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Frater Perdurabo
06-09-2006, 11:05 AM
I'm pre-emptively posting this in "What's the Score," feel free to abuse and berate as necessary:

I want to make it known that I have no problems with Jon Garland. I believe the defense let him down last night. I also want to reiterate that I have been among the fiercest Brian Anderson defenders. Nevertheless, it seems that because Ozzie makes the (expletive deleted) lineups, he's lost complete faith in Anderson. If Ozzie insists on playing Mackowiak, a career a utility infielder in CF, then KW should find Ozzie a real CF who can hit decently.

Here's my ridiculous proposal, which, of course, has a number of hurdles to overcome.

1. Convince Jon Garland to waive his no trade clause to go back to the West Coast, in this case, San Francisco (yes, I know he's from Southern California, but it's still much closer to his home).

2. Trade Garland and Uribe to the Giants for Omar Vizquel and Steve Finley. Both are recent Gold Glove winners who also would make the Sox lineup the strongest 1-9 in the major leagues, far and away. The Giants need starting pitching more than anything else. Randy Winn takes over in CF, allowing Moises Alou to play right. Of course, Uribe replaces Vizquel. This would be one of those deals that could make both teams better. The Giants sacrifice some offense to gain pitching; the Sox sacrifice some pitching to gain hitting.

3. Move McCarthy into the rotation.

4. Trade prospects to Pittsburgh for Roberto Hernandez and Mike Gonzalez (their two best relievers). Hernandez was our mid-1990s closer, and Gonzalez is the Pirates' current closer.

Further explanation: Vizquel can bat first, second or ninth, giving the Sox the ability to put a slumping Pods at ninth or move Iguchi lower in the order, or have Vizquel to turn over the lineup (but why waste a .405 OBP in the 9 hole?). Finley can bat anywhere in the lower third of the order. He still has fantastic extra base power, as evidenced by his eight triples so far this year. If I made the (expletive deleted) lineup, I'd have a 1-2 of Vizquel and Iguchi, and bat Finley eighth and Pods ninth. Vizquel likely would maintain a .400+ OBP batting in front of the likes of Thome, Konerko and Dye. The Sox would have to hang on to Valido and groom him as Vizquel's eventual replacement, so he would be the only untouchable prospect in dealing with Pittsburgh.

McCarthy has demonstrated his ability to be an effective starter and could capably take over for Garland. The much-strengthened pen shakes out like this: Jenks, Cotts, Thornton, Hernandez, Gonzalez (interestingly, even though he's a lefty, he's actually slightly better against righties than lefties) and Tracey.

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 11:19 AM
I'm pre-emptively posting this in "What's the Score," feel free to abuse and berate as necessary:

I want to make it known that I have no problems with Jon Garland. I believe the defense let him down last night. I also want to reiterate that I have been among the fiercest Brian Anderson defenders. Nevertheless, it seems that because Ozzie makes the (expletive deleted) lineups, he's lost complete faith in Anderson. If Ozzie insists on playing Mackowiak, a career a utility infielder in CF, then KW should find Ozzie a real CF who can hit decently.

Here's my ridiculous proposal, which, of course, has a number of hurdles to overcome.

1. Convince Jon Garland to waive his no trade clause to go back to the West Coast, in this case, San Francisco (yes, I know he's from Southern California, but it's still much closer to his home).

2. Trade Garland and Uribe to the Giants for Omar Vizquel and Steve Finley. Both are recent Gold Glove winners who also would make the Sox lineup the strongest 1-9 in the major leagues, far and away. The Giants need starting pitching more than anything else. Randy Winn takes over in CF, allowing Moises Alou to play right. Of course, Uribe replaces Vizquel. This would be one of those deals that could make both teams better. The Giants sacrifice some offense to gain pitching; the Sox sacrifice some pitching to gain hitting.

3. Move McCarthy into the rotation.

4. Trade prospects to Pittsburgh for Roberto Hernandez and Mike Gonzalez (their two best relievers). Hernandez was our mid-1990s closer, and Gonzalez is the Pirates' current closer.

Further explanation: Vizquel can bat first, second or ninth, giving the Sox the ability to put a slumping Pods at ninth or move Iguchi lower in the order, or have Vizquel to turn over the lineup (but why waste a .405 OBP in the 9 hole?). Finley can bat anywhere in the lower third of the order. He still has fantastic extra base power, as evidenced by his eight triples so far this year. If I made the (expletive deleted) lineup, I'd have a 1-2 of Vizquel and Iguchi, and bat Finley eighth and Pods ninth. Vizquel likely would maintain a .400+ OBP batting in front of the likes of Thome, Konerko and Dye. The Sox would have to hang on to Valido and groom him as Vizquel's eventual replacement, so he would be the only untouchable prospect in dealing with Pittsburgh.

McCarthy has demonstrated his ability to be an effective starter and could capably take over for Garland. The much-strengthened pen shakes out like this: Jenks, Cotts, Thornton, Hernandez, Gonzalez (interestingly, even though he's a lefty, he's actually slightly better against righties than lefties) and Tracey.

Why do you want us to become the SF Giants? Vizquel, Finley, and Hernandez????

QCIASOXFAN
06-09-2006, 11:22 AM
I hate Vizquel!!

tweek57
06-09-2006, 11:27 AM
Vizquel (39) + Finley (41) + Hernandez (41) = 121 years old combined

Garland (26) + Uribe (26) = 52 Years old combined

The second Steve Finley gets back into an AL lineup like he did last year he's done, the only reason he's even in the league right now is because the NL is just that weak and he gets to hit in front of Bonds everyday.

Also Mike Gonzalez will not be leaving Pitt unless you want to give up 3 big time prospects for him, just ask Arizona what the Pirates are demanding for Gonzalez, it's more than the Sox even have. He's a free agent after '09 so they have him under control for 3 more years, no reason to trade him now.

The Giants would absolutely make that trade in a second, trade 2 players near the end of their careers for 2 26 year olds with great talent?

Not gonna help the team at all.

Britt Burns
06-09-2006, 11:33 AM
Garland and Uribe - two players who, although struggling, are in their prime and have established track records - for fossils Vizquel and Finley? Hmmmm....I think KW can do better than that.

Dan Mega
06-09-2006, 11:42 AM
Trading young guys for over the hill players playing in the weak link of the MLB (the NL)?

No thanks.

cbotnyse
06-09-2006, 11:47 AM
Vizquel (39) + Finley (41) + Hernandez (41) = 121 years old combined

Garland (26) + Uribe (26) = 52 Years old combined



those guys are old. way too old too trade young talent. the next few years the 3 SF guys will quickly be going downhill in their carrers and our guys are still climbing the ladder.

Vernam
06-09-2006, 11:54 AM
Why do you want us to become the SF Giants? Vizquel, Finley, and Hernandez????Maybe Frater is trying to undo the White Flag Trade at long last?!

I could do without Vizquel, but Finley would look pretty good right about now. Hernandez I could take or leave, though his ERA's barely over 2.00 at the moment. As you said, it ain't gonna happen.

Call me paranoid, too, but with the HGH scandal heating up, I'm extra leery of picking up old guys who are still productive in their late 30s. :cool:

Vernam

SBSoxFan
06-09-2006, 12:10 PM
Vizquel already turned down a chance to play for the Sox. I think KW takes that personally, and, therefore, won't be looking to trade for him.

Finley scares me as he's less than a year removed from a horrible season in the AL.

BadgerChisox
06-09-2006, 12:17 PM
People seem to forget about two years ago when our fifth starter could not buy a win. 0-15 or something like that. He will settle down, prob get around 13-15 wins. Hey Ill take it and so would many teams.

Frater Perdurabo
06-09-2006, 12:20 PM
I guess a .405 OBP switch-hitting Gold-Glove shortstop doesn't impress anyone? So what if he's 39? He's producing and won't turn 40 until next April! In two years, Valido will be ready to take over anyway, or the Sox will just find someone else (Uribe himself is only signed through 2007).

Perhaps this is "overpaying" on the part of the Sox. Perhaps not. People were screaming that the Sox "overpaid" for Podsednik and Vizcaino before last season. (And remember Vizquel was KW's infamous "Plan A" before 2005.)

Oh well. At least it stoked some good debate...

Frater Perdurabo
06-09-2006, 12:22 PM
People seem to forget about two years ago when our fifth starter could not buy a win. 0-15 or something like that. He will settle down, prob get around 13-15 wins. Hey Ill take it and so would many teams.

Re-read my original post carefuly. I don't want to trade Garland just for the sake of trading him. All things being equal, I'd rather keep the rotation intact. However, he is the most expendable of the five starters and I believe that McCarthy could replicate his production in the rotation.

rowand33
06-09-2006, 12:30 PM
I we're going to get an outfielder from the giants, you go for Randy Winn. I'll take anderson ovr finley.

White Sox Randy
06-09-2006, 01:12 PM
1. I doubt that the Sox will make any BIG deals. I would expect a small trade for a RH hitter that can cover center - a Luis Matos for example. The Sox still expect B. Anderson to be their CF of the future.

2. Uribe isn't going anywhere this year.

3. Garland isn't going anywhere this year.

munchman33
06-09-2006, 01:21 PM
1. I doubt that the Sox will make any BIG deals. I would expect a small trade for a RH hitter that can cover center - a Luis Matos for example. The Sox still expect B. Anderson to be their CF of the future.

2. Uribe isn't going anywhere this year.

3. Garland isn't going anywhere this year.

4. Mike Gonzalez isn't coming here. Or anywhere. The Pirates wouldn't trade him for anything less than a gold mine.

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2006, 01:59 PM
I guess a .405 OBP switch-hitting Gold-Glove shortstop doesn't impress anyone? So what if he's 39? He's producing and won't turn 40 until next April! In two years, Valido will be ready to take over anyway, or the Sox will just find someone else (Uribe himself is only signed through 2007).

Perhaps this is "overpaying" on the part of the Sox. Perhaps not. People were screaming that the Sox "overpaid" for Podsednik and Vizcaino before last season. (And remember Vizquel was KW's infamous "Plan A" before 2005.)

Oh well. At least it stoked some good debate...Vizquel hasn't had a full-season OBP above .353 since 2000. He's riding a good spring, but it's more likely he'll be closer to those numbers the rest of the year. And his defense isn't what it used to be, either. Similar story with Finley. He blew chunks last season with the Angels, and is not exactly setting the world on fire this year, either. Put those two guys in the pitching-rich AL Central and you can subtract 20-30 pts from their batting averages. In the end, Finley is only marginally better than Mackowiak, all things considered.

This is not just overpaying. It's highway robbery.

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 04:41 PM
I guess a .405 OBP switch-hitting Gold-Glove shortstop doesn't impress anyone? So what if he's 39? He's producing and won't turn 40 until next April! In two years, Valido will be ready to take over anyway, or the Sox will just find someone else (Uribe himself is only signed through 2007).

Perhaps this is "overpaying" on the part of the Sox. Perhaps not. People were screaming that the Sox "overpaid" for Podsednik and Vizcaino before last season. (And remember Vizquel was KW's infamous "Plan A" before 2005.)

Oh well. At least it stoked some good debate...

It's not that Vizquel wouldn't be a good addition, it's that you could probably get him by taking on the rest of his contract and giving up a mid level prospect. Vizquel over Uribe would work right now. But then again, Cintron over Uribe is working right now.

Roberto Hernandez I would take if there isn't any other option, but I think KW would be looking for something a bit better than him at this point. If July 20th or so comes and no moves have been made for the bullpen then I think Roberto becomes a better option.

Steve Finley is done. Done, done, done.

Frater Perdurabo
06-09-2006, 04:47 PM
It's not that Vizquel wouldn't be a good addition, it's that you could probably get him by taking on the rest of his contract and giving up a mid level prospect. Vizquel over Uribe would work right now. But then again, Cintron over Uribe is working right now.

Roberto Hernandez I would take if there isn't any other option, but I think KW would be looking for something a bit better than him at this point. If July 20th or so comes and no moves have been made for the bullpen then I think Roberto becomes a better option.

Steve Finley is done. Done, done, done.

Since the Giants are just two games back of Arizona, in what may be Bonds' last year in SF, I do not believe they would give up their starting shortstop for a mid-level prospect just for some small salary relief.

pmck003
06-09-2006, 04:51 PM
If you replace Finley with Winn it would make better sense.

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 05:13 PM
Since the Giants are just two games back of Arizona, in what may be Bonds' last year in SF, I do not believe they would give up their starting shortstop for a mid-level prospect just for some small salary relief.

You're probably right. Sabean's an idiot, which is why I mentioned in another thread that we should trade them Politte for some top prospects or something, no teal needed.

sullythered
06-09-2006, 05:23 PM
We could probably get Finley for a few mid level prospects, if we even want him. Uribe is a better defensive shortstop than Vizquel is right now, and he's only 26. I don't care if Omar has recent gold gloves or not, we all know people win those on reputation, and he can't make the plays Juan does regularly. Plus, Juan has ALWAYS been a streaky hitter. He'll come around.

Gonzalez is a pipe dream.

thomas35forever
06-09-2006, 05:29 PM
Forget it. Why do we need a bunch of aging players? Plus, we already gave up a bunch of prospects in the trade for Vazquez. Trading Lance Broadway is one of the last things we wanna do.

ilsox7
06-09-2006, 05:31 PM
Forget it. Why do we need a bunch of aging players? Plus, we already gave up a bunch of prospects in the trade for Vazquez. Trading Lance Broadway is one of the last things we wanna do.

The Sox gave up one prospect in the Vazquez deal.

santo=dorf
06-09-2006, 06:49 PM
If you replace Finley with Winn it would make better sense.
Actually it becomes much worse. Winn is owed a ton of money.

The Omar Vizquel bashing is the exact same bashing that was going on before the 2005 season. "He's too old!!"

The Pirates have traded Mike Gonzalez before, but an injury to one of the players they acquired forced the Red Sox to send him back.

I like this idea of going after the GM who traded Nathan, Liriano, and Boof for one year's worth of AJ. I also like the idea of preying on Dave Littlebrain.

santo=dorf
06-09-2006, 06:53 PM
Vizquel hasn't had a full-season OBP above .353 since 2000. He's riding a good spring, but it's more likely he'll be closer to those numbers the rest of the year. And his defense isn't what it used to be, either. Similar story with Finley. He blew chunks last season with the Angels, and is not exactly setting the world on fire this year, either. Put those two guys in the pitching-rich AL Central and you can subtract 20-30 pts from their batting averages. In the end, Finley is only marginally better than Mackowiak, all things considered.

This is not just overpaying. It's highway robbery.
You were one the biggest bashers of the potential Vizquel signing before the 2005 season, and it seems like you're still in denial about him.

His defense is declining? He sure looked sharp last year winning the Gold Glove. Omar is the #2 hitter that Ozzie wanted Uribe to be before this season. He doesn't strikeout (almost 3 walks to K's this year,) and can actually get a bunt down.

I'd stay away from Finley though

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2006, 08:39 PM
You were one the biggest bashers of the potential Vizquel signing before the 2005 season, and it seems like you're still in denial about him.

His defense is declining? He sure looked sharp last year winning the Gold Glove. Omar is the #2 hitter that Ozzie wanted Uribe to be before this season. He doesn't strikeout (almost 3 walks to K's this year,) and can actually get a bunt down.

I'd stay away from Finley thoughWe all know Gold Gloves are won largely on reptuation, so I don't think that proves anything. But a look at his offensive stats shows what I said back then...that his good years are in his rearview mirror and that he wouldn't be all that much better offensively than Uribe. Here are the 2005 numbers

Vizquel: .271/.341/.350
Uribe: .252/.301/.412

The real issue was with him as a #2 hitter. The Sox clearly wound up doing better with Iguchi .278/.342/.438 for A LOT less money.

Tragg
06-10-2006, 09:09 AM
I'm against selling out and loading this team up with mediocre veterans that are well past their prime.
This isn't a "now or never" baseball team as it is...make it as strong as you can without selling out, because there WILL be a next year and a next.

Finley and Vizquel may need walkers to get around the bases before the season's out.
Garland and Uribe for those two?
ONe thing in Uribe's defense...he's got Anderson hitting behind him and he probably sees a lot of junk, and we know that Uribe won't lay off junk.

Our bullpen may be stabilizing a bit with the talent on hand. Why not put Garland in the pen for a while and see what happens?