullpen as well.

I know we traded a couple of those relievers for a couple of "key" guys on this year's team but you can't lose that many guys in your bullpen and still expect it to be anywhere near as good. The bullpen has cost us at least 3 games.........and counting.

KW needs to go out and get us either a starting or backup CF and some more bullpen help. Even if it means trading one of our starters and putting McCarthy in the rotation.

kwolf68
07-09-2006, 08:02 AM
The bottom line is our bullpen sucks. Last season we had a couple stretches where multiple starters were struggling. EX. Contreras and El Duque in the first half of 2005 and Garland and El Duque in the 2nd half of 2005.

I can't recall but, Buehrle and Garcia probably went through some rough times last year too because every pitcher does during the course of a long season.

The difference between 2005 and 2006 is that last year we had the bullpen to slam the door shut when a starter was struggling.


No way the way the SPs are pitching now comes anywhere close to last year. We have 80% of our starters having given up more hits than innings pitched, 2 of them have era's over 5, one is almost at 5 and the other is at 4....

This isn't a rough stretch, this is just mediocre pitching. Garcia, Garland, and Buehrle have all looked like average, inconsistent pitchers while Vazquez doesn't look like he even belongs in a top team's starting rotation.

Meanwhile the Twins (one of the teams behind us) have two lefties that throw mid to high 90s to compliment with 2 of the best change-ups I've ever seen. The Tigers bring up kids from the minors (Minor) who dominante...The Yankees I have no idea how they do it, but they do.

We need our starting pitching to do better....it begins and ends with that and hte numbers indicate THEY have been the reason we have struggled. Thank God for the hitters ...Dye, Thome, PK, AJ, and crede have had amazing years...if THEY were hitting more normal (or like last year) we'd be 12 games out of this thing.

Our starters have NOT BEEN GOOD.

itsnotrequired
07-09-2006, 08:12 AM
skottyj242: At the game, there was a young girl in Section 520 with a rather large Ross Gload sign. She couldn't have been more than 8 years old.

The tide is turning...:cool:

Thome25
07-09-2006, 08:16 AM
This isn't a rough stretch, this is just mediocre pitching. Garcia, Garland, and Buehrle have all looked like average, inconsistent pitchers while Vazquez doesn't look like he even belongs in a top team's starting rotation.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Garland has pitched well of late. Vazquez is the best #5 in the majors. He has 9 wins for God's sake. Name a #5 in the majors who is better. You have to at least say he's better in the 5-slot than El Duque was last year.

Buehrle and Garcia are the only ones truly stuggling right now. Does that compare to the struggles of Contreras/El Duque in the first half of 2005? I think it does.

So yeah, the pitcher's struggles this year do compare to last year.

The only difference is, we don't have the bullpen this year to make up for it when our pitchers are having problems.

SOXSINCE'70
07-09-2006, 08:22 AM
SoxSince70:

I guess the importance of tomorrow depends on what happens tonight in Seattle and Tampa Bay.

The Sox schedule to open the second half is just brutal...at New York, at Detroit then home to Texas and Minnesota. Who the hell hates the Sox in the major league headquarters?

Lip

1.Both Seattle and TB lost.Sunday's game is now VERY important.

2.I noticed this as well.The first 4 series after the ASB are a killer.
As far as who hates the Sox,it seems as if most of the media
outside of Chicago do.Is it just me,or are the dumbasses at the "Crap City Cable Company"(ESPN) giving far too much love to the Motown Kitties??Where was this last
year for the White Sox?? Is this "Pud" Selig's "unbalanced schedule"
at work?? I know Hawk Harrelson always says "sit back,relax and
strap it down",but these last few games have made me a little nervous.
And the schedule after the ASB doesn't make me feel much better.

SOXSINCE'70
07-09-2006, 08:30 AM
didn't the Red Sox kind of sorta win the series with us last year, and then we swept them later?

Each team went 3-3.

digdagdug23
07-09-2006, 08:32 AM
Each team went 3-3.

Not what I meant, we swept them in post-season.

skobabe8
07-09-2006, 08:47 AM
Everyone needs to back of the ledge.

Maybe it "hurts" so much because we're playing the media darlings and we want to prove how good we are to people who don't give us any respect, i.e. the national media. WHO CARES? We're above that crap. If you want to call this a bad stretch, be my guest. Fact of the matter is we've lost 2 games in a row to a division leader and have gone 5-5 in our last 10. I guess thats sorta bad.

And anyone who thinks being 3 or even heaven forbid 4 games back at the ASB is some overwhelming task needs to go jump in a lake.

Thome25
07-09-2006, 08:57 AM
Everyone needs to back of the ledge.

Maybe it "hurts" so much because we're playing the media darlings and we want to prove how good we are to people who don't give us any respect, i.e. the national media. WHO CARES? We're above that crap. If you want to call this a bad stretch, be my guest. Fact of the matter is we've lost 2 games in a row to a division leader and have gone 5-5 in our last 10. I guess thats sorta bad.

And anyone who thinks being 3 or even heaven forbid 4 games back at the ASB is some overwhelming task needs to go jump in a lake.

I honestly think that's why these last two games hurt so much and it's causing the fans (including myself) to second-guess this team.

I also think this series was a chance for us to measure ourselves against a club that has a chance to challenge for the world series.

So far it hasn't gone very well.

skobabe8
07-09-2006, 09:15 AM
I honestly think that's why these last two games hurt so much and it's causing the fans (including myself) to second-guess this team.

I also think this series was a chance for us to measure ourselves against a club that has a chance to challenge for the world series.

So far it hasn't gone very well.

Right. Don't let people who haven't seen us play all year until this weekend tell us about our team. We're pretty good. We know we're pretty good. We haven't played that well against a team that unfortunately alot of drillrods in the media follow. Whats gonna happen? They are gonna write and talk more about how overrated we are and how we might have a chance at the wild card. Expect it...just don't let it bait you. After the ASB, winning will cure all.

voodoochile
07-09-2006, 11:19 AM
I had kind of a bad deja vu moment yesterday. I was at work and the bases were loaded and the heart of he order was coming up and the Sox were playing the Red Sox and they didn't score. I got to watch most of the inning as it was a slow point at work.

I guess they owed us that one. :(:

Ah well, the stopper is going today...:cool:

let the sun shine...
Let the sun shine
Let the sun shine
The sun shine in...:)

JohnBasedowYoda
07-09-2006, 11:41 AM
One of the tougher losses this year.

Sig update time...

It's Double Lemon Chill now with SPOON! not "lemon ice"

Jurr
07-09-2006, 12:06 PM
Vaz is fine? Seriously?

Nothing fine about a 5.15 ERA, not to mention a 7.50 in June and a 6.35 in July. Has Vazquez pitched well against a good team yet this season? Looking at his game log, the only good team he's beat is the Cards and a) they're an NL team b) We scored 20 runs against them. Not exactly a pressure situation. Furthermore, the guy hasn't had a good year since 2003. Vazquez has great stuff. I hope he'll be fine. But his crappy season, career .500 win percentage, and recent history don't exactly instill confidence in me. He's got to show us something soon.

We do not have three starters for the playoffs right now. We have one.

If the playoffs start today, I don't trust anybody. It';s been half a season. Apologists are way worse than dark clouds. Let's be realistic and admit that looking at the way the team has played right now, we are not a world series team. We are on paper, but not in reality. In reality, I think we're a lot like the 2005 Red Sox. We're not going to win a World Series by mashing. If we run into a team with good pitching in the playoffs and our pitching is still mediocre, we run the risk of getting shut down like the 05 Sox did to the 05 BoSox.

Last season we couldn't stop talking about how pitching and defense win championships. We do not have the pitching right now. And it bums me out that most people on this board have decided to turn a blind eye and pretend we're fine.

It's not like I even want Kenny to make a trade or anything. I don't feel we can upgrade over anybody in that starting rotation, and with our bullpen situation I don't feel that starting B.Mac would be a good idea.

However, these guys needs to just start pitching the way we all know they can pitch. Hopefully 2006 Vazquez is 2005 Contreras. Hopefully Buehrle will return to being Buehrle. We're gonna make the playoffs. We're gonna keep winning games. But we're not going to win a world series unless at least 3 of the starters find it.

I'm happy we've slugged our way to a 56-31 record (Imagine how things would be without the Thome trade if our pitching was struggling like this). And it's hard to complain when you've just won a world series, but you don't win a championship without pitching. I hope the staff figures things out after the allstar break. Otherwise I fear this team will not live up to its high expectations.
Once again, we see the "I am blinded by the one year that we won the world series, and I can't accept a team that's 25 games over .500. I want my fifth starter to be undefeated" posts. Look to the Sox' recent history (as early as 2003, 2004), and realize that this team is in pretty good shape.

Nobody likes to see the Sox lose, but realize that it's not so easy when teams are actually gunning for you. The Red Sox were humiliated by our boys last year, and want to prove a point. Our guys look like they're playing out the first half, ready for a break. Looks very similar to last year, and we all know how that panned out.

southsideirish71
07-09-2006, 12:44 PM
So at what point is Freddy going to flip the switch and start to throw above 90.

Freddy last year, throwing above 90 with his great curve was nasty.

This years Freddy hitting mid 80s to upper 80s, touching 90 from time to time with his great curve is not the same as the guy who pitched for us last year.

If he is holding back on his fastball, then someone needs to give him a kick in the butt because we need him to give us his A game in every start. If he is hurt then he needs to tell someone so KW can make deals based on what we know as opposed to what we think. Everyone keeps pointing to last years success, to say that our pitching will come back. I can see it for evey single start except for Freddy because of such a difference in his physical abilities this year.

I want the Freddy who can shut down a team again. We need him for the playoff push and our playoff games.

Hitmen77
07-09-2006, 10:38 PM
Man, and Seattle has already conceded this weekends games to the Tigger's.....boy this smartz..............:angry:

At least this game is OVER.........:supernana:


It's a good thinkg that someone forgot to tell the Mariners that they already conceded today's game to the Tigers.