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Hawkeroo1980
06-30-2006, 09:28 AM
Is he untouchable right now? couldn't KW make a bold move to get him for the stretch run? I'm suprised I haven't heard his name thrown around yet.

Could you imagine Flash setting up Bobby?

Jenks

Thorton
Gordon

Brandon
Cotts

Riske
politte

Frater Perdurabo
06-30-2006, 10:00 AM
Now there's a guy I'd like to see pitching the eighth inning, or even the ninth if Jenks has pitched two games in a row!

Hawkeroo1980
06-30-2006, 10:01 AM
Now there's a guy I'd like to see pitching the eighth inning, or even the ninth if Jenks has pitched two games in a row!


Exactly....talk about beefing up your pen! Riske, Gordon, and Jenks

mercy

chaerulez
06-30-2006, 10:20 AM
The guy went to Philly because they would let him be a closer. I don't know if he'd be happy not closing.

Hawkeroo1980
06-30-2006, 10:27 AM
The guy went to Philly because they would let him be a closer. I don't know if he'd be happy not closing.


Good point--- but being traded to a legitiment contending team could be a nice perk.

Plus.... him coming in in the 8th pretty much WOULD be a closing situation because we have such a hole there now.

kraut83
06-30-2006, 10:32 AM
As bad as the National League has been, the Phillies should be in the wildcard hunt all season long. It would be great to get him back, but I'm not sure he's for sale.

WWE Champion
06-30-2006, 10:40 AM
He is for sale, and if Politte can't straighten things out soon, Gordon will be coming here in exchange for prospects.

RKMeibalane
06-30-2006, 10:45 AM
He is for sale, and if Politte can't straighten things out soon, Gordon will be coming here in exchange for prospects.

Source? Link?

Hawkeroo1980
06-30-2006, 10:53 AM
He is for sale, and if Politte can't straighten things out soon, Gordon will be coming here in exchange for prospects.

I wish you were right

WWE Champion
06-30-2006, 11:18 AM
Source? Link?
You'll just have to trust me for the time being.

chaerulez
06-30-2006, 11:25 AM
Good point--- but being traded to a legitiment contending team could be a nice perk.

Plus.... him coming in in the 8th pretty much WOULD be a closing situation because we have such a hole there now.

Let's put it this way though, he spurned a better team and a team with the better chance of making the playoffs just so he could close. He doesn't seem to be all that interested about winning, just closing.

Hawkeroo1980
06-30-2006, 11:35 AM
Let's put it this way though, he spurned a better team and a team with the better chance of making the playoffs just so he could close. He doesn't seem to be all that interested about winning, just closing.

Didn't he get offered more money to be in philly?

Paulwny
06-30-2006, 12:16 PM
[quote=Hawkeroo1980]Didn't he get offered more money to be in philly?[/quote

Phillies were the only team, money being equal, to offer a 3rd year to the contract.

TheOldRoman
06-30-2006, 12:23 PM
Plus.... him coming in in the 8th pretty much WOULD be a closing situation because we have such a hole there now.
:?:
Yeah, beacuse Riske, Thornton, and Cotts are all horrible. Trade em!
The 8th inning is not our problem. The ass end of the BP is our problem. We have exactly one hole.

HomeFish
06-30-2006, 12:27 PM
Let's put it this way though, he spurned a better team and a team with the better chance of making the playoffs just so he could close. He doesn't seem to be all that interested about winning, just closing.

However, earlier in his career he signed with the Yankees because he wanted to win, despite the fact that he was also being offered deals by several other teams (such as the White Sox) to be the closer.

Hawkeroo1980
06-30-2006, 12:35 PM
:?:
Yeah, beacuse Riske, Thornton, and Cotts are all horrible. Trade em!
The 8th inning is not our problem. The ass end of the BP is our problem. We have exactly one hole.

whhooooh.....you misunderstood me.

i love what thornton has done and the way riske has looked thus far. But.... if you add a guy like gordon........you solidify the lefty/right setup situation even more with thornton and gordon (ala cotts/politte last year) plus you stabilize the back end of the BP with guys like riske, cotts and McCarthy-- eliminating any role a struggling politte could mess up. the way cliff is throwing right now (not hitting 93 in 2 months) he should be reduced to the garbage time (ala Viscaino) where he might be able to settle down in because of the lack of pressure.

TheOldRoman
06-30-2006, 12:46 PM
whhooooh.....you misunderstood me.

i love what thornton has done and the way riske has looked thus far. But.... if you add a guy like gordon........you solidify the lefty/right setup situation even more with thornton and gordon (ala cotts/politte last year) plus you stabilize the back end of the BP with guys like riske, cotts and McCarthy-- eliminating any role a struggling politte could mess up. the way cliff is throwing right now (not hitting 93 in 2 months) he should be reduced to the garbage time (ala Viscaino) where he might be able to settle down in because of the lack of pressure.
1. Vizcaino wasn't reduced to garbage time. This is going to turn into another argument about how good he was, and I am not getting into that. Viz was in several high pressure situations last year.
2. Ozzie doesn't believe in garbage time pitchers. If you are on the roster, you play as often as possible. No pitchers will ever be on Ozzie's roster who only go when the team is up or down by 8.
3. Ozzie is doing with Cliff what he always did. He is doing what he did with Kevin Walker. He is putting him in a situation to fail, so he sends a message to Kenny. Ozzie is going to showcase Cliff to say to Kenny "I can't win with him, get me another arm." Unless Politte turns it around in his next two appearances, he will be gone.

DaleJRFan
06-30-2006, 01:12 PM
Ozzie is doing with Cliff what he always did. He is doing what he did with Kevin Walker. He is putting him in a situation to fail, so he sends a message to Kenny. Ozzie is going to showcase Cliff to say to Kenny "I can't win with him, get me another arm." Unless Politte turns it around in his next two appearances, he will be gone.

DING DING!!! Today's winning is... TheOldRoman!

TDog
06-30-2006, 01:12 PM
When Gordon pitched for the Sox he had some bad outings, including games where he lost leads on home runs. A home run to Garry Matthews in particular stands out. In 2003, he lost 6 games and as a reliever pitched less than 80 innings. He was offered more money to pitch for the Yankees and was up and down there. His ERA was better with the Yankees, but ERAs don't include inherited runners who score.

There are people around here who would trade Garland or Vazquez for Gordon. Obviously that isn't going to happen. If the Sox were to pick up Gordon, they wouldn't be giving up much. And unless the Phillies are looking to cut payroll, a trade isn't happening.

Lip Man 1
06-30-2006, 02:04 PM
Roman (for perhaps the first time ever) makes a rational point. Ozzie is quoted in a Joe Cowley story as saying that Cliff..."better show me something..."

If that's not the writing on the wall, then what is?

Lip

gobears1987
06-30-2006, 02:06 PM
He is for sale, and if Politte can't straighten things out soon, Gordon will be coming here in exchange for prospects.But then my fantasy team loses it's best closer.

Fantasy concerns aside, I hope that KW gets the Flash.

34 Inch Stick
06-30-2006, 03:08 PM
There are several players in the Phillie bullpen who I would like and who probably would be available. Rhodes would be a lower cost addition and might be just as good in the type of role we would need him.

TheOldRoman
06-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Roman (for perhaps the first time ever) makes a rational point. Ozzie is quoted in a Joe Cowley story as saying that Cliff..."better show me something..."

If that's not the writing on the wall, then what is?

Lip
:rolleyes:
I'm still waiting for your first rational point.

Lip Man 1
06-30-2006, 08:13 PM
Then you missed thousands of them while you were ranting.

:cool:

Lip

balke
06-30-2006, 08:31 PM
Sox didn't want to pay him then, I don't think they want to pay him now. He's having a great season but I think that he's not likely. I remember he left on good terms saying he wanted to either be paid or to close, the Yankees paid him to be set-up man. Now he closes. You never know though.

Tragg
06-30-2006, 10:15 PM
If we wanted Gordon, we should have signed him in the offseason.
Nothing is terribly surprising about our pen; Hermanson was out in the offseason, Politte had a great year last year, but can't count on that every year.
As it is, our pen isn't that bad. Jenks, Cotts, McCarthy, Riske, Thornton are pitching well. That's pretty darn good.
Philly will want pitching...we don't have any to give except maybe some staff arms in AA that they probably won't want.

SOXSINCE'70
07-01-2006, 09:28 AM
:?:
We have exactly one hole.

:pollite:
"Aw,c'mon guys,have a heart.Anyone can have a bad year".:puking:

Soxfanspcu11
07-02-2006, 05:23 AM
1. Vizcaino wasn't reduced to garbage time. This is going to turn into another argument about how good he was, and I am not getting into that. Viz was in several high pressure situations last year.
2. Ozzie doesn't believe in garbage time pitchers. If you are on the roster, you play as often as possible. No pitchers will ever be on Ozzie's roster who only go when the team is up or down by 8.
3. Ozzie is doing with Cliff what he always did. He is doing what he did with Kevin Walker. He is putting him in a situation to fail, so he sends a message to Kenny. Ozzie is going to showcase Cliff to say to Kenny "I can't win with him, get me another arm." Unless Politte turns it around in his next two appearances, he will be gone.

Your right that Vizcaino wasn't "reduced" to garbage time last year, however, more often than not, he was the pitcher that Ozzie would put in the game when the Sox were either up or down by 5 runs. Viz's best and most effective contribution to the 2005 Sox was that he was an inning eater. Vizcaino in 2005 reminds me slightly of BMac this year (although Brandon is a much better pitcher).

And you are right when you say that Vizcaino was in several high pressure situations last year. However, the one "high pressure" situation that is forever burned in my mind about him is that game against Boston in July '05 in which he was able to get Manny out in front of a pitch and pop-up to Crede in foul territory. Of course, Joe dropped the ball, giving Manny a 2nd chance, and the very next pitch, Manny hits a bomb. That hit ended up being the difference in the game, IIRC. I'm not getting down on Viz, I'm happy with his contributions to the Sox last year, but he just didn't seem to have what it took in big time situations the way guys like Cotts, Cliff and Jenks did.

And speaking of Cliff, does anyone else think that the "problem" with him this year is that he just might be done?:?: I mean, comparing him in 2005 and in 2006 is like night and day. He has lost at least 5 mph on his fastball, and on top of that, it is completely straight. His fastball this year is reminding me of sped-up batting practice. On top of that, his breaking pitches are breaking, but he is completely tipping his pitches. Next time he pitches, watch him closely. Whenever he throws something off-speed, he slows up his entire delivery. I have season tickets out in the bleachers, row 11, and I can see it from there. If I can see that way out there, then I'm pretty sure that a pro ballplayer has no trouble picking it up.

And I think your right, Ozzie is "showcasing" Cliff. I really do like Cliff a lot, but I have a bad feeling about him now. I was hoping and praying that his trip to the DL would cure him and he would come back as the '05 Cliff. Granted he just got back, and maybe I am being a bit too harsh, but the scary thing is that he is pitching EXACTLY like how he was prior to his trip to the DL. It just looks like he has a combination of a pretty serious physical problem and an even more serious mental problem. Giving up that walk-off to Sanchez the other day was probably the worst thing that could have happened. After Ozzie shows that he has complete faith in him and puts him in a very tough situation, 1 crappy pitch turns everything around.

I hate sounding negative, and it hurts me to say this, but, I think we really need to seriously start questioning whether Cliff still has what it takes to pitch at the major league level.:(:

CallMeNuts
07-02-2006, 09:00 AM
Ozzie doesn't like it when his pitchers don't report injuries, instead trying to tough it out on their own. Marte did this lat year and Ozzie wanted him gone. This year, it's Cliff.

chaerulez
07-02-2006, 11:11 AM
However, earlier in his career he signed with the Yankees because he wanted to win, despite the fact that he was also being offered deals by several other teams (such as the White Sox) to be the closer.

If I remember correctly, the Sox wouldn't give him a promise that he'd be the full time closer, as they were still committed to Koch. Because of that and the overpayment of the Yankees (I believe they have him 2 years 10 million just to be a set up man), he left.