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View Full Version : *official* Postgame thread 6-8-06 Sox give one to the Tiggers.


oeo
06-08-2006, 10:11 PM
Mackowiak should NOT be starting in centerfield. I've seen enough of his terrible defense blowing game after game after game. Not only that, but he's not doing anything better than Brian would at the plate.

If he is paying attention, I-Roid doesn't advance on the play in the 6th. Who knows what happens then. Brian's defense is essential, it means more to this team than Mackowiak's spectacular offense.

Brian said it best himself, his offensive woes lately have been because bad pitch selection. Until a new centerfielder comes along that can play defense, Brian needs to be starting. Enough of Mackowiak, he is NOT a centerfielder and he shows it every single day.

BNLSox
06-08-2006, 10:14 PM
Amen brother! If we aren't going out and getting a veteran or giving another minor leaguer a shot at CF, put Brian in. It should still be tied at 2. Its amazing how much heads up baserunning on bad defense can change a game.

alohafri
06-08-2006, 10:17 PM
Last night, after her rant on Anderson, I told Mrs. Aloha that she is not allowed to complain about Mackowiak when he plays center. Mack should be at third base right now after they pulled Crede.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 10:25 PM
Last night, after her rant on Anderson, I told Mrs. Aloha that she is not allowed to complain about Mackowiak when he plays center. Mack should be at third base right now after they pulled Crede.

this platoon is a disaster. it's killing anderson's confidence and killing us on the field defensively.

skobabe8
06-08-2006, 10:25 PM
I'd really like to see BA out there alot more. Puting him in the lineup only against pitchers who are a "good matchup" for him only adds more pressure for him to succeed.

Playah
06-08-2006, 10:28 PM
I could not agree more. Anderson is our only CF and hence he should be playing CF. It's just that simple.

-Leo

P.S. I'm new and this is my first post. I am just so outraged that Ozzie keeps putting up a utility man in CF that I just had to vent.

HotelWhiteSox
06-08-2006, 10:33 PM
Ozzie is obviously sending Anderson a message (probably from that atbat where he was 3-0 and struck out looking). Anderson doesn't come in defensively last night in a close game and doesn't start today against a lefty

I think he's almost in a situation made to fail though. A rookie without regular atbats constantly getting scrutinized for his offense. Hawk claims Ozzie knows how to handle him, but then DJ tells stories where Ozzie tells Brian when he is eating breakfast 'you better enjoy that, it could be your last one'. Funny at times, probably not for Brian at that time

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 10:35 PM
Mackowiak is clueless out there. Two mistakes today led to a big inning. Not getting the ball back in time allowing Pudge to get to second was only a minor mistake. If he thows that ball to 2nd on the bloop, Uribe tosses to Gooch on that chopper and the inning is over.

chisoxmike
06-08-2006, 10:36 PM
YES YES AND MORE YES.

Mackowiak is NOT a CF. Brian Anderson is. The Sox have now lost 2 or 3 games because of his ****ty play in CF.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 10:37 PM
I agree 100%. Macko should not be allowed to play CF. Maybe one of the corner outfield spots, but CF?! No way. Had BA been out there, the whole inning may have been avoided. Is it just me or does the defense always seem to let Jon down?

MrRoboto83
06-08-2006, 10:37 PM
I'd really like to see BA out there alot more. Puting him in the lineup only against pitchers who are a "good matchup" for him only adds more pressure for him to succeed.

I agree. I would go a little further and perhaps bump Anderson up a few spots in the batting order. Perhaps pitchers would pitch him differently. Of course this would just be an experiment.

wassagstdu
06-08-2006, 10:39 PM
I like Mackowiak off the bench, but he can NOT play center field, not on a championship team. Absolutely ridiculous.

.

stl_sox_fan
06-08-2006, 10:39 PM
Wasn't Pods a CFer in Brew Town? Why does it seem like this team is deep everywhere but the outfield? Whatever happens, just no Ozuna in the Outfield.

LuvSox
06-08-2006, 10:39 PM
I'ii take a 5-1 record against Detroit. We'll catch and pass them in due time. No problem.

gobears1987
06-08-2006, 10:43 PM
**** Garland looking like Jamie Navarro.

EdHerman12
06-08-2006, 10:43 PM
Oh man....I know everyone is going to get on Makowiak's case....I said earlier today if our pitching struggles and the bats don't come through we will lose....I'm very concerned about Garland at this point in time....BUT.....we move on and the Tribe comes to town and the Kitties head to Toronto and life goes on. :gulp: <----drink up, move on, have fun!

GO SOX!

gobears1987
06-08-2006, 10:43 PM
On a good note, we are 5-1 against the kittens.

stl_sox_fan
06-08-2006, 10:44 PM
**** Garland looking like Jamie Navarro.

That's hitting below the belt.

oeo
06-08-2006, 10:44 PM
Wasn't Pods a CFer in Brew Town? Why does it seem like this team is deep everywhere but the outfield? Whatever happens, just no Ozuna in the Outfield.

Pods plays an average (at best) leftfield, and terrible centerfield. He's not the answer. The answer is Brian, or someone from outside of the organization.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 10:44 PM
did they just say anderson is getting shipped down? ***, this is a disaster. we're totally getting away from what has brought us success.

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 10:44 PM
**** Garland looking like Jamie Navarro.Not at all. He had one bad inning due to piss poor defense behind him. There is no way in hell that the two run homer in the 6th happens if Mack knew how to play CF.

Patrick134
06-08-2006, 10:44 PM
Another series won, quit whining. Sending Dye in the first was bad though. I'm all for aggresive baserunning, but that doesn't mean just send everybody every time. He was dead to rights even on a poor throw.

billyvsox
06-08-2006, 10:44 PM
I call this years edition "The Out-Of-Position Sox"

Mackowiak is NOT a centerfielder
Pablo is NOT a leftfielder
Cintron is NOT a thirdbaseman
McCarthy is NOT a reliever
etc...etc...etc...

Yet we keep running these guys out there because "we have confidence in them"

I dont care if BA hits .000 and K's every time up, we need his defense up the middle. Rowand is not coming back, we need a defensive centerfielder. I would rather battle to win 2-1, then HAVE to win 8-7 because of poor defense.

stl_sox_fan
06-08-2006, 10:45 PM
Pods plays an average (at best) leftfield, and terrible centerfield. He's not the answer. The answer is Brian, or someone from outside of the organization.

Why oh why can't weeee have an http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:e1JCG9--dFSRoM:http://www.staples.com/sbd/img/cre/mkt/easybutton/easybutton_lg_top.gif

oeo
06-08-2006, 10:45 PM
Oh man....I know everyone is going to get on Makowiak's case....I said earlier today if our pitching struggles and the bats don't come through we will lose....I'm very concerned about Garland at this point in time....BUT.....we move on and the Tribe comes to town and the Kitties head to Toronto and life goes on. :gulp: <----drink up, move on, have fun!

GO SOX!

Well you should be worried more about the centerfield problem than Garland. Jon will be fine, he pitched stellar...and if it wasn't for terrible defense behind him, he would have won that game.

Patrick134
06-08-2006, 10:46 PM
Not at all. He had one bad inning due to piss poor defense behind him. There is no way in hell that the two run homer in the 6th happens if Mack knew how to play CF.

I don't mind cutting garland some slack after the miscues, but the actual serving of that gopher ball is on him there, and that homer was the true backbreaker...it's a different game if it stays 4-2.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 10:47 PM
I call this years edition "The Out-Of-Position Sox"

Mackowiak is NOT a centerfielder
Pablo is NOT a leftfielder
Cintron is NOT a thirdbaseman
McCarthy is NOT a reliever
etc...etc...etc...

Yet we keep running these guys out there because "we have confidence in them"

I dont care if BA hits .000 and K's every time up, we need his defense up the middle. Rowand is not coming back, we need a defensive centerfielder. I would rather battle to win 2-1, then HAVE to win 8-7 because of poor defense.

McCarthy is solid out of the pen. He had a couple rough outings but there's no comparison between him and mack being completely out of his element in CF. the other ones are not in the same ballpark.

I want Mags back
06-08-2006, 10:47 PM
that game suked. well, were still 5-1 against tighers. now lets go get the tribe

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 10:47 PM
Why is everyone saying that Jon's outing sucked? You can't just look at the box score and get the whole story. Ozzie even said that Jon pitched pretty good. He pitched seven innings and he pitched inside a lot.

If Macko hadn't been out there and BA was...we could be talking about a whole different story.

oeo
06-08-2006, 10:48 PM
I don't mind cutting garland some slack after the miscues, but the actual serving of that gopher ball is on him there, and that homer was the true backbreaker...it's a different game if it stays 4-2.

Point is, Thames should have never even had an at-bat that inning. After those 2 runs on terrible plays by Mackowiak, I felt the game was over anyway. All the momentum changed in those two plays.

HawkDJ
06-08-2006, 10:49 PM
**** Garland looking like Jamie Navarro.


?? Garland's looked pretty good the last two games and lost. Today he should've got out of that 6th inning a few times.


Also, while I agree with what we're saying about BA but maybe I missed something, but I'm not so sure if BA was out there in this case it would've made much of a difference.

billyvsox
06-08-2006, 10:49 PM
McCarthy is solid out of the pen. He had a couple rough outings but there's no comparison between him and mack being completely out of his element in CF. the other ones are not in the same ballpark.

Have you seen Pablo in leftfield... Are you kidding me??
I live in Arizona, watch the D'Bcks, Cintron NEVER sniffed 3B, he only played SS and on occasion 2B when he first cam eup.

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 10:49 PM
I don't mind cutting garland some slack after the miscues, but the actual serving of that gopher ball is on him there, and that homer was the true backbreaker...it's a different game if it stays 4-2.That's my point, the game should have been 3-2 at most if Mack throws that ball into 2nd after that blooper.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 10:49 PM
Point is, Thames should have never even had an at-bat that inning. After those 2 runs on terrible plays by Mackowiak, I felt the game was over anyway. All the momentum changed in those two plays.

thank you.

i'm glad other people can look past the box score and not just blame jon for a loss. the defense, mainly CF, let the team down today.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 10:51 PM
Have you seen Pablo in leftfield... Are you kidding me??
I live in Arizona, watch the D'Bcks, Cintron NEVER sniffed 3B, he only played SS and on occasion 2B when he first cam eup.

I said that because those are off-day substitutions and not an everyday or semi-everyday situation. But even then at least pablo is in left and not center.

Patrick134
06-08-2006, 10:52 PM
It really seemed like Garland turned a corner last year, especially after the stellar playoff work. But this year it's too much old Garland. His batting average against is atrocious.

oeo
06-08-2006, 10:53 PM
**** Garland looking like Jamie Navarro.

Have you watched the last two games? Garland has been very good overall. *****, Garland did not cause this loss, he kept them in the game. Mackowiak single-handedly changed the game.

Heffalump
06-08-2006, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by billyvsox

I dont care if BA hits .000 and K's every time up, we need his defense up the middle. Rowand is not coming back, we need a defensive centerfielder. I would rather battle to win 2-1, then HAVE to win 8-7 because of poor defense.



I agree. We have more than enough hitting, to make up for his bat (or lack thereof). And I think his hitting will EVENTUALLY come around.

Eventhough Garland should have worked over it, instead of imploding, we have given up too many freebies lately due to having a little extra punch in the lineup while sacrificing defense.

On a positive note, Tracey looked decent out there. He looked confident and not overmatched.

RowanDye
06-08-2006, 10:57 PM
I would love to hear Ol' No. 2's take on this game....

Edit: Batting stats do not mean anything when your CF can't throw a ball!!!

Jacob Nelson Fox
06-08-2006, 10:57 PM
This was a "good loss" because it really crystallizes the issue.

Maco is not a centerfielder, plain and simple. No team can contend for championships with a centerfielder hitting a buck-fifty, so Anderson is out. There is no one currently capable in the minor league system.

Ergo, it's time for KW to get busy.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 11:00 PM
This was a "good loss" because it really crystallizes the issue.

Maco is not a centerfielder, plain and simple. No team can contend for championships with a centerfielder hitting a buck-fifty, so Anderson is out. There is no one currently capable in the minor league system.

Ergo, it's time for KW to get busy.

Anderson got yanked out of the starting lineup after a month. Why can't we just give him a shot to get his sea legs without pulling the rug out from under him? It's a long way to the trade deadline, there's no use platooning him with somebody that's worthless defensively. If nothing changes and there aren't any other glaring areas that need upgrades then KW should look into finding somebody. Until then, get rid of this BS platoon.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 11:03 PM
**** Garland looking like Jamie Navarro.

have you even seen his past two starts?!

SweetnesSox
06-08-2006, 11:05 PM
It really seemed like Garland turned a corner last year, especially after the stellar playoff work. But this year it's too much old Garland. His batting average against is atrocious.


sure is hard when you gotta get four/five outs in an inning...

FarWestChicago
06-08-2006, 11:06 PM
No team can contend for championships with a centerfielder hitting a buck-fiftyActually, almost every year an NL team contends for the championship with a number 9 hitter averaging less than a buck-fifty.

Beautox
06-08-2006, 11:08 PM
Why is everyone saying that Jon's outing sucked? You can't just look at the box score and get the whole story. Ozzie even said that Jon pitched pretty good. He pitched seven innings and he pitched inside a lot.

If Macko hadn't been out there and BA was...we could be talking about a whole different story.

I'm afraid you can look at the box score and get the whole story Jon has given up 18or19HRs this year and Ozzie said that because he knows Jon is weak and if he calls him out he will shatter any confidence he has. His outting did suck, he can't pitch over defensive lapses, its pathetic. Sean Tracey the rookie from AAA came up and pitched over it like a STUD. Jon Garland had a fluke 1/2 season, and will always be a mediocore pitcher. I hope hes gone in the offseason. Secondly I blame The count's agent for this mess with regards to Garland and McCarthy not in the rotation.

In other news Sean Tracey is a stud, and i like what i see. This is to you Sean :gulp:first white sox pitcher to come up to the MLB level in a while and not wet the bed.

JB98
06-08-2006, 11:10 PM
I figured the postgame thread tonight would be filled with the Friends of BA and the Enemies of Garland. I'm neither, and I'm not in the mood to argue about this garbage anymore. So I'm out. Let's beat the Tribe tomorrow. Screw you guys, I'm going home.

Patrick134
06-08-2006, 11:10 PM
sure is hard when you gotta get four/five outs in an inning...

Enough about that Inning. in 77 innings, he's given up 97 hits. And the miscues in that inning weren't of the extra outs variety. Mackowiaks poor throw choice just positioned the runner into scoring position, it wasn't a case where it would have been an out.

Blob
06-08-2006, 11:12 PM
Jon is our 5th starter too. Get us some wins here and there. That's it.

Sure beats a couple of years ago with the "bring up the rookie of the week" program we were running!

beckett21
06-08-2006, 11:13 PM
In other news Sean Tracey is a stud, and i like what i see. This is to you Sean :gulp:first white sox pitcher to come up to the MLB level in a while and not wet the bed.

His performance was easily the highlight of the evening.

I'll also agree with all of the posts saying enough of this CF platoon garbage. Mackowiak doesn't belong out in CF any more than Ross Gload does.

Let Anderson play or get a real CF in here.

I like Mackowiak, I really do. He's an excellent utility guy to have off the bench or for spot starts. He is not a CF by any stretch of the imagination. You can't blame him directly, because he is not the one who makes the ****ing lineup.

I appreciate the effort, but he shouldn't be out there.

santo=dorf
06-08-2006, 11:15 PM
Jon is our 5th starter too. Get us some wins here and there. That's it.

Sure beats a couple of years ago with the "bring up the rookie of the week" program we were running!
I thought Vazquez was our #5?

The only thing seperating 2006 Garland from 2004 Felix Diaz is about $7 million and a NTC.

Enough of the excuses FOJG.

nasox
06-08-2006, 11:16 PM
Actually, almost every year an NL team contends for the championship with a number 9 hitter averaging less than a buck-fifty.
Bull ****. The NL teams that contend play other teams with pitchers that bat the whole year (save for the few interleague games they play). The Sox play against teams with a DH, so I think that this argument is crap. If we played in the NL, then we could have a crappy hitter in the 9 hole. But we don't, so as long as AL teams don't bat their pitchers, we are at a competitive disadvantage with a 9 hitter batting 150.

Still, I think his defense more than makes up for it, and the fact he was pulled after only a month and change of starting means that he wasn't given a true chance. Give him more time (like we did with Crede a couple years ago).

nasox
06-08-2006, 11:18 PM
I figured the postgame thread tonight would be filled with the Friends of BA and the Enemies of Garland. I'm neither, and I'm not in the mood to argue about this garbage anymore. So I'm out. Let's beat the Tribe tomorrow. Screw you guys, I'm going home.
You'll be missed.:rolleyes:

DickAllen72
06-08-2006, 11:20 PM
Mackowiak should NOT be starting in centerfield.

Correct. Mackowiak is a good utility player who can play well in LF, RF and from what I've heard, decent 3B. He can play CF well enough in a pinch, but should not be starting out there.

Mackowiak's two bone head plays contributed to the loss tonight, and don't forget Konerko posing for pictures at first base while the runner is on the way home. The Sox gave this game away. As Jermaine would say, "Dumb and dumber!"

Not only that, but he's not doing anything better than Brian would at the plate.


Wrong. If you haven't been watching the games for the past two months, check the numbers. Anderson hasn't done a thing at the plate for the past few weeks except look foolish. He needs some time in AAA to straighten himself out.


The Sox are in need of a major league centerfielder.

California Sox
06-08-2006, 11:20 PM
Garland is the team's 4th or 5th starter. Rogers is the Tigers #1 or #2. Garland's going to be fine. Now personally by the end of their careers I think McCarthy >> Garland, but for this year I don't see much choice.

Really wish we still had CYoung, though. But KW rolled the dice trading 2 CF in the offseason, so far it hasn't worked out. I believe regardless of how bad Mack is in CF, you have to send BA down. Can't let him completely bury himself mentally, it could destroy his career. Maybe a month in Charlotte where the guys seem to be having a very good time is exactly what he needs to get himself on track.

Scary thing with him, though, is he is not guaranteed to hit ever. There were quite a few questions about his long term hitting potential on this board the last couple of years and he has done nothing this year or last year to answer them.

Blob
06-08-2006, 11:20 PM
I thought Vazquez was our #5?

The only thing seperating 2006 Garland from 2004 Felix Diaz is about $7 million and a NTC.

Enough of the excuses FOJG.
Damn! Whoops!! :redface:

Well, actually, why cant we just consider him that?

wassagstdu
06-08-2006, 11:20 PM
the defense, mainly CF, let the team down today.

Mental errors. And don't forget PK's brain cramp. Last year it was the other guys who lost concentration and the Sox who played hungry.

.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2006, 11:22 PM
The thing about Garland that concerns me most is this...he's reverted back to giving up a 'big inning,' and even worse in my opinion many of these innings this season are taking place when he's got two outs.

I can recall at least three times this season, where with two outs, suddenly things falls apart.

Lip

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 11:23 PM
Mental errors. And don't forget PK's brain cramp. Last year it was the other guys who lost concentration and the Sox who played hungry.

.

yep. mental errors.

and i am still blaming the defense. not that jon didn't make some mistakes, but really, the defense just prolonged that inning and just worsened the whole thing.

DickAllen72
06-08-2006, 11:23 PM
Let Anderson play or get a real CF in here.

I vote for the latter.

I like Mackowiak, I really do. He's an excellent utility guy to have off the bench or for spot starts. He is not a CF by any stretch of the imagination. You can't blame him directly, because he is not the one who makes the ****ing lineup.

I appreciate the effort, but he shouldn't be out there.

I agree 100%.

santo=dorf
06-08-2006, 11:25 PM
Damn! Whoops!! :redface:

Well, actually, why cant we just consider him that?
Because at some point we have to stop making excuses and grab the bull by the horns.

Time to man up Jon. Prove April and May of 2005 were not a fluke.

santo=dorf
06-08-2006, 11:29 PM
Mental errors. And don't forget PK's brain cramp. Last year it was the other guys who lost concentration and the Sox who played hungry.

.
More excuses.

Why should Konerko throw home if the guy the is out at first? That would have been the third out, and Konerko had to look at the ump to see what the call was.

Konerko should not just assume the runner would be safe and force a throw home.
Oh yeah, if Guillen is held at third, that makes Thames' homer a 3 run jack instead of two.

beckett21
06-08-2006, 11:31 PM
I vote for the latter.

I've just about come to that realization also.

As much as I support BA for what he brings defensively, it's become abundantly clear that Ozzie is not going to play him every day. What the kid needs is regular AB's and he's not going to get them at this level right now.

SouthSide_HitMen
06-08-2006, 11:32 PM
I was at the game and rarely do I leave early unless we are 10 runs up or down but I couldn't stay any longer in the 7th because I was so pissed over Mackowiak's two pathetic plays - the tag up play and then not throwing at the cut off man (with ABSOLUTE ZERO CHANCE OF GETTING THE GUY WHO ALREADY WAS ROUNDING THIRD WHILE HE STILL HAD THE ****ING BALL YET HE THROWS HOME :angry: :angry: ) as well as Konerko's brain fart all with two outs.

Rogers was awesome after the first which was the ballgame so hats off to him but I hate playing stupid and the White Sox were outsmarted and outplayed. The latter is acceptable whereas the former is not tolerable.

Dye was a dead duck at home in the first. It is one thing to be aggressive it is another to be stupid. Crede's play yesterday would have been dead as well if it weren't for the misplay. Cora needs to wake up as well.

Any talk of replacing Garland or blaming Garland or calling him Judy is asinine. I don't understand how Anderson is supposed to bounce back playing one or two games a week. Mackowiak is not a centerfielder period and this talk of sending Anderson down (as well as playing Mackowiak regularly since mid May after giving a Anderson a measly 5 or 6 weeks) is ludicrous without having a CFer to take his place. Mackowiak is deficient in the field and the plate. He is good in his role - 1 or 2 games a week. His career average is in the .250s and he has no speed and little power.

samram
06-08-2006, 11:33 PM
His performance was easily the highlight of the evening.

I'll also agree with all of the posts saying enough of this CF platoon garbage. Mackowiak doesn't belong out in CF any more than Ross Gload does.

Let Anderson play or get a real CF in here.

I like Mackowiak, I really do. He's an excellent utility guy to have off the bench or for spot starts. He is not a CF by any stretch of the imagination. You can't blame him directly, because he is not the one who makes the ****ing lineup.

I appreciate the effort, but he shouldn't be out there.

Thanks, doc. This is exactly the point. Mack is a utility player- always has been, always will be. If he was better than that, he would have been an everyday player somewhere starting the season. If KW wants to make a trade, fine, otherwise at least make sure the guy in CF is making the correct plays.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 11:34 PM
I was at the game and rarely do I leave early unless we are 10 runs up or down but I couldn't stay any longer in the 7th because I was so pissed over Mackowiak's two pathetic plays - the tag up play and then not throwing at the cut off man (with ABSOLUTE ZERO CHANCE OF GETTING THE GUY WHO ALREADY WAS ROUNDING THIRD WHILE HE STILL HAD THE ****ING BALL YET HE THROWS HOME :angry: :angry: ) as well as Konerko's brain fart all with two outs.

Rogers was awesome after the first which was the ballgame so hats off to him but I hate playing stupid and the White Sox were outsmarted and outplayed. The latter is acceptable whereas the former is not tolerable.

Dye was a dead duck at home in the first. It is one thing to be aggressive it is another to be stupid. Crede's play yesterday would have been dead as well if it weren't for the misplay. Cora needs to wake up as well.

Any talk of replacing Garland or blaming Garland or calling him Judy is asinine. I don't understand how Anderson is supposed to bounce back playing one or two games a week. Mackowiak is not a centerfielder period and this talk of sending Anderson down (as well as playing Mackowiak regularly since mid May after giving a Anderson a measly 5 or 6 weeks) is ludicrous without having a CFer to take his place. Mackowiak is deficient in the field and the plate. He is good in his role - 1 or 2 games a week. His career average is in the .250s and he has no speed and little power.

I said in the game thread that I would have left early too. :redneck

Vernam
06-08-2006, 11:34 PM
Have you watched the last two games? Garland has been very good overall. *****, Garland did not cause this loss, he kept them in the game. Mackowiak single-handedly changed the game.Yep, Mack-o-Wack needs to wear this one. I'm not ready to say Garland's turned the corner, but he's pitching way better. Eliminate the HRs, and he's good to go.

Not to be all blue-sky, but there's a big difference between someone having a couple of mental lapses and someone who's utterly lacking fundamentals. No one on the Sox meets the latter description, though they sure are suffering brain cramps. There've been a couple of recent cases where teams took extra bases on Pods and now Mackowiak, where it looks like their advance scouts have noted some of our outfielders get lackadaisical about throwing the ball in. It's disappointing, but it doesn't mean those guys are suddenly worthless. I do wonder when Ozzie's going to erupt again like in Toronto, though.

Uh, oh yeah, we're 5 and 1 against our main rival. :gulp: Q: Where are all the people who were so worried we'd be 5.5 back after tonight? A: They're on the ledge because we blew a chance to sweep.

Vernam

SouthSide_HitMen
06-08-2006, 11:39 PM
thank you.

i'm glad other people can look past the box score and not just blame jon for a loss. the defense, mainly CF, let the team down today.

Not only that but pitchers are having to face additional batters in each outing due to the miscues which makes them leave earlier and extends the bullpen.

After reading this thread I am surprisingly feeling better now that I was able to cool off on the way home and then find here people are not bashing Garland and see the problem we have. Hopefully Ozzie and KW realize this before it is too late.

Let Anderson serve the five game suspension and then start him regularly.

Postgame venting ovah!!!

thomas35forever
06-08-2006, 11:39 PM
There wasn't much we could do about tonight's game. A few defensive gaffes and we were basically out of it with Rogers pitching. At least gained a game in the standings in this series.

SluggersAway
06-08-2006, 11:43 PM
So can we say the consensus is: give BA another chance at CF, let Jon off the hook for the loss, hope Crede is back at third, and tell Cora to be a little less aggressive when it is clear no one will score?

beckett21
06-08-2006, 11:44 PM
Thanks, doc. This is exactly the point. Mack is a utility player- always has been, always will be. If he was better than that, he would have been an everyday player somewhere starting the season. If KW wants to make a trade, fine, otherwise at least make sure the guy in CF is making the correct plays.

I'm trying to diffuse some of the Mackowiak 'bashing'.

It's not his fault that he's playing out of position. He was brought here to upgrade the bench, not to be a starting CF. I'm sure he's doing his best out there; I can't fault him.

Mackowiak's a solid player and is servicable at several positions. CF is not one of them.

samram
06-08-2006, 11:44 PM
Not only that but pitchers are having to face additional batters in each outing due to the miscues which makes them leave earlier and extends the bullpen.

After reading this thread I am surprisingly feeling better now that I was able to cool off on the way home and then find here people are not bashing Garland and see the problem we have. Hopefully Ozzie and KW realize this before it is too late.

Let Anderson serve the five game suspension and then start him regularly.

Postgame venting ovah!!!

Agreed. The way I see it, this team, as much as it is a better offensive club than last year's, is still based on starting pitching. I say they play to that strength by giving the starters the best chance to succeed. That means playing BA everyday.

samram
06-08-2006, 11:48 PM
I'm trying to diffuse some of the Mackowiak 'bashing'.

It's not his fault that he's playing out of position. He was brought here to upgrade the bench, not to be a starting CF. I'm sure he's doing his best out there; I can't fault him.

Mackowiak's a solid player and is servicable at several positions. CF is not one of them.

I didn't intend to bash Mack. I think he's a very valuable utility player. However, he's a utility guy for a reason- he's not good enough to have been given a starting job (nor has he won one) in spring training.

And no doubt, he was here to play 3B, RF, and LF. He wasn't supposed to be the starting CF- it's not his fault at all.

Hitmen77
06-08-2006, 11:49 PM
So, I guess this was a poor enough showing by the Sox that Homefish doesn't get banned.

PeoriaSoxFan
06-08-2006, 11:52 PM
I won't disagree about Rob M. not being a CF, but consider this, Brian Anderson has the lowest batting average in the Majors right now, amongst players with 100 or more bats. The next closest players is at 173 vs. BA's 158. He needs to develop. Time to make a trade.

QCIASOXFAN
06-08-2006, 11:56 PM
This was a "good loss" because it really crystallizes the issue.

Maco is not a centerfielder, plain and simple. No team can contend for championships with a centerfielder hitting a buck-fifty, so Anderson is out. There is no one currently capable in the minor league system.

Ergo, it's time for KW to get busy. There is no such thing as a "good loss".

SouthSide_HitMen
06-08-2006, 11:57 PM
I'm trying to diffuse some of the Mackowiak 'bashing'.

It's not his fault that he's playing out of position. He was brought here to upgrade the bench, not to be a starting CF. I'm sure he's doing his best out there; I can't fault him.

Mackowiak's a solid player and is servicable at several positions. CF is not one of them.

I agree. Playing Mackowiak everyday is as stupid as bringing Jenks in everyday in the 6th inning to close out the game. Ozzie has some problem with Anderson and he is either too stubborn or pissed off to give Anderson a legitmate shot.

I don't understand these ultimatums over the past few weeks that Anderson has to improve at the plate or he will be demoted when he gets 1 or 2 starts a week.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7489

May 17 - 23: 2 starts, 5 at bats
May 24 - 30; 3 starts, 8 at bats
May 31 - June 8 (8 games): 3 starts, 10 at bats

23 at bats in 21 games. You are not going to turn anything around with as puny opportunity Ozzie has given Brian over the past month.

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 11:57 PM
I won't disagree about Rob M. not being a CF, but consider this, Brian Anderson has the lowest batting average in the Majors right now, amongst players with 100 or more bats. The next closest players is at 173 vs. BA's 158. He needs to develop. Time to make a trade.BA should not in any way be involved in that trade, unless it's an absolute blockbuster (Vernon Wells type)....which won't happen.

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 11:59 PM
23 at bats in a month in 21 games. :o:

beckett21
06-08-2006, 11:59 PM
I didn't intend to bash Mack. I think he's a very valuable utility player. However, he's a utility guy for a reason- he's not good enough to have been given a starting job (nor has he won one) in spring training.

And no doubt, he was here to play 3B, RF, and LF. He wasn't supposed to be the starting CF- it's not his fault at all.

I didn't mean to imply that you were. Sorry if you took it that way. That was just meant as a general statement in regards to people getting down on him for his miscues.

It's not his fault that BA's not hitting. If Anderson was batting his weight, this would be a non-issue because he would be playing instead of Mackowiak.

TornLabrum
06-09-2006, 12:11 AM
Once again, one of the question marks I mentioned before the season started comes back again to bite us: Breaking camp with three outfielders when you have an unproven rookie in centerfield. I never want to see Mackowiak start in CF again (nor do I ever want to see Ozuna in LF).

Whoever asked why Paulie should have thrown to the plate when the third out was at first base? He posed waiting for a call (and he was safe) while a guy scored from second on an infield hit. That is a brain fart. Period.

Brian26
06-09-2006, 12:14 AM
Amen brother! If we aren't going out and getting a veteran or giving another minor leaguer a shot at CF, put Brian in. It should still be tied at 2.

Kenny Rogers and the bullpen shut down the Sox for 18 straight batters before Pods got that walk. The Sox didn't get a hit after they had one out in the 2nd. Mack made some bad plays out there tonight, but you have to tip your hat to Kenny Rogers.

Overall, just a crappy game.

Brian26
06-09-2006, 12:15 AM
? He posed waiting for a call (and he was safe) while a guy scored from second on an infield hit. That is a brain fart. Period.

Yep. The runner at first was absolutely safe.

beckett21
06-09-2006, 12:19 AM
Kenny Rogers and the bullpen shut down the Sox for 18 straight batters before Pods got that walk. The Sox didn't get a hit after they had one out in the 2nd. Mack made some bad plays out there tonight, but you have to tip your hat to Kenny Rogers.

Overall, just a crappy game.

Agreed.

Plenty of blame to go around on this one. Time to go take it out on Cleveland. :cool:

infohawk
06-09-2006, 12:19 AM
The thing about Garland that concerns me most is this...he's reverted back to giving up a 'big inning,' and even worse in my opinion many of these innings this season are taking place when he's got two outs.

I can recall at least three times this season, where with two outs, suddenly things falls apart.

Lip
The argument about poor centerfield defense as the reason for the loss is noted, and may very well be the case tonight. However, my main concern with Jon is the fact that he is a sinkerballer but seems to be throwing an inordinate number of flyballs instead of grounders, even when he is having them recorded for outs. When Jon is going well, he is getting lots of groundouts. I don't know if he is featuring more fastballs and change-ups or what, but I want to know why he's getting so many flyballs - many of which are leaving the yard.

QCIASOXFAN
06-09-2006, 12:21 AM
Agreed.

Plenty of blame to go around on this one. Time to go take it out on Cleveland. :cool: I am definitely ready to return the favor to the Indians and punish them at the cell.

infohawk
06-09-2006, 12:23 AM
Thanks, doc. This is exactly the point. Mack is a utility player- always has been, always will be. If he was better than that, he would have been an everyday player somewhere starting the season. If KW wants to make a trade, fine, otherwise at least make sure the guy in CF is making the correct plays.
I think it's important that we not blame Rob. He's doing his best but is being asked to play somewhere where he just shouldn't be. I'm with the "play Anderson for his defense" or "find a legitimate centerfielder" crowd.

eurotrash35
06-09-2006, 12:25 AM
I think it's important that we not blame Rob. He's doing his best but is being asked to play somewhere where he just shouldn't be. I'm with the "play Anderson for his defense" or "find a legitimate centerfielder" crowd.

There really isn't anything else to do. Sacrificing defense for marginal offensive improvement is not what we're all about.

TornLabrum
06-09-2006, 12:27 AM
It's going to be really interesting hearing what Ozzie has to say about the matter at the WCSF luncheon tomorrow. If what he has to say isn't newsletter material (and hence reserved for that), I'll report back here. (You know someone's going to bring it up.)

MERPER
06-09-2006, 12:31 AM
Mackowiak should NOT be starting in centerfield. I've seen enough of his terrible defense blowing game after game after game. Not only that, but he's not doing anything better than Brian would at the plate.

If he is paying attention, I-Roid doesn't advance on the play in the 6th. Who knows what happens then. Brian's defense is essential, it means more to this team than Mackowiak's spectacular offense.

Brian said it best himself, his offensive woes lately have been because bad pitch selection. Until a new centerfielder comes along that can play defense, Brian needs to be starting. Enough of Mackowiak, he is NOT a centerfielder and he shows it every single day.

I COMPLETELY AGREE!!! Ozzie is being hypocritical here, claiming defense is the most important thing yet playing Mack out there... That being said, we can't afford 2 automatic outs at the end of the game.... I blame Uribe more than anything as he can produce better, while we were counting on Anderson for much... the solution is Anderson plays center and Cintron plays SS

Frankfan4life
06-09-2006, 12:32 AM
Kenny Rogers was on his game today and had the offense stymied for most of the game. I'll happily take the series win and hope that the Sox are ready to whup the tar out of the Jnjuns tomorrow, especially since I'm going to the game.

GO SOX!!

beckett21
06-09-2006, 12:33 AM
It's going to be really interesting hearing what Ozzie has to say about the matter at the WCSF luncheon tomorrow. If what he has to say isn't newsletter material (and hence reserved for that), I'll report back here. (You know someone's going to bring it up.)

That would be great.

peeonwrigley
06-09-2006, 12:50 AM
I watched the last 1/2 of the game with some friends at Duffy's tonight (some of you will be happy to hear that McCarthy and Anderson were not there).

There was a solo act playing guitar and singing on stage... playing lots of good tunes. I don't know if it was coincidence or not, but after the Tigers lifted Rogers the bastard played "The Gambler." It seems random, but it is a Michigan bar, so who knows.

I wish Garland would have had the generous plate Kenny Rogers had tonight. I also wish some Sox players (namely Thome, Iguchi) would adjust better to how umpires are calling games and fight off pitches that are just outside the zone.

0o0o0
06-09-2006, 12:59 AM
i'm glad other people can look past the box score and not just blame jon for a loss. the defense, mainly CF, let the team down today.
:rolleyes: Yeah, cause it definitely wasn't having one base runner in the last 7 innings.

And what was Mackowiak thinking giving up those homers. Gimme a break. Mistakes happen, pitch around them.

0o0o0
06-09-2006, 01:07 AM
Yep, Mack-o-Wack needs to wear this one. I'm not ready to say Garland's turned the corner, but he's pitching way better. Eliminate the HRs, and he's good to go.
:?:

Uhhhh....

Eliminate Mackowiak's poor defense and he's a great defender.

Chicken Dinner
06-09-2006, 01:13 AM
More excuses.

Why should Konerko throw home if the guy the is out at first? That would have been the third out, and Konerko had to look at the ump to see what the call was.

Konerko should not just assume the runner would be safe and force a throw home.
Oh yeah, if Guillen is held at third, that makes Thames' homer a 3 run jack instead of two.

What?????????? Why would you assume that the play is over. Like PK is going to throw out his arm by playing smart and throwing to home?

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-09-2006, 01:14 AM
:rolleyes: Yeah, cause it definitely wasn't having one base runner in the last 7 innings.

And what was Mackowiak thinking giving up those homers. Gimme a break. Mistakes happen, pitch around them.
THANK YOU. I'm sick of hearing "oh none of this is jon's fault!"
Good players get over mistakes, move on, and don't let the opposing team take advantage of them.
Mabye there are some bad plays out there, but get over it.

oeo
06-09-2006, 01:18 AM
THANK YOU. I'm sick of hearing "oh none of this is jon's fault!"
Good players get over mistakes, move on, and don't let the opposing team take advantage of them.
Mabye there are some bad plays out there, but get over it.

Of course he threw the pitches. But give me a break when you say that Jon Garland is a terrible pitcher and should be shipped out. Just as much blame should go on Mackowiak as Garland, because if Mackowiak makes good plays, then the game is tied at 2-2 going to the bottom of the 6th. To be a "good player", you also need your team to back you up. And Mackowiak made not one, but TWO mistakes in a row (second one throwing over the cutoff man).

You don't give teams extra outs, and that's exactly what they did. Any "good player" could have done the same thing Jon did. What we need is our best defensive players behind him, AKA our starters.

Chicken Dinner
06-09-2006, 01:22 AM
You don't give teams extra outs, and that's exactly what they did. Any "good player" could have done the same thing Jon did. What we need is our best defensive players behind him, AKA our starters.

How did that play give them an extra out?? All I saw was it gave them an extra run.

0o0o0
06-09-2006, 01:26 AM
Of course he threw the pitches. But give me a break when you say that Jon Garland is a terrible pitcher and should be shipped out. Just as much blame should go on Mackowiak as Garland, because if Mackowiak makes good plays, then the game is tied at 2-2 going to the bottom of the 6th. To be a "good player", you also need your team to back you up. And Mackowiak made not one, but TWO mistakes in a row (second one throwing over the cutoff man).

You don't give teams extra outs, and that's exactly what they did. Any "good player" could have done the same thing Jon did. What we need is our best defensive players behind him, AKA our starters.
I don't think anywhere is defending Mackowiak, so much as not excusing Garland.

oeo
06-09-2006, 01:33 AM
How did that play give them an extra out?? All I saw was it gave them an extra run.

Well, depends on how you look at it. Was I-Roid committed to taking second no matter what, or was it dumbass Mackowiak that made that decision for him? Either way, we get an out to end the inning there, or there's 2 outs with I-Roid on first and Jon is in good shape to finish off the inning.

Instead dumbass Mackowiak is not paying attention, catches the ball like he did something great, and finally throws it in and misses I-Roid. Bringing I-Roid into scoring position and forever changing the game.

Chicken Dinner
06-09-2006, 01:40 AM
Well, depends on how you look at it. Was I-Roid committed to taking second no matter what, or was it dumbass Mackowiak that made that decision for him? Either way, we get an out to end the inning there, or there's 2 outs with I-Roid on first and Jon is in good shape to finish off the inning.

Instead dumbass Mackowiak is not paying attention, catches the ball like he did something great, and finally throws it in and misses I-Roid. Bringing I-Roid into scoring position and forever changing the game.

There were 2 singles and a homer after that play. You can't assume that there would be an out. The bottom line is that Jon couldn't finish the job.

getonbckthr
06-09-2006, 01:58 AM
Quick question how do you learn how to hit major league pitching?
Answer- By trying to hit it. Brian should be out there every single day and learn the pitchers. Experience is the best way of learning.

DachnoPiitu
06-09-2006, 02:05 AM
I was at the game and I'm sure it's been said but NO ONE was warming up in the bullpen as Garland began to fall apart. And as his pitch count continued to rise, still no one was warming up in the bullpen. Garland gave up some big runs but Ozzie needed to pull him much earlier... and the Sox need to score runs. Garland does need to "calm down" but Ozzie needs to manage. Garland works once every four, five or six days, Ozzie manages all the games and needs to recognize the need to warm up relievers and to pull Garland when he falters.:angry:

And now a small rant which may get me banned:

I AM TIRED OF Chris the Ranger on the Score making excuses for poor execution. Chris, the average listening audience knows that "You win some; you lose some." Please cut the positive atitude. When a team plays poorly, recognize it. The only thing remotely negative from him I have ever heard is how "Oh well he didn't have his stuff today/tonight.":?: Quit the excuses. If they sucked today, which they did, agree with the callers who can recognize BAD BASEBALL. ANYTHING NEGATIVE SAID IS FOLLOWED BY "I DON'T THINK THAT..." All I heard from him tonight was "I don't think that __________ ." Admit it Chris, you don't think period. Players have bad games; teams have bad games; just say it: THEY SUCKED TONIGHT. "OH WELL GEE GOSH UM THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE IT TONIGHT." NO REALLY??? :rolleyes: I kinda noticed when they only scored two ****ing runs. I liked that other station that had a postgame show that offered some insight more than "LET'S HOPE HE PLAYS BETTER TOMORROW." Oh and Chris... Grass is green, the sky is blue, you suck more than a Dyson vacuum. THANKS FOR THE CALL YUTZ :gulp:

There are no dark clouds here, so please don't start with that nonsense.
SO TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW

ilsox7
06-09-2006, 02:08 AM
I was at the game and I'm sure it's been said but NO ONE was warming up in the bullpen as Garland began to fall apart. And as his pitch count continued to rise, still no one was warming up in the bullpen. Garland gave up some big runs but Ozzie needed to pull him much earlier... and the Sox need to score runs. Garland does need to "calm down" but Ozzie needs to manage. Garland works once every four, five or six days, Ozzie manages all the games and needs to recognize the need to warm up relievers and to pull Garland when he falters.:angry:



:?:

In the inning, Jon gave up a bloop single which scored and run and a weak infield hit to score the 2nd run of the inning. You really think he should have been pulled after making good pitches and getting the hitter to hit it weakly?

DachnoPiitu
06-09-2006, 02:28 AM
I hope I am not "hijacking" the thread...
Firstly thank you very much for the reply.:smile:

From where I was sitting, 535, I could see Jon doing what he has done in the past. It's not one hit, two hits, its several runs. Maybe it's just me and I'm very wrong... It was visible that he could not get his **** together. My biggest concern was no one was warming up and Ozzie could not calm him down. Now everytime something goes wrong I don't immediately look to the bullpen.
"And I ain't never seen no queen in her damned undies, so the feller says."
But as of late, Jon needs to be pulled if not at the first sign of trouble, but the second or third... HOW MANY CHANCES CAN YOU GIVE HIM?
Based on our offense of late and Jon's outings of late, yes I would have pulled him but wait there needs to be good relief pitching. It just seemed to me that Ozzie didn't care to win this one or at least if he did someone would have been warming up. And I want to be clear that I do not think Jon is a bad pitcher or that Ozzie is a bad manager (WELL COURSE NOT I LOVE IT THE SOX). Mistakes were being made and from where I was sitting fuel was added to a long blazing fire.
That's all i got :(:
GO SOX:redface:

ilsox7
06-09-2006, 02:37 AM
I hope I am not "hijacking" the thread...
Firstly thank you very much for the reply.:smile:

From where I was sitting, 535, I could see Jon doing what he has done in the past. It's not one hit, two hits, its several runs. Maybe it's just me and I'm very wrong... It was visible that he could not get his **** together. My biggest concern was no one was warming up and Ozzie could not calm him down. Now everytime something goes wrong I don't immediately look to the bullpen.
"And I ain't never seen no queen in her damned undies, so the feller says."
But as of late, Jon needs to be pulled if not at the first sign of trouble, but the second or third... HOW MANY CHANCES CAN YOU GIVE HIM?
Based on our offense of late and Jon's outings of late, yes I would have pulled him but wait there needs to be good relief pitching. It just seemed to me that Ozzie didn't care to win this one or at least if he did someone would have been warming up. And I want to be clear that I do not think Jon is a bad pitcher or that Ozzie is a bad manager (WELL COURSE NOT I LOVE IT THE SOX). Mistakes were being made and from where I was sitting fuel was added to a long blazing fire.
That's all i got :(:
GO SOX:redface:

I disagree. I thought Jon pitched well up until the HR that made it 6-2. His change-up was fooling everyone. He was inducing weakly hit balls that just happened to find a hole. It was bad luck, more than anything, up until the nail in the coffin.

TheOldRoman
06-09-2006, 02:38 AM
Well you should be worried more about the centerfield problem than Garland. Jon will be fine, he pitched stellar...and if it wasn't for terrible defense behind him, he would have won that game.
:?:
Maybe you were watching a different game. At the game I was watching (I was at the park), I saw the Sox offense put up little to no effort against a mediocre pitcher. I guess today was as good a time as any for Garland to crap himself and Mackowiak to make horrible plays. We weren't winning this game no matter what. The offense was absolutely horrible. I couldn't see the pitch location, but it looked like more of the Sox getting themselves out. They took weak swings at garbage, and then took anything close, despite what appeared to be a large strikezone.
Question: were the strike zones consistant? The Sox got a lot of called strikes, and it looked like Garland wasn't getting many calls on pitches that looked close (at least from the RF upperdeck).

I am sick and tired of our pitchers wasting pitches. Nobody is going deep into games anymore. I look up in the 5th inning, and Garland had over 80 pitches already. There is absolutely no excuse for that. During Vazquez' two hit gem on Memorial Day, he managed the throw 100 pitches over 6 innings. Our pitchers aren't putting hitters away. They get ahead, then throw BP garbage at the edges for the hitters to easily foul off, and end up throwing a ball between every two or three fouls. I have seen that script over and over again this year, and it almost always ends with our pitcher walking the batter after he hits 5 or 6 foul balls or so. That needs to stop.

Side rant: The homeplate umpire was a piece of crap. I hate more than anything else when umpires take 4 seconds to call a ****ing strike. The ball hit the catcher's glove, he paused for a few seconds, then leaned back, and made the strike call a few seconds later. His motion (watch pitch, pause, slowly lean back) was the same for balls and strikes, so he had everyone watching him to see if he was going to raise his arm when he finally leaned back.
To me, that is showboating. The umpire wants to be a big shot, the center of attention. He wants to be the star of the game, with everybody focusing on him. There is absolutely no reason why an umpire would need 4-5 seconds to decide if the pitch was a strike or not. As soon as the ball hits the glove, I want to see an arm motion of some sort. MLB needs to tell that clown that he is not the star of the show; people do not pay to see him call balls and strikes.

oeo
06-09-2006, 02:38 AM
There were 2 singles and a homer after that play. You can't assume that there would be an out. The bottom line is that Jon couldn't finish the job.
I can't assume an out, but they still had plenty of chances to get that out. Mackowiak's lolly-gagging cost us an out, and then the slow roller to Uribe...Konerko had plenty of time to fire home to get the out. And if Mackowiak doesn't miss the cut-off man on the bloop single that scored I-Roid, that run wouldn't even have scored. But anyway, Thames should have never even seen an at-bat if they were playing smart.

IronFisk
06-09-2006, 02:39 AM
I'm about done with "big inning Garland"! With that salary, he'll be around for a while in the rotation, but he IS the Weakest Link!

http://studio8.net/images/Articles/weakest-link.jpg

GOODBYE!

DachnoPiitu
06-09-2006, 02:54 AM
I thought Jon pitched well up until the HR that made it 6-2. It was bad luck, more than anything, up until the nail in the coffin.

Jon pitched fine, the nail in the coffin is SOX inability to score runs or to only score runs via the long ball and this is why Jon needs to go at the first sign... unless SOX are up 8 runs (and maybe it's just me) I don't feel comfortable with Jon in there when disaster looms (especially against that Tigers lineup). With SOX offense of late one run is a disaster; two runs a catastrophe. In April I was singing a different tune which went something like Iguchi, Thome, Konerko, Dye, Pierzynski, Crede. Sox have some BIG CONTENDERS coming up that would like nothing more than to put these defending champs on their butts. If the Sox want to keep second, quality offense and defense are a must as well as the foresight to stop it at 1 or 2 runs...
thanks again

Trav
06-09-2006, 03:06 AM
So who wins the Homefish bet?

gobears1987
06-09-2006, 03:12 AM
have you even seen his past two starts?!and what can you say about his other starts this year? Garland has always given good starts on occasion, but he then has an equal number of bad games. He's a .500 pitcher, but he should be much more.

Grzegorz
06-09-2006, 06:13 AM
I don't care about Garland's other starts earlier in the year. All I care about is the here and now. Mac is not a CF'er; until this situation is addressed this team will continue to suffer because of poor defense.

It's not Mac faulty; he's not a CF'er. A team can play their players out of position from time to time and succeed. This is the exception not the rule.

The pitching will hold, the defense will not. Address the defensive question...

wassagstdu
06-09-2006, 07:42 AM
Why should Konerko throw home if the guy the is out at first?

You're kidding, right? The batter was safe at first by about 3 steps. The runner on third should have waited to see the call at first so he wouldn't waste a trip home, right?

.

Bobbo35
06-09-2006, 08:06 AM
Mackowiak should NOT be starting in centerfield. I've seen enough of his terrible defense blowing game after game after game. Not only that, but he's not doing anything better than Brian would at the plate.

If he is paying attention, I-Roid doesn't advance on the play in the 6th. Who knows what happens then. Brian's defense is essential, it means more to this team than Mackowiak's spectacular offense.

Brian said it best himself, his offensive woes lately have been because bad pitch selection. Until a new centerfielder comes along that can play defense, Brian needs to be starting. Enough of Mackowiak, he is NOT a centerfielder and he shows it every single day.

I second that statement and that is exactly what is happening tonight as Anderson is starting in center field. Ya, Rob just does not have the instincts to play center, sort of looks like Ozuna in left. Anderson would have had made those plays last night and we would have talking about a White Sox Winner.

On to the Tribe!!

EdHerman12
06-09-2006, 08:20 AM
Well you should be worried more about the centerfield problem than Garland. Jon will be fine, he pitched stellar...and if it wasn't for terrible defense behind him, he would have won that game.

Yeah.....and we sure looked like the 1927 Yankees hitting up there right?

Of course I'm worried about CF, but a TEAM loses a game...not 1 player!

GO SOX!

TornLabrum
06-09-2006, 08:31 AM
I was at the game and I'm sure it's been said but NO ONE was warming up in the bullpen as Garland began to fall apart. And as his pitch count continued to rise, still no one was warming up in the bullpen. Garland gave up some big runs but Ozzie needed to pull him much earlier... and the Sox need to score runs. Garland does need to "calm down" but Ozzie needs to manage. Garland works once every four, five or six days, Ozzie manages all the games and needs to recognize the need to warm up relievers and to pull Garland when he falters.:angry:

And now a small rant which may get me banned:

I AM TIRED OF Chris the Ranger on the Score making excuses for poor execution. Chris, the average listening audience knows that "You win some; you lose some." Please cut the positive atitude. When a team plays poorly, recognize it. The only thing remotely negative from him I have ever heard is how "Oh well he didn't have his stuff today/tonight.":?: Quit the excuses. If they sucked today, which they did, agree with the callers who can recognize BAD BASEBALL. ANYTHING NEGATIVE SAID IS FOLLOWED BY "I DON'T THINK THAT..." All I heard from him tonight was "I don't think that __________ ." Admit it Chris, you don't think period. Players have bad games; teams have bad games; just say it: THEY SUCKED TONIGHT. "OH WELL GEE GOSH UM THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE IT TONIGHT." NO REALLY??? :rolleyes: I kinda noticed when they only scored two ****ing runs. I liked that other station that had a postgame show that offered some insight more than "LET'S HOPE HE PLAYS BETTER TOMORROW." Oh and Chris... Grass is green, the sky is blue, you suck more than a Dyson vacuum. THANKS FOR THE CALL YUTZ :gulp:

There are no dark clouds here, so please don't start with that nonsense.
SO TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW

I know it's lonely out there on that ledge, but let me ask you one thing: How does the Sox' record compare with other teams in baseball. Exactly how many of those losses you're griping about do they have. How many do the other teams in baseball (other than Detroit) have. The Sox took the series and gained a game on the Tiggers.

OH, WAIT! THERE ARE ONLY 103 GAMES LEFT TO PLAY! I TAKE BACK EVERYTHING I SAID. TIME TO PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

0o0o0
06-09-2006, 08:50 AM
And now a small rant which may get me banned:

I AM TIRED OF Chris the Ranger on the Score making excuses for poor execution. Chris, the average listening audience knows that "You win some; you lose some." Please cut the positive atitude. When a team plays poorly, recognize it. The only thing remotely negative from him I have ever heard is how "Oh well he didn't have his stuff today/tonight.":?:
:nod: I'm not the biggest fan of his "analysis." He doesn't say anything that my 7 yr old sister couldn't point out. I find that there's much better post game coverage on WSI.:cool:

stl_sox_fan
06-09-2006, 09:03 AM
Sox need to figure out how to hit those soft tossing lefties better. Rogers, Moyer, Santana...they all seem to have the Sox number. Mark Redmond lost to the Sox but still had a decent outing against them(6 hits-7 innings).

digdagdug23
06-09-2006, 09:09 AM
I know it's lonely out there on that ledge, but let me ask you one thing: How does the Sox' record compare with other teams in baseball. Exactly how many of those losses you're griping about do they have. How many do the other teams in baseball (other than Detroit) have. The Sox took the series and gained a game on the Tiggers.

OH, WAIT! THERE ARE ONLY 103 GAMES LEFT TO PLAY! I TAKE BACK EVERYTHING I SAID. TIME TO PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I grow up I wanna be just like YOU! Your optimism always pulls me from the thought of going to the ledge. I need you on my speed dial list for those tough days at work.

:worship:

Baby Fisk
06-09-2006, 10:17 AM
Some sober reflections on last night's game:


1. I can't believe there hasn't been any mention in this thread of Joey Cora snuffing out a big first inning with his reckless approach to baserunning. Two games in a row now, Cora has demonstrated his maniacal devotion to aggressive baserunning is as strong as it ever was. It worked on Wednesday when the Tigers fielder bobbled the ball, but last night it burned the Sox. As soon as Dye rounded third, who among you didn't think he would be dead on arrival at the plate? *** was Cora thinking? Where is the outrage? This was a closely fought series, with both teams fighting to score runs. Every run in this series seemed to be a crucial run, and we had a chance to blow this game open in the first. If Dye stays at third, you've got Pierzynski on second and Crede coming to the plate to face a Kenny Rogers who was growing frustrated. Joey Cora's recklessness snuffed out the rally and in my opinion set the tone for the rest of the game. Rogers was off the hook and the Sox never scored again.

2. Macko, Macko, Macko... [*long, heavy sigh*] Watching Macko play the outfield reminds me what I would prolly look like playing outfield. Extremely shakey anytime anything gets hit that way.

3. As alluded to by LipMan, Garland's most recent starts have seen him revert to the "One Big Inning" days of yore. He escaped from Toronto with a win, but this time the Tigers got to him. Once Macko's sleepy defence opened the gates, the Tigers went on a rampage and Garland couldn't stop them. Cooper needs to start yelling at him again.

4. On a positive note, that was a nice couple of innings by Tracey. Too bad he couldn't take a few at-bats, as the rest of the team seemed to fall under the mesmerizing powers of Kenny Rogers. Once Joey Cora allowed him to escape the first inning with minimal damage, the hobby pugilist owned the Sox. It was sad to watch, but let's take it out on the Toons.

Thanks and GO SOX.

samram
06-09-2006, 10:24 AM
I think it's important that we not blame Rob. He's doing his best but is being asked to play somewhere where he just shouldn't be. I'm with the "play Anderson for his defense" or "find a legitimate centerfielder" crowd.

I don't know how my post could be read as blaming Rob. I said he's a utility player- that right there lets him off the hook for having to play a position that isn't his best. My bigger problem is with those who think he should be out there in CF everyday because he hits better than BA.

soxrme
06-09-2006, 10:35 AM
So can we say the consensus is: give BA another chance at CF, let Jon off the hook for the loss, hope Crede is back at third, and tell Cora to be a little less aggressive when it is clear no one will score?

Ozzie said he thought Rogers would be too much for BA. We have to go with his judgement on that. I was at the game last night and no one could believe that Cora sent Dye. It was bad judgement that he has done before. We could have possibly knocked out Rogers in the first item.

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 10:43 AM
Why is everyone saying that Jon's outing sucked? You can't just look at the box score and get the whole story. Ozzie even said that Jon pitched pretty good. He pitched seven innings and he pitched inside a lot.

and he wasn't getting the strikes called on the inside on the righties

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 10:49 AM
I'm afraid you can look at the box score and get the whole story Jon has given up 18or19HRs this year and Ozzie said that because he knows Jon is weak and if he calls him out he will shatter any confidence he has. His outting did suck, he can't pitch over defensive lapses, its pathetic. .

Ozzie's the one who built Jon's confidence by leaving him in through jams from his 1st few games at the helm 2 years ago, and is still trying to do more of the same, leaving Jon in last night even after the big inning he came back and pitched a good 7th

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 10:59 AM
.

I don't understand these ultimatums over the past few weeks that Anderson has to improve at the plate or he will be demoted when he gets 1 or 2 starts a week.
May 17 - 23: 2 starts, 5 at bats
May 24 - 30; 3 starts, 8 at bats
May 31 - June 8 (8 games): 3 starts, 10 at bats

23 at bats in 21 games. You are not going to turn anything around with as puny opportunity Ozzie has given Brian over the past month.

He really hasn't been given the chance after the 1st 5 weeks, and benching hasn't helped him mentally, either play him regularly or send him down for a month and put the big hole in your D in CF

SBSoxFan
06-09-2006, 11:26 AM
1. Mak is not the answer in center. It seems every time Mak is out there, the ball finds him in some critical situation that turns the tide of the game. BA needs to play everyday until he hits or sends himself back to Charlotte.

2. Garland threw well and still gave up 6 runs. :(: His change was nasty.

3. Would it kill Pods to try a drag bunt? He's not hitting well, the left-handed pitcher is falling towards 3rd base, and Sheltons not exactly spry out there at first. In the top of the 2nd, Shelton was playing way behind the runner at first. Worse case is that the Sox get two runners in scoring position for gooch.

Having said that, they did take 2 out of 3. Now let's take 2 of 3 from Cleveland while Detroit loses at least 2 in Toronto.

The Sox have beat Detroit 3 times this year by a score of 4-3. It looks like Detroit is shaping up to be the 2005 Indians for the Sox. The Sox will dominate the season series against Detroit, winning several close games, which will make the difference as the Sox win their second straight division title. :)

jongarlandlover
06-09-2006, 11:39 AM
Alright, I've had a bit of time to calm down now...

We need BA out there in CF. I do NOT want Macko out there EVERY GAME. His defense is not up to par, as evident in last night's game. If BA gets sent down then Macko is the CF and Pablo is the back-up. That's a problem. So, either Ozzie lets BA play or we trade for a CF. And someone on here did say that he only has, what, 23 at-bats in 21 games? How exactly is he expected to get better with that kind of playing time?!

Also, Jon did make a some mistakes last night, I will not deny that. But the defense was not there to back him up either. He pitched well, look at the first 5 innings and then the 7th. The one inning with the horrible, horrible play by Macko makes his whole outing look bad when it really wasn't. And for people complaining about his 6+ ERA, his first two starts really ballooned that ERA up, it should probably be somewhere around 4 - 5.

Okay, I'm done ranting for right now.

Jerko
06-09-2006, 11:45 AM
If all of Garland's problems are "in his mind", I wonder if he's putting extra pressure on himself because he's the 4th starter instead of the 5th starter?? I doubt it, but if he's so mentally fragile, one has to wonder. :dunno:

SouthSide_HitMen
06-09-2006, 11:48 AM
Some sober reflections on last night's game:


1. I can't believe there hasn't been any mention in this thread of Joey Cora snuffing out a big first inning with his reckless approach to baserunning. Two games in a row now, Cora has demonstrated his maniacal devotion to aggressive baserunning is as strong as it ever was. It worked on Wednesday when the Tigers fielder bobbled the ball, but last night it burned the Sox. As soon as Dye rounded third, who among you didn't think he would be dead on arrival at the plate? *** was Cora thinking? Where is the outrage? This was a closely fought series, with both teams fighting to score runs. Every run in this series seemed to be a crucial run, and we had a chance to blow this game open in the first. If Dye stays at third, you've got Pierzynski on second and Crede coming to the plate to face a Kenny Rogers who was growing frustrated. Joey Cora's recklessness snuffed out the rally and in my opinion set the tone for the rest of the game. Rogers was off the hook and the Sox never scored again.

*cough* Dye was a dead duck at home in the first. It is one thing to be aggressive it is another to be stupid. Crede's play yesterday would have been dead as well if it weren't for the misplay. Cora needs to wake up as well. *cough*

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1174835&postcount=63

jandm859
06-09-2006, 11:52 AM
Mackowiak should NOT be starting in centerfield. I've seen enough of his terrible defense blowing game after game after game. Not only that, but he's not doing anything better than Brian would at the plate.

If he is paying attention, I-Roid doesn't advance on the play in the 6th. Who knows what happens then. Brian's defense is essential, it means more to this team than Mackowiak's spectacular offense.

Brian said it best himself, his offensive woes lately have been because bad pitch selection. Until a new centerfielder comes along that can play defense, Brian needs to be starting. Enough of Mackowiak, he is NOT a centerfielder and he shows it every single day.

Enough of both BA and RM- KW needs to deal

Baby Fisk
06-09-2006, 12:01 PM
*cough* Dye was a dead duck at home in the first. It is one thing to be aggressive it is another to be stupid. Crede's play yesterday would have been dead as well if it weren't for the misplay. Cora needs to wake up as well. *cough*

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1174835&postcount=63
Oops, sorry SSHM. :redface:

When the camera cut to Dye rounding third, I started yelling at the TV. It was like watching a car crash about to happen but being unable to stop it.

jandm859
06-09-2006, 12:01 PM
Why is it we're split on who should be in CF. Some people want BA others say RM i say neither one of them and help isnt coming from the minors -We cant have a guy who's hitting .160 in the lineup and we cant have a utility infielder playing center. KW needs to make a move and he will.

spiffie
06-09-2006, 12:10 PM
*cough* Dye was a dead duck at home in the first. It is one thing to be aggressive it is another to be stupid. Crede's play yesterday would have been dead as well if it weren't for the misplay. Cora needs to wake up as well. *cough*

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1174835&postcount=63
No one seemed to mind Joey's decision when it worked. Or throughout the entire 2005 season when his aggressiveness helped set the tone for the World Champs. Sometimes the guys are going to make a great play and get you. But you have to keep running and keep running and make that defense nervous. It's not like he was sending Konerko or Thome or AJ. Dye has good speed and if that throw is at all off line JD is going to score there. Defense made a great play is all.

Chicken Dinner
06-09-2006, 12:21 PM
If all of Garland's problems are "in his mind", I wonder if he's putting extra pressure on himself because he's the 4th starter instead of the 5th starter?? I doubt it, but if he's so mentally fragile, one has to wonder. :dunno:

Giving up an MLB leading 19 HR's will get into anyone's head. He's on pace to beat Berts record.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/home_runs_allowed_records.shtml

Baby Fisk
06-09-2006, 12:29 PM
No one seemed to mind Joey's decision when it worked. Or throughout the entire 2005 season when his aggressiveness helped set the tone for the World Champs. Sometimes the guys are going to make a great play and get you. But you have to keep running and keep running and make that defense nervous. It's not like he was sending Konerko or Thome or AJ. Dye has good speed and if that throw is at all off line JD is going to score there. Defense made a great play is all.
I minded it both nights. Crede was just as dead on Wednesday as Dye was last night. Aggressive baserunning is one thing, but these were both very bad calls. Dye punctuated it with his soft slide.

Anyway, it's done now and hopefully The Windmill has learned his lesson. Be bold and expect success, yes, but don't be ridiculous and expect the same.

SBSoxFan
06-09-2006, 12:41 PM
I minded it both nights. Crede was just as dead on Wednesday as Dye was last night. Aggressive baserunning is one thing, but these were both very bad calls. Dye punctuated it with his soft slide.

Anyway, it's done now and hopefully The Windmill has learned his lesson. Be bold and expect success, yes, but don't be ridiculous and expect the same.
The first night is debatable on whether Cora sent Crede because the ball was bobbled by the outfielder. That wasn't the case last night. I would expect major leaguers to properly execute a relay <insert Mack joke here> a large portion of the time. Apparently, based on his quote from last night, Ozzie doesn't think so:

I never will criticize my coaches because I always tell my coaches, 'Be aggressive. You're going to have more success than you're going to fail because a lot of things can happen.' The guy makes a good throw, the guy catches the ball, tags the guy and the umpire makes the right call.

"That's five or six things that can happen. You always will take your chances.
In retrospect, the way they were hitting Rogers early, it would have been better to have Crede batting with runners on 2nd and 3rd even though there were 2 outs. And let's not forget that gooch just missed a 3-run homer in the bottom of the second. The Sox had a chance to blow the game open early, but couldn't do it.

wassagstdu
06-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Crede was just as dead on Wednesday as Dye was last night. Aggressive baserunning is one thing, but these were both very bad calls. Dye punctuated it with his soft slide.

Guillen was dead too if PK had gone home without waiting for the ump's call at first. If Cora had held Dye, figure the chance that Crede would get a hit with men on 2nd and 3rd was about 25%. Two would score, so that option was worth 0.5 runs. What is the chance that Ordonez picks the ball up cleanly and hits Polanco, that Polanco makes a good relay, and that Rodriguez handles it cleanly? I'd say about 50%. Hindsight is 20:20.

.

hawkjt
06-09-2006, 03:53 PM
I lay this loss on the coaching staff as much as the players;

We are facing one of the toughest leftys in mlb and we start a lineup with 4 leftys? Pablo should have been in their for pods, BA for mack,.

Joey made a bad decision,no doubt about it. The nite before with crede he could have stoppped him if it is fielded cleanly. But with JD , maggs already had it in his hand when jd hit third, the relay throw was not that good and Irod had to move to his right to field it and still had time to get in position with JD at least 10-15 feet from the plate.
We hold JD then Joe gets up and singles like he did to lead off the 2nd inning, we lead 4-0. That is on Joey.

Nuff said about mack in center against a lefty that he had no shot at hitting at the plate, just like pods.

Garland made lot of quality pitches, a handful of bad ones. The tigers are a contact hitting team and had a ton of groundball basehits this week. I am concerned that Jon is giving up a lot of fly balls. wheres the sinker?

but that brings me to this umpire crew. There are two crews in this league that make me cringe and this is one of them. Wendelstat and Culpa's crews are just bad. Culpa,and Scott are bad behind the plate, Rogers was getting a wider plate than garland, very obvious, and on the checked swings they missed several against the sox this week. Iassonga is also a bad ump,lucky he did not go behind home in this series.

They did not cost us the games but they could have and they were just poor.

Now, after all that, 2of 3 against the tigers- not bad. Iguchi is slumping,Pods is slumping, Thome has been so-so and BA has been bad. Yet we are still right there. Thank god for JD,PK,AJ,Joe,and Alex- they have carried us this week.

SouthSideSoxFan
06-10-2006, 10:56 AM
Ozzie on Rob Mackowiak's play in center field (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTrH3tv7W4o) (link to video)