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WinningUgly!
02-10-2002, 11:24 PM
Would it be better for the franchise if Durham was dealt away now rather than later? Valentin could then be moved to 2b & the door would then be wide open for Crede at 3rd. This would also probably open up a roster spot for either Harris or Hummel.

Daver
02-10-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Would it be better for the franchise if Durham was dealt away now rather than later? Valentin could then be moved to 2b & the door would then be wide open for Crede at 3rd. This would also probably open up a roster spot for either Harris or Hummel.

Umm,no.If you are in a position to win a division you play the best possible at every position,not guys that have yet to prove what they can do at this level,that is why Lofton was signed.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

WinningUgly!
02-10-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by daver


Umm,no.If you are in a position to win a division you play the best possible at every position,not guys that have yet to prove what they can do at this level,that is why Lofton was signed.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

Best defensively or offensively? Wouldn't Crede be a huge defensive upgrade on Jose at 3rd?

Daver
02-10-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


Best defensively or offensively? Wouldn't Crede be a huge defensive upgrade on Jose at 3rd?

What has Crede proven that he can do at this level,compared to the known quantity you get from Jose?
I am not saying that this is the right way to go about it,but it is the safe way.

WinningUgly!
02-11-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by daver


What has Crede proven that he can do at this level,compared to the known quantity you get from Jose?
I am not saying that this is the right way to go about it,but it is the safe way.
I agree with you. It just seems like if Ray is going to eventually be dealt, right now would be the most logical time for it to happen. Jose would have a full ST to get 2B down & Durham's value will decrease once the season starts & the deadline approaches. I don't like the idea of him just walking away at the end of the season with the Sox getting nothing in return.

kermittheefrog
02-11-2002, 12:35 AM
I say as long as the CBA doesn't change just keep Durham and let him walk for a draft pick.

MattSharp
02-11-2002, 12:36 AM
If the Sox are not contenders at the deadline I say deal Durham for sure. Otherwise I don't think you can trade him cause hes a guuy you need for the playoffs.

rdivaldi
02-11-2002, 12:55 AM
Considering:

1)Ray is a free agent after this year,
2)He is coming off his worst statistical season since 1997, and
3)We have no proven commodity to replace him at 2B

All signs point to this being a very, very bad time to trade him. Wait until the trading deadline, then we'll see.

Chisox_cali
02-11-2002, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by rdivaldi


3)We have no proven commodity to replace him at 2B



I think we have two gents named Hummel and Harris that would disagree with you :smile: And if worse came to worse a man named Manos as well.

voodoochile
02-11-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


I think we have two gents named Hummel and Harris that would disagree with you :smile: And if worse came to worse a man named Manos as well.

Neither of those two is proven and there are no guarantees that they will excel at this level.

kermittheefrog
02-11-2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


I think we have two gents named Hummel and Harris that would disagree with you :smile: And if worse came to worse a man named Manos as well.

I like Hummel and Harris but neither one is the kind of guy I see being pushed from AA to the majors. I really think the talk of moving Manos to second is kind of silly. It's not someone you can just do overnight, if he were to move there he probably would have had to work on it over the winter. He'd have to adjust the ball coming off the bat differently covering first and turnign the double play among other things. It's a much tougher switch than short to third.

rdivaldi
02-11-2002, 01:16 AM
I think we have two gents named Hummel and Harris that would disagree with you And if worse came to worse a man named Manos as well.

As much as I'd like to believe that those 2 guys could step in right away, I highly doubt it. Hummel is still learning to play second if I'm not mistaken. He was a shortstop for most of his career. As for Harris, I'd be more assured if he was a full time second baseman. No one wants to give a straight answer to which position he is better suited to, CF or 2B.

Manos at second? He's only played 19 games there in his entire career. I'd be leary of that risky move.

bc2k
02-11-2002, 01:19 AM
Yes. I would like to have a proven veteran at 2b for the playoff run, but not when the veteren hurts the team. In the playoffs it is common knowledge that you need to play "small ball" and pitch well. So, Harris and his 54 stoles bases fit nicely into that "small ball" philosophy.

If the coaches at both levels feel harris is not big league ready, then I would not want him up in the big leagues. Not one of us can tell if Harris is ready or not.

That said, I would still like to have Durham off the team though. I would be content with Crede, Clayton, and Valentin. Although it goes without saying that I would much rather have Clayton traded than Ray-Ray. Now that I think of it, a second half 2001 Clayton would be better than anything Durham showed me in all of 2001. Man, I just realized how bad Durham is. At least with Clayton you get defense. Clayton upsets me by taking away Valentin's natural position, but if Royce was a 2b, I would be singing his praise over Durham. Wow!?

Chisox_cali
02-11-2002, 01:36 AM
I'm not saying they should come up now but they are the next people in line for Ray's job. Hopefully they'll work at heading towards being proven in AAA this year.Though I prefer Hummel over Harris. Which brings up another point if both start in AAA were will they play? If Hummel's at 2nd were would Harris be? He cant be in center if the brass are still pushing LTP at Center. Left than? Of course he could start at AA. I thought I heard someone, KW or JM say were they wanted Harris I just don't remember.

RedPinStripes
02-11-2002, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog



He played 2b in Milaukee because he was god aweful at SS.
I like Hummel and Harris but neither one is the kind of guy I see being pushed from AA to the majors. I really think the talk of moving Manos to second is kind of silly. It's not someone you can just do overnight, if he were to move there he probably would have had to work on it over the winter. He'd have to adjust the ball coming off the bat differently covering first and turnign the double play among other things. It's a much tougher switch than short to third.

He played 2b in Milaukee because he was god aweful at SS.

kermittheefrog
02-11-2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


He played 2b in Milaukee because he was god aweful at SS.

RPS I must say that sounds like a pretty dumb, uninformed comment which isn't like you. Manos played 18 games at second in 1994, his first full season in the majors and 1 one game there in 1992 when he appeared in just 4 games as a 22 year old. Once he established himself as a major leaguer he was a shortstop, no questions asked until last year. In 94 he was probably asked to play some second so that he could show the team exactly what he can do, as rookies are sometimes asked to do what's best for the team rather than what they are best at, like Rowand playing center. For comparison, Jose has 900 career games at short. It's been 7 seasons since Jose saw time at second and he has more career games in center (24), than second (19). I'll say it again, the idea of moving Jose to second is silly.

I think the Sox should keep Durham and let him walk for a draft pick but if they plan on trading him even if they are in contention they should just deal him now so Hummel has more time to establish himself at the major league level.

RedPinStripes
02-11-2002, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


RPS I must say that sounds like a pretty dumb, uninformed comment which isn't like you. Manos played 18 games at second in 1994, his first full season in the majors and 1 one game there in 1992 when he appeared in just 4 games as a 22 year old. Once he established himself as a major leaguer he was a shortstop, no questions asked until last year. In 94 he was probably asked to play some second so that he could show the team exactly what he can do, as rookies are sometimes asked to do what's best for the team rather than what they are best at, like Rowand playing center. For comparison, Jose has 900 career games at short. It's been 7 seasons since Jose saw time at second and he has more career games in center (24), than second (19). I'll say it again, the idea of moving Jose to second is silly.

I think the Sox should keep Durham and let him walk for a draft pick but if they plan on trading him even if they are in contention they should just deal him now so Hummel has more time to establish himself at the major league level.


Dumb? uninformed? Come on now, I'm in a good mood for once at this time of night.

Well, I don't have any numbers in front of me, but wasn't he playing 2nd for the brewers when we traded for him? I thought he spent more time at 2b.

voodoochile
02-11-2002, 01:09 PM
Yes. I would like to have a proven veteran at 2b for the playoff run, but not when the veteren hurts the team. In the playoffs it is common knowledge that you need to play "small ball" and pitch well. So, Harris and his 54 stoles bases fit nicely into that "small ball" philosophy.

If the coaches at both levels feel harris is not big league ready, then I would not want him up in the big leagues. Not one of us can tell if Harris is ready or not.

That said, I would still like to have Durham off the team though. I would be content with Crede, Clayton, and Valentin. Although it goes without saying that I would much rather have Clayton traded than Ray-Ray. Now that I think of it, a second half 2001 Clayton would be better than anything Durham showed me in all of 2001. Man, I just realized how bad Durham is. At least with Clayton you get defense. Clayton upsets me by taking away Valentin's natural position, but if Royce was a 2b, I would be singing his praise over Durham. Wow!?

You would want Royce and his .310 career OBP at 2B instead of Ray and his career .350 OBP and you say this is because you think we will need to play little ball in the playoffs? You are basing your whole analysis on one season of numbers and they were the worst Ray has put up in years AND just happened to be the the most frustrating year of Ray's career, the only year he has been bounced around the lineup and the loss of tons of veteran talent both offensively and pitching...

You are the same guy who thinks Frank should be dumped...

:troll

hold2dibber
02-11-2002, 01:34 PM
I really do not understand the anti-Durham sentiment. He was pretty lousy last year, but the fact remains that he is one of the better 2B in the league. Frankly, I doubt that either Hummel or Harris will be as good as Ray, and while they both obviously earn much less, when you are in a good position to win the Division (as the Sox are this year), you shouldn't be dumping salary if it means less production. I see no reason to trade Ray now; if the Sox (God forbid) are out of it at the trade deadline, then maybe you deal him. Otherwise, you ride him out this season and either take the draft pick when he leaves, or, if the market is right and/or you don't have confidence that either Hummell or Harris is the answer, you try to re-sign him.

AsInWreck
02-11-2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I really think the talk of moving Manos to second is kind of silly. It's not someone you can just do overnight, if he were to move there he probably would have had to work on it over the winter. He'd have to adjust the ball coming off the bat differently covering first and turnign the double play among other things. It's a much tougher switch than short to third.

If i'm not mistaken, Jose played quite a bit of 2b
during his years w/ the brew crew- i don't know how well he played there, but i'm sure he played more 2b than 3b-i'd rather stick w/ ray, though--
edit--- oh i guess that's already been addressed-
K the F has his facts straight- the last time jose played 2nb was '94 in 18 games

bc2k
02-11-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


You would want Royce and his .310 career OBP at 2B instead of Ray and his career .350 OBP and you say this is because you think we will need to play little ball in the playoffs? You are basing your whole analysis on one season of numbers and they were the worst Ray has put up in years AND just happened to be the the most frustrating year of Ray's career, the only year he has been bounced around the lineup and the loss of tons of veteran talent both offensively and pitching...

You are the same guy who thinks Frank should be dumped...

Voodoochile, go back and read my post again. I never said I want Royce and his .310 career OBP over Durham. I said if Clayton performs in 2002 the way he did in the second half of 2001 then I would take him over Durham.

Secondly, the little ball comment was directed to the argument of why Harris should play over Durham--nothing to do with Clayton.
You gave an excuse to Ray's poor 2001 performance saying he was "bounced around the lineup". Well the reason he was moved was not because of Thomas' injury, but of Ray's own failure to succeed in the leadoff position.

voodoochile
02-11-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Voodoochile, go back and read my post again. I never said I want Royce and his .310 career OBP over Durham. I said if Clayton performs in 2002 the way he did in the second half of 2001 then I would take him over Durham.

Secondly, the little ball comment was directed to the argument of why Harris should play over Durham--nothing to do with Clayton.
You gave an excuse to Ray's poor 2001 performance saying he was "bounced around the lineup". Well the reason he was moved was not because of Thomas' injury, but of Ray's own failure to succeed in the leadoff position.

I see, so if a guy struggles for the first time in his career as a lead off hitter, he gets pushed back to third...

In fact the reason that they moved Ray to third is that many people believe Ray is a more natural 3rd slot hitter, but with Frank on the team, there was no reason to move the best lead-off option out of the top slot. Last year there was no Frank and JM in his desire to prove to the world he could shuffle the lineup until he screwed everything up did just that.

Look around the league - how many lead off hitters have a better career OBP than Ray? I'm not saying Ray is perfect, but he is the best option we've got (until the KL signing that is). You make it sound like he has nothing to offer the team, whereas I see his leadership, consistency, desire, speed, hustle, ability to hit for power and average while working to improve his batting eye so he can be more effective for the team's needs. Ray is a warrior. He never quits, he never gives in and he is always there for the team. Why would you want to get rid of a guy like that?

kermittheefrog
02-11-2002, 03:33 PM
Do you guys think I'm making these numbers up or something? Jose hasn't played second in a regular season game since 1994. He's got 19 career games at second according to Total Baseball and baseball-reference.com two tremendously reliable sources.

beausox
02-11-2002, 05:54 PM
I see things a little differently than the rest of you guys. Crede will not start the year at 3rd unless he has a incredible spring trainig. Durham won't be traded for several reasons.

1.No one needs a second baseman
2.He's a team leader and everyone on the team likes him (from what I've read)
3.We have no one else capable of putting up his numebrs at 2B
4.The team thinks he'll rebound hitting second or 7th in the order if the pressure of leading off is taken away.
5.The club hopes to resign him to a multi year deal (2 or 3 years) since he's only 31.

Bret Boone couldn't get an offer from anyone other than the Mariners, there is no team in baseball taht needs Durham. The club does not think Crede is ready to play on a contending team this year and the only thing that would change their midns is a huge spring showing. If Jose or Royce gets hurt he gets called up, otherwise he is a September call-up and will probably start next year. They don't want to rush him like they did with Caruso. Durham had a horirble year by his standards last year, taking him out of the lead-off role will relieve the pressure on him and hopefully he can rebound. He is a huge part of this team, when eh is going, the rest of the team goes. We need him and resigning him may not be a bad thing. Also, if he did get hurt, Graffanino would probably start at 2nd this year, not Harris, not Hummell, not Valentin. I'm sure Jose dosen't want to learn another position. Also Harris and Hummell are not ready. Durham is the best we have. If we trade him we get a prospect, if he we keep him we get his stats for a year, and a number one draft pick. This is not a hard decision to make.

hold2dibber
02-11-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by beausox
I see things a little differently than the rest of you guys. Crede will not start the year at 3rd unless he has a incredible spring trainig. Durham won't be traded for several reasons.

1.No one needs a second baseman
2.He's a team leader and everyone on the team likes him (from what I've read)
3.We have no one else capable of putting up his numebrs at 2B
4.The team thinks he'll rebound hitting second or 7th in the order if the pressure of leading off is taken away.
5.The club hopes to resign him to a multi year deal (2 or 3 years) since he's only 31.

Bret Boone couldn't get an offer from anyone other than the Mariners, there is no team in baseball taht needs Durham. The club does not think Crede is ready to play on a contending team this year and the only thing that would change their midns is a huge spring showing. If Jose or Royce gets hurt he gets called up, otherwise he is a September call-up and will probably start next year. They don't want to rush him like they did with Caruso. Durham had a horirble year by his standards last year, taking him out of the lead-off role will relieve the pressure on him and hopefully he can rebound. He is a huge part of this team, when eh is going, the rest of the team goes. We need him and resigning him may not be a bad thing. Also, if he did get hurt, Graffanino would probably start at 2nd this year, not Harris, not Hummell, not Valentin. I'm sure Jose dosen't want to learn another position. Also Harris and Hummell are not ready. Durham is the best we have. If we trade him we get a prospect, if he we keep him we get his stats for a year, and a number one draft pick. This is not a hard decision to make.

I couldn't have said it better myself (in fact, I tried (above) and failed miserably)).

guillen4life13
02-11-2002, 07:58 PM
Ray will end up hitting 2nd, although this is my fantasy lineup for next year. criticize it all you want, and i'll either agree or disagree. I have projected #'s as well

CF Lofton .295, 3 HR's, 60 RBI 30 SB GG?
SS Valentin .260, 25 HR's, 70 RBI 20 SB
2B Durham .285, 20 HR's, 75 RBI 30 SB
DH Thomas .330, 48 HR's, 140 RBI 2 SB MVP?
RF Ordonez .310, 35 HR's, 120 RBI 30 SB MVP?
1B Konerko .297, 37 HR's, 110 RBI 1 SB
LF Lee .290, 30 HR's, 90 RBI 20 SB
C Alomar .245, 10 HR's, 60 RBI 1 SB
3B Crede .280, 20 HR's, 70 RBI 10 SB GG?

I might be a bit lofty with the numbers, but let's wait til the season starts. I truly think Lofton is still capable of the above numbers, as is Ray, Frank, Magglio, and all of the others there. Those numbers are capable (Crede is a ? tho, cuz i don't know whether he can do 10 SB's, or more/less) of these players.

IMO, Lofton can go back to .300. I think Lee, Konerko, and Durham are capable of .300, but probably won't achieve that. They'll come close.

I think that Crede and Lofton are capable of Gold Gloves, as i've shown by their names. Ordonez and Thomas will be MVP candidates if the team does well, which they probably will (i hope i ain't jinxing 'em).

Trade clayton to a team like Toronto for a prospect.

doublem23
02-11-2002, 08:49 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/valenjo03.shtml

Valentin has 19 games creditied to him at 2B....

Discuss amongst yourselves :smile:

thepaulbowski
02-11-2002, 09:17 PM
I think that Ray just had an off year (offensively) last year, but he never seems to come through when you need it (defensively). He can make the great plays when the bases are empty, but if you need him to turn a double play with the bags packed, watch out. I think he will have a better year offensively, but his liability seems to be his focus during crucial situations. Trading him probably won't solve anything, just make a bigger hole in the infield.

FarWestChicago
02-11-2002, 09:22 PM
Welcome to WSI, Bowski! :gulp:

doublem23
02-11-2002, 09:24 PM
Ok, I'll throw in my two cents... I think that trading Ray now is a bad move. I understand the frustration this board has with Ray and his sometimes airheaded (and fire hydrant-like) defensive work, but there aren't many more second basemen who you can say are clearly better than Ray. To think of it, off the top of my head, only Robbie Alomar is that much better than Ray-Ray.

That, and the Sox don't have anyone ready to play second everyday except for like Liu Rodriguez. I don't see him as being the starting 2B on a divison championship-caliber baseball team.

If Ray wants to leave next year because his contract is up, that's fine. Hopefully by then KW can either find a decent short-term replacement until Hummell and Harris are ready, or maybe one will have a monster season in the minors.

BTW, Welcome to WSI, thepaulbowski.

czalgosz
02-11-2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Ray will end up hitting 2nd, although this is my fantasy lineup for next year. criticize it all you want, and i'll either agree or disagree. I have projected #'s as well

CF Lofton .295, 3 HR's, 60 RBI 30 SB GG?
SS Valentin .260, 25 HR's, 70 RBI 20 SB
2B Durham .285, 20 HR's, 75 RBI 30 SB
DH Thomas .330, 48 HR's, 140 RBI 2 SB MVP?
RF Ordonez .310, 35 HR's, 120 RBI 30 SB MVP?
1B Konerko .297, 37 HR's, 110 RBI 1 SB
LF Lee .290, 30 HR's, 90 RBI 20 SB
C Alomar .245, 10 HR's, 60 RBI 1 SB
3B Crede .280, 20 HR's, 70 RBI 10 SB GG?

I might be a bit lofty with the numbers, but let's wait til the season starts. I truly think Lofton is still capable of the above numbers, as is Ray, Frank, Magglio, and all of the others there. Those numbers are capable (Crede is a ? tho, cuz i don't know whether he can do 10 SB's, or more/less) of these players.

IMO, Lofton can go back to .300. I think Lee, Konerko, and Durham are capable of .300, but probably won't achieve that. They'll come close.

I think that Crede and Lofton are capable of Gold Gloves, as i've shown by their names. Ordonez and Thomas will be MVP candidates if the team does well, which they probably will (i hope i ain't jinxing 'em).

Trade clayton to a team like Toronto for a prospect.

Criticisms -

1. Three lefties at the top of the order, and then 6 consecutive righties. This is bad management.

2. All the speedy guys at one end of the lineup, and then a bunch of slow guys. This is not aesthetically pleasing.

3. Weird projections - 7 guys with more than 20 homers? Ray Durham with 30 stolen bases?

Other than that, I do appreciate the optimism, which is in short supply around here.

Daver
02-11-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

Other than that, I do appreciate the optimism, which is in short supply around here.

I have plenty of optimism.

I am optimistic on the upcoming tournement fishing season(bought a new fish finder)

I am optimistic on the upcoming turkey season(bought a laser site for my bow)

I am optimistic on the NASCAR season(Kyle Petty hired a new team manager)

And yet you say I lack optmism?


:redneck

Huisj
02-11-2002, 09:45 PM
Also, I bet Lofton hits more than 3 homers. His home run totals have gone way up from what they used to be--he hit 14 last year, and 15 the year before that. As for Thomas, I think he'll be good, but not quite that good. I'm thinking more like .320, 35-40 homers. And Ordonez won't steal 30 bases, because pitchers and catchers will pay more attention to him than they did last year when he just suprised everyone in order to steal bases. He's still a smart baserunner, so he'll get some, but pitchers and catchers are smart too. And Crede won't hit .280; somewhere around .260-.270 would be just fine for him if he can get normal playing time and hit 15-20 homers at the bottom of the lineup. But the question remains, will he get playing time at all?

And, sorry, but I gotta agree with others on batting Valentin 6th and Durham second. It just makes more sense to shuffle things up a bit instead of lumping all the lefties together.

bc2k
02-11-2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I see, so if a guy struggles for the first time in his career as a lead off hitter, he gets pushed back to third...

In fact the reason that they moved Ray to third is that many people believe Ray is a more natural 3rd slot hitter, but with Frank on the team, there was no reason to move the best lead-off option out of the top slot. Last year there was no Frank and JM in his desire to prove to the world he could shuffle the lineup until he screwed everything up did just that.

Look around the league - how many lead off hitters have a better career OBP than Ray? I'm not saying Ray is perfect, but he is the best option we've got (until the KL signing that is). You make it sound like he has nothing to offer the team, whereas I see his leadership, consistency, desire, speed, hustle, ability to hit for power and average while working to improve his batting eye so he can be more effective for the team's needs. Ray is a warrior. He never quits, he never gives in and he is always there for the team. Why would you want to get rid of a guy like that?

I don't care what any man did for the sox in the past. Don't get me wrong, I respect their contributions but we cannot give free passes to players based on their history. Sooner or later every player loses his skills. Maybe there aren't any lead off hitters with a better career OBP than Ray. Does that mean Durham will be the best 2b in 2002? No, of course not. I will give Durham a standing ovation for all his accomplishments in a sox uniform, but its only reasonable to look for an upgrade.

You stated above, "...leadership, consistency, desire, speed, hustle, ability to hit for power and average...". Consistency? Ability to hit for average? Speed is good when you take advantage of it. When you don't steel bags, that means you're underachieving in that area especially with the speed advantage.

I will agree with you in Durham's leadership, desire, and an overall good guy to teammates.

Daver
02-11-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


I don't care what any man did for the sox in the past. Don't get me wrong, I respect their contributions but we cannot give free passes to players based on their history. Sooner or later every player loses his skills. Maybe there aren't any lead off hitters with a better career OBP than Ray. Does that mean Durham will be the best 2b in 2002? No, of course not. I will give Durham a standing ovation for all his accomplishments in a sox uniform, but its only reasonable to look for an upgrade.

You stated above, "...leadership, consistency, desire, speed, hustle, ability to hit for power and average...". Consistency? Ability to hit for average? Speed is good when you take advantage of it. When you don't steel bags, that means you're underachieving in that area especially with the speed advantage.

I will agree with you in Durham's leadership, desire, and an overall good guy to teammates.

The point plain and simple,in words I hope you can understand,is that there is not a player of Ray's caliber available to replace him.Say what you want,he is one of the top 5 second baseman in the A.L.so what are you going to trade him for,and who are you going to replace him with?I would like to see what plan you have for that,cause I think you have none.

doublem23
02-11-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


I don't care what any man did for the sox in the past. Don't get me wrong, I respect their contributions but we cannot give free passes to players based on their history. Sooner or later every player loses his skills. Maybe there aren't any lead off hitters with a better career OBP than Ray. Does that mean Durham will be the best 2b in 2002? No, of course not. I will give Durham a standing ovation for all his accomplishments in a sox uniform, but its only reasonable to look for an upgrade.

You stated above, "...leadership, consistency, desire, speed, hustle, ability to hit for power and average...". Consistency? Ability to hit for average? Speed is good when you take advantage of it. When you don't steel bags, that means you're underachieving in that area especially with the speed advantage.

I will agree with you in Durham's leadership, desire, and an overall good guy to teammates.

Whatever, but if the Sox trade him, you lose all right to whine about the guy the Sox replace him with when you realize Ray was better than his replacement. :angry:

bc2k
02-11-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by daver


The point plain and simple,in words I hope you can understand,is that there is not a player of Ray's caliber available to replace him.Say what you want,he is one of the top 5 second baseman in the A.L.so what are you going to trade him for,and who are you going to replace him with?I would like to see what plan you have for that,cause I think you have none.

Honestly daver, I don't have a plan for an upgrade at 2b. I have never seen Harris or even Hummel play so I'm not going to say they're the answer. Although I will say I can't imagine them being worse than Durham. Sure we are the division favorites. But most of us agree that we will not get to the world series in 2002. So give the H&H boys a chance to get their "rookie mistakes" out of the way in 2002 so we are stronger at 2b by 2003 which is our world series season.

bc2k
02-11-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


Whatever, but if the Sox trade him, you lose all right to whine about the guy the Sox replace him with when you realize Ray was better than his replacement. :angry:

I accept that doublem23. I would hope you bring up this post if I rip on Durham's replacement. Just wondering, are you a big fan of Ray Durham, doublem23?

doublem23
02-11-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Although I will say I can't imagine them being worse than Durham.

Are you insane!!!

Like him or not, Durham is one of the better second basemen in the game! There are only a few who are clearly better than Ray, and here you go and say that two kids who have never played in the majors are better than Ray?!?!?

Give me a ****ing break! :angry:

doublem23
02-11-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


I accept that doublem23. I would hope you bring up this post if I rip on Durham's replacement. Just wondering, are you a big fan of Ray Durham, doublem23?

No, I'm not a big fan of Ray, but I've come to accept the fact that he's our best bet at 2B. I don't like him, but I know that if we dump him, whoever we stick in his place more than likely be worse unless his name is Robbie Alomar.

Daver
02-11-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Honestly daver, I don't have a plan for an upgrade at 2b. I have never seen Harris or even Hummel play so I'm not going to say they're the answer. Although I will say I can't imagine them being worse than Durham. Sure we are the division favorites. But most of us agree that we will not get to the world series in 2002. So give the H&H boys a chance to get their "rookie mistakes" out of the way in 2002 so we are stronger at 2b by 2003 which is our world series season.

If the Sox take the division,which I think they will,there is nothing to say that they can't succeed in the post season.The D'backs are a prime example of that.Only a fool would NOTfeild the best team possible when you have a chance to make the post season.The smarter move would be to play Ray all year,and let him file for free agency,he will not find much of a market and the Sox would get compensated in the draft,given that the current system is not upended in the CBA negotiations.

bc2k
02-11-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by daver


If the Sox take the division,which I think they will,there is nothing to say that they can't succeed in the post season.The D'backs are a prime example of that.Only a fool would NOTfeild the best team possible when you have a chance to make the post season.The smarter move would be to play Ray all year,and let him file for free agency,he will not find much of a market and the Sox would get compensated in the draft,given that the current system is not upended in the CBA negotiations.

Daver, do the sox get a compensation pick if they do not offer Durham a contract after this season? Or do the sox have to offer him a contract and Durham doesn't accept it to get a draft pick?

Daver
02-11-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Daver, do the sox get a compensation pick if they do not offer Durham a contract after this season? Or do the sox have to offer him a contract and Durham doesn't accept it to get a draft pick?

They get a pick for losing him to FA.

bc2k
02-11-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by daver


They get a pick for losing him to FA.

Do they have to offer him a contract?

kermittheefrog
02-11-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Daver, do the sox get a compensation pick if they do not offer Durham a contract after this season? Or do the sox have to offer him a contract and Durham doesn't accept it to get a draft pick?

They have to offer him arbitration but that's only a one year deal so he's almost guarenteed to decline because no big money free agent is looking for a one year deal, they want multiyear contracts.

Daver
02-11-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Do they have to offer him a contract?

I would have to check and see if he is arbitration eligible.If he is they would have to offer him arbitration.

kermittheefrog
02-12-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by daver


I would have to check and see if he is arbitration eligible.If he is they would have to offer him arbitration.

Every player can be offered arbitration at the end of a contract if they have at least 4 years of experience. Before that teams pick the player's salary.

bc2k
02-12-2002, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


They have to offer him arbitration but that's only a one year deal so he's almost guarenteed to decline because no big money free agent is looking for a one year deal, they want multiyear contracts.

Thank you Kermit for the information. I have made all the points about Durham I want, so I will end with this; Letting Durham play 2b in 2002 and getting a draft pick at the end of the season will be considered a smart move by me. I mean, hopefully Durham will have a much better 2002 being his contract year. Trading Durham (for what player(s) I have no idea) would also be a smart move being as one or both of the H&H boys can play. But I strongly disagree with offering Durham arbitration only to see him accept it and continue at 2b in 2003. Hopefully Durham will be so good in 2002 for the sox that he will want a long term deal like you said and snub our arbitration, thus landing us a draft pick. That is win/win for the White Sox. Taking a page from Bill O'Reilly, I will let you and Daver have the last word on this topic.
-bc2k

czalgosz
02-12-2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Thank you Kermit for the information. I have made all the points about Durham I want, so I will end with this; Letting Durham play 2b in 2002 and getting a draft pick at the end of the season will be considered a smart move by me. I mean, hopefully Durham will have a much better 2002 being his contract year. Trading Durham (for what player(s) I have no idea) would also be a smart move being as one or both of the H&H boys can play. But I strongly disagree with offering Durham arbitration only to see him accept it and continue at 2b in 2003. Hopefully Durham will be so good in 2002 for the sox that he will want a long term deal like you said and snub our arbitration, thus landing us a draft pick. That is win/win for the White Sox. Taking a page from Bill O'Reilly, I will let you and Daver have the last word on this topic.
-bc2k

If Durham stops swinging for the fences every at-bat, I will be much happier with his performance, but you guys are all correct - for all his faults, Durham is still one of the best second-basemen out there.

But a lot depends on how the Sox are doing in July. Everyone's assuming that the Sox will be in the pennant race this summer, but let's assume a worst-case scenario (being Sox fans, that's usually not a bad idea) - If the Sox are 10 games back on July 31, then it makes sense to trade Durham.

rdivaldi
02-12-2002, 12:01 PM
My main worry about Ray is how will he respond to hitting with runners on?

His last 4 year BA with runners on is worse than his last 4 year BA with no one on. However, to be my own devil's advocate, his last 4 year OBP is slightly higher with runners on than his last 4 year OBP with the bases empty.

What can we deduce from this? Ray obviously takes a lot more walks with runners on.

What does that mean for Ray this season? I have no freakin idea.

WinningUgly!
02-12-2002, 02:04 PM
It may be true that Durham is one of the best 2nd basemen in the game, but that's only because of how thin the position is through out the league. He's not at the Alomar/Kent level, he's the next tier down & by no means is he alone there. There are several 2nd basemen in MLB that are at the "Ray Durham level" or better...Edgardo Alfonzo, Roberto Alomar, Marlon Anderson, Jay Bell, Craig Biggio, Bret Boone, Luis Castillo, Marcus Giles, Mark Grudzielanek, Damian Jackson, Adam Kennedy, Jeff Kent, Alfonso Soriano, Jose Vidro, Fernando Vina, etc.

I'm not necessarily in favor of trading Ray. I just don't think that the reason to keep him could possibly be because he is one of the "best" in the game at his position. I'll buy the team leader & good for team chemistry reasons, though.

Huisj
02-12-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
It may be true that Durham is one of the best 2nd basemen in the game, but that's only because of how thin the position is through out the league. He's not at the Alomar/Kent level, he's the next tier down & by no means is he alone there. There are several 2nd basemen in MLB that are at the "Ray Durham level" or better...Edgardo Alfonzo, Roberto Alomar, Marlon Anderson, Jay Bell, Craig Biggio, Bret Boone, Luis Castillo, Marcus Giles, Mark Grudzielanek, Damian Jackson, Adam Kennedy, Jeff Kent, Alfonso Soriano, Jose Vidro, Fernando Vina, etc.

I'm not necessarily in favor of trading Ray. I just don't think that the reason to keep him could possibly be because he is one of the "best" in the game at his position. I'll buy the team leader & good for team chemistry reasons, though.

Alfonzo: .243-17-49, .725 OPS He had a terrible year compared to his career numbers
Anderson: .293-11-61, .758 OPS. Not bad, but not many walks at all, not much power.
Bell: .248-14-36, .749 OPS. Lousy stats, on the downside of his career.
Biggio: .292-20-70, .838 OPS. Good player, on par with career stats.
Castillo: .263-2-45, .685 OPS. No power, low average, a bit better than last year suggests though.
Giles: .262-9-31, .769 OPS (68 games). Not bad, but still not super.
Grudzielanek: .271-13-55, .711 OPS. Alarmingly low walks, probably isn't any better than these numbers.
Jackson: .241-4-38, .660 OPS. This is unnacceptable for an everyday player, and suprise, he is expected to be a backup this year.
Kennedy: .270-6-40, .690 OPS. His walk numbers are quite low too. He needs a breakout year to still be considered as a good player.
Kent: .298-22-106, .877 OPS. A bit down from his huge year, but still really, really good.
Soriano: .268-18-73, .736 OPS. Tons of SB, needs to walk more, but on the verge of being a pretty good player.
Vidro: .391-15-59, .856 OPS. Another really solid season.
Vina: .303-9-56, .775 OPS. pretty good, but doesn't walk much either (though his BA makes up for some of that.

I didn't feel like looking up Alomar's or Boone's stats, because everyone knows they were way above anyone else last year (although Boone was way over his head). Now here are Durham's stats from last year: .267-20-65, .804 OPS. His OPS is lower than only Biggio's, Kent's, and Vidro's, and he had a ton more SB than any of those three. Also, despite everyone's complaints about his lack of walking, he walked more than a lot of the guys on the list. I really don't think you can compare the guys like Kennedy, Castillo, Grudzielanek, Bell, or maybe even Alphonso (he'll be playing 3rd next year anyway), and especially not to Jackson. Durham is probably the 5th or 6th best second baseball in the majors right now, even with his "sub-par" season (his OPS last year was actually higher than his career mark).

The Sox should not trade Durham right now. It would be stupid.