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View Full Version : Will Ichiro be a HOFer?


chisoxfanatic
06-24-2006, 02:40 AM
With a career batting average of .334, 1245 hits, 213 base thefts (to 58 times being caught--78.6%), 26 GIDP's, a cannon for an arm and quality fielding, I'd say the only thing holding Ichiro back would be the late start (in terms of his age) in his MLB career.

Nellie_Fox
06-24-2006, 02:42 AM
Personally, I think Ichiro qualifies under the Koufax exemption. The period of brilliance may be short, but overwhelming.

Banix12
06-24-2006, 02:59 AM
I personally think he should. He probably needs a few more years of high level play though to solidify a position amongst the voters.

QCIASOXFAN
06-24-2006, 03:19 AM
If he gets a few more 200 hit seasons he would almost have to go in I would think.

KRS1
06-24-2006, 03:42 AM
I for one think he is a sure thing for the HOF. The whole bridging the gap between nations, introducing foreign fans into the MLB, not to mention how damn good he was and is.

Timmy D's
06-24-2006, 04:19 AM
He undoubtedly deserves it IMHO. One of those players worth the price of admission just to watch them individually play the game.mple, if I'm sittin around bored, and Sox arent playin', nor are any enemy's of, I'll flip the game he's playin' in on the dish and watch him for a while.

StockdaleForVeep
06-24-2006, 04:21 AM
Definately

first ballot....id say no, i think there would be an issue with him being foreign and with the sports writers. I dont have the news offhand but was aparicio first ballot or did he have to be on the list for a while before he made it in?

Tragg
06-24-2006, 07:36 AM
What Ichiro has done for 5 years, Tony Gwynn did for 15+ years.
He's got to do what he's doing for at least another 5 years.

Zisk77
06-24-2006, 08:16 AM
Ichiro has done it for more than 5 years its just been in Japan. He'll be first ballot HOF. His brilliance won't be punished because he didn't do it here just like negro league players never played in MLB but are in the hall (I know not the same circumstance but sports writers will understand ... Jay Mariotti ... nevermind - no chance for Ichiro :wink: ).

mike detroit
06-24-2006, 08:20 AM
a very good question. personally, I agree with some others that he needs to do it for longer. he's had some great performances, but not overwhelming enough to make it to the hall, minus consistancy

fquaye149
06-24-2006, 09:23 AM
What Ichiro has done for 5 years, Tony Gwynn did for 15+ years.
He's got to do what he's doing for at least another 5 years.

wait, what? Tony Gwynn is one of the best pure hitters ever. That's like saying "What Frank did from 1990-2000, Babe Ruth did for 20 years. He needs fifteen years of incredible productivity to be considered".

I'm not necessarily convinced Ichiro is a hall of famer right now, but he certainly has had five incredible years and will likely continue to. But even if his career ended now, if you consider how consistent his five years here are with his career in Japan, I think you'd be able to make a very very strong case for hall of fame.

caulfield12
06-24-2006, 09:45 AM
Koufax and Puckett come to mind as players with a period of brilliance but shortened careers.

If Thomas died in a plane crash (ala Roberto Clemente) in 1997 or 1998, he would be one of the most revered players in history. Well, minus the surliness and reputation for me-first stats.

Unfortunately, the injuries have taken their toll...he's not in Ryne Sandberg or Dale Murphy territory yet, but he's a shell of his former self physically. Albert Belle also comes to mind, he was a monster (on and off the field) before injuries cut short his career, same with Juan Gonzalez.

With Palmeiro, Sosa and McGwire all under serious doubts for the Hall of Fame, it's going to be interesting. No way McGriff makes it. Are they going to vote in McGwire but not the other two? Personally, I think all three shouldn't be admitted...but you do that, you might as well throw out every statistic from the 90's, including Bonds' records, and start over.

Griffey and Thomas will go down as the greatest of their generation, when all is said and done.

And Ichiro was the greatest pure hitter of his time, and his career in Japan also has to be taken into consideration as part of his body of work, so to speak.

SOXfnNlansing
06-24-2006, 09:49 AM
yes on HOF

buehrle4cy05
06-24-2006, 10:40 AM
Definetly. Ichiro is by far the best pure hitter we have seen since Tony Gwynn. He will go into the HOF on the first ballot as the first Japanese player inducted.

RKMeibalane
06-24-2006, 10:48 AM
Yes. There's nothing he can't do on the baseball field.

SoxFanPrope
06-24-2006, 10:49 AM
I for one think he is a sure thing for the HOF. The whole bridging the gap between nations, introducing foreign fans into the MLB, not to mention how damn good he was and is.
I think this is the best point I've read on it yet. Ichiro was not the first Japanese player to make it in the MLB, but he certainly made a name for himself and has sustained it better than what Nomo did.
I was just looking up his info, he's only 32 years old. He's on pace, again, to have over 200 hits. Here is what I really wonder: In terms of how long it took, would he be the fastest to hit 2000? Again, he'll be 34-35 when he might hit 2000, but it would have been done in 8-9 seasons in the bigs. That has to be up there right?

Not sure if he is a first-ballot HOF'er right now, but I'd say he'll get in. If, and again if, he gets 2,000-2,500 hits, I think he'll be a first ballot guy.

StockdaleForVeep
06-24-2006, 11:03 AM
I think this is the best point I've read on it yet. Ichiro was not the first Japanese player to make it in the MLB, but he certainly made a name for himself and has sustained it better than what Nomo did.
I was just looking up his info, he's only 32 years old. He's on pace, again, to have over 200 hits. Here is what I really wonder: In terms of how long it took, would he be the fastest to hit 2000? Again, he'll be 34-35 when he might hit 2000, but it would have been done in 8-9 seasons in the bigs. That has to be up there right?

Not sure if he is a first-ballot HOF'er right now, but I'd say he'll get in. If, and again if, he gets 2,000-2,500 hits, I think he'll be a first ballot guy.

He's not the first but currently he is the best player to ever come from Japan, Unless you wanna make an argument for Nomo(he's had good years and bad, plus how many can no hit in colorado)

Who was the first btw, Irabu?

DSpivack
06-24-2006, 11:06 AM
He's not the first but currently he is the best player to ever come from Japan, Unless you wanna make an argument for Nomo(he's had good years and bad, plus how many can no hit in colorado)

Who was the first btw, Irabu?

There was some guy who played briefly in the 1960s, I forget his name and am too lazy to look it up.

SoxFanPrope
06-24-2006, 11:06 AM
He's not the first but currently he is the best player to ever come from Japan, Unless you wanna make an argument for Nomo(he's had good years and bad, plus how many can no hit in colorado)

Who was the first btw, Irabu?
According to ask.com, Hideo Nomo was the first Japanese player to come to the MLB, when he signed with the Dodgers in 1995.

Another think-piece question: Without the success of Ichiro, would Iguchi be wearing a White Sox jersey right now?

caulfield12
06-24-2006, 11:07 AM
The correct answer of Masanori Murakami in 1964-1965, SF Giants

SoxFanPrope
06-24-2006, 11:08 AM
The correct answer of Masanori Murakami in 1964-1965, SF Giants
Last time I'll ever ask ask.com to answer I question that I ask. Bastards.

StockdaleForVeep
06-24-2006, 11:09 AM
According to ask.com, Hideo Nomo was the first Japanese player to come to the MLB, when he signed with the Dodgers in 1995.

Another think-piece question: Without the success of Ichiro, would Iguchi be wearing a White Sox jersey right now?

Sox needed a 2b, so yes

mike detroit
06-24-2006, 11:50 AM
interesting. so do you guys view frank thomas as sure hall of famer?

StockdaleForVeep
06-24-2006, 11:53 AM
interesting. so do you guys view frank thomas as sure hall of famer?

How many players have a career 300+ average after nearly 20 seasons and not made the hall?

mike detroit
06-24-2006, 12:01 PM
How many players have a career 300+ average after nearly 20 seasons and not made the hall?

I'm not questioning that. it's just that he seems like kind of a reggie miller type player that might get overlooked for awhile, despite deserving to be in there. basically someone that played great for a long string of underachieving teams.

goofymsfan
06-24-2006, 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxFanPrope
According to ask.com, Hideo Nomo was the first Japanese player to come to the MLB, when he signed with the Dodgers in 1995.

Another think-piece question: Without the success of Ichiro, would Iguchi be wearing a White Sox jersey right now?

Originally Posted by StockdaleForVeep

Sox needed a 2b, so yes

I disagree. Without the success of Ichiro, would teams continue to look in the Japanese Leagues for players? For a long time, the Japanese leagues were considered inferior. Ichiro made people take notice that there were players over there that could compete at the MLB level. Granted, if it wasn't Ichiro, it would have been someone else, but how many years longer would it have taken.

StockdaleForVeep
06-24-2006, 12:21 PM
I disagree. Without the success of Ichiro, would teams continue to look in the Japanese Leagues for players? For a long time, the Japanese leagues were considered inferior. Ichiro made people take notice that there were players over there that could compete at the MLB level. Granted, if it wasn't Ichiro, it would have been someone else, but how many years longer would it have taken.

I dunno, Nomo showed that japanese talent could pitch and dominate some of the MLB offense, and the whole odd affair between steinbrenner and barrell ass irabu. I think the fans percieved Japan as inferior but the scouts knew what was there, and sometimes guys come back from Japan even better

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00009AOAW.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

goofymsfan
06-24-2006, 12:28 PM
I dunno, Nomo showed that japanese talent could pitch and dominate some of the MLB offense, and the whole odd affair between steinbrenner and barrell ass irabu. I think the fans percieved Japan as inferior but the scouts knew what was there, and sometimes guys come back from Japan even better



Pitch yes, but Ichiro is a position player. Many didn't think he would be able to hit .300 for an entire season let alone be able to handle the 162 game season. Rob Dibble bet that there would be no way he would be able to hit .300 over here his first year. Rob had to go running in a speedo. He was just one example of the thinking of sure failure that was "sure to happen" to Ichiro. He stunned people by hitting .350 and having 242 hits. Not to mention the runners he stunned when he threw them out.

SoxFanPrope
06-24-2006, 12:36 PM
Pitch yes, but Ichiro is a position player. Many didn't think he would be able to hit .300 for an entire season let alone be able to handle the 162 game season. Rob Dibble bet that there would be no way he would be able to hit .300 over here his first year. Rob had to go running in a speedo. He was just one example of the thinking of sure failure that was "sure to happen" to Ichiro. He stunned people by hitting .350 and having 242 hits. Not to mention the runners he stunned when he threw them out.
I thought he had to get Ichiro tattooed on his ass?

goofymsfan
06-24-2006, 12:46 PM
I thought he had to get Ichiro tattooed on his ass?
I think that may have been part of the bet as well. I think he was supposed to run naked, but the concession was made that a speedo would be good enough. I don't remember the entire bet though.

Did some digging and found this article from ESPN (http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick/s/2001/1004/1259399.html)

RKMeibalane
06-24-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm not questioning that. it's just that he seems like kind of a reggie miller type player that might get overlooked for awhile, despite deserving to be in there. basically someone that played great for a long string of underachieving teams.

I think most people agree that Reggie Miller is a HOF'er in his own right, so I'm not worried about Frank getting in. The Big Hurt is a HOF'er, no questions asked.

TheKittle
06-24-2006, 03:11 PM
What Ichiro has done for 5 years, Tony Gwynn did for 15+ years.
He's got to do what he's doing for at least another 5 years.


Did you know that Gwynn only had five, 200 hit seasons? Ichiro had five in a row and is well on his way to a sixth straight. The most hits Gwynn ever had in a season was 220. Ichiro has at least two seasons, rookie season and when he broke the hits record, when he had more than 220.

There is no doubt Gwynn is a great hitter and a HOF. But to say he's done things for 15 season is laughable. And if somebody brings up the fact that Gwynn was injuried a lot, well I would say if he wasn't so damn fat, maybe he wouldn't have spent so much time on the DL.

Frater Perdurabo
06-24-2006, 03:19 PM
Answer: yes.

thomas35forever
06-24-2006, 06:35 PM
I'll say he'll get in because he was like the first Japanese player to have a huge Far East impact on the game. Without him, Tadahito Iguchi might not be playing second base for us or we never would've known Shingo.

RKMeibalane
06-24-2006, 06:39 PM
I'll say he'll get in because he was like the first Japanese player to have a huge Far East impact on the game. Without him, Tadahito Iguchi might not be playing second base for us or we never would've known Shingo.

And without Shingo, we would never have had one of the worst threads in WSI history: Jeremy's rant. :cool:

TheKittle
06-24-2006, 08:15 PM
I'll say he'll get in because he was like the first Japanese player to have a huge Far East impact on the game. Without him, Tadahito Iguchi might not be playing second base for us or we never would've known Shingo.

Agreed about Ichrio helping Iggy. But if Ichiro was a bust, the White Sox still would have signed Shingo because many Japanese pitchers had made it in the majors. Nomo, Shiggy the former Angels and M's reliever, were productive pitchers in the mid to late 90's. That M's closer helped the M's win a couple divisions. So Shingo would still have gotten a chance.

1951Campbell
06-24-2006, 11:27 PM
Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 20 (103) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 65 (367) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 25.0 (453) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 128.5 (101) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

Plus only 5 years in? Sorry. He had the misfortune of not getting into MLB soon enough. Even Koufax had a considerably longer career.

goofymsfan
06-25-2006, 01:13 AM
Agreed about Ichrio helping Iggy. But if Ichiro was a bust, the White Sox still would have signed Shingo because many Japanese pitchers had made it in the majors. Nomo, Shiggy the former Angels and M's reliever, were productive pitchers in the mid to late 90's. That M's closer helped the M's win a couple divisions. So Shingo would still have gotten a chance.

The M's closer you are referring to was Kazu Sasaki. Again, the players you mentioned were all pitchers. Pitching in the Majors versus playing a position in the Majors are two different things. Pitchers don't play every day or close to every day of the 162 game season. The Japanese league is considerably shorter and many didn't feel that the Japanese position players would be able to perform at a high/consistant level on an every day basis. Ichiro proved that there were players in Japan that could play at a high level and consistantly over a 162 game season. The main reason the M's paid for the rights to even talk to Ichiro was due to the majority owner of the M's. Ichiro was his favorite player and he wanted him on the M's. Many people thought the M's were nuts to pay the $13 million just to have the right to talk to Ichiro and sign him to a contract. I hope that his years in Japan are considered along with his time in the MLB for consideration to the HOF when he does retire.

TheKittle
06-25-2006, 01:58 AM
The M's closer you are referring to was Kazu Sasaki. Again, the players you mentioned were all pitchers. Pitching in the Majors versus playing a position in the Majors are two different things. Pitchers don't play every day or close to every day of the 162 game season. The Japanese league is considerably shorter and many didn't feel that the Japanese position players would be able to perform at a high/consistant level on an every day basis. Ichiro proved that there were players in Japan that could play at a high level and consistantly over a 162 game season. The main reason the M's paid for the rights to even talk to Ichiro was due to the majority owner of the M's. Ichiro was his favorite player and he wanted him on the M's. Many people thought the M's were nuts to pay the $13 million just to have the right to talk to Ichiro and sign him to a contract. I hope that his years in Japan are considered along with his time in the MLB for consideration to the HOF when he does retire.

I think you missed the point of my post. Somebody mentioned that without Ichiro's success, the White Sox would not have signed Shingo. I just said that's not true because if Ichiro was a bust, there have been enough Japanese pitchers who have done well (Nomo, Kazu etc) in the majors, that the White Sox would still have signed Shingo.

If Ichiro gets 2000 hits in the majors, he should be a HOF.

fquaye149
06-25-2006, 03:44 AM
Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 20 (103) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 65 (367) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards): Batting - 25.0 (453) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 128.5 (101) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

Plus only 5 years in? Sorry. He had the misfortune of not getting into MLB soon enough. Even Koufax had a considerably longer career.

Baseball reference is a poor barometer. It doesn't take into consideration what he does relative to the rest of the league. Ichiro has been year in and year out one of the top 5 best hitters in baseball.

The Koufax comparisons are poor. A better comparison would be a player like Jackie Robinson (although, of course, those comparisons are also flawed BECAUSE OF COURSE NO UNJUST RULES WERE PREVENTING ICHIRO FROM PLAYING IN THE MLB, UNLIKE WITH ROBINSON)--that is, even if Robinson had only played 5 years in the majors, excelling, as he did, in those five years, we would consider that his five years were in keeping with a career of excellence in the negro leagues. Likewise, Ichiro has been a perennial all star these past five years. Considering he was the best player in Japan for years before that, It makes him a surefire hall of famer.

Of course all this is moot, because most likely Ichiro will continue to be similarly successful for about 5 more years before he finally starts to decline. That is just a guess, but it seems very likely. After 10 years of dominating the Batting Average category, I don't see how anyone can REALLY object even if he "did get here too late"

soxfanreggie
06-25-2006, 10:50 AM
While there was no barrier here preventing Ichiro from making the big leagues, those Japanese clubs OWN you. Remember how much the M's had to pay the Orix Blue Wave to get Ichiro. Ichiro is only 32, and I could see him playing for another 5-7 years at least.

A .335 career batting average, .360 current average. He plays 5-7 more years even with a .320 average and he's going to have an amazing career average.

He averages over 200 hits per year. That's in the tops in hits. Not only does he get a hit one every 3 at-bats, the man scores once every 6 at-bats, on a team like the Mariners. He plays for the Sox, I think he scores once every 5. He is also a great baserunner/good steals.

4 Gold Gloves in 5 years...simply great defense

2001 AL ROY and MVP...he has some major awards to his credit.

I am not a big fan of Ichiro, but I respect him and his abilities as a ball player. He plays the game how it should be played. He plays 3-5 more years like he has, and I don't think you can keep him out. He will go down as one of the best pure hitters ever and a dang good fielder to boot.

goofymsfan
06-25-2006, 11:35 AM
I think you missed the point of my post. Somebody mentioned that without Ichiro's success, the White Sox would not have signed Shingo. I just said that's not true because if Ichiro was a bust, there have been enough Japanese pitchers who have done well (Nomo, Kazu etc) in the majors, that the White Sox would still have signed Shingo.

If Ichiro gets 2000 hits in the majors, he should be a HOF.

From what I was reading, it was Iguchi that would not have been signed.

Jurr
06-25-2006, 12:38 PM
I agree with the sentiment that Ichiro was a trailblazer for not only Japanese players, but for many other countries as well, such as the Korean players. Hideo Nomo was a great pitcher early, but Ichiro's continued success has opened the eyes of many people to the fact that these players from the Far East can play some ball!

The numbers that Ichiro has put up also translates well to a HOF berth. Though he came onto the MLB scene later in his career, his hitting numbers are ridiculous.