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DrCrawdad
06-21-2006, 08:37 AM
The Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg212.html) and the Daily Herald (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=201172) have columns about Guillen going after a certain Sun-Times columnist (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/moron.jpg).

Guillen will have to endure the backlash on his latest remarks, and rightfully so. I'm just curious if either the ST or DH writers have taken offense when Sox fans have been slurred as "white trash?"

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 08:40 AM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/arvia/x21-ard1.htm

http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg212.html

This is going to be VERY interesting rest of the week for the ballclub.

Tracey has made his first comments since the demotion, although he has yet to address the issue completely.

Mariotti will be coming back from Dallas and probably heading out to the ballpark tonight.

These two writers were very blunt in their assessments and descriptions of what happened...and they're usually pretty fair and objective IMO.

Dan Mega
06-21-2006, 08:43 AM
Its a fact that we all dislike the Moron, and with good reason. But what Ozzie said crossed the line even if he didn't mean it in the way he said it. I wouldn't be shocked if the MLB gives him a suspension and/or fine for it. I liked how Reifert came out and said they're talking to Ozzie about some of the things he says to the media.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 09:08 AM
Here is the article from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette accusing Guillen of being a "creep"

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06169/699172-87.stm

rocky biddle
06-21-2006, 09:08 AM
I really think Ozzie needs to be suspended for this. If the league doesn't step in the team should at least do something. He's crossed the line. As much as I like Ozzie as a manager I don't like him very much as a person. He needs to learn to keep his much shut and stop letting the press bait him. It's 2006 and there's absolutely no place for this kind of talk. I really don't care if it was meant a different way. Ozzie needs to be disciplined and taught to watch his mouth. His act is growing old fast.

DaveIsHere
06-21-2006, 09:12 AM
I really think Ozzie needs to be suspended for this. If the league doesn't step in the team should at least do something. He's crossed the line. As much as I like Ozzie as a manager I don't like him very much as a person. He needs to learn to keep his much shut and stop letting the press bait him. It's 2006 and there's absolutely no place for this kind of talk. I really don't care if it was meant a different way. Ozzie needs to be disciplined and taught to watch his mouth. His act is growing old fast.

If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.

RedHeadPaleHoser
06-21-2006, 09:14 AM
Guillen will have to endure the backlash on his latest remarks, and rightfully so. I'm just curious if either the ST or DH writers have taken offense when Sox fans have been slurred as "white trash?"

I find it amusing that Couch demands a suspension for Ozzie. I am NOT saying it shouldn't be looked into, but isn't this the same guy who claimed Barrett should be entitled to his day in court, AFTER coldcocking AJ? Anything the media can do to derail this team, they'll do it.

spawn
06-21-2006, 09:17 AM
If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.
Agreed. If Mariotti was gay, then yes, Guillen should be suspended becasue it was an attack on his sexuality. But the word he used has quite a few other uses. I looked it up, in the Wkitionary (http://http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Main_Page). There is a definition there that certainly describes a certain columnist in this town. This is a great example of not understanding different cultures and the words they use and how they are translated here.That word is slang for homosexual in the US, not Venezuela. But hey, we shouldn't expect our sports writers or people in general to try to understand that.

jenn2080
06-21-2006, 09:17 AM
YIKES! A bit over the line I'd say. :dunno: What was he thinking? I find it a bit hard to believe that he is hated as much as Bonds!

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 09:19 AM
If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.


How combative is Guillen? Well, he didnít hesitate to rant at a Chicago newspaper columnist ó absent on this night, by the way ó who has irritated folks in the Sox organization for years.
Guillen sounded a lot like La Russa does when he goes after a journalist. The only difference is, La Russa doesnít use a word offensive to gays like Guillen did. (For the record, I wish Guillen would stop using insensitive language. Itís unbecoming a professional in any line of work, even sports.)

Mike Imren/DH

I have lived in Colombia, South America for the last 10 months.

Yes, maricon (que marica) is a very common expression and putdown that's commonly used. It is used more about a person's manhood than their sexual orientation. Gonorrhea (the STD) is used in Spanish and it's an insult even worse, like being lower than dirt.

Still, Ozzie has already had his issue last year with a "friend" using the word loosely and is smart enough to know better that the connotation is much different and politically-charged in the US. If Mariotti is, in fact, gay...it would be 10 times worse. I don't live in Chicago, so I don't know all the inside info on the Chicago beat reporters.

rocky biddle
06-21-2006, 09:24 AM
If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.

I did read the article. I also read the Southtown article. The fact remains that Ozzie Guillen is a very smart individual who knows what that term means in the United States (where he happens to live and work). There are plenty of other terms he could have used to insult Mariotti's manhood. I understand what he was trying to insinuate, but it was a poor choice of words and I think he should be disciplined.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 09:27 AM
I can't stand JM. He needs to get shipped away to Juneau, Alaska, or better yet San Francisco so they can have the moron covering THEIR moron on the field.

I'm getting sick of the media ripping Ozzie for what he says and does all the time but, yet they can say whatever moronic thing they want about whoever they feel like writing about or talking about on sports-blab radio. The double standard needs to end. Ozzie is a character and sometimes he says and does things he probably shouldn't.

We as Sox fans love him and we all accept that as "Ozzie being Ozzie". It was about time that someone called out JM. It had to be done. The guy is a moron who continues to rip a winning team with a bunch of great guys and a great manager and coaches too.

But, if that quote from Ozzie is true, then I think he crossed the line. Granted, there may very well be a language barrier there and when he says something like that, it may be in a different context than when someone from the USA says it.

I hope that by some miracle what he said isn't true. I love Ozzie. I will always be "in his corner." I hope he gets to manage our White Sox for as long as he wants. But by saying what he said, he wasn't just attacking JM he was alienating a whole group of people, some of which may be Sox fans too.

I think he will be fined/and or suspended. I think it will be deserved. Ozzie needs some time to cool down.

1951Campbell
06-21-2006, 09:27 AM
Ozzie needs to shut the **** up and manage.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 09:31 AM
If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.

I love Ozzie but he was in the USA when he made the remark so in this country it is an attack on his sexuality.

DrCrawdad
06-21-2006, 09:32 AM
Guillen is the manager of the world class, World Champion Chicago White Sox. Guillen needs to live up to that. I don't want a PC wimp as manager, but the reckless, derogatory comments are not befitting a manager of said organization.

Not that Ozzie would accept my advice, but I suggest that he adopt a WSI type approach to the Sun-Times columnist in question, just ignore the nitwit (sorry if that term offends).

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 09:32 AM
I think it's interesting when you juxtapose it with the issues of immigration that are going on in this country.

Do you defend an immigrant that has become a King of the City, the BEST quote ever that makes your job so much easier...the first Latin-American to win the World Series, or do you make him the target because he has gotten too big for his britches (to some)?

I bet the White House press corps must have had the same dilemma when JFK was there and they chose not to write about his extramarital affairs. They craved being part of the insider's group, those that JFK always trusted and hung out with in his personal life.

At some point, even being the best team in baseball won't be enough for JR, KW, Reifert, Boyer to keep defending him (like Bobby Knight).

Then the White Sox might be better served getting a Joe Girardi that we know would never say anything that would have us all cringing. Yes, it would be boring as heck, but OG can't keep saying things week after week like this. He will burn himself out first, I think.

I hope KW and JR sit him down for a serious talk. Because the team is playing so well, it's a lot easier to forgive. If we were in the Indians' position, the heat would be on, but he still has a grace period due to the WS victory.

harwar
06-21-2006, 09:40 AM
Smells like setup to me.
The media is going to really run with this and speaking as someone who has spent some time in south america i know for a fact that the word in question is not uncommon.
With so many who seem to have it in for the White Sox(including those in our own house),i think that Ozzie better learn that he needs to get control of his temper and watch what he says to the media.
Of course i feel that if Ozzie tries to change who he is,then the White Sox will change along with him and the fire that makes this team special may burn away and leave nothing but mediocrity.
Ozzie is,more than likely,going to get booed roundly at the all star game.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 09:43 AM
I thnk we're witnessing this team's "achilles heel" I'm NOT saying he deserves this now but, if in the future the White Sox ever were to fire Ozzie for his outbursts ala Bobby Knight, I don't think the team would ever be the same.

The guys on this team love Ozzie as much as the fans do. I think he brought this team together and gave them that "extra something" that made them into champions.

If he were to suddenly get ripped away, To me, that would destroy the fabric of this team.

I hope that scenario NEVER happens. I hope he manages this team for as long as he wants. I just think this time, his wallet needs to be a little lighter and/or he needs a little "vacation" for a few days that he can use to cool off.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 09:45 AM
I have a feeling this story is going to grab national headlines if Mariotti chooses to fight back in print or on ESPN. It needs to be defused, and is going to divide the Sox fanbase as much as they were divided about the Frank Thomas situation, probably moreso.

OG would be best served to pick up the phone, call him right now and apologize, no matter how difficult that might be for him to do at this point. He's done it in the past.

He might have a libel and slander lawsuit coming his way, as well.

I really don't like the way he attacked someone that wasn't even there to respond, it doesn't sit well with me.

The SunTimes has a huge decision to make...whether to become the story, report the story (you could see Couch was uncomfortable discussing it, tip-toeing through a minefield in writing the story, Inrem basically gave OG a slap on the wrist but certainly did not call for a suspension or reprimand) or let it slide. Depending on how they deal with this, Mariotti is going to have a very difficult time doing his job in the future....a lot like Jason Whitlock has done from time to time in Kansas City with his flamboyant columns criticizing the Chiefs and Royals.

Trav
06-21-2006, 09:59 AM
I can't believe people are talking about suspensions! Get pissy with him. Refuse to agree with him. Hate him all you want. But to suspend him would be plain silly. He used an insensitive remark. Get over it. He will prolly do it again. Laugh at him. Call him close minded and the like. The fact his, he is clearly not a homophobic and just because he is in the states doesn't mean that he isn't hispanic. The post about him being in the USA so he needs to talk like it is more insensitive than calling someone a ***, in my opinion.

Some people need to get thicker skin. When Dusty Baker said that blacks are better at playing in the heat he wasn't suspended. He was called a dumbass. Or was that ok because Dusty is black?

jdm2662
06-21-2006, 10:05 AM
I have a feeling this story is going to grab national headlines if Mariotti chooses to fight back in print or on ESPN. It needs to be defused, and is going to divide the Sox fanbase as much as they were divided about the Frank Thomas situation, probably moreso.

OG would be best served to pick up the phone, call him right now and apologize, no matter how difficult that might be for him to do at this point. He's done it in the past.

He might have a libel and slander lawsuit coming his way, as well.

I really don't like the way he attacked someone that wasn't even there to respond, it doesn't sit well with me.

The SunTimes has a huge decision to make...whether to become the story, report the story (you could see Couch was uncomfortable discussing it, tip-toeing through a minefield in writing the story, Inrem basically gave OG a slap on the wrist but certainly did not call for a suspension or reprimand) or let it slide. Depending on how they deal with this, Mariotti is going to have a very difficult time doing his job in the future....a lot like Jason Whitlock has done from time to time in Kansas City with his flamboyant columns criticizing the Chiefs and Royals.

If it runs the Moron out of town, IMO, it was well worth it. I can't say I didn't laugh my ass off hearing Ozzie's comments, but I do agree it was out of line and unproffessional. Then again, I can't remember when the Moron was proffessional and actually had something insightful.

soxfan13
06-21-2006, 10:10 AM
Ozzie needs to shut the **** up and manage.

DITTO!!!

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 10:16 AM
Obviously, you're not living in the same world of political correctness.

Dusty got away with that because he was black, commenting on black people.

He was not targeting ONE specific person. The situations are entirely different.

John Rocker got into similar hot water and he just made a general comment. Remember that? Part of it was because he was white, part because he was perceived as a redneck personality and because of his outlandish behavior with the Braves, who were rivals with the Mets.

Imagine, I don't know, Barack Obama making an anti-Semitic comment about Reinsdorf. Do you still think he could become president after that? I don't.

This is just a case of the media all getting together and presenting a united front, more or less, that he crossed the line and they have a responsibility to report it.

He doesn't have to have to make the comment to 20 writers, he can say it in the manager's office off the record or to his family or friends or players, but not to the whole world. If he was mad at the Pitt. Post-Gazette reporter, he should have called him or addressed him directly, not taking out on someone that was at the NBA Finals and wasn't there to defend himself.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 10:17 AM
I can't believe people are talking about suspensions! Get pissy with him. Refuse to agree with him. Hate him all you want. But to suspend him would be plain silly. He used an insensitive remark. Get over it. He will prolly do it again. Laugh at him. Call him close minded and the like. The fact his, he is clearly not a homophobic and just because he is in the states doesn't mean that he isn't hispanic. The post about him being in the USA so he needs to talk like it is more insensitive than calling someone a ***, in my opinion.

Some people need to get thicker skin. When Dusty Baker said that blacks are better at playing in the heat he wasn't suspended. He was called a dumbass. Or was that ok because Dusty is black?

Do you remember what happened to John Rocker when he made those insensitive remarks? He was booed everywhere he went. I think it became such a distraction that it ruined his career.

Do we want John Rocker managing the White Sox? NO Am I saying that Ozzie is John Rocker? No, but I think he's getting there.

I'm not saying that the outbursts should stop completely because that's just Ozzie being Ozzie. I think some of his outbursts are funny and they do fire up the team. But, he needs to tone it down a little bit before it becomes a major distraction to himself and to the team ala John Rocker.

What is the best way for him to tone it down a little bit? Send him a message by making his wallet a little lighter and giving him a few days off.

These statements are coming from an Ozzie-fan. I love Ozzie and I love him as our manager. But he crossed the line this time PERIOD.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 10:18 AM
Leave Ozzie alone. I hope they talk about this on Around The Horn.

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 10:19 AM
*****. I try never to attack people online under the protection of being able to hide behind an anonymous moniker, but *****. :angry::angry::angry:

Those of you who are comparing Guillen with Knight need to have your head examined. Bob Knight is the lowest of the low. In the past, he's made references to rape while under the employ of what is supposed to be an institution of higher learning. IU, at their own fault, kept Knight around because he could win basketball games. A university's sole goal is not to win athletic events, but a professional sports team's goal is. And you get mad because the manager uses colorful language?

It's time for the politically correct to move on; their time has passed. And if you think Ozzie's transgressions are on par with those of Knight, time passed you by quite awhile ago.

You think people writing these articles haven't said and done worse things? The only difference is they get to hide, ignoring the plank in their own eye while getting paid to tell the world about the mote in another's. Why? To assuage the public's need to tear down one person in an attempt to build themselves up.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 10:22 AM
How can you even think about comparing what Ozzie called one guy that he (and most of us) doesn't like to what John Rocker said? There's a HUGE difference between a generalization and stereotype (which Rocker did) and a personal put down. Why can Mariotti get away with bad mouthing Ozzie but the minute Ozzie fires back he's a bad guy?

pdimas
06-21-2006, 10:23 AM
Yeah suspend Ozzie :rolleyes:

People are too goddamned concerned with being PC in this damned country. **** it who cares. I hate people *****footing. If people were more direct more would get done. Instead we have to overly worry about hurting someones feelings or insulting someone. Some people need to grow some thicker skin.

Remember he is manager of a baseball team. Not the president of the US or some political figure. A little perspective please.

samram
06-21-2006, 10:26 AM
I think if Tiger Woods is expected to know the meaning of the word "spaz" in the UK, Ozzie should know the meaning of the term "***" in the US. I believe that he was questioning Mariotti's courage, but that doesn't matter- you shouldn't say that. He knows better.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 10:28 AM
If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.

I don't buy that. Ozzie has been in the US long enough to know what the word means here. He let Mariotti get under his skin, which is precisely what the guy wants. Now he can, and probably will, milk this for all it's worth.

That's the problem here. Guillen just helped perpetuate Moronotti's notoriety. And some people will buy into it.

Ozzie will probably get suspended a couple games for this and the Riske incident.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 10:30 AM
How can you even think about comparing what Ozzie called one guy that he (and most of us) doesn't like to what John Rocker said? There's a HUGE difference between a generalization and stereotype (which Rocker did) and a personal put down. Why can Mariotti get away with bad mouthing Ozzie but the minute Ozzie fires back he's a bad guy?

I'm NOT saying Ozzie is the bad guy. I can't stand JM. I think he deserved to be called out.

What Ozzie said was just as bad as some of the things Rocker said. He attacked a person's sexuality and therefore he attacked a whole segment of the population some of which may be Sox fans.

Look I'm NOT saying Ozzie is John Rocker or anywhere near as bad as Rocker But, what i WAS saying is that the distractions caused by saying insensitive things can cost ALOT. It cost Rocker his career (and he deserved it too.)

Ozzies insenitive outbursts keep adding up and may start becoming such a huge distraction to him and this team that it may cost him HIS career. That was my point.

I hope Ozzie NEVER gets fired. I hope he ALWAYS stays just the way he is but, he does need to tone it down a little bit. How do we get him to realize this? By fining him and suspending him.

Trav
06-21-2006, 10:33 AM
Again, I am shocked. Someone actually said that it would be better if Guillen were to say the comments in private instead of being an honest person and telling anyone who asks. Good for Guillen telling people the truth about how he feels. If more people were honest then fewer people would have such tissue paper thin skin and they wouldn't get offended by a dumb ****ing comment!

Did Rocker get suspended? I don't remember. I remember the huge backlash he got but what he said isn't even in the same ball park as Guillen's comment.

Guillen didn't get voted in to be the White Sox manager. He doesn't have to be PC like a public servant. He only has to please one group of people, his bosses.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 10:35 AM
I'm NOT saying Ozzie is the bad guy. I can't stand JM. I think he deserved to be called out.

What Ozzie said was just as bad as some of the things Rocker said. He attacked a person's sexuality and therefore he attacked a whole segment of the population some of which may be Sox fans.

Look I'm NOT saying Ozzie is John Rocker or anywhere near as bad as Rocker But, what i WAS saying is that the distractions caused by saying insensitive things can cost ALOT. It cost Rocker his career (and he deserved it too.)

Ozzies insenitive outbursts keep adding up and may start becoming such a huge distraction to him and this team that it may cost him HIS career. That was my point.

I hope Ozzie NEVER gets fired. I hope he ALWAYS stays just the way he is but, he does need to tone it down a little bit. How do we get him to realize this? By fining him and suspending him.

I'm pretty sure Rocker's inability to get anyone out is what cost him his career.

samram
06-21-2006, 10:36 AM
Again, I am shocked. Someone actually said that it would be better if Guillen were to say the comments in private instead of being an honest person and telling anyone who asks. Good for Guillen telling people the truth about how he feels. If more people were honest then fewer people would have such tissue paper thin skin and they wouldn't get offended by a dumb ****ing comment!

Did Rocker get suspended? I don't remember. I remember the huge backlash he got but what he said isn't even in the same ball park as Guillen's comment.

Guillen didn't get voted in to be the White Sox manager. He doesn't have to be PC like a public servant. He only has to please one group of people, his bosses.

I doubt he's pleasing them with comments like that.

Rocker got a 20 game suspension.

Trav
06-21-2006, 10:37 AM
I hope Ozzie NEVER gets fired. I hope he ALWAYS stays just the way he is but, he does need to tone it down a little bit. How do we get him to realize this? By fining him and suspending him.


So you want him to stay the same or change?

southside rocks
06-21-2006, 10:38 AM
Well, if Ozzie is going to get sanctioned for this, then it's only right to clean up ALL of baseball (and then move on to the other pro sports). Let's start with the Astros manager, who during the World Series called Joe Crede a "*****", which is a term referring to female genitalia. Hoo boy! As a woman, I am highly offended by that! I demand that Garner apologize AND that the Astros hold a "Respect For Vaginas" day at Minute Maid Park. It's only right!

Get a grip, people, these are jocks. They are made up of testosterone and adrenaline. Barak Obama doesn't play for the Sox and Ozzie isn't in the Senate.

:tongue:

Mod edit: And ironically in a post defending Ozzie, you're going to get three days for a language filter violation.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 10:39 AM
I'm pretty sure Rocker's inability to get anyone out is what cost him his career.

Why do you think he went from a good pither to not being able to get anybody out? Could it been the distractions and backlash from what he said getting into his head?

Mr. N Paul Todd
06-21-2006, 10:40 AM
Anyone who defends this idiotic behavior by Ozzie is an idiot themselves. Imagine a professional such as a lawyer or doctor saying the same thing to the media. You're not in Venezuela, Ozzie, and that's a real cheap card to play in defense.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 10:40 AM
You're not living in reality.

He is the FACE of the White Sox right now, one of the brighter faces of baseball in terms of promoting the game to Latin America. He needs to be classier than this.

Did you enjoy his comments about Magglio last year? About putting a hit on the Venezuelan newspaper that wrote an article about Garcia? About Escobar? About ARod?

Nobody in baseball is bigger than the game. For now, OG is good business for the White Sox. But that might not always be the case.

You might not like the John Rocker example, but it's going to be raised.

There's a difference between colorful language and personally skewering them with language offensive to 95% of Americans. There's a reason every columnist reported it, whereas usually OG gets a free pass on his colorful language.

He's not Knight, YET. But he is heading down the same path. Knight's colorful character was overlooked while he was winning 3 NCAA's. When his teams started to struggle past the first round, the heat was turned up and the tide turned against him.

Konerko, Thome, Rowand, Crede, Hermanson, Anderson (etc.) can be engaging without being profane or offensively. It's not THAT hard, is it?
The issue of what the media has done or not done (skeletons in the closet) is not a defense in any way, shape or form. That's like blaming the woman who is raped for wearing a provocative outfit.

The media (certainly the average beat writer) is not getting paid millions of dollars and getting a free meal wherever they go. They are public figures, by nature of their jobs, but not to the same extent that OG has made himself. He's definitely taking the attention away from his team, if that was the goal...

ChiSoxLifer
06-21-2006, 10:40 AM
He's been in this country long enough to know that word is derogatory towards homosexuals. In the infamous words of that great scribe Carl Everett "Shut yo mouths. Just shut yo mouths."

Hawkeroo1980
06-21-2006, 10:40 AM
Ozzie says a bad word and all of a sudden its.... "he should shut up" or "how rude".

In my personal opinion, Guillen can say/do whatever the hell he wants as long as he wins championships. I'm not rooting for the Chicago "Political Correctness" or the Chicago "P's and Q's"

I root for the Chicago White Sox.....and last night they won 20-6 in front of a sold out ballpark against one of the best teams in baseball. Thats all anybody should be concerned with IMO.

Vulgarity is part of life in baseball......don't read into so much. It absolutely sickens me the way reporters/journalists harp on the Manager of the Year. In fact its embarassing to the City of Chicago. Marriotti is a carnival act and personaly, I don't think you could come up with a word/phrase insulting enough to describe that scumbag

Trav
06-21-2006, 10:41 AM
I doubt he's pleasing them with comments like that.

Rocker got a 20 game suspension.

Did you read the comments from the Sox? It pretty much said, we don't dislike any group of peope. We talk to him about some of the things he says.

Pretty much a blow off. As it should be. Let the mediots fight over it. I'm sure the owners are too busy counting the profits coming from last years historic season. A season brought to you in part by....Guillen.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 10:41 AM
So you want him to stay the same or change?

I want him to stay the same. But, just tone it down a little bit with some of the things he just blurts out.

I like some of his outbursts. I think he uses that to fire up his team. But, he needs to cool it just a little bit, not completely.

spiffie
06-21-2006, 10:42 AM
Yeah suspend Ozzie :rolleyes:

People are too goddamned concerned with being PC in this damned country. **** it who cares. I hate people *****footing. If people were more direct more would get done. Instead we have to overly worry about hurting someones feelings or insulting someone. Some people need to grow some thicker skin.

Remember he is manager of a baseball team. Not the president of the US or some political figure. A little perspective please.
Okay, here's some perspective. Ozzie is a public representative of an organization that publically prides itself on tolerance. He is coming out to the media and flagrantly violating that company policy as the single most public voice of that organization. If the idea that not insulting an entire group of people by saying the idea of being one of them is an insult is too "PC" for you, is the idea of don't **** with your boss old-school enough?

That said, I'd give him a token 1-game sit-down. Just enough to show that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. There are far worse things in baseball than a guy who says a juvenile stupid thing, so to let it get out of hand and become a media firestorm would just be distracting to the team. Ozzie's job is to take the heat off of the team, but in this case I see it reflecting back in terms of media scrutiny and unwanted attention, which to me is the worst part of the situation.

kevin57
06-21-2006, 10:42 AM
I don't like Ozzie's language, but the media show their hypocrisy in at least two ways:

1) Moronotti (and many others) slander and slur people they don't like (E.g., can JM ever not spew venom when talking about Jerry Krause). They can dish it out but not take it. Remember just a couple of weeks ago, Mononotti was advocating that the demur, diplomatic Mark Cuban take over the Cubs? :o:

2) The media goads Ozzie on. Granted, he takes the bait, but they love the copy. Ozzie sells their papers and increases their ratings, but let's see how they turn on him.

Trav
06-21-2006, 10:43 AM
Well, if Ozzie is going to get sanctioned for this, then it's only right to clean up ALL of baseball (and then move on to the other pro sports). Let's start with the Astros manager, who during the World Series called Joe Crede a "*****", which is a term referring to female genitalia. Hoo boy! As a woman, I am highly offended by that! I demand that Garner apologize AND that the Astros hold a "Respect For Vaginas" day at Minute Maid Park. It's only right!

Get a grip, people, these are jocks. They are made up of testosterone and adrenaline. Barak Obama doesn't play for the Sox and Ozzie isn't in the Senate.

:tongue:
Now that is funny.

Deuce
06-21-2006, 10:45 AM
I love Ozzie, but wrong is wrong. Ozzie is an American citizen, living in America and managing the world champions of America's Pastime. If he doesn't realize that calling somone a *** to the national press in uniform is wrong, a bit of time off will help. Its not about being PC, it is about not being a complete idiot.

Calling someone a *** says more about you than it does about the person you are trying to insult. If he feels that way, he should keep it to himself.

Deuce

SOXPHILE
06-21-2006, 10:45 AM
Nothing good can come of this. I am very un-"pc" , and could be considered as insensitive as they come. But, I can't be at work shooting my mouth off on racial/political/religious/sexual-orientation issues. Look, I can't stand The Moron either, but for cripes sake, Ozzie ! You're the MANAGER of a Major League Baseball team, one that won the World Series last year. There comes a time, (or times) when you have to bite your tongue. Stop letting these idiots in the media bait you like that. Try not to worry or get worked up over what some jackass hack "columnist" is always writing or saying. This plays right into his/their hands. Now, they have enough fodder to rip into you and the Sox for the next week, and The Moron gets more attention, this time playing the victim. I highly doubt he'll get suspended. I don't think ripping on and blurting out offensive words about a "columnist" merits a suspension. I'm sure he'll get a talking to from Kenny and Jerry. MLB may levy some small fine against him, to be donated to some charity or other non for profit group. I duck my head and hope this blows over relatively quick.

samram
06-21-2006, 10:45 AM
Did you read the comments from the Sox? It pretty much said, we don't dislike any group of peope. We talk to him about some of the things he says.

Pretty much a blow off. As it should be. Let the mediots fight over it. I'm sure the owners are too busy counting the profits coming from last years historic season. A season brought to you in part by....Guillen.

No, that's not a blow off. That's corporate speak for "Sorry about that. We've told him not to do that anymore."

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 10:47 AM
If you read the article the word he used is not an attack on his sexuality, as it is used in his country it is an attack on his courage.

Well, honestly that's even worse. To equate someone's sexual preferences with their honor/courage/fortitude is disturbing. I realize that calling someone gay or a *** has become slang for "uncool" or "sick" or "stupid" and it's a disturbing trend. I would be that a LOT of people on this board have a family member who is gay and there is a moderator on these forums who is openly gay. It's simply offensive to use these terms in the way they are used.

Of course the word *** is an offensive term in it's own right on par with any of the common ethnic slurs.

Trav
06-21-2006, 10:47 AM
Okay, here's some perspective. Ozzie is a public representative of an organization that publically prides itself on tolerance. He is coming out to the media and flagrantly violating that company policy as the single most public voice of that organization. If the idea that not insulting an entire group of people by saying the idea of being one of them is an insult is too "PC" for you, is the idea of don't **** with your boss old-school enough?

Prides itself on tolerance? When did they become the ACLU White Sox? The Sox, just like every other organization out there to make money prides itself on not pissing off people who give them money. And I dout there will be a huge backlash from the gay community becaues I know a few gay folks and not one is offended by the term he used. I'm sure there are some gay people who are but I doubt most even care about any manager's vocabulary.

rdwj
06-21-2006, 10:52 AM
OG would be best served to pick up the phone, call him right now and apologize, no matter how difficult that might be for him to do at this point. He's done it in the past.

Pure insanity. Ozzie already explained what he meant. If the team wants him to make a statement about misusing the word - fine. He should say that he has no idea if Jay is a homosexual or not, but he does know that he lacks courage.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 10:52 AM
So you want him to stay the same or change?

I would like Ozzie to stay the same with respect to how he manages the team and learn to be a bit more sensative and censor himself a bit when addressing the media.

He could have just as easily called Moronotti a gutless idiot and no one would have batted an eye. What he said crossed the line into something else. It was a bad move, period.

Defending it based on his results as a manger is stupid. The ends do NOT always justify the means and Ozzie has a responsibility to present a somewhat respectable public personna.

Jerko
06-21-2006, 10:54 AM
I just wish Ozzie would stick to managing the White Sox and not making a whole media war with pissass Jay. This is starting to remind me of when the other team in town called the press box to complain about Stone. We see how their season went after that event. CONCENTRATE on baseball. As for the word in question; well, like everything, some people will be offended by it, some won't. That word is thrown around a lot by people who don't really mean it literally. That said, Ozzie should know better and keep his opinions in the locker room. An unmiked locker room.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 10:55 AM
Why do you think he went from a good pither to not being able to get anybody out? Could it been the distractions and backlash from what he said getting into his head?

No not at all.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 10:55 AM
Well, if Ozzie is going to get sanctioned for this, then it's only right to clean up ALL of baseball (and then move on to the other pro sports). Let's start with the Astros manager, who during the World Series called Joe Crede a "*****", which is a term referring to female genitalia. Hoo boy! As a woman, I am highly offended by that! I demand that Garner apologize AND that the Astros hold a "Respect For Vaginas" day at Minute Maid Park. It's only right!

Get a grip, people, these are jocks. They are made up of testosterone and adrenaline. Barak Obama doesn't play for the Sox and Ozzie isn't in the Senate.

:tongue:

Mod edit: And ironically in a post defending Ozzie, you're going to get three days for a language filter violation.

Once again someone misses the point. ***** is actually a term for a cat which was bastradized into the slang term you refer to. No different than calling someone a scardy-cat and MILES AWAY from calling someone an offensive slang term for homosexual.

spiffie
06-21-2006, 10:56 AM
Prides itself on tolerance? When did they become the ACLU White Sox?
Not quite sure what the ACLU has to do with it, and since that way lay ****house, I say nothing. As for tolerance, Reinsdorf's teams have always been progressive in their hiring. He's never been afraid to put talented people in his organization, regardless of race, gender, and I bet sexual preference even if we don't know about it. Or to put it in other terms, if a front office employee in a cube went and called someone else in the room by that name, how long would they be employed?

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 10:56 AM
Anyone who defends this idiotic behavior by Ozzie is an idiot themselves. Imagine a professional such as a lawyer or doctor saying the same thing to the media. You're not in Venezuela, Ozzie, and that's a real cheap card to play in defense.

I think you should get banned because you just called me and idiot.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 10:57 AM
When is the last time a sitting major league general manager had a libel and slander lawsuit against him during the season? Theoretically, he might even have to miss time from the team to defend himself in court.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 10:58 AM
Prides itself on tolerance? When did they become the ACLU White Sox? The Sox, just like every other organization out there to make money prides itself on not pissing off people who give them money. And I dout there will be a huge backlash from the gay community becaues I know a few gay folks and not one is offended by the term he used. I'm sure there are some gay people who are but I doubt most even care about any manager's vocabulary.

And you know this how? Because you say so? Because you did a scientific survey? Because it fits your views of reality?

How can you defend this? It's indefensible...

fquaye149
06-21-2006, 10:58 AM
Well, honestly that's even worse. To equate someone's sexual preferences with their honor/courage/fortitude is disturbing. I realize that calling someone gay or a *** has become slang for "uncool" or "sick" or "stupid" and it's a disturbing trend. I would be that a LOT of people on this board have a family member who is gay and there is a moderator on these forums who is openly gay. It's simply offensive to use these terms in the way they are used.

Of course the word *** is an offensive term in it's own right on par with any of the common ethnic slurs.

Keep in mind in a lot of cultures, ESPECIALLY Latin-American cultures, it's a completely different situation. He apologized for it immediately, and it wasn't a half-assed apology where he says "I'm sorry if anyone was offended."

Look: It's a bad thing, and he shouldn't have said it. But I'm from Wisconsin and grew up with everybody i know saying "gay" to mean the exact same things and it's taken me a long long time to catch myself everytime I say it out of habit.

That doesn't mean it's right...but I really don't think it was as malicious as all that. Yes that's the deconstructionist reading of it, and no there's nothing terribly inaccurate among that...but it's the same force of habit as calling Jon Garland Judy Garland or Michael Barrett Michelle Barrett. I doubt the people who are doing it even stop to think they're hurting women and if you brought it up to them they would regret having done it (either that or get defensive:wink:)

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 10:59 AM
I think you should get banned because you just called me and idiot.

tough...

Irishsox1
06-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Guillen called Jay Mariotti a ***....what's the problem here? It would be different if he called the fans of San Francisco ****, like Julian Tavarez did, if would be different if he said what Rocker did, who's comments were about ordinary New York residents, but were talking about Mariotti. The guy spreads hate and negativity and gets paid for it. I hope the Sox continue to attack this clown until he is run out of Chicago. I personally wouldn't call him a ***, but I would call him a crappy "writer", and a hate spewing gerbil.

Trav
06-21-2006, 11:00 AM
I would like Ozzie to stay the same with respect to how he manages the team and learn to be a bit more sensative and censor himself a bit when addressing the media.

He could have just as easily called Moronotti a gutless idiot and no one would have batted an eye. What he said crossed the line into something else. It was a bad move, period.

Defending it based on his results as a manger is stupid. The ends do NOT always justify the means and Ozzie has a responsibility to present a somewhat respectable public personna.

I didn't justify what he did. I simply think that the board members are not going to fire him because of it.

I didn't say what he said was right. Or wrong. I simply think that what he said isn't suspension worthy.

For my last comment on the matter I will say that I am suprised how many people are offended by his comments. And I am a little sad that people don't care that he says stuff like this only that he said it in public.

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 11:00 AM
I really don't care what the term (as translated into Spanish) means in Venezuela. Ozzie has been in the major leagues in the United States for over 20 years now. He knows what the term means here, and he should know better.

That being said, I think suspension is a bit much. I would suggest a hefty fine (maybe the equivalent in salary to a 5-game suspension) and some sensitivity training.

fquaye149
06-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Once again someone misses the point. ***** is actually a term for a cat which was bastradized into the slang term you refer to. No different than calling someone a scardy-cat and MILES AWAY from calling someone an offensive slang term for homosexual.

VC, poorly played. Every single slang term for homosexual comes from something innocuous. What did gay mean 50 years ago? Queer? and of course the cigarette/bundle of sticks words.

***** is highly offensive, it's asterisked out on this message board and it AIN'T because people don't like to be called "fraidy cats"

DeadMoney
06-21-2006, 11:02 AM
He could have just as easily called Moronotti a gutless idiot and no one would have batted an eye.

But if that, or any other 'conservative' term(s) isn't in his vocabulary, and the term he used was the most conservative term in his native language, what is he to do? Say nothing like some are suggesting? Learn the language MORE, when he has probably tried to learn more and more and more for 20 years now? You sometimes can only learn so much of something that may seem completely foreign to you.

At some point, a human-being has to stick up for himself/themselves and Ozzie is sticking up for his team and players with the media that CONSISTENTLY takes shots at his team. Sometimes it's not as easy as all of you are making it to be. If someone hits you once, then twice, then three times - are you going to stand there and let them hit you again before hitting them back? I know physical and verbal arguments are largely different, but they still have the same principles associated with them.

These hypocritical two-faced mediots have no room to talk.

SoxFan78
06-21-2006, 11:03 AM
I love ozzie and would back him up for anything he says, but he crossed the line here. Do I have a problem with it? He called out JM when JM has been ripping Ozzie for his whole career. I dont have a problem with it, but he shouldnt be using that slang term. He could of used a bunch of other words to express his anger, but he chose a wrong one.

One game suspension to make him think what he said. Thats all, boy oh boy, the media is gonna have a field day with this.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 11:04 AM
I didn't justify what he did. I simply think that the board members are not going to fire him because of it.

I didn't say what he said was right. Or wrong. I simply think that what he said isn't suspension worthy.

For my last comment on the matter I will say that I am suprised how many people are offended by his comments. And I am a little sad that people don't care that he says stuff like this only that he said it in public.

I doubt there is anyone posting who will be honest who hasn't told an off color joke or used an offensive term when behind closed doors with their close friends.

Personally, I find the whole homosexual = less respectable/capable/human putdown trend to be offensive. Maybe this will actually bring it to light and make people realize how stupid they sound when they do it.

Yes, it matters what Ozzie says to the press because the world is watching. Thus has it ever been, thus will it ever be.

Deuce
06-21-2006, 11:09 AM
Prides itself on tolerance? When did they become the ACLU White Sox? The Sox, just like every other organization out there to make money prides itself on not pissing off people who give them money. And I dout there will be a huge backlash from the gay community becaues I know a few gay folks and not one is offended by the term he used. I'm sure there are some gay people who are but I doubt most even care about any manager's vocabulary.1. Apples and oranges. The context of the word in the statement was offensive. He was not out with a few buddies, drinking beer and jibing one another on their fashion sense (or lack there of). He is not gay and calling a gay companion a *** (presumably in jest). He meant it to be offensive, and it was taken as such.

2. Now one, regardless of their sexual orientation, should be compared to that jackass. Moronotti is a first class *******. Gay people do not deserve to be pushed down to his level, simply because they are gay. Much, much more is needed to be the equivalent of that ****ing tool.

Deuce

oeo
06-21-2006, 11:10 AM
He did cross the line, but I love what he does that goes unnoticed. He goes off on some of these tirades, and they talk about him, not his team. I still think he takes a lot of pressure off his team by saying some of the dumb things he says.

Here's an idea for the Moron: leave town and never come back. Better yet, leave the country and never come back. That guy was born to cause trouble.

fquaye149
06-21-2006, 11:10 AM
I doubt there is anyone posting who will be honest who hasn't told an off color joke or used an offensive term when behind closed doors with their close friends.

Personally, I find the whole homosexual = less respectable/capable/human putdown trend to be offensive. Maybe this will actually bring it to light and make people realize how stupid they sound when they do it.

Yes, it matters what Ozzie says to the press because the world is watching. Thus has it ever been, thus will it ever be.

Ozzie needs to think before he speaks. I bet we can all agree on that.

Will this make Ozzie think before he speaks? I don't know if we can count on that miracle.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 11:12 AM
VC, poorly played. Every single slang term for homosexual comes from something innocuous. What did gay mean 50 years ago? Queer? and of course the cigarette/bundle of sticks words.

***** is highly offensive, it's asterisked out on this message board and it AIN'T because people don't like to be called "fraidy cats"

Valid points all. The funny thing is that to a large extent the putdown has come full circle and translates as "fraidy cat", but you are 100% correct.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 11:15 AM
But if that, or any other 'conservative' term(s) isn't in his vocabulary, and the term he used was the most conservative term in his native language, what is he to do? Say nothing like some are suggesting? Learn the language MORE, when he has probably tried to learn more and more and more for 20 years now? You sometimes can only learn so much of something that may seem completely foreign to you.

At some point, a human-being has to stick up for himself/themselves and Ozzie is sticking up for his team and players with the media that CONSISTENTLY takes shots at his team. Sometimes it's not as easy as all of you are making it to be. If someone hits you once, then twice, then three times - are you going to stand there and let them hit you again before hitting them back? I know physical and verbal arguments are largely different, but they still have the same principles associated with them.

These hypocritical two-faced mediots have no room to talk.

If indeed Ozzie immediately apologized (as someone posted above) then he has full awareness of what the term means in English, so defending it as a Spanglish slip of the tongue doesn't work.

champagne030
06-21-2006, 11:15 AM
Personally, I find the whole homosexual = less respectable/capable/human putdown trend to be offensive. Maybe this will actually bring it to light and make people realize how stupid they sound when they do it.

It's not a trend. It's been going on forever. It's not right, but it's not going to change in your lifetime.

Deuce
06-21-2006, 11:17 AM
If indeed Ozzie immediately apologized (as someone posted above) then he has full awareness of what the term means in English, so defending it as a Spanglish slip of the tongue doesn't work.Perfect lawyer answer... I'm impressed. :thumbsup:

Deuce
(...and yes, I am a lawyer and am not being sarcastic.)

fquaye149
06-21-2006, 11:17 AM
If indeed Ozzie immediately apologized (as someone posted above) then he has full awareness of what the term means in English, so defending it as a Spanglish slip of the tongue doesn't work.

The defense is more a CULTURAL slip of the tongue... but it's not really a defense. The only thing to say is that Ozzie doesn't really feel that way about homosexuals, which may or may not be true. Ozzie claims it is true and since he grew up in Latin America, etc. etc. etc.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 11:18 AM
It's not a trend. It's been going on forever. It's not right, but it's not going to change in your lifetime.

How old are you? No one used the term "gay" as a putdown when I was growing up. The common useage of it in that context has developed in the last 10-20 years and possibly more recently. I don't recall hearing it prior to my hearing loss in 1997. So, from my perspective it seems to be a recent development.

batmanZoSo
06-21-2006, 11:21 AM
We all say things like that in haste while venting. Hell, I think I did this morning.

veeter
06-21-2006, 11:21 AM
I really think Ozzie needs to be suspended for this. If the league doesn't step in the team should at least do something. He's crossed the line. As much as I like Ozzie as a manager I don't like him very much as a person. He needs to learn to keep his much shut and stop letting the press bait him. It's 2006 and there's absolutely no place for this kind of talk. I really don't care if it was meant a different way. Ozzie needs to be disciplined and taught to watch his mouth. His act is growing old fast.Lighten up.

champagne030
06-21-2006, 11:22 AM
How old are you? No one used the term "gay" as a putdown when I was growing up. The common useage of it in that context has developed in the last 10-20 years and possibly more recently. I don't recall hearing it prior to my hearing loss in 1997. So, from my perspective it seems to be a recent development.

The slang use of gay has been around significantly longer than 10-20 years. My point wasn't one specific word, but various offensive terms have been used for homosexuals forever and will not end for a long, long time. The words may change, but the meaning certainly does not.

Mickster
06-21-2006, 11:22 AM
[teal]:fireozzie[\teal]

SOecks
06-21-2006, 11:22 AM
If indeed Ozzie immediately apologized (as someone posted above) then he has full awareness of what the term means in English, so defending it as a Spanglish slip of the tongue doesn't work.

I'll check again but I think he apologized right after a reporter informed him how offensive that word was. If that's the case, he said it, realized he screwed up, and made his apology right away. To me it's over with because of that. If he does it again, that's a different story. I like his fiestiness in general and with the media, but don't want his or the organization's image tarnished for some stupid off the cuff remarks. He already seems to be hated among more and more teams and people around the league. Why fan the flames?

SouthSide_HitMen
06-21-2006, 11:23 AM
*****. I try never to attack people online under the protection of being able to hide behind an anonymous moniker, but *****. :angry::angry::angry:

Those of you who are comparing Guillen with Knight need to have your head examined. Bob Knight is the lowest of the low.

:rolleyes:

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 11:24 AM
Okay, I have lived in Colombia, South America for 10 months now, speak Spanish everyday (I had 3 years between high school and college in the late 80's and early 90's) and I know the EXACT meaning of every word that is offensive to Spanish people, why it is offensive and NOT TO USE IT.

You can use the excuse that I am around high school students...but a major league baseball club has more interesting and candid clubhouse conversations than I've ever witnessed in a school (I used to work for the Augusta GreenJackets for two seasons, and, believe me, I heard enough of these postgame conversations with players, coaches and umpires at places like Hooters to last a lifetime, lol)....

You just kind of roll your eyes when someone says something offensive, but OG has no excuse for not knowing that using it in Venezuela or Latin America is entirely different from using it in the US, as a United States citizen.

batmanZoSo
06-21-2006, 11:28 AM
Ozzie says a bad word and all of a sudden its.... "he should shut up" or "how rude".

In my personal opinion, Guillen can say/do whatever the hell he wants as long as he wins championships. I'm not rooting for the Chicago "Political Correctness" or the Chicago "P's and Q's"

I root for the Chicago White Sox.....and last night they won 20-6 in front of a sold out ballpark against one of the best teams in baseball. Thats all anybody should be concerned with IMO.

Vulgarity is part of life in baseball......don't read into so much. It absolutely sickens me the way reporters/journalists harp on the Manager of the Year. In fact its embarassing to the City of Chicago. Marriotti is a carnival act and personaly, I don't think you could come up with a word/phrase insulting enough to describe that scumbag

I agree with everything there.

"Guillen needs to learn to bla bla bla." Look, he's never going to "learn" anything. He says stuff publicly, which everyone else says behind closed doors. A politician he's not. Just keep winning, Ozzie. **** em.

DeadMoney
06-21-2006, 11:29 AM
If indeed Ozzie immediately apologized (as someone posted above) then he has full awareness of what the term means in English, so defending it as a Spanglish slip of the tongue doesn't work.

True. And upon second thought, he could've said many, many things that we all know he is capable of saying - idiot, loser, etc. - but he chose the very wrong term. I believe Couch explained that he double-checked with Ozzie and when he notified him of the derogatory meaning, Ozzie immediately apologized and backpedaled, but Couch and others still took issue with it. My point was more about several things combined. First, things are translated differently, and no matter how you look at it, Ozzie's first language is still Spanish. Also, given the fact that things come out wrong in the heat of discussion, his Spanish/English issues, and the fact that he already apologized/backpedaled should show that mistakes can easily be made. And for those who compare him to Rocker, give me a break.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 11:33 AM
Here we go, how long before ESPN, CNNSI and CBSSPORTSLINE start running with the story....Mariotti press conferences....questions towards Selig about whether he will do anything....Gay and Lesbian protests at the ballpark?

This is NOT going away SOON.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0606210202jun21,1,4401278.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 11:34 AM
The slang use of gay has been around significantly longer than 10-20 years. My point wasn't one specific word, but various offensive terms have been used for homosexuals forever and will not end for a long, long time. The words may change, but the meaning certainly does not.

Gay by itself to describe a homosexual is not offensive as I understand it.

Saying "That is so gay" - meaning stupid/silly/gross/bad takes the innocuous slang term for homosexual and equates it to being bad.

The second part is what I take offense to.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 11:34 AM
Mariotti is on The Score right now.

CHIsoxNation
06-21-2006, 11:35 AM
Jay is being interviewed on the SCORE right now if anyone wants to hear what he has to say...(not that anyone does anyway).

daveeym
06-21-2006, 11:35 AM
I think it's interesting when you juxtapose it with the issues of immigration that are going on in this country.

Do you defend an immigrant that has become a King of the City, the BEST quote ever that makes your job so much easier...the first Latin-American to win the World Series, or do you make him the target because he has gotten too big for his britches (to some)?

I bet the White House press corps must have had the same dilemma when JFK was there and they chose not to write about his extramarital affairs. They craved being part of the insider's group, those that JFK always trusted and hung out with in his personal life.

At some point, even being the best team in baseball won't be enough for JR, KW, Reifert, Boyer to keep defending him (like Bobby Knight).

Then the White Sox might be better served getting a Joe Girardi that we know would never say anything that would have us all cringing. Yes, it would be boring as heck, but OG can't keep saying things week after week like this. He will burn himself out first, I think.

I hope KW and JR sit him down for a serious talk. Because the team is playing so well, it's a lot easier to forgive. If we were in the Indians' position, the heat would be on, but he still has a grace period due to the WS victory.You made the point I was going to make and I won't expand upon it and roadhouse the thread. I would have taken a different angle but you raised the issue and I'll just add this without trying to make this political. Why is it respect and learn other's cultures except when it's the Manager of the White Sox? While Couch couldn't be bothered to do the research, it seems the researchers here at WSI found that Guillen's explanation of the meaning is accurate and pretty fitting to the moron.

Funny how couch is defending his "teammate" from the bean ball yet all these "creeps" ripped ozzie for going after Tracey for not doing so.

And as mentioned, calling for a suspension here when they all generally took the position that AJ deserved it and Barrett should get off scott free. Pathetic.

DaleJRFan
06-21-2006, 11:39 AM
I love Ozzie but he was in the USA when he made the remark so in this country it is an attack on his sexuality.

You've gotta be kidding... So if we were in Britain, he'd be calling him a cigarette?

Who cares? The Sox pound the cardinals, and this is what the media (and us) are talking about? Wow.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 11:40 AM
I'll check again but I think he apologized right after a reporter informed him how offensive that word was. If that's the case, he said it, realized he screwed up, and made his apology right away. To me it's over with because of that. If he does it again, that's a different story. I like his fiestiness in general and with the media, but don't want his or the organization's image tarnished for some stupid off the cuff remarks. He already seems to be hated among more and more teams and people around the league. Why fan the flames? Well the only point couch has is that this is the "again" time. He used the term last year and couch mentioned it in his article. I remember the incident but not the details.

thepaulbowski
06-21-2006, 11:41 AM
Funny how couch is defending his "teammate" from the bean ball yet all these "creeps" ripped ozzie for going after Tracey for not doing so.

And as mentioned, calling for a suspension here when they all generally took the position that AJ deserved it and Barrett should get off scott free. Pathetic.

It is the Chicago media: where investigation and credibility go out the window.

rdwj
06-21-2006, 11:41 AM
Mariotti is on The Score right now.

What a complete fool. He's trying to play as if he's been Mr Fair to the Sox and JR. LOL - does ANYONE buy his garbage?

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 11:41 AM
*****. I try never to attack people online under the protection of being able to hide behind an anonymous moniker, but *****. :angry::angry::angry:

Those of you who are comparing Guillen with Knight need to have your head examined. Bob Knight is the lowest of the low.

:rolleyes:

or an anonymous smilie. :redneck

SouthSide_HitMen
06-21-2006, 11:44 AM
It is the Chicago media: where investigation and credibility go out the window.

Bingo! Best not to purchase / listen to it. Comparing any group of human beings to the windsock is offensive. The press is most outraged with the fact that the White Sox / Ozzie think so little of people like the windsock. Par for the course.

Edit - The Windsock is pathetic. He has spent 5 minutes ripping the entire organization, saying he is in fear of his physical safety, saying Hawk is to blame for death threats made toward him, saying his paper is as beholden to the White Sox as the Cubs are to the Tribune. Now he is saying the Score is in the back pocket of the White Sox and someone hear should not have the fear to criticize the White Sox.

*****.

Radio off - that is what I get for listening to / reading any Chicago based media output.

SOXPHILE
06-21-2006, 11:44 AM
Jay is being interviewed on the SCORE right now if anyone wants to hear what he has to say...(not that anyone does anyway).

Yeah, he's on now. Hooo Boy, here we go. He's already saying it's a big deal, and how we can be sure they'll be talking about in on Around The Horn. I said in an earlier post how I feel, and that I disagree with what Ozzie did. But Marriotti is loving this. Shame on the Score for even considering having him on the air. This skid mark is going to be ALL over media around the country talking about this. He's already playing the victim, saying he knows things about the team "behind the scenes", he's a "columnist", etc. :angry:

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 11:45 AM
What a complete fool. He's trying to play as if he's been Mr Fair to the Sox and JR. LOL - does ANYONE buy his garbage?

He just called Ozzie a jackass, as a big friend of donkeys I think Jay should get a couple of day suspension and a huge fine.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 11:45 AM
You've gotta be kidding... So if we were in Britain, he'd be calling him a cigarette?

Who cares? The Sox pound the cardinals, and this is what the media (and us) are talking about? Wow.Exactly, (and thome25 this is no way directed to you since i dont' know you) but in general people need to just get thicker skin. It's a loudmouth esl manager not some skinhead standing on your doorstep. As an organization the sox should be concerned as any other company should be when an employee pop's off. However, I feel they've taken the appropriate steps especially since I don't see Ozzie hurting business for them. Bring this debate up in 3-7 years when the Sox MAY suck and let everyone take pot shots at him to get him canned, like what's going on up north.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 11:46 AM
I'm not too sure about this but isn't Mariotti being on The Score a conflict of interest because he's an employee of ESPN?

Thome25
06-21-2006, 11:47 AM
You've gotta be kidding... So if we were in Britain, he'd be calling him a cigarette?

Who cares? The Sox pound the cardinals, and this is what the media (and us) are talking about? Wow.

I know that this is uncharted ground for us as fans but yeah, this is what it's like to be WORLD CHAMPIONS. Our team and it's manager is under the microscope more than ever before because we won it all.

That's why we're talking about this instead of the White Sox pounding the Cards.

We're being covered nationally more than ever before. We can't be setting an example like this or projecting this kind of image nationally.

This has to get fixed and fixed fast. Mariotti is on the Score and he says that they'll be talking about this on around the horn because it's a huge national story.

It's time for the White Sox and/or MLB to start some spin control. The White Sox need to have a press conference with Ozzie and have him publicly apologize and to announce some kind of punishment for Ozzie.

CHIsoxNation
06-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Yeah, he's on now. Hooo Boy, here we go. He's already saying it's a big deal, and how we can be sure they'll be talking about in on Around The Horn. I said in an earlier post how I feel, and that I disagree with what Ozzie did. But Marriotti is loving this. Shame on the Score for even considering having him on the air. This skid mark is going to be ALL over media around the country talking about this. He's already playing the victim, saying he knows things about the team "behind the scenes", he's a "columnist", etc. :angry:

Yep, this guy is going to make this a huge deal. Ozzie was wrong and should apologize and possibly be punished somehow but this thing is going to be the talk of the baseball world because of this big mouth. I'm glad I won't be able to watch Around The Horn today, I'd probably end up breaking the television.

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 11:50 AM
I don't like Ozzie's language, but the media show their hypocrisy in at least two ways:

1) Moronotti (and many others) slander and slur people they don't like (E.g., can JM ever not spew venom when talking about Jerry Krause). They can dish it out but not take it. Remember just a couple of weeks ago, Mononotti was advocating that the demur, diplomatic Mark Cuban take over the Cubs? :o:

2) The media goads Ozzie on. Granted, he takes the bait, but they love the copy. Ozzie sells their papers and increases their ratings, but let's see how they turn on him.

:hug:

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 11:51 AM
He just compared the Tribune's relationship with the Cubs to the Sun-Times relationship with the Sox and said they're similar?

champagne030
06-21-2006, 11:51 AM
Gay by itself to describe a homosexual is not offensive as I understand it.

Saying "That is so gay" - meaning stupid/silly/gross/bad takes the innocuous slang term for homosexual and equates it to being bad.

The second part is what I take offense to.

And the kids in my neighborhood would often say "you're so gay" to many different actions. This was about 30 years ago and I'm sure most of us didn't even know what it meant, but we learned the phrase from our older siblings.

skottyj242
06-21-2006, 11:53 AM
He just compared Ozzie to Marge Schott.

spawn
06-21-2006, 11:53 AM
I can't believe you guys are actually listening to him. You won't read his written garbage but you'll listen to it. Ozzie probably shouldn't have made the comment, but as I stated earlier the word means something different to him. The thing that pisses me off is now this moron (Mariotti) is getting more airtime than usual and he will now try to play the innocent victim. GMAB.

BainesHOF
06-21-2006, 11:56 AM
To call someone gay as an insult is incredibly ignorant. The scene of hawkers selling t-shirts outside the Cell calling Wrigley Field the "World's Largest Gay Bar" is pathetic. It's sad that some people find homophobic humor funny.

The Sox need to do something about what Ozzie said. At the very least a public apology is in order. The Sox have many fans who are gay, and probably some employees, too, and maybe even a player or two.

In the bigger picture, the organization needs to reel in Ozzie. His mouth is overshadowing the team.

CHIsoxNation
06-21-2006, 11:57 AM
I can't believe you guys are actually listening to him. You won't read his written garbage but you'll listen to it. Ozzie probably shouldn't have madde the comment, but as i stated earlier the word means something different to him. The thing that pisses me off is now this moron (Mariotti) is getting more airtime than usual.

It's not like I went out of my way to listen to this guy. I don't remember the last time I heard him on the SCORE. He is loving this though, he's going to jump on every chance he can to talk with every radio outlet and cry about it on national television later.

SouthSide_HitMen
06-21-2006, 11:58 AM
I can't believe you guys are actually listening to him. You won't read his written garbage but you'll listen to it. Ozzie probably shouldn't have madde the comment, but as i stated earlier the word means something different to him. The thing that pisses me off is now this moron (Mariotti) is getting more airtime than usual.

This has little to do with Ozzie at this point. This is just another chance for the windsock to flap in the air. I'm most disgusted at myself for listening for five minutes to that assclown (summerized above).

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 11:58 AM
No one, regardless of their sexual orientation, should be compared to that jackass.
Deuce

Warrick Harrow: "Yes, I know the man. I think he's a psychotic low-life."

Mal Reynolds: "And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic low-life community."

:roflmao:

RKMeibalane
06-21-2006, 12:01 PM
How old are you? No one used the term "gay" as a putdown when I was growing up. The common useage of it in that context has developed in the last 10-20 years and possibly more recently. I don't recall hearing it prior to my hearing loss in 1997. So, from my perspective it seems to be a recent development.

I first heard the term used circa '92 or '93, when I was ten years old.

harwar
06-21-2006, 12:01 PM
I guess i'm the only one on this board that backs Ozzie 100%.
If most of those here are ready to fry Ozzie over what he said then how do you think the rest of the country will go.They will be like sheep and follow in line and do what they are told.
What Ozzie said was wrong but if we can't back our manager up when he's being attacked on all sides then we will all probably get what we deserve,a team torn apart and in shambles after Ozzie is forced to change what drove him to lead the White Sox all the way last year.
My whole life i've lived by the rule that when things get really bad,you stick together and fight to the last man.
It seems to me that on this board its quite different.

itsnotrequired
06-21-2006, 12:03 PM
I guess i'm the only one on this board that backs Ozzie 100%.
If most of those here are ready to fry Ozzie over what he said then how do you think the rest of the country will go.They will be like sheep and follow in line and do what they are told.
What Ozzie said was wrong but if we can't back our manager up when he's being attacked on all sides then we will all probably get what we deserve,a team torn apart and in shambles after Ozzie is forced to change what drove him to lead the White Sox all the way last year.
My whole life i've lived by the rule that when things get really bad,you stick together and fight to the last man.
It seems to me that on this board its quite different.

:?:

It has nothing to do with how people on this board feel about it.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 12:03 PM
Everyone can see where this is going....

Recountings of every single incident during Ozzie's tenure, including the homosexual comment last year to a friend (this will prove that he didn't learn his lesson last time)....

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reporter skewering him again

Interviews with the 20 some columnists who witnessed the incident...the media becoming the news yet again

Video footage of poor Sean Tracey crying in the dugout and Ozzie yelling at him

Story getting picked up by all the national sports networks and websites

Very few people having the courage to defend OG publicly....hoping this will blow over...the White Sox are taking the lawyerly approach of saying they've already talked with him and discussed it, as if to expiate their responsibility for his actions

Interviews with Buck Showalter, Kelvim Escobar, Magglio Ordonez, Joe Torre, A-Rod...every OG target from the last 2 plus years.

KW needs to do something to defuse this now, although I think it is too late, unfortunately. Or even better, JR. Coming from Reifert or Boyer, it's not going to be enough to fight off the wolves.

SouthSide_HitMen
06-21-2006, 12:04 PM
I first heard the term used circa '92 or '93, when I was ten years old.

We were calling classmates gayrods or gay in the first grade in 1975 and I am sure we were not the kids who coined the phrase. Spaz, retard and dork were also popular "back in the day".

oeo
06-21-2006, 12:05 PM
I guess i'm the only one on this board that backs Ozzie 100%.
If most of those here are ready to fry Ozzie over what he said then how do you think the rest of the country will go.They will be like sheep and follow in line and do what they are told.
What Ozzie said was wrong but if we can't back our manager up when he's being attacked on all sides then we will all probably get what we deserve,a team torn apart and in shambles after Ozzie is forced to change what drove him to lead the White Sox all the way last year.
My whole life i've lived by the rule that when things get really bad,you stick together and fight to the last man.
It seems to me that on this board its quite different.
As long as the team wins, I do not see him going anywhere for a long time.

Sure, Ozzie says the wrong thing sometimes; okay, a lot of the time, but the Moron is just here to start trouble. He's always trying to start trouble. He says that the goal of the Sox is to drive him out of town, yet I feel like his goal is to drive Ozzie out of town. I feel no sympathy for him.

PennStater98r
06-21-2006, 12:06 PM
Some people need to get thicker skin. When Dusty Baker said that blacks are better at playing in the heat he wasn't suspended. He was called a dumbass. Or was that ok because Dusty is black?

I know what you're trying to say; however, the difference is that when Dusty Baker made his comments - he was/is black.

RKMeibalane
06-21-2006, 12:06 PM
We were calling classmates gayrods or gay in the first grade in 1975 and I am sure we were not the kids who coined the phrase. Spaz, retard and dork were also popular "back in the day".

Those terms were used at my elementary school, as well, esp. retard and dork.

Chip Z'nuff
06-21-2006, 12:06 PM
I guess i'm the only one on this board that backs Ozzie 100%.

not the only one.
I take it everyone who is blasting Ozzie is a perfect angel and never said anything mean or nasty about someone else?

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 12:09 PM
I know what you're trying to say; however, the difference is that when Dusty Baker made his comments - he was/is black.

But isn't the PC point that it's not suppossed to make any difference?

gobears1987
06-21-2006, 12:14 PM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/arvia/x21-ard1.htm

http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg212.html

This is going to be VERY interesting rest of the week for the ballclub.

Tracey has made his first comments since the demotion, although he has yet to address the issue completely.

Mariotti will be coming back from Dallas and probably heading out to the ballpark tonight.

These two writers were very blunt in their assessments and descriptions of what happened...and they're usually pretty fair and objective IMO.Greg Couch is not a fair and objective person. He is an ass clown who is almost as bad as Moronotti. All he did was bash the Sox last year.

spawn
06-21-2006, 12:15 PM
But isn't the PC point that it's not suppossed to make any difference?
The difference between this situation and Dusty is Dusty didn't use a term that would be deemed offensive. What Dusty said was not politically correct...that's it.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 12:16 PM
Harwar, you're making this too dramatic.

Baseball is a game. We're not talking war here. We all want to be proud of the organization we have supported all of our lives, do we not? There have been plenty of managers who won championships under trying circumstances (try managing for Steinbrenner) or with even MORE media scrutiny without shooting their mouth off every other week, seemingly.

Seriously, step back for a second. If your boss said something like this at a press conference, wouldn't you feel embarrassed? Would you tell your son to look at your boss as a role model?

I'm proud that we have the very Hispanic manager to win a WS, or the first African-American GM to build a WS winner. JR is a progressive thinking owner, and has changed with the times, despite his age.

OG is not Bobby Knight or Adolf Hitler, but, at some point, even the most blind loyalists realize that something needs to change.

How many times has Knight been in the media eye this season? Even at his age, he has mellowed quite a bit and managed to live by the rules set by the Texas Tech AD. OG can do the same thing. The question is whether he wants to or not. It's a conscious choice. And, by tuning down the act, does OG become a different and less effective manager? Most prognosticators thought he would lose his team's respect, burn out or disappear last season and it didn't happen.

While the players might dislike Mariotti, they probably don't agree with the way OG expressed himself. It's not a matter of don't say something if you don't have anything nice to say....that's naive....but I don't think anyone in the organization feels proud to have to defend themselves on this day.

gobears1987
06-21-2006, 12:16 PM
I really think Ozzie needs to be suspended for this. If the league doesn't step in the team should at least do something. He's crossed the line. As much as I like Ozzie as a manager I don't like him very much as a person. He needs to learn to keep his much shut and stop letting the press bait him. It's 2006 and there's absolutely no place for this kind of talk. I really don't care if it was meant a different way. Ozzie needs to be disciplined and taught to watch his mouth. His act is growing old fast.Way to go. Yeah that's what we should do. **** free speech. Let's all censor ourselves in the name of political correctness. :rolleyes:

I like Ozzie more after this. We need more people who refuse to be PC. Political correctness is destroying America.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 12:16 PM
But isn't the PC point that it's not suppossed to make any difference? The PC point is that it's political. It's sort of gotten lost in the shortening of the word to mean hypersensitive to some and perfectly sensitive to others. It's political here not in donkeys v. elephant fashion but political all the same.

First off this won't amount to a hill of beans when it's all said and done. The sox already apologized and MAY apologize again, same with ozzie. This is the moron mouthing off and will be a much bigger deal between cubs/sox fans than anywhere else in the nation. Half the people will write it off as "that's ozzie," half will write it off as "there's jay being jay again". With the left over 2% trying to raise a stink about it. :wink:

spawn
06-21-2006, 12:17 PM
It's not like I went out of my way to listen to this guy. I don't remember the last time I heard him on the SCORE. He is loving this though, he's going to jump on every chance he can to talk with every radio outlet and cry about it on national television later.
All the more reason that when you hear he will be on, turn off the station. That's what I would do. He's loving the attention right now. Don't give him any of yours.

Jjav829
06-21-2006, 12:21 PM
Mariotti is a douche bag. You know he's loving this because he can try to make himself look like the poor victim here. He tries to egg on people and get them to fire back, then responds back with his whole "Woe is me. I'm just the poor columnist doing my job and being attacked" act.

Maybe Ozzie was calling Moronotti a "fang," just like he says "fung" instead of "fun." :tongue:

gobears1987
06-21-2006, 12:22 PM
Yeah suspend Ozzie :rolleyes:

People are too goddamned concerned with being PC in this damned country. **** it who cares. I hate people *****footing. If people were more direct more would get done. Instead we have to overly worry about hurting someones feelings or insulting someone. Some people need to grow some thicker skin.

Remember he is manager of a baseball team. Not the president of the US or some political figure. A little perspective please.Thank you. This thread is really disgusting with Sox fans calling for Ozzie's suspension.

rocky biddle
06-21-2006, 12:24 PM
Way to go. Yeah that's what we should do. **** free speech. Let's all censor ourselves in the name of political correctness. :rolleyes:

I like Ozzie more after this. We need more people who refuse to be PC. Political correctness is destroying America.


I'm all for Ozzie being Ozzie. I can't imagine Ozzie being politically correct and I'd never want him to be. I do believe he can manage to be himself without insulting a group of people. Listen, I hate Mariotti as much as the next guy, but there was no reason for Ozzie to say what he said. It's only gonna make the White Sox organization and in turn us fans look bad.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 12:26 PM
Way to go. Yeah that's what we should do. **** free speech. Let's all censor ourselves in the name of political correctness. :rolleyes:

I like Ozzie more after this. We need more people who refuse to be PC. Political correctness is destroying America.


Does that include all slurs or just the ones you think aren't offensive?

I mean should people be able to use the "N" word? What about if Marriotti called Ozzie a Spic?

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 12:28 PM
The difference between this situation and Dusty is Dusty didn't use a term that would be deemed offensive. What Dusty said was not politically correct...that's it.
Dusty made what could be perceived as a derogatory remark about a group of people. Respectfully, I don't see the difference.

The PC point is that it's political. It's sort of gotten lost in the shortening of the word to mean hypersensitive to some and perfectly sensitive to others.
I meant it in the term of hypersensitive, which, inaccurate or not, is my perception of the term. Which goes to point out what my hero Bart Kosko says: "When you talk you simplify, and when you simplify you lie." :smile:

On another note, I'm done with this. Seems this thread is long past the point of being roadhoused. If anyone felt attacked by me by anything I said here, I apologize. I've never met any of you, and, therefore, would not intend to attack you personally, especially behind a faceless computer --- that's too easy. ("If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be armed, and you'll be facing me." :D:)

I take solace in the fact that, if nothing else, we are united in our love of the White Sox!

South Side
06-21-2006, 12:28 PM
Apparently, Mariotti was just on the Score. Did anyone hear what he said?

Mickster
06-21-2006, 12:28 PM
Harwar, you're making this too dramatic.

and

Everyone can see where this is going....

Recountings of every single incident during Ozzie's tenure, including the homosexual comment last year to a friend (this will prove that he didn't learn his lesson last time)....

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reporter skewering him again

Interviews with the 20 some columnists who witnessed the incident...the media becoming the news yet again

Video footage of poor Sean Tracey crying in the dugout and Ozzie yelling at him

Story getting picked up by all the national sports networks and websites

Very few people having the courage to defend OG publicly....hoping this will blow over...the White Sox are taking the lawyerly approach of saying they've already talked with him and discussed it, as if to expiate their responsibility for his actions

Interviews with Buck Showalter, Kelvim Escobar, Magglio Ordonez, Joe Torre, A-Rod...every OG target from the last 2 plus years.

KW needs to do something to defuse this now, although I think it is too late, unfortunately. Or even better, JR. Coming from Reifert or Boyer, it's not going to be enough to fight off the wolves.

make me :nuts:


Stop your handwringing. This will pass.

Jjav829
06-21-2006, 12:29 PM
I'm all for Ozzie being Ozzie. I can't imagine Ozzie being politically correct and I'd never want him to be. I do believe he can manage to be himself without insulting a group of people. Listen, I hate Mariotti as much as the next guy, but there was no reason for Ozzie to say what he said. It's only gonna make the White Sox organization and in turn us fans look bad.

How does it make us fans look bad? Do you base your views of other teams fans on the actions or words of their players, coaches, manager or front office? Are Devil Rays fans drunks or thugs because of the actions of B.J. Upton and Delmon Young? Are Marlins fans cheap because their ownership sold off nearly all of their high priced players?

viagracat
06-21-2006, 12:30 PM
Bingo! Best not to purchase / listen to it. Comparing any group of human beings to the windsock is offensive. The press is most outraged with the fact that the White Sox / Ozzie think so little of people like the windsock. Par for the course.

Edit - The Windsock is pathetic. He has spent 5 minutes ripping the entire organization, saying he is in fear of his physical safety, saying Hawk is to blame for death threats made toward him, saying his paper is as beholden to the White Sox as the Cubs are to the Tribune. Now he is saying the Score is in the back pocket of the White Sox and someone hear should not have the fear to criticize the White Sox.

*****.

Radio off - that is what I get for listening to / reading any Chicago based media output.

This is why I listen to jazz. :D:

daveeym
06-21-2006, 12:32 PM
Does that include all slurs or just the ones you think aren't offensive?

I mean should people be able to use the "N" word? What about if Marriotti called Ozzie a Spic? No if ozzie called the moron a Dago then it would be applicable. No question on cultural definitions and no question on intent. Then as far as I'm concerned it's an issue between those two and the Sox org and none of the perpetually offended. That's what anger and assininity on both sides do, leads to stupid things said. Until Ozzie's on my doorstep or responding to a post of mine calling me a potato eating cracker I could care less. I might muster up a bit of offense if he made a general statement about potato eating crackers, but i'd consider the source first.

CHIsoxNation
06-21-2006, 12:33 PM
Apparently, Mariotti was just on the Score. Did anyone hear what he said?

Yah, flip back a couple pages in the thread. We were discussing some of the stupid things he was saying while on air.

DaleJRFan
06-21-2006, 12:33 PM
Does that include all slurs or just the ones you think aren't offensive?

I mean should people be able to use the "N" word? What about if Marriotti called Ozzie a Spic?

Isn't calling someone a douchebag equally offensive? This is used A LOT on WSI, and if we are going to nitpik what we can and cannot say jokingly, then let's be fair with who or what we exploit in this thread.

People have been banned for calling Jon Garland "Judy" - but inferring that someone is equal to or lessor than a female hygene product is equally, if not more, offensive.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 12:36 PM
Dusty made what could be perceived as a derogatory remark about a group of people. Respectfully, I don't see the difference.


I meant it in the term of hypersensitive, which, inaccurate or not, is my perception of the term. Which goes to point out what my hero Bart Kosko says: "When you talk you simplify, and when you simplify you lie." :smile:

On another note, I'm done with this. Seems this thread is long past the point of being roadhoused. If anyone felt attacked by me by anything I said here, I apologize. I've never met any of you, and, therefore, would not intend to attack you personally, especially behind a faceless computer --- that's too easy. ("If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be armed, and you'll be facing me." :D:)

I take solace in the fact that, if nothing else, we are united in our love of the White Sox! Eh, I don't think anyone's taken it far enough to be roadhoused. I don't think anyone has taken personal offense yet either. It's definitely been heated but it is directly Sox related so while some of this may get other threads pre-emptively roadhoused I think this one has life until someone takes it over the top.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 12:39 PM
It's all about perception, and we finally have the perception of a winning organization. That's great.

But class goes along with that, OG and KW know it, JR knows it as well. No matter what side of the fence you are on, his comments were not classy. The classy thing to do would be to ignore it, instead of just making the intensity of the media focus like a microscope burning an ant on the crackling asphalt in mid-August.

The attacks on the umpires and Gamboa, the SouthSide reputation for being dangerous (coded racism), the Black Sox, the attendance issues, the love/hate relationship with JR, and now this stuff week after week.

It's great when we are winning, but it can turn just as quickly. With the Cubs, it never seems to hurt them from a profitability standpoint.

Let's say 8-10% of the fans who follow the Sox are gay and they stopped going to games, paying for parking or concessions.

Take $10 million out of the Sox payroll and you have five starters instead of six, or you have the same bench we had last season....or no Thome. They say that any type of media attention is positive, but I don't always agree.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 12:40 PM
Eh, I don't think anyone's taken it far enough to be roadhoused. I don't think anyone has taken personal offense yet either. It's definitely been heated but it is directly Sox related so while some of this may get other threads pre-emptively roadhoused I think this one has life until someone takes it over the top.

Isn't WTS almost the "Baseball Discussions" equivilent of the Roadhouse? :smile:

SouthSide_HitMen
06-21-2006, 12:44 PM
This is why I listen to jazz. :D:

:thumbsup:

I do as well.

I am a proud contributor to WDCB 90.9 FM College of DuPage.

I am pissed at myself for turning off the jazz for the 5 minutes or so I wasted listening to the Score.

PS - I see Bobby Knight and Adolf Hitler were mentioned in the same reference. Caulfield takes the lead. :rolleyes:

jdm2662
06-21-2006, 12:45 PM
Greg Couch is not a fair and objective person. He is an ass clown who is almost as bad as Moronotti. All he did was bash the Sox last year.

Yeah, and when he was called out on it by the players, he cried on how mean the players are. The Moron was quick to point this out. At least Levine apologized to the players when he used the term "scrubs" when Ozzie played his bench against Cleveland. If you are going to talk smack, be sure to take the heat when you are proven wrong. These mediots will never do it.

As for the Moron, you knew this was going to happen. He loves this stuff. The sad part is, people outside of the city might actually see him as the good guy. Ozzie should've just called him a coward, which he is.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 12:45 PM
It's all about perception, and we finally have the perception of a winning organization. That's great.

But class goes along with that, OG and KW know it, JR knows it as well. No matter what side of the fence you are on, his comments were not classy. The classy thing to do would be to ignore it, instead of just making the intensity of the media focus like a microscope burning an ant on the crackling asphalt in mid-August.

The attacks on the umpires and Gamboa, the SouthSide reputation for being dangerous (coded racism), the Black Sox, the attendance issues, the love/hate relationship with JR, and now this stuff week after week.

It's great when we are winning, but it can turn just as quickly. With the Cubs, it never seems to hurt them from a profitability standpoint.

Let's say 8-10% of the fans who follow the Sox are gay and they stopped going to games, paying for parking or concessions.

Take $10 million out of the Sox payroll and you have five starters instead of six, or you have the same bench we had last season....or no Thome. They say that any type of media attention is positive, but I don't always agree. Ok let's say your using 8-10% as what's considered the general population of gay people and applying it to sox fans. Well just like in any other subset maybe 1-2% of that number would be so overly sensitive and/or unable to understand ozzie angrily going after the moron with ozzie being a bigot that they'd cut back on games or cease to go to games. That equates to about 50 seats a game that others are lining up to buy those tickets as it stands now.

tebman
06-21-2006, 12:56 PM
This whole thing is just sad. Ozzie is an intelligent man and knows better than to use incendiary words in public statements. He does it anyway because he's hardheaded and iconoclastic, which are two of the qualities we admire him for, though in this case he was wrong.

And he really should know better than to take red-meat bait from a bomb-throwing hack like Mariotti. The toad has already been on the radio, promising to make this a bigger story. And he will, only because he's the loudest geek in the carnival sideshow.

The Sun-Times editors should know better than to put up with Mariotti's hackery. This is a guy who doesn't interview anybody or go into clubhouses to get information like a real reporter/writer would do. He's simply the belligerent loudmouth at the end of the bar spouting off angrily on any topic that enters his head. Incredibly, he gets paid to do it. Ozzie should have ignored the guy -- the "pissant," as JR referred to him.

This is a perfect application of the old homily: "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty and only the pig will enjoy it."

Iwritecode
06-21-2006, 12:57 PM
I'm always amazed at how offended people get by words. They're words!!!

Am I the only one that remembers the old "sticks and stones" rhyme?

rocky biddle
06-21-2006, 01:03 PM
How does it make us fans look bad? Do you base your views of other teams fans on the actions or words of their players, coaches, manager or front office? Are Devil Rays fans drunks or thugs because of the actions of B.J. Upton and Delmon Young? Are Marlins fans cheap because their ownership sold off nearly all of their high priced players?

I understand what you're saying and I guess what I said was misleading. I should've said this has the potential to make us fans look bad. For instance, they run Ozzie's quote in the paper next to a picture of a few people wearing those hilarious World's Largest Gay bar shirts at the Cell and claim that it's commonplace. We know that the local media report the facts as they see them, why would the national media be any different?

Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. To be honest, I'm sick of even thinking about it. The windsock's interview on the Score was enough to make me avoid the media altogether for the next few days.

daveeym
06-21-2006, 01:04 PM
I'm always amazed at how offended people get by words. They're words!!!

Am I the only one that remembers the old "sticks and stones" rhyme?I've been dying to mention that and I think half the country has never heard that. Until it's someone trying to affect my job, on my front doorstep, trying to harass my kids or HARM me I could care less what some big mouth has to say. Because the wrestling with a pig adage above is right on and that pig changes it's colors often enough that you find yourself wrestling with it when you thought you were wrestling against it.

SBSoxFan
06-21-2006, 01:08 PM
Am I the only one that remembers the old "sticks and stones" rhyme?

You mean the one about whips and chains? :redneck

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 01:09 PM
Isn't calling someone a douchebag equally offensive? This is used A LOT on WSI, and if we are going to nitpik what we can and cannot say jokingly, then let's be fair with who or what we exploit in this thread.

People have been banned for calling Jon Garland "Judy" - but inferring that someone is equal to or lessor than a female hygene product is equally, if not more, offensive.

The F word is highly offensive to homosexual males like the N word to blacks and the S word to hispanics. This isn't some generic term that has a humorous element to it. It's one of the most volatile words in the English language to people who are gay.

Yes, that matters.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 01:09 PM
I'm both amazed and saddened by what I am reading in this thread. My guess is that if I went up to most of you in a bar and called you a ***, a fight would break out. But then again it is just a word right? I won't advocate a suspension, but an apology needs to be said by him.

I'm also amazed at this, "the Moron had it coming" talk. A little perspective here, most of you are over the age of 21. If what a newspaper columnists says aggravates you to the point where it is perfectly alright to use a phrase to insult him that many of you would not like to be called, you might need to examine where your life is.

Thome25
06-21-2006, 01:11 PM
The clash between Ozzie and Moronotti was inevitable. We all should have seen this coming. JM is a moron who stirs up trouble every chance he gets.

Ozzie (though not intentionally) stirs up trouble with his mouth and the things he says.

They were and are like two steam locomotives on the same track headed directly for each other.

There are only a couple of solutions so this doesn't keep happening:

1.) Moronotti loses his job at the Sun-times and goes to write in Siberia.

2.) Ozzie and the White Sox have a press conference to publicly apologize and announce a fine and suspension for Ozzie.

3.) All of the above.

Personally I'd like to see Choice #3 happen.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 01:12 PM
I'm always amazed at how offended people get by words. They're words!!!

Am I the only one that remembers the old "sticks and stones" rhyme?

You do know that if you use certain words in public you won't necessarily have a legal case if you get your ass kicked for using them. (Not you per se, but in general).

Chip Z'nuff
06-21-2006, 01:14 PM
Ozzie is going to be in the gay pride parade and has plans on attending the gay games. He obviously was using the word in different context.

Mickster
06-21-2006, 01:15 PM
You do know that if you use certain words in public you won't necessarily have a legal case if you get your ass kicked for using them. (Not you per se, but in general).

Only if the words you say are thretening in nature - physically threatening such as "I am going to kick your ass"

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 01:17 PM
Only if the words you say are thretening in nature - physically threatening such as "I am going to kick your ass"

I am fairly certain the USSC has upheld that some non physically threatening words have become so charged as to be construed as assault and allowing for a physical reaction, or at least mitigating said physical reaction's punishment.

The F word when used in certain contexts is considered enough to turn an ordinary assault and battery into a hate crime legally. That says something about the emotional impact of throwing it around casually.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 01:23 PM
Ozzie is going to be in the gay pride parade and has plans on attending the gay games. He obviously was using the word in different context.
Yes, he was using it in the Venezuelan context, around American reporters who have a different context for that word. What way did you think the American reporters take it?
I am amazed that I have heard White Sox fans say that Ozzie shouldn't wrap himself in the Venezuelan fan, or refer back to it because he is an American now. But, he uses an phrase that is generally offensive in America, and the same people who complain before use Venezuela as an excuse for him.

Which is it?

bayzbol44
06-21-2006, 01:24 PM
Gosh, this country has become too damn sensitive. He used a word that is used loosely in different ways. We all know what he was trying to saying. He was not calling him gay. When you are honest, sometimes you say stupid things. I would rather have Ozzie being honest and saying stupid things than being a damn PC machine.

Iwritecode
06-21-2006, 01:26 PM
You do know that if you use certain words in public you won't necessarily have a legal case if you get your ass kicked for using them. (Not you per se, but in general).

It's sad that people feel the need to resort to physical violence because somebody called them a bad name.

Maybe it's just my laid back nature or maybe it's because I'm not a minority but I just don't get offended if people call me something. I just blow it off/ignore them. I've been called a "long-haired hippie freak" by some old guy who thought it was horrible that my hair reaches the middle of my back. I just laughed.

Chip Z'nuff
06-21-2006, 01:27 PM
Yes, he was using it in the Venezuelan context, around American reporters who have a different context for that word. What way did you think the American reporters take it?
I am amazed that I have heard White Sox fans say that Ozzie shouldn't wrap himself in the Venezuelan fan, or refer back to it because he is an American now. But, he uses an phrase that is generally offensive in America, and the same people who complain before use Venezuela as an excuse for him.

Which is it? I never said that about ozzie? If i was managing a baseball team in france you goddamned right i wrap myself up in an american flag if i win the championship. Hes proud to be from venezuela.

rightsox
06-21-2006, 01:29 PM
I'm really dissappointed. Not heartbroken because I don't put my sports figures on pedestals, but it's still dissappointing. There is no shortage of appropriate insults for that particular columnist; there's no reason to use something like that. Ozzie's been in this country too long to use that as an excuse.

I think the whole thing will blow over if Ozzie makes a real apology and donates some large chunk of money to ACT UP (or some similar charity). I think he'll do the right thing. He's not a bad guy, he just gets worked up by the media and says some very stupid things. Most of the time they're hilarious, but not always.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 01:30 PM
I never said that about ozzie? If i was managing a baseball team in france you goddamed right i wrap myself up in american flag if i win the championship. Hes proud to be from venezzuela.
I did not say you said that, nor do I think it is bad that he is proud of his Venezuelan heritage. I am simply saying that some of the same people who do get mad at OG for the Venezuelan flag issue are probably some of the same ones who are using his Venezuelan background to defend him in this.

Chip Z'nuff
06-21-2006, 01:30 PM
I did not say you said that, nor do I think it is bad that he is proud of his Venezuelan heritage. I am simply saying that some of the same people who do get mad at OG for the Venezuelan flag issue are probably some of the same ones who are using his Venezuelan background to defend him in this.
you know what they say about assuming don't you?

Mickster
06-21-2006, 01:31 PM
I am fairly certain the USSC has upheld that some non physically threatening words have become so charged as to be construed as assault and allowing for a physical reaction, or at least mitigating said physical reaction's punishment.

The F word when used in certain contexts is considered enough to turn an ordinary assault and battery into a hate crime legally. That says something about the emotional impact of throwing it around casually.

I have certainly never heard of that and can not even remotely see how this could even possibly be written.

As far as the F word escalating an ordinary assault into a hate crime, I think we're taking apples and oranges. The assault is a crime, in and of itself. The F word, coupled with the assault, can escalate the charges.

Use of the F word, alone, is certainly is not a crime.

Lip Man 1
06-21-2006, 01:31 PM
My only comment I guess, is that I respect the way folks are commenting here and I certainly defend the media's right to write as they see fit.

My personal opinion frankly is that what Ozzie says doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Sorry.....I come from a different generation and a different time. I think this country, in particular, is far, far to politically correct. I think people have lost their backbone and in many cases their guts.

And just for the record, I grew up on the South Side, 2615 W. 47th Street and 4340 S. Honore...I heard every 'dumb Polack' joke there was (I'm Polish...) and it didn't bother me.

I knew when it was delivered in fun and I knew when it was delivered with malice.

When it was delivered with malice I personally took the steps I needed to correct things.

I know...I'm not in step with the times...but again that doesn't bother me. I'm my own man....as is Ozzie.

Take care and have a good one!

Lip

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 01:31 PM
It's sad that people feel the need to resort to physical violence because somebody called them a bad name.

Maybe it's just my laid back nature or maybe it's because I'm not a minority but I just don't get offended if people call me something. I just blow it off/ignore them. I've been called a "long-haired hippie freak" by some old guy who thought it was horrible that my hair reaches the middle of my back. I just laughed.

That's great, and I'm happy for you that you have that kind of tolerance. I too don't get worked up over stuff like that and I've been called a honkey right to my face. I just laughed.

However, historically speaking some of these words are incredibly offensive and carry conotations back for generations or even centurys. It's easy as a member of the dominant social and racial class in the country to say, "This stuff doesn't bother me". The other side of that viewpoint isn't as easy to accept.

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 01:32 PM
I think he'll do the right thing. He's not a bad guy, he just gets worked up by the media and says some very stupid things. Most of the time they're hilarious, but not always.
I agree..
Pretty soon the "Ozzie being Ozzie" thing will get old. My guess is that will happen if the team every goes through a tough losing streak. You would have thought that it was the Cardinals scored 20 runs last night, and this would be a pleasant distraction.

Risk
06-21-2006, 01:32 PM
My take on the whole "Ozzie beating up on poor Jay" issue:

1) What Ozzie said was wrong. He could have easily gotten his point accross about the Moron being an ignorant, useless hack "journalist" who knowns little about life and even less about sports without using a term like ***.

2) He apologized, so we should all move on, and let the ignorant media hacks have their non-story. People with two working brain cells with a synaps firing in between them will realize that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

3) Ozzie is a hell of a manager, and should not change his managing style. Nor should he be suspended.

4) Everyone, and I mean everyone, has had moments where they let their emotions get to them and say the wrong thing.

5) To those who are saying that the country is "too P.C." and that everyone needs to grow thicker skin, I view this whole thing from a different perspective. This has more to do with being professional. Ozzie is a major league manager, and he should act as such. Say what you will about someone you don't like, but do so in a more professional and if possible, private manner.

6) **** Jay Mariotti (granted, I'm violating my own rule of acting professional, but as an attorney, I've learned that there are exceptions to every rule).

Risk

SoxFanPrope
06-21-2006, 01:33 PM
you know what they say about assuming don't you?
I do, and I feel safe with my assumption.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 01:35 PM
My take on the whole "Ozzie beating up on poor Jay" issue:

1) What Ozzie said was wrong. He could have easily gotten his point accross about the Moron being an ignorant, useless hack "journalist" who knowns little about life and even less about sports without using a term like ***.

2) He apologized, so we should all move on, and let the ignorant media hacks have their non-story. People with two working brain cells with a synaps firing in between them will realize that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

3) Ozzie is a hell of a manager, and should not change his managing style. Nor should he be suspended.

4) Everyone, and I mean everyone, has had moments where they let their emotions get to them and say the wrong thing.

5) To those who are saying that the country is "too P.C." and that everyone needs to grow thicker skin, I view this whole thing from a different perspective. This has more to do with being professional. Ozzie is a major league manager, and he should act as such. Say what you will about someone you don't like, but do so in a more professional and if possible, private manner.

6) **** Jay Mariotti (granted, I'm violating my own rule of acting professional, but as an attorney, I've learned that there are exceptions to every rule).

Risk

I agree with everything said here, especially number 6. :tongue:

My only problem is with people defending the right to say anything. It's obviously not the way things should be done, IMO. I'll bow out of this thread now unless it turns ugly. I've said my peace.

Cuck the Fubs
06-21-2006, 01:35 PM
Lip,

My hat is off to you man............

I feel 100% the same way you do.

We worry far, far too much about "hurting" feelings and such.....

VA_GoGoSox
06-21-2006, 01:46 PM
Notice how nobody today is talking about AJ being a troublemaker, BA's struggles at the plate, Cliff's difficulties with location etc...

Behold the genius that is Ozzie Guillen.

I'm not sure if that last sentence should be in teal or not.

slavko
06-21-2006, 01:47 PM
Thanks Lip. You're right on target. Now lets find Ozzie another word to use for insults of heterosexual columnists who happen to be Giant A-Holes. There's a nice thread in Parking Lot about spiders. How about Brown Recluse? (If that Brown Recluse tells pitchers to throw at my players they can squash him like a bug.)

There probably isn't a media cabal of spider lovers who might launch a TV/radio blitz to get Ozzie suspended for being biologically incorrect.

Mod Edit: Three days vacation for violating the language filters.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 01:49 PM
That's great, and I'm happy for you that you have that kind of tolerance. I too don't get worked up over stuff like that and I've been called a honkey right to my face. I just laughed.

However, historically speaking some of these words are incredibly offensive and carry conotations back for generations or even centurys. It's easy as a member of the dominant social and racial class in the country to say, "This stuff doesn't bother me". The other side of that viewpoint isn't as easy to accept.

Couldn't agree more. As a white guy with a Dutch surname (don't think there's ever been any Dutch jokes) simply by accident of birth, I've never had to deal with disrespect, segregation or bigotry over those attributes I can't do anything about. I imagine I would get enraged if I were a minority and called a derogatory name intended to be an insult. You can't change your race, gender or ethnicity, and you should never be in a position where you would want to.

Civility and tolerance isn't that hard to do. If more people tried to do those things, the newspapers would be a lot thinner.

EDIT: Well, I guess you can change your gender, but that would be another thread certain to end up in the Roadhouse--don't know how to insert a smiley in an edit :-)

Jaffar
06-21-2006, 01:52 PM
Decided to take it down.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:00 PM
Wow. I can't believe some of the responses here. All of a sudden, because most of you aren't gay, we're too sensitive. Well you know what. **** you. **** you all. Hell, someone got offended last week cause I made a crack at Irishmen. Funny thing is...that same poster thinks we are being too sensitive now.

You know what, I'm gay. Oh wait...I'm a dyke. Maybe you ****s will understand that better if I do this. Let me see if any of this will offend anyone here. Let's say, instead of ***, Ozzie said: ******, spic, wop, kike, beaner, porch monkey, towel head, mick, wetback, honkey, cracker, redneck, white trash, potato picker, chink, bible beater, and the list goes on and on...

Did I offend anyone yet? Maybe you should grow some thicker skin.

Yes, Ozzie is a character. Ozzie Guillen was my hero growing up. However, I guess this dyke and my *** brother aren't good enough for him. To say that I am very disappointed in him is an understatement.

Maybe that ****ing wetback should think next time he speaks.

Fake Chet Lemon
06-21-2006, 02:02 PM
No Ozzie, no.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:05 PM
My only comment I guess, is that I respect the way folks are commenting here and I certainly defend the media's right to write as they see fit.

My personal opinion frankly is that what Ozzie says doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Sorry.....I come from a different generation and a different time. I think this country, in particular, is far, far to politically correct. I think people have lost their backbone and in many cases their guts.

And just for the record, I grew up on the South Side, 2615 W. 47th Street and 4340 S. Honore...I heard every 'dumb Polack' joke there was (I'm Polish...) and it didn't bother me.

I knew when it was delivered in fun and I knew when it was delivered with malice.

When it was delivered with malice I personally took the steps I needed to correct things.

I know...I'm not in step with the times...but again that doesn't bother me. I'm my own man....as is Ozzie.

Take care and have a good one!

Lip
Gee, I wonder why it doesn't bother you? You know what, I know when my brother calls me a dyke that it is delivered in fun. I also know that someone on the street who doesn't know me calls me a dyke is not delivering it in fun. But hey, gays must have it coming. :rolleyes:

You know, maybe I wouldn't be so god damn sensitive if I knew that I was actually accepted in this society.

DaleJRFan
06-21-2006, 02:11 PM
I think this country, in particular, is far, far to politically correct. I think people have lost their backbone and in many cases their guts.

DING DING!! We have a winner!

Flight #24
06-21-2006, 02:13 PM
IMO it's pretty ludicrous for a member of the dominant class, one that's never really had any significant discrimination issues to say minorities, especially those who are regularly slurred and defamed should "have thicker skin".

Polish, Irish, Danish, whatever - it's a completely different level of issues compared to Black, Hispanic, Homosexual. Non-comparable. Not at all. When you can't do basic things like walk down the street or hold hands with your partner without having some concern, you're damn right people can get sensitive. Discrimination isn't alwasy of the KKK variety, it's more commonly a wall built with a thousand grains of sand, each of which is individually meaningless.

I don't personally believe Ozzie meant any harm, it was more a reflection of how words get used in society and embedded despite the original meaning. In this case, he probably WAS questioning Moronotti's courage, but that doesn't make it right. He's apologized, and I'd think a fine or maybe even a 1-game suspension is warranted. But the real test will be if he can keep from doing it again.

DaleJRFan
06-21-2006, 02:14 PM
As much as I agree with Lip and some of the other posters in this thread, this issue isn't so much about being overly sensitive. Granted, everyone has to walk on eggshells as to not 'offend' anyone, but the issue is where do you draw the line... Like I said, I completely agree with Lip, but in this case, Ozzie went overboard.

His simple answer should have been (to quote Risk):

**** Jay Mariotti.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 02:18 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491
"Guillen calls columnist Mariotti homosexual slur (front page)"

No story up on cbssportsline.com yet, cnnsi.com or yahoo sports

Mercy!
06-21-2006, 02:19 PM
The Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg212.html) and the Daily Herald (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=201172) have columns about Guillen going after a certain Sun-Times columnist (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/moron.jpg).

Guillen will have to endure the backlash on his latest remarks, and rightfully so. I'm just curious if either the ST or DH writers have taken offense when Sox fans have been slurred as "white trash?" If I type "***" in a reply to you, the offensive language filter here takes over (I hope:?:). If I type "white trash," it doesn't. This is a pretty good indicator of the heat which certain slurs generate.

I notice that many of the replies in this thread (especially those most sympathetic to Ozzie) contain one or more examples of something that someone ELSE said, (But mom, Johnny's a bad boy, too!), as if this offsets responsibility for one's own words. Sorry, this needs to be judged on its own merits.

Ozzie has been living in the US for decades, is a US citizen, and is one of the very public faces of a multi-million dollar organization which is all about attracting fans. He knows exactly what he's saying. And the White Sox know they've got a problem. And Ozzie's The Moron if he thinks that he's bigger than the organization. I hope he recognizes that everyone has a public shelf life before he blows it. I love Ozzie, but I love the Sox more.

iamkoza
06-21-2006, 02:19 PM
funniest part of these espn.com blab was this line:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491

""Mariotti was covering the NBA Finals Tuesday night and was not present to hear what Guillen said""


should read mariotti avoids sox games 99% of the time and tuesday night wa sno different

SoxFan78
06-21-2006, 02:20 PM
Bottom line, Ozzie used the wrong words to go after that windsock. He used a word that offends a whole group of people.

No matter how you try to defend it, its wrong.

Should he be suspended? Yes.

Should of he been suspended if he used a non-derogotory word? No.

This has nothing to do with the world being to "PC". Everybody knows the F word is very derogotory. Dont give me that ****.

Im a huge Ozzie backer, but what he did yesterday showed a lapse in judgement.

spiffie
06-21-2006, 02:20 PM
Wow. I can't believe some of the responses here. All of a sudden, because most of you aren't gay, we're too sensitive. Well you know what. **** you. **** you all. Hell, someone got offended last week cause I made a crack at Irishmen. Funny thing is...that same poster thinks we are being too sensitive now.

You know what, I'm gay. Oh wait...I'm a dyke. Maybe you ****s will understand that better if I do this. Let me see if any of this will offend anyone here. Let's say, instead of ***, Ozzie said: ******, spic, wop, kike, beaner, porch monkey, towel head, mick, wetback, honkey, cracker, redneck, white trash, potato picker, chink, bible beater, and the list goes on and on...

Did I offend anyone yet? Maybe you should grow some thicker skin.

Yes, Ozzie is a character. Ozzie Guillen was my hero growing up. However, I guess this dyke and my *** brother aren't good enough for him. To say that I am very disappointed in him is an understatement.

Maybe that ****ing wetback should think next time he speaks.

:thumbsup: Sorry to make such a useless post, but there's nothing else to add to this for me. Perhaps an Amen or two.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:21 PM
Like I said, I completely agree with Lip, but in this case, Ozzie went overboard.

His simple answer should have been (to quote Risk):

**** Jay Mariotti.

Of course you agree with Lip. I'm sure most white, straight males do. I mean, why is everyone so damn sensitive.

But yes, if Ozzie would have said "**** Mariotti" or "He's an *******" the only only who would be offended is Mariotti...and when making an insult shouldn't you just insult the person instead of an entire group of people.

Of course, Ozzie was questioning Jay's courage. :rolleyes: Because you know what, **** don't have courage. I got news for you heterosexuals. It takes a lot of ****ing courage for a man to stand up and say that he is gay. Think about it before you use a homosexual slur to question someones courage again. Maybe instead of calling someone a ***, you should call them a coward. That would be more accurate, wouldn't it?

peeonwrigley
06-21-2006, 02:21 PM
This whole situation sucks. Mariotti gets what he wants by finally driving Ozzie to say something about him personally that will bring a lot of coverage to the situation. Ignoring for a second the actual words used, this was pretty much Mariotti's intention all along. Now he himself is actually part of the story, which will just further increase his ever-increasing (don't ask me why) profile.

Now moving on to Ozzie. I've heard eminem use the exact same defense for using said word. Except he referenced his neighborhood/upbringing instead of his country. I can see what they're saying, growing up where I did the word was used in the same way. I'm sure he was not trying to explicitly attack homosexuals, but that is not really the point (not to mention the implicit value of the word). And he's deservingly going to catch a lot of **** for it.

To simplify, there are just words you don't say this day and age, especially with taperecorders etc all around. I agree with Couch on this one, Ozzie is smart enough to know better.

FloridaTigers
06-21-2006, 02:21 PM
I thought it was Ozzie's job to ignore people like Jay and just focus on managing?

Jay's job is to pick at sports figures.

Ozzie's job is to also ignore them.

Now who's not doing their job?

oeo
06-21-2006, 02:25 PM
IMO it's pretty ludicrous for a member of the dominant class, one that's never really had any significant discrimination issues to say minorities, especially those who are regularly slurred and defamed should "have thicker skin".

Polish, Irish, Danish, whatever - it's a completely different level of issues compared to Black, Hispanic, Homosexual. Non-comparable. Not at all. When you can't do basic things like walk down the street or hold hands with your partner without having some concern, you're damn right people can get sensitive. Discrimination isn't alwasy of the KKK variety, it's more commonly a wall built with a thousand grains of sand, each of which is individually meaningless.

I don't personally believe Ozzie meant any harm, it was more a reflection of how words get used in society and embedded despite the original meaning. In this case, he probably WAS questioning Moronotti's courage, but that doesn't make it right. He's apologized, and I'd think a fine or maybe even a 1-game suspension is warranted. But the real test will be if he can keep from doing it again.
I don't think Ozzie meant any harm to anyone. The term is known to be a homosexual slur sometimes, but not all the time anymore. I don't think Ozzie was referring to him as a homosexual, at all. The word has become, as stupid as it sounds, a common "insult", like idiot or jerk. It can be offensive, but I don't think Ozzie meant it in that way.

That's just how I feel, and I don't think it should become an issue of whether he is homophobic or whatnot.

Chip Z'nuff
06-21-2006, 02:26 PM
it s a good thing lee elia never said anything derogatory about homosexuals... err wait, nevermind.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 02:27 PM
:thumbsup: Sorry to make such a useless post, but there's nothing else to add to this for me. Perhaps an Amen or two.

Amen to that. PH13 made a great, gutsy post.

oeo
06-21-2006, 02:27 PM
I thought it was Ozzie's job to ignore people like Jay and just focus on managing?

Jay's job is to pick at sports figures.

Ozzie's job is to also ignore them.

Now who's not doing their job?
I know someone who is doing their job. You, being a :troll

34 Inch Stick
06-21-2006, 02:27 PM
Part of the problem is the word that he used. The other part is that he was looking for an insult. If he considers that word an insult then that is a statement about how he feels about the group.

Ozzie may take some abuse for his lack of dignified language. However, his direct boss does not set a much better example. I don't know if it is due to their relative youth and success but both Ozzie and KW seem to have the self control of a grade school child.

Mercy!
06-21-2006, 02:28 PM
....Not that Ozzie would accept my advice, but I suggest that he adopt a WSI type approach to the Sun-Times columnist in question, just ignore the nitwit (sorry if that term offends). I so agree with this. Media hell for someone like The Moron is to have no one listen to him or read his dreck.

By the way, they could start this new policy in their broadcast booth. Don't you know Jay just loves it everytime Hawk gives his name a shout-out?

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:29 PM
I don't think Ozzie meant any harm to anyone. The term is known to be a homosexual slur sometimes, but not all the time anymore. I don't think Ozzie was referring to him as a homosexual, at all. The word has become, as stupid as it sounds, a common "insult", like idiot or jerk. It can be offensive, but I don't think Ozzie meant it in that way.

That's just how I feel, and I don't think it should become an issue of whether he is homophobic or whatnot.

This is when we need to rethink what we are using as "common insults". You want to call someone a jerk, idiot, *******, ****er...fine. *** is not fine. When I was growing up, there were quite a few slurs that were "common insults" when discussing people of color. These insults are not generally accepted in society anymore because society realized that it was wrong. Maybe someday before I die, people will realize that slurs against homosexuals are not "ok" or "common" and we should get some thicker skin about it.

Flight #24
06-21-2006, 02:29 PM
I don't think Ozzie meant any harm to anyone. The term is known to be a homosexual slur sometimes, but not all the time anymore. I don't think Ozzie was referring to him as a homosexual, at all. The word has become, as stupid as it sounds, a common "insult", like idiot or jerk. It can be offensive, but I don't think Ozzie meant it in that way.

That's just how I feel, and I don't think it should become an issue of whether he is homophobic or whatnot.

That's the point. A term used to describe homosexuals becomes a common term for idiot, jerk, etc. That's pretty insulting if you're gay.

The analogy would be the use of the word "jew" as a verb to denote cheapness. I could make the same argument you just did that it's a not uncommon was to describe cheapness, but actually only makes it MORE hurtful, not less.

EDIT: PH13 said it better.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:30 PM
I know someone who is doing their job. You, being a :troll

Actually, I think FloridaTigers was 100% correct with his post. Why are you singling him out? A lot of people in this thread have said much worse things than that.

Mickster
06-21-2006, 02:31 PM
I know someone who is doing their job. You, being a :troll

Forgive my ignorance, but why are you calling him a troll? :?:

oeo
06-21-2006, 02:33 PM
This is when we need to rethink what we are using as "common insults". You want to call someone a jerk, idiot, *******, ****er...fine. *** is not fine. When I was growing up, there were quite a few slurs that were "common insults" when discussing people of color. These insults are not generally accepted in society anymore because society realized that it was wrong. Maybe someday before I die, people will realize that slurs against homosexuals are not "ok" or "common" and we should get some thicker skin about it.

Understood, and like you said, these terms change and do not become appropriate. Why can't a term make a U-turn and go the opposite way? Their meanings change; idiot and jerk may not be appropriate 30 years from now. I'm just saying, I do not think Ozzie was trying to offend anyone, except the Moron.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:33 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but why are you calling him a troll? :?:

Maybe because he is a Tiger fan? If so, that's pretty weak. I've checked hi posts and he is definitely not a troll. Actually in this situation, a more reasonable opinion may be from someone from the outside looking in...

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 02:34 PM
This is why I listen to jazz. :D:

And I'm glad my three days of it in Elkhart are coming up day after tomorrow. I'll be glad to get away from this bull****.

spawn
06-21-2006, 02:37 PM
I know someone who is doing their job. You, being a :troll

Actually, FloridaTigers makes a great point. I don't think there is anything trollish about his post. That's the thing about this situation...I love that Ozzie doesn't take crap from anyone, but he should know that Mariotti is great at these little digs that become full blown controversies, exactly the point that FT is making.

PH13...I was actually wondering what your take on this situation is. When I made my initial post regarding Ozzie's usage of the word, I meant that it is not used to describe homosexuals. But the more I think about it, he's been here long enough to realize that word is very offensive, and he needs to issue an apology...not to jay mariotti, but to the gay community. To those that say get a thick skin, and they are only words, as PH13 said. it's easy for straight white males to say that. I've been called the 'N' word to my face, and I sure as hell didn't brush it off. It hurt. And PH13 using it here, along with the other negative descriptions of races should be a wakeup call that words do indeed hurt. Screw that sticks and stones crap.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:37 PM
Understood, and like you said, these terms change and do not become appropriate. Why can't a term make a U-turn and go the opposite way? Their meanings change; idiot and jerk may not be appropriate 30 years from now. I'm just saying, I do not think Ozzie was trying to offend anyone, except the Moron.

I don't think you really do understand yet. I know that Ozzie wasn't gay bashing, but the fact that he thinks it is acceptable to call someone a *** is unacceptable and very disappointing.

TheDarkGundam
06-21-2006, 02:37 PM
What Ozzie said was not right. It was not good, it should never have been said. Of course.
BUT, I'm going to say I believe Ozzie in that he meant it a different way. In one of the articles posted in the first post, it says Ozzie had to ask what a "creep" was. I believe him when he says he is using the word as it is used in Venezuela. However, I do think he should apologize, and a fine or suspension is appropriate.

I must say, Around The Horn is going to very interesting today, to hear what the Moron himself has to say.

Palehose13
06-21-2006, 02:39 PM
Actually, FloridaTigers makes a great point. I don't think there is anything trollish about his post. That's the thing about this situation...I love that Ozzie doesn't take crap from anyone, but he should know that Mariotti is great at these little digs that become full blown controversies, exactly the point that FT is making.

PH13...I was actually wondering what your take on this situation is. When I made my initial post regarding zzie's usage of the word, I meant that it is not used to describe homosexuals. But the more i think about it, he's been here long enough to realize that word is very offensive, and he needs to issue an apology...not to jay mariotti, but to the gay community. To those that say get a thick skin, and they are only words, as PH13 said. it's easy for straight white males to say that. I've been called the 'N' word to my face, and I sure as hell didn't brush it off. It hurt. And PH13 using it here, along with the other negative descriptions of races should be a wakeup call that words do indeed hurt. Screw that sticks and stones crap.

Thanks spawn. Your post really means a lot to me. I know that you understand. Am I perfect? Absolutely not, but I just stick to calling people ****ers now when I am mad at them. I'm an equal opportunity insulter. :wink:

viagracat
06-21-2006, 02:40 PM
I must say, Around The Horn is going to very interesting today, to hear what the Moron himself has to say.

Why would you want to do that? :o: :?: :(:

oeo
06-21-2006, 02:40 PM
Actually, I think FloridaTigers was 100% correct with his post. Why are you singling him out? A lot of people in this thread have said much worse things than that.
Well, I haven't taken the time to read through the whole thing.

It depends on how you feel about the situation. In my opinion, I don't think Ozzie did much of anything wrong. And I read other teams' message boards and they have the same feeling about Ozzie (that he's an idiot and should just shut his mouth; everything he does is wrong). Maybe I took it the wrong way, but I felt like he was insulting Ozzie, and if a Sox fan wants to do it, so be it. When a fan of another team does it, it's different. Just like calling a Sox fan a dark cloud if he rips the team, but if someone else does it, they're out of here. I don't see a difference there...

StockdaleForVeep
06-21-2006, 02:40 PM
Ozzie is my idol. I wish i had the balls to be as free minded as he is.

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 02:41 PM
This whole thing is just sad. Ozzie is an intelligent man and knows better than to use incendiary words in public statements. He does it anyway because he's hardheaded and iconoclastic, which are two of the qualities we admire him for, though in this case he was wrong.

And he really should know better than to take red-meat bait from a bomb-throwing hack like Mariotti. The toad has already been on the radio, promising to make this a bigger story. And he will, only because he's the loudest geek in the carnival sideshow.

The Sun-Times editors should know better than to put up with Mariotti's hackery. This is a guy who doesn't interview anybody or go into clubhouses to get information like a real reporter/writer would do. He's simply the belligerent loudmouth at the end of the bar spouting off angrily on any topic that enters his head. Incredibly, he gets paid to do it. Ozzie should have ignored the guy -- the "pissant," as JR referred to him.

This is a perfect application of the old homily: "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty and only the pig will enjoy it."

I think part of the problem is that the Sox organization, at least their TV PBP guy, has taken to calling out Moronotti. Since Hawk has been allowed to do so, I would imagine others in the organization either feel they have, or actually do have, the go-ahead to do so. Remember, this all started with the Moronotti column about Tracey that resulted in Hawk calling Moronotti a heinie bird (again).

What the Sox really need to do is ignore the SOB. Freeze him out. No free pub. Anyone who even mentions his name gets fined.

ilsox7
06-21-2006, 02:42 PM
Well this wasn't what I expected to see when I logged into WSI. This was the first I heard about the incident. So I read through this thread and also read some of the linked articles so I could grasp the situation. The only thing that baffles me is how anyone could actually defend Ozzie in all of this.

34 Inch Stick
06-21-2006, 02:42 PM
When is the Sox organization going to realize that they are actually helping Mariotti by addressing him. Hawk calls him a hineybird and it most likely encourages viewers to take a look at JM column the next day. Ozzie calls him a derogatory word and now JM has more national recognition than his column or little show could ever garner him.

Deuce
06-21-2006, 02:43 PM
OK, everybody breath in.

Hold it.

Now, breath out and repeat after me.

"Not calling someone a *** is not the same as being PC."

For some inane reason, this has turned into a debate on being PC. It is not. Ozzie can say that Moronotti is a piece of ****, or an *******, or several of many different expletives that are used to describe someone whom he doesn't like or doesn't respect. Instead, he called him a ***.

But who does he insult by doing so? He isn't just insulting Moronotti, he's insulting an entire community who have nothing to do with that idiot. Therein lays the problem. Being PC has to do with using sterilized language to describe everyday things (ex. handicapped or disabled v. challenged). It has nothing to do with which expletive he should use, since all expletives are not PC. No one is saying he can't criticize Moronotti. He can criticize Moronotti all he likes, but why do it at the expense of the gay community?

Keep in mind that though you have the right to say what you think, that does not mean there aren't any repercussions for voicing those opinions. Ozzie is an employee of the White Sox, which is a member of Major League Baseball. What Ozzie said was said during an interview with the national media while he was in his uniform and serving as a representative of the White Sox. If his employer does not appreciate his comments, they are well within their rights to make it known buy fining or suspending Ozzie. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to work with the White Sox.

This isn't sandlot baseball here. This is the majors. Time to act like grownups.

Deuce

Jerko
06-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Well, homosexuality is not a race, and I think that's why some people don't think the word *** is as offensive as the n word, or wop, or some of the other ones PH13 used in one of her previous posts. I'm not saying that's right, but it might have something to do with it. If JM called Ozzie a derogatory Latino name, Ozzie would be pissed, but he doesn't see what's wrong with what he said. Just say **** you next time, Oz.

TheDarkGundam
06-21-2006, 02:45 PM
Why would you want to do that? :o: :?: :(:
Just curious. I don't care what he thinks about it, since I know he's not gonna laugh it off or something.
Actually...Now that I think about it, I don't give a **** what he says about it. I'll skip Around The Horn today (just like I do everday).

DaleJRFan
06-21-2006, 02:45 PM
What the Sox really need to do is ignore the SOB. Freeze him out. No free pub. Anyone who even mentions his name gets fined.

oooh... oooh.... GREAT idea. Can we do that at WSI? Anyone who mentions Mariotti has to donate $10.00 to the CotC beer fund? :D:

:gulp: :gulp:

TheDarkGundam
06-21-2006, 02:46 PM
What the Sox really need to do is ignore the SOB. Freeze him out. No free pub. Anyone who even mentions his name gets fined.
That sounds like a solid plan.

Justagirl
06-21-2006, 02:48 PM
Im sure every one of you have gotten so upset with someone you said something you probably shouldnt have on many occasions, only not under the public eye. He shouldnt have said what he said, but he's not the president or the voice or morailty- hes a baseball manager that takes his game personally and spews words out of anger that IMO shouldnt be taken so literally.

DaleJRFan
06-21-2006, 02:48 PM
Of course, Ozzie was questioning Jay's courage. :rolleyes: Because you know what, **** don't have courage.

C'mon palehose... do you actually think Ozzie has the vocabulary and verbal communication skills necessary to state exactly what Mariotti true is? I'm sure he thought that, but between his brainwaves and his mouth moving, somehow the word "***" came out. :D:

thepaulbowski
06-21-2006, 02:48 PM
I don't think you really do understand yet. I know that Ozzie wasn't gay bashing, but the fact that he thinks it is acceptable to call someone a *** is unacceptable and very disappointing.

He apologized after he was questioned about the term and told what it meant, that isn't enough? And he offered what it meant in Venezuela. That is just ignored?

Also for all the judging that folks are doing of him. Does anybody here know what it is like to be interviewed in your non-native language? We all know when he gets worked up he speaks a hybrid of English & Spanish. This is just discounted when talking about this?

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 02:49 PM
Lip,

My hat is off to you man............

I feel 100% the same way you do.

We worry far, far too much about "hurting" feelings and such.....

Yes, I too long for the days when it was perfectly acceptable to be an insensitive jerk.

Flight #24
06-21-2006, 02:51 PM
But who does he insult by doing so? He isn't just insulting Moronotti, he's insulting an entire community who have nothing to do with that idiot. Therein lays the problem.

Put it this way: If Ozzie had said "Gay people are just a bunch of Marriottis", I think we'd all think it was a pretty mean and hateful thing to say, no? Well, that's basically what he did only worse.

(actually, maybe that's a better way to do things: Just use the name of the guy you want to insult as the term. "Stop being a Marriotti", "You ****ing Marriotti".)

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 02:54 PM
One of the sermons I always give young journalists ó and suddenly everyone is a young journalist to me these days ó is to never let yourself become part of the story.

But I violated that tenet over the years when it came to the issue of Mark Gubicza and the Royals Hall of Fame.

I preached in columns that Gubicza deserved entrance, and, of course, I voted for him every election. Finally, this past election, fellow voters agreed.


story from KC Star today (Jeffrey Flanagan)....and one of the first places where Mariotti goes wrong

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2006, 02:55 PM
What Ozzie said was not right. It was not good, it should never have been said. Of course.
BUT, I'm going to say I believe Ozzie in that he meant it a different way. In one of the articles posted in the first post, it says Ozzie had to ask what a "creep" was. I believe him when he says he is using the word as it is used in Venezuela. However, I do think he should apologize, and a fine or suspension is appropriate.

I must say, Around The Horn is going to very interesting today, to hear what the Moron himself has to say.Words do change in meaning, and that's especially true of slang words. It's common to hear someone say "He sucks". Some people get all hyperventilated when they hear that because they're interpreting it according to its original meaning, but it's long since evolved away from that. Ozzie said that the word he used has an entirely different meaning in Venezuela. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I have no idea. I'm pretty sure I've spent the same amount of time in Venezuela as most of the posters here. Should he know better? Not automatically. People frequently get in trouble with slang words in languages other than their own native one. I guess I'd be willing to cut him some slack here and accept that he didn't mean it in the way it's commonly understood. He did apologize.

The real bottom line was said best by FloridaTigers. Whether he understands the meaning of slang words or not, he should know better than to get into a public war of words with a twerp like Moronotti.

Chip Z'nuff
06-21-2006, 02:55 PM
now if he called mariotti a jelly donut, a.k.a kennedy's snafu, then I would have a problem with it.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 02:56 PM
Put it this way: If Ozzie had said "Gay people are just a bunch of Marriottis", I think we'd all think it was a pretty mean and hateful thing to say, no? Well, that's basically what he did only worse.

(actually, maybe that's a better way to do things: Just use the name of the guy you want to insult as the term. "Stop being a Marriotti", "You ****ing Marriotti".)

I think you're on to something! :smile:

Like "LaRussa pulled a mariotti when he ordered Ponson to hit Sox players"

Or: "The Cardinals played like a bunch of mariottis when they lost 20-6 to the White Sox last night"

Or: "putting ketchup on your hot dog is so mariotti"

:)

ChiFabulous1
06-21-2006, 02:57 PM
:tomatoaward:tomatoaward

oeo
06-21-2006, 02:57 PM
Im sure every one of you have gotten so upset with someone you said something you probably shouldnt have on many occasions, only not under the public eye. He shouldnt have said what he said, but he's not the president or the voice or morailty- hes a baseball manager that takes his game personally and spews words out of anger that IMO shouldnt be taken so literally.
Exactly. I'm sure he didn't mean to harm or offend anyone, outside of the Moron himself.

But I'm not going to bother posting anymore because this an opinionated issue, and everyone has one, no one is going to change it.

Vernam
06-21-2006, 02:59 PM
What the Sox really need to do is ignore the SOB. Freeze him out. No free pub. Anyone who even mentions his name gets fined. :thumbsup: I completely agree. The reason this story will have at least a couple of days' life is that The Moronic One will latch onto it as fodder for columns and as an excuse to give doe-eyed interviews on TV, all by way of pointing out what a bad, bad man Ozzie is and how wronged he, the Moron, is.

I'm not going to excuse what Ozzie said, because it was stupid. Stupid to give the Moron such ammunition, and stupid to risk offending a segment of the population toward which Ozzie insists he bears no ill will.

But I've said since we won it all in '05 that the only thing that could derail this team over the long haul is self-destructive behavior by Ozzie. The media do love his quotability, but he should not mistake that for permission to say any damn thing he wants.

The same reporters who profess their love will burn him in effigy if he gives them a reason. He didn't quite, this time, IMO, and maybe it will serve as a wakeup call. I really do fear that he might say something that would give the Sox no choice but to fire him. He needs to show a little more discipline than to play into the Moron's hands this way.

Vernam

sullythered
06-21-2006, 03:00 PM
Please.
We all seem to forget that these are athletes we're talking about here. Words like the one Ozzie used are used EVERY DAY by athletes at ALL levels of sports. Is that a good thing? Absolutely not. But it should not be even a little surprising. Athletes can be incredibly dumb. This comes from an insulated sports life that they've often led. These guys are not mouthpieces for anything, because they usually can't articulate or even understand what the heck they're talking about. That is why they shouldn't be role models. I still love Ozzie, because I understand him for what he is. A former athlete, who simply has a solid understanding for the sport he played. He isn't perfect, and no one should expect much from him, or any other athlete, when it comes to sensitivity. Dumb jock might be a stereotype, but it is an apt one in an overwhelming majority of cases.

Jaffar
06-21-2006, 03:00 PM
Exactly. I'm sure he didn't mean to harm or offend anyone, outside of the Moron himself.

Based on 16 pages here and Dan Patrick talking about it means he offended somebody. Intentional or not he did. Hopefully though, with his apology and assuming he uses better words next time we can all get past this.

oeo
06-21-2006, 03:04 PM
Based on 16 pages here and Dan Patrick talking about it means he offended somebody. Intentional or not he did. Hopefully though, with his apology and assuming he uses better words next time we can all get past this.

I never said he didn't offend anyone, I said he wasn't trying to offend anyone. Things slip sometimes, we all do it. You get angry and things come out that you don't mean or want to say. What makes it then offensive is when people think it's a jab at the whole gay community, and I honestly do not believe that's what he was doing.

Now, I'm done, no more Moron for me.

viagracat
06-21-2006, 03:05 PM
I never said he didn't offend anyone, I said he wasn't trying to offend anyone. Things slip sometimes, we all do it. You get angry and things come out that you don't mean or want to say. What makes it then offensive is when people think it's a jab at the whole gay community, and I honestly do not believe that's what he was doing.

Now, I'm done, no more Moron for me.

Yeah, don't waste your upcoming 2000th post on that asshat. :cool:

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 03:06 PM
What has the t.v. coverage been on this in the Chicago market?

Is anyone taking the bait?

I always know it's a big story when it is the one item on the front page of cnn.com.

Luckily, that hasn't happened, at least yet.

TornLabrum
06-21-2006, 03:08 PM
C'mon palehose... do you actually think Ozzie has the vocabulary and verbal communication skills necessary to state exactly what Mariotti true is? I'm sure he thought that, but between his brainwaves and his mouth moving, somehow the word "***" came out. :D:

I've heard Ozzie use the word "****" many times. He has the vocabulary.

Jaffar
06-21-2006, 03:09 PM
What makes it then offensive is when people think it's a jab at the whole gay community, and I honestly do not believe that's what he was doing.
I agree with you on that point.

When it comes to words like ****** and ***, I am not very comfortable saying either one. My question is though, what is with the double standard with black people and gays being able to use these term towards each other? My g/f has many gay friends and they all call her a *** hag (in a friendly way), they even jokingly say it to each other in a derogatory way. I've never understood that. If it's bad it's bad, period.

Edit-I just want to make it clear though that I think Ozzie was wrong in saying what he did.

voodoochile
06-21-2006, 03:11 PM
I agree with you on that point.

When it comes to words like ****** and ***, I am not very comfortable saying either one. My question is though, what is with the double standard with black people and gays being able to use these term towards each other? My g/f has many gay friends and they all call her a *** hag (in a friendly way), they even jokingly say it to each other in a derogatory way. I've never understood that. If it's bad it's bad, period.

If you are one, use it.

If not, don't.

It's pretty simple...

Irishsox1
06-21-2006, 03:14 PM
I don't know if this has been posted, but....this is the best place for Moronetti news in a blog. All this guy does is badger the windbag.

Linky (http://www.jaythejoke.com/blog.html)

Justagirl
06-21-2006, 03:16 PM
If you are one, use it.

If not, don't.

It's pretty simple...
/noted

I wonder if you call a homosexual a heterosexual.. would they get offended??

Mickster
06-21-2006, 03:16 PM
If you are one, use it.

If not, don't.

It's pretty simple...

I agree that this is the general rule. I disagree with the rule itself.

If it is offensive to be called it, why call someone it in jest? Just because you can?

This applies not just to ***, but also to ******, spic, etc. I have personally seen it happen, and I just stand back and scratch my head.

caulfield12
06-21-2006, 03:17 PM
Well, the cbssportsline.com roto guy just called the Padres and Cubs "nancy-boy line-ups...."

Is Nancy McKeon from Facts of Life going to sue?

Fake Chet Lemon
06-21-2006, 03:19 PM
If everyone would quit buying the Sun Times (like I did long ago) because of Maroitti, they would fire him. If you buy the Sun Times, you are an enabler to Mariotti and therefore have ZERO right to bitch about him.

Switch to the Tribune like me. At he same time, you get to screw the Cubs when you do that! Nothing will change over there as long as they are selling papers and selling the stadium out.

Lastly, I wish Ozzie would win with class. Kenny has assembled a classy team of guys. Emulate them. Still love Ozzie!!! Just wish he'd win with class.

Jaffar
06-21-2006, 03:21 PM
I agree that this is the general rule. I disagree with the rule itself.

If it is offensive to be called it, why call someone it in jest? Just because you can?

This applies not just to ***, but also to ******, spic, etc. I have personally seen it happen, and I just stand back and scratch my head.

That is where I was trying to go with my comment, thanks.

HotelWhiteSox
06-21-2006, 03:21 PM
Heard this word so much in high school and junior high that you don't even think about it having anything to do with homosexuality. Not saying anything is justified, but it's almost like it just replaced a synonym for '*******', 'son of a bitch' or something like that. In the past it may have been different, but today I don't think people who use it think twice about it referring to homosexuals

We are in America, and no one said Ozzie has to like homosexuals, but I don't think that was his intention of the comment at all. I say fine him for using unneccasary language in public and move on, and tell Hawk to ****

Deuce
06-21-2006, 03:22 PM
Well, the cbssportsline.com roto guy just called the Padres and Cubs "nancy-boy line-ups...."

Is Nancy McKeon from Facts of Life going to sue?Oh course not... because she takes the good, she takes the bad, she takes them both and there you have the Facts of Life. The Facts of Life. :redneck

sullythered
06-21-2006, 03:24 PM
...and tell Hawk to ****
What did Hawk say?

Martinigirl
06-21-2006, 03:26 PM
For the most part, I really do like Ozzie. I will always be grateful for what he did and what he gets out of his players today, however, he is an adult and it would serve him, and the White Sox, well if he remembers that. He has a tendency to act like a petulant child. And yes, professional sports can create an environment of prolonged childhood, but he is now a manager. As he says "the father" of the team, and he might want to remember that before he acts like a 14 year old how didn't get what he wanted.

A social filter exists in most adults, the part of your brain that prevents you from saying every thought you have the second you have it. Everyone thinks snarky, occasionally inappropriate comments, but an adult can keep them to themselves. Ozzie might want to develop one, quickly.

And for those who say the whole "Ozzie being Ozzie" mantra, anyone can act like an ass, but no one in life should get a free pass for everything. And instead of trying to justify the idiotic comment, he should just apologize for it, if not to JM (which I would never ask anyone to do), than to anyone he offended by it.