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Lip Man 1
06-14-2006, 11:47 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060613soxbits,1,5968685.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

DaleJRFan
06-14-2006, 11:50 AM
"I don't count on him," manager Ozzie Guillen said Tuesday of Hermanson, who has been troubled for nearly a year by lower-back problems. "I shouldn't because I don't know how he is going to come back."

Not good. I guess we should all assume he is "done" and that we won't be seeing him on the southside...

jackbrohamer
06-14-2006, 12:10 PM
That's a shame, here's hoping he can resume his career some day. He was such a huge part of last year's championship.

hawkjt
06-14-2006, 01:34 PM
When you consider hermy's loss , you have to say the bullpen has survived.
Nelson was also a loss ,altho minor, and of course marte and vizcaino. So it is hard to imagine the bullpen not experiencing tough times with that kind of turnover including Cliff.

Gone;

hermy
cliff
vizcaino
marte
nelson

in;

tracy
macarthy
thornton
montero

Bunch of vets replaced by a bunch of babies. I am optimistic but still worried about this turnover. Last year was such a breeze out there.

PAPChiSox729
06-14-2006, 02:07 PM
When you consider hermy's loss , you have to say the bullpen has survived.
Nelson was also a loss ,altho minor, and of course marte and vizcaino. So it is hard to imagine the bullpen not experiencing tough times with that kind of turnover including Cliff.

Gone;

hermy
cliff
vizcaino
marte
nelson

in;

tracy
macarthy
thornton
montero

Bunch of vets replaced by a bunch of babies. I am optimistic but still worried about this turnover. Last year was such a breeze out there.


McCarthy and Thorton are developing into solid options down in the 'pen. Tracey and Montero do worry me a little bit; I hope the Sox have better solutions coming and coming soon.

DaleJRFan
06-14-2006, 02:37 PM
When you consider hermy's loss , you have to say the bullpen has survived.
Nelson was also a loss ,altho minor, and of course marte and vizcaino. So it is hard to imagine the bullpen not experiencing tough times with that kind of turnover including Cliff.

Gone;

hermy
cliff
vizcaino
marte
nelson

in;

tracy
macarthy
thornton
montero

Bunch of vets replaced by a bunch of babies. I am optimistic but still worried about this turnover. Last year was such a breeze out there.

Wait until after the deadline before throwing the Sox bullpen out the window.

If you look at the bullpen at this point in the season in 05, 06 is right on par as far as the bullpen 'on paper' - its just that some guys aren't doing as well as last season, specifically Politte and even Cotts to a lessor extend (did anyone actually expect a sub 2 ERA from him again??)

With Politte and Cotts returning from 05, lets look at the actual turnover:

Vazquez > Hernandez

Thornton ~ Marte
McCarthy > Vizcaino
Jenks > Hermanson

Cotts & Politte remain.

Nelson, Montero, Tracey, Logan > Takatsu, Adkins, Walker, Bajenaru, Sanders

The bottom line is that some of the guys KW and Ozzie are counting on to deliver results out of the 'pen have to start throwing better, end of story.

Deuce
06-14-2006, 02:44 PM
Damn. The wife and I were just talking about this last night. Looks like KW is going to be on the horn for a reliever, if he hasn't been already.

Deuce

Dan Mega
06-14-2006, 03:11 PM
I hope the Sox have better solutions coming and coming soon.

Cliff Politte will come off the DL soon and return to 2005 form.:D:

thomas35forever
06-14-2006, 04:25 PM
No matter what happens with Hermy or Cliff, we're still gonna need bullpen help.

Chip Z'nuff
06-14-2006, 04:27 PM
montero looked wicked on the mound against clevland sun night. We'll be alright.

Ol' No. 2
06-14-2006, 04:35 PM
If the starters can get their acts together and start pitching 6-7 innings consistently, four good relievers are plenty and Montero and Tracey become irrelevant. That's what they were working with most of last year.

hold2dibber
06-14-2006, 04:42 PM
Wait until after the deadline before throwing the Sox bullpen out the window.

If you look at the bullpen at this point in the season in 05, 06 is right on par as far as the bullpen 'on paper' - its just that some guys aren't doing as well as last season, specifically Politte and even Cotts to a lessor extend (did anyone actually expect a sub 2 ERA from him again??)

With Politte and Cotts returning from 05, lets look at the actual turnover:

Vazquez > Hernandez

Thornton ~ Marte
McCarthy > Vizcaino
Jenks > Hermanson

Cotts & Politte remain.

Nelson, Montero, Tracey, Logan > Takatsu, Adkins, Walker, Bajenaru, Sanders

The bottom line is that some of the guys KW and Ozzie are counting on to deliver results out of the 'pen have to start throwing better, end of story.

Well, the issue I see (and I said it all winter) was that a lot of guys in the pen last year had career years (particularly Hermanson and Politte - not sure yet if Cotts had a career year, since he's so young its hard to say). As great as Jenks has been, I doubt he'll match what Hermanson did last year (people forget about how amazing he was -- 2.04 ERA!). Politte, even if healthy, was very unlikely to dominate like he did last year. Cotts has been solid this year, but he was lights out last year. So the spectacular 1-2-3 punch of Hermy, Politte and Cotts from last year hasn't been (and in my view, likely won't be) quite as spectacular in the hands of Jenks, McCarthy and Cotts/Thornton. Therefore, I'd really like to see KW add some depth by replacing Montero, Tracey, etc. with guys we can count on.

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2006, 04:51 PM
As great as Jenks has been, I doubt he'll match what Hermanson did last year (people forget about how amazing he was -- 2.04 ERA!).

Hermanson sure did do a great job. But he never was the kind of strikeout pitcher that Jenks is. Jenks' ERA might be a bit higher, but a closer's ERA can be deceptively high from just one or two bad outings (which Jenks has had to go along with his overwhelming number of solid appearances this year).

MikeLove
06-14-2006, 04:53 PM
thats the same stuff theyve been saying about hermanson for months, not exactly an update. Thanks for the link though.

mjmcend
06-14-2006, 04:56 PM
If the starters can get their acts together and start pitching 6-7 innings consistently, four good relievers are plenty and Montero and Tracey become irrelevant. That's what they were working with most of last year.

I know we are comparing the team to last year's version (which is not a bad idea since as I recall, they did ok), the our bullpen has still thrown 20 fewer innings than any other team in baseball. Our starters still pitch longer than every other team. They do pitch 6-7 innings consistency. They are averaging 6.52 innings per game. For reference, the Sox's starters averaged 6.63 innings per game last year.

I understand and agree with your point. The more the starters pitch, the less the back of the bullpen matters, but our starters are doing more than thier fair share already.

Ol' No. 2
06-14-2006, 05:07 PM
I know we are comparing the team to last year's version (which is not a bad idea since as I recall, they did ok), the our bullpen has still thrown 20 fewer innings than any other team in baseball. Our starters still pitch longer than every other team. They do pitch 6-7 innings consistency. They are averaging 6.52 innings per game. For reference, the Sox's starters averaged 6.63 innings per game last year.

I understand and agree with your point. The more the starters pitch, the less the back of the bullpen matters, but our starters are doing more than thier fair share already.They did fine early in the season, but I was referring more to the last few weeks. Lotta guys getting early showers lately.

Blueprint1
06-14-2006, 05:13 PM
I know we are comparing the team to last year's version (which is not a bad idea since as I recall, they did ok), the our bullpen has still thrown 20 fewer innings than any other team in baseball. Our starters still pitch longer than every other team. They do pitch 6-7 innings consistency. They are averaging 6.52 innings per game. For reference, the Sox's starters averaged 6.63 innings per game last year.

I understand and agree with your point. The more the starters pitch, the less the back of the bullpen matters, but our starters are doing more than thier fair share already.

I think alot of people forget that Jose and Hernandez were not that consistant to start last season.

goon
06-14-2006, 05:19 PM
i do not entirely believe that our bullpen is a huge problem. in the last week or so mccarthy has been coming around, neal just had a great night, montero has been pitching rather well and tracey.... leaves a bit to be desired, though he has only pitched twice i believe. you gotta hope politte can comeback and return to his form of last year, then maybe pick up one more guy, probably a veteran Right Hander. if cliff comes back and is still struggling, look for montero to continue to work out of the pen and for kenny to make a move.

hold2dibber
06-14-2006, 05:27 PM
Hermanson sure did do a great job. But he never was the kind of strikeout pitcher that Jenks is. Jenks' ERA might be a bit higher, but a closer's ERA can be deceptively high from just one or two bad outings (which Jenks has had to go along with his overwhelming number of solid appearances this year).

Don't get me wrong - I love Jenks and view him as an upgrade over Hermanson in the long run (even if healthy, I highly doubt Hermy could have duplicated last year's success). But Hermanson's ERA last year wasn't smoke and mirrors - IIRC, he converted something like his first 24 save opportunities, and I think he only blew 2 all year (could be wrong on that - I don't have time to check). My point is, as great as Jenks has been and as happy as I am that the Sox have him, I don't think he's going to be quite as spectacular as Hermanson was last year (when he was, IMHO, the best closer in baseball until he got hurt). Nonetheless, Jenks is the least of my concerns in the bullpen this year.

Ol' No. 2
06-14-2006, 05:31 PM
Don't get me wrong - I love Jenks and view him as an upgrade over Hermanson in the long run (even if healthy, I highly doubt Hermy could have duplicated last year's success). But Hermanson's ERA last year wasn't smoke and mirrors - IIRC, he converted something like his first 24 save opportunities, and I think he only blew 2 all year (could be wrong on that - I don't have time to check). My point is, as great as Jenks has been and as happy as I am that the Sox have him, I don't think he's going to be quite as spectacular as Hermanson was last year (when he was, IMHO, the best closer in baseball until he got hurt). Nonetheless, Jenks is the least of my concerns in the bullpen this year.Hermanson (2005): 1.10 WHIP
Jenks (2005): 1.25 WHIP
Jenks (2006): 1.12 WHIP

Don't be mislead by ERA, which, as Frater pointed out, can be deceptive early in the season.

hold2dibber
06-14-2006, 05:34 PM
Hermanson (2005): 1.10 WHIP
Jenks (2005): 1.25 WHIP
Jenks (2006): 1.12 WHIP

Don't be mislead by ERA, which, as Frater pointed out, can be deceptive early in the season.

Fair point - still, I wonder (aloud) what Hermy's WHIP (and ERA) were before he got hurt.

Ol' No. 2
06-14-2006, 05:40 PM
Fair point - still, I wonder (aloud) what Hermy's WHIP (and ERA) were before he got hurt.You'll have to do the calculations yourself:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/players/splits?statsId=5387&type=pitching&year=2005

With only about 10 IP in each month the numbers are subject to considerable variation due to small sample size.

Soxfanspcu11
06-15-2006, 02:36 AM
Wait until after the deadline before throwing the Sox bullpen out the window.

If you look at the bullpen at this point in the season in 05, 06 is right on par as far as the bullpen 'on paper' - its just that some guys aren't doing as well as last season, specifically Politte and even Cotts to a lessor extend (did anyone actually expect a sub 2 ERA from him again??)

With Politte and Cotts returning from 05, lets look at the actual turnover:

Vazquez > Hernandez

Thornton ~ Marte
McCarthy > Vizcaino
Jenks > Hermanson

Cotts & Politte remain.

Nelson, Montero, Tracey, Logan > Takatsu, Adkins, Walker, Bajenaru, Sanders

The bottom line is that some of the guys KW and Ozzie are counting on to deliver results out of the 'pen have to start throwing better, end of story.


I agree with most of what you have said, but Thornton being equal to Marte?:?:

I would have to say that Matt is a fairly big upgrade over Marte. Especially the Marte of late '05 (not counting WS game 4).

DaleJRFan
06-15-2006, 10:17 AM
I agree with most of what you have said, but Thornton being equal to Marte?:?:

I would have to say that Matt is a fairly big upgrade over Marte. Especially the Marte of late '05 (not counting WS game 4).

I meant more that its a wash. You could argue for both Thornton and Marte. I'm holding judgement on Matt Thornton for a few more months. He has exceeded all expectations anyone had for him here in Chicago, but for 3 seasons, Marte was the best lefthanded reliever in baseball. People seem to forget that.