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enurb
06-21-2006, 06:37 PM
How this plays out depends on how Mariotti handles it in his next column.

I know this much, the last thing Selig wants is to have gays picketing every stadium the White Sox play which could very well happen. It has been a major topic all afternoon on WEEI Boston and Ozzie is getting killed by both the hosts and the callers.

No offense intended, but who cares what the people in Boston think? They're probably still reeling from being swept out of the playoffs and from the horrible trade they made today.

Picketing? Surely, you jest.

WSox8404
06-21-2006, 06:38 PM
This is why I think Lip has a point - a polish person was slang for idiot even when I was growing up, and people used it all the time. So in my opinion Lip *has* experienced something very similar. All this talk about white males never being able to "relate" to a minorty really sort of chaps my hide.

See if a Ozzie called him a Polak, I wouldn't get offended at all. I know Jay isn't Polish but if he was and Ozzie called him that I wouldn't give a rats ass. And I am nearly 100% Polish. There are just more important things to get upset about in the world at this time then what a sports team manager says. I guarentee you that more people are going to tune into the news tonight across the counrty to see what happened with Ozzie then to see what is going on in Iraq which is MUCH more important than this will be anyday.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 06:38 PM
It doesn't matter if he was doing his job or not. It has to do with people that have their priorities screwed up. This reminds me an awful lot of all the people that tune it to watch all those stupid celebrity shows to see where Anjolina Jolie or whatever the hell her name is is going to have her baby. WHO CARES! Does this matter in ones life at all? No. So why should people care about what a baseball manager says. It has no effect one ones life.

I care. I care because I was once a little kid that idolzed Ozzie Guillen. I bet there are still kids out there that idolize him. He just basically told them that it is ok to call people that you don't like ****.

For the record (again), I (the out gay person here) have not called for Ozzie to be suspended. I am more upset with some of the posters here than with Ozzie. On the other hand, a lot of other posters have come out of the woodwork via pm and have been very supportive. Some have even told me that I have made them rethink things. See, I am not doing this in vain. I am an educator. Sometimes it spills over onto the board.

WSox8404
06-21-2006, 06:39 PM
See if a Ozzie called him a Polak, I wouldn't get offended at all. I know Jay isn't Polish but if he was and Ozzie called him that I wouldn't give a rats ass. And I am nearly 100% Polish. There are just more important things to get upset about in the world at this time then what a sports team manager says. I guarentee you that more people are going to tune into the news tonight across the counrty to see what happened with Ozzie then to see what is going on in Iraq which is MUCH more important than this will be anyday.

And don't get me wrong here. Should he have said it? No. I know that. But the way people get so upset about this amazes me. Absolutely unreal.

miker
06-21-2006, 06:39 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward
Sorry...I just had to add some levity.

Chicken Dinner
06-21-2006, 06:39 PM
And we wonder why this country has so many lawyers.....and now they even advertise on TV. God help us.

patbooyah
06-21-2006, 06:40 PM
I am an educator. Sometimes it spills over onto the board.

maybe you should spend less time labeling yourself. "dyke." "educator." what's next?

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 06:41 PM
And we wonder why this country has so many lawyers.....and now they even advertise on TV. God help us.

Huh?

WSox8404
06-21-2006, 06:42 PM
I care. I care because I was once a little kid that idolzed Ozzie Guillen. I bet there are still kids out there that idolize him. He just basically told them that it is ok to call people that you don't like ****.

For the record (again), I (the out gay person here) have not called for Ozzie to be suspended. I am more upset with some of the posters here than with Ozzie. On the other hand, a lot of other posters have come out of the woodwork via pm and have been very supportive. Some have even told me that I have made them rethink things. See, I am not doing this in vain. I am an educator. Sometimes it spills over onto the board.

And here is the best point of all. Athletes are NOT ROLE MODELS!!!!!!!!!!! If more people in this country realized that and taught their kids this then no one would care. This is the problem. Role models are police officers, firefighters, and doctors. People who put their lives on the line to help others. Not millionaire athletes who play ****ing games. Role models? **** that. I would be real nice to kids also if I made 10 million a year to play a game I enjoy playing.

Justagirl
06-21-2006, 06:42 PM
And don't get me wrong here. Should he have said it? No. I know that. But the way people get so upset about this amazes me. Absolutely unreal.
I know, all this pandemonium reminds me of the K Hernandez *incident* the way general public freaked out over his opinion.

Risk
06-21-2006, 06:43 PM
And we wonder why this country has so many lawyers.....and now they even advertise on TV. God help us.

I'm confused. What, if any, is the point of this statement?

Risk

MarySwiss
06-21-2006, 06:45 PM
Also, if a regular american used *** as the idiom for cigarette, would that be offensive?

"regular American?" Yikes!

I think the last time I heard this was when Archie Bunker said it.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 06:45 PM
[WHO CARES! Does this matter in ones life at all? No. So why should people care about what a baseball manager says. It has no effect one ones life.[

Obviously, if nobody cared, this thread wouldn't be so long.

The game of baseball has an effect on people, or just sports in general...it drove me from swearing I would never again watch another White Sox game the last two weeks of the 05 regular season to becoming even more obsessed about it, even though we've finally won the WS.

As far as the German Americans thing again, they didn't have their homes taken away, their crops confiscated, their belongings possessed...under suspicion and imprisoned are the same. Barry Bonds has a tough life, he is under suspicion too, but he's not under house arrest without the ability to learn a living while imprisoned with other HGH, creatine and steroid users in antiquated barracks in Pocatello, Idaho.

Fenway
06-21-2006, 06:46 PM
No offense intended, but who cares what the people in Boston think? They're probably still reeling from being swept out of the playoffs and from the horrible trade they made today.

Picketing? Surely, you jest.

Jason Johnson will lead us to the promised land :?:

and you miss the point, this is no longer a Chicago story but a national one and it was getting more airtime in the east than the NBA Finals. Trust me SELIG CARES what fans think.

thomas35forever
06-21-2006, 06:46 PM
After a comment like that, the media's gonna try and villify two members of the Sox organization. First AJ, now Ozzie. Or was it already like that? Was there any talk about it on Around the Horn?

cbotnyse
06-21-2006, 06:48 PM
After a comment like that, the media's gonna try and villify two members of the Sox organization. First AJ, now Ozzie. Or was it already like that? Was there any talk about it on Around the Horn?yeah check back a few hundred posts...:tongue:

Justagirl
06-21-2006, 06:49 PM
Was there any talk about it on Around the Horn?
Yes
Edit: Nevermind

rowand33
06-21-2006, 06:51 PM
Using the logic implied in the above quote, should I make a public posting that says "rowand33 is a ******** who ***** puppies and small children" and then we will all sit around, slap each other on the back and have a good laugh about it?

I certainly wouldn't cry about it if you did. It wouldn't keep me up at night. My life would in no way be worse. I'd wake up the next day and the sun would still rise.

And I think that's my whole point. I understand why this is a big deal. I agree that Ozzie should have known better than to say ***. Replace *** with ***** and there isn't a 30 some page thread abuot it.
But Ozzie hurt no one by saying the word ***. It's sad that this is a big issue. People need to lighten up.

But it is a big issue and Ozzie needs to stop talking to the media the way he'd talk in a locker room.

Are you serious? :rolleyes:

If you don't think that Ozzie used that word in hatred, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant by in hatred. Ozzie didn't use it in hatred towards homosexuals, he used it in hatred towards Mariotti. I feel the former is a problem but I fail to understand how the latter is offensive.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 06:52 PM
"regular American?" Yikes!

I think the last time I heard this was when Archie Bunker said it.

Sorry i did use the wrong word, i think what i ment to say is average american, my bad

samram
06-21-2006, 06:53 PM
I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant by in hatred. Ozzie didn't use it in hatred towards homosexuals, he used it in hatred towards Mariotti. I feel the former is a problem but I fail to understand how the latter is offensive.

Because he insulted Mariotti by equating him to a homosexual, implying that being gay is inherently bad.

WSox8404
06-21-2006, 06:54 PM
I certainly wouldn't cry about it if you did. It wouldn't keep me up at night. My life would in no way be worse. I'd wake up the next day and the sun would still rise.

And I think that's my whole point. I understand why this is a big deal. I agree that Ozzie should have known better than to say ***. Replace *** with ***** and there isn't a 30 some page thread abuot it.
But Ozzie hurt no one by saying the word ***. It's sad that this is a big issue. People need to lighten up.

But it is a big issue and Ozzie needs to stop talking to the media the way he'd talk in a locker room.



I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant by in hatred. Ozzie didn't use it in hatred towards homosexuals, he used it in hatred towards Mariotti. I feel the former is a problem but I fail to understand how the latter is offensive.

Great post. Nothing anyone says to me makes me not able to sleep. If anything it makes me laugh. I wake up the next morning as well and the sun is there as always. Well if its cloudy there is light but no sun. But you get my point.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 06:56 PM
Because he insulted Mariotti by equating him to a homosexual, implying that being gay is inherently bad.
The term *** is only negative while used in the American vocabulary, in the rest of the world it ranges from cigarette to a bundle of sticks

To put as someone else on this thread said, Being a *** does not mean your gay, being gay doesnt mean you are a ***. He called windsock a ***, meaning that he lacked manhood. Would everyone be happier if he called him ****less?

BarbG
06-21-2006, 06:57 PM
I've never been to Venezuela, but I can tell you that when we were kids on the South Side of Chicago in the '60's & '70's we used the term *** to mean "sissy" or "wuss". I'm sure that's how Ozzie meant it.
It's the same way the teenagers today use it, and just as often towards girls as guys these days. I have zero doubt that "coward" is what Ozzie meant. I wish Ozzie had said "coward."

This has been blown WAY out of proportion. As fas as, Ozzie should have known he was talking to reporters...hmmm...Couch and Mariotti are both "reporters." Just think how many ugly, offensive, derogatory terms Mariotti has used towards Ozzie whilst speaking with Couch (a "reporter") - and Couch didn't feel the need to print any of that in his column, ever. NO WAY Mariotti hasn't used offensive terms while talking with his little wanna-be.

Mariotti is not from Chicago and made it clear to Sun-Times coworkers that he doesn't care one whit about Chicago sports - he came here to cause controversy and thus sell papers, period. He's succeeding. He's making big bucks to make up whatever he wants and cause fighting and bad feelings - and laughing all the way to the bank.

Ozzie should clarify his meaning and apologize to those he offended but not to Mariotti. Couch should be required to make public every derogatory word Mariotti has used in reference to Ozzie as well.

Ozzie's only words to any reporters in this city should be "no comment."

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 06:57 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/06/21/guillen.slur/index.html

And the beat goes on....

viagracat
06-21-2006, 06:58 PM
What distresses me the most about this thread is that there are apparently some posters who consider people that try to practice civility and tolerence to be somehow soft and weak. That's the most utter bull**** I've read here in a long time. Some people here need to grow up.

As a kid in the '60s growing up in a white neighborhood, it was cool with some to tell gay or ethnic jokes; hell, I even remember the disgusting dead baby and Helen Keller jokes as well. As far as I know, that kind of crap isn't as funny anymore and I very rarely hear such stuff. It's not a matter of being "politically correct" in the words of some here; it's a matter of maturity and being polite.

There used to be a saying "If you can't say something good, don't say nothing at all". Maybe that needs to come back into play.

Yes, this is America and you are entitiled to more or less say what you want. But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

PS: both MLB and the White Sox are private organizations that can discipline their employees any way they want. If Ozzie gets fined or suspended, that doesn't make then un-American.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 06:59 PM
Would everyone be happier if he called him ****less?
Actually yes, because - and I am sure many would agree - that is a better description of the newly created victim thanks to Ozzie.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 06:59 PM
But wouldn't calling him gay be a slur? It's not the actual word, it is what you mean by using the word. Know what I mean?

Now to quote Penn Gillete, "And then there's this *******:"



Are you serious? :rolleyes:

If you don't think that Ozzie used that word in hatred, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. True but his hatred wasn't against gays. PH13 if WSI ever got their press pass and let you have it and he attacked you for an article you wrote and then went on to use every slur he could, I'd call for some punishment. You yourself just said it's not the word but what you mean by it. It's pretty clear given the situation and what's known about Ozzie his meaning was Jay's an *******, wuss, etc. I think Ozzie definitely owes an apology. I think on it's own that should be it. Now if the sox feel Ozzie needs to be reigned in due to a pattern of mouthing off, that's their own business perogative and I could understand why they would do it. I know you haven't said this but the outraged calling for his head is what I find ridiculous, pc and over the top.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:00 PM
Actually yes, because - and I am sure many would agree - that is a better description of the newly created victim thanks to Ozzie.

But that is an offensive term too, How is one offensive term better than another?

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 07:01 PM
But that is an offensive term too, How is one offensive term better than another?
Who is that offensive too? Are there still a bunch of eunuchs running around? I don't think women would be offended by that statement.

enurb
06-21-2006, 07:02 PM
Jason Johnson will lead us to the promised land :?:

and you miss the point, this is no longer a Chicago story but a national one and it was getting more airtime in the east than the NBA Finals. Trust me SELIG CARES what fans think.

Fair enough.

Ozzie will take any suspension "like a man" (can I say that?) and this issue will blow over and away. The baseball we are playing right now is pure heart, joy, and beauty, and nothing the local or national media can do will prevent that reality from being the real story here. It is also largely and predominantly the result of Ozzie's managing, and nobody can take that away from Ozzie.

According to some, Ozzie "stepped in it" (no offense to canines intended) because: (a) he used an offensive word; (b) he used a "hot button" word potentially offensive that is potentially harmful to the Sox "brand"; (c) he showed poor judgment; and/or (d) all of the above.

Even accepting all of these as true, does this story really merit all the attention it is being given here and in the media? Come on. This is a footnote story at best. Let's all get some perspective.

And, let's pound the Cards into oblivion again tonight.


Fenway, P.S., Here's hoping the wildcard comes from the AL Central and you win the East outright.

samram
06-21-2006, 07:05 PM
The term *** is only negative while used in the American vocabulary, in the rest of the world it ranges from cigarette to a bundle of sticks

To put as someone else on this thread said, Being a *** does not mean your gay, being gay doesnt mean you are a ***. He called windsock a ***, meaning that he lacked manhood. Would everyone be happier if he called him ****less?
I would be happy if he conducted himself more professionally and stopped worrying about what the Windsock said.

By the way, wasn't Ozzie using the term *** within the confines of the American vocabulary?

As I said waayyyyyyy back at the beginning of this thread, Tiger Woods got in some hot water for referring to himself as a spaz after some tournament earlier this year. Some in Britain were outraged because the term spaz over there refers specifically to people with spastic conditions, like cerebral palsy. I thought it was silly for people there to expect Woods to know the connotation of the term over there, but the fact is when in you're in a professional setting, you have to be careful about what you say. That's how it is, like it or not. Plus, Ozzie has been here long enough to know what that term means in this country.

MarySwiss
06-21-2006, 07:05 PM
10 pages in and this is the best post on the whole thread.

They're just words. The world doesn't end when they're uttered aloud.

I think the world would be a much better place if the whole PC thing would just go away and people would quit being so damned sensitive about being called a retard or a ***.

I'm 21. Everybody I know says stuff like "**** you ***" or "what are you a retard" to each other all the time. Nobody means anything by it. The only time I think those words are inappropriate is when they're used in hatred, but being used as part of the american youth vernacular shouldn't offend people.

And if it does, stop being so ****ing uptight.

I understand that this is a big deal, but I tihnk it's ****ing ridiculous that it is. People need to find better things to do with their time than bitch about Ozzie calling some douche bag a ***.

Oh, My Sweet Lord!

I'm not even going to try to deal with all of this, but let's just hit the high spots:

"people would quit being so damned sensitive about being called a retard or a ***."
I'm not going near the "***" part--we've been there today, but next time you meet someone who has a good friend or family member with a learning disability, why not explain to them why "retard" is not hurtful?

"being used as part of the american youth vernacular shouldn't offend people."
Thanks for explaining that to those of us who are not part of the "American youth vernacular." I think I'll step back and let some of the other WSI members of your age group take you apart on that one--and I'm sure they will.

"People need to find better things to do with their time than bitch about Ozzie calling some douche bag a ***"
"Douche bag? nothing offensive about that one either, I guess.

"Everybody I know says stuff like "**** you ***" or "what are you a retard" to each other all the time. Nobody means anything by it."
"Everybody?" "Nobody?" Those are absolutes, and absolutes are always wrong.

BTW, a heads-up. I would think that by the time someone gets to college, they would know that "American" is a proper noun, therefore always capitalized.

rowand33
06-21-2006, 07:06 PM
Just a thought...

As a white male, I can tell you that I wouldn't be offended if Ozzie, a latino, had called Mariotti a "cracker" or "honkey." I can also guarantee that there wouldn't be a 40 page thread about it. We'd just be like "oh ozzie..."

A question for the white people... have you ever been offended by any of those terms? They're derogatory, but I've never heard of such an uproar after public usage of one.

I assume the typical response to that would be "well that's not the same."

Why not?

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:08 PM
Who is that offensive too? Are there still a bunch of eunuchs running around? I don't think women would be offended by that statement.

So by your reasoning, calling someone an ******* or ****er isnt offensive?

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:10 PM
I would be happy if he conducted himself more professionally and stopped worrying about what the Windsock said.

By the way, wasn't Ozzie using the term *** within the confines of the American vocabulary?

As I said waayyyyyyy back at the beginning of this thread, Tiger Woods got in some hot water for referring to himself as a spaz after some tournament earlier this year. Some in Britain were outraged because the term spaz over there refers specifically to people with spastic conditions, like cerebral palsy. I thought it was silly for people there to expect Woods to know the connotation of the term over there, but the fact is when in you're in a professional setting, you have to be careful about what you say. That's how it is, like it or not. Plus, Ozzie has been here long enough to know what that term means in this country.

That tiger story reminds me of the "shag" issue cuz shag in england apparently has the same direct connotation as ****

cbotnyse
06-21-2006, 07:12 PM
Just a thought...

As a white male, I can tell you that I wouldn't be offended if Ozzie, a latino, had called Mariotti a "cracker" or "honkey." I can also guarantee that there wouldn't be a 40 page thread about it. We'd just be like "oh ozzie..."

A question for the white people... have you ever been offended by any of those terms? They're derogatory, but I've never heard of such an uproar after public usage of one.

I assume the typical response to that would be "well that's not the same."

Why not?As a white man, I would be offended, and even more embarrassed for Ozzie. There are plenty of terms to bash a person (idiot, moron, dumbass) racial or sexual terms does not need to be one of them.

TheKittle
06-21-2006, 07:13 PM
I won't bother reading this entire thread. But Mariotti, said "That's gay" on Around the Horn. After saying that, he realized what he said and then said something to the effect like "I don't mean that in a bad way."


Ok I just admit I watch Around the Horn.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 07:14 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/red-062106-guillen,1,4402670.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

gay rights groups from ILL join the fray...

Because, those remarks come from groups who have not enjoyed power status in American society...we can get into reverse racism and two wrongs don't add up to one right all you want, but the fact of the matter is that your middle or upper class life has never been directly affected by being discriminated against because of the fact that you are white, has it? Have you ever been beaten up, spit on, had a cross burned in your yard, been lynched, immolated, mutilated, castrated....because you were a WHITE person? If you have, please tell me this story.

The worst harm I have read here is someone who didn't get a coveted media job because it went to a woman. Obviously, this person still leads a rather successful life, even though that experience was disappointing, right?

samram
06-21-2006, 07:16 PM
As a white man, I would be offended, and even more embarrassed for Ozzie. There are plenty of terms to bash a person (idiot, moron, dumbass) racial or sexual terms need not be one of them.

I think Dennis Miller once asked "Why hate someone based on their race when, if you really get to know them, you'll find so many other reasons to hate them?":D:

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 07:16 PM
Sorry, but IMO, when it comes to Sox fans' attitudes, this proves nothing. Do you seriously think this discussion does not reflect societal attitudes in general?

One of the popular shirts sold on the streets by Sox Park labels Wrigley Field as the World's Largest Gay Bar. This leads many to believe that Sox fans think that labeling something as 'gay' means it is a bad thing. By some of the comments by certain people in this thread, we have done nothing to disspell that stereotype.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 07:17 PM
Well, maybe now Mariotti can get a reprimand or fine from the SunTimes. Hopefully it will hurt both of them in the pocketbook, enough to stop using the term in any way, shape or form.

Sargeant79
06-21-2006, 07:17 PM
Just a thought...

As a white male, I can tell you that I wouldn't be offended if Ozzie, a latino, had called Mariotti a "cracker" or "honkey." I can also guarantee that there wouldn't be a 40 page thread about it. We'd just be like "oh ozzie..."

A question for the white people... have you ever been offended by any of those terms? They're derogatory, but I've never heard of such an uproar after public usage of one.

I assume the typical response to that would be "well that's not the same."

Why not?

It has everything to do with context. If someone who was non-white was directing the term "cracker" at me in anger and in the context of a verbal attack, I would probably be offended. If one of my African American friends calls me a cracker in a friendly, joking manner (as in "Shut the **** up cracker", as one of my friends does say to me often), I wouldn't think twice about it, nor would I think twice if Ozzie referred to Mariotti as one (although that is only because I'm not offended by very much and because I think Mariotti deserves any expletive-laden descriptions that come his way)

I think the context in which Ozzie used the word needs to be taken into consideration when the public and the press goes after him. That said, Ozzie needs to start learning that not everyone is going to interpret things he says in the same way that he intends it. As a representative of a professional organization of any kind, he needs to watch what he says. It comes with the territory.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 07:17 PM
"being used as part of the american youth vernacular shouldn't offend people."
Thanks for explaining that to those of us who are not part of the "American youth vernacular." I think I'll step back and let some of the other WSI members of your age group take you apart on that one--and I'm sure they will.
I'll take that Mary, sit back relax, and strap it down for a few.....

Being apart of the "American Youth Vernacular" I'll respond to that. Let me use some other words that go along with American Youth: spoiled, rotten, hateful, spiteful, unaware, ill-informed, unappreciative, and uncivil.

I student taught this past fall, and I was amazed at the words students were using. Sure, I have used those words in the past, but to myself or a group of friends. Never, had I ever used those words in public where others might hear and be offended by them. That is just not my style. Most students I encountered, as well as my co-workers of the same age, feel that the world owes them something.

Nobody owes anybody anything. You go out and earn what you want. You do not do that, by going around using words like ***, or ****er, or douchebag (words btw, I have used on this message board, deal with me for that as you will). To hide behind an excuse such as, "Well I grew up that way," or "All my friends do it," or "Political correctness be damned," just shows how ill-educated you really are.

There is no grand conspiracy against anybody to stop telling you what to say. There is no grand conspiracy against the poor down-trodden white man. There are no special rights for special groups. There are new rights given to those who previously didn't have anything to hang their hats on. This isn't PC, or liberal, or conservative. The majority of all of it is bull****. Act civil, realize what might be hurtful to others, and don't go around crying that people are taking away your rights. You just look silly, especially while your saying it while watching American Idol, instead of the news.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 07:19 PM
I think everyone will think at least ONCE in the city of Chicago (or around the US and world) before they use the term gay from now on...if they use it at all.

And, if for no other reason, maybe that's a good thing that has come out of all this today.

rowand33
06-21-2006, 07:20 PM
Oh, My Sweet Lord!

I'm not even going to try to deal with all of this, but let's just hit the high spots:

"people would quit being so damned sensitive about being called a retard or a ***."
I'm not going near the "***" part--we've been there today, but next time you meet someone who has a good friend or family member with a learning disability, why not explain to them why "retard" is not hurtful?

Fair enough.

"being used as part of the american youth vernacular shouldn't offend people."
Thanks for explaining that to those of us who are not part of the "American youth vernacular." I think I'll step back and let some of the other WSI members of your age group take you apart on that one--and I'm sure they will.

I don't normally pick hairs about stuff like this online, I consider myself above that. but since you chose to pick apart my capitalization below, we'll have a quick lesson in what the word vernacular means....

The word vernacular refers to a commonly spoken language of a region or group. When saying that the usage of words such as *** or retard are common in the "American youth vernacular" I meant to make the point that they're used in that way in the common conversation of teens and twenty-somethings while also noting that the usage is uncommon in other age groups. Which is a true statement. I'd love to see someone in my age group try and refute it as you suggested above.
You said you're not a part of this "vernacular." A vernacular is not a group or an organization. It's a language. Before insulting my college education because I didn't capitalize the word American on an online white sox fan forum (a place for formal writing apparently...) I would appreciate it if you'd take the time to know what the words in my ****ing post mean and how to use them properly.

"People need to find better things to do with their time than bitch about Ozzie calling some douche bag a ***"
"Douche bag? nothing offensive about that one either, I guess.

you're right, feminine hygiene products everywhere are pissed that Rowand33 said douch bag on WSI...

"Everybody I know says stuff like "**** you ***" or "what are you a retard" to each other all the time. Nobody means anything by it."
"Everybody?" "Nobody?" Those are absolutes, and absolutes are always wrong.

I think I'm qualified to make judgments on what the people I know are like...

BTW, a heads-up. I would think that by the time someone gets to college, they would know that "American" is a proper noun, therefore always capitalized.

Thanks!

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:21 PM
And here is the best point of all. Athletes are NOT ROLE MODELS!!!!!!!!!!! If more people in this country realized that and taught their kids this then no one would care. This is the problem. Role models are police officers, firefighters, and doctors. People who put their lives on the line to help others. Not millionaire athletes who play ****ing games. Role models? **** that. I would be real nice to kids also if I made 10 million a year to play a game I enjoy playing.
My dad, a retired Chicago Police Officer, was my other role model. I admired Ozzie for his talent and I don't see anything wrong with that. Obviously you admire them(athletes) in some form otherwise you wouldn't be here.

Sargeant79
06-21-2006, 07:22 PM
Have you ever been beaten up, spit on, had a cross burned in your yard, been lynched, immolated, mutilated, castrated....because you were a WHITE person? If you have, please tell me this story.


Not that it is neither here nor there, but when I was a kid, I lived in some areas where white people were in the minority. I got confronted, called names, spit on, and/or beat up for being white more than once. Although the fact that I didn't shut up and take it when being confronted or called names probably contributed to the beatings.

It does happen, but you are right in that it happens comparatively infrequently to white people as opposed to those in minority groups of any kind.

MarySwiss
06-21-2006, 07:23 PM
I'll take that Mary, sit back relax, and strap it down for a few.....

Being apart of the "American Youth Vernacular" I'll respond to that. Let me use some other words that go along with American Youth: spoiled, rotten, hateful, spiteful, unaware, ill-informed, unappreciative, and uncivil.

I student taught this past fall, and I was amazed at the words students were using. Sure, I have used those words in the past, but to myself or a group of friends. Never, had I ever used those words in public where others might hear and be offended by them. That is just not my style. Most students I encountered, as well as my co-workers of the same age, feel that the world owes them something.

Nobody owes anybody anything. You go out and earn what you want. You do not do that, by going around using words like ***, or ****er, or douchebag (words btw, I have used on this message board, deal with me for that as you will). To hide behind an excuse such as, "Well I grew up that way," or "All my friends do it," or "Political correctness be damned," just shows how ill-educated you really are.

There is no grand conspiracy against anybody to stop telling you what to say. There is no grand conspiracy against the poor down-trodden white man. There are no special rights for special groups. There are new rights given to those who previously didn't have anything to hang their hats on. This isn't PC, or liberal, or conservative. The majority of all of it is bull****. Act civil, realize what might be hurtful to others, and don't go around crying that people are taking away your rights. You just look silly, especially while your saying it while watching American Idol, instead of the news.

Thank you. :smile:

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 07:23 PM
I'd love to see someone in my age group try and refute it as you suggested abover.


Never used it and never heard one of my friend's use it. We try to be civilized in our conversation and leave racial and sexuality slurs out of the picture.

Fenway
06-21-2006, 07:27 PM
Fair enough.


Even accepting all of these as true, does this story really merit all the attention it is being given here and in the media? Come on. This is a footnote story at best. Let's all get some perspective.

And, let's pound the Cards into oblivion again tonight.


Fenway, P.S., Here's hoping the wildcard comes from the AL Central and you win the East outright.


There is one reason why this story moved on the wire the way it did and it is because the writer involved works for ESPN on the side. Bristol is using this as yet another self promotion tool which they are very good at.

We had a situation in Boston this off season that showed the clout of the local gay community. One of Boston's biggest gay dance clubs is located in a building across the street from Fenway Park and the Red Sox bought the building and said they would not renew the clubs lease. The Red Sox issued a statement saying that they wanted the area around Fenway to be family oriented :rolleyes:

Well the gay community went bonkers and the nightclub is still there as a tenant of the Red Sox.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 07:27 PM
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=2235&incomming=1&question16895=69241&question16896=69244&question16897=69245&question16898=69247&question16899=69249&question16900=69253&question16901=69256&question16902=69258&question16903=69262&question16904=69265

VERY INTERESTING ESPN POLL specifically on this situation, with over 34,000 responses from around the country.

From a White Sox perspective, it's not so good when your manager has a 36% not favorable rating and a 28% somewhat favorable rating. Of course, these responses are a gut reaction by some who don't know him very well.

55% against suspension, 45% for suspension. Pretty evenly divided.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:28 PM
I think everyone will think at least ONCE in the city of Chicago (or around the US and world) before they use the term gay from now on...if they use it at all.

And, if for no other reason, maybe that's a good thing that has come out of all this today.

Or people will live life normally and forget this in a week or so

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:29 PM
I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant by in hatred. Ozzie didn't use it in hatred towards homosexuals, he used it in hatred towards Mariotti. I feel the former is a problem but I fail to understand how the latter is offensive.

You are completely missing my point. I am going to bring some attention to it here for you and others to see:

When Ozzie said "***", it was not meant to be complimentary. No, Ozzie was not gay-bashing. Ozzie was Mariotti bashing. It is offensive because he said the word *** knowing that it would elicit a negative response. My issue is that people are condoning the use of the word ***. It is insulting and offensive. It insinutates that gays are inferior people.

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 07:30 PM
You are completely missing my point. I am going to bring some attention to it here for you and others to see:

When Ozzie said "***", it was not meant to be complimentary. No, Ozzie was not gay-bashing. Ozzie was Mariotti bashing. It is offensive because he said the word *** knowing that it would elicit a negative response. My issue is that people are condoning the use of the word ***. It is insulting and offensive. It insinutates that gays are inferior people.

Sadly several people have said this in very clear terms in this thread, but some folks either lack the ability to comprehend or just don't get it.

samram
06-21-2006, 07:31 PM
Sadly several people have said this in very clear terms in this thread, but some folks either lack the ability to comprehend or just don't get it.

Or don't want to.

Justagirl
06-21-2006, 07:32 PM
Sadly several people have said this in very clear terms in this thread, but some folks either lack the ability to comprehend or just don't get it.
Either that or they lack the ability to agree.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:33 PM
I'll take that Mary, sit back relax, and strap it down for a few.....

Being apart of the "American Youth Vernacular" I'll respond to that. Let me use some other words that go along with American Youth: spoiled, rotten, hateful, spiteful, unaware, ill-informed, unappreciative, and uncivil.

I student taught this past fall, and I was amazed at the words students were using. Sure, I have used those words in the past, but to myself or a group of friends. Never, had I ever used those words in public where others might hear and be offended by them. That is just not my style. Most students I encountered, as well as my co-workers of the same age, feel that the world owes them something.

Nobody owes anybody anything. You go out and earn what you want. You do not do that, by going around using words like ***, or ****er, or douchebag (words btw, I have used on this message board, deal with me for that as you will). To hide behind an excuse such as, "Well I grew up that way," or "All my friends do it," or "Political correctness be damned," just shows how ill-educated you really are.

There is no grand conspiracy against anybody to stop telling you what to say. There is no grand conspiracy against the poor down-trodden white man. There are no special rights for special groups. There are new rights given to those who previously didn't have anything to hang their hats on. This isn't PC, or liberal, or conservative. The majority of all of it is bull****. Act civil, realize what might be hurtful to others, and don't go around crying that people are taking away your rights. You just look silly, especially while your saying it while watching American Idol, instead of the news.

:worship::worship::worship:

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:33 PM
You are completely missing my point. I am going to bring some attention to it here for you and others to see:

When Ozzie said "***", it was not meant to be complimentary. No, Ozzie was not gay-bashing. Ozzie was Mariotti bashing. It is offensive because he said the word *** knowing that it would elicit a negative response. My issue is that people are condoning the use of the word ***. It is insulting and offensive. It insinutates that gays are inferior people.
I asked this earlier, if he called Windsock a ****less scumbag, would that me more appropriate? If he was interviewed in venezuela and called him a ***, would that bother u too? Only in america is that term seen as a derogatory term to homosexuals. If you say shag in England, its equivilant of saying **** in America, but we can say it so easily with no bad usage.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:34 PM
Sadly several people have said this in very clear terms in this thread, but some folks either lack the ability to comprehend or just don't get it.

Hmmmm...is there a correlation between personal opinion and lack of comprehension?

MarySwiss
06-21-2006, 07:34 PM
Fair enough.

I don't normally pick hairs about stuff like this online, I consider myself above that. but since you chose to pick apart my capitalization below, we'll have a quick lesson in what the word vernacular means....

The word vernacular refers to a commonly spoken language of a region or group. When saying that the usage of words such as *** or retard are common in the "American youth vernacular" I meant to make the point that they're used in that way in the common conversation of teens and twenty-somethings while also noting that the usage is uncommon in other age groups. Which is a true statement. I'd love to see someone in my age group try and refute it as you suggested above.
You said you're not a part of this "vernacular." A vernacular is not a group or an organization. It's a language. Before insulting my college education because I didn't capitalize the word American on an online white sox fan forum (a place for formal writing apparently...) I would appreciate it if you'd take the time to know what the words in my ****ing post mean and how to use them properly.

Sure, I'll play. From Web 11: vernacular adj. "of, relating to, or characteristic of a period, place, or group." Not the primary meaning, but before you lecture someone on usage, you might want to be sure you're on solid ground.

As for capitalizing American, a proper noun is a proper noun. Period.

BTW, as I write this, one person in your age group HAS refuted your statement. As, I am certain, will others.

And you're welcome.

Frontman
06-21-2006, 07:34 PM
First off, Ozzie should of known better. He should of known that this would get him in trouble. HOWEVER, I think this whole "He's just as bad as Bonds" crap is moronic.

I can't help but think of a segment on the Score last week where Mike Murphy (insert shudder here. Sue me, I can't get any other good stations while at work.) asked I believe George Offman about reporters asking questions. That reporters try to phrase a question to get a desired response. Marriotti is a hot button topic for White Sox Nation, players, fans, managment, etc. If Ozzie was asked about Marriotti, the reporter who asked said question WANTED this response, or something similar. He or she WANTED Ozzie to get pissed.

I'm just glad Ozzie stopped short of calling him something where he could get fired for what he said, versus something that is suspension level. (Which, btw, I would agree Ozzie should get some form of punishment for this.)

Front

gf2020
06-21-2006, 07:35 PM
Only in america is that term seen as a derogatory term to homosexuals.

Thank God we all live and work in Egypt.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:35 PM
Sadly several people have said this in very clear terms in this thread, but some folks either lack the ability to comprehend or just don't get it.

Let me say this thru everything you have stated in this thread, What makes you so right? What makes your opinion so well informed and educated compared to everyone else. I freely admit i am not a genius, i admit i am ignorant, i freely admit every day i quest to limit my ignorance and anyone who claims to know more or everything is a fool.

I can admit i may be wrong, can you admit you dont know everything and you could be wrong in what you are saying, same goes for everyone else in this thread

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:37 PM
I asked this earlier, if he called Windsock a ****less scumbag, would that me more appropriate?
Yes.

If he was interviewed in venezuela and called him a ***, would that bother u too?
I have no idea how or why I would be reading a Venezuelan interview.

Only in america is that term seen as a derogatory term to homosexuals.
Um...where are we?

And as I had said numerous times before, I'm not as upset with Ozzie as I am with the ****ers in this thread talking out of their asses.

Martinigirl
06-21-2006, 07:38 PM
Just a thought...

As a white male, I can tell you that I wouldn't be offended if Ozzie, a latino, had called Mariotti a "cracker" or "honkey." I can also guarantee that there wouldn't be a 40 page thread about it. We'd just be like "oh ozzie..."

A question for the white people... have you ever been offended by any of those terms? They're derogatory, but I've never heard of such an uproar after public usage of one.

I assume the typical response to that would be "well that's not the same."

Why not?

It is not the same because as a white person, particularly male, you are in the majority and tend to be in a position of political power. The people in 'power' look like you.

Now imagine if you were in an area where you were the only white person and someone started throwing around words like "cracker" or "honkey", do you think you would then feel imtimidated or offended?

I would imagine if I were surronded by a bunch of men and they referred to me as only by the b or c words, I wouldn't be thrilled.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 07:39 PM
:worship::worship::worship:
No no no, my friend. Those icons are soley reserved for you.

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 07:41 PM
Well done, Hal. But you should have given the year to place this in context. IIRC, South Pacific was released in the late 1950s.

We've come a long way, baby! :(:

The play opened in on Broadway in 1949. Even more telling, isn't it?

rowand33
06-21-2006, 07:42 PM
Sure, I'll play. From Web 11: vernacular adj. "of, relating to, or characteristic of a period, place, or group." Not the primary meaning, but before you lecture someone on usage, you might want to be sure you're on solid ground.

As for capitalizing American, a proper noun is a proper noun. Period.

BTW, as I write this, one person in your age group HAS refuted your statement. As, I am certain, will others.

And you're welcome.

Listen, the whole point of even bringing the usage thing up was this: it's a post not a term paper. No reason to be a dick and bring up grammar.

That person refuted that they said it. I'd like someone to refute the fact that a lot of people in that age group talk like that because that was my point. If I was going to be online longer I'd pull up random facebook and myspace profiles to prove it...

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:43 PM
Let me say this thru everything you have stated in this thread, What makes you so right? What makes your opinion so well informed and educated compared to everyone else. I freely admit i am not a genius, i admit i am ignorant, i freely admit every day i quest to limit my ignorance and anyone who claims to know more or everything is a fool.

I can admit i may be wrong, can you admit you dont know everything and you could be wrong in what you are saying, same goes for everyone else in this thread

I'll bite. Because I am homosexual. I know what I am talking about because this affects me very personally. I am going to assume that you are not gay and don't understand how I feel. If someone said something that offended whatever group you belong to, you have every right to be upset and defend yourself. The bottom line is that using homosexual slurs is saying that homosexuals are inferior human beings. I don't think that I know everything (anyone who does is a fool), but I do know that I am not an inferior human being.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:43 PM
Yes.

SO, YOU are perfectly fine with insulting someone in an offensive manner as long as it in no way bothers YOU. Im sorry but im not gonna take a talley of people in the room to see the ratio or who may be offended by something i may say. You cannot say one offensive thing is ok while another offensive thing is not.

Reminds me of the family guy joke with stewie, stewie was gonna tell a joke, first he ran around the room and outside to make sure no black guys were there, then was gonna tell the joke.

RadioheadRocks
06-21-2006, 07:44 PM
Guillen called Jay Mariotti a ***....what's the problem here? It would be different if he called the fans of San Francisco ****, like Julian Tavarez did, if would be different if he said what Rocker did, who's comments were about ordinary New York residents, but were talking about Mariotti. The guy spreads hate and negativity and gets paid for it. I hope the Sox continue to attack this clown until he is run out of Chicago. I personally wouldn't call him a ***, but I would call him a crappy "writer", and a hate spewing gerbil.

Ozzie should have just called him a chicken **** and left it at that.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:44 PM
No no no, my friend. Those icons are soley reserved for you.

While I appreciate that, you so very eloquently took to task some ignorant people. I feel that you will be a great educator. :cool:

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:45 PM
I'll bite. Because I am homosexual. I know what I am talking about because this affects me very personally. I am going to assume that you are not gay and don't understand how I feel. If someone said something that offended whatever group you belong to, you have every right to be upset and defend yourself. The bottom line is that using homosexual slurs is saying that homosexuals are inferior human beings. I don't think that I know everything (anyone who does is a fool), but I do know that I am not an inferior human being.

Yet as you proved in a reply earlier, that using termenology to demean men, such as ****less scumbag or something, stating a man is less than a man, is OK? You have problems with the word because to you it makes u feel inferior, which is understandable, yet u are ok with other people being undermined and called terms that make them inferior. Implying a man has no penis and is like a girl like the insult u said would be ok is not nice, is offensive and should be disliked as much as ***

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 07:46 PM
Let me say this thru everything you have stated in this thread, What makes you so right? What makes your opinion so well informed and educated compared to everyone else. I freely admit i am not a genius, i admit i am ignorant, i freely admit every day i quest to limit my ignorance and anyone who claims to know more or everything is a fool.

I can admit i may be wrong, can you admit you dont know everything and you could be wrong in what you are saying, same goes for everyone else in this thread

I admit I am wrong quite a bit. Your problem is you avoid issues and questions. You start going on about freedom of speech and when you are shown this is not an issue of freedom of speech, you go down another road. Then you start into these hypotheticals about, "What if this was Venezuela? Would you be offended then?" Guess what, it's not Venezuela. Honestly, people like you are annoying. You're arguing just to argue. I don't believe you're a bad person b/c you have said several times that all people should be treated equally.

However, people in this world are not treated equally. And part of that inequality comes from racial and sexuality slurs. Your comparison of someone being called a *** and someone being called a moron for being a Cub fan is just plain stupid. If you really think those are similar situations, you need to do some serious research about how homosexuals have been ridiculed and tortured in this country.

Again, go back and look at what we are saying. No one is saying Ozzie should be fired or that the media should be going wild over this. What we are saying is that he screwed up. What he did was dumb. But, to defend his actions is even more stupid. To say that calling people a *** is OK or on the same level as calling someone a moron is, well, moronic.

I never said I knew everything. This is just another tactic you're using to take the focus off of what the discussion was about. It's another way for you to argue. Have fun, buddy, b/c I have no desire to argue with you and your constant hypotheticals.

MarySwiss
06-21-2006, 07:47 PM
Listen, the whole point of even bringing the usage thing up was this: it's a post not a term paper. No reason to be a dick and bring up grammar.

That person refuted that they said it. I'd like someone to refute the fact that a lot of people in that age group talk like that because that was my point. If I was going to be online longer I'd pull up random facebook and myspace profiles to prove it...

I didn't. Nor did I bring up usage. You did.

Bye now.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:49 PM
SO, YOU are perfectly fine with insulting someone in an offensive manner as long as it in no way bothers YOU. Im sorry but im not gonna take a talley of people in the room to see the ratio or who may be offended by something i may say. You cannot say one offensive thing is ok while another offensive thing is not.

People call other people names when they are mad at them. I see no problem with calling people idiot, jerk, *******, ****er, or any other general term. However, when someone calls someone a ***, dyke, ******, kike, retard, wetback, etc...they are targeting a specific group and IMO, that is wrong.

Hey, if you are card-carrying ******* and are offended that I called Mariotti an *******, I apologize to you and all of the other *******s out there.

How are you not getting this concept?

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:49 PM
Again, go back and look at what we are saying. No one is saying Ozzie should be fired or that the media should be going wild over this. What we are saying is that he screwed up. What he did was dumb. But, to defend his actions is even more stupid. To say that calling people a *** is OK or on the same level as calling someone a moron is, well, moronic.

I never said I knew everything. This is just another tactic you're using to take the focus off of what the discussion was about. It's another way for you to argue. Have fun, buddy, b/c I have no desire to argue with you and your constant hypotheticals.

Never said using the word *** is good, im simply saying its not the end of the world, and he has the right to say it. Sadly tho the govt is limiting what you can say, i recall the story in colorado i believe when a guy capsized in a canoe, swore and got sued by some scout pack i wanna say.

And toodles then

Frontman
06-21-2006, 07:49 PM
Now imagine if you were in an area where you were the only white person and someone started throwing around words like "cracker" or "honkey", do you think you would then feel imtimidated or offended?


You make it sound like that doesn't happen every day in this country? Please. Try working where you are the only white male in your department, and hear on a daily basis that type of moronic talk, then come talk to me about how its hard being black/a woman/gay/whatever. Its hard for quite a few white folks as well, as tough times and bad work enviroments don't descriminate.

Ignorant is ignorant; being hurtful is being hurtful. And no matter how you slice it, when you use a term that's offensive, be it the "n" word, "cracker," "slope," the "B or C" word, its hurtful. There have been a few times while I work I've said "enough is enough" when that type of talk is said, being the only white member of my department. I've sat there and shook my head, even a few times saying, "You know guys, if I said that about you, you'd be getting the union involved screaming racism." to which I get "Ah come on, its not the same, you're part of the majority." Thing of it is, when someone does say something out of line, I'm adult enough to know that the person speaking obviously is just ignorant and not worth the effort to even discuss it with them.

Whatever. Its still stupid talk when it happens. But as a society, we will forgive ignorant comments about whites or Catholics, but man do we ride to the defense of a black or a Jew if anything is said that is ignorant about one of them. We want equality? Fine, then we need to start being equal. A black man should get in the same amount of trouble for making fun of a "cracker" as I would if I made fun of a "N." Doesn't matter if the President is white, but a black person insulting a white person due to the color of his skin is no better than a white man doing the same to the black man.

Someday our society might pull its collective head our of our collective ass and realize that we should honestly try to look beyond the color of a person's skin and judge them for their actions or inactions instead.

Front

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 07:50 PM
Listen, the whole point of even bringing the usage thing up was this: it's a post not a term paper. No reason to be a dick and bring up grammar.

That person refuted that they said it. I'd like someone to refute the fact that a lot of people in that age group talk like that because that was my point. If I was going to be online longer I'd pull up random facebook and myspace profiles to prove it...
::Big Heavy Sigh::

From now on any point I throw your way will be on a boomerrang so at least I know I'll get it back.

Nobody will refute your statement that people of our generation talk in that way. Nobody will also refute that the people our of generation who do talk like that, sound like jackasses. I prefer to be aware of myself, part of that is being aware of the things that I say. I am sure I could go around and call people mother****ers all day, but how does that make me look? Rather, I'd prefer to sound educated and conduct myself in a civil way.

Maybe, just maybe, you can take a listen to yourself one day. This is what I did two years ago, I put a tape recorder in my pocket and listened to how I spoke for a whole day. I was sickened by it. I stopped using the language I used (though I do slip on occassion), and people find me more pleasant. I have more friends, and I have a much better time. I suggest that you do the same. Maybe then, our generation might have some hope.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:51 PM
Yet as you proved in a reply earlier, that using termenology to demean men, such as ****less scumbag or something, stating a man is less than a man, is OK? You have problems with the word because to you it makes u feel inferior, which is understandable, yet u are ok with other people being undermined and called terms that make them inferior. Implying a man has no penis and is like a girl like the insult u said would be ok is not nice, is offensive and should be disliked as much as ***

I apologize. I did not know that your **** were another word for penis. I assumed that the **** were another word for feces.

No, I don't think that castrating a man is acceptable either.

MarySwiss
06-21-2006, 07:51 PM
While I appreciate that, you so very eloquently took to task some ignorant people. I feel that you will be a great educator. :cool:

Second that!

rowand33
06-21-2006, 07:52 PM
It is not the same because as a white person, particularly male, you are in the majority and tend to be in a position of political power. The people in 'power' look like you.

Now imagine if you were in an area where you were the only white person and someone started throwing around words like "cracker" or "honkey", do you think you would then feel imtimidated or offended?

I would imagine if I were surronded by a bunch of men and they referred to me as only by the b or c words, I wouldn't be thrilled.

So it's ok to insult me because the majority of people have the same color skin, genitalia, and sexual orientation as I do?

How is that right?

I'm sorry, but it has to extend to everybody or it's bull****.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:53 PM
People call other people names when they are mad at them. I see no problem with calling people idiot, jerk, *******, ****er, or any other general term. However, when someone calls someone a ***, dyke, ******, kike, retard, wetback, etc...they are targeting a specific group and IMO, that is wrong.

Hey, if you are card-carrying ******* and are offended that I called Mariotti an *******, I apologize to you and all of the other *******s out there.

How are you not getting this concept?
How do u find it fine that there are 2 levels of offensiveness, either all offensive words are bad or all are allowable. Whatever insult or offensive word you use, hurts someone to a degree. Who declares what word is appropriate and what word is not, and dont gimme that society simply knows because most of those "banned" words were acceptable at a time.

I am done with this, nothing more to say on either side. I'll leave on this, headin off to the bar, and i will not be asking a survey if i can say ****, ****, dammit,son of a bitch, ******* or whatever words that someone could find offensive. If someone has problems, send me here
http://dailyablution.blogs.com/photos/blogpictures/camp1.gif
Have a nice day all, in a week, everyone will have forgotten this thread and controversey

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:54 PM
I apologize. I did not know that your **** were another word for penis. I assumed that the **** were another word for feces.

No, I don't think that castrating a man is acceptable either.

Tech the filter lets me use the word but i didnt wanna be banned for a technicality for filter violation

gbergman
06-21-2006, 07:54 PM
Well why doesnt espn interview carlos zambrano and ask him what it means in venezuela. He does play for the Cubs, and espn loves them. I personelly don't think this is that big of a deal. Whose not to say he thought *** was still a bundle of sticks, as it used to be. Sexual orientation is not the most important thing that makes a person. Character is, and Moronotti lacks that. Ozzie just used a poor choice of words in a media run society.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 07:55 PM
Someday our society might pull its collective head our of our collective ass and realize that we should honestly try to look beyond the color of a person's skin and judge them for their actions or inactions instead.

Front

You can add gender, faith, age, sexual orientation and probably a few other categories to that. Unfortunately, that day is far off. Until then, it is right to watch what you say and not try to demean anybody because they are different. It's hurtful and also, may I say, futile. Nothing good ever comes out of being an insensitive buffoon.

I'm done. Time to watch the White Sox.

Martinigirl
06-21-2006, 07:57 PM
So it's ok to insult me because the majority of people have the same color skin, genitalia, and sexual orientation as I do?

How is that right?

I'm sorry, but it has to extend to everybody or it's bull****.

You said it wasn't offensive to you, so I was pointing out why it may be offensive to other people who are not like you, or how your opinion may change in a different circumstance.

But slurs are slurs and shouldn't be used by anyone, including the manager or the White Sox.

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 07:57 PM
You can add gender, faith, age, sexual orientation and probably a few other categories to that. Unfortunately, that day is far off. Until then, it is right to watch what you say and not try to demean anybody because they are different. It's hurtful and also, may I say, futile. Nothing good ever comes out of being an insensitive buffoon.

I'm done. Time to watch the White Sox.

or as i said, nobody is different or special, everyone is the same

but agreed, go sox

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 07:57 PM
How do u find it fine that there are 2 levels of offensiveness, either all offensive words are bad or all are allowable. Whatever insult or offensive word you use, hurts someone to a degree. Who declares what word is appropriate and what word is not, and dont gimme that society simply knows because most of those "banned" words were acceptable at a time.

I am done with this, nothing more to say on either side. I'll leave on this, headin off to the bar, and i will not be asking a survey if i can say ****, ****, dammit,son of a bitch, ******* or whatever words that someone could find offensive. If someone has problems, send me here
I guess my point is, if you are going to offend someone offend only that person and not an entire group.

Edit: btw....I am also late for an engagement at the bar. Cheers to you Stockdale. Maybe someday we will see eye to eye.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 07:58 PM
Someday our society might pull its collective head our of our collective ass and realize that we should honestly try to look beyond the color of a person's skin and judge them for their actions or inactions instead.

Front
I think a pretty important figure in American History said something like that once. Wonder what he would think of how we are doing since he said that?

Frontman
06-21-2006, 07:58 PM
You can add gender, faith, age, sexual orientation and probably a few other categories to that. Unfortunately, that day is far off. Until then, it is right to watch what you say and not try to demean anybody because they are different. It's hurtful and also, may I say, futile. Nothing good ever comes out of being an insensitive buffoon.

I'm done. Time to watch the White Sox.

Problem is that I don't think we'll ever get there. Maybe the best example of it all is that no matter what opinon or skin color, sexual preference, age, faith, etc.; we're all signing off to go watch the same team.

Go GO White Sox!!!

Front

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 07:59 PM
I guess my point is, if you are going to offend someone offend only that person and not an entire group.

There are also different levels of offending someone. As I said earlier in this thread, if someone called me a moron, I'd equate that to a slap in the face. If someone used a racial or sexual or similar slur, I'd equate that to slashing me with a knife. Both may be inappropriate, but one is certainly worse than the other.

rowand33
06-21-2006, 08:03 PM
::Big Heavy Sigh::

From now on any point I throw your way will be on a boomerrang so at least I know I'll get it back.

Nobody will refute your statement that people of our generation talk in that way. Nobody will also refute that the people our of generation who do talk like that, sound like jackasses. I prefer to be aware of myself, part of that is being aware of the things that I say. I am sure I could go around and call people mother****ers all day, but how does that make me look? Rather, I'd prefer to sound educated and conduct myself in a civil way.

Maybe, just maybe, you can take a listen to yourself one day. This is what I did two years ago, I put a tape recorder in my pocket and listened to how I spoke for a whole day. I was sickened by it. I stopped using the language I used (though I do slip on occassion), and people find me more pleasant. I have more friends, and I have a much better time. I suggest that you do the same. Maybe then, our generation might have some hope.

No need for the sigh. I both agree with you and appreciate your post.

I never meant that it was right because young people did it; I just wanted to acknowledge that they did which people seemed to be unwilling to do. And the whole poitn of acknowledging it was just to sorta explain 1) why I don't really care about his comments and 2) why I think that a lot of people from that age group will be like "so what?"

And believe me when I say that I don't go out walking down the street like "**** you ***" "mother**** this, mother**** that." There's a time and a place and it certainly depends on the audience. I don't tell my parents to go **** themselves, I don't use that language at work, or with strangers.
But if I'm at the bar, or shooting the **** with my buddies in my apartment, or online... in any informal setting where I feel comfortable I'll speak with my filthy mouth if I want.

I'm done with this, and I apologize for any petty tangents that I've went off on.

Fuller_Schettman
06-21-2006, 08:11 PM
The thought of reading through 15 pages of this dreck makes me nauseous.

I hope Ozzie stands his ground. If people don't care for what he has to say, there is another team in town that will be happy to welcome them.

This PC World Gone Mad is beyond ridiculous. I wish people would grow some skin already!

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 08:12 PM
The thought of reading through 15 pages of this dreck makes me nauseous.

I hope Ozzie stands his ground. If people don't care for what he has to say, there is another team in town that will be happy to welcome them.

This PC World Gone Mad is beyond ridiculous. I wish people would grow some skin already!

You need to take the time and read some of the stuff written in this thread.

Craig Grebeck
06-21-2006, 08:33 PM
He's been in the country for a long time now, he knows what it means. Ozzie never really pays attention to what he says, but it's always written off as "Ozzie being Ozzie." Well, now it's Ozzie using offensive slurs and something needs to be done.

soxruleEP
06-21-2006, 08:43 PM
The thought of reading through 15 pages of this dreck makes me nauseous.

I hope Ozzie stands his ground. If people don't care for what he has to say, there is another team in town that will be happy to welcome them.

This PC World Gone Mad is beyond ridiculous. I wish people would grow some skin already!

It is not "PC Gone Mad" to consider it offensive to use a term that describes a group of people (as used by them to refer to one another to defuse its power) as an insult. I cannot understand how calling something "gay" became a generalized insult.

That is the essence of what Ozzie did. I am second to none in my admiration for Ozzie as a baseball man, but he chose the wrong word here. He should have called the Moron an ******* and left it at that.

Fuller_Schettman
06-21-2006, 09:07 PM
It is not "PC Gone Mad" to consider it offensive to use a term that describes a group of people (as used by them to refer to one another to defuse its power) as an insult. I cannot understand how calling something "gay" became a generalized insult.

That is the essence of what Ozzie did. I am second to none in my admiration for Ozzie as a baseball man, but he chose the wrong word here. He should have called the Moron an ******* and left it at that.
You must not have kids. Fact is that it has become a generalized insult. In this country. That is how kids speak today. At least, kids in the Bay Area, CA.

For instance, I did not know this until recently, but apparently my kids attend a gay school. I know this because they and their friends are always calling it that!

Fuller_Schettman
06-21-2006, 09:10 PM
You need to take the time and read some of the stuff written in this thread.

I'm sure you are right about that. But then I would be as pissed as you probably are right about now. :wink:

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 09:11 PM
I guess my point is, if you are going to offend someone offend only that person and not an entire group.

Edit: btw....I am also late for an engagement at the bar. Cheers to you Stockdale. Maybe someday we will see eye to eye.

Unless yer 5"10, there may be trouble :redneck

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 09:13 PM
I'm actually wondering how many people are reading this thread from start to finish. And if there is anybody, how long did it take you to get to this useless post?

SoxEd
06-21-2006, 09:16 PM
I'm actually wondering how many people are reading this thread from start to finish. And if there is anybody, how long did it take you to get to this useless post?


All 40 pages of it?
:cower:

Not me sir.
No way.

It'd probably just remind me of the Flame Wars on the old PI board in 2004, and depress me and make me want to go and :gulp:.

MiamiSpartan
06-21-2006, 09:30 PM
Mariotti is definately a jerk, but speaking as a gay man, PLEASE don't lump him in with us. We don't need him. You can keep him over on your side. Please.

That being said, Ozzie's gay slurs are getting kind of old. He sure as hell better win the World Series again this year if he's going to make comments like that.

TheOldRoman
06-21-2006, 09:58 PM
It really is. This thread has gone a long way to prove many stereotypes of Sox fans to be true, unfortunately. That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Seriously, get over yourself.

I might be walking the thin line of the roadhouse, and I appoligize if I doom this thread here. You have mentioned in a few of your posts that using the term *** in the way Ozzie did, with a negative connotation, implies that there is something wrong with gays, or being gay is wrong. I would agree with that assesment. However, you then go on to say that those people are wrong, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. That is your OPINION, and other people are allowed to have them. The fact is, for many many people, homosexuality is considered wrong. They can have this belief for many reason - religious, social, or anything else. As long as they don't preach hate, call for violence, or infringe on the rights of those people, they are perfectly justified in having that belief (and, no, I am not condoning using offensive terms in public). It doesn't make them cavemen, uneducated, ignorant, unsophisticated, or any worse than you. It is acceptable for them to have those beliefs as long as they don't do stupid **** like buy the "world's largest gay bar" t-shirt or do other things to offend people.

I believe PH13 said, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that she talked with Carl Everett. She obviously disagreed with his beliefs on homosexuality, but she respected him as a person, and respected his right to have those beliefs. A thinks B is wrong, B thinks A is wrong. Nobody is the ultimate authority. Ilsox7 does not get to decide that so and so is a horrible person because of his particular belief. And for the record, I do not believe that being gay is inherantly wrong. However, I do not judge those who do believe that.

Let me say that I greatly admire PH13. I am a straight man myself, and I can't imagine the things she has gone through. I admire her because she can say "I don't care if you think it is right or not, I am who I am." It takes a lot of guts to do that. I certainly have respect for anyone who stands up for themselves and doesn't become what society tells them to.

Now, to the issue at hand. Ozzie screwed up. According to him, the term *** has nothing to do with one's sexual preference in Venezuela. It means spineless, gutless, not a real man. That describes Mariotti to a tee. Ozzie, in his mind, wasn't implying that any gay men had those traits. I also believe that Ozzie was sincere about not knowing the American meaning of the word (based on Couch's column). He explained what it meant to him, and appologized to anyone who he might have offended. I can accept that.

However, Ozzie should have known better. He shouldn't have used the word. He should have learned what it meant in America before he used it. He should know how people will react to his words before he says them. He is the face of this franchise, and he put us in a negative light with those comments. That word should never be used in a public setting in this country, no matter what. I cannot tell anyone not to be offended, but I don't think people should get offended given the circumstances. It wasn't like Ozzie casually used the word in the way many Americans do, to mean dumb, weak, not cool, etc. The word has a completely different meaning to him.

This is egg on the face of the Sox, but these is nothing homophobic about Ozzie's comments. I hope his comments don't turn gay people off of the White Sox. What Ozzie said was wrong, and he should be fined, but I think a suspension is out of line.

spawn
06-21-2006, 10:02 PM
Reading all of the pages in this thread, I am amazed at what having a winning baseball team will do to people. It allows you to look away as the manager of said team uses a term that is offensive to a group of people. I am both encouraged and disgusted with what I have read. To those of you that have taken Ozzie to task while not disling or hating him for what he said, and you know who you are, my hats off to you. You guys make me proud. To those saying"it's just words" or "Ozzie needs to stick to his guns", etc...well, be very fortunate you haven't had to worry about being subjected to discrimination and bigotry. Believe me, it's not at all enjoyable.

I'm done.

Fuller_Schettman
06-21-2006, 10:23 PM
That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Seriously, get over yourself.

I might be walking the thin line of the roadhouse, and I appoligize if I doom this thread here. You have mentioned in a few of your posts that using the term *** in the way Ozzie did, with a negative connotation, implies that there is something wrong with gays, or being gay is wrong. I would agree with that assesment. However, you then go on to say that those people are wrong, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. That is your OPINION, and other people are allowed to have them. The fact is, for many many people, homosexuality is considered wrong. They can have this belief for many reason - religious, social, or anything else. As long as they don't preach hate, call for violence, or infringe on the rights of those people, they are perfectly justified in having that belief (and, no, I am not condoning using offensive terms in public). It doesn't make them cavemen, uneducated, ignorant, unsophisticated, or any worse than you. It is acceptable for them to have those beliefs as long as they don't do stupid **** like buy the "world's largest gay bar" t-shirt or do other things to offend people.

I believe PH13 said, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that she talked with Carl Everett. She obviously disagreed with his beliefs on homosexuality, but she respected him as a person, and respected his right to have those beliefs. A thinks B is wrong, B thinks A is wrong. Nobody is the ultimate authority. Ilsox7 does not get to decide that so and so is a horrible person because of his particular belief. And for the record, I do not believe that being gay is inherantly wrong. However, I do not judge those who do believe that.

Let me say that I greatly admire PH13. I am a straight man myself, and I can't imagine the things she has gone through. I admire her because she can say "I don't care if you think it is right or not, I am who I am." It takes a lot of guts to do that. I certainly have respect for anyone who stands up for themselves and doesn't become what society tells them to.

Now, to the issue at hand. Ozzie screwed up. According to him, the term *** has nothing to do with one's sexual preference in Venezuela. It means spineless, gutless, not a real man. That describes Mariotti to a tee. Ozzie, in his mind, wasn't implying that any gay men had those traits. I also believe that Ozzie was sincere about not knowing the American meaning of the word (based on Couch's column). He explained what it meant to him, and appologized to anyone who he might have offended. I can accept that.

However, Ozzie should have known better. He shouldn't have used the word. He should have learned what it meant in America before he used it. He should know how people will react to his words before he says them. He is the face of this franchise, and he put us in a negative light with those comments. That word should never be used in a public setting in this country, no matter what. I cannot tell anyone not to be offended, but I don't think people should get offended given the circumstances. It wasn't like Ozzie casually used the word in the way many Americans do, to mean dumb, weak, not cool, etc. The word has a completely different meaning to him.

This is egg on the face of the Sox, but these is nothing homophobic about Ozzie's comments. I hope his comments don't turn gay people off of the White Sox. What Ozzie said was wrong, and he should be fined, but I think a suspension is out of line.

POTW material right here folks!

oeo
06-21-2006, 10:34 PM
I seriously cannot believe this thing is still going. I think it's time to give it up. What Ozzie said was wrong, it offended some people, he apologized, so lets get on with our lives. This is all opinions, and I can't believe this, "i'm right, you're wrong," stuff continues. It feels like I have been hearing about this for weeks, and it's only been one day.

NSSoxFan
06-21-2006, 10:36 PM
I seriously cannot believe this thing is still going. I think it's time to give it up. What Ozzie said was wrong, it offended some people, he apologized, so lets get on with our lives. This is all opinions, and I can't believe this, "i'm right, you're wrong," stuff continues. It feels like I have been hearing about this for weeks, and it's only been one day.

Amen. Nothing good can come of this thread anymore. It's a horrible situation, we need to move on.

Lip Man 1
06-21-2006, 11:18 PM
Some observations as the day has progressed:

1. Kudos to Greg Couch. Apparently he had the gonads to tell Ozzie last night that he was going to write this column and he also gave Ozzie a chance to correct, take back or modify his statement. That's the way the business is supposed to operate. He acted properly and did himself proud. I still disagree with making this a big issue but my regards for him has gone up because of his conduct.

2. I'm puzzled by the fact that the media and many of my friends here at WSI seem to be so outraged over Ozzie's comment yet I didn't see the same response when Dusty Baker made his comment about dark skinned athletes being better able to play the game under hot conditions because of their skin color.

I was offended by that remark. It belittled every white athlete from Walter Johnson to Stan Musial to Ted Williams to Sandy Koufax to Roger Clemens.

Where were the posts calling for Dusty's suspension?

That's a double standard folks...it's just as wrong and offensive as Ozzie's remark. Fair is fair isn't it gang?

3. Apparently Mariotti has now lost it. Teddy Greenstein has a column out now that quotes Mariotti as ripping and condemming his own Sun-Times employers. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. He apparently thinks he's bigger then his job, his employers, the teams that he 'so called' covers and the media business in general.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060621greenstein2,1,4147501.column?coll=cs-home-utility

Lip

soxruleEP
06-21-2006, 11:20 PM
You must not have kids. Fact is that it has become a generalized insult. In this country. That is how kids speak today. At least, kids in the Bay Area, CA.

For instance, I did not know this until recently, but apparently my kids attend a gay school. I know this because they and their friends are always calling it that!

I know they use it that way; I expressed my lack of understanding as to why it turned into that usage.

Hendu
06-21-2006, 11:22 PM
This is pretty embarassing. I think Ozzie needs to be fined by the Sox (not MLB) and JR and Ozzie should make some gestures to the gay community (donation to charity, sending representatives to the gay games, giving away some tickets, etc). Hopefully this whole thing should blow over.

Also, hopefully Ozzie will learn his lesson that he has to be more careful with the words he chooses. I mean, he's not some guy in a bar talking to his buddies. He's wearing a Sox uniform and representing this organization during the press conferences. He needs to be smarter.

soxruleEP
06-21-2006, 11:29 PM
Some observations as the day has progressed:

2. I'm puzzled by the fact that the media and many of my friends here at WSI seem to be so outraged over Ozzie's comment yet I didn't see the same response when Dusty Baker made his comment about dark skinned athletes being better able to play the game under hot conditions because of their skin color.

I was offended by that remark. It belittled every white athlete from Walter Johnson to Stan Musial to Ted Williams to Sandy Koufax to Roger Clemens.

Where were the posts calling for Dusty's suspension?

That's a double standard folks...it's just as wrong and offensive as Ozzie's remark. Fair is fair isn't it gang?

Lip

I hope you intended that as satire, Lip, because I don't see the connection at all, except that both comments share a certain level of general stupidity and lack of understanding of the exigencies of contemporary media culture.

Ozzie's comment used a label for a group of people as an insult, while Dusty comment was, well, I'm hard pressed to characterize it. It was bad history, faulty logic, a non sequitor, and a number of other things, but it's not the same thing.

Yes, they're both offensive, but Dusty's comment is not offensive in the same way as Ozzie's. And I do recall a level of outrage at the time.

But as so many people point out here all the time, who cares about the Cubs?

Lip Man 1
06-21-2006, 11:30 PM
Mercy:

I just got to your post. Obviously you missed the part where I explained I'm from Chicago. Born and raised on the South Side, 2615 W. 47th Street and 4340 S. Honore. 'Back of the Yards...'

Yea I don't know anything about this issue...

You must have also missed my post where I explained how I was told I was not going to be considered for a media position because the news director needed to hire a female.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-21-2006, 11:34 PM
SoxruleEP:

A wrong is a wrong is a wrong...no? There's right and wrong. Correct and incorrect.

There are no degrees of 'wrong...'

If Ozzie's statement was wrong because it was offensive and folks want his head...fine. I'm saying I found Dusty's remarks offensive. Where was the outcry for his head on a platter?

You can't have it both ways because you happen to agree or disagree with a statement.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. End of discussion.

Lip

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 11:37 PM
Some observations as the day has progressed:

1. Kudos to Greg Couch. Apparently he had the gonads to tell Ozzie last night that he was going to write this column and he also gave Ozzie a chance to correct, take back or modify his statement. That's the way the business is supposed to operate. He acted properly and did himself proud. I still disagree with making this a big issue but my regards for him has gone up because of his conduct.

2. I'm puzzled by the fact that the media and many of my friends here at WSI seem to be so outraged over Ozzie's comment yet I didn't see the same response when Dusty Baker made his comment about dark skinned athletes being better able to play the game under hot conditions because of their skin color.

I was offended by that remark. It belittled every white athlete from Walter Johnson to Stan Musial to Ted Williams to Sandy Koufax to Roger Clemens.

Where were the posts calling for Dusty's suspension?

That's a double standard folks...it's just as wrong and offensive as Ozzie's remark. Fair is fair isn't it gang?

3. Apparently Mariotti has now lost it. Teddy Greenstein has a column out now that quotes Mariotti as ripping and condemming his own Sun-Times employers. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. He apparently thinks he's bigger then his job, his employers, the teams that he 'so called' covers and the media business in general.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060621greenstein2,1,4147501.column?coll=cs-home-utility

Lip

I liked the comment by Greenstein that admittedly the threats to Moronotti's physical safety were not from anybody currently connected with the club. You're damn right they weren't. I hope somebody still has the tape of that confrontation with Tony Phillips (that'll tell you how long it's been since the Moron has been in the Sox club house). It's priceless!

WSox8404
06-21-2006, 11:37 PM
Oh, My Sweet Lord!

I'm not even going to try to deal with all of this, but let's just hit the high spots:

"people would quit being so damned sensitive about being called a retard or a ***."
I'm not going near the "***" part--we've been there today, but next time you meet someone who has a good friend or family member with a learning disability, why not explain to them why "retard" is not hurtful?

"being used as part of the american youth vernacular shouldn't offend people."
Thanks for explaining that to those of us who are not part of the "American youth vernacular." I think I'll step back and let some of the other WSI members of your age group take you apart on that one--and I'm sure they will.

"People need to find better things to do with their time than bitch about Ozzie calling some douche bag a ***"
"Douche bag? nothing offensive about that one either, I guess.

"Everybody I know says stuff like "**** you ***" or "what are you a retard" to each other all the time. Nobody means anything by it."
"Everybody?" "Nobody?" Those are absolutes, and absolutes are always wrong.

BTW, a heads-up. I would think that by the time someone gets to college, they would know that "American" is a proper noun, therefore always capitalized.

Everything he said is right on the money. Everyone I know my age and a little older and a little younger talks that way. I am also 21. Its the way we talk. We do not mean it literally. Its just the way it is. And if people cannot understand that, then that is their problem.

infohawk
06-21-2006, 11:39 PM
It's not a matter of being "politically correct" in the words of some here; it's a matter of maturity and being polite.

There used to be a saying "If you can't say something good, don't say nothing at all". Maybe that needs to come back into play. I think this is a reasonable way of looking at it. Here's my take. Clearly Ozzie shouldn't have used the term because it does violate a certain code of social politeness.

HOWEVER, I will say that it is equally disgraceful that we have come to a point in society where it is a veritable cottage industry for people to come out so aggressively on behalf of those who were or should be "offended" by something someone said or wrote. The fact that Greg Couch instantly transitioned from "this is what Ozzie said" to "punish him, punish him" is just evidence that a web of intimidation has been erected to be wielded by and on behalf of those who have been offended.

Most of us are perfectly capable of recognizing that something was distasteful without a bunch of media types endlessly shouting in our faces about what is or isn't appropriate. We're not stupid and can think for ourselves. I don't need for Ozzie to be suspended or raked over the coals by the media in order for me to teach my stepson that certain words should largely be out of bounds in polite conversation. The absolute panic and amplified level of outrage about things like this are, in their own way, just as bad as the careless use of words in the first place.

WSox8404
06-21-2006, 11:39 PM
My dad, a retired Chicago Police Officer, was my other role model. I admired Ozzie for his talent and I don't see anything wrong with that. Obviously you admire them(athletes) in some form otherwise you wouldn't be here.

I DO NOT idolize athletes. Sports is something that takes me away from the daily grind of life. I never have and never will idolize an athlete. They are getting paid for something they like to do. No **** most are gonna come off as nice for giving some money to charities or being nice to kids in a hospital. For Christ's sake they should all do that. IMHO they all should donate 10% of every check to charity. No, sorry. No athletes are role models.

soxruleEP
06-21-2006, 11:51 PM
SoxruleEP:

A wrong is a wrong is a wrong...no? There's right and wrong. Correct and incorrect.

There are no degrees of 'wrong...'

If Ozzie's statement was wrong because it was offensive and folks want his head...fine. I'm saying I found Dusty's remarks offensive. Where was the outcry for his head on a platter?

You can't have it both ways because you happen to agree or disagree with a statement.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. End of discussion.

Lip

Lip--

There are absolutely degrees of wrong. We do not punish murder the same way we punish jay-walking (no pun intended); yet, both are wrong. "Wrong is wrong" is a tautology that is hard to refute. Blue is also blue, but there are many shades of it.

And you will note I did not say that Dusty wasn't wrong. I said the statements are qualatatively different.

I was offended by Dusty as well; stupidity in all its forms offends me. However, his was a comment that caused me to scratch my head; Ozzie's made me wince.

And, please show me in my comment where I gave any indication of any degree of agreement with Dusty. You may have been intending that to be the generalized "you." That is fine; however, you have set up a straw man argument there. Ozzie doen't need to get his head on a platter as far as I am concerned, but he needs to stop using group identifiers as an insult.

soxruleEP
06-21-2006, 11:54 PM
Most of us are perfectly capable or recognizing that something was distasteful without a bunch of media types endlessly shouting in our faces about what is or isn't appropriate. We're not stupid and can think for ourselves. I don't need for Ozzie to be suspended or raked over the coals by the media in order for me to teach my stepson that certain words should largely be out of bounds in polite conversation. The absolute panic and amplified level of outrage about things like this are, in their own way, just as bad as the careless use of words in the first place.

Some of the most insightful words on the subject written here today.

Viva Medias B's
06-21-2006, 11:54 PM
3. Apparently Mariotti has now lost it. Teddy Greenstein has a column out now that quotes Mariotti as ripping and condemming his own Sun-Times employers. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. He apparently thinks he's bigger then his job, his employers, the teams that he 'so called' covers and the media business in general.

Calling out your own employer in public = usually a move that results in termination. Of course, ripping your boss in public does not always result in disclipline (see North, Mike). However, most people would risk their jobs doing this. Granted, what Mariotti said to Mully and Hanley is somewhat mild. However, could it give the Sun-Times the excuse it needs to fire Mariotti? I doubt it. The more controversy Mariotti spews, the more newspapers he sells.

soxruleEP
06-22-2006, 12:00 AM
Everything he said is right on the money. Everyone I know my age and a little older and a little younger talks that way. I am also 21. Its the way we talk. We do not mean it literally. Its just the way it is. And if people cannot understand that, then that is their problem.

So your inability to empathize with any one's discomfort over your choice of words is my problem?

I hope you are never on the other side of that equation for your own happiness; however, it might help you as travel along life's way if you did have that experience.

Language has the capacity to cause harm. It creates the way the world is viewed. Most young people I work with are very tolerant and accepting. But I hope that the day is coming when using "gay" as a negative modifier is not a part of slang.

JB98
06-22-2006, 12:42 AM
I wish Ozzie, Hawk and everyone else associated with the Sox organization would just ignore Moronotti. Nothing good comes from a war of words with that guy. Nothing.

I have to admit I wasn't offended by what Guillen said. I don't buy into this namby-pamby stuff about language being hurtful. I've probably been called every name in the book at one point or another, and somehow, I've managed to survive.

I'd be a hypocrite if I were to criticize Ozzie because I'm certain I've used language that might be considered offensive to others. I wonder how many of the people throwing stones at Ozzie right now are living in a glass house.

SouthSide_HitMen
06-22-2006, 01:17 AM
3. Apparently Mariotti has now lost it. Teddy Greenstein has a column out now that quotes Mariotti as ripping and condemming his own Sun-Times employers. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. He apparently thinks he's bigger then his job, his employers, the teams that he 'so called' covers and the media business in general.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060621greenstein2,1,4147501.column?coll=cs-home-utility

Lip


Reported here at 10:30 am - WSI - Your only source for complete, accurate news first.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1195957&postcount=98

As far as Dusty's comments go they show an ignorance toward his job - he is paid to manage a major league ballclub yet thinks his players play better when it is hot or cold based on race. Ozzie made an ignorant statement, Dusty made an ignorant baseball assessment.

I question whether Ozzie should have frank conversations with the media in the future but do not question his competence to run a team. I question Dusty on both accounts.

Deuce
06-22-2006, 01:45 AM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward

A SIX PACK!

Deuce
06-22-2006, 01:57 AM
To sum it all up, I leave you with the immortal words of Mister Senor Love Daddy:

http://watchitathome.com/img/thumb-samuel.l.jackson.png

"Whoa! Y'all take a chill! You got to cool that **** off! And that's the double-truth, Ruth!"

voodoochile
06-22-2006, 01:57 AM
Anyone who doesn't realize the word *** is offensive to a resonably large percentage of the population here in America is either being intentionally obtuse for the sake of argument or is just plain stupid, IMO.

Anyone who defends use of said word on whatever grounds when the lights are on and the cameras are rolling has obviously had their head in the sand for the past few decades. We live in a world of instant news. Remember the brawl with the flubbies? I couldn't see it because I was blacked out... for about 15 minutes and then there was a link to the whole video on the Internet.

Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between calling someone a generic insult (*******, mother****er, sonofabitch, etc.) and one which has negative connotations to an entire group of people be that because of skin color, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. is simply clueless about what makes society, society. We live in a world held together by certain codes and certain mores. We live in a country with a social compact that includes the protection of civil liberties based on these exact concepts. To defend the attack on Moronotti as "Ozzie being Ozzie" or "Well the word means something else too" (see paragraph number 1) or "I don't think he meant it that way" or "who cares, get over it, it's old news already" shows a complete lack of understanding of some of the basic pillers of our own country's founding principles. It's simply and succinctly indefensible.

Should Ozzie be suspended? No, not IMO. Should he be fined? I leave that to JR. Should he be handed a typewritten apology from whoever runs the PR department of the Sox and forced to read it? Absofreakinglutely. Should that apology be to Mariotti? No, it should be to anyone else he offended by saying what he said. Then he should be free to expound on his feelings for Jay Marriotti in any other fashion he seems fit, provided the speech has been cleared by the PR department first. He should take no questions. He should simply leave and let the PR department handle the rest.

Oh and one more time... **** Jay Moronotti. He's a ****ing turd (with apologies to all the turds of the world... you know who you are... :tongue: )

voodoochile
06-22-2006, 02:06 AM
Oh and for the record, apparently Ozzie has apologized...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491

swanson24
06-22-2006, 02:13 AM
I was disappointed to hear Ozzie use that word again I thought he would have learned his lesson about using that word around the media when he used it last year in New York against the Yankees. I do like Ozzie Guillen he is the best manager we have had in a long long while on the South Side and I don't think we could have won a championship without him but he needs to calm down and do two things. First Ozzie needs to avoid using that word in the future around the media and number two and this can go out toward the entire organization as a whole PLEASE IGNORE JAY MARIOTTI!!!!! I know Ozzie, Kenny, Jerry, Hawk and most Sox fans don't like him but constantly talking about Jay just makes things worse. He is a sports columnist paid to write controversial articles about ALL CHICAGO TEAMS! The sooner this White Sox organization can learn that the sooner we can have off the field comments overshadow the success of our ballclub.

Deuce
06-22-2006, 02:19 AM
Oh and for the record, apparently Ozzie has apologized...
You see, this is even more proof that his word usage is based on his Venezuelan heritage... a real American would never apologize.

:redneck

vegyrex
06-22-2006, 02:25 AM
Oh and for the record, apparently Ozzie has apologized...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491
That's good enough for me!

Now Ozzie and Hawk need to ignore that moron.

Winning another Championship is way more improtant than anything that fool writes.

DrCrawdad
06-22-2006, 02:37 AM
Anyone who doesn't realize the word *** is offensive to a resonably large percentage of the population here in America is either being intentionally obtuse for the sake of argument or is just plain stupid, IMO.

Anyone who defends use of said word on whatever grounds when the lights are on and the cameras are rolling has obviously had their head in the sand for the past few decades. We live in a world of instant news. Remember the brawl with the flubbies? I couldn't see it because I was blacked out... for about 15 minutes and then there was a link to the whole video on the Internet.

Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between calling someone a generic insult (*******, mother****er, sonofabitch, etc.) and one which has negative connotations to an entire group of people be that because of skin color, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. is simply clueless about what makes society, society. We live in a world held together by certain codes and certain mores. We live in a country with a social compact that includes the protection of civil liberties based on these exact concepts. To defend the attack on Moronotti as "Ozzie being Ozzie" or "Well the word means something else too" (see paragraph number 1) or "I don't think he meant it that way" or "who cares, get over it, it's old news already" shows a complete lack of understanding of some of the basic pillers of our own country's founding principles. It's simply and succinctly indefensible.

Should Ozzie be suspended? No, not IMO. Should he be fined? I leave that to JR. Should he be handed a typewritten apology from whoever runs the PR department of the Sox and forced to read it? Absofreakinglutely. Should that apology be to Mariotti? No, it should be to anyone else he offended by saying what he said. Then he should be free to expound on his feelings for Jay Marriotti in any other fashion he seems fit, provided the speech has been cleared by the PR department first. He should take no questions. He should simply leave and let the PR department handle the rest.

Oh and one more time... **** Jay Moronotti. He's a ****ing turd (with apologies to all the turds of the world... you know who you are... :tongue: )

I agree. Moronotti is a :dtroll:. The best advice is not engage the :dtroll: in any way. It only helps the :dtroll:.

The Sun-Times and the :dtroll: are loving all of this.

CLR01
06-22-2006, 02:40 AM
You must not have kids. Fact is that it has become a generalized insult. In this country. That is how kids speak today. At least, kids in the Bay Area, CA.

For instance, I did not know this until recently, but apparently my kids attend a gay school. I know this because they and their friends are always calling it that!


At some point in their life most people grow up and realize that some words are offensive and inappropriate. Apparently your kids and a few people here have not reached that point yet.

Also who cares what the kids are running around and calling each other? Ozzie is not one of them.

CLR01
06-22-2006, 02:42 AM
I'm actually wondering how many people are reading this thread from start to finish. And if there is anybody, how long did it take you to get to this useless post?


Sadly I have read about 98% of the posts. It took me most of the afternoon and evening because I kept getting headaches reading some of the responses and had to move on to something else for a while.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 03:22 AM
That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Seriously, get over yourself.

I might be walking the thin line of the roadhouse, and I appoligize if I doom this thread here. You have mentioned in a few of your posts that using the term *** in the way Ozzie did, with a negative connotation, implies that there is something wrong with gays, or being gay is wrong. I would agree with that assesment. However, you then go on to say that those people are wrong, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. That is your OPINION, and other people are allowed to have them. The fact is, for many many people, homosexuality is considered wrong. They can have this belief for many reason - religious, social, or anything else. As long as they don't preach hate, call for violence, or infringe on the rights of those people, they are perfectly justified in having that belief (and, no, I am not condoning using offensive terms in public). It doesn't make them cavemen, uneducated, ignorant, unsophisticated, or any worse than you. It is acceptable for them to have those beliefs as long as they don't do stupid **** like buy the "world's largest gay bar" t-shirt or do other things to offend people.

I believe PH13 said, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that she talked with Carl Everett. She obviously disagreed with his beliefs on homosexuality, but she respected him as a person, and respected his right to have those beliefs. A thinks B is wrong, B thinks A is wrong. Nobody is the ultimate authority. Ilsox7 does not get to decide that so and so is a horrible person because of his particular belief. And for the record, I do not believe that being gay is inherantly wrong. However, I do not judge those who do believe that.

Let me say that I greatly admire PH13. I am a straight man myself, and I can't imagine the things she has gone through. I admire her because she can say "I don't care if you think it is right or not, I am who I am." It takes a lot of guts to do that. I certainly have respect for anyone who stands up for themselves and doesn't become what society tells them to.

Now, to the issue at hand. Ozzie screwed up. According to him, the term *** has nothing to do with one's sexual preference in Venezuela. It means spineless, gutless, not a real man. That describes Mariotti to a tee. Ozzie, in his mind, wasn't implying that any gay men had those traits. I also believe that Ozzie was sincere about not knowing the American meaning of the word (based on Couch's column). He explained what it meant to him, and appologized to anyone who he might have offended. I can accept that.

However, Ozzie should have known better. He shouldn't have used the word. He should have learned what it meant in America before he used it. He should know how people will react to his words before he says them. He is the face of this franchise, and he put us in a negative light with those comments. That word should never be used in a public setting in this country, no matter what. I cannot tell anyone not to be offended, but I don't think people should get offended given the circumstances. It wasn't like Ozzie casually used the word in the way many Americans do, to mean dumb, weak, not cool, etc. The word has a completely different meaning to him.

This is egg on the face of the Sox, but these is nothing homophobic about Ozzie's comments. I hope his comments don't turn gay people off of the White Sox. What Ozzie said was wrong, and he should be fined, but I think a suspension is out of line.

http://sefer.sunyconnect.suny.edu/olis/sunyergy/images/hands-clapping.gif
bravo and amen
other than the fining

Mercy!
06-22-2006, 04:21 AM
So Ozzie compares gay people to child molesters and then says he didn't mean anything bad by it. It's different in Venezuela. Uh, okay. Ozzie calls someone a ****ing *** in anger and then says "I don't have anything against those people." It's different in Venezuela. Yeah, right.

I've read every post in these two threads for now. I note that only two people felt free enough to identify themselves as gay (I'm a third), although I know there are others here. Do you ever wonder why more of us aren't out to you?

Regarding the same sorry people who keep posting endless variations on "you shouldn't be offended, just get over it, I call people **** all the time and it doesn't mean anything" - I feel at some point continuing to try to engage these posters on a rational level is a lost cause. They "get it," really they do. I say please stop giving them a platform for their bigotry.

I love this photo for many reasons. Feel free to discuss what it means to you.

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/upload/whitesox-thumb.jpg

Chrisaway
06-22-2006, 04:34 AM
Im not even gonna chime in on this one cause itll probably get me banned. Lighten up people.

jenn2080
06-22-2006, 08:08 AM
I wont even get into this picture and what it means to me, because it means nothing. It is his son for Christ sakes.

Realist
06-22-2006, 08:38 AM
I've only read the first 3 pages of this thread and that's all I'm going to read. I imagine every point of view was probably covered there.

Last nite I had the opportunity to finally ask my friend that is both gay and a huge Sox fan what he thought of Ozzie's comments about the Moron. He paused for a second.... rolled his eyes skyward and said, "I don't care about that. I just want them to keep hitting the way they've been!"

Keep in mind that he's about 60 years old and very confident in who he is as both a man and a person. That probably plays a big factor on who was offended and who wasn't. Also, don't forget that many of those chirping up about Ozzie's comment are probably getting off on the fact that Ozzie just put the garden hose to their "political super soaker" and they can't help but pull the trigger. I imagine that must be one hell of a rush.

We should all hope that Ozzie once again throws the spotlight on himself several times this season and keeps allowing our boys to play their game. Maybe next time he can say something nasty about Eastern Europeans that will get the media's nose out of joint and I can roll my eyes skyward while Uribe goes ape crap over each cookie tossed his way.

Go Sox!

spawn
06-22-2006, 08:39 AM
I love this photo for many reasons. Feel free to discuss what it means to you.

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/upload/whitesox-thumb.jpg

To me, it means he loves his son.

Realist
06-22-2006, 08:46 AM
To me, it means he loves his son.

That's it. Nothing more.

The idiot fans at the Tiger's site love to make more out if it, but then again, they wouldn't be idiot Tiger's fans if they didn't.

Erik The Red
06-22-2006, 08:51 AM
I love this photo for many reasons. Feel free to discuss what it means to you.

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/upload/whitesox-thumb.jpg

Um, that he's kissing his son?

Am I missing something here?

harwar
06-22-2006, 09:10 AM
It looks like the feeding frenzy on Ozzie has started because the top story on just about every baseball web site is all about what a moronic blabber-mouth he is.
It looks like the people who hate the White Sox finally found a way to try and bring them down.
If you can't get them damn White Sox to stop winning then you attack them every way possible.It used to that,in the clubhouse after or before a game,the press would cover for a guy that spoke out of turn,so to speak.
No longer i guess.
The media loved Ozzie because he always had something intetesting to say and that made their jobs easier.I think that Ozzie should just give one word answers from now on and stop helping them.
Ozzie appologized and it should be over but some won't let it go.
Its time to move on and get on with winning the pennant again.

mccoydp
06-22-2006, 09:15 AM
Its just the way it is. And if people cannot understand that, then that is their problem.

No, it's your ****ing problem. Quit minimizing the effects that derogatory language have on people. Quit making excuses for lazy, insensitive, boorish speech.

harwar
06-22-2006, 09:18 AM
I love this photo for many reasons. Feel free to discuss what it means to you.

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/upload/whitesox-thumb.jpg
It means that Ozzie and his son are not afraid to show affection in public.
I fished out of key west,fla. for years and gay couples showing affection were a common occurrence.I'm sorry most of the country isn't like that but its not all Ozzies' fault.

MsSoxVixen22
06-22-2006, 09:20 AM
I was alittle upset when I heard what Ozzie called Mariotti. I for one, don't use that word. I don't say ****** either, one of my best friends is black. I think in the heat of the moment, Ozzie said something he shouldn't have. Ozzie should know better, he should watch what he says around the media. If anything if I was Ozzie I would've just called Jay an ******* or a piece of **** (like he did) and just leave it at that.

Kilroy
06-22-2006, 09:26 AM
Quit minimizing the effects that derogatory language have on people. Quit making excuses for lazy, insensitive, boorish speech.

In general, people need to stop being "offended" every time they hear someone say something that they consider derogatory about their particular group. Words like that only have power when people react to them by being so offended, hurt or having 30 page discussions about them. Ignore them and they have no power.

Stop talking about it.

jenn2080
06-22-2006, 09:28 AM
I see this thread being Roadhoused soon...at least I hope. This is something know one is going to see eye to eye on.

DaveIsHere
06-22-2006, 09:30 AM
In general, people need to stop being "offended" every time they hear someone say something that they consider derogatory about their particular group. Words like that only have power when people react to them by being so offended, hurt or having 30 page discussions about them. Ignore them and they have no power.

Stop talking about it.

Agreed, Our society has become a bunch of PC, sensitive wussies. Which you can probably blame on the media for blowing eveything out of proportion.

Ozzie apologized what else do you want him to do? He cant take back what he said...lets all move on

spawn
06-22-2006, 09:31 AM
I see this thread being Roadhoused soon...at least I hope. This is something know one is going to see eye to eye on.
I totally agree. I think this was discussed ad nauseum yesterday. Nothing new or earthshattering is being presented here.

mccoydp
06-22-2006, 09:47 AM
I see this thread being Roadhoused soon...at least I hope. This is something know one is going to see eye to eye on.

I second that...there are a lot of hateful comments floating around in this thread, and it's going nowhere.

There's no way I'm risking banishment by responding to most of this gibberish.

Baby Fisk
06-22-2006, 09:53 AM
I second that...there are a lot of hateful comments floating around in this thread, and it's going nowhere.

There's no way I'm risking banishment by responding to most of this gibberish.
Same here. It's been a very depressing thread.

Hey, does anyone like ethnic food?

Flight #24
06-22-2006, 09:54 AM
3. Apparently Mariotti has now lost it. Teddy Greenstein has a column out now that quotes Mariotti as ripping and condemming his own Sun-Times employers. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. He apparently thinks he's bigger then his job, his employers, the teams that he 'so called' covers and the media business in general.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060621greenstein2,1,4147501.column?coll=cs-home-utility

Lip

Well, maybe some good can come of this then. If the Moron finally goes away because he continues to inject himself into the story and stir **** up, that would be a wonderful thing.

And I love his comment that the S-T is biased towards the Sox. Henry - where are you when we need you! This is your cue to come flying back in like "Superman returns"!

Flight #24
06-22-2006, 09:55 AM
Same here. It's been a very depressing thread.

Hey, does anyone like ethnic food?

Or dislike it? Or think it's so-so?

PaulDrake
06-22-2006, 09:59 AM
The Spartans were great warriors.

viagracat
06-22-2006, 10:16 AM
I see this thread being Roadhoused soon...at least I hope. This is something know one is going to see eye to eye on.

I don't think it should be Roadhoused, but it may be time to get it locked. We're going around in circles now; covering things discussed hundreds of posts ago.

With or without WSI's help, this became a big story. That's the problem: Ozzie shot his mouth off in a way that drew negative attention to him (and the White Sox) nationwide; obviously that's not what we want as Sox fans. Mariotti, while certainly not a hero or the victim he claims he is, did get the attention he craves. That's also not what we want as Sox fans, of course.

I thiought this thread contained reasonable debate in a very touchy topic. Nobody got out of line, I don't think, although it was passionate. Maybe that's not what some people want at WSI, but as the Sox have the nation's eye right now over this incident, it had to come up and I thought it was discussed pretty well.

But we've been there and done that. Time to close the thread.

TornLabrum
06-22-2006, 10:31 AM
In general, people need to stop being "offended" every time they hear someone say something that they consider derogatory about their particular group. Words like that only have power when people react to them by being so offended, hurt or having 30 page discussions about them. Ignore them and they have no power.

Stop talking about it.

I believe Thomas More made it quite clear in his trial that silence applies assent.

miker
06-22-2006, 10:35 AM
A question for the white people... have you ever been offended by any of those terms? They're derogatory, but I've never heard of such an uproar after public usage of one.

I assume the typical response to that would be "well that's not the same."

Why not?
One reason is because white supremacists are a very small group. Dangerous, wacky, but small.

As for my earlier discussion with you, the omitted words were "nice guy" and "likes."

mccoydp
06-22-2006, 10:39 AM
Agreed, Our society has become a bunch of PC, sensitive wussies. Which you can probably blame on the media for blowing eveything out of proportion.

Ozzie apologized what else do you want him to do? He cant take back what he said...lets all move on

This thread has been one of discovery for me: at least I now know that I am a PC, sensitive wuss. Some call it bleeding-heart liberalism, I just call it human decency.

But...moving on...

What really stinks about this whole thing is that the sportsblab commentators and the Moron have, once again, sucessfully taken the focus away any talk of the Sox's stellar play recently to incessant jibber-jabbering over Ozzie Guillen's constant verbal missteps.

I don't agree with Ozzie's comments one bit...they're shameful and out of line. HOWEVER, I really just want to talk about baseball and revel in the success of this outstanding team. Reserve a slap to Ozzie for not watching his ****ing mouth and giving the mediots something else to talk about except the thrashings the Sox have given the Little League over the past week.

harwar
06-22-2006, 10:40 AM
The Spartans were great warriors.

Yes,but at what cost.
Their entire society was built around being prepared for war.A pretty horrible life.

miker
06-22-2006, 10:42 AM
This thread has been one of discovery for me: at least I now know that I am a PC, sensitive wuss.
Does someone need a hug?

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 10:44 AM
I love this photo for many reasons. Feel free to discuss what it means to you.

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/upload/whitesox-thumb.jpg

When I see this photo, I am sort of struck by the irony that many baseball fans on the internet who thought it was funny to imply that Ozzie was gay by posting this photo on various internet sites are now, in many cases, the same people calling Ozzie a classless homophobe.

DaveIsHere
06-22-2006, 10:46 AM
This thread has been one of discovery for me: at least I now know that I am a PC, sensitive wuss.

It was a generalization, no offense to you or this particular subject for that matter. Just my personal opinion on the PC deal in all facets. It seems that no matter what people say nowadays some gets upset whether it is you or me....a sad state of affairs.

mccoydp
06-22-2006, 10:48 AM
It was a generalization, no offense to you or this particular subject for that matter. Just my personal opinion on the PC deal in all facets.

No problem here...you're entitled to your opinion. I won't infringe on that.

I just want to read a sports website and have them gush over the Sox and the beatings they're dealing out instead of Ozzie's big ****ing mouth.

DaveIsHere
06-22-2006, 10:49 AM
I just want to read a sports website and have them gush over the Sox and the beatings they're dealing out instead of Ozzie's big ****ing mouth.

That is the biggest shame, there is always something that the media can use to overshadow what and awesome series/week/season we are having again. Anything to avoid talking about how good we are.

mccoydp
06-22-2006, 10:54 AM
That is the biggest shame, there is always something that the media can use to overshadow what and awesome series/week/season we are having again. Anything to avoid talking about how good we are.

I am with you. My memory isn't the best, and I've forgotten about more games than I remember since I started watching in 1991, but I can't remember a better string of beatings that the Sox have handed out. It's been just awesome. But...the coverage is secondary to the "Hiney Bird" and the ensuing drama.

WSox8404
06-22-2006, 10:56 AM
When I see this photo, I am sort of struck by the irony that many baseball fans on the internet who thought it was funny to imply that Ozzie was gay by posting this photo on various internet sites are now, in many cases, the same people calling Ozzie a classless homophobe.

Exactly. A ton of Cub fans I know were telling me that Ozzie was gay. And I bet a bunch of them are calling for Ozzie's head now. Talk about double standards, huh?

miker
06-22-2006, 10:56 AM
I am with you. My memory isn't the best, and I've forgotten about more games than I remember since I started watching in 1991, but I can't remember a better string of beatings that the Sox have handed out. It's been just awesome. But...the coverage is secondary to the "Hiney Bird" and the ensuing drama.
With luck, the beatings will continue long after this flap has gone through the 24-hour news cycle.

spawn
06-22-2006, 10:59 AM
As has been mentioned in another thread, the Knicks have fired Larry Brown and Isaiah Thomas has taken over, so there is a new braking story to cover. This story will lose it's teeth about by the weekend.

Jurr
06-22-2006, 11:21 AM
It sucks that this is going on. It also sucks that our society has used the words "gay" and "***" as derrogatory (but not in a homosexual context) words for a long time. People say that they don't want to see a movie or wear a certain article of clothing because it's "gay". It's exactly the same for the other word. In light of this, I talked to a guy at my clinic that is openly homosexual, and I was just wondering what he feels when those words are used in other contexts. He said that he has been used to it for so long that he doesn't get bothered by it. He gets pissed if someone uses it directly to refer to someone's sexuality in a derrogatory fashion.

Ozzie doesn't think about what he says, and it is going to continuously cause the media to have a field day. It's just a part of having an old school manager that doesn't have that disconnect between his mouth and his brain.
Sensitivity training? I'm not sure if that would ever work, because when that guy gets pissed off, he lets his mouth go.

Reni
06-22-2006, 12:03 PM
even when someone says, "that is so gay" it is totally a reference, albeit not directly, about sexuality. That kind of saying is an attempt to emasculate something.

Even if you call someone a "***" - meaning they are weak and emasculated - you are implying they are not "man enough" and the undertone is still a slur on homosexuality.

I am sorry, as much as I love Ozzie - I can't be an apologist for using that kind of language.

--

However, if he was British he could have just been asking for a cigarette ;)

Paulwny
06-22-2006, 12:11 PM
[quote=mccoydp]I second that...there are a lot of hateful comments floating around in this thread, and it's going nowhere.
/quote]


I once thought that the Valentin vs Clayton threads (comments) from a few years ago would create a split in the WSI Community. This thread really has that potential.

sullythered
06-22-2006, 12:14 PM
As has been mentioned in another thread, the Knicks have fired Larry Brown and Isaiah Thomas has taken over, so there is a new braking story to cover. This story will lose it's teeth about by the weekend.
Capital-Y-ikes. Isaiah is taking over as coach, huh. That is the most awesome news I've gotten in weeks. The Bulls chances of landing Greg Oden with the Knicks pick just increased exponentially.:D:

voodoochile
06-22-2006, 12:17 PM
I second that...there are a lot of hateful comments floating around in this thread, and it's going nowhere.



I once thought that the Valentin vs Clayton threads (comments) from a few years ago would create a split in the WSI Community. This thread really has that potential.
I disagree. I don't see anything but people expressing their opinions. It's a very volatile topic and so far it has remained fairly under control. I'd actually lock it because we are definitely getting into some politics and even some religion, but I don't think people are done with it and I don't want to lock 10 more threads in the next 2 days, so it's probably better to just keep an eye on it and let it play out.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:17 PM
I seriously cannot believe this thing is still going. I think it's time to give it up. What Ozzie said was wrong, it offended some people, he apologized, so lets get on with our lives. This is all opinions, and I can't believe this, "i'm right, you're wrong," stuff continues. It feels like I have been hearing about this for weeks, and it's only been one day.

*sigh*

Catch up time for me...I apologize in advance for what I believe will be multiple posts in a row.

oeo

For me it it not about "I'm right, you're wrong". I see this as an opportunity to educate people who may not ever be able to have this conversation. Andby educate, I mean be able to see different views, process the new information, and possibly change your outlook. You don't have to agree with me at all, but I do hope that people read with an open mind and be open to other points of view.

OldRoman-
Yes, I have chatted with Carl Everett in the past. I love the guy. He's great. I have no problem with people saying that being gay is wrong. I have a problem with homosexual slurs. Hell, I think people who believe in god are wrong. I have very strong feelings about that, but I respect people anough not to throw around "anti-god/religion" slurs.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:20 PM
2. I'm puzzled by the fact that the media and many of my friends here at WSI seem to be so outraged over Ozzie's comment yet I didn't see the same response when Dusty Baker made his comment about dark skinned athletes being better able to play the game under hot conditions because of their skin color.


Once again for clarification:
I'm not outraged by Ozzie's comments. I am disappointed and a bit upset.I have never called for Guillen to be suspended because of his comments. I am outraged by some posters here an their insensitivity and ignorance.

For the record, I was upset about Dusty's comments and so were many other posters here.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:24 PM
Everything he said is right on the money. Everyone I know my age and a little older and a little younger talks that way. I am also 21. Its the way we talk. We do not mean it literally. Its just the way it is. And if people cannot understand that, then that is their problem.

There are other people in the world besides you and your generation. When you recognize that, and become more aware of the rest of the world, you will become a better person.

TheOldRoman
06-22-2006, 12:36 PM
OldRoman-
Yes, I have chatted with Carl Everett in the past. I love the guy. He's great. I have no problem with people saying that being gay is wrong. I have a problem with homosexual slurs. Hell, I think people who believe in god are wrong. I have very strong feelings about that, but I respect people anough not to throw around "anti-god/religion" slurs.
Exactly. I may have overreacted to another post in that post, but I was responding to, what I thought was an elitist sense among some of "you have to accept homosexuality or you are a caveman" (I am not accusing you of that). I was just using you as an example of an intelligent, open minded person. We should all learn to be able to confront people who disagree with us in a civil manner. Too often, people draw the line in the sand, and decide they mush hate/not socialize with another group because of fundamental disagreements. That is wrong. If PH13 and Carl Everett can have a few beers together, hopefully others will be able to talk about their differences peacefully.
As I said, that just applies to gayness in general, not slurs. There is never an excuse for such words as *** to be used in public, around unfamiliar people. Just because someone doesn't except gays doesn't mean he can publicly use those hurtful words.

sullythered
06-22-2006, 12:38 PM
There are other people in the world besides you and your generation. When you recognize that, and become more aware of the rest of the world, you will become a better person.
That comes with age. I talked a whole lot of nonsense when I was twenty-one, as well. And that was just six years ago. As we live, we start to realize more and more that we are not the center of the universe.

Btw, PH13 I commend you for maintaining your cool (mostly) throughout this whole debate. You've put yourself out there and held it together when debating even the most inane statements (StockdaleforVeep, I'm looking in your direction).

I certainly don't agree with all the stuff you've said, but the debate's been far too one-sided. Nice job on the short end.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:41 PM
It was a generalization, no offense to you or this particular subject for that matter. Just my personal opinion on the PC deal in all facets. It seems that no matter what people say nowadays some gets upset whether it is you or me....a sad state of affairs.

IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the majority of society believes that it is ok to use slurs which infer that an entire group of people is inferior to the rest of society. Homosexuals are not treated as equal human beings and this thread proves it...and that, my friend, is a sad state of affairs.

WSox8404
06-22-2006, 12:44 PM
There are other people in the world besides you and your generation. When you recognize that, and become more aware of the rest of the world, you will become a better person.

But at the same time this can go both ways. I know maybe we should realize that some people may take offense to the way we talk. At the same time the older generation should realize that we use these terms but do not use them hatefully. Understanding goes both ways. So essentially the older generation should recognize how the younger gereration talks. If they did, they wouldn't be offended.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:44 PM
Exactly. I may have overreacted to another post in that post, but I was responding to, what I thought was an elitist sense among some of "you have to accept homosexuality or you are a caveman" (I am not accusing you of that). I was just using you as an example of an intelligent, open minded person. We should all learn to be able to confront people who disagree with us in a civil manner. Too often, people draw the line in the sand, and decide they mush hate/not socialize with another group because of fundamental disagreements. That is wrong. If PH13 and Carl Everett can have a few beers together, hopefully others will be able to talk about their differences peacefully.
As I said, that just applies to gayness in general, not slurs. There is never an excuse for such words as *** to be used in public, around unfamiliar people. Just because someone doesn't except gays doesn't mean he can publicly use those hurtful words.

Almost everyone has overreacted at some point(myself included), but isn't it great to get the blood boiling...really flowing...makes me feel like I am really alive. :D:

Your last two sentences are excellent and should be the start and end of this entire discussion.

harwar
06-22-2006, 12:45 PM
Btw, PH13 I commend you for maintaining your cool (mostly) throughout this whole debate. You've put yourself out there and held it together when debating even the most inane statements
One of my dearest and oldest friends is a lesbian who ran her own longline boat for 10 years or more.
Although she is slowing down,as i am,i pity the person who uses any kind of derogatory comment about gays within her earshot and i've seen here take people apart(guys n girls) a few times over that.
One of the toughest people i've ever met and one who will stand with you and fight when all the chips are down.

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 12:47 PM
But at the same time this can go both ways. I know maybe we should realize that some people may take offense to the way we talk. At the same time the older generation should realize that we use these terms but do not use them hatefully. Understanding goes both ways. So essentially the older generation should recognize how the younger gereration talks. If they did, they wouldn't be offended.

Dude, I know what you're trying to say, but it doesn't work that way.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:48 PM
But at the same time this can go both ways. I know maybe we should realize that some people may take offense to the way we talk. At the same time the older generation should realize that we use these terms but do not use them hatefully. Understanding goes both ways. So essentially the older generation should recognize how the younger gereration talks. If they did, they wouldn't be offended.

We do recognize it. That would be when we roll our eyes and say stuff like "Youth is wasted on the young". Please keep in mind, I am a high school teacher in an urban school district. I am very familiar with the younger generation and how they behave. btw...I'm not very old myself. I am only 31.

WSox8404
06-22-2006, 12:50 PM
And I just want to clarify where I stand on the homosexuality issue. I am completely against it due to religious and personal beliefs. However I have had and still have gay friends. I am completely open minded even though I am against it in moral principles. And on another note I am really glad this thread has not gone really bad. I would have thought this would have been locked a long time ago. Compliments to the educated and informed and mature people having this discussion.

P.S. PH13 I commend you for being so open. I would hope that if put in a similar position involving something else one day I would have the courage you do to hold my stance.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 12:54 PM
P.S. PH13 I commend you for being so open. I would hope that if put in a similar position involving something else one day I would have the courage you do to hold my stance.

Thank you. Honestly, years of practice. 10 years ago when I was your age I probably would have been a raving maniac that would have caused this thread to become closed. The most important lesson I learned was to listen to people and show them respect. You don't have to agree, but you should respect...unless of course that person is just an obvious ****er. :wink:

jenn2080
06-22-2006, 01:02 PM
IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the majority of society believes that it is ok to use slurs which infer that an entire group of people is inferior to the rest of society. Homosexuals are not treated as equal human beings and this thread proves it...and that, my friend, is a sad state of affairs.


I agree with you for the most part. I have quite a few family members that are gay. I have always thought it was complete bull **** the society discriminates against gay people, but I think we have come along way. What I dont get is what difference it makes gay straight whatever, if you love someone unconditionally then who am I to judge or any of us for that matter. A man and a women cant even keep a long last relationship and this is suppose to be what I want to do when I am old enough....Get married have kids be miserable and get a divorce. Now that statement is not meant to open up a can of worms about happy marriage. I think it is completely great the people who go out there adopt kids get married or whatever. A kid does not need a man or a women, all you need is two loving parents. Hell look at how many of us grow up in a single family home. I know I did and I came out just fine. And this is normal?

Iwritecode
06-22-2006, 01:56 PM
This is from way back in the original thread but I've been wondering about it ever since I read it. I've been reading through the entire thread...


Hey that would be great. I love that idea. Too bad that I don't have equal rights, maybe then we can actually teach that everyone is equal and ok.

Equal rights does not mean special rights.

I admit I'm clueless on things like this so I have to ask. What rights to you not have simply because you are gay?

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 02:04 PM
This is from way back in the original thread but I've been wondering about it ever since I read it. I've been reading through the entire thread...




I admit I'm clueless on things like this so I have to ask. What rights to you not have simply because you are gay?

Well, I'm not gay, but I can tell you that gays are not legally allowed to be married in most places and so their partners are denied the say kinds of benefits(insurance and that sort of thing) that a heterosexual spouse can have.

voodoochile
06-22-2006, 02:04 PM
This is from way back in the original thread but I've been wondering about it ever since I read it. I've been reading through the entire thread...




I admit I'm clueless on things like this so I have to ask. What rights to you not have simply because you are gay?

Not all communities protect gay people from discrimination. There are places where you can refuse to rent housing to gay couples.

In addition, gay people do not get any of the marriage benefits offered to them even if they have a civil union with legal paperwork to back it up. Gay people cannot carry their spouse on their work insurance for example and they cannot file joint taxes, often forcing one member of the couple to own all the property as well as be the only legal guardian of their children.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 02:14 PM
Thanks VC and Uncle Patrick.

Code, they covered most of it. The most glaring one at the moment is marriage/legal civil union. As VC mentioned, homosexuals are not protected everywhere against discrimination. In some states, people can still be fired for being gay. Hell, our own government (the military) still discharges people just for being gay. It would be very difficult, and maybe even impossible, for my girlfriend and I to adopt a child together. She also cannot be covered under my insurance, which is huge because she is an independent business owner and cannot afford medical insurance at the moment. If I am on my deathbed in the hospital, she may not be able to visit me because she is not considered immediate family. There is also a whole 'nother can of worms if I should happen to die, since the house is in my name.

Let's not forget about the Kisscam at the ballpark. Has there ever been a gay couple on the kiss cam? (Kinda joking, but kinda serious about this too...)

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 02:17 PM
Let's not forget about the Kisscam at the ballpark. Has there ever been a gay couple on the kiss cam? (Kinda joking, but kinda serious about this too...)

I did see the Kiss Cam focus on 2 women once, but I think it was more about wishful thinking on the part of the camera man. The two women did not kiss.

ilsox7
06-22-2006, 02:19 PM
There is also a whole 'nother can of worms if I should happen to die, since the house is in my name.



This especially is true when dealing with Tenancy by the Entirety, which allows married couples to co-own property (in IL only a family home). It avoids probate and if those rights are not extended to homosexuals, it is a pretty serious disadvantage.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 02:20 PM
I did see the Kiss Cam focus on 2 women once, but I think it was more about wishful thinking on the part of the camera man. The two women did not kiss.

Yeah...that doesn't surprise me. :rolleyes:

TornLabrum
06-22-2006, 03:19 PM
IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the majority of society believes that it is ok to use slurs which infer that an entire group of people is inferior to the rest of society. Homosexuals are not treated as equal human beings and this thread proves it...and that, my friend, is a sad state of affairs.
Right now it appears that homosexuals are the only group that it is "okay" to express those feelings about in public. Why that's true, I don't know. I still can't figure out why heterosexuals seem to feel threatened by homosexuality. I certainly never did.

On the other hand, that guy I wrote about some time ago who got beat up by his heterosexual roommate sure had a lot to feel threatened by.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 03:23 PM
That comes with age. I talked a whole lot of nonsense when I was twenty-one, as well. And that was just six years ago. As we live, we start to realize more and more that we are not the center of the universe.

Btw, PH13 I commend you for maintaining your cool (mostly) throughout this whole debate. You've put yourself out there and held it together when debating even the most inane statements (StockdaleforVeep, I'm looking in your direction).

I certainly don't agree with all the stuff you've said, but the debate's been far too one-sided. Nice job on the short end.
Thanx for the plug

I find it quite curious how for people who disagree, the opposing side is always the stupid and uninformed, in any discussion
Anyway, the issue is done, next topic, sox win and game up on detroit, ye-es

Uncle_Patrick
06-22-2006, 03:29 PM
I still can't figure out why heterosexuals seem to feel threatened by homosexuality.

Some people think its contagious.

itsnotrequired
06-22-2006, 03:35 PM
I find it quite curious how for people who disagree, the opposing side is always the stupid and uninformed, in any discussion

Nothing curious about it.

How to win an argument:

1. Cast your opponent in a poor light. Make fun of them, their beliefs, their appearance, etc.

2. Stress your points, ignore theirs and anything else that weakens your position.

3. Walk away victorious.

:redneck

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 03:55 PM
Nothing curious about it.

How to win an argument:

1. Cast your opponent in a poor light. Make fun of them, their beliefs, their appearance, etc.

2. Stress your points, ignore theirs and anything else that weakens your position.

3. Walk away victorious.

:redneck

Or, if u agree with the opponant, you automatically win :)

Chicago
06-22-2006, 04:13 PM
Some people think its contagious.

Can't we all just dance and get over this...:bandance:

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 04:14 PM
Thanx for the plug

I find it quite curious how for people who disagree, the opposing side is always the stupid and uninformed, in any discussion
Anyway, the issue is done, next topic, sox win and game up on detroit, ye-es
Have I ever called you stupid? Uninformed...maybe. I don't quite know your experience in regards to this topic. It seems to me that I am getting ignored by quite a few on the "opposing" side.

While we are at it, lets look at the "sides":
A) Those who think it is ok to call people "****".
B) Those who think it is not ok to call people "****".

Did I miss something?

Oh hey, thanks grandmaster for ending the discussion of this topic. It is definitely less meaningful or constructive than a discussion on ethnic food or the cub pitchers.

Right now it appears that homosexuals are the only group that it is "okay" to express those feelings about in public. Why that's true, I don't know. I still can't figure out why heterosexuals seem to feel threatened by homosexuality. I certainly never did.

On the other hand, that guy I wrote about some time ago who got beat up by his heterosexual roommate sure had a lot to feel threatened by.
I don't know why it is ok either. Things are changing, but progress is slow. I think the Arab population may also be with the homosexuals as being "ok" to slur in public. The Christian right also gets a fair amount of grief, but since that was their choice I believe they deserve everything that they get.

MarySwiss
06-22-2006, 04:20 PM
Thanks VC and Uncle Patrick.

Code, they covered most of it. The most glaring one at the moment is marriage/legal civil union. As VC mentioned, homosexuals are not protected everywhere against discrimination. In some states, people can still be fired for being gay. Hell, our own government (the military) still discharges people just for being gay. It would be very difficult, and maybe even impossible, for my girlfriend and I to adopt a child together. She also cannot be covered under my insurance, which is huge because she is an independent business owner and cannot afford medical insurance at the moment. If I am on my deathbed in the hospital, she may not be able to visit me because she is not considered immediate family. There is also a whole 'nother can of worms if I should happen to die, since the house is in my name.

Let's not forget about the Kisscam at the ballpark. Has there ever been a gay couple on the kiss cam? (Kinda joking, but kinda serious about this too...)
And in many (most?) states, she would have no say on any decision regarding your care; for instance, whether to sign a DNR or remove you from life support if necessary. This means that, in extreme cases, such a decision could be made by a distant relative instead of by a person who loves you, who has shared your life, and who knows your wishes much better. I will never understand how anyone could argue that this is right.

1951Campbell
06-22-2006, 04:29 PM
And in many (most?) states, she would have no say on any decision regarding your care; for instance, whether to sign a DNR or remove you from life support if necessary. This means that, in extreme cases, such a decision could be made by a distant relative instead of by a person who loves you, who has shared your life, and who knows your wishes much better. I will never understand how anyone could argue that this is right.

I have to step in as a wills, trusts, estates, probate guy here.

About $200 and a trip to an attorney to get powers of attorney and a living will fixes the "distant relative over the boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance/life partner" problem. It's so easy, it drives me nuts that many of my clients still don't do it or put it off.

Anyway, carry on...

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 04:31 PM
I have to step in as a wills, trusts, estates, probate guy here.

About $200 and a trip to an attorney to get powers of attorney and a living will fixes the "distant relative over the boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance/life partner" problem. It's so easy, it drives me nuts that many of my clients still don't do it or put it off.

Anyway, carry on...

I have been told (by an attorney) that what you suggest can be easily contested by the relative and very often the relative wins. Is there any truth to that?

Kilroy
06-22-2006, 04:35 PM
I have to step in as a wills, trusts, estates, probate guy here.

About $200 and a trip to an attorney to get powers of attorney and a living will fixes the "distant relative over the boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance/life partner" problem. It's so easy, it drives me nuts that many of my clients still don't do it or put it off.

Anyway, carry on...


Yes, carry on with the original discussion. Don't slip into Gay Marriage, or its **** house or bust!

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 04:37 PM
Have I ever called you stupid? Uninformed...maybe. I don't quite know your experience in regards to this topic. It seems to me that I am getting ignored by quite a few on the "opposing" side.

While we are at it, lets look at the "sides":
A) Those who think it is ok to call people "****".
B) Those who think it is not ok to call people "****".

Did I miss something?

Oh hey, thanks grandmaster for ending the discussion of this topic. It is definitely less meaningful or constructive than a discussion on ethnic food or the cub pitchers.


I don't know why it is ok either. Things are changing, but progress is slow. I think the Arab population may also be with the homosexuals as being "ok" to slur in public. The Christian right also gets a fair amount of grief, but since that was their choice I believe they deserve everything that they get.

To me, the argument was the right to be offensive and the right not to be maybe? Im not sure anymore cuz after 600+ posts, who even rememebers the origional argument. I really wish i could find the penn and teller episode i really like to quote, pretty much the quote was "You have the right to be offended, but you dont have the right to tell people they cant say what they want cuz you are offended" Then again i may be completely off on that quote cuz im goin on failed memory at the moment. Im not saying that everyone should walk around throwin f bombs and whatever vernacular you choose, but im saying, as the massiveness of this thread showed, that what ozzie did is not the end of the world, and responding to it in defense of ozzie does not make one a homophobe or anti whatever, where as if someone is silent, it doesnt make them passive and a weak walk over. If you see most of my posts, i wasnt discussing the issue of it being a homosexual, i was discussing it as the word itself and the right to speak it.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 04:37 PM
Yes, carry on with the original discussion. Don't slip into Gay Marriage, or its **** house or bust!

:?:

Power of Attorney/Living Will = Marriage?

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 04:42 PM
To me, the argument was the right to be offensive and the right not to be maybe? Im not sure anymore cuz after 600+ posts, who even rememebers the origional argument. I really wish i could find the penn and teller episode i really like to quote, pretty much the quote was "You have the right to be offended, but you dont have the right to tell people they cant say what they want cuz you are offended" Then again i may be completely off on that quote cuz im goin on failed memory at the moment. Im not saying that everyone should walk around throwin f bombs and whatever vernacular you choose, but im saying, as the massiveness of this thread showed, that what ozzie did is not the end of the world, and responding to it in defense of ozzie does not make one a homophobe or anti whatever, where as if someone is silent, it doesnt make them passive and a weak walk over. If you see most of my posts, i wasnt discussing the issue of it being a homosexual, i was discussing it as the word itself and the right to speak it.
I love Penn and Teller's Bull**** and I believe that you are thinking of the episode about swearing.

You're right. You have absolutely every right to call me or anyone else whatever the **** you want. However, you do not have the right to tell me how I should feel about it. You can call people **** all you want, and if you do that I will continue to call you an ignorant ****ing moron. Fair?

btw...I don't believe that I called anyone a homophobe or claimed that they were anti-gay. That is you assuming things. I have been sticking to the fact at hand, which is the use of the word and how it is accepted in society.

SouthSide_HitMen
06-22-2006, 04:43 PM
I didn't think WTS could get any worse after the flubsession was toned down.
I was wrong. :(:

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 04:46 PM
I love Penn and Teller's Bull**** and I believe that you are thinking of the episode about swearing.

You're right. You have absolutely every right to call me or anyone else whatever the **** you want. However, you do not have the right to tell me how I should feel about it. You can call people **** all you want, and if you do that I will continue to call you an ignorant ****ing moron. Fair?

btw...I don't believe that I called anyone a homophobe or claimed that they were anti-gay. That is you assuming things. I have been sticking to the fact at hand, which is the use of the word and how it is accepted in society.
This may be the first time we agree and i dont think i personally myself ever said how you should feel but when you directly attack someone like say if u did right there with "****ing moron" then i have the right to respond cuz you directly did it to me. Just like this whole issue, it shoulda been a mariotti\ozzie issue.

and yes, its from the profanity episode, currently downloadin so i can accurately give the quote

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 04:46 PM
I didn't think WTS could get any worse after the flubsession was toned down.
I was wrong. :(:

I respectfully disagree. I think we are having some intelligent conversation here. There is nothing intelligent about flubsession.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 04:50 PM
This may be the first time we agree and i dont think i personally myself ever said how you should feel but when you directly attack someone like say if u did right there with "****ing moron" then i have the right to respond cuz you directly did it to me. Just like this whole issue, it shoulda been a mariotti\ozzie issue.

and yes, its from the profanity episode, currently downloadin so i can accurately give the quote
I meant "you" as a generalization in the last response to you. I don't think you were one of the people doing it, but there have been a lot of posters stating that people need to grow thicker skin, etc and that is who I was writing about. Sorry for any confusion.

sullythered
06-22-2006, 04:54 PM
Thanx for the plug

I find it quite curious how for people who disagree, the opposing side is always the stupid and uninformed, in any discussion
Anyway, the issue is done, next topic, sox win and game up on detroit, ye-es
My apologies. I was posting and reading through this thread early on, and some of your initial posts were, to me, a little backlashy (I know that's not a word) and abrasive. Now that the discussion has been going on a while, you seem to be more clearly stating your case, and I have a better understanding of your perspective. In truth, my own opinion is that the whole thing has been a little overblown, and it's best to just move on with it all.

Hell yes, by the way, Go Sox!

Also, Penn and Teller are awesome.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:02 PM
I meant "you" as a generalization in the last response to you. I don't think you were one of the people doing it, but there have been a lot of posters stating that people need to grow thicker skin, etc and that is who I was writing about. Sorry for any confusion.

I didnt mean that u were directing it at me, i was being general as well

Jaffar
06-22-2006, 05:03 PM
Hey PH13, anytime you wanna go to a game check out the ladies let me know! :gulp: On a more serious note, what's your thoughts on how the media has covered this (both local and national) and do you think the White Sox, instead of punishing Ozzie should work with him on doing something for the gay community, especially with the games coming up? I just don't see how a fine and suspension would make you or any other homosexual feel better about it.

Iwritecode
06-22-2006, 05:04 PM
I'm still wondering about the evolution of the definition of the word "gay".

Years ago it used to mean "happy".

Then at some point in time it was used to describe a homosexual.

Now people are saying that it's a common term to describe just about anything.


I just put it into Microsoft Word's thesaurus and it can't find it. :?:

DaveIsHere
06-22-2006, 05:06 PM
Oh well it can be over now, Ozzie has been fined and has to go to sensitivity training.:D:

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:15 PM
Hey PH13, anytime you wanna go to a game check out the ladies let me know! :gulp: On a more serious note, what's your thoughts on how the media has covered this (both local and national) and do you think the White Sox, instead of punishing Ozzie should work with him on doing something for the gay community, especially with the games coming up? I just don't see how a fine and suspension would make you or any other homosexual feel better about it.

I always wondered, is that proper, to punish someone by forcing them to do something they may or may not be against. If someone truly is anti gay and has hateful feelings towards gay people, wouldnt forced work in the gay community just fuel that anger even more? Same goes with any crime\community service type acts

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 05:17 PM
Hey PH13, anytime you wanna go to a game check out the ladies let me know! :gulp: On a more serious note, what's your thoughts on how the media has covered this (both local and national) and do you think the White Sox, instead of punishing Ozzie should work with him on doing something for the gay community, especially with the games coming up? I just don't see how a fine and suspension would make you or any other homosexual feel better about it.

No need for the teal in your first sentence. :wink:

I don't want him to be suspended and I don't think he should be. If the organization wants to fine him to make up for the extra man hours for "damage control" that is up to JR. I think him working in the gay community would be a good thing and I don't think he would be opposed to it. I think one of the things he should do is have to come to my school (after we start up agian, August 7th) which is for students that have been bullied and harassed and has a high LGBT population and speak to the students or work with them or something. :cool:

In all honesty, I'm not really following the story. I'm not a big fan of the media. I have read a few stories here or there, but I believe that I know what happened and don't need to read more media spin about it.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:20 PM
windsock made first cut on around the horn, first topic is ozzie

Jaffar
06-22-2006, 05:20 PM
I always wondered, is that proper, to punish someone by forcing them to do something they may or may not be against. If someone truly is anti gay and has hateful feelings towards gay people, wouldnt forced work in the gay community just fuel that anger even more? Same goes with any crime\community service type acts
I didn't know he was "anti-gay".

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 05:21 PM
I always wondered, is that proper, to punish someone by forcing them to do something they may or may not be against. If someone truly is anti gay and has hateful feelings towards gay people, wouldnt forced work in the gay community just fuel that anger even more? Same goes with any crime\community service type acts

I don't think Ozzie is a "homophobe". Hell, he goes to WNBA games! But I do think that Ozzie has limited contact with the gay community and I believe that if he did spent some real time in the gay community he may become more understanding about why some of the things he says hurts some people.

For instance, most kids growing up think that there is nothing wrong with calling somone "retarded"...I was one of them. I, like some of the younger ones here on the board, thought that it was no big deal and people who were hurt were taking it too far. But then I worked with special education children and my whole perspective about using the word "retard" changed.

Jaffar
06-22-2006, 05:22 PM
No need for the teal in your first sentence. :wink:

I don't want him to be suspended and I don't think he should be. If the organization wants to fine him to make up for the extra man hours for "damage control" that is up to JR. I think him working in the gay community would be a good thing and I don't think he would be opposed to it. I think one of the things he should do is have to come to my school (after we start up agian, August 7th) which is for students that have been bullied and harassed and has a high LGBT population and speak to the students or work with them or something. :cool:

In all honesty, I'm not really following the story. I'm not a big fan of the media. I have read a few stories here or there, but I believe that I know what happened and don't need to read more media spin about it.


I didn't think he would opposed to it either and personally think it would speak volumes over an apology. I'll take that teal back then, just let me know the date!

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:24 PM
I didn't know he was "anti-gay".

I wasnt calling him antigay, im talking about generalities. If someone commits a hate crime or race crime, if they dont get prison time, they end up going to some sort of sensitivity training\community service. Im asking, does that even help or make the origional sentiment worse?

Jaffar
06-22-2006, 05:26 PM
I wasnt calling him antigay, im talking about generalities. If someone commits a hate crime or race crime, if they dont get prison time, they end up going to some sort of sensitivity training\community service. Im asking, does that even help or make the origional sentiment worse?

Good question but I wasn't really generalizing but was being Ozzie specific.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:27 PM
I don't think Ozzie is a "homophobe". Hell, he goes to WNBA games! But I do think that Ozzie has limited contact with the gay community and I believe that if he did spent some real time in the gay community he may become more understanding about why some of the things he says hurts some people.

For instance, most kids growing up think that there is nothing wrong with calling somone "retarded"...I was one of them. I, like some of the younger ones here on the board, thought that it was no big deal and people who were hurt were taking it too far. But then I worked with special education children and my whole perspective about using the word "retard" changed.


Honestly, i think the wnba comment ment more to his term of the word saying windsock lacked manhood as his "homeland" definition of the word. I didnt think he was infering that the wnba is full of lesbians but simply Ozzie may be saying he's not a mysoginist perhaps? May be a confusion of the points with him and the media, i dont know, but i never and i dont think many people associate WNBA and lesbians.

DickAllen72
06-22-2006, 05:28 PM
I wish Ozzie, Hawk and everyone else associated with the Sox organization would just ignore Moronotti. Nothing good comes from a war of words with that guy. Nothing.

I have to admit I wasn't offended by what Guillen said. I don't buy into this namby-pamby stuff about language being hurtful. I've probably been called every name in the book at one point or another, and somehow, I've managed to survive.

I'd be a hypocrite if I were to criticize Ozzie because I'm certain I've used language that might be considered offensive to others. I wonder how many of the people throwing stones at Ozzie right now are living in a glass house.

You hit the nail on the head three times in one post.

Iwritecode
06-22-2006, 05:36 PM
I wasnt calling him antigay, im talking about generalities. If someone commits a hate crime or race crime, if they dont get prison time, they end up going to some sort of sensitivity training\community service. Im asking, does that even help or make the origional sentiment worse?

It would really depend on the person I guess. It also depends on the "reason" they don't like a certain group of people. Is it from some irrational fear? Is it because that's what they've been taught? Is it because of a lack of understanding? Religous beliefs?

Sometimes if a person spends time with people from a group that they "hate" they'll actually find out that they're just people like everyone else. On the other hand, some people are really close-minded and refuse to change.

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:43 PM
It would really depend on the person I guess. It also depends on the "reason" they don't like a certain group of people. Is it from some irrational fear? Is it because that's what they've been taught? Is it because of a lack of understanding? Religous beliefs?

Sometimes if a person spends time with people from a group that they "hate" they'll actually find out that they're just people like everyone else. On the other hand, some people are really close-minded and refuse to change.

Well its like this, I disagree with homosexuality based on religion and its just not my thing. Im straight and im happy with it, i love the ladies. I dont hate homosexuals as that i had a homosexual uncle and collegues that were homosexual. Also had the misfortune of being hit on but thats another story. Now had i said ***, and been given sensitivity training, it wouldnt cause me to all a sudden be ok with it, it would be an annoyance and burden of my time. Thats just me

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 05:45 PM
i dont know, but i never and i dont think many people associate WNBA and lesbians.

Well they should! :wink:

StockdaleForVeep
06-22-2006, 05:48 PM
Well they should! :wink:

If anything, the lesbian notion ive heard has always been softball and rugby

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 05:53 PM
If anything, the lesbian notion ive heard has always been softball and rugby

and basketball and soccer and golf and...

It's not as predominant as it was in the past because now society has given women permission to participate in athletics but we're out there...everywhere. :wink: Actually, most women's sports organizations go out of their way to portray their athletes as heterosexual (the WNBA is infamous for this).

for the record, my college softball team was almost all straight girls.

1951Campbell
06-22-2006, 06:11 PM
I have been told (by an attorney) that what you suggest can be easily contested by the relative and very often the relative wins. Is there any truth to that?

I would tend to disagree with "very often", at least here in Pennsylvania.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 06:13 PM
I would tend to disagree with "very often", at least here in Pennsylvania.

Hmmmm...ok. That might be something to look into. I don't think my family would ever contest it, but her family...well, let's just say that they haven't really come around.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2006, 06:31 PM
I still can't figure out why heterosexuals seem to feel threatened by homosexuality. I certainly never did.Read this. I highly recommend it. The divide in this country is not between political liberals and conservatives...it's between cultural liberals and conservatives.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931498717/qid=1151015343/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-8522529-0968817?v=glance&n=507846

Kilroy
06-22-2006, 06:33 PM
...but there have been a lot of posters stating that people need to grow thicker skin, etc and that is who I was writing about...

I guess you'd mean me because I said that people need to stop being offended every time someone says something like this.

I was taught from as far back as I can remember that no words can hurt me. That whole sticks and stones thing. I can't tell you how many times I was slurred growing up but I can tell you that the repeat offenders quickly learned that I didn't give a **** what they called me. The words neither diminished me nor defined me. And it usually wasn't too long before they gave up using the racial slurs with me. Others I knew got bent out of shape at the first mention and dealt with the same **** from the same people all thru grade school and high school.

I truly don't see how ozzie using the word *** hurts any gay person in the world unless they allow it to hurt them. The gay community would have been much better served if they simply let out a collective yawn over this. Of course this is my opinion. Feel free to tell me what I'm missing, because by no means do I claim to know everything.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 06:40 PM
I guess you'd mean me because I said that people need to stop being offended every time someone says something like this.

I was taught from as far back as I can remember that no words can hurt me. That whole sticks and stones thing. I can't tell you how many times I was slurred growing up but I can tell you that the repeat offenders quickly learned that I didn't give a **** what they called me. The words neither diminished me nor defined me. And it usually wasn't too long before they gave up using the racial slurs with me. Others I knew got bent out of shape at the first mention and dealt with the same **** from the same people all thru grade school and high school.

I truly don't see how ozzie using the word *** hurts any gay person in the world unless they allow it to hurt them. The gay community would have been much better served if they simply let out a collective yawn over this. Of course this is my opinion. Feel free to tell me what I'm missing, because by no means do I claim to know everything.

*sigh* Once again, I am not hurt by Ozzie's comments. I am hurt by people that think it is ok have a superiority complex over other groups of people. If everyone followed the "sticks and stones" rule and just let it pass, the civil rights movement would have never happened. Some things have to change in order for this to truly be a country where everyone is equal.

TornLabrum
06-22-2006, 06:42 PM
I guess you'd mean me because I said that people need to stop being offended every time someone says something like this.

I was taught from as far back as I can remember that no words can hurt me. That whole sticks and stones thing. I can't tell you how many times I was slurred growing up but I can tell you that the repeat offenders quickly learned that I didn't give a **** what they called me. The words neither diminished me nor defined me. And it usually wasn't too long before they gave up using the racial slurs with me. Others I knew got bent out of shape at the first mention and dealt with the same **** from the same people all thru grade school and high school.

I truly don't see how ozzie using the word *** hurts any gay person in the world unless they allow it to hurt them. The gay community would have been much better served if they simply let out a collective yawn over this. Of course this is my opinion. Feel free to tell me what I'm missing, because by no means do I claim to know everything.

If words were totally harmless, there would be not political demagogues and there would be no need for the crime of inciting to riot.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2006, 06:52 PM
I guess you'd mean me because I said that people need to stop being offended every time someone says something like this.

I was taught from as far back as I can remember that no words can hurt me. That whole sticks and stones thing. I can't tell you how many times I was slurred growing up but I can tell you that the repeat offenders quickly learned that I didn't give a **** what they called me. The words neither diminished me nor defined me. And it usually wasn't too long before they gave up using the racial slurs with me. Others I knew got bent out of shape at the first mention and dealt with the same **** from the same people all thru grade school and high school.

I truly don't see how ozzie using the word *** hurts any gay person in the world unless they allow it to hurt them. The gay community would have been much better served if they simply let out a collective yawn over this. Of course this is my opinion. Feel free to tell me what I'm missing, because by no means do I claim to know everything.It is astounding to me that people continue to equate being called a Pollock or Wop or Mick to being called a ****** or a ******. If you think they're the same, you've led a VERY sheltered life.

For years various groups have been victims of discrimination. Poles, Irish, Italians...they all had their turn. And I'm not talking about insulting language. I'm talking about being denied basic human necessities, like jobs, housing, the ability to walk into a restaurant or send your children to certain schools. Discrimination is always accompanied by stereotyping, which serves to "justify" the discrimination. Poles are dumb, Irish are drunks, Italians are dishonest, Blacks are lazy, Gays are all pedophiles... The slurs we're talking about are not just insults - they are meant to reinforce the stereotyping.

Fortunately, most ethnic groups are, with rare exceptions, no longer victims of discrimination, but the stereotypes and associated slurs persist. While they may be insulting, without the underlying discrimination they don't have the same power. But for those groups who still suffer discrimination, those words are a lot more than insults. They're a part of society's effort to "keep them in their place", and the targets of those slurs instinctively recognize that.

If being called a Mick doesn't bother you, you can thank your lucky stars you don't live in a world where being Irish makes you a second-class citizen.

Kilroy
06-22-2006, 07:00 PM
*sigh* Once again, I am not hurt by Ozzie's comments. I am hurt by people that think it is ok have a superiority complex over other groups of people. If everyone followed the "sticks and stones" rule and just let it pass, the civil rights movement would have never happened. Some things have to change in order for this to truly be a country where everyone is equal.

I don't think I specifically mentioned you as a person who was hurt by the comments. I was aware of your position. However, reading the paper today, there was more than a few people who stated they were hurt and offended by the comments.

The sticks and stones thing doesn't apply to everything. I'd think that doesn't really need an explanation. The civil rights movement was certainly about more than people suffering racial slurs.

PennStater98r
06-22-2006, 07:44 PM
IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the majority of society believes that it is ok to use slurs which infer that an entire group of people is inferior to the rest of society. Homosexuals are not treated as equal human beings and this thread proves it...and that, my friend, is a sad state of affairs.

Here - here PH13. I've been banned a time or two for stating a few political things on this site, but I feel that I need to back this statement up. When we start thinking we're better than a group of people (or a group of people is inferior to us) - we treat them differently. That's a cruel fact of life - unless you can revolve the way you think - and I mean quickly. What's worse - and often times dangerous - is that because we put ourselves in a position where we think we're better, right and more acceptable than another group - we drop slurs/name call, then we turn our back to things that are simply unjust with more concern over that which is convenient, then we fight and cause physical harm- and finally we're part of the problem in the worst kind of way. Not everyone gets to the last part, but by contributing to the other actions, one reinforces some people's thoughts of doing things that are very dangerous.

We ignore injustice, ignorance, violence and bad politics - because we let others convince us that we're right, "those people" are wrong and there's no inbetween. It's subtle, and it takes time for people to get to the stage where they believe it's ok to allow a person to be put in prison for the wrong reasons or to allow a person to not own land, not allow a person to vote or be afforded the things that we all take for granted.

It needs to start with one simple thing - and we could do this when we were kids (which amazes me) - judge others on how they treat you. Like them because they are friendly, get along with you and treat you with respect. Don't dislike them because they are gay, black, white, Arab, a woman, a man or any of these types of qualifiers. Like them because they're good people that lead good lives and try their hardest to respect you and what you stand for all the while reserving any judgements for your actions.

I am not going to sit here and claim that I think children will listen to Ozzie and act like Ozzie in that regard. They'd already do what ever they're going to do - or not do based on what their parents, family and friends have taught them. The problem is though - that what he said is not acceptable. He shouldn't be punished because of the children (parents should be if they're reinforcing their children should listen to Ozzie Guillen and act like him). No, he should be punished for being wrong and being wrong in a hateful way - because the word is a slur - just like racist terms are slurs. They are words used to embarass and hurt another human being, and to use those words is wrong. So, I am not saying he should be suspended or fired, but he should be talked to by his peers, his supervisors, his family and his friends and be told that what he did was wrong. He should have some friendships damaged - those are punishments in themselves.

One last thing - I don't buy the whole, "that's Ozzie being Ozzie," defense. I had a friend who used to get drunk and say really mean things - violent sounding things, and when he sobered - you'd never see a trace of the violent, drunk guy. Every time that mean streak would get in him (due to drinking), his friends would shrug it off and say, "that's Bob being Bob." Some would laugh about it, and some would saying it while shaking their heads. However, every time he'd "be Bob," he'd suffer no consequences the next day. He still had the same friends, and no one lectured him on his behavior. One night, Bob got one of his mean streaks in him, and Bob got into a violent verbal spar with a friend at a party. The two of them started angrily pushing and wrestling around. Bob's friend ended up falling down on the ground in this wrestling match and knocking out his front tooth. Well, Bob lost a lot of his friends that night. People didn't call the fight: Bob just being Bob after that night. However, if friends had made Bob pay a price earlier than that - his friend would not have been physically harmed. People who make slurs and do thing like that will often take it a step further time and again. That's where someone needs to step in and help him to realize he's honestly doing wrong - whether or not it's played off as trying to be funny - it's simply disrespectful - and to ignore respect for your fellow man or woman who has committed no hateful actions against you or others - is simply hateful.

Palehose13
06-22-2006, 08:06 PM
Penn-

Wow. Very moving and powerful post. :worship:

soxruleEP
06-22-2006, 08:49 PM
I'm still wondering about the evolution of the definition of the word "gay".

Years ago it used to mean "happy".

Then at some point in time it was used to describe a homosexual.

Now people are saying that it's a common term to describe just about anything.


I just put it into Microsoft Word's thesaurus and it can't find it. :?:

It has been used in that context since at least the 1930s. [This is I know.]

It probably came into widespread use after the Stonewall [?] Incident in the late '60s/early 70s [?].

Someone a little more enlightened as to history of the gay/lesbian "movement" might be able to give us more certain factual info.

soxruleEP
06-22-2006, 08:53 PM
If anything, the lesbian notion ive heard has always been softball and rugby

Like all generalizations, this is problematic.

However, athletic administration is my business and you can rest assured that women's athletics is often a haven for lesbians. [And I use haven in the truest sense of the word--a place of shelter]

There are proably many gay athletes as well; however, athletics is a culture that will NOT accept homosexuality, so most gay athletes--unless they are a particularly strong individuals--will remain closeted.

soxruleEP
06-22-2006, 08:56 PM
I would tend to disagree with "very often", at least here in Pennsylvania.

A gay couple of my acquaintance had to spend over $10,000 in Illinois to assure the rights that heterosexual married couples for granted.

I am glad to hear that the Keystone State is more enlightened.

soxruleEP
06-22-2006, 08:59 PM
I guess you'd mean me because I said that people need to stop being offended every time someone says something like this.

I was taught from as far back as I can remember that no words can hurt me. That whole sticks and stones thing. I can't tell you how many times I was slurred growing up but I can tell you that the repeat offenders quickly learned that I didn't give a **** what they called me. The words neither diminished me nor defined me. And it usually wasn't too long before they gave up using the racial slurs with me. Others I knew got bent out of shape at the first mention and dealt with the same **** from the same people all thru grade school and high school.

I truly don't see how ozzie using the word *** hurts any gay person in the world unless they allow it to hurt them. The gay community would have been much better served if they simply let out a collective yawn over this. Of course this is my opinion. Feel free to tell me what I'm missing, because by no means do I claim to know everything.

Because language creates the world. If we don't protest when an identifier for a group of people is used as an insult, that attitude towards those people becomes an accepted part of someone's world view.

This is the danger, not whether some individual's feelings are hurt.

soxruleEP
06-22-2006, 09:00 PM
If being called a Mick doesn't bother you, you can thank your lucky stars you don't live in a world where being Irish makes you a second-class citizen.

Excellently put.

caulfield12
06-22-2006, 09:26 PM
"The commissioner did what he had to do," Guillen said. "They don't agree with what I say. Me either. I agree with what I say about Jay. ... I'm not going to change. One thing I'm going to make clear is I apologize to the community, but to Jay, no chance. This thing is on and on for good."

Major League Baseball asked the White Sox to set up the sensitivity training and spokesman Scott Reifert said the team would do so, using its employee assistance program, with specifics to be determined.

Guillen said he wasn't sure what sensitivity training would entail, but would abide by the ruling.

"What class? What is it? Mr. Selig said I have to do something about this," Guillen said. "It was not good for me and baseball to be involved in this."

Guillen said team chairman Jerry Reinsdorf "reprimanded me as a friend."

"Jerry is behind Major League Baseball about this decision to fine me. I respect that. It's good for baseball because I put Bud Selig in a spot he's not supposed to be. It's done and hopefully we will learn from this and move on."

mjmcend
06-22-2006, 10:00 PM
You know what, Guillen has said all the right things since saying the one wrong thing. I applaud him for that.