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hold2dibber
06-19-2006, 02:47 PM
Great win by the Sox yesterday, but I have to get something off my chest that I didn't see covered elsewhere. Was anybody else disappointed at Dye's effort on the failed squeeze? It was clear as soon as it hit Uribe's bat that it was in the air and foul. Jermaine immediately should have hi-tailed it back to third. Instead, he slowed to a trot, and then when LaRue actually made the catch, Dye basically just stopped and gave up. Most likely the result would have been the same, but in that situation, you turn around and run like hell towards third, so if he does catch it, he has to make the throw to third to complete the DP. Maybe he can't get the ball out of his mitt and he makes it back safe. Or maybe he sails throw into LF and Dye scores. In any event, JD should know better!

TornLabrum
06-19-2006, 02:49 PM
Great win by the Sox yesterday, but I have to get something off my chest that I didn't see covered elsewhere. Was anybody else disappointed at Dye's effort on the failed squeeze? It was clear as soon as it hit Uribe's bat that it was in the air and foul. Jermaine immediately should have hi-tailed it back to third. Instead, he slowed to a trot, and then when LaRue actually made the catch, Dye basically just stopped and gave up. Most likely the result would have been the same, but in that situation, you turn around and run like hell towards third, so if he does catch it, he has to make the throw to third to complete the DP. Maybe he can't get the ball out of his mitt and he makes it back safe. Or maybe he sails throw into LF and Dye scores. In any event, JD should know better!

That's why it's called a suicide squeeze.

hold2dibber
06-19-2006, 03:03 PM
That's why it's called a suicide squeeze.

I understand the risk, but after he hit it and it was up and foul, at that point there's no way he's going to score. Either it falls and is foul and he goes back to third, or LaRue catches it and JD is in big trouble. So why not start running back? The play isn't over yet - don't give up, hustle, force them to make the play.

itsnotrequired
06-19-2006, 03:04 PM
I understand the risk, but after he hit it and it was up and foul, at that point there's no way he's going to score. Either it falls and is foul and he goes back to third, or LaRue catches it and JD is in big trouble. So why not start running back? The play isn't over yet - don't give up, hustle, force them to make the play.

Send Dye to the minors.

JD was charging to the plate. By the time he saw what was happening, it was too late.

soxfan13
06-19-2006, 03:05 PM
He was dead dead dead. All he could hope for was a drop which didnt happen.

rdwj
06-19-2006, 03:10 PM
He didn't have a prayer.

On the other hand, I wish Uribe would have interfered with LaRue a little more. I mean, he KNEW the sqeeeze was on - don't let him catch the ball. I guess that asking a little too much - actually considering what to do in case of a pop-up, but it would have been nice.

buehrle4cy05
06-19-2006, 03:10 PM
The way JD was charging to the plate, to do a turn around and hustle back to third would be a good way to aggravate his hamstring/groin/calf. Even if he did try to go back, best case scenario is that he gets in a rundown and the Reds commit and error.

sox102
06-19-2006, 03:11 PM
Leave it to some one to complain about in an 8-1 win, especially when your pitcher hits a 2-run homer. No big deal in my book. They still won the game.

Chipol
06-19-2006, 03:13 PM
OK. I have to confess that when the play happened I yelled at the TV "Run, Jermaine!" Sure, he was dead, but if he turned and ran back to third, he forces the catcher to make a throw and who knows? After all, this was Cincy defense.

Mercy!
06-19-2006, 03:15 PM
I wish Uribe hadn't popped it up is all, but no, I didn't expect Dye to try to go back to 3rd.

However, what was a little peculiar is that the catcher didn't seem to realize where Dye actually was on the base path, that he had come so far down. It might have been VERY interesting if Dye had made a mad plunge toward home at that point, because, if you'll recall, the catcher went up the line looking toward 3rd before he turned and put the tag on. I'm just saying..............:smile:

Edit: Uh. Oh yeah. The ball was caught. Nevermind. [insert red-faced smilie]

Edit #2: Maybe AJ could have come out and socked the catcher in the jaw. Then when he dropped the ball, Dye could have...................

itsnotrequired
06-19-2006, 03:17 PM
It might have been VERY interesting if Dye had made a mad plunge toward home at that point, because, if you'll recall, the catcher went up the line looking toward 3rd before he turned and put the tag on. I'm just saying..............:smile:

What exactly are you saying? The catcher would see Dye flopping around on home plate and calmly throw the ball to third?

ondafarm
06-19-2006, 03:18 PM
I didn't think much of the call, we know Uribe is not a good bunter. His technique really stunk on that play. I never really know why anybody pops a bunt up. You put the bat at the top of the strikezone and just push down.

As to Dye, trying to stop, turn around and go back would be a good way to injure a groin or something else. Charging down the line, you are basicly at a dead sprint, anything less and the play doesn't work. From a dead sprint very few people can slam on the brakes that quickly and start going back.

That's not JD's fault at all.

SOXfnNlansing
06-19-2006, 03:20 PM
When I saw the play all I could think about is maybe Uribe could have got in the way of the catcher and would be called out for interference. I don't know the ruling on that but that's all I could think of.

Mercy!
06-19-2006, 03:21 PM
What exactly are you saying? The catcher would see Dye flopping around on home plate and calmly throw the ball to third?

LOL. See above. Maybe Uribe should have socked him in the jaw.

MrRoboto83
06-19-2006, 03:22 PM
I'm just glad that Ozzie is still doing squeeze plays all the time. The Sox looked more like a National League team than the Reds did over the weekend.

Chipol
06-19-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm just glad that Ozzie is still doing squeeze plays all the time. The Sox looked more like a National League team than the Reds did over the weekend.

I hear you there. I had to watch the Cincy feed on DirectV and they were awfully impresseed with the Sox. Sunday, one of the announcers said--All they did all weekend is get 'em on, get 'em over, get 'em in. Big smile when I heard that.

Another time, they said--you hear about the pitching and the boppers, but the Sox flat-out execute.

hold2dibber
06-19-2006, 03:28 PM
Leave it to some one to complain about in an 8-1 win, especially when your pitcher hits a 2-run homer. No big deal in my book. They still won the game.

I'm not complaining - it was a great win. But I don't think the play was consistent with what Ozzie preaches, which is 100% effort at all times, forcing the issue and being aggressive. I'm a huge Dye fan, but I don't think he gave his all that play and I think he should have forced the Reds to execute by running back to third instead of just giving up. The fact that they won anyway is entirely irrelevant.

vegyrex
06-19-2006, 03:35 PM
I'm just glad that Ozzie is still doing squeeze plays all the time. The Sox looked more like a National League team than the Reds did over the weekend.
I never saw the GO GO White Sox play but I can imagine this Reds series might have been a glimpse of what White Sox baseball was like in the 50's and 60's.

RichFitztightly
06-19-2006, 03:45 PM
I'm not complaining - it was a great win. But I don't think the play was consistent with what Ozzie preaches, which is 100% effort at all times, forcing the issue and being aggressive. I'm a huge Dye fan, but I don't think he gave his all that play and I think he should have forced the Reds to execute by running back to third instead of just giving up. The fact that they won anyway is entirely irrelevant.

I understand what you're saying, while I didn't see the Dye Suicide squeeze, I have seen a couple of plays where as a little league coach I'd be screaming at my players, "Quit looking at the ball and run!!!" Or "Keep your head down when you swing!!!" I know what you're saying, but I just file the observation into the category of watch out and make sure it doesn't become a problem. It isn't bad now, and with Ozzie as a manager, it won't become a problem.

kobo
06-19-2006, 03:50 PM
So let me get this straight. People think Dye, who was running at full speed to the plate, should have stopped when the ball was hit in the air and then ran back to third to try to get the catcher to throw the ball to the bag? I don't know about any of you, but I find it hard to stop in the middle of a sprint and then run back the opposite way. Even if he had done that I still think he would have been out.

slobes
06-19-2006, 04:00 PM
When I saw the play all I could think about is maybe Uribe could have got in the way of the catcher and would be called out for interference. I don't know the ruling on that but that's all I could think of.

Yeah I was wondering this too. If Uribe had blatently stood in front of the catcher's way, causing him to drop it, and then he got called for interference, I would assume that JD would just be called back to 3rd. Or does anyone know if there's a different ruling?

Not that I'm blaming Juan for not like tackling the catcher, he didn't exactly have time to think about the ruling on an intereference call and whether or not JD would be allowed to go back to 3rd.

Chipol
06-19-2006, 04:04 PM
So let me get this straight. People think Dye, who was running at full speed to the plate, should have stopped when the ball was hit in the air and then ran back to third to try to get the catcher to throw the ball to the bag? I don't know about any of you, but I find it hard to stop in the middle of a sprint and then run back the opposite way. Even if he had done that I still think he would have been out.

Dye did not run full speed into the tag. Dye stood still while the catcher covered the last 3-4 steps to come over and tag him.

TornLabrum
06-19-2006, 04:35 PM
So let me get this straight. People think Dye, who was running at full speed to the plate, should have stopped when the ball was hit in the air and then ran back to third to try to get the catcher to throw the ball to the bag? I don't know about any of you, but I find it hard to stop in the middle of a sprint and then run back the opposite way. Even if he had done that I still think he would have been out.

But Dye is in the major leagues. He should be able to perform superhuman feats!

Let me put it another way:

:threadsucks

QCIASOXFAN
06-19-2006, 04:49 PM
But Dye is in the major leagues. He should be able to perform superhuman feats!

Let me put it another way:

:threadsucks
I don't get the point this thread either, it was a SUICIDE SQUEEZE! Is he supposed to not get a good jump and not be running hard just in case something like that happens? That is the risk you take when you do that, also who cares if he didn't run back to 3rd, there catcher was like 5 feet away from him and I am pretty sure that he would not have come within 20 feet of beating the throw.

ilsox7
06-19-2006, 04:55 PM
It's hard to hit new lows at WSI when it comes to things to complain about. But this one has established such a low.

Scottiehaswheels
06-19-2006, 05:25 PM
It's hard to hit new lows at WSI when it comes to things to complain about. But this one has established such a low.Eh thats not as bad as some "Sox" fan that was sitting next to me at that game.... He made some moronic comment of something like Dye should have just kept going and scored..... :?:

ilsox7
06-19-2006, 05:26 PM
Eh thats not as bad as some "Sox" fan that was sitting next to me at that game.... He made some moronic comment of something like Dye should have just kept going and scored..... :?:

Well, if he comes and posts that here, I'll say we've established yet another new low. :smile:

The Wall
06-19-2006, 05:39 PM
Great win by the Sox yesterday, but I have to get something off my chest that I didn't see covered elsewhere. Was anybody else disappointed at Dye's effort on the failed squeeze? It was clear as soon as it hit Uribe's bat that it was in the air and foul. Jermaine immediately should have hi-tailed it back to third. Instead, he slowed to a trot, and then when LaRue actually made the catch, Dye basically just stopped and gave up. Most likely the result would have been the same, but in that situation, you turn around and run like hell towards third, so if he does catch it, he has to make the throw to third to complete the DP. Maybe he can't get the ball out of his mitt and he makes it back safe. Or maybe he sails throw into LF and Dye scores. In any event, JD should know better!

Maybe you should try this on the sidewalk in front of ur home. You will need the following: 3 markers and a measuring tape.

1. Place one marker on the ground.
2. Using the tape, measure 5 feet and place the second marker at the 5 feet mark. Measure a further 85 feet from the 2nd marker and place the 3rd marker at 90 feet.

3. Run from the 3rd marker to the 2nd like crazy....dont slow, halt or stop before you reach 2nd marker. You should reach the 2nd marker at full steam.

4. Now at the 2nd marker, Try turning around and going back at full speed toward the 3rd marker.

5. Hope you have medical insurance to cover for the injuries.

harwar
06-20-2006, 07:17 AM
Dye might be the best pure all around hitter on our club.
He might be the best in the clutch,when the game is on the line.
Trying to get oneself in a rundown when you are dead(suicide) anyway,and its the first time in years when you are able to stay healthy,is unthinking.

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 08:56 AM
But Dye is in the major leagues. He should be able to perform superhuman feats!

It's hard to hit new lows at WSI when it comes to things to complain about. But this one has established such a low.


Jeez are you guys prickly! Just because there have been instances of unwarranted complaints, this ain't one of 'em. Dye gave up on a play before it was over. Again, I am a big Dye fan, I'm thrilled with the team and am enjoying the season, but frankly I made the (correct) observation that Dye did not give his all on the play. It was essentially a run down situation and he didn't run. He just stopped and let himself be tagged out. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, not saying Dye should be punished or anything, just an observation. The only rational, reasoned response to my observation, was that Dye has been hurt and might have been protecting himself against re-injury. Other than that, the responses, including the two above, have been little more than "that's a complaint and we don't like complaints when the Sox win." What the heck is that?


Maybe you should try this on the sidewalk in front of ur home. You will need the following: 3 markers and a measuring tape.

1. Place one marker on the ground.
2. Using the tape, measure 5 feet and place the second marker at the 5 feet mark. Measure a further 85 feet from the 2nd marker and place the 3rd marker at 90 feet.

3. Run from the 3rd marker to the 2nd like crazy....dont slow, halt or stop before you reach 2nd marker. You should reach the 2nd marker at full steam.

4. Now at the 2nd marker, Try turning around and going back at full speed toward the 3rd marker.

5. Hope you have medical insurance to cover for the injuries.

Maybe you should try watching a baseball game once in a while, or better yet, re-watching the play in question, instead of making sarcastic and innane posts. Are you suggesting that players running hard don't stop, turn around and run in the other direction? Try doing a Google search on the word "rundown" and see if you learn anything. Where does the "dont slow, halt or stop" part of your instructions come from? Did I say that? No, but hey, don't let what I actually said get in the way of your "witty" response, right!

The very second Uribe hit the ball, it was obvious that the squeeze did not work. At that point, Dye should have turned around and gone back to third instead of just resigning himself to being tagged. After the bunt was up and foul, he watched the play while slowing to a walk, then turned around and started walking back to third. If, instead of slowing to walk, he had simply turned around (and no, Wall, that doesn't mean I expected superhuman pivoting - he can slow enough to turnaround, just like players do when they get caught in a rundown) and run back to third, LaRue has to throw to third to get him. I say you make the other guy make the play, instead of simply giving up before the play is over.

With that said, I will reiterate, again, for those who are having a hard time understanding the point of the thread, that I'm not calling for Dye's head and not whining. Just observing a play that wasn't well executed and noting what the player should have done. Nothing more, nothing less. If you interpret that observation as complaining or whining, than I guess you're in the "my team can do no wrong and we should never note any bad plays by players on my team " camp (which, in my view, is a camp mostly populated by Flubs fans).

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 09:24 AM
Jeez are you guys prickly! Just because there have been instances of unwarranted complaints, this ain't one of 'em. Dye gave up on a play before it was over. Again, I am a big Dye fan, I'm thrilled with the team and am enjoying the season, but frankly I made the (correct) observation that Dye did not give his all on the play. It was essentially a run down situation and he didn't run. He just stopped and let himself be tagged out. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, not saying Dye should be punished or anything, just an observation. The only rational, reasoned response to my observation, was that Dye has been hurt and might have been protecting himself against re-injury. Other than that, the responses, including the two above, have been little more than "that's a complaint and we don't like complaints when the Sox win." What the heck is that?

Speaking for myself, I don't mind valid complaints when the Sox win, but this just isn't one. Dye goes charging down the line. Uribe pops up, and who do you go after? Dye, who did his job. You wanted him to go from a dead sprint (it appeared to me he came to a stop within 10 feet of home plate, turn around and dash back 80-odd feet to third base when the damn catcher is standing 5-10 feet away from him.

Unless Dye was born on the planet Krypton, it ain't gonna happen. The catcher ain't gonna make a bad throw to third base with Dye having to run back 80 feet. Dye was a dead duck.

Now if you want to go after Uribe for his horrible bunt attempt, feel free. You won't get any static from me. But as far as I'm concerned:

:threadblows:

Frankly Missing
06-20-2006, 09:37 AM
For what it's worth, at the time I thought it was strange Dye didn't try to beat a path back to third and maybe force a throwing error. But I understand the odds were greatly stacked against that happening.

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 09:41 AM
Speaking for myself, I don't mind valid complaints when the Sox win, but this just isn't one. Dye goes charging down the line. Uribe pops up, and who do you go after? Dye, who did his job. You wanted him to go from a dead sprint (it appeared to me he came to a stop within 10 feet of home plate, turn around and dash back 80-odd feet to third base when the damn catcher is standing 5-10 feet away from him.

Unless Dye was born on the planet Krypton, it ain't gonna happen. The catcher ain't gonna make a bad throw to third base with Dye having to run back 80 feet. Dye was a dead duck.

Now if you want to go after Uribe for his horrible bunt attempt, feel free. You won't get any static from me.

I think we have two points of contention:

(1) I don't think Dye was anywhere near 80 feet from 3rd when Uribe made contact. More like 65 feet. And by the time LaRue runs, dives, catches the ball, and gets back to his feet, Dye could have been well on his way back. He likely would have been out, but it would have been a play. Dye made no adjustment whatsoever until after LaRue caught the ball and even then, his adjustment was just to walk the other way.

(2) I just don't like any situation in which the player gives up before the play is over. By your reasoning, is it okay not to run hard to first on a grounder? 96% of the time, the guy is going to make the play, so why bother? If that play had happened in the 9th inning of a tie ball game, or with the Sox down a run, I suspect others would agree with my observation. They won, I'm happy, I'm not even upset with JD. I just thought the play was not consistent with this team's M.O. of hustling, being aggressive and putting the pressure on the other team. Not a sign of the impending apocolypse, not a suggestion that the Sox are doomed, not an indictment of JD. Just a bad play.

Ol' No. 2
06-20-2006, 09:48 AM
I think we have two points of contention:

(1) I don't think Dye was anywhere near 80 feet from 3rd when Uribe made contact. More like 65 feet. And by the time LaRue runs, dives, catches the ball, and gets back to his feet, Dye could have been well on his way back. He likely would have been out, but it would have been a play. Dye made no adjustment whatsoever until after LaRue caught the ball and even then, his adjustment was just to walk the other way.

(2) I just don't like any situation in which the player gives up before the play is over. By your reasoning, is it okay not to run hard to first on a grounder? 96% of the time, the guy is going to make the play, so why bother? If that play had happened in the 9th inning of a tie ball game, or with the Sox down a run, I suspect others would agree with my observation. They won, I'm happy, I'm not even upset with JD. I just thought the play was not consistent with this team's M.O. of hustling, being aggressive and putting the pressure on the other team. Not a sign of the impending apocolypse, not a suggestion that the Sox are doomed, not an indictment of JD. Just a bad play.When LaRue caught the ball he was BETWEEN Dye and third base. He came back toward home plate to tag him. Give it up.

Gavin
06-20-2006, 09:56 AM
Wow, amongst the "This Thread Blows" and "This Thread Sucks" comments by everyone in this thread, I implore you observational humor geniouses to actually view the play in question:

mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive06/061806_chacin_cin_larue_dp_tp_350.wmv?media_type=w ms&av_type=video&event_pk=501625&product=mlb_tp
(mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive06/061806_chacin_cin_larue_dp_tp_350.wmv?media_type=w ms&av_type=video&event_pk=501625&product=mlb_tp)
If Jermaine Dye has time to stop, and then basically stand there for a few moments, he definitely has time to at least TRY to go back to third base. JD has never been Charlie Hustle on the basepaths, if I recall correctly he has trotted into second a few times on a double that were waaay too close.

Despite the fact that running back probably would not have made much of a difference, JD exemplifed an absolutely unforgiveable lack of hustle in this play.

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 10:02 AM
When LaRue caught the ball he was BETWEEN Dye and third base. He came back toward home plate to tag him. Give it up.

Give it up? Never! My non-controversial, well-intentioned observation has been ridiculed and demeaned. As a result, I have no choice but to dig in my heels and fight to the death! I shall never concede the point now! I will prevail upon each and everyone one of you until you concede, relent and withdraw your objections, even if it takes 1,000,000 posts!

All right, I'll calm down now. But my whole point is, Dye should have gone back to 3rd before LaRue caught the ball. LaRue had to take about 3-4 steps and dive for the ball - during that (admittedly brief) time frame, JD could have reversed field and high-tailed it back to third. All I know is, my HS coach would have had me running sprints if I had done what JD did -- of course, my HS team stunk and my coach was a raving lunatic, but I can't let those kinds of details get in the way of my point!

Gavin
06-20-2006, 10:04 AM
Give it up? Never! My non-controversial, well-intentioned observation (about which I didn't feel too strongly at the outset) has been ridiculed and demeaned. As a result, I have no choice but to dig in my heels and fight to the death! I shall never concede the point now! I will prevail upon each and everyone one of you until you concede, relent and withdraw your objections, even if it takes 1,000,000 posts!

All right, I'll calm down now. But my whole point is, Dye should have gone back to 3rd before LaRue caught the ball. LaRue had to take about 3-4 steps and dive for the ball - during that (admittedly brief) time frame, JD could have reversed field and high-tailed it back to third. All I know is, my HS coach would have had me running sprints if I had done what JD did -- of course, my HS team stunk and my coach was a raving lunatic, but I can't let those kinds of details get in the way of my point!

Dye was already stopped dead in his tracks by the time LaRue was in the dirt catching the ball. LaRue only got between Dye and 3B because Dye was inert.

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 10:05 AM
I think we have two points of contention:

(1) I don't think Dye was anywhere near 80 feet from 3rd when Uribe made contact. More like 65 feet. And by the time LaRue runs, dives, catches the ball, and gets back to his feet, Dye could have been well on his way back. He likely would have been out, but it would have been a play. Dye made no adjustment whatsoever until after LaRue caught the ball and even then, his adjustment was just to walk the other way.

(2) I just don't like any situation in which the player gives up before the play is over. By your reasoning, is it okay not to run hard to first on a grounder? 96% of the time, the guy is going to make the play, so why bother? If that play had happened in the 9th inning of a tie ball game, or with the Sox down a run, I suspect others would agree with my observation. They won, I'm happy, I'm not even upset with JD. I just thought the play was not consistent with this team's M.O. of hustling, being aggressive and putting the pressure on the other team. Not a sign of the impending apocolypse, not a suggestion that the Sox are doomed, not an indictment of JD. Just a bad play.

(1) If you go back to the original quote, I said he was about 10 feet from home plate when he came to a stop, not when contact was made with the ball. It's going to take him several feet after contact is made to come to a stop and then turn around and make a (stupid) mad dash to third base while the catcher tosses the ball to the base.

(2) Let me answer this with a question. The hit and run is on. Runner on first makes a mad dash to second and the ball is hit in the air to right field. It appears that it will drop in, so the runner starts for third. Right fielder makes a spectacular catch and has an easy toss to the third baseman. Do you want the runner to make a mad dash back to first?

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 10:07 AM
Wow, amongst the "This Thread Blows" and "This Thread Sucks" comments by everyone in this thread, I implore you observational humor geniouses to actually view the play in question:

mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive06/061806_chacin_cin_larue_dp_tp_350.wmv?media_type=w ms&av_type=video&event_pk=501625&product=mlb_tp
(mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/tp/archive06/061806_chacin_cin_larue_dp_tp_350.wmv?media_type=w ms&av_type=video&event_pk=501625&product=mlb_tp)
If Jermaine Dye has time to stop, and then basically stand there for a few moments, he definitely has time to at least TRY to go back to third base. JD has never been Charlie Hustle on the basepaths, if I recall correctly he has trotted into second a few times on a double that were waaay too close.

Despite the fact that running back probably would not have made much of a difference, JD exemplifed an absolutely unforgiveable lack of hustle in this play.

Gavin, you're the man!

As the play shows, LaRue was not between Dye and 3rd when he made the catch. And it shows Dye stopping, watching and half-heartedly turning around. He didn't hustle - after watching that play, I defy anyone to contend that he did. I'm not sure I agree with the "absolutely unforgiveable" part, but it was a weak effort, to say the least.

Ol' No. 2
06-20-2006, 10:08 AM
Give it up? Never! My non-controversial, well-intentioned observation has been ridiculed and demeaned. As a result, I have no choice but to dig in my heels and fight to the death! I shall never concede the point now! I will prevail upon each and everyone one of you until you concede, relent and withdraw your objections, even if it takes 1,000,000 posts!

All right, I'll calm down now. But my whole point is, Dye should have gone back to 3rd before LaRue caught the ball. LaRue had to take about 3-4 steps and dive for the ball - during that (admittedly brief) time frame, JD could have reversed field and high-tailed it back to third. All I know is, my HS coach would have had me running sprints if I had done what JD did -- of course, my HS team stunk and my coach was a raving lunatic, but I can't let those kinds of details get in the way of my point!No, he couldn't. No human could. That seems to be the point that's eluding you. By the time he stopped and turned around, LaRue was already up and moving toward third base. That's why there was no point in running back to thrid base - LaRue was already behind him. He'd have just been running into a tag. There was no chance of a missed throw because a throw wasn't necessary.

Gavin
06-20-2006, 10:12 AM
No, he couldn't. No human could. That seems to be the point that's eluding you. By the time he stopped and turned around, LaRue was already up and moving toward third base. That's why there was no point in running back to thrid base - LaRue was already behind him. He'd have just been running into a tag. There was no chance of a missed throw because a throw wasn't necessary.
I challenge the notion that "no human could". Anyone who's done sprints on a basketball court should know the drill where you sprint to a line, touch it, sprint in the reverse direction, etc. I suppose you could argue that Dye didn't know he had to turn around/stop sprinting towards home until it was too late, but in that regard I would blame Cora for not screaming "BACK!" immediatly after seeing Uribe had fouled it off. There was at least some hang time that allowed for some reaction. I'm just really turned off by Dye's whole apathy.

edit: not much hang time, really

itsnotrequired
06-20-2006, 10:14 AM
No, he couldn't. No human could. That seems to be the point that's eluding you. By the time he stopped and turned around, LaRue was already up and moving toward third base. That's why there was no point in running back to thrid base - LaRue was already behind him. He'd have just been running into a tag. There was no chance of a missed throw because a throw wasn't necessary.

Willie Mays Hayes would have made it.

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 10:14 AM
(1) If you go back to the original quote, I said he was about 10 feet from home plate when he came to a stop, not when contact was made with the ball. It's going to take him several feet after contact is made to come to a stop and then turn around and make a (stupid) mad dash to third base while the catcher tosses the ball to the base.

[Dibber ... trying ... desparately ... not to get sucked back into this debate ... can't resist ...] I agree that you said he was 10 feet away from home when he came to a stop. My point was that he didn't come to a stop earlier and he should have. As soon as Uribe popped it up, he should have turned around, but he didn't, he just slowed down and kept trotting towards home. Watch the replay - LaRue is sprinting into foul territory to catch the pop up and yet Dye doesn't stop moving towards home until after LaRue catches it. Why is he still going towards home???? It's either going to be foul or LaRue is going to catch it - in either case, Dye has no chance of scoring, so why not go back?


(2) Let me answer this with a question. The hit and run is on. Runner on first makes a mad dash to second and the ball is hit in the air to right field. It appears that it will drop in, so the runner starts for third. Right fielder makes a spectacular catch and has an easy toss to the third baseman. Do you want the runner to make a mad dash back to first?

Nope. He's way too far at that point and even if the right fielder over throws first, the runner will be out. But that is not anolgous to the play in question here -- in your hypo, if the RF doesn't make the great play, the runner is scoring. Here, if LaRue doesn't make the great play ... Dye has to go back to 3rd anyway, because it clearly is a foul ball. Dye didn't have any illusions, once Uribe popped it foul, that he was going to score. In your hypo the runner thinks it'll fall for a hit so he keeps running. JD knew that wasn't going to happen, so he should have gone back.

Gavin
06-20-2006, 10:16 AM
Watch the replay - LaRue is sprinting into foul territory to catch the pop up and yet Dye doesn't stop moving towards home until after LaRue catches it. Why is he still going towards home???? It's either going to be foul or LaRue is going to catch it - in either case, Dye has no chance of scoring, so why not go back?

You're wrong. It could have bounced off LaRue's body into fair territory making the ball fair. But other than that...

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 10:18 AM
No, he couldn't. No human could. That seems to be the point that's eluding you. By the time he stopped and turned around, LaRue was already up and moving toward third base. That's why there was no point in running back to thrid base - LaRue was already behind him. He'd have just been running into a tag. There was no chance of a missed throw because a throw wasn't necessary.

You're right that "by the time he stopped and turned around, LaRue was already up and moving toward third base" -- the point that's elluding you, however, is that he should have stopped and turned around before that! Watch the replay - LaRue is running into foul territory to dive for a foul pop, and JD is still running towards home. Why??? Once LaRue caught it he stopped running and turned around. He should have done so prior to that time, in which case LaRue wouldn't have been able to just scamper up and tag him - he would have had to have made the throw.

Ol' No. 2
06-20-2006, 11:05 AM
You're right that "by the time he stopped and turned around, LaRue was already up and moving toward third base" -- the point that's elluding you, however, is that he should have stopped and turned around before that! Watch the replay - LaRue is running into foul territory to dive for a foul pop, and JD is still running towards home. Why??? Once LaRue caught it he stopped running and turned around. He should have done so prior to that time, in which case LaRue wouldn't have been able to just scamper up and tag him - he would have had to have made the throw.The ball was in the air for about a second. He's running flat out toward home plate. You want him to recognize the ball's been popped up, stop, turn around, and run back to third base in ONE SECOND???

Not. Possible.

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 11:14 AM
The ball was in the air for about a second. He's running flat out toward home plate. You want him to recognize the ball's been popped up, stop, turn around, and run back to third base in ONE SECOND???

Not. Possible.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think if LaRue has enough time to get out of his crouch, take several steps and dive, JD can, during that same interval, change his course of direction. Or at least try to do so.

ilsox7
06-20-2006, 11:15 AM
Speaking for myself, I don't mind valid complaints when the Sox win, but this just isn't one. Dye goes charging down the line. Uribe pops up, and who do you go after? Dye, who did his job. You wanted him to go from a dead sprint (it appeared to me he came to a stop within 10 feet of home plate, turn around and dash back 80-odd feet to third base when the damn catcher is standing 5-10 feet away from him.

Unless Dye was born on the planet Krypton, it ain't gonna happen. The catcher ain't gonna make a bad throw to third base with Dye having to run back 80 feet. Dye was a dead duck.

Now if you want to go after Uribe for his horrible bunt attempt, feel free. You won't get any static from me. But as far as I'm concerned:

:threadblows:

Well said. I tore into Juan in the gamethread. It was a horrible attempt. To go after JD is utterly ridiculous for the reasons that everyone else is pointing out.

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 11:16 AM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think if LaRue has enough time to get out of his crouch, take several steps and dive, JD can, during that same interval, change his course of direction. Or at least try to do so.

One difference: LaRue was starting from a dead stop. Dye had to come to a stop and turn around. p (as close as I can get to the Greek letter rho) = m x v. Dye had a lot of p going towards home plate.

ondafarm
06-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Look, I'm as quick as Ozzie to complain about lacksidasical play. Dye is just not guilty of it on this play. It is called a suicide squeeze for good reason, the runner is absolutely dead if the bunter blows it. As the runner you are in full- on sprint, it's hard to stop in less than a few steps. Keep in mind, in a rundown situation, the defenders are trying to get the runner to commit to running one-way at full speed (normally back toward the previous base.)

I've done wind sprints and most guys start slowing at least four steps before reversing direction.

ilsox7
06-20-2006, 11:19 AM
You're wrong. It could have bounced off LaRue's body into fair territory making the ball fair. But other than that...
Incorrect. If the ball would have landed in foul territory it does not matter if it hits a player and bounces into fair territory. It is a foul ball.

Gavin
06-20-2006, 11:21 AM
Look, I'm as quick as Ozzie to complain about lacksidasical play. Dye is just not guilty of it on this play. It is called a suicide squeeze for good reason, the runner is absolutely dead if the bunter blows it. As the runner you are in full- on sprint, it's hard to stop in less than a few steps. Keep in mind, in a rundown situation, the defenders are trying to get the runner to commit to running one-way at full speed (normally back toward the previous base.)

I've done wind sprints and most guys start slowing at least four steps before reversing direction.
Dye is already letting up before LaRue has caught the ball. It's the degree to which he is letting up... he's not coming to a halt or anything, he's just standing up more erect and slowing himself down so he can stop and be tagged.

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Dye is already letting up before LaRue has caught the ball. It's the degree to which he is letting up... he's not coming to a halt or anything, he's just standing up more erect and slowing himself down so he can stop and be tagged.

Um...you have to come to a stop before you change directions. And you have to slow down before you come to a stop. And the faster you are going, the longer it takes to slow down (that nasty p = m x v again). That's why it's called a suicide squeeze.

Gavin
06-20-2006, 11:31 AM
Um...you have to come to a stop before you change directions. And you have to slow down before you come to a stop. And the faster you are going, the longer it takes to slow down (that nasty p = m x v again). That's why it's called a suicide squeeze.

I'm well aware of momentum. There are different ways to a stop though. If you are driving a car at 45 MPH and you suddenly have to stop do you gradually press down on the breaks or do you hit them hard?

Don't get me wrong, I think in the long run this play is completelyn meaningless. Yet if it's a playoff game and in late innings and the same thing occurred I'd hope Dye would at least look like he wasn't standing there waiting to be tagged.

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 11:32 AM
I'm well aware of momentum. There are different ways to a stop though. If you are driving a car at 45 MPH and you suddenly have to stop do you gradually press down on the breaks or do you hit them hard?

Don't get me wrong, I think in the long run this play is completelyn meaningless. Yet if it's a playoff game and in late innings and the same thing occurred I'd hope Dye would at least look like he wasn't standing there waiting to be tagged.

So actually it's all about what it looks like....

Gavin
06-20-2006, 11:38 AM
So actually it's all about what it looks like....

The odds are him trying to turn around would probably not have saved an out. Regardless, nothing in baseball is 100%. Playing with the attitude that there is no point in running towards an almost certain out is Deion-eque. When you let miniscule things slide they tend to not remain miniscule.

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 11:40 AM
The odds are him trying to turn around would probably not have saved an out. Regardless, nothing in baseball is 100%. Playing with the attitude that there is no point in running towards an almost certain out is Deion-eque. When you let miniscule things slide they tend to not remain miniscule.

Unbelievable....

Gavin
06-20-2006, 11:41 AM
Unbelievable....

Right... so when I reveal to you that there are different degrees of changing one's momentum you find something else with which to pick on me. Real mature.

ondafarm
06-20-2006, 11:45 AM
The odds are him trying to turn around would probably not have saved an out. Regardless, nothing in baseball is 100%. Playing with the attitude that there is no point in running towards an almost certain out is Deion-eque. When you let miniscule things slide they tend to not remain miniscule.

No manager in his right mind is going to critisize Dye on that play. Uribe bungled it, badly. At full-on run you'd rather the guy (and Dye is considered a little fragile to begin with) didn't try to hurt himself than do something stupid. Even if Dye does turn around, it's a flip to third and tag the bag, not a tag play on Dye.

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 12:19 PM
No manager in his right mind is going to critisize Dye on that play. Uribe bungled it, badly. At full-on run you'd rather the guy (and Dye is considered a little fragile to begin with) didn't try to hurt himself than do something stupid. Even if Dye does turn around, it's a flip to third and tag the bag, not a tag play on Dye.

Do you think Dye hustled on the play? Do you think he tried his hardest? I think you have to concede that he didn't - I take you and Hal to be arguing that he didn't try his hardest, but its okay because his hardest would have been difficult and likely would have not changed the result. If that's what you're saying, I agree except for the "but its okay" part - I think he should have tried and forced LaRue to make the throw. I don't think that's asking too much.

And that position, by the way, does not suggest that Uribe gets a free pass. But Uribe's screw-up (which, of course, was the main problem) doesn't excuse Dye from trying.

daveeym
06-20-2006, 12:32 PM
Gavin, you're the man!

As the play shows, LaRue was not between Dye and 3rd when he made the catch. And it shows Dye stopping, watching and half-heartedly turning around. He didn't hustle - after watching that play, I defy anyone to contend that he did. I'm not sure I agree with the "absolutely unforgiveable" part, but it was a weak effort, to say the least.As the video shows, dye's coming full speed and is about 8 feet from the plate with his momentum still heading that direction when the catcher hits the ground. This is definitely the stupidest thread in the history of WSI especially with the video evidence. A 5 year old would have had him out by 40 feet at third.

daveeym
06-20-2006, 12:35 PM
Do you think Dye hustled on the play? Do you think he tried his hardest? I think you have to concede that he didn't - I take you and Hal to be arguing that he didn't try his hardest, but its okay because his hardest would have been difficult and likely would have not changed the result. If that's what you're saying, I agree except for the "but its okay" part - I think he should have tried and forced LaRue to make the throw. I don't think that's asking too much.

And that position, by the way, does not suggest that Uribe gets a free pass. But Uribe's screw-up (which, of course, was the main problem) doesn't excuse Dye from trying. Dye should have circled the earth and reversed time for 30 seconds then Uribe could try and get the bunt down again. :rolleyes:

rookie
06-20-2006, 01:40 PM
When I was watching the game on TV I do remember wondering about the failed squeeze. But when you watch the video (and even the Dye-wasn't giving-100% camp have pointed this out) - there wasn't enough time. From the time the ball was hit to the catch was about 3 seconds. And I don't know that much about what players are taught, but I would think that Dye is not supposed to be looking at the play anyways, but at the plate. (Kinda like the AJ into Barrett thing. AJ has no idea if Barrett has the ball or not, he's just going to the plate). Once you commit you go right?

I find it funny that people are saying JD isn't giving 100%. Even if he were in the wrong on this issue, one mistake does not make a bad attitude.

On a side note, I wonder if there is a such thing as playing the "cub card" - when a sox fan tries to strike a low blow at another sox fan by comparing him/her to a cub fan.

ondafarm
06-20-2006, 01:55 PM
When I was watching the game on TV I do remember wondering about the failed squeeze. But when you watch the video (and even the Dye-wasn't giving-100% camp have pointed this out) - there wasn't enough time. From the time the ball was hit to the catch was about 3 seconds. And I don't know that much about what players are taught, but I would think that Dye is not supposed to be looking at the play anyways, but at the plate. (Kinda like the AJ into Barrett thing. AJ has no idea if Barrett has the ball or not, he's just going to the plate). Once you commit you go right?

I find it funny that people are saying JD isn't giving 100%. Even if he were in the wrong on this issue, one mistake does not make a bad attitude.

On a side note, I wonder if there is a such thing as playing the "cub card" - when a sox fan tries to strike a low blow at another sox fan by comparing him/her to a cub fan.

When I came in on a squeeze bunt, I was trained to look at two things, the batter and the bat. You are going full speed and you really are more counting on the contact sound as the bat makes contact with the ball, that's your first checkdown. Your second checkdown is the batter clearing the batter's box because that is where you need to slide. If the on-deck guy is doing his job and coming up and signaling you then you pick him up just when you have to commit to slide or come in standing. LaRue and Uribe did not clear the box very fast and I think they interupted Dye's view of the on-deck guy which was probably the first thing JD knew of trouble. No chance to stop and turn around, you come in like that you know you're a dead duck.

sullythered
06-20-2006, 02:02 PM
Yeah, it's called a "suicide squeeze" for a reason.

hawkjt
06-20-2006, 02:02 PM
look, JD is a full 6'6'' with very long legs. He is also over 30 years old. If you watch him run it is obvious that at this point in his career that it takes some time for him to get going. Once he is at full stride he covers ground well because of those long legs but he is not going to come to a quick stop and reverse field well at all.

He is a very large guy at this point weighing over 240lbs. Not going to too nimble in those types of situations.

ondafarm
06-20-2006, 02:05 PM
Do you think Dye hustled on the play? Do you think he tried his hardest? I think you have to concede that he didn't - I take you and Hal to be arguing that he didn't try his hardest, but its okay because his hardest would have been difficult and likely would have not changed the result. If that's what you're saying, I agree except for the "but its okay" part - I think he should have tried and forced LaRue to make the throw. I don't think that's asking too much.

And that position, by the way, does not suggest that Uribe gets a free pass. But Uribe's screw-up (which, of course, was the main problem) doesn't excuse Dye from trying.

Dye was playing his part absolutely perfectly and hustling every step of the way. No concession at all; no "but it's okay" garbage.

He's in a dead on full-out sprint. The first thing he checks is the batter making contact. It happened so he's on full go. His only other decision is based on Uribe's location you try to shadow the guy unless you pick up the on-deck hitter who should be signaling you. If Uribe goes towards first you slide toward the first base side of the plate, if Uribe bails into foul, you slide toward the foul side. The longer you are undetected visually by the catcher the better your chance of getting in. Dye's first sign of trouble was that Uribe didn't bail out of the box, he was not looking at the play of LaRue, he was looking at the plate. Uribe not bailing caused him to stop. No chance to return to third.

If Dye isn't hustling every step of the way, then he has a chance to turn around and go back. Dye played like a professional.

Moderators can we get this thread locked please?

hold2dibber
06-20-2006, 02:07 PM
As the video shows, dye's coming full speed and is about 8 feet from the plate with his momentum still heading that direction when the catcher hits the ground. This is definitely the stupidest thread in the history of WSI especially with the video evidence. A 5 year old would have had him out by 40 feet at third.

This has to be the stupidest response in the history of human communication! (If we're going to start going down the "insult people who disagree with you" road, I'm upping the ante.)

I agree that the video shows Dye coming towards home (though not at full speed) "when the catcher hits the ground." I've said this about 14 times already on this thread, but I'll try it again to see if it sinks in -- the problem is he should NOT still have been coming towards home when the catcher hit the ground. He already should have been turned around (or at least in the process of doing so). JD made no effort to salvage the play when Uribe popped it up. If you watch the video, it takes 3 seconds from when Uribe made contact to when LaRue catches the ball. If you're telling me that JD couldn't have reversed field in 3 seconds, I think your nuts. But he just kept chugging towards home when absolutely no good could come from chugging home.

TornLabrum
06-20-2006, 02:11 PM
I'm having too much fun watching people arguing about this play with somebody who actually played the game at the professional level to kill this thread. If they are smart, they'll let this thread die a quiet deat after onda's last resopnse.

EDIT: That was before h2d's last response. Closed.

FURTHER EDIT: To the persons who PMed me about closing it: It was the upping of the personal insults that resulted in the thread being closed, not content.