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guillen4life13
02-11-2002, 06:09 PM
I don't remember where, but I've read and heard that LTP is supposed to be the best hitter many have seen since Mickey Mantle.

Is he really that good, or was that an exaggerated comment?

If it turns out that he supposedly seriously is, then shouldn't he have hit more along the lines of .350 in AA? He can't be THAT good, can he?

BTW, what kind of batting averages did the Hurt have in the minors (AA)?

Huisj
02-11-2002, 06:29 PM
batted .323 in 109 games for the Barons with a league-best 112 walks...cracked 18 home runs while driving in 71...named Topps Southern League Player of the Month for July.

this was on mlb.com about Frank's 1990 stint in AA before they brought him up.

SoxFanAaron
02-11-2002, 06:52 PM
At the risk of sounding like an idiot, who is LTP?

GO SOX!!!

Bmr31
02-11-2002, 06:57 PM
who the hell is LTP????

Jerry_Manuel
02-11-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by SoxFanAaron
At the risk of sounding like an idiot, who is LTP?


A nickname for Joe Borchard.

Give this a look (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=)

Bmr31
02-11-2002, 07:00 PM
blah blah blah, lol. Im not buying any of the hype until the guy produces on a major league field. If i remember correctly wasnt ray durham supposed to be the next joe morgan?

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-11-2002, 07:31 PM
:ray = :morgan



:gulp:
I love this feature. It brings out the dork in me!

Daver
02-11-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by SoxRulecubsdrool

:gulp:
I love this feature. It brings out the dork in me!

We're happy for you.

FarWestChicago
02-11-2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


A nickname for Joe Borchard.

Give this a look (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=) Good job, Jer! :smile:

CLR01
02-11-2002, 07:54 PM
Can we atleast let the guy get out of AA before we start writing his name on the HOF ballot?

Jjav829
02-11-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
Can we atleast let the guy get out of AA before we start writing his name on the HOF ballot?

No. His induction is this year.

czalgosz
02-11-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829


No. His induction is this year.

Man, you guys are on fire today...

People are going to rip on me for saying this, but Thomas is a better hitter than Mantle ever was.

Daver
02-11-2002, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Man, you guys are on fire today...

People are going to rip on me for saying this, but Thomas is a better hitter than Mantle ever was.

Mantle was a switch hitter though.Other than that you are correct.

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-11-2002, 08:27 PM
:gulp:
Now Daver, If we had an Ed McMahon picture we could say "Yes sir, you are correct!"
Drink up! :gulp:

guillen4life13
02-11-2002, 09:16 PM
i'm not trying to hype the man up. i'm trying to see if he's been overhyped or not. vsahajpal might be the one who would be able to answer this, since he's seen the man play live.

I would not have any problem saying that Thomas is one of the top 10 hitters all time, in response to that. 2 me, i'd say he was what Giambi is now, only rightie. Giambi's gonna cool down, but they're gonna go down as being statistically similar careerwise, imo.

as for ltp (borchard for ya'll out there), will he be able to hit .320-.350 at the major league level with development? I have my doubts saying anything like that with anyone, period. Can he pump 30-50+ homers in a season with development? 120-160 rbi?

I want to know if this is going to be someone who will make the hall, as we see him now. for all we know, he may be the next robin ventura, who was hyped up, but became a decent player, not a superstar. I need Robin's autograph on my autograph hat. it's a shame he ended up where he is now, although he's probably overjoyed.

mrhootsbball1369
02-11-2002, 09:26 PM
btw, what does LTP stand for, i am fairly new to this site so i wouldn't know can anyone tell me? thanks, i would appreicate it.

doublem23
02-11-2002, 09:30 PM
Here:

LTP - Joe Borchard. A reverential term coined by Vsahajpal who witnessed Light Tower Power by Joe in Arizona.

For all your WSI Lingo needs, click here. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=)

FarWestChicago
02-11-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by mrhootsbball1369
btw, what does LTP stand for, i am fairly new to this site so i wouldn't know can anyone tell me? thanks, i would appreicate it. We do have resources:

WSI Dictionary (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=L) :smile:

Vsahajpal
02-11-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
i'm not trying to hype the man up. i'm trying to see if he's been overhyped or not. vsahajpal might be the one who would be able to answer this, since he's seen the man play live.

I would not have any problem saying that Thomas is one of the top 10 hitters all time, in response to that. 2 me, i'd say he was what Giambi is now, only rightie. Giambi's gonna cool down, but they're gonna go down as being statistically similar careerwise, imo.

as for ltp (borchard for ya'll out there), will he be able to hit .320-.350 at the major league level with development? I have my doubts saying anything like that with anyone, period. Can he pump 30-50+ homers in a season with development? 120-160 rbi?

I want to know if this is going to be someone who will make the hall, as we see him now. for all we know, he may be the next robin ventura, who was hyped up, but became a decent player, not a superstar. I need Robin's autograph on my autograph hat. it's a shame he ended up where he is now, although he's probably overjoyed.

I'll try.

Having never seen Mantle play, I can only go based on his stats and outsider rhetoric.

First, let's start with the fact that Mantle was 5'11 180 lb, and Borchard is 6'4 225 lb. That tells me that Mantle's power was probably a direct result of an extremely quick bat thru the hitting zone. Borchard's power is a direct result of amazing strength, though he does have good bat speed as well.

Mantle was a very selective hitter; throughout his prime, there were several seasons in which he walked more than he fanned. I have a hard time believing Joe will do that, though I do think he'll become a more selective hitter.

I've seen Borchard linked to Thome a few times by scouts. He may not walk over 100 times in his career, but the output will be similar. What separates the two is that Borchard has the ability to be a plus centerfielder and a gold-glove RF, and Thome's switch to 1b is about all you need to know about his defensive ability.

Daver
02-11-2002, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I'll try.

Having never seen Mantle play, I can only go based on his stats and outsider rhetoric.

First, let's start with the fact that Mantle was 5'11 180 lb, and Borchard is 6'4 225 lb. That tells me that Mantle's power was probably a direct result of an extremely quick bat thru the hitting zone. Borchard's power is a direct result of amazing strength, though he does have good bat speed as well.

Mantle was a very selective hitter; throughout his prime, there were several seasons in which he walked more than he fanned. I have a hard time believing Joe will do that, though I do think he'll become a more selective hitter.

I've seen Borchard linked to Thome a few times by scouts. He may not walk over 100 times in his career, but the output will be similar. What separates the two is that Borchard has the ability to be a plus centerfielder and a gold-glove RF, and Thome's switch to 1b is about all you need to know about his defensive ability.

Thome in the outfeild was another member of the glove on your head crew.

kermittheefrog
02-11-2002, 10:06 PM
Really I think likening almost any prospect to Mickey Mantle is overhyping him. We'll have to wait for another Arod to come around to justify those kinds of words.

Joe Borchard vs. Mickey Mantle? Let's just say that by Borchards age Mickey was a 3 time All-Star and a year off his first MVP season. So LTP has some catchign up to do if he's gonna match the Mick.

duke of dorwood
02-11-2002, 10:29 PM
I hate the hype thing. I go back to when BOBBY Bonds was the next Willie Mays, and Bobby Murcer was the next Mantle. While both had good careers, they both never approached the hype. Case and point, they both spent time late in their careers in Chicago.

WinningUgly!
02-12-2002, 01:00 AM
LTP Next Mickey Mantle?
I don't remember where, but I've read and heard that LTP is supposed to be the best hitter many have seen since Mickey Mantle.
Nice! Nothing like putting unattainable expectations on a guy! I've also read where White Sox scouts said that LTP has more power than any player they've seen in college baseball since Mark McGwire. What the hell, I'll make a prediction too...he's a lock to shatter Hank Aaron's records!

voodoochile
02-12-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!

Nice! Nothing like putting unattainable expectations on a guy! I've also read where White Sox scouts said that LTP has more power than any player they've seen in college baseball since Mark McGwire. What the hell, I'll make a prediction too...he's a lock to shatter Hank Aaron's records!


Was there supposed to be some teal in there somewhere?

WinningUgly!
02-12-2002, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile



Was there supposed to be some teal in there somewhere?

Yeah, just got lazy. :D:

kermittheefrog
02-12-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!

Nice! Nothing like putting unattainable expectations on a guy! I've also read where White Sox scouts said that LTP has more power than any player they've seen in college baseball since Mark McGwire. What the hell, I'll make a prediction too...he's a lock to shatter Hank Aaron's records!

That's nothing, I predict he's going to hit 74 home runs in his rookie season with one hand.

RedPinStripes
02-12-2002, 07:06 AM
I think Borchard is way over hyped. It's not going to help him either with all the pressure he will get from the media and Fans when he gets here. Wasn't it JR that said he was going to be the next mantle? Yeah, listen to the guy who built a 90's version of YankMe stadium.

WinningUgly!
02-12-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


That's nothing, I predict he's going to hit 74 home runs in his rookie season with one hand.

He'll be signing autographs with the other hand to create a more fan friendly environment & help Uncle Jerry fill the seats. :D:

Randar68
02-12-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I think Borchard is way over hyped. It's not going to help him either with all the pressure he will get from the media and Fans when he gets here. Wasn't it JR that said he was going to be the next mantle? Yeah, listen to the guy who built a 90's version of YankMe stadium.

Borchard is very mature and has a great head on his shoulders. He could care less what critics and people like the posters here say, he is just going to work as hard as he can and be the best player he can be.

Hitting .350? I find it unlikely that Borchard will ever do that. However, hitting around .300, with an OBP between .380 and .400 with 50 HR's is definitely attainable for him.

I think Borchard and Dunn will be two of the top 5 power hitters over the next 10 years, but it's all speculation at this point...

The Mantle analogy is simply foolish....

WinningUgly!
02-12-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Randar68

Borchard is very mature and has a great head on his shoulders. He could care less what critics and people like the posters here say, he is just going to work as hard as he can and be the best player he can be.


What? You're telling me he doesn't check in here before each game to pick up a few pointers? :?:

Jjav829
02-12-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


What? You're telling me he doesn't check in here before each game to pick up a few pointers? :?:

Well damn. Whats the point of posting now? :?:

voodoochile
02-12-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Borchard is very mature and has a great head on his shoulders. He could care less what critics and people like the posters here say, he is just going to work as hard as he can and be the best player he can be.

Hitting .350? I find it unlikely that Borchard will ever do that. However, hitting around .300, with an OBP between .380 and .400 with 50 HR's is definitely attainable for him.

I think Borchard and Dunn will be two of the top 5 power hitters over the next 10 years, but it's all speculation at this point...

The Mantle analogy is simply foolish....

Well I agree that comparing any minor league player to one of the great players of all time (some will argue - THE BEST), when I look at your "attainable numbers" I see some very Mantle-esque qualities to them.

Again, I am NOT saying Borchard = Mantle, but we all go out of our way to point out that we are NOT flubbie fans - yet the numbers posted above, speak for themselves...

If the man approaches 500HR with a career avg of .300 and a .380+ OBP those numbers would be lock HOF numbers and there is nothing in Randar's analysis that says they won't happen...

Will they? Man I hope so...

czalgosz
02-12-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Well I agree that comparing any minor league player to one of the great players of all time (some will argue - THE BEST), when I look at your "attainable numbers" I see some very Mantle-esque qualities to them.

Again, I am NOT saying Borchard = Mantle, but we all go out of our way to point out that we are NOT flubbie fans - yet the numbers posted above, speak for themselves...

If the man approaches 500HR with a career avg of .300 and a .380+ OBP those numbers would be lock HOF numbers and there is nothing in Randar's analysis that says they won't happen...

Will they? Man I hope so...

Not to break out the "greatest player of all time" argument again, but Mantle isn't even close to that level. He was very, very good, but aside from his 1956 campaign, he wasn't the best even during his own time.

But the comparisons to Mantle are inevitable in Borchard's case - big guy, power from both sides of the plate (how often do you see that?), center-fielder with a great arm but not much in the way of range...

I just hope that he doesn't step on a sprinkler head and destroy his knee the way Mantle did.

voodoochile
02-12-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Not to break out the "greatest player of all time" argument again, but Mantle isn't even close to that level. He was very, very good, but aside from his 1956 campaign, he wasn't the best even during his own time.

But the comparisons to Mantle are inevitable in Borchard's case - big guy, power from both sides of the plate (how often do you see that?), center-fielder with a great arm but not much in the way of range...

I just hope that he doesn't step on a sprinkler head and destroy his knee the way Mantle did.

The drinking didn't help either...

czalgosz
02-12-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


The drinking didn't help either...

Well, from what I understand, Mantle started drinking only really heavily after he ruined his knee. Apparently he was in pretty much constant pain after that, and drink helped him deal with it. I could be wrong on that, though.

FarmerAndy
02-12-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I don't remember where, but I've read and heard that LTP is supposed to be the best hitter many have seen since Mickey Mantle.

Is he really that good, or was that an exaggerated comment?

(AA)?

This was taken out of context. Last week on the score, Boers and Bernstien were reading a report on LTP. It was noted that there haven't really haven't been any center fielders that could hit with power from both sides of the plate since Mickey Mantle. They were trying to think of some, but didn't come up with much.

I don't think anybody was saying that LTP is the next Mickey Mantle. They were just stating that, like Mantle, he is a center fielder that can hit with power from both sides of the plate.

Besides, to say that anybody is the best hitter since Mantle is pretty silly. There were alot of better hitters before Mantle, and there have been plenty of better hitters since.

Soxboyrob
02-12-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

Besides, to say that anybody is the best hitter since Mantle is pretty silly. There were alot of better hitters before Mantle, and there have been plenty of better hitters since.

Really? sheesh, I'd sure like to know who some of the better hitters than Mickey are since he left the game. Mickey was great at all aspects.

LongDistanceFan
02-12-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by daver


Thome in the outfeild was another member of the glove on your head crew. yeah throw in shammy and belle and you really have a gold glove "OF"

LongDistanceFan
02-12-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Borchard is very mature and has a great head on his shoulders. He could care less what critics and people like the posters here say, he is just going to work as hard as he can and be the best player he can be.

Hitting .350? I find it unlikely that Borchard will ever do that. However, hitting around .300, with an OBP between .380 and .400 with 50 HR's is definitely attainable for him.

I think Borchard and Dunn will be two of the top 5 power hitters over the next 10 years, but it's all speculation at this point...

The Mantle analogy is simply foolish.... i like the of'er from tx rangers minor league team and the other reds minor to put with what you said.

Nellie_Fox
02-12-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
People are going to rip on me for saying this, but Thomas is a better hitter than Mantle ever was.
Frank is capable of a triple crown; Mantle won one.

guillen4life13
02-12-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Borchard is very mature and has a great head on his shoulders. He could care less what critics and people like the posters here say, he is just going to work as hard as he can and be the best player he can be.

Hitting .350? I find it unlikely that Borchard will ever do that. However, hitting around .300, with an OBP between .380 and .400 with 50 HR's is definitely attainable for him.

I think Borchard and Dunn will be two of the top 5 power hitters over the next 10 years, but it's all speculation at this point...

The Mantle analogy is simply foolish....

look, ok? i tried to get it across in my last post, but apparently some people didn't understand. I"M NOT TRYING TO HYPE HIM UP!!! I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF HE'S BEEN OVERHYPED. MY QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED PRETTY WELL, BUT THERE'S NO REASON FOR YOU TO MAKE THAT COMMENT, OK?

Randar68
02-12-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13


look, ok? i tried to get it across in my last post, but apparently some people didn't understand. I"M NOT TRYING TO HYPE HIM UP!!! I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF HE'S BEEN OVERHYPED. MY QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED PRETTY WELL, BUT THERE'S NO REASON FOR YOU TO MAKE THAT COMMENT, OK?

"The Mantle analogy is simply foolish.... "

This is a blanket statement. No need to take personal, or TYPE IN ALL CAPS!!!!!! ok?

czalgosz
02-12-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

Frank is capable of a triple crown; Mantle won one.

I mentioned Mantle's 1956 season in this thread. It was similar to Bonds' 2001 season in terms of offensive impact.

Mantle had 4 great seasons - 1956-1958 and 1961. In those 4 seasons, he averaged a .322 BA with 42 homers and 128 RBIs per season.

In the 10 complete seasons that Thomas has played (everything except 1990 and 2001), Thomas has put up a .319 average, with 34 homers and 115 RBIs per season.

The era that both players played in affects things, but a lot of Thomas' best seasons came before the offensive boom of 1995.

If Mantle had been healthy and sober, I'm sure he'd have been twice the hitter Thomas is. But he wasn't, so he wasn't.

FarmerAndy
02-12-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Really? sheesh, I'd sure like to know who some of the better hitters than Mickey are since he left the game. Mickey was great at all aspects.

Let me get this strait, you believe that there have been no hitters better than Mantle since he left the game?

Bmr31
02-12-2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy


Let me get this strait, you believe that there have been no hitters better than Mantle since he left the game?

i cant speak for him but i certainly believe that.

RedPinStripes
02-12-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Borchard is very mature and has a great head on his shoulders. He could care less what critics and people like the posters here say, he is just going to work as hard as he can and be the best player he can be.

Hitting .350? I find it unlikely that Borchard will ever do that. However, hitting around .300, with an OBP between .380 and .400 with 50 HR's is definitely attainable for him.

I think Borchard and Dunn will be two of the top 5 power hitters over the next 10 years, but it's all speculation at this point...

The Mantle analogy is simply foolish....

I hope you're exactly right. I'll take those numbers!

Soxboyrob
02-13-2002, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

Let me get this strait, you believe that there have been no hitters better than Mantle since he left the game?

Not particularly, no. There have been players, such as Bonds, that have had a Mantle or better than Mantle-like season or two, but Mantle's overall abilities have really only been approached by a couple of guys since the Mick. Frank comes to mind, among a couple of others. What stands out the most about Mickey is the way he rated among his peers. His numbers right now would just be good instead of great, but he was the best of the bunch for most of a very long span when he played. Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds are the only two that come to mind in this sense and to a smaller degree, ARod.

Bmr31
02-13-2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Not particularly, no. There have been players, such as Bonds, that have had a Mantle or better than Mantle-like season or two, but Mantle's overall abilities have really only been approached by a couple of guys since the Mick. Frank comes to mind, among a couple of others. What stands out the most about Mickey is the way he rated among his peers. His numbers right now would just be good instead of great, but he was the best of the bunch for most of a very long span when he played. Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds are the only two that come to mind in this sense and to a smaller degree, ARod.


sorry guys i think we are being a little biased here. You are mentioning frank thomas in the same breath as mantle. You are mentioning frank thomas as one of the two best hitter since mantle? Are you kidding me? Frank thomas doesnt even rank in the top ten hitters in baseball RIGHT NOW. IF you werent a sox fan, youd barely know frank. Come on guys, please, lets be realistic okay?

Vsahajpal
02-13-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



sorry guys i think we are being a little biased here. You are mentioning frank thomas in the same breath as mantle. You are mentioning frank thomas as one of the two best hitter since mantle? Are you kidding me? Frank thomas doesnt even rank in the top ten hitters in baseball RIGHT NOW. IF you werent a sox fan, youd barely know frank. Come on guys, please, lets be realistic okay?

I'm not biased :D:

Is Thomas a better hitter than Mantle? I'd say so. What's the best measure of a hitter's ability? I'd say OPS. Frank Thomas is 6th all-time in that category:

Rank Player OPS
1. Babe Ruth* 1.1636
2. Ted Williams* 1.1154
3. Lou Gehrig* 1.0798
4. Jimmie Foxx* 1.0376
5. Hank Greenberg* 1.0169
6. Frank Thomas 1.0153
7. Rogers Hornsby* 1.0103
8. Barry Bonds 1.0034
9. Manny Ramirez 1.0002
10. Mark McGwire .9823
11. Mickey Mantle* .9773
12. Joe DiMaggio* .9771
13. Stan Musial* .9757
14. Mike Piazza .9700
15. Jeff Bagwell .9694

FarmerAndy
02-13-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



sorry guys i think we are being a little biased here. You are mentioning frank thomas in the same breath as mantle. You are mentioning frank thomas as one of the two best hitter since mantle? Are you kidding me? Frank thomas doesnt even rank in the top ten hitters in baseball RIGHT NOW. IF you werent a sox fan, youd barely know frank. Come on guys, please, lets be realistic okay?

I have to disagree with you there. So far, Frank has a better career batting average, slugging percentage, and on-base percentage than Mantle. Frank's career on-base percentage is the 6th best of any major league player to ever play the game.

Frank is an idiot, therefore the media doesn't give him much attention or hype. He truly is one of great hitters in the history of the game. He just may never get the recognition for it.

I'm not trying to play down Mantle, he was a GREAT hitter. I can't even agree, though, that he was the best hitter of his time. If anybody tries to argue that Mantle was a better hitter than Ted Williams, they need their heads checked out.

Soxboyrob
02-13-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31

sorry guys i think we are being a little biased here. You are mentioning frank thomas in the same breath as mantle. You are mentioning frank thomas as one of the two best hitter since mantle? Are you kidding me? Frank thomas doesnt even rank in the top ten hitters in baseball RIGHT NOW. IF you werent a sox fan, youd barely know frank. Come on guys, please, lets be realistic okay?

Sorry man, no bias here. I've been one of Frank's biggest detractors at times, but there is no denying his numbers. Take a look at where Frank compares to his peers for all of the 90's. There is no denying that Frank is arguably on the same planet as Mantle. Frank received the most MVP votes of any player for the entire decade of the 90's. Several analysts have been heard comparing Frank to the all time greats...Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Foxx, etc. No doubt Frank's fallen on harder times in 3 of his last 4 seasons, but you can't deny the man his props for the ungodly numbers he posted between '90 and '98. Yes, Frank can very much be compared to Mantle in the same breath and in some areas very favorably.

FarmerAndy
02-13-2002, 11:53 AM
I see sahajpal beat me to the punch on the OBP thing.

FarmerAndy
02-13-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I see sahajpal beat me to the punch on the OBP thing.

I didn't look close enough, you posted OPS, not OBP.

Still, Frank does have the 6th best OBP of all time.