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View Full Version : Not Turning Double Plays = Higher team ERA?


Frater Perdurabo
06-24-2006, 02:59 PM
This is not pants-pissing or dark-clouding, just merely an observation supported by facts. The Sox are 26th in the MLB in turning double plays. (Houston is first, incidentally).

JMHO, but it seemed last year that whenever an opposing leadoff hitter got aboad via a hit or walk, the subsequent ground ball almost always resulted in a double play. It's almost like the DP was automatic. This year, they seem to get the out at second, but the batter just beats the throw to first. It seems that this might be the big reason why the Sox team ERA is higher this year compared to 2005.

Has anyone else noticed this?

getonbckthr
06-24-2006, 03:07 PM
Not dark clouding at all just a good observation.

Jjav829
06-24-2006, 04:03 PM
This could be another thread alone, but I think that not hitting the cutoff man is almost as big of a problem. Double plays are crapshoots. They're not a given and not always easy to turn. But hitting the cutoff man is a fundamental thing and the team has been failing to do it recently. Anderson has been the worst at this, but we even saw Dye fail to do it today.

Ol' No. 2
06-24-2006, 05:30 PM
This could be another thread alone, but I think that not hitting the cutoff man is almost as big of a problem. Double plays are crapshoots. They're not a given and not always easy to turn. But hitting the cutoff man is a fundamental thing and the team has been failing to do it recently. Anderson has been the worst at this, but we even saw Dye fail to do it today.Dye didn't miss the cutoff man. PK let it go through.

Jjav829
06-24-2006, 05:59 PM
Dye didn't miss the cutoff man. PK let it go through.

Did he? Well, ignore that then. Like I said in the postgame thread, I watched most of the game at the gym and didn't exactly have a good angle to see everything so I figured Dye missed PK. It's still been a problem recently.

Ol' No. 2
06-24-2006, 06:03 PM
Did he? Well, ignore that then. Like I said in the postgame thread, I watched most of the game at the gym and didn't exactly have a good angle to see everything so I figured Dye missed PK. It's still been a problem recently.PK has been part of the problem. On both plays where Anderson and Mackowiak missed the cutoff man earlier this month, PK was the cutoff and wasn't where he was supposed to be.

Frater Perdurabo
06-24-2006, 06:11 PM
Double plays are crapshoots. They're not a given and not always easy to turn.

If doube plays are crapshoots, then the Sox were incredibly lucky last season, because it seems that whenever they needed one, they turned it. Any ground ball with a runner on first seemed to result in a double play. I know they can't be assumed, but the Sox were the best in the business at it last year.

This year, maybe the "law of averages" is catching up with the Sox? Couldn't there be more rational explanations, though? Like, for instance, perhaps Uribe's not firing the ball to first as quickly as he should on the 4-6-3? Or, perhaps Iguchi hasn't been as sharp in feeding Uribe? Maybe their timing is off? Perhaps it's only my perception, but it seems like their double-play turning ability seemed to tail off a bit after the defensive meltdown against the Cubs. Maybe Uribe's been more tentative since then?

:dunno:

jabrch
06-24-2006, 07:37 PM
More double plays are obviously better...but I can't complain much about how not having the DPs effected us in June so far.

Frater Perdurabo
06-24-2006, 08:05 PM
More double plays are obviously better...but I can't complain much about how not having the DPs effected us in June so far.
Yes. This year's good offense is covering for the fact that the Sox aren't quite as effective defensively - especially turning double plays - as they were last year.

But can you imagine just how much more dominant this team would be if they were turning double plays at a rate similar to last year?
:o:

spiffie
06-25-2006, 01:53 AM
Did he? Well, ignore that then. Like I said in the postgame thread, I watched most of the game at the gym and didn't exactly have a good angle to see everything so I figured Dye missed PK. It's still been a problem recently.
It's still part of a bigger problem regarding outfield defense. It seems like they have been having issues with stopping runners from getting that extra base. The only flaw right now in Anderson out in CF is that he will throw pretty much everything to home, even if the runner if halfway down the 3rd base line when he fields it. They could be much more efficient about not letting teams take that extra base.

Frater Perdurabo
06-25-2006, 07:23 PM
Tonight's first inning evidenced yet another instance of the Sox failing to turn what last year would have been a routine double play. This contributed to the Astros scoring two runs.

I'm glad that so far the Sox have been able to overcome their failure to execute what last season were routine double plays. But how much better would this team be - and how much better might their record be - if their infielders were turning the double plays that they turned in 2005?

Trav
06-25-2006, 07:53 PM
Tonight's first inning evidenced yet another instance of the Sox failing to turn what last year would have been a routine double play. This contributed to the Astros scoring two runs.

I'm glad that so far the Sox have been able to overcome their failure to execute what last season were routine double plays. But how much better would this team be - and how much better might their record be - if their infielders were turning the double plays that they turned in 2005?
According to Morgan, they play deeper than most. Did they play that deep last year?

Frater Perdurabo
06-25-2006, 08:28 PM
According to Morgan, they play deeper than most. Did they play that deep last year?

I haven't seen enough games in person to answer either way. TV cameras typically don't show defensive alignments before or as the pitch is thrown. And I haven't figured out how to get my XM radio to pick up spy satellite camera views of the Cell.
:D:

soxruleEP
06-25-2006, 09:02 PM
It's still part of a bigger problem regarding outfield defense. It seems like they have been having issues with stopping runners from getting that extra base. The only flaw right now in Anderson out in CF is that he will throw pretty much everything to home, even if the runner if halfway down the 3rd base line when he fields it. They could be much more efficient about not letting teams take that extra base.

There has been a significant dropoff in outfield defense this season, as I am sure everyone knows. Anderson might get a few balls that Rowand would not, but his lack of savy offsets that. And RM is NOT a center fielder. he is good enough to be a fill-in, but not a regular.

Until BA gets his head out of his butt--e.g. quits running into or nearly running into the corner outfields and thinks about where he is going to throw the ball ahead of time--this is the way the defense is going to be.

Luckily, the offense can overcome this most of the time.

Frater Perdurabo
06-25-2006, 09:27 PM
There has been a significant dropoff in outfield defense this season, as I am sure everyone knows. Anderson might get a few balls that Rowand would not, but his lack of savy offsets that. And RM is NOT a center fielder. he is good enough to be a fill-in, but not a regular.

Until BA gets his head out of his butt--e.g. quits running into or nearly running into the corner outfields and thinks about where he is going to throw the ball ahead of time--this is the way the defense is going to be.

Luckily, the offense can overcome this most of the time.

No offense intended, but I hope you just forgot to put this entire post (besides the last sentence and the Rob Mackowiak comment) in teal. As numerous threads have demonstrated, thorugh both expert observation by those who have done significant scouting (like Randar68) and/or played professional baseball (like ondafarm), and through statistical analysis, Brian Anderson is demonstrably a superior center fielder compared to Aaron Rowand.

Anderson covers far more ground with his long, gazelle-like strides (Chris Singleton's words, not mine), plays shallow and catches what other CFs would allow to fall for singles, gets great reads and positions himself very well to get back quickly and turns would-be extra-base hits into outs, and in fact makes 12% of the team's putouts, far more than any other CF. Furthermore, according to Baseball Prospectus, Anderson has been playing CF defense better than any other CF in the game, and for right now, among the best in the history of major league baseball.

Without question he's the best defensive CF in the game today and deserves the Gold Glove.

Frater Perdurabo
06-25-2006, 10:19 PM
How about that! Jenks uses one pitch to induce a double play with a runner on third to take out the Astros in the top of the 10th! That's what we need to see more often!
:bandance: