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JUribe1989
07-01-2006, 01:58 PM
Vazquez has given up 5 runs in 4.2 IP thus far as I make this post, and that means no matter what his ERA will be above 5 after another bad start. Are we ready to admit that is was a bad trade to get Vazquez for El Duque and Chris Young. With all of Anderson's struggles, we could use Young at CF on the Knights so he could come up if Anderson doesn't work out in the near future. El Duque could have been a useful arm in the 'pen just like he was during the last few games on last season and 2 appearances in the playoffs. I really think McCarthy would be a better option in the rotation at this point instead of Vazquez.

Thoughts?

shaunburnette
07-01-2006, 02:02 PM
:threadsucks

ndgt10
07-01-2006, 02:03 PM
All I know is that Vazquez is horrible. I'm so sick of seeing him on the verge of a meltdown every inning.

shaunburnette
07-01-2006, 02:05 PM
There is no doubt he is struggling right now. That being said, who has a better #5? How can you assume McCarthey, who ALSO has struggled at times this year, is going to produce better?

rowand33
07-01-2006, 02:08 PM
Vazquez has given up 5 runs in 4.2 IP thus far as I make this post, and that means no matter what his ERA will be above 5 after another bad start. Are we ready to admit that is was a bad trade to get Vazquez for El Duque and Chris Young. With all of Anderson's struggles, we could use Young at CF on the Knights so he could come up if Anderson doesn't work out in the near future. El Duque could have been a useful arm in the 'pen just like he was during the last few games on last season and 2 appearances in the playoffs. I really think McCarthy would be a better option in the rotation at this point instead of Vazquez.

Thoughts?

I agree. Young was my favorite of our outfield prospects.

Vazquez needs to show us something to justify that trade.

The Immigrant
07-01-2006, 02:08 PM
McCarthy doesn't make $12 million.

For the highest paid pitcher on this staff, even if he is the 5th starter (whatever that means during the regular season), he should be a lot better.

Palehose13
07-01-2006, 02:09 PM
I think calling Vazquez horrible is a little too much. He is struggling. Maybe he is tipping his pitches or something. I do know that he has potential and is probably the best #5 out there. The Sox still have a great rotation. You guys are really grasping for straws when you are calling for the head of of the #5 pitcher who is 8-4 with a 5.00 ERA.

shaunburnette
07-01-2006, 02:11 PM
I think calling Vazquez horrible is a little too much. He is struggling. Maybe he is tipping his pitches or something. I do know that he has potential and is probably the best #5 out there. The Sox still have a great rotation. You guys are really grasping for straws when you are calling for the head of of the #5 pitcher who is 8-4 with a 5.00 ERA.

Not to mention suggesting flipping McCarthey out of a role he just got comfortable with and thinking he will immediately pitch llights out.

JUribe1989
07-01-2006, 02:12 PM
There is no doubt he is struggling right now. That being said, who has a better #5? How can you assume McCarthey, who ALSO has struggled at times this year, is going to produce better?

McCarthy was fantastic last year after coming up from the minors in September, and this year he is inconsistent because he isn't used to being a relief pitcher. I bet if you put Vazquez in a relief pitcher role he would be less successful than McCarthy has been. Also, Luis Vizcaino has done a sold job out of the D'backs 'pen and we could use him back.

santo=dorf
07-01-2006, 02:18 PM
McCarthy was fantastic last year after coming up from the minors in September, and this year he is inconsistent because he isn't used to being a relief pitcher. I bet if you put Vazquez in a relief pitcher role he would be less successful than McCarthy has been. Also, Luis Vizcaino has done a sold job out of the D'backs 'pen and we could use him back.
Vizcaino has a 9.39 ERA in June (Javy had a 7.50) his overall is now 4.24.

How would've Young help the club this year?

Duque has been worse than Vazquez this year.

Vazquez is not a free agent after this year, and the Sox aren't paying $12 million per.

So yes, it is way, way too early to write off this trade.

This crap reminds me of Jose Contreras at the end of 2004.

"He makes $8 million a year!!!"
"Put him in the bullpen!"

SouthSide_HitMen
07-01-2006, 02:36 PM
I think calling Vazquez horrible is a little too much. He is struggling. Maybe he is tipping his pitches or something. I do know that he has potential and is probably the best #5 out there. The Sox still have a great rotation. You guys are really grasping for straws when you are calling for the head of of the #5 pitcher who is 8-4 with a 5.00 ERA.

Not to mention the wind is blowing out at 18 - 25 MPH.

This thread is asinine.

Palehose13
07-01-2006, 02:38 PM
Vizcaino has a 9.39 ERA in June (Javy had a 7.50) his overall is now 4.24.

How would've Young help the club this year?

Duque has been worse than Vazquez this year.

Vazquez is not a free agent after this year, and the Sox aren't paying $12 million per.

So yes, it is way, way too early to write off this trade.

This crap reminds me of Jose Contreras at the end of 2004.

"He makes $8 million a year!!!"
"Put him in the bullpen!"

C'mon now. Why let facts get in the way? :wink:

Sox-o-matic
07-01-2006, 02:39 PM
I hope Javy figures it out because he seems to lose confidence or focus or something late in the game and leaves pitches up and out over the plate.

He's got some great stuff but its just so frustrating to watch him pitch lately because he'll make 3 or four big mistakes in a row and get hurt.

Brian26
07-01-2006, 02:41 PM
Are we ready to admit that is was a bad trade to get Vazquez for El Duque and Chris Young. Thoughts?

Bottom line- too early to tell. Vazquez has the ability to go on a tear like Contreras did during the 2nd half last year. Vazquez could very well be our most valuable pitcher down the stretch.

IlliniSox4Life
07-01-2006, 02:43 PM
I'm too lazy to get the graphic, but...


THE SKY IS FALLING!!! OMG!!!

Chisox003
07-01-2006, 02:46 PM
Did you see those names on that list of most K's since 2000?

Pedro, Clemens, Schilling, Randy Johnson and....Vazquez.

He's got unbelievable stuff (read something the other day, a lot of scouts think he has the BEST "stuff" in all of baseball). If there was a man who could get it out of him, it's Coop. In Coop I trust.

JUribe, your negativity is absolutely ridiculous. It's in every game thread ("Anderson is worthless" or "Jesus Vazquez can you throw over 90). It's annoying as hell, give it a rest.

Jjav829
07-01-2006, 02:49 PM
Did you see those names on that list of most K's since 2000?

Pedro, Clemens, Schilling, Randy Johnson and....Vazquez.

He's got unbelievable stuff (read something the other day, a lot of scouts think he has the BEST "stuff" in all of baseball). If there was a man who could get it out of him, it's Coop. In Coop I trust.

JUribe, your negativity is absolutely ridiculous. It's in every game thread ("Anderson is worthless" or "Jesus Vazquez can you throw over 90). It's annoying as hell, give it a rest.

Who the hell are these scouts? :?: Do they actually have jobs as scouts, or do they just call themselves scouts to sound smart? I mean there are two guys in the Twins rotation alone who have better stuff. Nevermind the other 28 teams and at least one guy in our rotation who has better stuff.

As for the thread itself, it's a little early but I'm certainly not encouraged by what Vazquez has done so far.

ilsox7
07-01-2006, 02:50 PM
JUribe, your negativity is absolutely ridiculous. It's in every game thread ("Anderson is worthless" or "Jesus Vazquez can you throw over 90). It's annoying as hell, give it a rest.

I'd like to introduce you to the "Ignore" function. It does wonders.

StatHead21
07-01-2006, 03:04 PM
Vizcaino has a 9.39 ERA in June (Javy had a 7.50) his overall is now 4.24.

How would've Young help the club this year?

Duque has been worse than Vazquez this year.

Vazquez is not a free agent after this year, and the Sox aren't paying $12 million per.

So yes, it is way, way too early to write off this trade.

This crap reminds me of Jose Contreras at the end of 2004.

"He makes $8 million a year!!!"
"Put him in the bullpen!"

Vizcaino has done better than Politte
Kenny would have gotten rid of Duque one way or another
Chris Young would help the Sox because its not that hard to out produce Anderson
I'm not writing off this trade but its been pretty one sided so far...

tstrike2000
07-01-2006, 03:11 PM
Vazquez has way too good of stuff to get rid of him, especially as a #5 starter. He's a stud when he's right. Obviously he's not right now, but if Coop can help him make those adjustments ie. throwing a heavier diet of sliders, getting that tailing fastball down and inside to right handed hitters, and getting on top of that curve ball...he'll be awesome for us in the second half. Right now, he'll throw that great slider, tailing fastball in to right handed hitters, but then hang a curve ball or leave the fastball up out over the plate. Just him getting that fastball down and in to righties and throwing that slider more will make him a much better pitcher.

slobes
07-01-2006, 03:37 PM
Did you see those names on that list of most K's since 2000?

Pedro, Clemens, Schilling, Randy Johnson and....Vazquez.

He's got unbelievable stuff (read something the other day, a lot of scouts think he has the BEST "stuff" in all of baseball). If there was a man who could get it out of him, it's Coop. In Coop I trust.

JUribe, your negativity is absolutely ridiculous. It's in every game thread ("Anderson is worthless" or "Jesus Vazquez can you throw over 90). It's annoying as hell, give it a rest.

I was stunned with that. I had no idea he had been pitching that well the last couple years. I think he's just in a rut. Earlier in the year we were all saying how great of a trade it was. Every pitcher has a few mediocre starts.

TDog
07-01-2006, 03:49 PM
Wait, I thought people wanted to make Vazquez the No. 4 starter because Garland isn't any good. Or maybe they wanted McCarthy to be the fourth and fifth starters.

Maybe we should dump Riske because he gave up the lead.

Why don't you just enjoy the ride of a team that is putting together an incredible season after last year's incredible season?

Tragg
07-01-2006, 03:52 PM
Vasquez has struggled since the first 6 weeks; not only does he make an immense salary, we trade bullpen pitchers and a grade A centerfield prospect for him (2 spots everyone wants to make a trade to fill). Don't chase the losses; try him in the pen and see if he can use that "stuff" for something worthwhile or get it back together.

If Cliff Politte, who pitched well for an entire year for us, deserves a thread beating on him when he gives up one run; then I see no objection to a thread for someone who has pitched well for us for about 6 weeks, and that was 1.5 months ago.

swanson24
07-01-2006, 04:37 PM
Vazquez is struggling and it can be uncomfortable to watch him when he is going bad but he has great stuff he has just struggled with his pitch selection and has had some problems getting over mistakes made during a game like Bad calls by the umpires, bouncing back after giving up a homerun or double. He is too talented of a pitcher to have an ERA like this. Keep the faith in Javier he will impprove and will be a huge player for us in the second half and beyond.

rowand33
07-01-2006, 04:59 PM
Vazquez is struggling and it can be uncomfortable to watch him when he is going bad but he has great stuff he has just struggled with his pitch selection and has had some problems getting over mistakes made during a game like Bad calls by the umpires, bouncing back after giving up a homerun or double. He is too talented of a pitcher to have an ERA like this. Keep the faith in Javier he will impprove and will be a huge player for us in the second half and beyond.

I wonder if Yankees and DBacks fans thought that too...

4.42 ERA last year, 4.91 ERA the year before that year. a combined 33-29 from 2004-2006. career .500 win percentage

Javy is 8-4 with a 5.15 ERA this year... he projects to go 16-8 but only because the team averages 7.6 runs everytime the guy starts.

We all know he has all the talent in the world, but is he ever goign to get it together? God knows I want him to, but it's been half a season and he isn't showing signs of getting that much better. Maybe he's tipping pitches... well he's started 16 games... fix it.

So I don't think we should trade the guy, but I'd like to see Sox fans quit making excuses for him.

California Sox
07-01-2006, 05:08 PM
Did you see those names on that list of most K's since 2000?

Pedro, Clemens, Schilling, Randy Johnson and....Vazquez.

He's got unbelievable stuff (read something the other day, a lot of scouts think he has the BEST "stuff" in all of baseball). If there was a man who could get it out of him, it's Coop. In Coop I trust.
Saw same article. Scouts added "look up he's given up seven runs." Everybody is mystified about why this guy doesn't have success.

His strikeout totals are meaningless. Look at today's game 6IP 11H 5ER 1BB 7SO. 7-1 ratio and yet a 7.50 ERA and a 2.0 WHIP. And I don't believe he's tipping pitches. His problem is that when he makes a mistake it's in the zone (usually a fastball right down the middle or up). Major league hitters don't miss many of those and they haven't the last 2+ years. I don't think there's much deception in his delivery so when he lobs a cookie up there, it gets creamed. Maybe he needs to learn a cutter or put an emory board in his glove.

At the very least he needs to make some adjustment. Seems to be doing the same thing expecting different results.

MRM
07-01-2006, 05:50 PM
Cmon, the guy was lights out early in the year. Flirted with a no-hitter twice. Obviously he's struggling right now, but so is Garland and even Contreras. The funny thing is, the only reason we can talk about these guys struggling is in comparison to last years staff numbers. That simply wasn't going to happen again. Vazquez has always been an enigma. Fantastic stuff, but not always fantastic control. Kinda like Contreras pre-Sox. He can go thru stretches where you wonder how anyone ever gets a hit off of him but is also succeptible to slides where you just want to choke the guy. Still, name a better #5 starter in baseball.

DickAllen72
07-01-2006, 05:50 PM
Vasquez has struggled since the first 6 weeks; not only does he make an immense salary, we trade bullpen pitchers and a grade A centerfield prospect for him (2 spots everyone wants to make a trade to fill). Don't chase the losses; try him in the pen and see if he can use that "stuff" for something worthwhile or get it back together.


Good call. Give him one more start and if he doesn't pitch well put him in the bullpen after the All Star break and let McCarthy be the fifth starter.

The problem isn't Vazquez' stuff, it's his lack of stones and his mental weakness. Maybe he can focus more pitching only a couple of innings at a time. He rarely gets past the sixth inning as a starter lately anyway.

If they can trade him for some bullpen help or a couple of good pitching prospects they should do it.

I always liked Contreras even when he was struggling but I don't see the intangibles in Vazquez. As Harry would say, "A million dollar talent and a ten cent brain."

I also don't appreciate the fact that he can let his catcher get drilled twice then not even pitch inside and move the opposing batters off the plate, allowing them to hit him around. Then after the game he states that he knew Padilla threw at A.J. intentionally the first time. :angry:

QCIASOXFAN
07-01-2006, 05:54 PM
I wouldn't go that far to call him horrible, but he is definitely struggling. He still has great stuff but hes just in a funk at the moment.

dickallen15
07-01-2006, 06:05 PM
Except for 3 starts against KC and a couple of good ones against Cleveland, Vazquez has been awful this season. This year, Young probably wouldn't have helped the White Sox and Duque and Vizcaino probably wouldn't make much of a difference. This trade is going to hurt next season when the Sox have to pay this guy $12 million, and Young is tearing it up for Arizona. That $12 million could be much better spent next season. He has great stuff, but his a mediocre pitcher. His career record doesn't lie.

rowand33
07-01-2006, 06:10 PM
Cmon, the guy was lights out early in the year. Flirted with a no-hitter twice. Obviously he's struggling right now, but so is Garland and even Contreras. The funny thing is, the only reason we can talk about these guys struggling is in comparison to last years staff numbers. That simply wasn't going to happen again. Vazquez has always been an enigma. Fantastic stuff, but not always fantastic control. Kinda like Contreras pre-Sox. He can go thru stretches where you wonder how anyone ever gets a hit off of him but is also succeptible to slides where you just want to choke the guy. Still, name a better #5 starter in baseball.

It's hard to use that argument for both Garland and Vazquez.

Like I said, I don't advocate trading the guy or sending him to the pen, but Sox fans have every right to be upset with him after half a season and a 5.15 ERA. We all thought this would be an ideal situation for him, changing from an ace to a 4 or 5, having Coop as his pitching coach, being in a clubhouse with a lot of other latin guys...

but we can't make excuses for him forever. We know he has great stuff. He needs to do something with it.

MRM
07-01-2006, 06:17 PM
Except for 3 starts against KC and a couple of good ones against Cleveland, Vazquez has been awful this season. This year, Young probably wouldn't have helped the White Sox and Duque and Vizcaino probably wouldn't make much of a difference. This trade is going to hurt next season when the Sox have to pay this guy $12 million, and Young is tearing it up for Arizona. That $12 million could be much better spent next season. He has great stuff, but his a mediocre pitcher. His career record doesn't lie.

The Sox aren't paying all of his salary and if that becomes an issue they'll just trade him anyhow. Even mediocre pitchers are in high demand these days.

I'm guessing he is a guy who, like Jose and Matt Thornton, Coop looked at and said "I can fix him". It took a while to get Contreras on track too...this time last year many fans were saying the same things about him. Besides, he IS 8-4. He might win 16 or 17 games and end up 4th on the staff in W's. I'll take that. I'm much more concerned about Garland who is untradable.

MRM
07-01-2006, 06:25 PM
It's hard to use that argument for both Garland and Vazquez.

Like I said, I don't advocate trading the guy or sending him to the pen, but Sox fans have every right to be upset with him after half a season and a 5.15 ERA. We all thought this would be an ideal situation for him, changing from an ace to a 4 or 5, having Coop as his pitching coach, being in a clubhouse with a lot of other latin guys...

but we can't make excuses for him forever. We know he has great stuff. He needs to do something with it.

Oh, I'm as frustrated as everyone else with Javiers inconsistency.

As for Garland, I've never been on his bandwagon. Never been impressed by him as anything more than a #4 or #5. Vasquez is definately the more talented pitcher of the two and I agree he's got to show more. Why the Sox gave Jon the no-trade clause is beyond me.

I know a LOT of people wanted the Sox to just dump Duque and start Brandon...but...there is a reason they didn't do that. We aren't privvy to everything. Perhaps McCarthy simply isn't ready mentally to handle the job on a permanent basis? I dunno. I do believe in the Sox brain trust enough that there has to be some reason.

rowand33
07-01-2006, 06:28 PM
Vazquez in June (+ today): 6 GS 2-1 with a 7.50 ERA 1/6 quality starts

Garland in June: 6 GS 3-1 with a 4.50 ERA 4/6 quality starts

I'm a lot less worried about Garland lately than I am Vazquez.

Jon hasn't been brutal for a while and if can continue being just slightly above average, I'll be happy.

I dunno what Javy needs to do, but he needs to do something. On the season, only half of his starts have been quality starts. Not cool.

rowand33
07-01-2006, 06:30 PM
Oh, I'm as frustrated as everyone else with Javiers inconsistency.

As for Garland, I've never been on his bandwagon. Never been impressed by him as anything more than a #4 or #5. Vasquez is definately the more talented pitcher of the two and I agree he's got to show more. Why the Sox gave Jon the no-trade clause is beyond me.

I know a LOT of people wanted the Sox to just dump Duque and start Brandon...but...there is a reason they didn't do that. We aren't privvy to everything. Perhaps McCarthy simply isn't ready mentally to handle the job on a permanent basis? I dunno. I do believe in the Sox brain trust enough that there has to be some reason.

Well, I felt in the offseason that there were a few reasons we didn't just move B.Mac into things.

1) It's tough enough to rely upon one (Anderson) let alone two rookies when you're trying to win a world series.
2) We needed B.Mac for the bullpen.

MRM
07-01-2006, 06:55 PM
Well, I felt in the offseason that there were a few reasons we didn't just move B.Mac into things.

1) It's tough enough to rely upon one (Anderson) let alone two rookies when you're trying to win a world series.
2) We needed B.Mac for the bullpen.

You may be on to something with the first one. Especially with all the problems the team has had from that #5 starter spot in recent years. They could have simply moved Duque to the bullpen if the second was an issue, tho.

russ99
07-01-2006, 07:08 PM
The thing is he's had flashes of brilliance at times, like the 2-hitter in May. He just needs to put it back together. Who knows, Vazquez may be the guy to save the Sox when some of our starters hit that dead arm period in August.

Plus, with his stuff, I'd love to have him in the pen in the playoffs

Lip Man 1
07-01-2006, 07:18 PM
Uribe:

Absolutely not...even with his flaws he's already got eight wins.

The thing with Vasquez is that he throws a ton of pitches, look at the number of strikeouts to walks he has. When you throw that many pitches sooner or later some are going to find their way over the plate.

Plus watching the highlights today he threw some great pitches that somehow, someway Ramirez got his bat on.

Sometimes you simply have to tip your hat to the hitter.

I will say this, come October, should the Sox get there, unless things change in the second half, he'll be the 'odd man' out of the rotation since you only need four guys and Garland has proven himself in the post-season to Ozzie.

Lip

Tragg
07-01-2006, 07:49 PM
The problem isn't Vazquez' stuff, it's his lack of stones and his mental weakness. Maybe he can focus more pitching only a couple of innings at a time. He rarely gets past the sixth inning as a starter lately anyway.

If they can trade him for some bullpen help or a couple of good pitching prospects they should do it.

I always liked Contreras even when he was struggling but I don't see the intangibles in Vazquez. As Harry would say, "A million dollar talent and a ten cent brain."

I also don't appreciate the fact that he can let his catcher get drilled twice then not even pitch inside and move the opposing batters off the plate, allowing them to hit him around. Then after the game he states that he knew Padilla threw at A.J. intentionally the first time. :angry:Then why didn't Ozzie tell him to drill a Ranger, instead of asking the rookie to do it and then yelling at him? At least Tracy threw inside.
Your synopsis makes sense to me.
At his salary, Vasquez is untradable. And someone who can throw Ks like him ought to be able to be of some use. As for the trade we made, it's water under the bridge, but El D could be a swing starter and either he or the other guy could man the last place in our pen...and Chris Young may be a great hitter, but we'll see on that. What isn't water under the bridge is the salary we're stuck with.

As of Garland, I guess I'm in the minority, but I like him; he gives a lot more quality starts than unquality starts, and generally has even before last year. He gets bombed sometimes inflating his ERA and usually allows like 3 or 4 in 7, which is a quality start for this team as it gives this team a chance to win

DickAllen72
07-01-2006, 08:09 PM
Then why didn't Ozzie tell him to drill a Ranger, instead of asking the rookie to do it and then yelling at him? At least Tracy threw inside.

Ozzie probably figured he didn't have to tell a veteran what to do.

I could see if Vazquez didn't want to hit someone right away so as to save the bullpen, but after five innings or so he could have done it. Not only did he not drill a Ranger, but he didn't even throw inside to move them off the plate when they were leaning on everything he was throwing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie and KW have lost respect for Vazquez because of that. I wonder how much A.J. thinks of him.

As of Garland, I guess I'm in the minority, but I like him; he gives a lot more quality starts than unquality starts, and generally has even before last year. He gets bombed sometimes inflating his ERA and usually allows like 3 or 4 in 7, which is a quality start for this team as it gives this team a chance to win

I'm with you on Garland.

DSpivack
07-01-2006, 11:26 PM
Well, I felt in the offseason that there were a few reasons we didn't just move B.Mac into things.

1) It's tough enough to rely upon one (Anderson) let alone two rookies when you're trying to win a world series.
2) We needed B.Mac for the bullpen.

Don't forget Jenks is basically a rookie.

oeo
07-01-2006, 11:28 PM
All I know is that Vazquez is horrible. I'm so sick of seeing him on the verge of a meltdown every inning.

All I know is that this is the EXACT thing I saw about Contreras last year. Sure, Vazquez pisses me off sometimes, but he isn't horrible. He's a #5 starter for us right now, and I have faith that he will be our #1 or #2 going into the postseason.

TornLabrum
07-01-2006, 11:30 PM
All I know is that this is the EXACT thing I saw about Contreras last year. Sure, Vazquez pisses me off sometimes, but he isn't horrible. He's a #5 starter for us right now, and I have faith that he will be our #1 or #2 going into the postseason.

I'm not ready to go that far, but you never know. We saw stanger things happen last year.

oeo
07-01-2006, 11:37 PM
I'm not ready to go that far, but you never know. We saw stanger things happen last year.
Why is it strange?

I find it funny that just 4 weeks ago, many of you had Javy written in as the #3 starter for the second half, with Freddy and Garland behind him. Maybe people should stop looking at a few starts, and look at the whole picture. They haven't even played a whole season yet...at this time last year, Contreras was "terrible". Javy has the stuff to be an ace, he'll get there. I have faith, and why not? Coop is arguably the best pitching coach in the game, and eventually Ozzie's confidence is going to be enstilled in Javy.

Javy is going to be fine. It's like deja vu all the time around here. If it's not Anderson, it's the bullpen. If it's not the bullpen, it's Garland. If it's not Garland, it's Freddy. If it's not Freddy, then it's Javy. And so on and so on and so on. I'll tell you what it is: OLD.

BTW, this isn't directed at you TornLabrum.

TornLabrum
07-01-2006, 11:44 PM
Why is it strange?

I find it funny that just 4 weeks ago, many of you had Javy written in as the #3 starter for the second half, with Freddy and Garland behind him. Maybe people should stop looking at a few starts, and look at the whole picture. They haven't even played a whole season yet...at this time last year, Contreras was "terrible". Javy has the stuff to be an ace, he'll get there. I have faith, and why not? Coop is arguably the best pitching coach in the game, and eventually Ozzie's confidence is going to be enstilled in Javy.

Javy is going to be fine. It's like deja vu all the time around here. If it's not Anderson, it's the bullpen. If it's not the bullpen, it's Garland. If it's not Garland, it's Freddy. If it's not Freddy, then it's Javy. And so on and so on and so on. I'll tell you what it is: OLD.

BTW, this isn't directed at you TornLabrum.

Disclaimer noted.

What I was looking at was Jose's year last year was epiphanal (if there is such a word). It was like somebody flipped a switch and he became unbeatable. That's why I said I wasn't willing to go as far as to say he'll be right there behind Contreras come the postseason. He has to become better than at least two of Garland, Garcia, and Buehrle. But as I also said, "Stranger things than that happened last year" with Jose.

Thome25
07-02-2006, 06:48 AM
Vazquez has given up 5 runs in 4.2 IP thus far as I make this post, and that means no matter what his ERA will be above 5 after another bad start. Are we ready to admit that is was a bad trade to get Vazquez for El Duque and Chris Young. With all of Anderson's struggles, we could use Young at CF on the Knights so he could come up if Anderson doesn't work out in the near future. El Duque could have been a useful arm in the 'pen just like he was during the last few games on last season and 2 appearances in the playoffs. I really think McCarthy would be a better option in the rotation at this point instead of Vazquez.

Thoughts?

Take it easy. Last season, The Sox had TWO starters struggling in the first half of the season. Contreras (and how did he turn out?) and El Duque wasn't exactly lights out in the first half or the entire season for that matter. With that said, how did our year turn out in 2005?

You are honestly saying that we would be better off with the oft-injured El Duque and an unproven prospect reather than a wealth of starting pitching?

I hope no one suggests trading Vasquez. Contreras was struggling in the 1st half last year and he was rumored to be going to the Marlins in a potential trade for AJ Burnett. THANK GOD KW didn't make that trade because Contreras has been lights-out since the 2nd half of last season. Vasquez certainly has the stuff and the potential to do a similar turnaround.

My thoughts? I don't agree with your analysis of the Vasquez trade. We were in a worse position in the first half last year and everything turned out fine. Get off the ledge.

Dan H
07-02-2006, 08:46 AM
I am not certainly not panicking not with a 53-27 record. But I am concerned that Vazquez can't seem to make on equality start, that Garland is not the Garland of '05, and Contreras has not been the same since coming off the disabled list. But then again if two of these three turn it around again, the Sox were even be better than they are now. I just have the feeling it won't be Vazquez.

CYGarland20
07-02-2006, 02:05 PM
I think calling Vazquez horrible is a little too much. He is struggling. Maybe he is tipping his pitches or something. I do know that he has potential and is probably the best #5 out there. The Sox still have a great rotation. You guys are really grasping for straws when you are calling for the head of of the #5 pitcher who is 8-4 with a 5.00 ERA. I wouldn't say he is tipping his pitches. The problem with Vazquez is he throws WAY too many pitches down the middle of the plate, and especially on 2 strike counts. In order for him to be successful he has to start making more quality pitches, and especially with 2 strikes

jongarlandlover
07-02-2006, 02:59 PM
As of Garland, I guess I'm in the minority, but I like him; he gives a lot more quality starts than unquality starts, and generally has even before last year. He gets bombed sometimes inflating his ERA and usually allows like 3 or 4 in 7, which is a quality start for this team as it gives this team a chance to win

hey, i'm with you on jon. his ERA is really inflated from his first two starts. i'm a huge jon fan and i'm getting a little tired of people saying he sucks. ::sigh::

anywho, javy's starting to worry me. he makes me nervous when he's out there, i never quite know what he'll give the team when he's out there. i hope coop can help him pull it together and he'll have a great second half. in coop i trust!