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clarkent
06-14-2006, 11:10 PM
Anyone wonder why Sean Tracey was taken out after getting Blaylock out in the 7th-- the only batter he faced. Right after the camera showed a very angry Ozzie in the dugout.

Why? Farmer said it was because Tracey did not drill Blaylock. If that is true, Mr Tracey you will soon be back in Charlotte

JorgeFabregas
06-14-2006, 11:13 PM
The consensus on the post game show (radio) was that Tracey was brought in to drill the first and only hitter he would face. Ozzie wasn't happy that he didn't.

Vernam
06-14-2006, 11:13 PM
That was the consensus in the game thread, especially after Ozzie was yelling into the bullpen phone after he yanked Tracey. So maybe Cave is in trouble, too, for not conveying the message clearly.

Vernam

Viva Medias B's
06-14-2006, 11:15 PM
The consensus on the post game show (radio) was that Tracey was brought in to drill the first and only hitter he would face. Ozzie wasn't happy that he didn't.

If Tracey did plunk Blalock, wouldn't that have gotten both him and Ozzie in trouble with the MLB police?

clarkent
06-14-2006, 11:16 PM
That was the consensus in the game thread, especially after Ozzie was yelling into the bullpen phone after he yanked Tracey. So maybe Cave is in trouble, too, for not conveying the message clearly.

Vernam

You are right because Cave looked a little shocked after Ozzie was on the phone screaming.

oeo
06-14-2006, 11:17 PM
What the hell is wrong with Padilla? What did AJ ever do to him? First time I've ever even heard of him was win the Sox played the Rangers last weekend. Sorry if somebody **** in your cereal this morning, but there's no reason to drill AJ because of it.

DickAllen72
06-14-2006, 11:17 PM
If Tracey did plunk Blalock, wouldn't that have gotten both him and Ozzie in trouble with the MLB police?

And your point is.....?

oeo
06-14-2006, 11:19 PM
There's only one good thing about the NL having the pitcher bat. No pitcher would think of just plunking somebody twice, because they have to come to the plate and would get a little taste of plunking themselves. **** Padilla, he's on my all time most hated baseball player list.

DickAllen72
06-14-2006, 11:22 PM
What the hell is wrong with Padilla? What did AJ ever do to him? First time I've ever even heard of him was win the Sox played the Rangers last weekend. Sorry if somebody **** in your cereal this morning, but there's no reason to drill AJ because of it.

As I stated in the MLB Is A Joke thread, evryone around the league knows that they can take a free shot at A.J. and MLB will do nothing about it. If the Sox try to protect him they will be punished.

Another thing to note is how after A.J. was drilled twice, and without retaliating in any way, he was loudly booed by the Texas crowd in his subsequent plate appearances.

In the meantime Michelle Barrett, who should be serving time for assault, is playing without consequence a month after his thuggery and is bragging about having a strategy to have his already insufficient suspension reduced.

:angry: :angry: :angry:

Viva Medias B's
06-14-2006, 11:23 PM
And your point is.....?

Would it have been worth doing? Not saying whether it is or is not. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Meanwhile, do we know what Ozzie said postgame?

DickAllen72
06-14-2006, 11:27 PM
Would it have been worth doing? Not saying whether it is or is not. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Meanwhile, do we know what Ozzie said postgame?

Ozzie would be fined and he (or the Sox) would pay it. No big deal. Tracey would be fined also. The Sox would appeal any suspension of Tracey -- the kid already has a history of being wild, throwing pitches into the LH batters box just this past Sunday. Even if he were suspended (which I doubt), it wouldn't be for more than a game or two.

DumpJerry
06-14-2006, 11:30 PM
As I stated in the MLB Is A Joke thread, evryone around the league knows that they can take a free shot at A.J. and MLB will do nothing about it. If the Sox try to protect him they will be punished.

Another thing to note is how after A.J. was drilled twice, and without retaliating in any way, he was loudly booed by the Texas crowd in his subsequent plate appearances.

In the meantime Michelle Barrett, who should be serving time for assault, is playing without consequence a month after his thuggery and is bragging about having a strategy to have his already insufficient suspension reduced.

:angry: :angry: :angry:
Dick, it's worse than that. This morning on ESPN1000, they had callers call in with possible excuses/defenses Barrett could give on his appeal. I was livid. He hit a Chicago player, why are they running to his rescue? If he was facing suspension for slugging a player from a non-Chicago team, fine continue on with the bit, you'll sound like a teenager, but so what?

I could only imagine if it was AJ hitting Barrett.......:angry:

champagne030
06-14-2006, 11:36 PM
Anyone wonder what Sean Tracey was taken out after getting Blaylock out in the 7th-- the only batter he faced. Right after the camera showed a very angry Ozzie in the dugout.

Why? Farmer said it was because Tracey did not drill Blaylock. If that is true, Mr Tracey you will soon be back in Charlotte

I left for softball just after seeing the worst defensive outfield being posted as the Sox lineup.

I understand playing the reserves, but do we need to play them all on the same day? And Mack, flanked by Pods and Gload???:o:

I get home and read this....

"Sean Tracey (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7793/) relieved Vazquez to start the seventh, and the right-hander got leadoff hitter Blalock out on a grounder. But White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen slammed a water bottle to the ground, changed pitchers and then was seen in the dugout barking at Tracey, who pulled the collar of his jersey over his head."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=Aj7e6V90GGM3.lIyt3Gjw4Y5nYcB?gid=260614 113

I didn't see the game, but from the surface it looks like buh, bye Mr. Tracey. He may get a pass because the bottom of the barrel is already empty.

DickAllen72
06-14-2006, 11:40 PM
Dick, it's worse than that. This morning on ESPN1000, they had callers call in with possible excuses/defenses Barrett could give on his appeal. I was livid. He hit a Chicago player, why are they running to his rescue? If he was facing suspension for slugging a player from a non-Chicago team, fine continue on with the bit, you'll sound like a teenager, but so what?

I could only imagine if it was AJ hitting Barrett.......:angry:

Yep. A.J. is treated like garbage by his hometown media. A.J. never punched anyone, charged the mound, got in an opposing runners face for having the nerve to steal a base, etc. But the Chicago media keeps harping on his "reputation" and cites that as grounds for everyone to take a free shot at him.

jabrch
06-14-2006, 11:42 PM
Is there a history between Padilla and AJ?

Vernam
06-14-2006, 11:42 PM
There's only one good thing about the NL having the pitcher bat. No pitcher would think of just plunking somebody twice, because they have to come to the plate and would get a little taste of plunking themselves. **** Padilla, he's on my all time most hated baseball player list.There sure was something infuriating about how he stood out there like he's some kind of bad ass. In the NL, he'd be peeing his pants the next time he went to bat.

Now with the controversy over Tracey, we've got the worst of both worlds: Ozzie will be painted as a hot head, YET WE DIDN'T RETALIATE. :angry: So much for taking the high road.

Vernam

DickAllen72
06-14-2006, 11:46 PM
Ozzie will be painted as a hot head, YET WE DIDN'T RETALIATE. :angry: So much for taking the high road.

Vernam

Exactly! Now Ozzie is going to be accused of being "a headhunter" when the Sox didn't even come close to hitting anyone and our guy was drilled twice!!!:angry:

This has happened many times to the Sox over the past few years. Ozzie gets warned before games the day after Sox players are drilled. :angry: :angry: :angry:

champagne030
06-14-2006, 11:47 PM
Is there a history between Padilla and AJ?

I think the history is **** Showalter and Ozzie......

Uncle_Patrick
06-14-2006, 11:49 PM
Is there a history between Padilla and AJ?

They talked about that on the Comcast postgame show and said that there was nothing that their research could find.

BadBobbyJenks
06-15-2006, 12:20 AM
I know ozzie made that call, but no way should a kid up from AAA be put in this position in what his 3rd outing. You were taking Javy out anyways tell him to do the dirty work(he should have done already) and then he can hit the showers.

I really hope Ozzie doesnt take this too far and get this kid out of here

HawkDJ
06-15-2006, 12:23 AM
I know ozzie made that call, but no way should a kid up from AAA be put in this position in what his 3rd outing. You were taking Javy out anyways tell him to do the dirty work(he should have done already) and then he can hit the showers.

I really hope Ozzie doesnt take this too far and get this kid out of here

I agree, I felt bad in a way seeing Tracey sitting there with his jersey covering his face. I don't know how I'd feel either if I were just making the major leagues and my manager puts me in for the sole purpose of beaning someone. Javy should've done it, no question.

SOecks
06-15-2006, 12:32 AM
I'm right there with you. No reason to make Tracey the scapegoat on this and call him out in front of everyone while the team is playing a listless game with perrennial major leaguers. Nice job going off on the young kid in front of everybody. Way to start his career off on the right foot there. :angry:

HawkDJ
06-15-2006, 12:36 AM
Actually I think unfortunately Ozzie had to scold him in front of everybody to at least send a message to the team about what should've been done instead of just letting it go. It's unfortunate it had to happen to Tracey. It's Ozzie and Javy's fault for not letting Javy do the work.

SOecks
06-15-2006, 12:42 AM
Actually I think unfortunately Ozzie had to scold him in front of everybody to at least send a message to the team about what should've been done instead of just letting it go. It's unfortunate it had to happen to Tracey. It's Ozzie and Javy's fault for not letting Javy do the work.

Yeah I can see that, but I damn well hope this was talked about to the team later. From the outside looking in it seems like Ozzie completely threw Tracey under the bus and that's really messed up. I'm looking forward to how they react tomorrow. We'll get a good idea of what this team is really made of, especially with Buehrle on the mound.

HotelWhiteSox
06-15-2006, 12:44 AM
ESPN highlight clearly showed him yelling at Tracey while Tracey put his shirt over his face. I didn't watch it live, but is it possible that his control just sucked?

Anyway, people get plunked all the time, players have personal lives and do things behind the scenes and have done things in the past, I'm not going to get worked up about anyone getting hit either way

KRS1
06-15-2006, 12:46 AM
Anyone else notice how Sean sort of pumped/shook out his right fist after the first pitch to Hank? As soon as I saw that, I knew he was supposed to bean him. Like someone said maybe Cave relayed the message wrong, possibly said first pitch in his back or nothing. Either way, Sean was asked to do something, and he didnt get the job done. I love Sean, and hate to think this could push him back to Charlotte, as I truely believe he deserves to be here and can get the job done. Hopefully, him and Oz can talk man to man, and Im sure while Sean will get plenty of spit in his face from Ozzie, he is the type of player/competitor who will take everything and ask for more. Seeing the way Sean handled it was great, to me it was the best thing he couldve done, he showed the drive and attitude that got him here, and that will undoubtedly keep him in the majors for a long time.

HawkDJ
06-15-2006, 12:50 AM
In Cave's defense, I'm sure it's difficult to understand Ozzie when he's not too happy. And maybe he had bad reception.:?:

CaptainBallz
06-15-2006, 12:59 AM
In Cave's defense, I'm sure it's difficult to understand Ozzie when he's not too happy. And maybe he had bad reception.:?:

Maybe they need cell phones....

TheDarkGundam
06-15-2006, 01:00 AM
Exactly! Now Ozzie is going to be accused of being "a headhunter" when the Sox didn't even come close to hitting anyone and our guy was drilled twice!!!:angry:

This has happened many times to the Sox over the past few years. Ozzie gets warned before games the day after Sox players are drilled. :angry: :angry: :angry:
I saw a quote from Ozzie regarding this kind of in the Sun-Times the other day. It was regarding the rumors that Barret's supension is being delayed so that he can't play in the Sox-Cubs games (fearing that he would be a target). Ozzie said something along the lines of "If I'm going to get somebody, i'm not going to wait. I'll get him right there." Ozzie's not gonna go after someone that much later.
This whole thing sucks though. AJ and Ozzie are always wrong, no matter what anyone does.
Anyone else think it would be great if Ozzie put AJ on the All-Star Team?

SoxFan78
06-15-2006, 01:06 AM
I wish I got to see this instead of getting creamed in Softball. But if Ozzie told Tracey to bean somebody, Tracey better do it or get ready to get reamed thats for sure.

You listen to your manager, especially the Manager of the year. Im sure Ozzie had a talking to Tracey after the game behind closed doors and everything will be settled.

Everybody has a job to do. If you don't do your job, you face the consequences.

He's a big leaguer now.

chisoxfanatic
06-15-2006, 01:11 AM
Anyone else think it would be great if Ozzie put AJ on the All-Star Team?

Ozzie will do all he can to get as many of his guys on the team.

As for this whole Tracey in hot water stuff, the Sox were already warned, so I wouldn't doubt if some suspensions/fines would've been handed out had Tracey beaned him. That's a Catch 22 that Tracey was in.

MrX
06-15-2006, 01:12 AM
I didn't watch it live, but is it possible that his control just sucked?
No

CHISOXFAN13
06-15-2006, 01:15 AM
I know ozzie made that call, but no way should a kid up from AAA be put in this position in what his 3rd outing. You were taking Javy out anyways tell him to do the dirty work(he should have done already) and then he can hit the showers.

I really hope Ozzie doesnt take this too far and get this kid out of here

I'm not taking the chance Vazquez plunks someone and it escalates into a brawl in which he gets suspended.

Sean Tracey is gone in five days anyway so you send him out there to do the job.

He ****ed up his opportunity to endear himself to his teammates. What a pathetic effort all-around tonight.

JUribe1989
06-15-2006, 01:16 AM
We didn't retaliate against the Twins in 2004 and no one even remembered the Hunter-Burke incident. We began to retaliate last year when Buehrle hit Conine in BAL and Jon Adkins was brought in to hit a Blue Jay at home in August. If Jon Adkins can do that job, then Sean Tracey should be able to also. Ozzie probably overreacted, but that was a situation when we had to retaliate against a dirty inconsistent piece of **** pitcher.

Tom Grieve and Josh Lewin said there was no doubt that Ozzie only brought in Tracey to hit a batter and that "that is one very distraught young pitcher down in that dugout." It's an unfortunate situation because you have to feel bad for Tracey for getting yelled at by Ozzie in front of everyone and then being so upset that he had to cover his face and almost began to cry it looked like.

oeo
06-15-2006, 01:59 AM
We didn't retaliate against the Twins in 2004 and no one even remembered the Hunter-Burke incident. We began to retaliate last year when Buehrle hit Conine in BAL and Jon Adkins was brought in to hit a Blue Jay at home in August. If Jon Adkins can do that job, then Sean Tracey should be able to also. Ozzie probably overreacted, but that was a situation when we had to retaliate against a dirty inconsistent piece of **** pitcher.

Tom Grieve and Josh Lewin said there was no doubt that Ozzie only brought in Tracey to hit a batter and that "that is one very distraught young pitcher down in that dugout." It's an unfortunate situation because you have to feel bad for Tracey for getting yelled at by Ozzie in front of everyone and then being so upset that he had to cover his face and almost began to cry it looked like.
I remember it, and I'm still waiting for him to get plunked...multiple times, just for being a jackass.

getonbckthr
06-15-2006, 02:05 AM
Did I want Tracey to plunk someone.....yes. Ozzie has always said he wants players on his team to stick up for each other. However I hope this doesn't effect Sean for too long. Ideally Mark hits the leadoff man tommorow, benchs will slightly empty, warnings will be given out and that will be the end of everything.

chisoxfanatic
06-15-2006, 02:06 AM
Did I want Tracey to plunk someone.....yes. Ozzie has always said he wants players on his team to stick up for each other. However I hope this doesn't effect Sean for too long. Ideally Mark hits the leadoff man tommorow, benchs will slightly empty, warnings will be given out and that will be the end of everything.

I wouldn't put it past the umps to kick Buehrle out of the game if that were the case...It happened just last year in Baltimore (only later in the game)!

Joosh
06-15-2006, 02:06 AM
According to Scott Merkin, Tracey has been sent back to AAA.

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060614&content_id=1504867&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)


Guillen offered up an interesting explanation of the situation after his team's first loss in this four-game series, pointing out that Tracey is one of the organization's prospects and was not intended to be used in mop-up situations. But a source close to the situation confirmed Tracey had been reassigned to Triple-A Charlotte after the game, backed up by his nearly empty locker.


I never thought I would say this, but I have lost a lot of respect for Guillen. This is a terrible thing to do to a young kid. Who knows how this will affect this kid's career.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 02:07 AM
Did I want Tracey to plunk someone.....yes. Ozzie has always said he wants players on his team to stick up for each other. However I hope this doesn't effect Sean for too long. Ideally Mark hits the leadoff man tommorow, benchs will slightly empty, warnings will be given out and that will be the end of everything.

Uh, no. We do not need Mark suspended. The time to do it was with Tracey. He failed and got sent down. Such is life.

getonbckthr
06-15-2006, 02:12 AM
Uh, no. We do not need Mark suspended. The time to do it was with Tracey. He failed and got sent down. Such is life.
Why would Mark get suspended for hitting someone? It isn't like he is charging the mound, or throwing a cheapshot (Barrett) he is doing what occures every day in baseball.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 02:12 AM
Why would Mark get suspended for hitting someone? It isn't like he is charging the mound, or throwing a cheapshot (Barrett) he is doing what occures every day in baseball.

Because MLB will issue warnings before the game. MLB is stupid and it owuld not be unprecedented to eject/suspend him. It's not worth the risk, IMO.

IlliniSox4Life
06-15-2006, 02:14 AM
According to Scott Merkin, Tracey has been sent back to AAA.

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060614&content_id=1504867&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)



I never thought I would say this, but I have lost a lot of respect for Guillen. This is a terrible thing to do to a young kid. Who knows how this will affect this kid's career.

He better have a damn good reason other than Tracey not hitting Blaylock. If Tracey said something or did something other than screwing up the hbp, fine, but this is aweful timing. I'm withholding judgment as to the reason, but if he did send him down simply for screwing it up, I'm with you in the loss of respect dept.

getonbckthr
06-15-2006, 02:26 AM
Remember what Ozzie had to say about CLee how if he had the power he would have gotten rid of him following the Hunter no hard slide at 2nd situation. The differance between then and Wednesday is Lee at that point was an established key veteran in the middle of a playoff attempt. Sean Tracy is a prospect. He was asked by the manager to do something to defend his teammate. He failed. He should have thrown at him til either A) he hit him or B) he walked him. Just look back to the Cub fight what did the rookie Brian Anderson do? He wasn't involved and he came in fists-a-flying defending his team. Whether it's right or wrong in Brian's case or Sean's case they were in a way similar and they ended with very different results. 1 showed the attitude I will defend my teammates no matter what while the other chose not to.

KRS1
06-15-2006, 02:51 AM
Cant say I agree with this move at all, but I also cant say I have all the facts or the right to question it.

TornLabrum
06-15-2006, 02:57 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.

Nellie_Fox
06-15-2006, 03:09 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.I'm with you. If Tracey is so soft that this ruins him, then he's not tough enough for pro sports.

CosmRoksTHHP
06-15-2006, 03:33 AM
I'm with you. If Tracey is so soft that this ruins him, then he's not tough enough for pro sports.
Plus, how many Triple A pitchers would kill for the opportunity to do what Tracey had the chance to do, not to simply drill a big league ballplayter but to come up and do whatever the ballclub asked him to do.

I agree it's a tough situation all the way around, but we need to make a statement tomorrow. lets not loose respect,were the champs for god sakes.

on a side note, to piss of everyone even more,for what its worth the headline on the Rangers site said "Rangers rebound behind Padilla's poise" :angry:

CLR01
06-15-2006, 03:34 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.


Should have let him start tomorrow and finish the job. Then send him down.

TDog
06-15-2006, 04:02 AM
I agree, I felt bad in a way seeing Tracey sitting there with his jersey covering his face. I don't know how I'd feel either if I were just making the major leagues and my manager puts me in for the sole purpose of beaning someone. Javy should've done it, no question.

If Vazquez intentionally throws at a hitter, he could be suspended, even if there wasn't a warning issued. Vazquez is more important to the team than Tracey and may have been sacrificed. It's unfortunate the Ozzie put him in that position. I am also surprised that Ozzie seems to lack creativity.

If you want to get back at the pitcher who doesn't hit, drag a bunt up the first base line that makes him cover the bag and tear into him spikes first at the bag. If a pitcher threw at Ty Cobb, it wasn't coming up to bat that worried him. That was the way the game used to be played.

Of course, people used to be able to bunt.

rookie
06-15-2006, 04:15 AM
On the one hand, I think that maybe Ozzie was a little bit harsh with the kid...

But on the other hand, if he's still a "kid" then maybe he needs more time at AAA anyways. If your principal/boss wants you to do one thing, and your district/corporate wants you to do another, as long as it's not illegal you are going to do what your prinicpal/boss asks. They hire/fire you and they are the ones that you see on a daily basis. Can you imagine facing your boss/principal when you purposely didn't do what they asked and you've only been working there for a few weeks?

Not only that but AJ is the catcher, which means he's calling pitches for Tracey and the other pitchers. He helps them when they have a tough outing, high fives them when they do a good job, and helps thems do their job well. How awkward would that be to have to catch a guy knowing that he isn't going to have your back, even though you have his - arguing his strikes and whatnot. There's gotta be some trust there.

I don't know, I could be wrong, but even though it appears that Ozzie acted in the heat of the moment, I think he made the right decision. Ozzie's passion is what makes him a great manager. I just hope his "passion" showed with the whole team in that clubhouse after the game as well.

VenturaIsAGod
06-15-2006, 05:35 AM
Not only that but AJ is the catcher, which means he's calling pitches for Tracey and the other pitchers. He helps them when they have a tough outing, high fives them when they do a good job, and helps thems do their job well. How awkward would that be to have to catch a guy knowing that he isn't going to have your back, even though you have his - arguing his strikes and whatnot. There's gotta be some trust there.

I fully agree. Assuming Tracey was out there to hit Blalock, imagine how him throwing a strike or something close would make AJ feel. Sean has possibly lost any respect AJ may have had for him, thus losing the respect of most of his teammates. If this is the case, Ozzie has no choice but to send him down. That being said, I feel bad for the kid no matter what happened.

Trav
06-15-2006, 06:03 AM
I fully agree. Assuming Tracey was out there to hit Blalock, imagine how him throwing a strike or something close would make AJ feel. Sean has possibly lost any respect AJ may have had for him, thus losing the respect of most of his teammates. If this is the case, Ozzie has no choice but to send him down. That being said, I feel bad for the kid no matter what happened.

Why do you feel bad for the kid? Because he was in tears on the bench? :whiner:

CanBuehrleWait
06-15-2006, 06:10 AM
What needed to be said has been said many a time. Tracey had a job to do and he did not do it. Protect your teamate kid. No? Well you Gawn!

Thome25
06-15-2006, 07:31 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.

I agree with that. Tracey was the perfect and only candidate to hit someone. I mean if someone was going to get suspended, it had to be Tracey. With the shape our bullpen is in who is ozzie supposed to put in there?! McCarthy? Cotts? We can't afford to lose those guys right now.

For those of you who said you lost respect for Ozzie. That is a JOKE. If anything you should have MORE respect for Ozzie for trying to protect one of his players.:angry:

Tracey is the one who messed up. He was sent out there to do the "old school" thing and hit Blaylock. He totally crapped his pants when the only thing he had to do was drill someone.:angry:

I mean is his control that bad that when all he has to do is hit someone and he can't even do that? Ozzie shoulda told him to throw it over the plate and Tracey probably woulda hit someone.

This team has a family type atmosphere. If you're going to be a player on the Chicago White Sox you have to "have each other's backs" ala BA and Pods in the Flubs brawl.

To me Tracey broke one of the "Golden Rules" on this team. He was sent out there to back up one of his teammates and couldn't get the job done. You saw how much credit Pods and BA got for backing AJ up against the Flubs.
How is Tracey going to be recieved in the clubhouse now that he pulled this?

If the Sox haven't already sent Tracey down, I hope they do. and I have MORE respect for Ozzie now.

giganticHead
06-15-2006, 08:28 AM
I agree with that. Tracey was the perfect and only candidate to hit someone. I mean if someone was going to get suspended, it had to be Tracey. With the shape our bullpen is in who is ozzie supposed to put in there?! McCarthy? Cotts? We can't afford to lose those guys right now.

For those of you who said you lost respect for Ozzie. That is a JOKE. If anything you should have MORE respect for Ozzie for trying to protect one of his players.:angry:

Tracey is the one who messed up. He was sent out there to do the "old school" thing and hit Blaylock. He totally crapped his pants when the only thing he had to do was drill someone.:angry:

I mean is his control that bad that when all he has to do is hit someone and he can't even do that? Ozzie shoulda told him to throw it over the plate and Tracey probably woulda hit someone.

This team has a family type atmosphere. If you're going to be a player on the Chicago White Sox you have to "have each other's backs" ala BA and Pods in the Flubs brawl.

To me Tracey broke one of the "Golden Rules" on this team. He was sent out there to back up one of his teammates and couldn't get the job done. You saw how much credit Pods and BA got for backing AJ up against the Flubs.
How is Tracey going to be recieved in the clubhouse now that he pulled this?

If the Sox haven't already sent Tracey down, I hope they do. and I have MORE respect for Ozzie now.

How is AJ and the team going to feel about Vasquez? Buehrle would have hit him.
Vasquez needed to stand up for his catcher and his team not the guy who has been there for two seconds.

That being said, either only the Rangers or nobody should have gotten a warning. THAT was the big screw up.

Minnie Me
06-15-2006, 08:30 AM
What needed to be said has been said many a time. Tracey had a job to do and he did not do it. Protect your teamate kid. No? Well you Gawn!

I get the feeling this is some sort of turning point for the team. Ozzie has to be disturbed about the play of the team this year. Sox are losing games they should win, the defense and pitching has been spotty and although the win/loss record still looks pretty good, the Sox stil appear to be struggling. AJ and Burhle are the leaders of this team.

Tonights game is one of the most important of this young season.

bayzbol44
06-15-2006, 08:30 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.

BRAVO!!!!

INSox56
06-15-2006, 08:34 AM
I don't believe that we should be in this position anyway. It's horse**** that these umpires warn both benches when **** like this happens. This is not baseball...it's turning into little league with more fans.

Either way, it was evidently shown on the Texas broadcast of Ozzie SCREAMING at someone in the dugout, not just over the phone. And them showing Tracey with head in hands. And as we know now, he's more than likely sent down.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 08:39 AM
Vasquez needed to stand up for his catcher and his team not the guy who has been there for two seconds.

Vasquez hasn't been here that long. Javier's only been a White Sox player for a few months now.

I do agree with you though, the mistake was by the umpire for not warning the rangers/tossing padilla.

The BIGGEST mistake was by Tracey for not doing his job by hitting blaylock.

Someone on the Rangers had better get drilled tonite. The White Sox need to send a message to the Rangers, the rest of baseball, and the umpires that they're not putting up with this stuff anymore.

This ends tonite.:angry:

HawkDJ
06-15-2006, 08:43 AM
I'm still sticking by the fact that Vazquez should've hit him. See: yesterday's Yankees-Indians game. Posada was hit by a pitch, causing the umps to warn both benches even though the Yanks didnt hit anyone. Later in the game Randy Johnson hits an Indian, is ejected, words are exchanged and that's that. He won't be suspended. That's how it should'v been in Texas last night. If we did happen to lose Javy for 5 games? Well, he hasn't exactly been lights out.

Cambridge
06-15-2006, 08:50 AM
Someone on the Rangers had better get drilled tonite. The White Sox need to send a message to the Rangers, the rest of baseball, and the umpires that they're not putting up with this stuff anymore.

This ends tonite.:angry:

The Rangers are obviously aware of what happened with Guillen (reportedly) ordering the kid to throw at someone. That alone should have them wary in the batter's box, which is the point of coming inside in the first place. Throwing at someone tonight will only risk suspensions and injury.

Meanwhile, I assume the above poster was joking when he said the White Sox should "send a message to the umpires."

Hitmen77
06-15-2006, 08:53 AM
- First I can't believe that the umps didn't eject Padilla after the 2nd plunking. What the heck's going on? Why doesn't Padilla and Showalter get an automatic ejection after hitting the same player twice? I hope the Sox raise hell to MLB over this. This is ridiculous - other teams get to blantantly plunk our guys TWICE without ANY punishment and the umps warn the Sox and we face suspensions if we hit one guy? Unreal.

- Second, why didn't Javy just plunk someone on Texas? We were losing anyway and he wasn't long for the game. Randy Johnson did it yesterday. Apparently the Yankees aren't worried about having their big guys to the job.

- Third, yeah Tracey screwed up, but I feel bad for the guy. The whole scene with him looked like something out of the Bad News Bears.

ChiSoxFan7
06-15-2006, 08:56 AM
this morning on the radio i heard that he's back down at AAA b/c ozzie was so irate with him. anyone know who got called up?



and i was starting to like this kid...


then again, if he won't defend his team maybe he shouldn't be a part of the organzation anymore.

harwar
06-15-2006, 09:01 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.
Ozzie is also old school.He plays the game the way it used to be played.Thats why i love the guy.
The kid didn't have the guts to do what he was sent up there to do so he got what he deserved.
What Tom Hanks said in that movie("theres' no crying in baseball") may be funny but it was also true.You used to have to be tough to play in the big leagues.
I hope Ozzie doesn't change.
Also,i don't know,but it seems to me that A.J. is the 2nd most hated baseball player after Bonds and for the life of me i don't understand why.
I get a lot of other teams feeds with the extra-innings package and most(if not all)tv announcers were on A.J.s side after the Barrett thing.
The fans,however,are all booing him because they think they are supposed too even though i doubt they know why they are doing it.

white sox bill
06-15-2006, 09:02 AM
Don't know if anyone brought this up yet, but maybe Oz wanted a "nobody" or in other words, a fringe major leaguer to do the dirty work. Tracey serving a suspension isn't near as bad as one of our star pitchers serving.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 09:04 AM
Meanwhile, I assume the above poster was joking when he said the White Sox should "send a message to the umpires."

I meant it when I said that. They should send a message to the umpires by drilling someone every time we get drilled.

That way the umpires will realize that it's meaningless to warn Ozzie and not the other team everytime WE get hit.

They might warn the other team or start tossing douche bags like Padilla more often if they realize that these situations WILL
escalate EVERY TIME one of our guys gets drilled.

That's what I meant by "send a message to the umpires."

Thome25
06-15-2006, 09:10 AM
Third, yeah Tracey screwed up, but I feel bad for the guy. The whole scene with him looked like something out of the Bad News Bears.


I Love Ozzie. He is a perfect Chicago-style manager. Did that Tracey situation remind anyone of the DA COACH in 1992 when he ripped Harbaugh a new one for calling that audible and then throwing that interception against Minnesota?

Guess Tracey shouldn't have "audibled" Guillen's call to drill Blaylock.:tongue:

Sorry, getting off the subject just a little bit.:redneck

harwar
06-15-2006, 09:10 AM
I would like to see A.J. come to the plate tonight wearing every legal form of protection(double ears flaps,2 shin guards,largest elbow pads available,on both arms...) that a guy can get away with as a silent protest.
If he had gone to the mound after the 2nd plunking(like he probably should have)MLB and all the fans would have buried him.

dickallen15
06-15-2006, 09:13 AM
Vazquez should have hit someone after the first AJ beaning, and there would have been no additional problems. It appears Tracey's failure to hit Blaylock will cost him a trip back to Charlotte. I hope Ozzie doesn't say he's not a headhunter anymore. I can't recall a guy getting demoted for not beaning an opponent.

salty99
06-15-2006, 09:18 AM
this morning on the radio i heard that he's back down at AAA b/c ozzie was so irate with him. anyone know who got called up?
.

From Scott Merkin's wrapup of the game

"But a source close to the situation confirmed Tracey had been reassigned to Triple-A Charlotte after the game, backed up by his nearly empty locker."

On the Score this morning they had Don Cooper who sounded like an idiot pretending he didn't know what was going on. Javier should have drilled the next batter, end of story.

giganticHead
06-15-2006, 09:22 AM
It's not like Vasquez has had any problems hitting anyone before.
Isn't he like first or second in the league in HBP?

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 09:27 AM
Uh, no. We do not need Mark suspended. The time to do it was with Tracey. He failed and got sent down. Such is life.

Tracey had no business being put in that situation. This is on Javy and no one else. I lost a lot of respect for Ozzie because of this nonsense.

champagne030
06-15-2006, 09:28 AM
I hope Ozzie doesn't say he's not a headhunter anymore. I can't recall a guy getting demoted for not beaning an opponent.

He's not a headhunter if he's responding to us getting drilled twice. Plenty of guys get demoted for not following a managers instructions. Actually, they are usually traded away or released.

Chisox003
06-15-2006, 09:28 AM
On the Score this morning they had Don Cooper who sounded like an idiot pretending he didn't know what was going on. Javier should have drilled the next batter, end of story.
If not the next batter, why not let him start the 7th inning and drill Blalock himself?

This is a ****ing mess, and that was on Vazquez/Ozzie. Tracey shouldn't be catching the heat for their dumb decision.

I know Ozzie knows a whole lot more than we do about the situation, and I'm not questioning that. But if ever there was a time I disagreed with one of his decisions, it's now. I hope Tracey dominates AAA and gets back up here, we need an arm.

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 09:28 AM
I fully agree. Assuming Tracey was out there to hit Blalock, imagine how him throwing a strike or something close would make AJ feel. Sean has possibly lost any respect AJ may have had for him, thus losing the respect of most of his teammates. If this is the case, Ozzie has no choice but to send him down. That being said, I feel bad for the kid no matter what happened.

Um, then what about the team's respect for Javy?

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 09:29 AM
Tracey had no business being put in that situation. This is on Javy and no one else. I lost a lot of respect for Ozzie because of this nonsense.

I disagree. For one reason or another, the Sox did not want Javy to retaliate. If they had wanted him to, he would have been sent out there to do it. They chose Tracey to do the job and he failed.

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 09:31 AM
I'm still sticking by the fact that Vazquez should've hit him. See: yesterday's Yankees-Indians game. Posada was hit by a pitch, causing the umps to warn both benches even though the Yanks didnt hit anyone. Later in the game Randy Johnson hits an Indian, is ejected, words are exchanged and that's that. He won't be suspended. That's how it should'v been in Texas last night. If we did happen to lose Javy for 5 games? Well, he hasn't exactly been lights out.

Exactly. It was gutless by Javy to keep serving up gopher balls after his catcher gets nailed TWICE. He did not even brush anyone off the plate. Contrast that to Randy Johnson's reaction, and consider that he reportedly dislikes Posada, and you get a good picture of Javy's character. Gutless.

salty99
06-15-2006, 09:32 AM
Especially if you read Ozzie's lame remarks after the game about why he pulled Tracey after one batter. Paraphrasing: I was mad because I messed up and didn't make the decision whether to keep Javy in or bring in a bullpen pitcher in time, so I had to use Tracey because he was warming up. This kid is a prospect and I don;t want to use him in blowouts. Montero wasn't "hot" yet until after the first batter.

Chisox003
06-15-2006, 09:32 AM
I disagree. For one reason or another, the Sox did not want Javy to retaliate. If they had wanted him to, he would have been sent out there to do it. They chose Tracey to do the job and he failed.
That's the other side of the coin, which has to be considered.

Like I said, Ozzie knows a helluva lot more than we do about what's going on in the clubhouse, with the players, consequences etc. Tracey was sent out to do a job, and he didn't get it done. Simple.

This is still a ****ing mess, either way.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 09:33 AM
i think the blame can be placed on all three of them. Ozzie for not keeping Vazquez in for one more partial inning simply to drill the hell out of someone. Vazquez for not doing just that even on his own. And Tracey for not doing what he was supposed to...I don't think he didn't obey ozzie, I think he just simply couldn't hit him, nerves, wildness, whatever. Why he didn't throw more than just one pitch at Blalock is beyond me.

champagne030
06-15-2006, 09:33 AM
Tracey had no business being put in that situation. This is on Javy and no one else. I lost a lot of respect for Ozzie because of this nonsense.

He's the perfect guy for the situation - mop up guy. Javy probably doesn't get suspended if he hits someone and they simply take their base. However, if the plunking results in the batter charging the mound then a suspension would result.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 09:33 AM
Exactly. It was gutless by Javy to keep serving up gopher balls after his catcher gets nailed TWICE. He did not even brush anyone off the plate. Contrast that to Randy Johnson's reaction, and consider that he reportedly dislikes Posada, and you get a good picture of Javy's character. Gutless.

When did they put you into the clubhouse or dugout? How do you know if they specifically told Javy not to retaliate for fear of a suspension? Maybe he wanted to, but was told not to. No one here has any clue as to the circumstances as they took place in the Sox dugout. To make statements that Javy is gutless based on knowing 10% of the facts is not smart.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 09:36 AM
Um, then what about the team's respect for Javy?

There should be no disrespect for Javy or Ozzie. We are in the middle of a pennant race. I would rather get a AAA pitcher tossed and/or suspended rather that one of our starters.

Granted, Vasquez hasn't been lights out lately but, we still can't afford to lose one of our starters for the simple fact that Garland hasn't been lights out either and Garcia got shelled in his last start.

So right now I'd say we could use all of the experienced pitching we could get. Getting Javy tossed is not a smart idea right now.

He may very well have gotten suspended too. Again I'd rather put the AAA pticher out there to show what he's made of, stand up for his teammates, and become "part of the family" by hitting Blaylock.

Adkins did it last year Why can't Tracey?! Because he showed what he's made of and has no place on this team.

Dan Mega
06-15-2006, 09:37 AM
Ozzie shouldn't have put a rookie in that situation to nail a guy. On top of that, he shouldn't have screamed at him for not hitting him.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2006, 09:37 AM
I may get reamed for this, but I think Ozzie was just plain stupid to order Tracey to bean Blalock after the warning had been issued.

Ozzie's a good manager and he's a good fit for this team and its fans. But at times he's also a hothead who lets his emotions dictate his decisions. He also does boneheaded things at times, as evidenced by the fact that as a player he fell for the "hidden ball" trick twice.

In this case Ozzie was a hothead and bonehead.

The umps were stupid and wrong to warn the Sox bench after AJ got beaned for the second time. This is not the first time this has happened to the Sox; I distinctly remember Oakland getting away with lots of beanings last year and the Sox getting warned.

Still, Ozzie was stupid and wrong to try to waste a reliever on a stupid payback beaning. The Sox bullpen already is short-handed. If Tracey were to be suspended, he'd have to serve it on the MLB roster, leaving the Sox a player short at some time this year. They already will be a player short for five games when Anderson serves his suspension.

Instead of dishing out revenge with a stupid beanball war, how about motivating your hitters to punish the other team by, oh, I don't know, HITTING THE ****ING BASEBALL instead of crapping their pants against a career NL journeyman who according to his own pitching coach was throwing nothing but fastballs?

Padilla did it with fastballs. Lots of fastballs. Pitching coach Mark Connor said Padilla's first 50 pitches were either two-seam or four-seam fastballs.

I'm convinced that Ozzie hasn't buried the hatchet with Showalter, and instead the two managers are involved in a contest to prove who has the bigger "manhood." Ozzie needs to realize that the bigger, better man doesn't need to screw around with stupid beanball wars that only make things worse for your team.

Yeah, the Sox hitters sucked last night. So let's blame Sean Tracey.
:kukoo:

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 09:39 AM
When did they put you into the clubhouse or dugout? How do you know if they specifically told Javy not to retaliate for fear of a suspension? Maybe he wanted to, but was told not to. No one here has any clue as to the circumstances as they took place in the Sox dugout. To make statements that Javy is gutless based on knowing 10% of the facts is not smart.

Were you watching the same game? Did you see A.J. repeatedly looking into the dugout after the second beaning, and Hawk & D.J. (and Farmer) wondering what the **** is going on? If Javy needs written instructions from the bench to plunk an opposing batter after his catcher gets nailed TWICE on the first pitch, then he may need to find a new team soon. This is a joke.

By the way, what's with the "it's not smart" comment? There's no need to get into a pissing match over this.

1917
06-15-2006, 09:40 AM
Javy throws at him, he is kicked out of the game and probably faces a 2 suspension...I know we were out of it, but I thinkthe possibility of him being suspended was too much

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 09:41 AM
Were you watching the same game? Did you see A.J. repeatedly looking into the dugout after the second beaning, and Hawk & D.J. (and Farmer) wondering what the **** is going on? If Javy needs written instructions from the bench to plunk an opposing batter after his catcher gets nailed TWICE on the first pitch, then he may need to find a new team soon. This is a joke.

By the way, what's with the "it's not smart" comment? There's no need to get into a pissing match over this.

No one is getting in a pissing match. I am simply saying to call someone gutless when you have no clue as to the vast majority of the facts surrounding the case is not a smart thing to do. Like it or not, Ozzie made the call as to who was supposed to get some revenge. That person was not Javy.

champagne030
06-15-2006, 09:41 AM
I may get reamed for this, but I think Ozzie was just plain stupid to order Tracey to bean Blalock after the warning had been issued.

Ozzie's a good manager and he's a good fit for this team and its fans. But at times he's also a hothead who lets his emotions dictate his decisions. He also does boneheaded things at times, as evidenced by the fact that as a player he fell for the "hidden ball" trick twice.

In this case Ozzie was a hothead and bonehead.

The umps were stupid and wrong to warn the Sox bench after AJ got beaned for the second time. This is not the first time this has happened to the Sox; I distinctly remember Oakland getting away with lots of beanings last year and the Sox getting warned.

Still, Ozzie was stupid and wrong to try to waste a reliever on a stupid payback beaning. The Sox bullpen already is short-handed. If Tracey were to be suspended, he'd have to serve it on the MLB roster, leaving the Sox a player short at some time this year. They already will be a player short for five games when Anderson serves his suspension.

Instead of dishing out revenge with a stupid beanball war, how about motivating your hitters to punish the other team by, oh, I don't know, HITTING THE ****ING BASEBALL instead of crapping their pants against a career NL journeyman who according to his own pitching coach was throwing nothing but fastballs?



I'm convinced that Ozzie hasn't buried the hatchet with Showalter, and instead the two managers are involved in a contest to prove who has the bigger "manhood." Ozzie needs to realize that the bigger, better man doesn't need to screw around with stupid beanball wars that only make things worse for your team.

Yeah, the Sox hitters sucked last night. So let's blame Sean Tracey.
:kukoo:

It's called protecting your teammate.

thepaulbowski
06-15-2006, 09:48 AM
Were you watching the same game? Did you see A.J. repeatedly looking into the dugout after the second beaning, and Hawk & D.J. (and Farmer) wondering what the **** is going on? If Javy needs written instructions from the bench to plunk an opposing batter after his catcher gets nailed TWICE on the first pitch, then he may need to find a new team soon. This is a joke.

By the way, what's with the "it's not smart" comment? There's no need to get into a pissing match over this.

"It's not smart" to have one of you main guys in the rotation plunk somebody get kicked out of the game and ruin your bullpen for the rest of the week. It is smart to have a guy relegated to mop up duty bean somebody and then get kicked out. The problem is the mop up guy couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and blew it.

SoxandtheCityTee
06-15-2006, 09:48 AM
I hope Ozzie doesn't say he's not a headhunter anymore. I can't recall a guy getting demoted for not beaning an opponent.

There is a huge difference between hitting someone and intentionally hitting them in the head, which is what "beaning" is. There is no evidence that Ozzie told Tracey to hit anyone in the head.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 09:49 AM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.

Agreed. In fact, I would have lost respect for Ozzie had he not been sent down. THAT sends the wrong message.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 09:50 AM
I may get reamed for this, but I think Ozzie was just plain stupid to order Tracey to bean Blalock after the warning had been issued.

Ozzie's a good manager and he's a good fit for this team and its fans. But at times he's also a hothead who lets his emotions dictate his decisions. He also does boneheaded things at times, as evidenced by the fact that as a player he fell for the "hidden ball" trick twice.

In this case Ozzie was a hothead and bonehead.

The umps were stupid and wrong to warn the Sox bench after AJ got beaned for the second time. This is not the first time this has happened to the Sox; I distinctly remember Oakland getting away with lots of beanings last year and the Sox getting warned.

Still, Ozzie was stupid and wrong to try to waste a reliever on a stupid payback beaning. The Sox bullpen already is short-handed. If Tracey were to be suspended, he'd have to serve it on the MLB roster, leaving the Sox a player short at some time this year. They already will be a player short for five games when Anderson serves his suspension.

Instead of dishing out revenge with a stupid beanball war, how about motivating your hitters to punish the other team by, oh, I don't know, HITTING THE ****ING BASEBALL instead of crapping their pants against a career NL journeyman who according to his own pitching coach was throwing nothing but fastballs?



I'm convinced that Ozzie hasn't buried the hatchet with Showalter, and instead the two managers are involved in a contest to prove who has the bigger "manhood." Ozzie needs to realize that the bigger, better man doesn't need to screw around with stupid beanball wars that only make things worse for your team.

Yeah, the Sox hitters sucked last night. So let's blame Sean Tracey.
:kukoo:


Nobody was blaming Tracey for us losing the ballgame. We'd be having the same conversation if the Sox had won or lost the ball game.

It's all about respect. Ozzie's sick of being disrespected, AJ's sick of being disrespected. We as fans are sick of seeing our team getting disrespected.

It seems like teams have a bigger chip on their shoulders when it comes to playing us now that we're the WORLD CHAMPIONS.

This is baseball. There are certain "unwritten rules" that you follow when things like this happen. One of them is: If someone drills your guy intentionally you drill 'em back. This has been going on from the playground all the way up to MLB.

OZZIE WAS NOT BEING A HOTHEAD/BONEHEAD. HE WAS BEING A GOOD "OLD SCHOOL" MANAGER.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 09:53 AM
I'm just annoyed that Ozzie waited until it was 6-0 in the 6th before calling for the bean.

Our pals over at northsidebaseball are calling Ozzie "classless" for chewing out the rookie on the bench.

:rolleyes:

thepaulbowski
06-15-2006, 09:54 AM
I may get reamed for this, but I think Ozzie was just plain stupid to order Tracey to bean Blalock after the warning had been issued.

Ozzie's a good manager and he's a good fit for this team and its fans. But at times he's also a hothead who lets his emotions dictate his decisions. He also does boneheaded things at times, as evidenced by the fact that as a player he fell for the "hidden ball" trick twice.

In this case Ozzie was a hothead and bonehead.

The umps were stupid and wrong to warn the Sox bench after AJ got beaned for the second time. This is not the first time this has happened to the Sox; I distinctly remember Oakland getting away with lots of beanings last year and the Sox getting warned.

Still, Ozzie was stupid and wrong to try to waste a reliever on a stupid payback beaning. The Sox bullpen already is short-handed. If Tracey were to be suspended, he'd have to serve it on the MLB roster, leaving the Sox a player short at some time this year. They already will be a player short for five games when Anderson serves his suspension.

Instead of dishing out revenge with a stupid beanball war, how about motivating your hitters to punish the other team by, oh, I don't know, HITTING THE ****ING BASEBALL instead of crapping their pants against a career NL journeyman who according to his own pitching coach was throwing nothing but fastballs?



I'm convinced that Ozzie hasn't buried the hatchet with Showalter, and instead the two managers are involved in a contest to prove who has the bigger "manhood." Ozzie needs to realize that the bigger, better man doesn't need to screw around with stupid beanball wars that only make things worse for your team.

Yeah, the Sox hitters sucked last night. So let's blame Sean Tracey.
:kukoo:

Ozzie was trying to play the game the way it should be played.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 09:54 AM
Javy throws at him, he is kicked out of the game and probably faces a 2 suspension...I know we were out of it, but I thinkthe possibility of him being suspended was too much

If Javy gets a suspension from that, then MLB is going to have some problems on their hands because you can't suspend one person for doing one thing and NOT do ANYTHING to Randy Johnson for doing the same exact thing. That wouldn't have happened.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 09:55 AM
There is a huge difference between hitting someone and intentionally hitting them in the head, which is what "beaning" is. There is no evidence that Ozzie told Tracey to hit anyone in the head.

I've never heard anyone distinguish "beaning" as specifically meaning hitting someone in the head.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 09:56 AM
If Javy gets a suspension from that, then MLB is going to have some problems on their hands because you can't suspend one person for doing one thing and NOT do ANYTHING to Randy Johnson for doing the same exact thing. That wouldn't have happened.

But if they would have charged the mound, Javy would get a suspension. It's just the way MLB works. Is it dumb? Yes. But it's how the game is played these days.

1917
06-15-2006, 09:57 AM
Remember the Baltimore game last year? I bet Bueherle get's someone

Martinigirl
06-15-2006, 09:57 AM
According to Scott Merkin, Tracey has been sent back to AAA.

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060614&content_id=1504867&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)



I never thought I would say this, but I have lost a lot of respect for Guillen. This is a terrible thing to do to a young kid. Who knows how this will affect this kid's career.

I have to agree with you. I understand being mad in the heat of the moment, but to send him down seems more than a little extreme. And the fact that he was doing reasonably well in a shakey bullpen also makes the move look shortsighted and vindictive.

Cambridge
06-15-2006, 09:57 AM
Our pals over at northsidebaseball are calling Ozzie "classless" for chewing out the rookie on the bench.


People all over the country are calling him classless. Regardless of how you view the rest of the situation, those things are done behind closed doors. It's called respecting your players.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 09:58 AM
People all over the country are calling him classless. Regardless of how you view the rest of the situation, those things are done behind closed doors. It's called respecting your players.

He should have pulled him into the tunnel, out of sight.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 09:59 AM
People all over the country are calling him classless. Regardless of how you view the rest of the situation, those things are done behind closed doors. It's called respecting your players.

I'm thinking Ozzie wanted the other players to see it as well. Looks like they were looking at something else.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2006, 10:01 AM
Nobody was blaming Tracey for us losing the ballgame. We'd be having the same conversation if the Sox had won or lost the ball game.

It's all about respect. Ozzie's sick of being disrespected, AJ's sick of being disrespected. We as fans are sick of seeing our team getting disrespected.

It seems like teams have a bigger chip on their shoulders when it comes to playing us now that we're the WORLD CHAMPIONS.

This is baseball. There are certain "unwritten rules" that you follow when things like this happen. One of them is: If someone drills your guy intentionally you drill 'em back. This has been going on from the playground all the way up to MLB.

OZZIE WAS NOT BEING A HOTHEAD/BONEHEAD. HE WAS BEING A GOOD "OLD SCHOOL" MANAGER.

The opposing pitcher was throwing fastballs all night. *** is the matter with pounding those fastballs? (Pods, Iguchi and Thome, I'm talking about you and your zero-for-10 line...) *** is the problem with knocking in AJ when he's been hit? (Crede, Gload and Cintron, I'm talking about you...) Padilla determined he was able to peg AJ the second time when it was clear to him and the rest of the world that was watching that the Sox offfense was inept, impotent and incompetent last night. If AJ had crossed home plate after the first HBP, there never would have been a second HBP.

And for those who think it's all about comparing the size of one's genitals, how about if Javier pegs a Ranger batter in the half-inning IMMEDIATELY AFTER AJ got hit the first time?
:kukoo:

If you want to be respected, then go out and play your A-game, score some runs and win.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 10:01 AM
People all over the country are calling him classless. Regardless of how you view the rest of the situation, those things are done behind closed doors. It's called respecting your players.

No, it's called respecting your manager. Tracey was sent out to do a particular job. He used his own judgment over that of his manager. Ozzie has been in the game for 20+ years and Tracey has been in the bigs 3 games. Listen to your manager.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:03 AM
People all over the country are calling him classless. Regardless of how you view the rest of the situation, those things are done behind closed doors. It's called respecting your players.


If today's players can't handle getting chewed out by their manager then they need to go home. Especially with the amount of money they make. I'd get chewed out by Ozzie any day for that kind of money.

If what your saying is true then today's players wouldn't last for a second in the "old school MLB" from decades ago.

If you're a man and you screwed up then sit there and take it like a man when you're getting ripped.

I'm not making any excuses for these ballplayers. They're grown men for God's sake. They don't need to be taken aside by the hand like a little kid and scolded behind closed doors.

wdelaney72
06-15-2006, 10:03 AM
1. Javy should've done it without being asked.
THAT BEING SAID
2. Tracey failed to obey an order. Plain and simple. He gets no sympathy from me.

The beanings should be over. That ship has sailed. The best way to send a message is to go out there and win today. Buck can take all the pride and joy he wants in having plunked more guys, Ozzie and the Sox can take all the pride and joy that comes with WINNING which is all that matters.

dickallen15
06-15-2006, 10:04 AM
Javy throws at him, he is kicked out of the game and probably faces a 2 suspension...I know we were out of it, but I thinkthe possibility of him being suspended was too much

They were sure he was throwing at AJ the first time. If Vazquez throws at one of their players then, before the warning, the incident would have been over. Maybe Tracey had specific instructions to hit Blaylock. For whatever reason it didn't happen. To me its no different than asking a guy to bunt, and he can't get the job done, or having someone miss a sign. It happens. It isn't grounds for demotion. The only way I see it justified is if they were planning on sending him down anyway. Vazquez had ample opportunity to protect his players, and he didn't do it. Montero didn't plunk anyone either. Why do they get a pass?

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 10:05 AM
1. Javy should've done it without being asked.
THAT BEING SAID


Not if your boss comes to you and specifically tells you not to do anything. No one knows what happened beyond the fact that Ozzie wanted Tracey to take care of business and he didn't do his job.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 10:05 AM
The opposing pitcher was throwing fastballs all night. *** is the matter with pounding those fastballs? (Pods, Iguchi and Thome, I'm talking about you and your zero-for-10 line...) *** is the problem with knocking in AJ when he's been hit? (Crede, Gload and Cintron, I'm talking about you...) Padilla determined he was able to peg AJ the second time when it was clear to him and the rest of the world that was watching that the Sox offfense was inept, impotent and incompetent last night. If AJ had crossed home plate after the first HBP, there never would have been a second HBP.

And for those who think it's all about comparing the size of one's genitals, how about if Javier pegs a Ranger batter in the half-inning IMMEDIATELY AFTER AJ got hit the first time?
:kukoo:

If you want to be respected, then go out and play your A-game, score some runs and win.

Completely clueless post. They obviously didn't have their "A" game last night so you call out the players on the team for not "knocking in AJ when he was hit"... Tracey was told to plunk someone. He used his judgment over that of his manager. Don't blame Pods, Iguchi, Thome, etc. for that. Sheesh.... :bs:

INSox56
06-15-2006, 10:06 AM
But if they would have charged the mound, Javy would get a suspension. It's just the way MLB works. Is it dumb? Yes. But it's how the game is played these days.

First off, Eduardo perez in the Johnson situation came pretty close to charging the mound and nothing. Secondly, I'd say the majority of Texas players aren't hotheads, they seem like good guys. So I don't think that, after OUR guy had been plunked, they'd charge the mound, I think they'd just kind of shrug and say, well **** I guess we deserved that... But I know it's how the game is played, and it is bull****.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:06 AM
If you want to be respected, then go out and play your A-game, score some runs and win.

Last time I checked the White Sox do play their A-game. Check their W-L record. Sometimes it's about more than what's in the Win column or batting averages or any other stats for that matter.

It's a game and sometimes you need to command respect in it in other ways.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 10:08 AM
First off, Eduardo perez in the Johnson situation came pretty close to charging the mound and nothing. Secondly, I'd say the majority of Texas players aren't hotheads, they seem like good guys. So I don't think that, after OUR guy had been plunked, they'd charge the mound, I think they'd just kind of shrug and say, well **** I guess we deserved that... But I know it's how the game is played, and it is bull****.

No offense meant here, but no one knows what would have happened. That's probably why they asked the bullpen mop-up guy to do it.

I can see it now: Javy hits a guy, he charges the mound, lands a punch breaking Javy's jaw, putting him out for months. Big time trouble for the Sox and people around here then go crazy over the fact that it wasn't the mop-up guy getting revenge.

If Ozzie was going to have someone do the dirty work, he picked the right guy. However, Ozzie should not have bitched him out on the bench in front of the whole world. That's where he was in the wrong.

brick1119
06-15-2006, 10:08 AM
If Sean Tracey is "scarred" by this, then I'm not sure he's tough enough to be a major league pitcher. He didn't follow his manager's orders, and then he got reamed for it. I hope he learns from this, and becomes a better pitcher down the road for it. If he doesn't, then he doesn't belong in a Sox uniform anyhow.

dickallen15
06-15-2006, 10:10 AM
That fact of the matter is Vazquez's failure to protect his players after the first time AJ was hit, caused AJ to get hit the second time. Bringing a guy in with a specific mission to hit someone is being a headhunter. Tracey is an unfortunate victim last night. I hope it doesn't hurt his career.

1917
06-15-2006, 10:10 AM
No, it's called respecting your manager. Tracey was sent out to do a particular job. He used his own judgment over that of his manager. Ozzie has been in the game for 20+ years and Tracey has been in the bigs 3 games. Listen to your manager.

Amen...I'm old school....Irish Catholic, Marine Corps, you do what your told or pay the price

INSox56
06-15-2006, 10:11 AM
No offense meant here, but no one knows what would have happened. That's probably why they asked the bullpen mop-up guy to do it.

I can see it now: Javy hits a guy, he charges the mound, lands a punch breaking Javy's jaw, putting him out for months. Big time trouble for the Sox and people around here then go crazy over the fact that it wasn't the mop-up guy getting revenge.

If Ozzie was going to have someone do the dirty work, he picked the right guy. However, Ozzie should not have bitched him out on the bench in front of the whole world. That's where he was in the wrong.

None taken. However I do think that a lot of us are getting way too caught up in suspensions. Everyone's quick to point out dark clouds by saying "it's a long season". So Javy or someone gets suspended a game, or our bullpen gets taxed for ONE game...I mean come on, it's not going to be the end of the world...and the team's fight and fire might be lifted more by him even getting the suspension and saying HELL YEAH and going at it after whatever might have happened. I'd say that fire might be even better than losing him for a game.

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 10:12 AM
That fact of the matter is Vazquez's failure to protect his players after the first time AJ was hit, caused AJ to get hit the second time. Bringing a guy in with a specific mission to hit someone is being a headhunter. Tracey is an unfortunate victim last night. I hope it doesn't hurt his career.

But Sir, did you really want Javy to risk having his jaw broken simply to protect his teammates and his own manhood? Sir, surely you jest!

Mercy!
06-15-2006, 10:12 AM
There is a huge difference between hitting someone and intentionally hitting them in the head, which is what "beaning" is. There is no evidence that Ozzie told Tracey to hit anyone in the head. I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle here. Somewhere along the way, the real meaning of "bean ball" was corrupted. Even (especially) the young reporters don't know the difference.

But, yes, beaning used to mean hitting someone in the head. Throwing a bean ball meant aiming for, or hitting, the opponent's head.

Edit: My feeling about the Padilla situation is that I don't know what Guillen told or didn't tell Vasquez to do. And that Tracey was the IDEAL person to come in and plunk someone in the ass. Didn't everyone see Tracey's performance at the Cell? It was almost as if he had the yips on those repeated pitches into the LH batter's box.

dickallen15
06-15-2006, 10:12 AM
Amen...I'm old school....Irish Catholic, Marine Corps, you do what your told or pay the price

So if Ozzie tells someone to bunt, and they fail, should they immediately be chewed out, and optioned to AAA? Tracey did go in on Blaylock a couple of times.

Steelrod
06-15-2006, 10:13 AM
Tracey had no business being put in that situation. This is on Javy and no one else. I lost a lot of respect for Ozzie because of this nonsense.
He (is) was on the major league roster. His job is to listen to his coaches and manager. If he can't,won't do it, he is where he belongs. End of story.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 10:14 AM
Bringing a guy in with a specific mission to hit someone is being a headhunter. Tracey is an unfortunate victim last night. I hope it doesn't hurt his career.

No, bringing a guy in with a specific mission to hit someone is not being a headhunter. Bringing a guy in with a specific mission to hit someone in the head is being a headhunter.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:14 AM
None taken. However I do think that a lot of us are getting way too caught up in suspensions. Everyone's quick to point out dark clouds by saying "it's a long season". So Javy or someone gets suspended a game, or our bullpen gets taxed for ONE game...I mean come on, it's not going to be the end of the world...and the team's fight and fire might be lifted more by him even getting the suspension and saying HELL YEAH and going at it after whatever might have happened. I'd say that fire might be even better than losing him for a game.

What do you mean it's not a big deal?

We're in a pennant race. What if the Sox lost their division by 1 game and lost out on the wildcard too?

Then I'm thinking that one game makes a difference.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 10:14 AM
But Sir, did you really want Javy to risk having his jaw broken simply to protect his teammates and his own manhood? Sir, surely you jest!

It's funny how you completely ignore that you don't have the majority of facts in the situation, yet feel the responsibility to call someone gutless. Maybe if you addressed that instead of making sarcastic remarks, this could be an intelligent discussion.

russ99
06-15-2006, 10:14 AM
If Sean Tracey is "scarred" by this, then I'm not sure he's tough enough to be a major league pitcher. He didn't follow his manager's orders, and then he got reamed for it. I hope he learns from this, and becomes a better pitcher down the road for it. If he doesn't, then he doesn't belong in a Sox uniform anyhow.

It's really a shame. I feel for the kid, but if you can't back up your teammates, he deserved what he got.

I also agree Ozzie had the explosion in front of the team to send a message.

Looks like Tracey's might be in Ozzie's "Kelly Wunch" doghouse. Stuck in AAA all year then dumped to another team in the offseason.

SCarolina_Ron
06-15-2006, 10:15 AM
If Sean Tracey is "scarred" by this, then I'm not sure he's tough enough to be a major league pitcher. He didn't follow his manager's orders, and then he got reamed for it. I hope he learns from this, and becomes a better pitcher down the road for it. If he doesn't, then he doesn't belong in a Sox uniform anyhow.

I agree. Plus, everyone seems to be portraying Tracey as a kid right out of high School. He's 25! If by that age he can't or won't do what his boss says, he deserves the consequences.

1917
06-15-2006, 10:16 AM
So if Ozzie tells someone to bunt, and they fail, should they immediately be chewed out, and optioned to AAA? Tracey did go in on Blaylock a couple of times.

If I'm a rookie and my coach tells me to bunt and I swing away, damn right

kobo
06-15-2006, 10:17 AM
Was Javy told not to hit anyone? We don't know. Was Tracey asked to plunk someone? Again, we don't know for certain, but from Ozzie's reaction we can only assume that was what he put Tracey in to do. Is that wrong? I don't think so. You have a young kid who is trying to make the club or hold his job, and so yes, a young pitcher needs to be tested and needs to do what he is called upon to do by his manager. He failed and let down his team and his manager.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 10:17 AM
None taken. However I do think that a lot of us are getting way too caught up in suspensions. Everyone's quick to point out dark clouds by saying "it's a long season". So Javy or someone gets suspended a game, or our bullpen gets taxed for ONE game...I mean come on, it's not going to be the end of the world...and the team's fight and fire might be lifted more by him even getting the suspension and saying HELL YEAH and going at it after whatever might have happened. I'd say that fire might be even better than losing him for a game.

I hear ya. But for whatever reason, the Sox picked the guy to take care of it. He didn't do so. I don't see how that can possibly reflect poorly upon Javy. Hell, maybe he was in there begging to hit the guy. Or maybe they asked him and he refused. The bottom line is, no one knows. So to pass judgement on him based on no facts is not logical.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 10:17 AM
So if Ozzie tells someone to bunt, and they fail, should they immediately be chewed out, and optioned to AAA? Tracey did go in on Blaylock a couple of times.

To answer your question bluntly, yes. If Cora calls for a bunt, and the batter shakes him off, doesn't even attempt it, what message is the batter sending to Cora and Ozzie. Basically, **** You and what you think - I know more than you.

dickallen15
06-15-2006, 10:18 AM
It's funny how you completely ignore that you don't have the majority of facts in the situation, yet feel the responsibility to call someone gutless. Maybe if you addressed that instead of making sarcastic remarks, this could be an intelligent discussion.

Your argument about Vazquez being charged at and perhaps hurt is lame. What if Tracey hits someone, there is a bench-clearing brawl, and Thome and Konerko get hurt in the melee? Vazquez possibly getting injured was not part of anyone's thinking. He should have sent a message after AJ was plunked the first time, and the entire story would not have occurred.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 10:19 AM
It's really a shame. I feel for the kid, but if you can't back up your teammates, he deserved what he got.

I also agree Ozzie had the explosion in front of the team to send a message.

Looks like Tracey's might be in Ozzie's "Kelly Wunch" doghouse. Stuck in AAA all year then dumped to another team in the offseason.

That's not smart, though. It would have had the same impact if he had taken the kid into the tunnel, chewed his ass out, then sent him down. He could have told the team behind closed doors what happened. To do it in front of everyone was probably an emotional reaction from Ozzie that I would hope he would not want to do again.

dickallen15
06-15-2006, 10:19 AM
To answer your question bluntly, yes. If Cora calls for a bunt, and the batter shakes him off, doesn't even attempt it, what message is the batter sending to Cora and Ozzie. Basically, **** You and what you think - I know more than you.

Tracey went inside a couple of times. Perhaps he tried and missed. Ozzie also seemed to be screaming into the bullpen phone. Maybe there was something lost in the translation about exactly what he wanted Tracey to do.

The Wimperoo
06-15-2006, 10:20 AM
To answer your question bluntly, yes. If Cora calls for a bunt, and the batter shakes him off, doesn't even attempt it, what message is the batter sending to Cora and Ozzie. Basically, **** You and what you think - I know more than you.

How do you know he wasn't trying to hit him. The guy has zero control. He threw inside 3 times. Maybe he just sucks/was so nervous that he couldn't throw it to where he wanted to?

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 10:20 AM
That's not smart, though. It would have had the same impact if he had taken the kid into the tunnel, chewed his ass out, then sent him down. He could have told the team behind closed doors what happened. To do it in front of everyone was probably an emotional reaction from Ozzie that I would hope he would not want to do again.

Agreed. The way I said it before didn't come out right. He wanted to send a message but did it the wrong way. Ozzie was caught up in the moment.

Tonight's game should be interesting...

brick1119
06-15-2006, 10:21 AM
The other part of this is that Ozzie probably knows his team well enough to know that Tracey would be lessened in their eyes by not following through. He gave him a great chance to make some serious points with the veterans, and he blew it.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 10:22 AM
Good points that we really don't know what happened with Javy OR Tracey. Still, I think the main thing is that, Javy said it HIMSELF that he was pretty sure the first one was intentional. You shouldn't have to ask your manager's permission to hit someone. If he thought that first one was intentional, you have to retaliate while you have a valid chance....before the warnings, before the second beaning/drilling.. So then, AJ doesn't get beaned second time (or if he does, padilla's gone) and then after us retaliating that first time, maybe it'd light a fire under our POS hitting last night.

SCarolina_Ron
06-15-2006, 10:23 AM
That's not smart, though. It would have had the same impact if he had taken the kid into the tunnel, chewed his ass out, then sent him down. He could have told the team behind closed doors what happened. To do it in front of everyone was probably an emotional reaction from Ozzie that I would hope he would not want to do again.


I don't want Ozzie to change at all! He always says and acts out what he's feeling! That's what makes Ozzie, "Ozzie" and that's what most of us love!

The Wimperoo
06-15-2006, 10:23 AM
Good points that we really don't know what happened with Javy OR Tracey. Still, I think the main thing is that, Javy said it HIMSELF that he was pretty sure the first one was intentional. You shouldn't have to ask your manager's permission to hit someone. If he thought that first one was intentional, you have to retaliate while you have a valid chance....before the warnings, before the second beaning. So then, AJ doesn't get beaned second time (or if he does, padilla's gone) and then after us retaliating that first time, maybe it'd light a fire under our POS hitting last night.

Amen

Mercy!
06-15-2006, 10:23 AM
So if Ozzie tells someone to bunt, and they fail, should they immediately be chewed out, and optioned to AAA? Tracey did go in on Blaylock a couple of times.
Well, but that's the very definition of "old school," isn't it? How many times have we had to suffer through another one of Hawk's tales about Manager X coming out to the mound and telling Pitcher Y that if he doesn't start doing Z on the next pitch, he's going to be sent down?

Everybody just loves Ozzie's old school ways.......until they don't anymore.

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 10:24 AM
Your argument about Vazquez being charged at and perhaps hurt is lame. What if Tracey hits someone, there is a bench-clearing brawl, and Thome and Konerko get hurt in the melee? Vazquez possibly getting injured was not part of anyone's thinking. He should have sent a message after AJ was plunked the first time, and the entire story would not have occurred.
In any brawl when a batter charges the mound, it's certainly a possibility that anyone can get hurt. However, since the pitcher generally is first in line for getting punched by the hitter, there is a significantly larger chance that he: A) gets hurt or B) gets suspended.

Again, my point is not that a starting pitcher should never hit a batter in retaliation b/c of chance of suspension or injury. I only brought those points up to shed light on potential reasons why Ozzie chose Tracey to do the deed. If you're mad at anyone that Javy didn't hit someone, be mad at Ozzie. It's fairly safe to assume Ozzie ordered what needed to be done and ordered that Tracey do so, and not Javy. To then pass judgment on Javy's character is ridiculous.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 10:24 AM
To answer your question bluntly, yes. If Cora calls for a bunt, and the batter shakes him off, doesn't even attempt it, what message is the batter sending to Cora and Ozzie. Basically, **** You and what you think - I know more than you.

Anyone recall the classic Chuckie Carr quote? When asked to take on a 2-0 count in a close game, he decided to ignore the manager's instruction (Phil Garner, on the Brewers at the time) and swing away. He lifted an easy pop fly to third. When questioned about the play after the game, his response was:

"That ain't Chuckie's game. Chuckie hacks on 2-0."

He didn't last on the team much longer...

Jurr
06-15-2006, 10:26 AM
That's what lesser used bullpen guys are for..they're great hatchet men. Though, it is great when starters hit guys when needed. I remember Garland drilled someone last year in retaliation....it sent a great message that he was behind his guys.

rookie
06-15-2006, 10:26 AM
Our pals over at northsidebaseball are calling Ozzie "classless" for chewing out the rookie on the bench.

:rolleyes:

They are always going to call him classless, just like everyone is always going to call AJ an instigator, whether or not it's true. Ozzie and AJ can never do anything to change that.

So no one is calling Padilla classless. Lovely.

hawkjt
06-15-2006, 10:28 AM
is that it went down as follows;

1. javy was ordered not to retaliate after the second AJ plunk and umpire warning was given due to concern about possible suspension.
2. Tracy was told to either pitch inside by HardArt or to hit him by ozzie.
3. Tracy ,whose control is suspect, tried to hit him but just missed him twice and even on the ball blaylock hit it was inside corner.
4. Ozzie was pissed and took him out and yelled at him and now demoted him to AAA.

5. Tonite pre-game warnings will be issued. Burls will not hit anyone until late in the game if the circumstance allows or not at all to avoid suspension.
6. The sox file it until texas comes to Chicago when it will be taken care of.

I thought Tracey was throwing the ball decently and I wonder who we replace him with. I wish ozzie would not have been so public with it. And I wish he had not sent him down. I highly doubt the kid would disobey intentionally. I just think he missed.

Paulwny
06-15-2006, 10:29 AM
Ozzie is not going to be shown up by a rookie not obeying orders. If Oz hadn't chewed the kid out the respect the veterans have for Oz may have lessened. Ozzie will not lose control of this team.

champagne030
06-15-2006, 10:30 AM
Your argument about Vazquez being charged at and perhaps hurt is lame. What if Tracey hits someone, there is a bench-clearing brawl, and Thome and Konerko get hurt in the melee? Vazquez possibly getting injured was not part of anyone's thinking. He should have sent a message after AJ was plunked the first time, and the entire story would not have occurred.

Except for the very real probability that Javy gets kicked out. A warning doesn't need to be in place before a pitcher is tossed. Then the bullpen get taxed for a few days. It's a very simple concept - the right guy was told to exact revenge and he told Ozzie no.....He gone.

Ol' No. 2
06-15-2006, 10:32 AM
Anyone recall the classic Chuckie Carr quote? When asked to take on a 2-0 count in a close game, he decided to ignore the manager's instruction (Phil Graner, on the Brewers at the time) and swing away. He lifted an easy pop fly to third. When questioned about the play after the game, his response was:

"That ain't Chuckie's game. Chuckie hacks on 2-0."

He didn't last on the team much longer...This is not a question of Tracey refusing to do what he was asked to do. He buzzed Blaylock inside at least twice. But his control isn't that good, and coupled with, I'm sure, being very nervous about the situation, he missed. That's why you don't send in a kid in his third major league game to do the job. If Vazquez had taken care of business after the first time like he should have, none of this would have been necessary.

It was a mistake for Ozzie to send Tracey in to do it and it was a mistake for Ozzie to chew him out publicly when it was Ozzie's and Vazquez' mistakes that caused it.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 10:33 AM
This is not a question of Tracey refusing to do what he was asked to do. He buzzed Blaylock inside at least twice. But his control isn't that good, and coupled with, I'm sure, being very nervous about the situation, he missed. That's why you don't send in a kid in his third major league game to do the job. If Vazquez had taken care of business after the first time like he should have, none of this would have been necessary.

It was a mistake for Ozzie to send Tracey in to do it and it was a mistake for Ozzie to chew him out publicly when it was Ozzie's and Vazquez' mistakes that caused it.

Nice points on Tracey. I agree with most of them. The real reason I posted was to have an excuse to talk about Chuckie Carr.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7536/carr8uv.jpg

:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2006, 10:33 AM
Completely clueless post. They obviously didn't have their "A" game last night so you call out the players on the team for not "knocking in AJ when he was hit"... Tracey was told to plunk someone. He used his judgment over that of his manager. Don't blame Pods, Iguchi, Thome, etc. for that. Sheesh.... :bs:

Completely clueless reply right back at you.
:rolleyes:

I'm blaming Pods, Iguchi and Thome for going hitless against a pitcher throwing fastballs almost exclusively. I'm blaming Crede, Gload and Cintron for failing to drive in AJ after each time he was hit. These are demonstrable facts that cannot be disputed. I'm also blaming Vazquez for sucking on the mound. Each of those players failed last night, in more important tasks than gaining revenge in Ozzie's tit-for-tat weiner-waving contest with Buck Showlater.

Just because Ozzie won a World Series does not mean that he can do no wrong.

I think he was wrong to summon Tracey from the pen just to throw at Blalock. You and most others may disagree. Fine.

I'm not one of those authoritarian personalities who thinks that just because someone is in a position of authority, that they must be obeyed without question. Sometimes superiors make stupid decisions. Ozzie's decision was stupid, reckless, desperate and dumb. I'm not afraid to say so, and if I was on his team, I wouldn't be afraid to say it to his face. If Ozzie cut me or chewed me out, fine.

If he wants to demote or release Tracey because he didn't follow his orders, that's his right.

But power does not equal righteousness; Ozzie's decision was stupid, boneheaded and hotheaded.

SoxFan78
06-15-2006, 10:36 AM
6. The sox file it until texas comes to Chicago when it will be taken care of.


If they dont take care of it tonight, the better take care of it in Chicago. Im still waiting for Torii Hunter to get his after his cheap shot years ago...

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:37 AM
This is not a question of Tracey refusing to do what he was asked to do. He buzzed Blaylock inside at least twice. But his control isn't that good, and coupled with, I'm sure, being very nervous about the situation, he missed. That's why you don't send in a kid in his third major league game to do the job. If Vazquez had taken care of business after the first time like he should have, none of this would have been necessary.

It was a mistake for Ozzie to send Tracey in to do it and it was a mistake for Ozzie to chew him out publicly when it was Ozzie's and Vazquez' mistakes that caused it.

It wasn't a mistake to put Tracey in there. Again, Adkins did it last year. Why can't Sean?

If his control problems and his nervousness are that bad where he can't even plunk a guy in the back then he doesn't belong here. He is where he belongs in AAA.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2006, 10:38 AM
Why is playing "old school" better than just letting things go? Let them plunk us, and we'll gladly take first base. This "old school" excuse is garbage.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:40 AM
But power does equal the respect of your players and peers; Ozzie's decision was good old school managing by a great leader..


There I fixed it for you.:D:

SoxFan78
06-15-2006, 10:41 AM
Why is playing "old school" better than just letting things go? Let them plunk us, and we'll gladly take first base. This "old school" excuse is garbage.

Its called respect.

If teams know that they can hit our players without any retailation, then its open season on the Sox hitters. Especially AJ.

Frater Perdurabo
06-15-2006, 10:41 AM
Why is playing "old school" better than just letting things go? Let them plunk us, and we'll gladly take first base. This "old school" excuse is garbage.

Sensible, reasonable answer.

Take first base, and then score a run.

But Ozzie's too much of a proud hothead and has to prove to the world that he's a "bigger man" than Buck Showlater.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 10:42 AM
If teams know that they can hit our players without any retailation, then its open season on the Sox hitters. Especially AJ.

Other teams aren't going to hit Sox batters for the hell of it. What WILL happen is that opposing pitchers will be able to bust inside as much as they want because if they do happen to hit someone, no big deal.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 10:43 AM
Sensible, reasonable answer.

Take first base, and then score a run.

But Ozzie's too much of a proud hothead and has to prove to the world that he's a "bigger man" than Buck Showlater.

That sends a message as well but it wasn't the one the Sox batters seemed to want to send last night.

Paulwny
06-15-2006, 10:44 AM
This is not a question of Tracey refusing to do what he was asked to do. He buzzed Blaylock inside at least twice. But his control isn't that good, and coupled with, I'm sure, being very nervous about the situation, he missed. That's why you don't send in a kid in his third major league game to do the job. If Vazquez had taken care of business after the first time like he should have, none of this would have been necessary.

It was a mistake for Ozzie to send Tracey in to do it and it was a mistake for Ozzie to chew him out publicly when it was Ozzie's and Vazquez' mistakes that caused it.

Good points however, I don't care who Ozzie told to plunk Blaylock.
The kid was chosen, he threw 2 inside pitches and must have felt that was good enough. All his pitches should have been inside until he hit or walked Blaylock or was ejected by the ump.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:45 AM
Sensible, reasonable answer.

Take first base, and then score a run.

But Ozzie's too much of a proud hothead and has to prove to the world that he's a "bigger man" than Buck Showlater.

It's not about being a "bigger man". Have you watched baseball over the last century?

The "you plunk me I plunk you back" eye for an eye thing has been going on since baseball began. It started on the playgrounds and continued until the players reach MLB.

It has nothing to do with Ozzie being a hothead and everything to do with the "unwritten code" in baseball.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2006, 10:49 AM
It's not about being a "bigger man". Have you watched baseball over the last century?

The "you plunk me I plunk you back" eye for an eye thing has been going on since baseball began. It started on the playgrounds and continued until the players reach MLB.

It has nothing to do with Ozzie being a hothead and everything to do with the "unwritten code" in baseball.
What difference does it make if they know they can throw at somebody? A manager wouldn't want to keep throwing at guys so he can create scoring opportunities. It was a pissing match, plain and simple.

thepaulbowski
06-15-2006, 10:51 AM
What difference does it make if they know they can throw at somebody? A manager wouldn't want to keep throwing at guys so he can create scoring opportunities. It was a pissing match, plain and simple.

:rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
06-15-2006, 10:53 AM
It wasn't a mistake to put Tracey in there. Again, Adkins did it last year. Why can't Sean?

If his control problems and his nervousness are that bad where he can't even plunk a guy in the back then he doesn't belong here. He is where he belongs in AAA.You don't send a boy to do a man's job. Tracy is a "boy" in terms of major league experience. It was Vazquez' job to do and he should have done it after the first time AJ got drilled.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 10:53 AM
I'm not one of those authoritarian personalities who thinks that just because someone is in a position of authority, that they must be obeyed without question. Sometimes superiors make stupid decisions. Ozzie's decision was stupid, reckless, desperate and dumb. I'm not afraid to say so, and if I was on his team, I wouldn't be afraid to say it to his face. If Ozzie cut me or chewed me out, fine.

This isn't Nuremburg. The Sox are not commiting genocide. Players play, managers manage. Just because a player might disagree with a manager's decision, right or wrong, doesn't mean that a player has a right to disobey it. Where does it end? Does someone in the pen refuse to come into the game because they have a problem with the matchup and they think their manager's decision to bring them in is wrong?

If someone is put in to plunk someone, or called in to bunt, or called to take after a 2-0 count :wink: , you do it.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2006, 10:54 AM
:rolleyes:
Anything at all to contribute? For them to know that they can throw at our players without retaliation doesn't make a difference. Throw at them all day, they'll get on base. No manager in their right mind would throw at guys constantly.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:55 AM
What difference does it make if they know they can throw at somebody? A manager wouldn't want to keep throwing at guys so he can create scoring opportunities. It was a pissing match, plain and simple.


Who cares about creating scoring opportunities. We were already down what? 8 -nothing.

If someone goes after you you go after them right back. It's about respect. if we don't retaliate then out players are fair game to everyone.

The "Jerry Manuel peace, love, and Gandhi" days are over. Welcome to good, hard nosed, old school, Ozzie-ball.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:56 AM
You don't send a boy to do a man's job. Tracy is a "boy" in terms of major league experience. It was Vazquez' job to do and he should have done it after the first time AJ got drilled.

Then a 'boy" doesn't deserve to be in a man's game.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2006, 10:57 AM
Who cares about creating scoring opportunities. We were already down what? 8 -nothing.

If someone goes after you you go after them right back. It's about respect. if we don't retaliate then out players are fair game to everyone.

The "Jerry Manuel peace, love, and Gandhi" days are over. Welcome to good, hard nosed, old school, Ozzie-ball.
Fair game to be plunked? Fair game to get a free pass to first base.

champagne030
06-15-2006, 10:58 AM
This is not a question of Tracey refusing to do what he was asked to do. He buzzed Blaylock inside at least twice. But his control isn't that good, and coupled with, I'm sure, being very nervous about the situation, he missed. That's why you don't send in a kid in his third major league game to do the job. If Vazquez had taken care of business after the first time like he should have, none of this would have been necessary.

It was a mistake for Ozzie to send Tracey in to do it and it was a mistake for Ozzie to chew him out publicly when it was Ozzie's and Vazquez' mistakes that caused it.

How do you know he didn't ignore orders? Also, if he was trying to hit him and that's the best he can do he needs to go to the minors to improve his command.

It was a mistake, IMO, to chew him out in the dugout. He should have done it in front of the team, but in the clubhouse. It was not a mistake to send him into the game and plunk someone. It's not like he's some high school kid on the mound.

thepaulbowski
06-15-2006, 10:58 AM
You don't send a boy to do a man's job. Tracy is a "boy" in terms of major league experience. It was Vazquez' job to do and he should have done it after the first time AJ got drilled.

He just proved he was a "boy" by not being able to get the job done. At least the Sox found out early this guy is pretty much gutless.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 10:59 AM
Fair game to be plunked? Fair game to get a free pass to first base.

Again who cares about "the free pass to first base" We were already down 8 to nothing.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 10:59 AM
Then a 'boy" doesn't deserve to be in a man's game.

Gimmie a break. Rookies are "boys", plain and simple.

champagne030
06-15-2006, 11:00 AM
You don't send a boy to do a man's job. Tracy is a "boy" in terms of major league experience. It was Vazquez' job to do and he should have done it after the first time AJ got drilled.

The boy needs to go to the minors so he can grow into a man and move up to the big league level.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2006, 11:00 AM
Again who cares about "the free pass to first base" We were already down 8 to nothing.
And you said we are fair game for "everyone"? Now, I inferred that "everyone" was all of major league baseball. If "everyone" wants to put A.J.'s OBP in the .600's because he's "fair game", that's fine by me.

Thome25
06-15-2006, 11:03 AM
And you said we are fair game for "everyone"? Now, I inferred that "everyone" was all of major league baseball. If "everyone" wants to put A.J.'s OBP in the .600's because he's "fair game", that's fine by me.

That's fine with me too. But, if we're worried about putting ONE of the opposing teams players on 1st base, then we're in more trouble than I thought.

kobo
06-15-2006, 11:03 AM
And you said we are fair game for "everyone"? Now, I inferred that "everyone" was all of major league baseball. If "everyone" wants to put A.J.'s OBP in the .600's because he's "fair game", that's fine by me.
I don't want to see AJ get plunked in every game. That's just silly.

Ol' No. 2
06-15-2006, 11:04 AM
And you said we are fair game for "everyone"? Now, I inferred that "everyone" was all of major league baseball. If "everyone" wants to put A.J.'s OBP in the .600's because he's "fair game", that's fine by me.Nice of you to volunteer someone else to get fired at.

Mickster
06-15-2006, 11:05 AM
Nice of you to volunteer someone else to get fired at.

:D:

rdwj
06-15-2006, 11:05 AM
Gimmie a break. Rookies are "boys", plain and simple.

Being a "boy" didn't stop Brian Anderson from defending his teammate.

FielderJones
06-15-2006, 11:07 AM
:tomatoaward

I have a feeling there will be a few more of these before the day's over.

Craig Grebeck
06-15-2006, 11:09 AM
The point is that no manager would be dumb enough to plunk a player just because he doesn't fear retaliation. A.J. won't get plunked every single game just because Tracey didn't retaliate. Tracey beaning Blalock would have made absolutely no difference.

itsnotrequired
06-15-2006, 11:11 AM
Being a "boy" didn't stop Brian Anderson from defending his teammate.

...and that's one reason why Brian isn't getting chewed out by Ozzie. That doesn't change the fact that he is still a "boy".

rdwj
06-15-2006, 11:17 AM
...and that's one reason why Brian isn't getting chewed out by Ozzie. That doesn't change the fact that he is still a "boy".

I'm very curious to see what Buehrle does tonight. If there are no warnings before the game, and there shouldn't be, will Mark hit a guy with 2 outs in the 1st if nobody is on? I think chances are pretty good.

I have to admit, I do feel a little bad for Tracey - that's a tough position to be in when you've only been up a short time, but it's also a chance to prove yourself. Hopefully he learned something from the experience.

Pequod
06-15-2006, 11:19 AM
A couple of points (already well trodden ground, I suppose):

Players being hit is just part of the psychological aspect of the game. Its done to fire up your own team, send the other guys a message, whatever. That won't change. I don't doubt Showalter ordered the hits in order to wake his own guys up, and AJ was an available target with a huge bullseye. To NOT respond would be to send a message to your own guys that you won't protect them.

As for Ozzie's dealings with Tracey. As far as Ozzie's concerned, Tracey showed him he's not part of the team. Hence, Tracey gets sent down and isn't likely to be back until/unless he proves to Ozzie that he's a team guy. Otherwise, he joins the ranks of other non-team guys who've found other homes in recent years.

PalehosePlanet
06-15-2006, 11:21 AM
Is there any news on Tracey's replacement?

Pequod
06-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Is there any news on Tracey's replacement?

I'm betting either Lopez or Farnsworth. Won't be Boone Logan (*whew*) -- he's sportin' an over 5 ERA at AAA.

PalehosePlanet
06-15-2006, 11:25 AM
Otherwise, he joins the ranks of other non-team guys who've found other homes in recent years.

This reminds a little bit of Jon Rauch' s demotion.

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 11:27 AM
I am simply amazed at how many people are giving Javy a free pass on this one and laying it all on Tracey. Yes, Tracey failed to get the job done. Yes, he deserved to get chewed out for it, but not in front of the TV cameras, and he certainly did not deserve to be demoted for something like this. Javy is a veteran who had an opportunity to protect his teammates before the warning was issued, and he failed to do so. I've let my feelings on this subject be known, and having played team sports all my life I suspect that some of his teammates (particularly A.J.) may feel the same way. We'll see if this has a negative impact on the team's chemistry - hopefully it won't. However, something tells me that we would not be having this discussion if any of our other starters were on the mound last night.

Chip Z'nuff
06-15-2006, 11:29 AM
Tracey does not have thick enough skin to be on this team. Ozzie says pull the trigger. You ****ing pull the trigger! He couldn't do it, he's weak. He was crying in the dugout after ozzie yelled at him! He needs to go back to Kansas and work in a flower shop.

rookie
06-15-2006, 11:30 AM
If they dont take care of it tonight, the better take care of it in Chicago. Im still waiting for Jacque Jones to get his after his cheap shot years ago...

And I'm still waiting for that Escobar stuff to be taken care of.

I just saw the ESPNnews with the Sox and Yankees recap. They had them one right after the other. Kind of like a textbook "here's how it's done."

Whether a boy or man in the eyes of the league, this "kid" is 25. If this is the worst experience he has had on the job so far, then he better get ready for more. By 25 I had a lot worse stuff happen to me at work and it's called reality. Unfortunately the stupid cliche is true, it makes you stronger. And if it doesn't, you find a new job.

This guy is getting a lot of sympathy, maybe he should get some, I don't know. But I am not about to cry him a river.

Chip Z'nuff
06-15-2006, 11:33 AM
If they dont take care of it tonight, the better take care of it in Chicago. Im still waiting for Jacque Jones to get his after his cheap shot years ago...

You'll be waiting a long time, Ozzie has been quoted numerous times he had no problem with the play.

Pequod
06-15-2006, 11:33 AM
I don't think its giving Javy a free pass. I think its simply a question of Ozzie needing to get innings out of his starter and not wanting to put Javy at risk for a suspension. Ozzie needs to get innings out of his starters. Tracey was expendable. Also, last time Javy had to hit somebody, didn't he go on to have a pretty rotten inning? Seemed like it unnerved him a bit.

Deuce
06-15-2006, 11:34 AM
My honest opinion:

1. The Chicago Way is to hit 'em fast and hard... to send a message that we don't take **** from anyone. Something had to be done.

2. Asking a kid to go out there and get the job done was pathetic. It was Javy's game, so it was his responsibility. Don't give me none of that suspension crap. Javy needed to do what was necessary, regardless of the consequences, or simply not do anything at all. That is what Mark did last year, and it cost him his "quality start" streak, in addition to a possible suspension and fine. That was a statement... this was a cop out.

If this in fact was the way it went down, Ozzie should be ashamed of himself.

3. Tracey knew the deal. He made a decision and now he has to live with the repercussions. I feel for the kid, but thats the way the game is played. If he hasn't learned that yet, then maybe this stint in AAA will teach him a thing or two.

Deuce

INSox56
06-15-2006, 11:36 AM
MEANWHILE... ESPN baseball page has a vote out regarding this exact subject and an article. ;) check it out and support old school baseball!

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=2221

PalehosePlanet
06-15-2006, 11:36 AM
I am simply amazed at how many people are giving Javy a free pass on this one and laying it all on Tracey. Yes, Tracey failed to get the job done. Yes, he deserved to get chewed out for it, but not in front of the TV cameras, and he certainly did not deserve to be demoted for something like this. Javy is a veteran who had an opportunity to protect his teammates before the warning was issued, and he failed to do so. I've let my feelings on this subject be known, and having played team sports all my life I suspect that some of his teammates (particularly A.J.) may feel the same way. We'll see if this has a negative impact on the team's chemistry - hopefully it won't. However, something tells me that we would not be having this discussion if any of our other starters were on the mound last night.

It's possible that Ozzie was trying not to overwork the pen and gave Javy orders NOT to retaliate. Of course had he known then that Tracey would be sent down he could have left him (Tracey) out there to take one for the team.

I think it's waaaay too early, and totally unfair, to call-out Vazquez as gutless and deem him not-a-team-player. We don't know what went on.

rdwj
06-15-2006, 11:37 AM
I am simply amazed at how many people are giving Javy a free pass on this one and laying it all on Tracey. Yes, Tracey failed to get the job done. Yes, he deserved to get chewed out for it, but not in front of the TV cameras, and he certainly did not deserve to be demoted for something like this. Javy is a veteran who had an opportunity to protect his teammates before the warning was issued, and he failed to do so. I've let my feelings on this subject be known, and having played team sports all my life I suspect that some of his teammates (particularly A.J.) may feel the same way. We'll see if this has a negative impact on the team's chemistry - hopefully it won't. However, something tells me that we would not be having this discussion if any of our other starters were on the mound last night.

You have no idea what instructions were given to Javy. We DO know what instructions were given to Tracey.

RowanDye
06-15-2006, 11:42 AM
You don't send a boy to do a man's job. Tracy is a "boy" in terms of major league experience. It was Vazquez' job to do and he should have done it after the first time AJ got drilled.
I'm not defending Javy's inaction, but it doesn't make Tracey's action, lack thereof, or more importantly reaction justified.

Ozzie has said this is a team trying to defending a championship, not trying to teach boys how to play.

Ozzie was clearly pissed that Tracey didn't do what he was asked, and he let him know about it.

Some of you are acting like Ozzie has never ripped a player before for not getting it done.

Would you rather him treat him differently than other players because he is young?

Ozzie does not mince words, albeit in broken English, when he is not happy with how his players play.

Mistakes are excusable, lack of execution or mental errors are not.

We don't know how Tracey responded to Ozzie's tirade either, maybe that had as much to do with the demotion as anything.

Even if Tracey was just really missing with his control, it doesn't bode well for his effectiveness as a major league pitcher.

Besides, Politte is on pace to return from the DL on Tuesday.

It's not like Tracey would have been here much longer anyways.

Hopefully he takes it the right the way, as a lesson learned.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 11:42 AM
The point with bashing vazquez is that he shouldn't have NEEDED orders, PERIOD. He knew the first pitch was intentional, he said so himself, so, there's your cue....plunk a guy. Don't wait for ****ing permission, be a man and stand up for your guy. Instead, he gets hit again.

DaleJRFan
06-15-2006, 11:47 AM
So does this mean that Tracey gets traded? Ozzie seemingly has a history of having players moved that don't do what he says or "fit the makeup of the team".

Chip Z'nuff
06-15-2006, 11:48 AM
The point with bashing vazquez is that he shouldn't have NEEDED orders, PERIOD. He knew the first pitch was intentional, he said so himself, so, there's your cue....plunk a guy. Don't wait for ****ing permission, be a man and stand up for your guy. Instead, he gets hit again.

It wasn't Javie's call, it is Ozzies call, no one does anything without alerting Ozzie (see thread Sean Tracey in hot water?)

rdwj
06-15-2006, 11:50 AM
The point with bashing vazquez is that he shouldn't have NEEDED orders, PERIOD. He knew the first pitch was intentional, he said so himself, so, there's your cue....plunk a guy. Don't wait for ****ing permission, be a man and stand up for your guy. Instead, he gets hit again.

He may have been told NOT to respond. You don't know!

We DO know what Tracey was told to do.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 11:50 AM
It wasn't Javie's call, it is Ozzies call, no one does anything without alerting Ozzie (see thread Sean Tracey in hot water?)

I dont' get that at all...I don't get that IF that's the case. I don't hang out in the clubhouse with the sox, so I don't know what "official policy" is. I GUARANTEE you that Randy Johnson didn't need permission to go at perez. Period. You don't need permission to retaliate on something that was against your teammate, especially with the only outcome being warnings. No one had been warned before the second HBP, so Vazquez retaliating after the first HBP would have been the warning shot.

PalehosePlanet
06-15-2006, 11:52 AM
If they dont take care of it tonight, the better take care of it in Chicago. Im still waiting for Jacque Jones to get his after his cheap shot years ago...

I'm drawing a blank on Jacque Jones...do you mean Torii Hunter bowling over Jaime Burke even though the back of the plate was open?

rdwj
06-15-2006, 11:52 AM
So does this mean that Tracey gets traded? Ozzie seemingly has a history of having players moved that don't do what he says or "fit the makeup of the team".

Could be. Let's put it this way - I wouldn't buy a house in Chicago if I were him

Chip Z'nuff
06-15-2006, 11:53 AM
I dont' get that at all...I don't get that IF that's the case. I don't hang out in the clubhouse with the sox, so I don't know what "official policy" is. I GUARANTEE you that Randy Johnson didn't need permission to go at perez. Period. You don't need permission to retaliate on something that was against your teammate, especially with the only outcome being warnings. No one had been warned before the second HBP, so Vazquez retaliating after the first HBP would have been the warning shot.

A bench clearing brawl involving Javie is not something the White Sox can afford. A bench clearing brawl involving Sean Tracey is something the White Sox can afford.

California Sox
06-15-2006, 11:54 AM
I just saw the ESPNnews with the Sox and Yankees recap. They had them one right after the other. Kind of like a textbook "here's how it's done."

And how it was done in Randy Johnson's case is he took it upon himself to defend his teammate. Torre didn't have to order it, he just did it.

Now no one expects Javy to be as surly as the Randy Johnsons and Roger Clemenses of the world, but he should have done something before AJ got hit the second time.

SoxFan78
06-15-2006, 11:55 AM
I'm drawing a blank on Jacque Jones...do you mean Torii Hunter bowling over Jaime Burke even though the back of the plate was open?

Thats what I meant, Torri Hunter, sorry!

PalehosePlanet
06-15-2006, 11:56 AM
A bench clearing brawl involving Javie is not something the White Sox can afford. A bench clearing brawl involving Sean Tracey is something the White Sox can afford.

Well put! Tracey could have served his suspension when and if he ever made it back to the bigs.

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 12:01 PM
A bench clearing brawl involving Javie is not something the White Sox can afford. A bench clearing brawl involving Sean Tracey is something the White Sox can afford.

Taken to its logical conclusion, this argument assumes that a starter should NEVER retaliate for one of our guys getting intentionally plunked, on the off chance that the retaliation could result in a bench-clearing brawl. Given that no warnings had been issued after the first HBP, there is no basis to conclude that Javy's retaliation would have resulted in either a brawl or a suspension.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 12:04 PM
Given that no warnings had been issued after the first HBP, there is no basis to conclude that Javy's retaliation would have resulted in either a brawl or a suspension.
Exactly, so why would ozzie potentially tell Javy not do retaliate after the first HBP? I highly doubt anything was said before the second HBP...

Chip Z'nuff
06-15-2006, 12:07 PM
Taken to its logical conclusion, this argument assumes that a starter should NEVER retaliate for one of our guys getting intentionally plunked, on the off chance that the retaliation could result in a bench-clearing brawl. Given that no warnings had been issued after the first HBP, there is no basis to conclude that Javy's retaliation would have resulted in either a brawl or a suspension.
Let me put it this way, a starter on the 2006 Chicago White Sox, a team NOT favored by umpires, NOT favored by National Media, and a team with a bullpen being held together with horsehair, trying to keep Detroit from running away with the division.... WHILE battling 1st and second place teams for the next two months.

salty99
06-15-2006, 12:09 PM
AJ should have went out there and kicked his ass.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 12:10 PM
AJ should have went out there and kicked his ass.

THERE'S THE IDEA! haha

Ol' No. 2
06-15-2006, 12:14 PM
It wasn't Javie's call, it is Ozzies call, no one does anything without alerting Ozzie (see thread Sean Tracey in hot water?)You think Ozzie had to tell Buehrle what to do last year in Baltimore?

Chip Z'nuff
06-15-2006, 12:18 PM
You think Ozzie had to tell Buehrle what to do last year in Baltimore?

Would you tell Buerhle what to do? :D:

EastCoastSoxFan
06-15-2006, 12:38 PM
Taken to its logical conclusion, this argument assumes that a starter should NEVER retaliate for one of our guys getting intentionally plunked, on the off chance that the retaliation could result in a bench-clearing brawl. Given that no warnings had been issued after the first HBP, there is no basis to conclude that Javy's retaliation would have resulted in either a brawl or a suspension.Taking some posters' responses to their illogical conclusions, there seems to be an assumption that EVERY SINGLE HBP DEMANDS a retaliation. Vazquez didn't KNOW that the first HBP was intentional, his post-game HINDSIGHT on the matter was probably a direct result of the second HBP -- more specifically, that it was thrown to the same spot on the first pitch of the AB.
Since, as far as I know, there hasn't been any long-standing bad blood between the Sox and Rangers, there was no immediate REASON to retaliate for the FIRST HBP. The ONLY reason retaliation became an issue was because of the SECOND HBP, and by that point -- AFTER warnings had been issued -- Vazquez would have been ejected and probably suspended for throwing at someone, which is probably why Ozzie nominated Tracey for the task.
And we all know the rest of the story...

South Side
06-15-2006, 12:40 PM
At what point did they show Tracey looking distraught? I must have missed it.

INSox56
06-15-2006, 12:41 PM
At what point did they show Tracey looking distraught? I must have missed it.
They didn't really show it on comcast (or wciu, whereever it was on..). They showed him yelling and tracey's reaction on the texas broadcast. And then on SC or BBTN.

areilly
06-15-2006, 01:06 PM
Since, as far as I know, there hasn't been any long-standing bad blood between the Sox and Rangers, there was no immediate REASON to retaliate for the FIRST HBP. The ONLY reason retaliation became an issue was because of the SECOND HBP, and by that point -- AFTER warnings had been issued -- Vazquez would have been ejected and probably suspended for throwing at someone, which is probably why Ozzie nominated Tracey for the task.

The only thing I could think of was from Buerhle last year making comments to the effect that the Rangers were using the lights in the windows in center field to signal pitches to the batter. That, and OG has taken a few potshots at Buck Showalter in the press the past few years as well.

MB on the Rangers Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2147225)

Ozzie on Buck Link (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3453)

D. TODD
06-15-2006, 01:06 PM
Tracey was given the job, and he did not do it. Bad Bad choice "rook"! Hopefully he will learn from it, and has fun in AAA. I agree with Oz not having Vazquez plunk a Ranger and getting the suspension, Tracey was perfect for the assignment.

TornLabrum
06-15-2006, 01:10 PM
Not having seen the game (I was at a Jackhammers game last night), I can only speculate, but here's my view, albeit ill-informed on the whole thing:

1) As was mentioned in one of the more recent posts, Vazquez had no reason to assume anyone was intentionally throwing at A.J. I know of absolutely no bad blood between these two teams, just the fact that we rubbed their face in it at home the previous two games, doubling the number of wins we had there over last year.

2) When you're in a tight race, as we are with Detroit, you don't risk one of your starters getting suspended after a warning has been issued. What you do is get the least valuable person in your bullpen, the mop-up guy, to do the job and take the hit from MLB.

3) If you really want to hit a batter, you throw the damn ball behind him. Apparently Tracey didn't do that.

4) I don't care if Ozzie chewed Tracey out in the dugout or on the bus back to the hotel. If the guy can't take it, he shouldn't be wearing a major league uniform.

5) You don't follow orders, you get your ass chewed out and you get sent back down to AAA to contemplate your future in baseball. The Sox are defending a World Series championship, not playing tiddly winks.

I have no idea if Vazquez wasn't defending his players or not. My guess is that after the second plunking (not beaning) of Pierzynski, Vazquez was told not to risk a suspension at this point in the season. Ozzie also may not have wanted to wear out his pen in the 90-degree weather they've had down there for the entire series.

MRM
06-15-2006, 01:12 PM
If Javy gets a suspension from that, then MLB is going to have some problems on their hands because you can't suspend one person for doing one thing and NOT do ANYTHING to Randy Johnson for doing the same exact thing. That wouldn't have happened.

The problem is MLB most certainly COULD suspend one guy and not the other. Baseballs disciplinary actions are completely arbitrary. Precedent means nothing. All that matters is what Bob Watson thinks about you and your team. AJ was punched in the face and was ejected and fined for his trouble. Don't believe for one second that all players and all teams are treated equally by the commishioners office, because they are not. Randy Johnson would (and will) get a free pass from Bud-lights minions because of who he is and who he plays for. Javy would've faced discipline because of who he plays for and the player he would have been protecting.

russ99
06-15-2006, 01:21 PM
They didn't really show it on comcast (or wciu, whereever it was on..). They showed him yelling and tracey's reaction on the texas broadcast. And then on SC or BBTN.

Are there any video or photos out there? I missed the ESPN coverage. (hockey)

MRM
06-15-2006, 01:33 PM
It's really a shame. I feel for the kid, but if you can't back up your teammates, he deserved what he got.

I also agree Ozzie had the explosion in front of the team to send a message.

Looks like Tracey's might be in Ozzie's "Kelly Wunch" doghouse. Stuck in AAA all year then dumped to another team in the offseason.

Yep. Tracey was the perfect guy for that job because he had plausible deniability after the way he pitched in his last outing on Sunday. Sure he would have been tossed, but so what? He wasn't going to face another batter anyhow. The league would have been hard pressed to suspend/fine a guy who was completely wild in his last appearance.

No doubt the chewing out afterwards by Ozzie was for the benefit of the rest of the team and not Ozzie just "losing his cool". And let's face it, it injected a little energy into an otherwise horrible game for Sox fans. After the game Ozzie was asked about the shouting match. Instead of saying "that's between me and the player" or something similar, he said "I can't talk about things that would get me suspended", making it clear to the whole world what it was all about without getting himself into more hot water with the league. Ozzie if far more cunning than he gets credit for.

MRM
06-15-2006, 01:35 PM
AJ should have went out there and kicked his ass.

LOL. AJ would have gotten a 50 game suspension if he had :D:

GregoryEtc
06-15-2006, 01:37 PM
ESPN is putting it to a vote...
Vote: Is baseball's unwritten rule broken?


1) Do you feel a pitcher is ever justified in intentionally hitting a batter in retaliation for one of the pitcher's teammates getting hit by a pitch?

81.2%Yes
18.8%No

2) Who should make the call on whether or not to retaliate?

47.7%Manager
31.2%Pitcher
21.2%Player that was originally hit

3) Do you feel a pitcher is ever justified in intentionally hitting a batter in retaliation for a batter showboating at the plate?

66.1%Yes
33.9%No

4) Do you feel a pitcher is ever justified in intentionally hitting a batter to set a tone for the game or fire up his teammates?

66.5%No
33.5%Yes

5) Which method do you feel is best for dealing with this issue?

75.3%Old school: Let the players settle things ... ''You hit one of mine; I hit one of yours.''
24.7%New school: Umpires warn both teams at the first sign of trouble, with ejections to follow.

6) Should a player receive an automatic suspension if he is ejected for intentionally throwing at a batter?

69.5%No
30.5%Yes

7) Do you think White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen expressly ordered rookie pitcher Sean Tracey to hit Hank Blalock in Wednesday's game?

96.0%Yes
4.0%No

8) If Guillen did want the batter hit, was it fair for him to send in a rookie to do it?

61.4%No
38.6%Yes

9) Do you think the White Sox would still have sent Tracey to the minors after the game if he had hit Blalock?

80.0%No
20.0%Yes

10) Do you have a problem with Guillen berating Tracy in the dugout immediately after pulling him from the game?

74.6%Yes
25.4%No

11) What's your take on players taking things into their own hands in baseball and hockey?

73.0%Both are legitimate
11.7%Get rid of both
7.8%Get rid of fighting in hockey
7.4%Get rid of throwing at hitters in baseball

Frankfan4life
06-15-2006, 01:44 PM
I guess I'm just too old school. Tracey's job was to hit Blaylock. He failed. He should have been chewed out and sent down.I agree with you. When you're in the big leagues you play like a big-leaguer. You are supposed to fulfill your role. Tracey lacked what it took to do what the manager asked him to do. He needs some time to think about it.

However, I'm wondering if "drilling a batter" is something he's going to work on in AAA? OUCH!

Mercy!
06-15-2006, 02:02 PM
And how it was done in Randy Johnson's case is he took it upon himself to defend his teammate. Torre didn't have to order it, he just did it.

Now no one expects Javy to be as surly as the Randy Johnsons and Roger Clemenses of the world, but he should have done something before AJ got hit the second time. And everyone knows that Ozzie didn't immediately instruct Vasquez not to retaliate after the first plunking how?

In other words, Vasquez didn't need "permission" to retaliate. But if Ozzie told him not to, he had better follow instructions just as surely as Sean Tracy should have.

But IMHO humiliating the kid in the dugout in front of the world was not Ozzie's finest moment.

southside rocks
06-15-2006, 02:10 PM
1) As was mentioned in one of the more recent posts, Vazquez had no reason to assume anyone was intentionally throwing at A.J. I know of absolutely no bad blood between these two teams, just the fact that we rubbed their face in it at home the previous two games, doubling the number of wins we had there over last year.

2) When you're in a tight race, as we are with Detroit, you don't risk one of your starters getting suspended after a warning has been issued. What you do is get the least valuable person in your bullpen, the mop-up guy, to do the job and take the hit from MLB.

3) If you really want to hit a batter, you throw the damn ball behind him. Apparently Tracey didn't do that.

4) I don't care if Ozzie chewed Tracey out in the dugout or on the bus back to the hotel. If the guy can't take it, he shouldn't be wearing a major league uniform.

5) You don't follow orders, you get your ass chewed out and you get sent back down to AAA to contemplate your future in baseball. The Sox are defending a World Series championship, not playing tiddly winks.

I have no idea if Vazquez wasn't defending his players or not. My guess is that after the second plunking (not beaning) of Pierzynski, Vazquez was told not to risk a suspension at this point in the season. Ozzie also may not have wanted to wear out his pen in the 90-degree weather they've had down there for the entire series.

My thoughts exactly.

Too bad Jeff Nelson's on the DL; he'd have done the job in a second, and probably relished doing it.

russ99
06-15-2006, 02:12 PM
LOL. AJ would have gotten a 50 game suspension if he had :D:

No kidding. That he didn't go after the pitcher showed incredible restraint by Mr. Pierzynski. I loved the one step towards the mound, though.

southside rocks
06-15-2006, 02:12 PM
But IMHO humiliating the kid in the dugout in front of the world was not Ozzie's finest moment.

I think that if Tracey had an issue with the instructions he was given (assuming he was instructed to hit Blalock), then he should have said something then, BEFORE he trucked on out to the mound.

I'm sorry he got an Ozzie tirade afterwards, but the only way to prevent that was to DO the job, and he didn't. Cause and effect: disregard instructions, get your head handed to you.

CLR01
06-15-2006, 02:32 PM
We DO know what Tracey was told to do.

We do really? What did Art Kusnyer tell Tracey before he came in? No guesses now I want an exact quote.

We don't know what he was told to do all we know is what Ozzie wanted him to do.

miker
06-15-2006, 02:41 PM
Sean Tracey in hot water?

Only if there's hot water in Charlotte! :D:

Thanks...I'm here all week. Make sure you tip you server.

TornLabrum
06-15-2006, 04:37 PM
This just in: Randy Johnson got five games for his actions. Now, did we really want Vazquez to miss a start? Do we want Buehrle to?

ilsox7
06-15-2006, 04:38 PM
This just in: Randy Johnson got five games for his actions. Now, did we really want Vazquez to miss a start? Do we want Buehrle to?

Sadly, some folks will probably still insist that Javy should have thrown at someone.

Iwritecode
06-15-2006, 04:57 PM
This just in: Randy Johnson got five games for his actions. Now, did we really want Vazquez to miss a start? Do we want Buehrle to?

He won't miss a start. He'll probably just get pushed back a day giving everyone else an extra day of rest. Big whoop.

If MLB really wanted to do something about it they'd make it 8 or 9 games. Pitchers only play in every fifth game anyway.

The Immigrant
06-15-2006, 04:58 PM
This just in: Randy Johnson got five games for his actions. Now, did we really want Vazquez to miss a start? Do we want Buehrle to?

Given how Javy has pitched in the month of June, skipping a start may not be the worst thing for him. :tongue:

In all seriousness, with an off day factored in this would simply mean that Garland and Vazquez would be switched in the rotation. With an appeal, the Sox could all but ensure that his start is simply pushed back a day, rather than missed altogether.

DickAllen72
06-15-2006, 05:01 PM
I'm still sticking by the fact that Vazquez should've hit him. See: yesterday's Yankees-Indians game. Posada was hit by a pitch, causing the umps to warn both benches even though the Yanks didnt hit anyone. Later in the game Randy Johnson hits an Indian, is ejected, words are exchanged and that's that. He won't be suspended. That's how it should'v been in Texas last night. If we did happen to lose Javy for 5 games? Well, he hasn't exactly been lights out.

See, the big difference there is... Randy Johnson has a set of balls.

FedEx227
06-15-2006, 06:48 PM
Ozzie screwed up here. Chewing out Tracey in front of everybody was a terrible move on Ozzie's behalf.

I know I'll get in trouble with the old-school fans of WSI, but please let Texas worry about hitting us, let everyone worry about doing that type of crap, why don't we go out and win. I think it's sad that Ozzie felt the need to humiliate a young pitcher for not doing exactly what Ozzie told him, it's clear that Tracey TRIED to do it, IMO thats enough, we sent the message that we were trying to hit them.

See, the big difference there is... Randy Johnson has a set of balls.
And has now potentially cost his team a victory, which is always important in the tough AL. Great move!

Chips
06-15-2006, 07:21 PM
Now, did we really want Vazquez to miss a start?
No.

Do we want Buehrle to?
No ****ing way.

chaerulez
06-15-2006, 08:34 PM
Ozzie screwed up here. Chewing out Tracey in front of everybody was a terrible move on Ozzie's behalf.

I know I'll get in trouble with the old-school fans of WSI, but please let Texas worry about hitting us, let everyone worry about doing that type of crap, why don't we go out and win. I think it's sad that Ozzie felt the need to humiliate a young pitcher for not doing exactly what Ozzie told him, it's clear that Tracey TRIED to do it, IMO thats enough, we sent the message that we were trying to hit them.


And has now potentially cost his team a victory, which is always important in the tough AL. Great move!

I agree that Tracey didn't deserve to be chewed out. He shouldn't have been in that situation. Vazquez should've been the one the hit him. He wasn't even doing good, so who cares if he gets ejected. The suspension that follows would have been 5 days, you just get Vazquez to serve it when there is an off day, and juggle the rotation so that you just push him back a day. Vazquez has gone on record he knew what was going on the first time around, so after the second time around he should've been the one to settle it. Seems to make more sense to do it then a few innings later or the next game.

South Side
06-15-2006, 09:15 PM
They didn't really show it on comcast (or wciu, whereever it was on..). They showed him yelling and tracey's reaction on the texas broadcast. And then on SC or BBTN.

Ohh, is there any way to see this?

INSox56
06-15-2006, 10:31 PM
Ohh, is there anyway to see this?

LOL only if you watch a lot lot lot of espn. LOL I didn't have to thankfully. They show snips of it every now and then. If anyone hasn't seen this yet, it's a good article talkign about last night's "events".
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060615&content_id=1506912&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Evidently Tracey, being the young rookie he is, didn't know what to do after he missed with the first pitch, got frazzled, and just finished the AB. An understandable error. I wasn't really pissed with him in this whole mess anyway.

A. Cavatica
06-15-2006, 10:48 PM
Ozzie with the lukewarm defense of AJ: "If you play against A.J., you hate him; if you play with him, you hate him less."

But he did say he expected his pitchers to retaliate. He'll be fined for sure.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2486362

PKalltheway
06-16-2006, 01:28 AM
And I'm still waiting for that Escobar stuff to be taken care of.

I just saw the ESPNnews with the Sox and Yankees recap. They had them one right after the other. Kind of like a textbook "here's how it's done."

Whether a boy or man in the eyes of the league, this "kid" is 25. If this is the worst experience he has had on the job so far, then he better get ready for more. By 25 I had a lot worse stuff happen to me at work and it's called reality. Unfortunately the stupid cliche is true, it makes you stronger. And if it doesn't, you find a new job.

This guy is getting a lot of sympathy, maybe he should get some, I don't know. But I am not about to cry him a river.
I agree with you there. He should definitely have a one-on-one talk with Brad Lidge. Losing three clutch games in the postseason has to be worse than getting chewed out by Ozzie.

ondafarm
06-16-2006, 01:39 AM
Is Tracey in hot water? Well, no. He's in Charlotte.

TornLabrum
06-16-2006, 07:27 AM
If you haven't done so, check out yesterday's Palehose 6 strip on this subject. I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7577/1975/1600/tracey.jpg

digdagdug23
06-16-2006, 08:22 AM
Awww I love a Hermie reference!

Vernam
06-16-2006, 10:15 AM
Ozzie with the lukewarm defense of AJ: "If you play against A.J., you hate him; if you play with him, you hate him less."The video clip of this made it obvious that Ozzie was joking, which the Trib and ESPN neglected to point out in their stories. The Sun-Times did, though.

Something tells me Ozzie first heard someone use that line in reference to him. :wink:

This controversy had an extremely short shelf-life thanks to yesterday's win. If they take care of business in Cincy, it'll be forgotten before we know it.

Vernam

Tragg
06-16-2006, 10:50 AM
If we want to retaliate, do it straight up - don't wait until the game's over and a rookie pitcher that you don't care if he gets suspended...that's weak. Putting a pitcher just called up on the spot like that is weak. As is yelling at the guy.