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Daver
02-05-2002, 07:05 PM
His lawsuit with Anthony Molina.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/02/05/beaning_lawsuit_ap/

Vsahajpal
02-05-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
His lawsuit with Anthony Molina.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/02/05/beaning_lawsuit_ap/

closure!

Fisk Fan
02-05-2002, 07:21 PM
"It was an accident. He never meant to hit him."

How can Christiansen say in one breath that he was timing his pitches, and in the next breath say that he did not mean to hit him? What a crock!

Vsahajpal
02-05-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
"It was an accident. He never meant to hit him."

How can Christiansen say in one breath that he was timing his pitches, and in the next breath say that he did not mean to hit him? What a crock!

He claimed he was trying to scare him under orders from the coach.

Incidentally, here are a few facts.


All witnesses to the injury state that Molina left the on deck circle on the third base side and proceeded around the catcher to the first base side all the while observing the pitches that Christensen was throwing.

While claims have been made that he was in the on deck circle he was clearly nowhere near either on deck circle.

Molina himself states, "I put on my batting gloves, got my helmet, got my bat, took two or three swings and began to walk around the back of the catcher. I stopped to let a pitch come in, then I went on to the other side and saw him throw two or three more."



and for those of you sickos...or prospective forensics experts I guess

-the ball that hit Molina was clocked at 91 mph
-blood on the field fixed Molina's position at 24 feet from home plate.

CerberusWG
02-05-2002, 07:41 PM
I would have charged this tool with assault and battery. There is NO excuse for doing that to someone. Maybe we should just invoke Hammurabi's Law and let us bean him in the face.

doublem23
02-05-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
I would have charged this tool with assault and battery. There is NO excuse for doing that to someone. Maybe we should just invoke Hammurabi's Law and let us bean him in the face.

He's on the Cubs... Isn't that punishment enough? Maybe if we wanted to be real cruel, we could force him to sign a lifetime contract...

AsInWreck
02-05-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
"It was an accident. He never meant to hit him."

How can Christiansen say in one breath that he was timing his pitches, and in the next breath say that he did not mean to hit him? What a crock!

Isn't that what all hitters do in the on deck circle?

czalgosz
02-05-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG

I would have charged this tool with assault and battery. There is NO excuse for doing that to someone. Maybe we should just invoke Hammurabi's Law and let us bean him in the face.


In the early days of baseball, that was considered common practice. A guy on the on-deck circle timing your pitches? Throw at him. A guy crowding the plate? Throw at him. Guy hits a home run? Throw at the next guy, and when the guys who hit the homer comes up again, throw at him. And remember, this was in the days before batting helmets. Of course, the flip side to that was that it was the days before DHs, too. If you wanted to dish it out, you had to be willing to take it. And through all this, the umpires wouldn't blink an eye. There were a lot fewer fights in those days, probably because they could throw beanballs.

Anyway, walking around the catcher to the other team's on-deck circle? What the hell was he thinking?

beausox
02-05-2002, 08:33 PM
This is what I hate about the Chicago media. Christensen has ice in his veins. He hestroyed a guys baseball career (regardless aof how well Molina would have done), he used a deadly weapon (91 mph fastball) with the intent to do bodily harm. Did he think it would just bounce off Molina like a nerf ball? Maybe he thought back to the good ol days of PE dodgeball. Either way using a deadly weapon to harm someone is assault.

IF THE WHITE SOX HAD DRAFTED HIM WE WOULD HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED. Yes he amy be a talented pitcher, but the Cubs drafted him and because they are owned by the Cubune, no one said a whole lot. If the Sox had drafted him we would have been bad mouthed by every media outlet in the midwest. Sometimes it pays to be a lovable loser. Regardless, I don't think I'd want him. Having someone like him cannot be good for team chemistry.

Viva Magglio
02-05-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by beausox
This is what I hate about the Chicago media. Christensen has ice in his veins. He hestroyed a guys baseball career (regardless aof how well Molina would have done), he used a deadly weapon (91 mph fastball) with the intent to do bodily harm. Did he think it would just bounce off Molina like a nerf ball? Maybe he thought back to the good ol days of PE dodgeball. Either way using a deadly weapon to harm someone is assault.

IF THE WHITE SOX HAD DRAFTED HIM WE WOULD HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED. Yes he amy be a talented pitcher, but the Cubs drafted him and because they are owned by the Cubune, no one said a whole lot. If the Sox had drafted him we would have been bad mouthed by every media outlet in the midwest. Sometimes it pays to be a lovable loser. Regardless, I don't think I'd want him. Having someone like him cannot be good for team chemistry.

Mike Murphy, of all people, rode the Cubs real hard for drafting this tool. In fact, Murph still calls him "Beanball Ben."

And I think you're right about how the media would react. In fact, didn't we get more heat for signing Wil Cordero than the Cubs did for drafting Beanball Ben?

cheeses_h_rice
02-05-2002, 09:18 PM
:knue :moron :giangreco

We extend a hearty WELCOME to the newest Cubbie-Wubbie, lovable Ben Christenson!!!

ExSoxFan
02-05-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


-blood on the field fixed Molina's position at 24 feet from home plate.

"JUUUUUUUUUUUUUST a bit outside! He nibbled at the corner and missed..."


Just to be fair, Hysteriotti did write more than one very critical column about the Cubs drafting this imbecile. I can rarely read an entire column from Jayhole, but he did show his "righteous moral outrage" when they drafted him. Of course, windsock that he is, if Benball wins a few games at the major-league level, Jayhole will probably write about how he "turned his life around" and he "learned from a regrettable situation" and that "he was just a kid, and who didn't do foolish things when we were young?" and all that prattle...

Hysteriotti is AWFUL.

pearso66
02-05-2002, 09:54 PM
ok first off, this ben christianson obviously threw at him.. it states later in the article that their coaches taught them to throw at people if they looked like they were timing their pitches. and ben states that molina was timing his pitches.
2nd, if he states he did it on accident, ***, who throws the ball 24 feet from home plate on accident, is he the next wild thing from "Major League" ??
ben should have been charged with assult with a deadly weapon. its ridiculous that he got away with nothing

FarWestChicago
02-05-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
2nd, if he states he did it on accident, ***, who throws the ball 24 feet from home plate on accidentRick Ankiel?

doublem23
02-05-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Rick Ankiel?

He only gets that close to the plate on good days.

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 01:22 AM
This is the first I have read that Molina was not in the On-Deck circle. Not saying he deserved to be drilled when he wasn't expecting it - like when you are in the batters box (which is what Czalgosz is talking about), but man the rules are pretty clear about where people are allowed to be while waiting to bat. You can't just walk around behind the catcher.

Besides, 24 feet from home plate - how many of those were off to the side and how many were behind the plate? If you draw a box with the top edge at the front of the plate and one corner of the box on the top far corner of the plate (in relation to where Molina was hit) and make the diagonal opposite corner of the box the point where Molina was hit, what is the width and height of the box? Was he 20 feet outside and only 10 feet back or was he 10 feet outside and 20 feet back (20*20 + 10*10 = 500, 24*24 = 496 (I new that pythagorean theorem would come in handy some day)). Again, I am not sayin that Christensen's action are right, but if Molina was just a couple of feet outside and was almost standing behind home plate, it changes the dynamics of the story.

Either way, Christensen messed up. Still, I blame it as much on the coach who taught him to do it and less on the mind of a competitive teenager who was following coaches instructions. Yeah, he could have ignored the coach and just gone on pitching, but a guy like this (destined for a professional baseball career) is competative to a fault and has been taught to be that way.

Again, I am not saying it was correct, or proper, but there are other ways of looking at it then making this guy into Jack the Ripper.

RichH55
02-06-2002, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This is the first I have read that Molina was not in the On-Deck circle. Not saying he deserved to be drilled when he wasn't expecting it - like when you are in the batters box (which is what Czalgosz is talking about), but man the rules are pretty clear about where people are allowed to be while waiting to bat. You can't just walk around behind the catcher.

Besides, 24 feet from home plate - how many of those were off to the side and how many were behind the plate? If you draw a box with the top edge at the front of the plate and one corner of the box on the top far corner of the plate (in relation to where Molina was hit) and make the diagonal opposite corner of the box the point where Molina was hit, what is the width and height of the box? Was he 20 feet outside and only 10 feet back or was he 10 feet outside and 20 feet back (20*20 + 10*10 = 500, 24*24 = 496 (I new that pythagorean theorem would come in handy some day)). Again, I am not sayin that Christensen's action are right, but if Molina was just a couple of feet outside and was almost standing behind home plate, it changes the dynamics of the story.

Either way, Christensen messed up. Still, I blame it as much on the coach who taught him to do it and less on the mind of a competitive teenager who was following coaches instructions. Yeah, he could have ignored the coach and just gone on pitching, but a guy like this (destined for a professional baseball career) is competative to a fault and has been taught to be that way.

Again, I am not saying it was correct, or proper, but there are other ways of looking at it then making this guy into Jack the Ripper.

It doesnt change the dynamics of the story at all....he threw a fastball and hit him in the eye when he wasnt in the batters box....case closed...that just might be the worst thing Ive ever heard done on a field on play....Take the McSorely incident of a couple years ago and multiple it by 200....simply awful....No matter where Beanball Ben winds up, I will always cheer against him, to the point where i was nearly happy when I heard he had arm troubles. Why the hell does it matter if Molina was 2 feet outside of the batters box or 100? He hit him in the eye/face with a fastball nonetheless....I'm a forgiving guy and generally alot of guys in sports get a bad wrap(Belle, Bonds, McSorley), but this is simply the worst thing that I have ever heard in Sports.....How there is no major league ramifications or small prison term is beyond me.

And what is with this rationilzation by blaming Molina....assume what he did was outside of the rules....What is the proper course of action? How about complaining to an ump, the league, or worse comes to worse confronting Molina face to face rather than throwing at his head when there can be NO expectation that he could defend himself(like if he were in the batters box). Defending Christensen....dear lord, no one is responsible for anything ever again are they?

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by RichH55


It doesnt change the dynamics of the story at all....he threw a fastball and hit him in the eye when he wasnt in the batters box....case closed...that just might be the worst thing Ive ever heard done on a field on play....Take the McSorely incident of a couple years ago and multiple it by 200....simply awful....No matter where Beanball Ben winds up, I will always cheer against him, to the point where i was nearly happy when I heard he had arm troubles. Why the hell does it matter if Molina was 2 feet outside of the batters box or 100? He hit him in the eye/face with a fastball nonetheless....I'm a forgiving guy and generally alot of guys in sports get a bad wrap(Belle, Bonds, McSorley), but this is simply the worst thing that I have ever heard in Sports.....How there is no major league ramifications or small prison term is beyond me.

And what is with this rationilzation by blaming Molina....assume what he did was outside of the rules....What is the proper course of action? How about complaining to an ump, the league, or worse comes to worse confronting Molina face to face rather than throwing at his head when there can be NO expectation that he could defend himself(like if he were in the batters box). Defending Christensen....dear lord, no one is responsible for anything ever again are they?

No, I agree that Christensen must shoulder the burden of blame, but there are other factors at work, not the least of which involve Molina's actions, the coaching Christensen received (which taught him to take this action) and Christensen's age and temperment.

I don't believe he intended to injure Molina. It may have been misguided, childish and overly aggressive but I don't believe it was intended to maim Molina. I also belive that he would take it back in a heartbeat if he could.

RichH55
02-06-2002, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


No, I agree that Christensen must shoulder the burden of blame, but there are other factors at work, not the least of which involve Molina's actions, the coaching Christensen received (which taught him to take this action) and Christensen's age and temperment.

I don't believe he intended to injure Molina. It may have been misguided, childish and overly aggressive but I don't believe it was intended to maim Molina. I also belive that he would take it back in a heartbeat if he could.


I agree that he would take it back if he could, but that doesnt mean he can....Coach should be in trouble too, but why the emphasis on blaming Molina? Especially using the phrase "not the least of with".....his actions are nothing in comparison to beanball ben.......We are talking 99.9% blame to .1% of Molina...so I dont even think it is worthwhile to mention Molina except that he is the victim...plain and simple...this is still the worst thing Ive ever heard done on a field of play

Vsahajpal
02-06-2002, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by RichH55



I agree that he would take it back if he could, but that doesnt mean he can....Coach should be in trouble too, but why the emphasis on blaming Molina? Especially using the phrase "not the least of with".....his actions are nothing in comparison to beanball ben.......We are talking 99.9% blame to .1% of Molina...so I dont even think it is worthwhile to mention Molina except that he is the victim...plain and simple...this is still the worst thing Ive ever heard done on a field of play

I don't condone what Ben did at all, but it takes two to tango. Molina walked to the other side of the plate! He was close to the on-deck circle...the problem was, he was closer to Wichita State's ondeck circle. What the hell is he doing there? He's almost daring Ben to do something, for crying out loud. I believe Ben, I honestly don't think he meant to fracture the kid's eye socket. It was clearly a stupid thing to do, there's no question, but Ben is not the only person at fault.

As far as the Cubs not receiving any flack, that's just not true at all. They drafted Ben the summer of '99, and after the draft Mickey Morandini (who played 2b for the Cubs at the time) chastised management. And then there was this article, kind of twisted the facts to get his point across, but...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/19990723pease.html

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by RichH55



I agree that he would take it back if he could, but that doesnt mean he can....Coach should be in trouble too, but why the emphasis on blaming Molina? Especially using the phrase "not the least of with".....his actions are nothing in comparison to beanball ben.......We are talking 99.9% blame to .1% of Molina...so I dont even think it is worthwhile to mention Molina except that he is the victim...plain and simple...this is still the worst thing Ive ever heard done on a field of play

I blame Molina because what he did was not only illegal, it was outside the concept of good sportsmenship. While you are correct, that his actions are only minimally responsible while Christensen is majorly responsible, what Molina did was still wrong.

Maybe some of my attitude about this is that I have just learned that Molina bares ANY responsibility for this situation. I thought he was standing in his own on-deck circle and timing pitches. Meanwhile Christensen has been crucified as evil incarnate for this single horific act, which when viewed in a larger picture is NOT as bad as other acts that atheletes have perpetrated on a field of play, IMO. There have been tons of players (ie Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemans) who regularly through at opposing players for no other reason than they are mad. These guys have done their fair share of damage. Yes, Christensen went outside the lines of the rules of play, the concept of good sportsmenship AND the idea of playing fair. Still, it was one time. If the ball hits Molina in the arm and leaves a welt, we are all outraged, but the kid gets another chance and in almost no time it is forgotten. By pure chance he hit Molina in the eye. Now all of a sudden it is the worst act ever perpetrated on anyone in any sport ever. Maybe you should discuss that with the sons of the father who got beat to death at the hockey rink. I know that is a far out example, but doesn't everyone deserve a second chance? Especially hyped up teenagers who are trying to impress their coach? He didn't kill Molina. He did receive both civil and criminal punishment. We all should let it go. If he does it again, okay, then he is truly a sick bastard, but do you really think he will? Do you really think the lesson hasn't sunk in?

Is some of our hatred for the guy because he wears flubbie blue and our sweet lovable White Sox would never draft such a violent thug? Maybe we have forgetten the signing of Albert "Get out of my way you little treat or treating bastards" Belle...

Give the kid a chance to get his life back in order. Anyone here ever done something stupid and careless that injured another person - physically, mentally or emotionally? No? Wow - we truly are a society of elite special fans...

Vsahajpal
02-06-2002, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I blame Molina because what he did was not only illegal, it was outside the concept of good sportsmenship. While you are correct, that his actions are only minimally responsible while Christensen is majorly responsible, what Molina did was still wrong.

Maybe some of my attitude about this is that I have just learned that Molina bares ANY responsibility for this situation. I thought he was standing in his own on-deck circle and timing pitches. Meanwhile Christensen has been crucified as evil incarnate for this single horific act, which when viewed in a larger picture is NOT as bad as other acts that atheletes have perpetrated on a field of play, IMO. There have been tons of players (ie Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemans) who regularly through at opposing players for no other reason than they are mad. These guys have done their fair share of damage. Yes, Christensen went outside the lines of the rules of play, the concept of good sportsmenship AND the idea of playing fair. Still, it was one time. If the ball hits Molina in the arm and leaves a welt, we are all outraged, but the kid gets another chance and in almost no time it is forgotten. By pure chance he hit Molina in the eye. Now all of a sudden it is the worst act ever perpetrated on anyone in any sport ever. Maybe you should discuss that with the sons of the father who got beat to death at the hockey rink. I know that is a far out example, but doesn't everyone deserve a second chance? Especially hyped up teenagers who are trying to impress their coach? He didn't kill Molina. He did receive both civil and criminal punishment. We all should let it go. If he does it again, okay, then he is truly a sick bastard, but do you really think he will? Do you really think the lesson hasn't sunk in?

Is some of our hatred for the guy because he wears flubbie blue and our sweet lovable White Sox would never draft such a violent thug? Maybe we have forgetten the signing of Albert "Get out of my way you little treat or treating bastards" Belle...

Give the kid a chance to get his life back in order. Anyone here ever done something stupid and careless that injured another person - physically, mentally or emotionally? No? Wow - we truly are a society of elite special fans...

well said, voodoo!

RichH55
02-06-2002, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I don't condone what Ben did at all, but it takes two to tango. Molina walked to the other side of the plate! He was close to the on-deck circle...the problem was, he was closer to Wichita State's ondeck circle. What the hell is he doing there? He's almost daring Ben to do something, for crying out loud. I believe Ben, I honestly don't think he meant to fracture the kid's eye socket. It was clearly a stupid thing to do, there's no question, but Ben is not the only person at fault.

As far as the Cubs not receiving any flack, that's just not true at all. They drafted Ben the summer of '99, and after the draft Mickey Morandini (who played 2b for the Cubs at the time) chastised management. And then there was this article, kind of twisted the facts to get his point across, but...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/19990723pease.html

This is what I'm saying.....Hit a guy in the eye with a 91 MPH fastball when he cant reasonable be expected to have any defenses up....oh about 3 million % worse in the grand scheme of things than being too close to the wrong ondeck circle

Look at what you are saying man, you are blaming the victim here....even if I except your hypothesis that Molina is daring Beanball Ben to do something, can you think of anything that might be a solution to that before HITTING HIM IN THE EYE WITH A FASTBALL!

Ben is the guy taking the lionshare of the blame here for a simple reason: He deserves it! What is the result of Molina's actions? Riling up the opposition? Poor Sportsmanship? Maybe a Small Advantage if he was timing Ben's pitches? Well Dear Lord...Lets Hang the Guy.......This to me is like someone calling you a name(pick one that infrirates you)...and the result is you take your gun and shoot him....is he a Saint? No. Should you have shot him? What are you freaking nuts? Of course not....."two to tango"???? He hit him in the eye with a fastball, how is to akin to the old two to tango line? Usually I hear that line when two parties start on an equal plane like a fight and both essentially know what they are doing.....Walking around the Catcher and being too close to the wrong ondeck circle is on another planet in terms of wrongdoing than Hitting a guy in the Eye with a Fastball when he isnt in the Batters Box and Im shocked that you would link the two

RichH55
02-06-2002, 06:34 AM
Heres that Baseball Prospectus article for those too lazy to click on the link:Is Society Dead?

by Dave Pease


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not one that worries about a lot of the fluff that goes on around baseball in specific, or sports in general. Organizations like ESPN are so desperate for broadcast material that they have no choice but to spend a lot of time and effort blowing things out of proportion. Minor fluctuations in performance become meaningful trends that require explanation. Society is reflected in sport, or so we're told, usually by someone who used to have a prostate.

But I am worried about the recent baseball draft.

Specifically, I'm worried about Ben Christensen being drafted and signed by the Chicago Cubs. Christensen is an unindicted felon who spent his college career at Wichita State. During a Wichita State/Evansville game last April 23, Christensen thought Evansville leadoff batter Anthony Molina was timing his pitches in the on-desk circle during pre-game warmups. (If you haven't played baseball, know that this is something pretty much everyone does, discreetly, so as not to tick off the pitcher and get a fastball in the ribs.) Christensen responded by firing a fastball at Molina's head while Molina was still in the on-deck circle, also during warmups.

This projectile, launched at about 90 miles per hour, struck Molina in his left eye, effectively ruining his potential baseball career and consigning him to an immediate future filled with delicate and risky surgeries, and a probable lifetime of blurred vision.

But hey, this is baseball, and these things happen. Ask Kirby Puckett. Puckett's career was probably cut short by a Dennis Martinez pitch. Unfortunate, but an accident nonetheless.

But was this an accident?

Well, according to published reports, Molina was warming up about 14 feet to the side of home plate. That means that if it was an accident, Christensen missed his target by approximately 20 degrees. Christensen's pitching coach, Brent Kemnitz, told reporters after the incident that he teaches his pitchers to dust hitters who time pitches.

This was a felony. Assault & battery with a deadly weapon. You've got intent to do harm, you've got deliberate action and you've got damn near deadly force. Christensen's behind should have been hauled off and booked, and charges should have been brought against him. Kemnitz should have been right there with him, and an investigation into how much Wichita State head coach Gene Stephenson had to do with Christensen's assault should have commenced--by Wichita State itself, if the authorities couldn't be persuaded.

Instead, you've got the Chicago Cubs drafting and signing Christensen, and a totally insincere apology by this piece of human detritus. Fortunately, based on the Cubs' history of talent acquisition and development, it's probably safe to assume that Christensen will be hideous. He'll get a whole bunch of chances to fail, and I'll be hoping he capitalizes on all of them. I also hope he approaches Eric Chavez's ex-advisor for financial guidance.

On the off chance that Christensen is the next Greg Maddux, I'd really like to see him make millions a year and have to give it all to Molina, who has a civil suit pending. Perhaps the justice system can impose a bit of sanity to this completely out of control situation.

During his speech after signing with the Cubs last weekend, Christensen said "I hope he gets better quick, so he can get on with his life and I can get on with mine." Al Campanis was a racist buffoon, and the right actions were taken to remove him from MLB. But this goes way beyond what Campanis said. Christensen should be barred from setting foot on an MLB field. Ever. Compared to this guy, Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson are saints.

I like to stay clean, fight fair and all those good things...until my opponent deviates from this sort of behavior. If by some evil twist of fate, Christensen makes the majors, I hope the first pitch he sees is a mid-90s fastball at his Adam's apple. And I don't give a rat's ass whether he gets out of the way or not.

Which I guess makes me the same sort of human pusbag as Christensen.

RichH55
02-06-2002, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I blame Molina because what he did was not only illegal, it was outside the concept of good sportsmenship. While you are correct, that his actions are only minimally responsible while Christensen is majorly responsible, what Molina did was still wrong.

Maybe some of my attitude about this is that I have just learned that Molina bares ANY responsibility for this situation. I thought he was standing in his own on-deck circle and timing pitches. Meanwhile Christensen has been crucified as evil incarnate for this single horific act, which when viewed in a larger picture is NOT as bad as other acts that atheletes have perpetrated on a field of play, IMO. There have been tons of players (ie Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemans) who regularly through at opposing players for no other reason than they are mad. These guys have done their fair share of damage. Yes, Christensen went outside the lines of the rules of play, the concept of good sportsmenship AND the idea of playing fair. Still, it was one time. If the ball hits Molina in the arm and leaves a welt, we are all outraged, but the kid gets another chance and in almost no time it is forgotten. By pure chance he hit Molina in the eye. Now all of a sudden it is the worst act ever perpetrated on anyone in any sport ever. Maybe you should discuss that with the sons of the father who got beat to death at the hockey rink. I know that is a far out example, but doesn't everyone deserve a second chance? Especially hyped up teenagers who are trying to impress their coach? He didn't kill Molina. He did receive both civil and criminal punishment. We all should let it go. If he does it again, okay, then he is truly a sick bastard, but do you really think he will? Do you really think the lesson hasn't sunk in?

Is some of our hatred for the guy because he wears flubbie blue and our sweet lovable White Sox would never draft such a violent thug? Maybe we have forgetten the signing of Albert "Get out of my way you little treat or treating bastards" Belle...

Give the kid a chance to get his life back in order. Anyone here ever done something stupid and careless that injured another person - physically, mentally or emotionally? No? Wow - we truly are a society of elite special fans...

If you are up to bat against a pitcher, any pitcher, you have a chance of getting hit, maybe even on purpose. You also have stepped into that situation fully knowing that AND with a chance to avoid that pitch being thrown at you.....quite a bit different than being near the wrong On Deck circle...what do you want from Molina here? Awareness that he hit be hit in the Eye at any time? An expectation of the unexpected, to take for granted an event that I cant recall ever happening would make perfect sense to happen to him?

"Yes, Christensen went outside the lines of the rules of play, the concept of good sportsmenship AND the idea of playing fair." Do you think this minimizes what happen just a bit? Would it be fair to think about this as not just something that disagrees with the norms of baseball but the norms of right and wrong in our society and is something that transcends the field of play into something that screams Felon. And as a pitcher you have alot of control where you pitch goes and to hit someone in the eye you need to be aiming at their head for the most part, at least for a first round draft choice, so lets not mark that one off to chance....If you do something like Ben did you are responsible for the ultimate effects of your actions, and granted it wouldnt have been such a big deal if it hit in the Molina the arm..BUT IT HIT HIM IN THE EYE...I cant stress that enough.


"Now all of a sudden it is the worst act ever perpetrated on anyone in any sport ever" ...now you are misquoting here...I said that happened on the field of play essentially during play...Fans or Players of the Field dont fall into that catergory....I can thinkof Orlando Cepeda with a bat in a baseball brawl, and I remember some things from hockey, but nothing like Beanball Ben.....Everyone jumped all over Marty McSorely for his attack on Brashear and rightfully so, but to achieve Beanball status he would have had to wait fro Brashear to kind of just be there not in play but around the ice and take a Slap Shot and aim it at his head and hit him in the eye shattering his eye socket....Now Im not saying Im right on Beanball Ben having commited the worst thing on the field of play ever, but I really cant think of what tops it off the top of my head.

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 12:12 PM
You put up an article like that which is filled with mis-information (Puckett retired due to cataracts, Molina was NOT in the on-deck circle) and expect everyone to say "Wow, Christesen is one evil dude". I disagree, but so do you and so, this will be my last post on the matter.

Since none of us can know how Molina was standing when the ball was thrown and how that posture changed while the ball was in flight, you cannot assume that this ball was intentionally thrown at his head. Was Molina in a crouch when it hit him? Did he suddenly flinch when the ball approached him due to a peripheral vision flash? Did he go into a stance as the ball was released thus turning a ball thrown at his chest into one thrown at his head? No one will ever know because that information probably wasn't registered by anyone except Molina and maybe Christensen. I doubt Molina can remember and it may just be a blur to Christense. On the other hand maybe he did intentionally throw at his head, but know one will ever know...

Yes, Christensen messed up. It was bad. It was horrific. It was terrible. He should take the burden of blame for this act and he has. He has paid both civil and criminal punishments. He is also basically a kid. If you don't believe he intended to seriously hurt Molina (and you say you don't) - then you must give him the benefit of the doubt. I agree that if you cause someone to be injured either intentionally or not, you should pay the price, but whether that damage was intentional or not does mitigate the punishment (hence the difference between Manslaughter and Murder).

One last point... Is it better for Molina that Christensen is going to be well paid? Many would argue yes as it allows Molina to collect some of the money he otherwise might have made as a pro ballplayer. If Christensen is working at 7-11 it does Molina no good at all to sue him...

Randar68
02-06-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I don't condone what Ben did at all, but it takes two to tango.

Come on VS, is the victim of a drive by shooting or a rape also at "fault"

Words are words, and skimping the rules are just that, but when someone takes physical and aggressive action, it goes straight to the courts. How he avoided long term repercussions is beyond me.



For a little perspective:

When I played ball in HS, during a summer league, one of another team's players was bending down to tie his shoes in the on deck circle. The guy in the box swung, a la Walt Hriniak school of swings, and let a Ricky Guitierez(sp?) go!

The bat hit the kid in the face, and basically blew up one side of his face. In a complete accident, the kid who threw the bat and his family were not held unaccountable. IN A COMPLETE ACCIDENT....


And here people are making excuses for what a kid did to someone else ON PURPOSE!!!!





Another analogy. You're driving down the road, and someone cuts you off. You're pissed off because they did something illegal. You pull up next to them and swerve you car at them just trying to scare them. You lose control of your car and force him into oncoming traffic where he is critically injured....

WHO'S FAULT IS IT? Doing something illegal or against the rules in a harmless manner does not warrant violence or physical retaliation in any conceivable way...

How can you possibly defend this in any way???

Randar68
02-06-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He is also basically a kid.

If an eighteen year old shoots somebody else, they will get the same punishment as if a 35 year old did it.

Age is irrelevant, intelligence, common sense, and a felling of what is right, or a lack of all of the above, is what does matter.

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


If an eighteen year old shoots somebody else, they will get the same punishment as if a 35 year old did it.

Age is irrelevant, intelligence, common sense, and a felling of what is right, or a lack of all of the above, is what does matter.

Okay, so what is the punishment for a first time offender who hits someone in the eye with a thrown object and cause that person to lose some of their visions?

Change the baseball to a rock and make it an alley instead of a ballpark. What is the proper punishment? I say it should be probabtion, but maybe I am a softy...

Randar68
02-06-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

What is the proper punishment? I say it should be probabtion, but maybe I am a softy...

Well, if the offender is 14, you are about right. If the offender is of legal age, I think you may be underestimating. I'm not talking life terms here, but 30 days, or something of the like, is warranted, IMO....

czalgosz
02-06-2002, 12:37 PM
Not to exascerbate this situation, but here are a couple points -

1) Molina was standing about 70 feet away from Christensen. Greg Maddux could probably hit someone in the head from 70 feet if he tried to, as long as the guy didn't move. I haven't seen a film clip of this or anything, but I'm assuming that Molina was ducking and/or spinning away from the ball as it came at him (if it hit him in the eye, you bet he saw it). Also, I'm betting that Ben Christensen doesn't have Greg Maddux-type control. If Christensen was trying to hit him in the head, he had extraordinary luck to do so. I tend to believe his first explanation, which is that he was throwing in his general direction to scare him.

2) I've never played baseball beyond the little league level, but I have run cross-country and track. Now, if you know anything about cross-country, it's probably one of the most sedate sports out there in terms of competition. Everyone gets along pretty well. But one time I was getting cut off by a kid who was swerving back and forth in front of me, not allowing me to pass. I was getting extraordinarily frustrated, trying to get by him. I was much faster, and he would not allow me the right of way. Finally, I pushed him from behind. He fell over, and I ran past him and finished the race. I'm not proud of that, and it was definitely the wrong thing to do. He was okay, but when you're running on an uneven surface as fast as you can, it's always dangerous to fall. What if he had broken his leg? I would hate to think that my life should be over because of a mistake I made in the heat of competition when I was 16.

All I'm saying is that to paint the kid as some sort of inhuman monster is a little extreme. It's sure easy for us to sit at home or in our offices and talk about how it was wrong (and it certainly was wrong) when we've never had to compete at that level, where our careers are at stake with every pitch. Give the kid a break.

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, if the offender is 14, you are about right. If the offender is of legal age, I think you may be underestimating. I'm not talking life terms here, but 30 days, or something of the like, is warranted, IMO....

I think the situation would be better served by a couple of years of probation with the threat of finishing the time in jail if the act happens again. What if the person throwing the rock had been told by his father to do it whenever certain circumstances are evident? The kid now sees those circumstances and does what he has been taught to do. Does that change the punishment?

Now factor in the distance, the fact that Molina was wearing a batting helmet (I assume - after all he WAS warming up to bat) and the fact that he was by everyone's account moving around. This was a fluke accident caused by a kid who made a terrible decision that an adult with authority in his life had told him to make under these circumstances. Wasn't Christensen still in high-school? If so, of age or not, he isn't exactly worldly and filled with the wisdom of age. (no offense, high-schoolers - but you will be shocked to see how much you learn in the next few years - everyone is.)

When I was 15 one of the soccer players kicked another guy in the testicles, intentionally. That is certainly as bad as the beanball accident and just as potentially dangerous (possibly more so). It was handled by the coaches (and possibly the parents). Should that kid have gone to jail?

Czalgosz - well said...

CLR01
02-06-2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Not to exascerbate this situation, but here are a couple points -

1) Molina was standing about 70 feet away from Christensen. Greg Maddux could probably hit someone in the head from 70 feet if he tried to, as long as the guy didn't move. I haven't seen a film clip of this or anything, but I'm assuming that Molina was ducking and/or spinning away from the ball as it came at him (if it hit him in the eye, you bet he saw it). Also, I'm betting that Ben Christensen doesn't have Greg Maddux-type control. If Christensen was trying to hit him in the head, he had extraordinary luck to do so. I tend to believe his first explanation, which is that he was throwing in his general direction to scare him.



His explanation does not change the situation. Even if he is telling the truth and he was just throwing in Molinas general drection he is still responsible for whatever damage that ball does. A ball thrown at someone from a distance of about 70-80 feet and a speed of 91 MPH when they are not expecting it gives them what about a second to react. I doubt Molina was able to move around to much. Also i have read people saying if the ball would have been 10 inches lower and hit him in the arm or shoulder we would not be here arguing aout this. Well if it would have been 1 inch to the side, Molina might not be alive today, or what if it would have hit him in the chest causing his heart to stop. Luckily it didnt do either of those things, but Christensen is still responsible for what it did do. Voodoo, would your stance on the punishment change if the ball would have totally missed Molina and traveled a row or two deep and injured a fan?

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by CLR01



His explanation does not change the situation. Even if he is telling the truth and he was just throwing in Molinas general drection he is still responsible for whatever damage that ball does. A ball thrown at someone from a distance of about 70-80 feet and a speed of 91 MPH when they are not expecting it gives them what about a second to react. I doubt Molina was able to move around to much. Also i have read people saying if the ball would have been 10 inches lower and hit him in the arm or shoulder we would not be here arguing aout this. Well if it would have been 1 inch to the side, Molina might not be alive today, or what if it would have hit him in the chest causing his heart to stop. Luckily it didnt do either of those things, but Christensen is still responsible for what it did do. Voodoo, would your stance on the punishment change if the ball would have totally missed Molina and traveled a row or two deep and injured a fan?

No. I don't care what the damage was short of killing someone. My attitude is the same. He did what he was coached to do and unfortunately that act was not only a bad decision, but someone got hurt by it. No one got killed. This has been blown way out of proportion. Let the kid alone and let him get on with his life. He shouldn't be punished forever for this one bad act. He is going to carry the stigma of being "Beanball Ben" for the rest of his playing days at least if not for the rest of his life. No matter where he goes people will be willing to treat him like the lowest of the low. Isn't that punishment enough? Can't we rise above it and say, "we forgive you"? Is he really as bad as OJ?

I still think our outrage is fueled by our hatred of flubbie blue...

Soxboyrob
02-06-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

But one time I was getting cut off by a kid who was swerving back and forth in front of me, not allowing me to pass. I was getting extraordinarily frustrated, trying to get by him. I was much faster, and he would not allow me the right of way. Finally, I pushed him from behind. He fell over, and I ran past him and finished the race. I'm not proud of that, and it was definitely the wrong thing to do.

That was beautiful. Let go of the guilt, Czal. That little sucker had it coming. I have a newfound respect for you.

Iwritecode
02-06-2002, 02:47 PM
I'm kinda middle ground on whether he was right or wrong and what his punishment should be. I just wanted to offer this.

When I was a pitcher, I would never go all out during warm ups. Maybe one or two pitches but mostly just throwing at 3/4 speed. I would always listen to the comments of the opposing team of how I didn't throw that hard, they could hit me easy, bla bla bla...
If the hitter tried to get my timing then, he would be screwed up by the first pitch of the game. (Although if they were anything like me, they didn't swing at the first pitch anyways.) The only thing is, as the game goes on, the hitters are going to get the timing down anyways. So I don't understand why he threw at him in the first place. Or why the coach told him to do it. If the guy is standing in the on deck circle doing the same thing is he going to throw at him over there too? If your gonna throw at them, at least wait until they are in the batter's box...

Randar68
02-06-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

2) I've never played baseball beyond the little league level, but I have run cross-country and track.

You are right on this level, though. I played Collegiate Water Polo and play Hockey now, and in either sport, it is extremely easy to severely injure somebody.

You are responsible for your own actions. Shooting at someone to scare them, and accidentally hitting them is still Manslaughter, intent has no bearing...

If you have no common sense, it's reason enough to be locked up, IMO. It's idiots like him which cause our societal issues....

Randar68
02-06-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
If your gonna throw at them, at least wait until they are in the batter's box...

EXACTLY! Well said!

voodoochile
02-06-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


You are right on this level, though. I played Collegiate Water Polo and play Hockey now, and in either sport, it is extremely easy to severely injure somebody.

You are responsible for your own actions. Shooting at someone to scare them, and accidentally hitting them is still Manslaughter, intent has no bearing...

If you have no common sense, it's reason enough to be locked up, IMO. It's idiots like him which cause our societal issues....

While I agree that idiots are one of the main problems with society today - I disagree with your statement about intent.

It may have no bearing on the outcome - in your example the victim is still dead, whether the shooter intended to hit them or not, but it has a huge bearing on the punishment enacted.

Intent to kill will get you life in prison and sometimes a lethal injection. Lack of intent to kill can get you off with 3 years in some cases. Yet, the victim is still dead.

Since most of us here agree that Chistensen did not intend to injure Molina AND the crime is far less heinous than murder or even manslaughter, the punishment should fit the crime. Certainly he does not deserve to have bile and hatred thrown his way for the rest of his life.

The article earlier posted said it well (I paraphrase here):

"Rooting for Christensen to get hurt makes us no better then he was at the moment he delivered his infamous throw."

The writer (as I read it) was trying to be clever and sarcastic, but they hit the nail right on the head.

I agree with IWC also that Christensen should have waited until Molina was in the batters box. He didn't. That is a mistake that he will live with until the day he dies.

Randar68
02-06-2002, 05:49 PM
"Rooting for Christensen to get hurt makes us no better then he was at the moment he delivered his infamous throw."

While this is true, and I won't root for him to be injured, I will root for him to fail in life, which is more than just root to fail because he's on the Cubs.

HE WAS NOT 12 YEARS OLD WHEN HE DID THIS! He was an adult. Again, just my opinion...

czalgosz
02-06-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


While this is true, and I won't root for him to be injured, I will root for him to fail in life, which is more than just root to fail because he's on the Cubs.

HE WAS NOT 12 YEARS OLD WHEN HE DID THIS! He was an adult. Again, just my opinion...

That's pretty harsh, Randar. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, and I doubt that anyone here will change your mind on this issue, but there's a big difference between what happened here and being a criminal, which is what you're calling him.

I mean, this is kind of off-topic, but bad things happen. They happen to people who don't deserve it. Sometimes the punishment (getting hit in the face with a fastball) doesn't match the crime (timing pitches). But unless you can show me that Christensen intended to hurt him (not throw at him, HURT him), it's really not fair to say that his life deserves to be ruined. Mistakes happen. And that really sucks for Molina, but that's the way things are. Sometimes, life isn't about black and white. Sometimes, a basically good person can do bad things without meaning to. I don't think there's a hero and a villain to this story. It's just a tragic mess, is all it is.

Randar68
02-07-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


That's pretty harsh, Randar. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, and I doubt that anyone here will change your mind on this issue, but there's a big difference between what happened here and being a criminal, which is what you're calling him.

I mean, this is kind of off-topic, but bad things happen. They happen to people who don't deserve it. Sometimes the punishment (getting hit in the face with a fastball) doesn't match the crime (timing pitches). But unless you can show me that Christensen intended to hurt him (not throw at him, HURT him), it's really not fair to say that his life deserves to be ruined. Mistakes happen. And that really sucks for Molina, but that's the way things are. Sometimes, life isn't about black and white. Sometimes, a basically good person can do bad things without meaning to. I don't think there's a hero and a villain to this story. It's just a tragic mess, is all it is.

I've spent a lot of time in hospitals in my life and one thing I can say for sure:

Accidents happen to people who don't deserve it, but accidents happen because someone was an idiot, and it usually wasn't the person who was injured....

Kilroy
02-07-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
...Molina was NOT in the on-deck circle...

I can't really see how this makes one damn bit of difference. But someone please post this "rule" that its been said that Molina broke by walking behind the plate and warming up on the other side of the field. With all the conversation on this thing in the last 2 years, I have never heard one mention of any such rule.

voodoochile
02-07-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


I can't really see how this makes one damn bit of difference. But someone please post this "rule" that its been said that Molina broke by walking behind the plate and warming up on the other side of the field. With all the conversation on this thing in the last 2 years, I have never heard one mention of any such rule.

I admit my understanding of the rule comes from watching a playoff game a while back where a team was walking the 3 hitter to get to the 4 hitter. The 4 hitter was standing about 3 feet behind the batters box and the color announcer quipped, "He's got a wait problem - can't wait to hit." Then the PBP guy pointed out that it was illegal to be that close to Home plate and that you were supposed to stay pretty close to the On-deck circle while warming up.

I cannot remember names or teams, but I distinctly remember the event. I may well be wrong, or the PBP guy may have been an idiot (certainly wouldn't be the first time). Anyone know the rules for sure? I would love to hear the truth.

Who's got a link to the official rules of Baseball?

Cheryl
02-07-2002, 06:29 PM
http://www2.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball_basics/mlb_basics_on_the_field.jsp

voodoochile
02-07-2002, 06:47 PM
I don't even see the on-deck circle mentioned - or as they refer to it in the diagram, "next batters box". So maybe there is no rule.

Paulwny
02-08-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't even see the on-deck circle mentioned - or as they refer to it in the diagram, "next batters box". So maybe there is no rule.

You may be correct. The only rule I located was adopted in 1960 and it requires a batter to be in the "on deck" circle. No mention of having to stay in the circle.
I remember a pitcher complaining to the home plate ump about Don Mattingly being too far away from the "on deck" circle. The ump told him to move, he got closer to the circle but was never in it and play resumed.
Now that I think about it, it would have been interesting if he refused.

czalgosz
02-08-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny



Now that I think about it, it would have been interesting if he refused.

Mattingly was a classy ballplayer - he wouldn't have gotten into a fight with an umpire. If he had, it would have been similar to the Carl Everett "erasing the back of the batter's box" incident.

Now, if they can only start enforcing the rule that the batter has to try to get out of the way of pitches - I'm tired of seeing batters with huge armguards turning in to inside pitches to they can take their base.

Paulwny
02-08-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

Now, if they can only start enforcing the rule that the batter has to try to get out of the way of pitches - I'm tired of seeing batters with huge armguards turning in to inside pitches to they can take their base.

You're right, some batters are starting to look like Roman Gadiators.
It's funny though, I didn't mind seeing Fisk turn his left shoulder to get hit by a pitch.

czalgosz
02-08-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


You're right, some batters are starting to look like Roman Gadiators.
It's funny though, I didn't mind seeing Fisk turn his left shoulder to get hit by a pitch.

It's one thing, IMO, if you're willing to get hit on your actual body. That hurts. I think they ought to waive the "take your base" rule for batters wearing body armor. If you want to wear it, fine, but if it hits your armor, it's just a ball.

Paulwny
02-08-2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


It's one thing, IMO, if you're willing to get hit on your actual body. That hurts. I think they ought to waive the "take your base" rule for batters wearing body armor. If you want to wear it, fine, but if it hits your armor, it's just a ball.

Not a bad idea but, you'd hear a lot of crying from some batters.

czalgosz
02-08-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Not a bad idea but, you'd hear a lot of crying from some batters.

The last rules change to make pitcher's lives easier was in the 1800s, when they allowed pitchers to snap their wrists when throwing the pitch. Since then -

They slowly reduced the number of balls to a walk from 8 to 4.

They moved the mound from 50 feet to 60 feet 6 inches away from the plate.

They created the "live" ball.

They made spitballs and shineballs illegal.

They lowered the height of the mound.

They introduced the designated hitter.

They juiced the ball again.

Every rules change since the 1880s has been to increase offense. I think the batters can take one minor adjustment.

RichH55
02-08-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


The last rules change to make pitcher's lives easier was in the 1800s, when they allowed pitchers to snap their wrists when throwing the pitch. Since then -

They slowly reduced the number of balls to a walk from 8 to 4.

They moved the mound from 50 feet to 60 feet 6 inches away from the plate.

They created the "live" ball.

They made spitballs and shineballs illegal.

They lowered the height of the mound.

They introduced the designated hitter.

They juiced the ball again.

Every rules change since the 1880s has been to increase offense. I think the batters can take one minor adjustment.


Hey they finally got around to trying to call the high strike at least....one small step...