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infohawk
06-22-2006, 10:16 AM
I didn't see this posted yet, but Cardinal pitching coach Dave Duncan was interviewed on the SCORE this morning about the beaning incident and called Ozzie a liar in that instance and tried to connect the "lie" to Ozzie's perceived wider troubles. It was really smarmy of Duncan. The crux is that Duncan believed Ozzie ordered the beaning and took exception to Ozzie's claim that Ozzie spoke to Duncan afterward to apologize. Duncan said that he was sick and tired of Ozzie getting himself into situations and lying about them to get out of trouble. Sounds like sour grapes on Duncan's part for the absolute beating the Cardinals have taken.

CashMan
06-22-2006, 10:20 AM
I heard it, and I was a little shocked. He sounded pissed.

AuroraSoxFan
06-22-2006, 10:20 AM
Ah, who cares. maybe if his cute little pitching staff hadn't given up 33 runs in 2 games he'd have something else to talk about. That guy should really worry about his own people before Oz or anyone else.

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 10:22 AM
Didn't hear the interview, but from what I'm reading here, it sure sounds like sour grapes. What does Duncan have to be "sick and tired" of? He doesn't have any regular involvement with Ozzie. He's probably pissed that his pitchers got smacked around, his son got beaned, and knows that there's no better time to pile on Ozzie.

MadetoOrta
06-22-2006, 10:22 AM
Who cares what he has to say? Let me guess, Duncan and LaRussa had no idea that the "Bash Brothers" were on 'roids. Talk about guys who need to shut their mouths. If Cindy Ponson doesn't throw at 2 PLAYERS - "it got away from me twice" - we're not talking about this. Fact is the Sox are a far superior team than St. Louis and without Pujols, the Cards are a bad club.

spawn
06-22-2006, 10:23 AM
Here's hoping that Ozzie says nothing about this. He needs to be out of the spotlight for a change.

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 10:25 AM
Here's hoping that Ozzie says nothing about this. He needs to be out of the spotlight for a change.

I was just thinking the same thing.

mccoydp
06-22-2006, 10:26 AM
If the Cardinals pitchers had not been throwing meatballs over the plate for the past couple of days (and getting slaughtered in the process), I'm sure his tune would be different...he has to deflect attention from the losses in some way, I guess.

whitesoxfan
06-22-2006, 10:26 AM
I'm hating the Cards more and more. These guys are a pathetic bunch of sore losers.

sullythered
06-22-2006, 10:30 AM
We hit Duncan's son. That's what he's pissed about. Anything else is just derivative of that.

Jjav829
06-22-2006, 10:30 AM
Duncan is probably just pissed that it was his son who was hit with the retaliation pitch.

DSpivack
06-22-2006, 10:31 AM
We hit Duncan's son. That's what he's pissed about. Anything else is just derivative of that.

I think that he is the pitching coach and that the Sox have scored 33 runs in two games pisses him off just as much as his son getting HBP.

TornLabrum
06-22-2006, 10:34 AM
I hope nobody beats me to this: My guess is that Duncan is upset about all the runs the Sox scored on his pitching staff and that his son was the one who got hit the other night.

spawn
06-22-2006, 10:34 AM
Maybe he should expend a little anger towards Ponson. If he doesn't plunk BA and Pablo, his boy doesn't get plunked. And I don't think Ozzie had to tell Riske to retaliate. Riske was sticking up for his teammates. It's something that doesn't even need to be discussed.

veeter
06-22-2006, 10:35 AM
All this because Tribune snyper and Sox hater Dave Van Dick misquoted Ozzie as saying he "called" Duncan to apologize, but Ozzie really said he "told" Duncan he was sorry. Dave exists to take cheap shots at the Sox and stir up controversy.

peeonwrigley
06-22-2006, 10:35 AM
Our guys were hit with high pitches. His son was hit in the ass. **** Duncan.

infohawk
06-22-2006, 10:38 AM
The latest development is that the guys on the SCORE, after replaying the quote, believe that Ozzie was misquoted in the paper. The difference is between "called" Duncan and "told" Duncan. The paper quoted Ozzie as "called" but the replay of the quote seemed to show that Ozzie said "told." If so, then there really is no dispute -- as Duncan did say that Ozzie approached him on the field before yesterday's game -- other than Duncan claiming that Ozzie is lying about not personally ordering the beaning. The bottom line is that irresponsible reporting is adding fuel to the fire.

miker
06-22-2006, 10:42 AM
The bottom line is that irresponsible reporting is adding fuel to the fire.
I can't believe that...:o:

oeo
06-22-2006, 10:42 AM
Duncan is probably just pissed that it was his son who was hit with the retaliation pitch.
Oh, waaaah. Cry me a river, if your son can't take a beaning (which I thought he took quite well), then he shouldn't be playing baseball. Two Sox got hit, and their daddies aren't whining about it.

The thing is, our guys keep getting beaned, no matter where we go. These pitchers are just throwing the ball at us for no reason, and if one pitcher throws two fastballs that hit consecutive hitters, of course they're going to react. I do not believe Ponson for one second when he says it wasn't on purpose. Actually, I think LaRussa's little hissy fit was just an act so no attention surrounded him.

TornLabrum
06-22-2006, 10:44 AM
The latest development is that the guys on the SCORE, after replaying the quote, believe that Ozzie was misquoted in the paper. The difference is between "called" Duncan and "told" Duncan. The paper quoted Ozzie as "called" but the replay of the quote seemed to show that Ozzie said "told." If so, then there really is no dispute -- as Duncan did say that Ozzie approached him on the field before yesterday's game -- other than Duncan claiming that Ozzie is lying about not personally ordering the beaning. The bottom line is that irresponsible reporting is adding fuel to the fire.
Irresponsible reporting about the Sox from the Tribune???? *GASP* I can't believe it!!!!!!!!

SoxFan78
06-22-2006, 10:51 AM
Hey Dave Duncan. Quit worrying about Ozzie and start worrying about how your pitching staff has let up 33 runs in two games.

champagne030
06-22-2006, 10:57 AM
Who cares what he has to say? Let me guess, Duncan and LaRussa had no idea that the "Bash Brothers" were on 'roids. Talk about guys who need to shut their mouths. If Cindy Ponson doesn't throw at 2 PLAYERS - "it got away from me twice" - we're not talking about this. Fact is the Sox are a far superior team than St. Louis and without Pujols, the Cards are a bad club.

Are you calling Ponson a ***?

infohawk
06-22-2006, 11:03 AM
I think that, overall, the reporting has just been atrocious. The poor reporting has spread and become a media feeding frenzy. Take a look at this article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3991624.html) in the Houston Chronicle. Here's the key section:

-- "Everything's fine," Guillen told the Chicago Tribune on Wednesday. "I talked to him. About shaking hands, I don't recall (Garner doing) that. The thing I was upset about was the roof. I was the manager of the ballclub, and when they talked about the roof, they were upset with me. I just asked what the rules were about the roof. He was a little upset with a couple of comments made about the roof, and he thought it was me."

Garner doesn't recall ripping the White Sox in the newspaper. A search of World Series coverage didn't turn up any such comments. --

First of all, the article doesn't state anywhere that Ozzie accused Garner of "ripping the White Sox in the newspaper." It could very well be the case that Ozzie heard directly from another person that Garner and the Astros were upset (possibly with him) at the White Sox about the roof situation and was just repeating what he'd heard. The media did report during the World Series about how the Astros were angry that MLB wouldn't let them close the roof, so we know that this was an issue. Inferring that Ozzie got the information from a newspaper, with no specific quote from Ozzie to that effect, sets Ozzie up to look like he's making things up.

I can't help but think that the media simply sees a juicy story and have decided to pile on, even if it means embellishing here and there.

champagne030
06-22-2006, 11:04 AM
The latest development is that the guys on the SCORE, after replaying the quote, believe that Ozzie was misquoted in the paper. The difference is between "called" Duncan and "told" Duncan. The paper quoted Ozzie as "called" but the replay of the quote seemed to show that Ozzie said "told." If so, then there really is no dispute -- as Duncan did say that Ozzie approached him on the field before yesterday's game -- other than Duncan claiming that Ozzie is lying about not personally ordering the beaning. The bottom line is that irresponsible reporting is adding fuel to the fire.

I didn't hear the interview, but I did read the Cubune today. The quote I actually had a hard time believing was that Ozzie didn't even know that it was Duncan's kid until after they hit him and his kids had to tell him who it was.

infohawk
06-22-2006, 11:08 AM
I didn't hear the interview, but I did read the Cubune today. The quote I actually had a hard time believing was that Ozzie didn't even know that it was Duncan's kid until after they hit him and his kids had to tell him who it was. Why is that hard to believe? I wouldn't have known it if Hawk and DJ didn't mention it during the broadcast. The Sox hardly ever face the Cardinals. Outside of the big names on the team, why would Ozzie know who's who? I'm just saying it's certainly not a stretch to think that he didn't know.

Chicken Dinner
06-22-2006, 11:10 AM
A but shot is not a beaning. In my opinion, it was perfect. :tongue:

hawkjt
06-22-2006, 11:14 AM
Van dyck has lost his fastball as a reporter.

He makes numerous mistakes and this is just another example. He is on the Sox beat and he kept referring to how the sox did not have to worry about sitting thome til Pittsburgh , not even looking at the schedule close enough to notice that they played cinncy on the road also.

He made that mistake several times. duh.

MVP
06-22-2006, 11:18 AM
Duncan should shut his mouth. It doesn't matter if his son got drilled. His son has no special priviledges just because he's the son of a coach.

1917
06-22-2006, 11:28 AM
WAH
:whiner:

harwar
06-22-2006, 11:34 AM
I was feeling kindly sympathetic toward some of the cards fans because we have been beating them so badly the past couple of days but now i'm changing course and i say light that kid up tonight and steal a base if you have a 10 run lead.

Bill Naharodny
06-22-2006, 11:46 AM
Just heard a replay of the interview on Murphy's show. Aside from the misquote by van Dyck, Duncan said something quite amazing, given his history. Mulligan said that the White Sox came in a little sensitive about getting hit, after the incidents in Texas. Duncan said the White Sox should expect they'll get hit by pitches because they're a team that is "out over the plate." Given that reality, he was disappointed that Ozzie, in his view, elected to retaliate.

Anyone remember who Oakland's pitching coach was when Canseco and McGwire were there and out "over the plate"? Anyone remember them getting hit? Anyone remember what the Oakland pitchers did in response?

This guy is a king-sized hypocrite.

Vernam
06-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Oh, waaaah. Cry me a river, if your son can't take a beaning (which I thought he took quite well), then he shouldn't be playing baseball. Two Sox got hit, and their daddies aren't whining about it.Let's hit the ****er again tonight. :cool:

Duncan has always been LaRussa's toady. Nothing more and nothing less. We're going to kick their asses again tonight, and I'll be completely shocked if the Cards leave town without Tony and Ozzie having words.

Just win, baby . . . Ever since AJ stole first against L'Anaheim, the national media have been intent on turning the Sox into some combination of the old the Oakland Raiders and the "Bad Boys" Pistons. Now the transformation is nearly complete (with some help from Ozzie).

Vernam

Trav
06-22-2006, 12:18 PM
Duncan should stop acting like such a ***.

MILTMAY5
06-22-2006, 12:36 PM
Our guys were hit with high pitches. His son was hit in the ass. **** Duncan.Exactly!! Other posters have refered to Duncan as having been "beaned", which is anything above the shoulders. He was hit on the ass - huge difference. **** Duncan and Showalter.

wilburaga
06-22-2006, 12:44 PM
When Duncan's kid got hit on the can, he just dropped his bat and ran to first like a pro. He must have learned that from his mother.

W

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 01:01 PM
Is there some kind of history between Duncan and Ozzie? I just heard pieces of the interview and Duncan is definitely taking the whole thing very personally. He talks about being sick of hearing Ozzie lie to cover his butt. What is Duncan talking about (aside from this current incident)?

champagne030
06-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Why is that hard to believe? I wouldn't have known it if Hawk and DJ didn't mention it during the broadcast. The Sox hardly ever face the Cardinals. Outside of the big names on the team, why would Ozzie know who's who? I'm just saying it's certainly not a stretch to think that he didn't know.

Hmmm, Hawk and DJ know, but the manager doesn't know who an opposing player is? They do have these little tools the advance scouts provide called, a scouting report. And the fact that in the same Cubune article he said he watched "this kid" grow up.

TDog
06-22-2006, 01:22 PM
We hit Duncan's son. That's what he's pissed about. Anything else is just derivative of that.

He's probably hasn't gotten over being fired by the Sox more than 20 years ago.

SOXPHILE
06-22-2006, 01:38 PM
Wait, is this THE same Dave Duncan who, along with Tony LaRussa, went down to the studio to get Jimmy Piersal & Harry Carey over some comments that they didn't like ? Oh yeah, I'm sure he knew NOTHING about the rampant cheating the "Bash Brothers" were doing in the 80's, right ? Go to hell, Duncan.

JUribe1989
06-22-2006, 01:41 PM
Daddy needs to protect his little boy. :D:

I bet Chris Duncan doesn't want any of this.

Realist
06-22-2006, 01:50 PM
If the Sox hit tonite like they did the last two nites, somebody should take Duncan's belt and shoelaces and keep him under 24 hour surveillance.

Law11
06-22-2006, 02:14 PM
Now this latest thing with him and Duncan is blowing up...
reported on 670 - Duncan was responding to a report that Ozzie called him
to apologize about hitting his son calling him a flat out liar that he never called. Only to find out that its typical misspeak that in ozzie's quote he never said he called him.

My question is is the media that loved him for his outspokeness starting to turn like sharks in wait.

Should ozzie just stop talking at this point.
It obvious in my mind that the media is waiting to pounce.
the same media that had loved him seems to be chging their tune to an extent.

if off the record now means as much as locked grand jury testimony than maybe he needs to stay clear of the media.

Even i was saying as i laughed last night that Ozzie shhhhh.
when talking about the gay community he metioned he was supportive,
he went to a WNBA game and madonna concert...

I just lost it laughing...
We all know its harmless but of course when you have your own daily national forum on ESPN it becomes national news.

samram
06-22-2006, 02:17 PM
The hell with Dave Duncan. The 33 runs his staff has given up should be of greater concern to him.

As for Mariotti, yes, Ozzie should just be quiet and pretend he doesn't exist.

peeonwrigley
06-22-2006, 02:25 PM
When Duncan's kid got hit on the can, he just dropped his bat and ran to first like a pro. He must have learned that from his mother.

W

:D: Brilliant.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 02:29 PM
Ozzie should keep doing what he's always done to get us back to the world series. If we wanted a quiet manager we woulda kept the buddah

pdimas
06-22-2006, 02:30 PM
We hit Duncan's son. That's what he's pissed about. Anything else is just derivative of that.

Yeah and we hit him in the ass to boot. Not between the shoulder blades. So poor little Duncan may have trouble sitting down for a few days big deal. If he was that pissed maybe he should be taking it out on Ponson. He's the one really at fault for getting his little boy beaned. I mean what the **** was he expecting? Someone had to get hit.

SoxFan78
06-22-2006, 02:31 PM
B & B said it best. Who cares if Dave Duncan hates ozzie??? You will only hear this story on the "Flagship" station.

Keep on keepin on Ozzie!

Jerko
06-22-2006, 02:32 PM
If I were Ozzie, I'd keep quiet..................when people WANT me to talk. No more press conferences, no more interviews, etc. Make it hard for them to do their job and maybe they'll appreciate the openness the Sox "enjoy" with the media. I'm sure there's MLB rules that prohibit this though.

jenn2080
06-22-2006, 02:33 PM
:bs: this whole thing is exhausting. they are just gonna beat the issue to death

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 02:34 PM
Is this thing with Duncan really "blowing up"? I mean, he's mad over what's been proven to be a misprint. Plus, I think that almost everyone who's heard Duncan has noted that he might be feeling a little protective of his son.

I have no real problem with Ozzie giving his opinion. I just would like him to choose his words a little more carefully.

WizardsofOzzie
06-22-2006, 02:40 PM
Many of the players have stated publically that they love the feel of the clubhouse and the atmosphere that Ozzie brings to the team. Why would we want to change such a thing. I mean, Ozzie does those little things that make his players happy and laugh, such as mocking Garland when he made a throwing error about a month or 2 ago.....Even Garland had to find that funny :smile:

QCIASOXFAN
06-22-2006, 02:40 PM
I wonder what good things he will have to say if we give them another double digit beating.

white sox bill
06-22-2006, 02:41 PM
Oz can talk, just take the high road. We are in a pennant race here and don't need the distractions. You can speak your mind and still come across as not being arrogant or insultive.

Irishsox1
06-22-2006, 02:42 PM
Ozzie should continue with what he has been doing and protect his players from the press. He is the lighting rod for the press, not the players and that's exactly what Ozzie wants and what the players want. I think the handling of Brian Anderson this year has been nothing short of brilliant. Just look what happened to Corey Patterson, a promising young player that never said a bad word, but was trashed in the papers, the same thing should happen to Anderson but the press is too busy going after Ozzie, giving Anderson time to get acclimated to the big leagues.

I don't want Ozzie to say any derogatory things about groups of people, but if he wants to attack Moronetti, then go right ahead. Call him a wimp, a baby, a coward or even better a bad writer. That guy has been attacking the White Sox for 16 years and now for once the White Sox fight back and everyone is uncomfortable with this. I say bring it on.

QCIASOXFAN
06-22-2006, 02:44 PM
:bs: this whole thing is exhausting. they are just gonna beat the issue to death That is what I am thinking, to bad this Grimsley circus did not happen this week!

rdwj
06-22-2006, 02:46 PM
I love Ozzie and his antics. I hope he doesn't change a thing other than removing a couple of words from his vocabulary.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2006, 02:51 PM
Should he keep quiet? No.

Should he engage his brain before starting his mouth? Absolutely.

ChiWavDave
06-22-2006, 02:54 PM
Everybody's been saying that Ozzie should keep on being Ozzie and he has a right to speak and blah blah blah. But what is happening is that these reporters are going in there with the intention of getting him to blow up and provide them with a juicy quote for the papers the next day. Either he's too stupid to realize that, or he's so in love with his own voice that he truly doesn't care. Everytime he blows up and acts like an idiot, (I don't see where its being PC to threaten to hurt or kill people etc. let alone equating homosexuals with child molesters) it reflects poorly on him, on the franchise, on the players and on us fans. They're baiting him, and he's taking it hook line and sinker. If he would shut up this would all go away...

And while I'm ranting regarding the events of the last 2 weeks let me throw a couple of more things out there to get them off my chest.

#1 The entire "thats just the way I am" or "just the way he is" argument, pisses me off more than anything. Like we as human beings have no capacity to learn from our mistakes, grow, evolve etc. Like we are stuck being the same retards (no offense to retards, PC Crowd) we were when we were 18 or 20. Hey why don't you try something different and see if you get a better reaction next time. Wow what a shock EVOLUTION...

#2 The whole I'm from Venezuela so what I'm saying is normal down there, or not an insult or etc. etc .etc. You've been in this country 25 years, you fully understand the language and the culture. This line of excuses is absolutely no different that Shammy Steroid Sosa claiming not to understand English. talk about being cowardly, I must have forgotten all the other Venezuelans over the years who everytime they open their mouth sound like an episode of the Latin Sopranos once the cameras are rolling..

What I would really rather be focusing on is sweeping the Cards and not the rest of this ****ing garbage. (To quote Ozzie!)

Dave

getonbckthr
06-22-2006, 03:28 PM
Oz can talk, just take the high road. We are in a pennant race here and don't need the distractions. You can speak your mind and still come across as not being arrogant or insultive.
Ozzie speaking his mind is not a distraction. What he is doing is taking all of the attention off his players and taking it on himself. Personally I think it would be hilarious if Ozzie called a press conference today in regards to the Duncan comments, then as soon as all of the media arrives simply say nothing stare at them for about 10-15 seconds then finish with have a nice day and leave.

MarySwiss
06-22-2006, 03:30 PM
Wait, is this THE same Dave Duncan who, along with Tony LaRussa, went down to the studio to get Jimmy Piersal & Harry Carey over some comments that they didn't like ? Oh yeah, I'm sure he knew NOTHING about the rampant cheating the "Bash Brothers" were doing in the 80's, right ? Go to hell, Duncan.
I remember that! Duncan has always been one of Tony's good little soldiers.

If I were his kid, I'd tell him in no uncertain terms to drop it. The kid acted a lot more mature about the whole thing than his daddy is.

rwschm_bull
06-22-2006, 03:30 PM
it's getting painful listening to the out-of-town sportsradio voices who don't know the background between Mariotti and the Sox, all the Mariotti bull**** over the years when he could go off on a diatribe against Jerry, the attendance, the ballpark, the announcers, ad nauseum.

:angry:

For Mariotti to go from reporting the news to making the news is classic scum-bucket reporting --

Ozzie would be wise to remember the saying about engaging in verbal spats with men who buy ink by the barrell... the ink-stained wretches (and their electronic pretty-boy partners-in-crime) just want to sell papers and advertising time...

salty99
06-22-2006, 03:32 PM
Duncan is a garbage

Unregistered
06-22-2006, 03:34 PM
Just reading the title of the thread - Yes, he should. Always. Please, Ozzie. Just keep us winning ballgames.

Minnie Me
06-22-2006, 03:36 PM
Should he keep quiet? No.

Should he engage his brain before starting his mouth? Absolutely.

I am praying that Ozzie learns to stiffle himself.

http://gallery.allinthefamilysit.com/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_archieauto.jpg (http://gallery.allinthefamilysit.com/displayimage.php?album=65&pos=0)

ChetChat
06-22-2006, 03:40 PM
I love Ozzie, but some one needs to give him a list of words NOT to say. That should do it. For crying out loud, how much political correctness do we have to have! Whatever happend to FREE SPEECH!
Last I checked we live in the U.S, not some communist country.

Jjav829
06-22-2006, 03:42 PM
Whether he should or not, he won't. You have to take the good with the bad. Kenny knew this when he hired Ozzie. He knew there would be some times when Ozzie was going to say things he shouldn't.

It's like Kenny said when he hired Ozzie,

"He's the perfect manager for this team," Williams continued. "If I was a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, I probably wouldn't hire him, but to be manager of this baseball team, he's perfect.

"It used to be allowable and acceptable in our game for a guy to not be afraid to laugh, or make comments to let somebody have it or let the public know, 'Here's what the hell I'm thinking,' " he says. "What's wrong with that? These are our sports, and if we get to the point that we sterilize our sports, I feel sorry for all of us."

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 03:43 PM
I love Ozzie, but some one needs to give him a list of words NOT to say. That should do it. For crying out loud, how much political correctness do we have to have! Whatever happend to FREE SPEECH!
Last I checked we live in the U.S, not some communist country.

Free speech has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

ChetChat
06-22-2006, 03:44 PM
Free speech has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.
My point is there has to be a limit. This is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

fuzzy_patters
06-22-2006, 03:46 PM
Free speech has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

No, it doesn't, but hyper-sensitivity of the semantics used by a non-native English speaker does. It is every big as biggoted to judge a non-native English speaker by the words he uses as it is to use derrogatory slurs.

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 03:47 PM
My point is there has to be a limit. This is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

OK, but that's entirely different than saying it's a freedom of speech issue. I was just making it clear that what Ozzie Guillen says has nothing to do with freedom of speech in this situation.

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 03:49 PM
No, it doesn't, but hyper-sensitivity of the semantics used by a non-native English speaker does. It is every big as biggoted to judge a non-native English speaker by the words he uses as it is to use derrogatory slurs.

There's a 600+ post thread on this topic. I have no desire to get back into it.

sageofthesox
06-22-2006, 03:51 PM
I love Ozzie, but some one needs to give him a list of words NOT to say. That should do it. For crying out loud, how much political correctness do we have to have! Whatever happend to FREE SPEECH!
Last I checked we live in the U.S, not some communist country.


Even Ozzie would agree with your statement. Here's a quote attributed to Ozzie in "The Wit and Wisdom of Ozzie Guillen" by Brett Ballantini:

"This is a great country. It has the right of free speech. That's why a lot of countries have problems, because (people) can't speak for themselves."

harwar
06-22-2006, 03:52 PM
I don't want Ozzie to change at all.
I like his style of managing and since i've been waiting 40 years for a championship and he was one of the ones responsible for that i say,Ozzie don't change at all.
Just don't talk to the media anymore. **** em.Let them go hunt somewhere else for a story.
Also,i think that we should hit the pitcher(due to Garcias' early inning troubles) when he comes up before there are any warnings issued and i feel that dave duncan owes Ozzie a public apology.

fuzzy_patters
06-22-2006, 03:53 PM
There's a 600+ post thread on this topic. I have no desire to get back into it.

That's funny. You have no desire to get back into it, but you responded to a post dealing with free speach issues relating to it.

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 03:57 PM
That's funny. You have no desire to get back into it, but you responded to a post dealing with free speach issues relating to it.
I was simply clarifying from a legal standpoint, this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. The law of the United States is clear on this.

EDIT: Here's why:

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution establishes freedom of speech in the USA. There are several major limitations on this freedom:
Only the government is prohibited from restricting speech. Private corporations are free to censor speech of their employees.
Freedom of speech is not absolute, even when government regulation or law is concerned. For example, freedom of speech does not give one the right to commit perjury. See the beginning of my essay on infotorts (http://www.rbs2.com/infotort.htm) for more examples.
Since 1977, the U.S. Supreme Court has retreated from protecting freedom of speech even for government employees, as explained in my separate essay (http://www.rbs2.com/afree2.htm). Fundamentally, an at-will employee in the USA can be terminated at any time, and for any reason or no reason at all and the courts will not intervene to protect the ex-employee from allegedly unfair treatment by the employer. Courts have repeatedly recognized that "any reason" includes a "morally wrong" or "morally reprehensible" reason. I have briefly discussed the history of at-will (http://www.rbs2.com/atwill.htm) employment in the USA and criticism of this doctrine in a separate essay.

The combination of:
no legal protection for freedom of speech of employees of for-profit and non-profit corporations and other non-governmental employers, and
the freedom of employers to terminate employment at any time, for any reasonmeans that employees in private industry have no legal rights to freedom of speech.
*Taken from a VERY long article that can be found at: Linky (http://www.rbs2.com/freespch.htm)

bludupree
06-22-2006, 04:08 PM
"It used to be allowable and acceptable in our game for a guy to not be afraid to laugh, or make comments to let somebody have it or let the public know, 'Here's what the hell I'm thinking,' " he says. "What's wrong with that? These are our sports, and if we get to the point that we sterilize our sports, I feel sorry for all of us."






That is a great quote.

I think Ozzie should try to take down Mariotti. He has caused a lot of damage to our organization over the years for his own personal gain. I don't care if he uses the word he used, and I think people are way too up tight with this PC stuff, but I would like to see him get a little more creative when tearing down Moronotti than just saying that word. We all know Ozzie has it in him.

Lip Man 1
06-22-2006, 04:14 PM
As an American Ozzie can say what he damn well pleases as long as he's prepared to accept any consequences that may come about because of it.

I may not agree with what someone says but they have the right to express their opinions as long as it doesn't violate the law.

That's the actual law folks, not the 'politically correct' law which is NOT a law.

Lip

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 04:17 PM
As an American Ozzie can say what he damn well pleases as long as he's prepared to accept any consequences that may come about because of it.

I may not agree with what someone says but they have the right to express their opinions as long as it doesn't violate the law.

That's the actual law folks, not the 'politically correct' law which is NOT a law.

Lip
Exactly. He has the right to say whatever the hell he wants, but he does not have the right to avoid any potential consequences involved with what he said. Apparently he was fined, but he could have been fired if they so chose. They didn't (which is the right decision IMO). None of that takes away from his right, but there can be some pretty bad consequences.

DickAllen72
06-22-2006, 04:19 PM
Duncan should stop acting like such a ***.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

DickAllen72
06-22-2006, 04:22 PM
All this because Tribune snyper and Sox hater Dave Van Dick misquoted Ozzie as saying he "called" Duncan to apologize, but Ozzie really said he "told" Duncan he was sorry. Dave exists to take cheap shots at the Sox and stir up controversy.

Dave Van Dyck certainly owes Ozzie and his readers an apology or a published "correction" and at the very least an explanation to Duncan for his misquote.

Let's see what kind of honor this "journalist" has.

Lip Man 1
06-22-2006, 04:24 PM
I don't think he even knows about it.

Lip

Bill Naharodny
06-22-2006, 04:33 PM
Wait, is this THE same Dave Duncan who, along with Tony LaRussa, went down to the studio to get Jimmy Piersal & Harry Carey over some comments that they didn't like ? Oh yeah, I'm sure he knew NOTHING about the rampant cheating the "Bash Brothers" were doing in the 80's, right ? Go to hell, Duncan.

I thought that was Jim Leyland.

Nonetheless, Duncan's a pud.

StillMissOzzie
06-22-2006, 05:42 PM
A but shot is not a beaning. In my opinion, it was perfect. :tongue:

THANK YOU! A "beaning" is a shot to the noggin, NOT simply any old HBP. I wish you other guys would refrain from saying "beaning" for an pitch that hit Duncan the younger in the ass.

And Duncan the elder, cry me a river. If you didn't think that somebody had it coming after Ponson hits two of our guys, then you are clueless as a pitching coach. Your son took a pitch in the ass that should have been for you!

SMO
:angry:

TornLabrum
06-22-2006, 05:44 PM
THANK YOU! A "beaning" is a shot to the noggin, NOT simply any old HBP. I wish you other guys would refrain from saying "beaning" for an pitch that hit Duncan the younger in the ass.

And Duncan the elder, cry me a river. If you didn't think that somebody had it coming after Ponson hits two of our guys, then you are clueless as a pitching coach. Your son took a pitch in the ass that should have been for you!

SMO
:angry:
I sould also add that neither of our guys were beaned the other night.

SBSoxFan
06-22-2006, 06:14 PM
Free speech has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

I disagree. Unfortunately, only one side is being muted. I'm not saying that I have no problem with Ozzie, as manager of my favorite baseball team, using certain words. However, all things being equal, if you want to live in a free country people have to be allowed to say things that I as an individual don't like or agree with. I also have the freedom to let them know that I didn't like or agree with what was said. Now there are governmental limits to that freedom, like falsely yelling "fire!" in a crowded public venue, but beyond that, who has the right to vilify another?

Did you see the movie American President? He said it a lot better than I.

JB98
06-22-2006, 06:17 PM
Oz can talk, just take the high road. We are in a pennant race here and don't need the distractions. You can speak your mind and still come across as not being arrogant or insultive.

I don't think this is a distraction at all. The media are all talking about Ozzie, ignoring the players entirely. The guys are just going about their business.

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 11:00 PM
I disagree. Unfortunately, only one side is being muted. I'm not saying that I have no problem with Ozzie, as manager of my favorite baseball team, using certain words. However, all things being equal, if you want to live in a free country people have to be allowed to say things that I as an individual don't like or agree with. I also have the freedom to let them know that I didn't like or agree with what was said. Now there are governmental limits to that freedom, like falsely yelling "fire!" in a crowded public venue, but beyond that, who has the right to vilify another?

Did you see the movie American President? He said it a lot better than I.
Re-read what I said and posted (b/c I think we are actually in agreement). It's not an issue because Ozzie has every right to say what he said. If the government were trying to stop him or punish him for what he said, then it would be an issue. But Ozzie has every right to express himself, but he also has to accept the consequences of his actions. He can and was punished for his words b/c freedom of speech does not apply (in general) to private businesses. That means a private business CAN fire or impose sanctions on its employees b/c of things they say or views they hold.

cws05champ
06-22-2006, 11:23 PM
The thing is, our guys keep getting beaned, no matter where we go. These pitchers are just throwing the ball at us for no reason, and if one pitcher throws two fastballs that hit consecutive hitters, of course they're going to react. I do not believe Ponson for one second when he says it wasn't on purpose. Actually, I think LaRussa's little hissy fit was just an act so no attention surrounded him.

C'mon now, LaRussa doe not put on "acts" like that. If you think that, you haven't seen him much before. IMHO i don't think Ponson hit either guy on purpose...the friggin bases were loaded for both guys. And did you see Ponson's reaction after it happened with the second guy? That being said, I have no problem with Riske/Ozzie retaliating even though Ponson may not have done it on purpose.

Brewski
06-22-2006, 11:49 PM
C'mon now, LaRussa doe not put on "acts" like that. If you think that, you haven't seen him much before. IMHO i don't think Ponson hit either guy on purpose...the friggin bases were loaded for both guys. And did you see Ponson's reaction after it happened with the second guy? That being said, I have no problem with Riske/Ozzie retaliating even though Ponson may not have done it on purpose.

I've been thinking about the same thing since it happened. Ponson threw his arms in the air after each HBP as if he had goofed up both times. Could it have been an act? Could the show Tony put on in the dugout and on the mound when he pulled Ponson been an act? The runs let in because of the HBP's were meaningless at the time it happened, because the game was long before decided, thus they don't prove anything.

The whole thing may have been planned as an act of intimidation with a built in cover story. It's not impossible. Or do you think Tony isn't capable of a devious act?

MadetoOrta
06-22-2006, 11:59 PM
Exactly. He has the right to say whatever the hell he wants, but he does not have the right to avoid any potential consequences involved with what he said. Apparently he was fined, but he could have been fired if they so chose. They didn't (which is the right decision IMO). None of that takes away from his right, but there can be some pretty bad consequences.

He could be fired for farting on the team bus. Personally, Ozzie should address all questions about this episode in Spanish. Watch all the writers mess up the language. "My Mexican friend said that in the Venezuelan dialect, Ozzie said ....." Can we please move on? We're the best team in the world, this is the best time to be a Sox fan and we're talking about that windsock?

spawn
06-23-2006, 01:26 PM
Ozzie's response regrding Duncan:


"If that call come from me, I guarantee you I'm not going to hit Duncan. He's in Triple-A now. You think I will hit someone not important. At 20-2, why would I hit a Triple-A player? I respect Tony and I respect [Duncan], what they did in the game, but they aren't bigger than me. When you say I'm lying, I think it's something where [Duncan] don't know me."

SBSoxFan
06-23-2006, 02:38 PM
Re-read what I said and posted (b/c I think we are actually in agreement). It's not an issue because Ozzie has every right to say what he said. If the government were trying to stop him or punish him for what he said, then it would be an issue. But Ozzie has every right to express himself, but he also has to accept the consequences of his actions. He can and was punished for his words b/c freedom of speech does not apply (in general) to private businesses. That means a private business CAN fire or impose sanctions on its employees b/c of things they say or views they hold.

ilsox7: I did reread your posts. I have no problem with some consequences since no freedom is absolute. I do have a problem with the "squeakiest wheel" getting to play judge, jury, and executioner. Also, I'm disappointed to read of how little that freedom is protected in private businesses. I would assume the intent is to keep things like Ozzie's situation from happening. However, I could also see it being overly restrictive. What if I bad-mouth my boss (from a professional standpoint?) and get fired? I would have no legal recourse? Heck, it happened here at Notre Dame that a football coach sued the school simply because he perceived that they thought he was too old to coach.

ilsox7
06-23-2006, 03:06 PM
ilsox7: I did reread your posts. I have no problem with some consequences since no freedom is absolute. I do have a problem with the "squeakiest wheel" getting to play judge, jury, and executioner. Also, I'm disappointed to read of how little that freedom is protected in private businesses. I would assume the intent is to keep things like Ozzie's situation from happening. However, I could also see it being overly restrictive. What if I bad-mouth my boss (from a professional standpoint?) and get fired? I would have no legal recourse? Heck, it happened here at Notre Dame that a football coach sued the school simply because he perceived that they thought he was too old to coach.

It would of course depend on the specific situation. However, keep in mind that many states are employment at-will, which allows an employer to fire an employee for absolutely no reason (generally assuming they are not a contract employee). But a lot of folks simply don't realize that in their jobs, they can be dismissed for doing nothing wrong.

In the case of private businesses, there aren't many restrictions at all. Obviously there are numerous exceptions, but private businesses have a lot of freedom to do as they please. Having said that, discrimination based on age, sex, race, etc generally fall under those exceptions. Hence, if that ND coach could prove age discrimination, he'd probably have a case.

SBSoxFan
06-23-2006, 06:52 PM
It would of course depend on the specific situation. However, keep in mind that many states are employment at-will, which allows an employer to fire an employee for absolutely no reason (generally assuming they are not a contract employee). But a lot of folks simply don't realize that in their jobs, they can be dismissed for doing nothing wrong.

In the case of private businesses, there aren't many restrictions at all. Obviously there are numerous exceptions, but private businesses have a lot of freedom to do as they please. Having said that, discrimination based on age, sex, race, etc generally fall under those exceptions. Hence, if that ND coach could prove age discrimination, he'd probably have a case.

How might one prove, for example, age discrimination? Or, playing devils advocate, let's say Ozzie got fired, and he sued claiming the only reason he got fired was because he doesn't like homosexuals. In either case, does the company have any onus to show contrary evidence? I would think in Ozzie's case, it would be hard to do, with him having won a world series and all. :D:

Jurr
06-23-2006, 07:51 PM
Can't believe that this is being blown up to be such a big deal. Chris Duncan, who I met last night at a Memphis establishment, didn't have a bad thing to say about the situation at all. He knew it was coming...it's part of the game.
He was just happy to get hit in the butt and not in the nugget.