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View Full Version : Time for McCarthy to take Garlands spot?


ChiSox62-
06-08-2006, 09:07 PM
How much longer can they go with Garland in the rotation?

SOXBOY
06-08-2006, 09:11 PM
Judy is the same pitcher he was two years ago.Giving up the one big inning.I'm sick and tried of Judy.

CLR01
06-08-2006, 09:16 PM
Judy is the same pitcher he was two years ago.Giving up the one big inning.I'm sick and tried of Judy.


Buh-Bye.

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 09:17 PM
Where's the "this poll sucks" option? That's all we need right now is one less arm in the 'pen.

skobabe8
06-08-2006, 09:17 PM
Judy is the same pitcher he was two years ago.Giving up the one big inning.I'm sick and tried of Judy.

Hard to agree with you if you watched that 'big' inning. The defense stunk.

nsolo
06-08-2006, 09:17 PM
At times I wonder if Garland suffers from ADD. As if he loses concentration. Just a personal opinion.

To answer your question, yes, lets move Brandon into the starting rotation. If that move were made, what would become of Garland? As trade bait, his value decreases by moving him out of a starting pitcher position. If moved into the bullpen, where we NEED help, it may help to jump start his concentration level.

NSolo

My first Sox game at age 11? Joe Horlen's no-hitter.

LuvSox
06-08-2006, 09:18 PM
Not his fault.

alohafri
06-08-2006, 09:19 PM
Where's the "this poll sucks" option? That's all we need right now is one less arm in the 'pen.

We wouldn't have one fewer arm in the 'pen. Judy and BMac switch spots.

CHISOXFAN13
06-08-2006, 09:19 PM
I sometimes wonder if people who start these polls understand the game. You cannot let base runners advance free bases like Mackowiak did. It screwed the whole inning up for Garland.

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 09:20 PM
We wouldn't have one fewer arm in the 'pen. Judy and Fingernails on a blackboard switch spots.That is a horrible idea.

eurotrash35
06-08-2006, 09:23 PM
horrible, horrible idea

oeo
06-08-2006, 09:25 PM
We wouldn't have one fewer arm in the 'pen. Judy and Fingernails on a blackboard switch spots.
Didn't somebody JUST get banned for using that name?

If Jon could get some defense behind him, he would have been out of that inning. I don't know why everyone just **** their pants in the 6th, but they did. He pitched great up until then, and you can't credit all the runs to Jon because if Brian was playing center, none of this would have ever happened.

JB98
06-08-2006, 09:25 PM
This poll sucks. In fact, it's the worst poll I've ever seen at WSI.

Garland stays in the rotation, McCarthy in the right-handed middle relief role. Period. End of discussion. Screw you guys, I'm going home.

Soxfest
06-08-2006, 09:27 PM
I am so sick of Garland I want him traded in a package deal in off season he is a 5th starter nothing more , 1yr WONDER:angry:

CLR01
06-08-2006, 09:28 PM
We wouldn't have one fewer arm in the 'pen. Judy and Fingernails on a blackboard switch spots.


:rolleyes:

skobabe8
06-08-2006, 09:28 PM
This poll sucks. In fact, it's the worst poll I've ever seen at WSI.

Garland stays in the rotation, McCarthy in the right-handed middle relief role. Period. End of discussion. Screw you guys, I'm going home.

hahaha...I love when people make a great exit.

Vernam
06-08-2006, 09:28 PM
Buh-Bye.:bandance: Your services may be needed in the Game Thread, too. :wink:

The guy may be an under-achiever, but he's not leaving the rotation anytime soon. Nor should he. And tonight's implosion is not on him.

Vernam

gobears1987
06-08-2006, 09:29 PM
The idea in the poll is an overreaction, but I still say that Garland is a 1 year wonder and should be better than a 5th starter. Remember, Garland was supposed to be a front of the rotation starter. He is a mental case. He has some of the best stuff, but he can't avoid the bad inning.

CLR01
06-08-2006, 09:33 PM
:bandance: Your services may be needed in the Game Thread, too. :wink:

The guy may be an under-achiever, but he's not leaving the rotation anytime soon. Nor should he. And tonight's implosion is not on him.

Vernam


I've been there already. :wink:


The post game thread should be fun.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 09:35 PM
NO.

Garland did not have a "big inning." The defense had a "big inning." Had BA been out there instead of Macko we may not be having this discussion. The defense always seems to let Jon down, and I hate to see him tagged with the loss when he pitched pretty darn well. He pitched inside a lot and had, what, 6 Ks?

And also, the one home run that was hit off of him was off an inside pitch. The hitter just adjusted well and hit it out.

wassagstdu
06-08-2006, 09:45 PM
Garland pitched very well tonight. Just got run over by a Mack truck.

.

nsolo
06-08-2006, 09:46 PM
I sometimes wonder if people who start these polls understand the game. You cannot let base runners advance free bases like Mackowiak did. It screwed the whole inning up for Garland.

I agree that the defense screwed up, but the "one bad inning" trait that is part of Garland's reputation isn't a myth. Most good pitchers who posses equal talent have a better competitive mindset that allows them to bear down and get the needed outs. Black Jack is my all-time favorite Sox pitcher, and I wonder how he would've reponded in the same situation. I understand that's not comparing apples to apples, but I still wonder.

In certain games, pitchers are more than willing to take the "win" on days their stuff escapes tham and the defense bails them out with five star plays. With that in mind, they also have to accept that bad plays, while not acceptable, still happen and in those situations the teams relies on them to get the outs.

A more aggresive Garland would be welcome here. Protect the inside of the plate.

NSolo

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 09:47 PM
I've been there already. :wink:


The post game thread should be fun.I hope nobody is blaming Jon on this loss, or using the "J word" to describe him.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 09:48 PM
I hope nobody is blaming Jon on this loss, or using the "J word" to describe him.

Oh, I'm sure they'll blame him. Even when he doesn't deserve it, he'll get blamed. I swear, I feel like his only fan sometimes.

A. Cavatica
06-08-2006, 09:50 PM
This poll sucks. In fact, it's the worst poll I've ever seen at WSI.

Really? The worst poll? Without even trying I can think of several others...

I voted yes, because FOAB would give us better results as a starter, and better results than Jon is giving us as a starter.

And I'm going off Jon's season so far, not just tonight's game. He came in to the game with a 6+ ERA, he left the game with a 6+ ERA...

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2006, 09:53 PM
Really? The worst poll? Without even trying I can think of several others...

I voted yes, because FOAB would give us better results as a starter, and better results than Jon is giving us as a starter.

And I'm going off Jon's season so far, not just tonight's game. He came in to the game with a 6+ ERA, he left the game with a 6+ ERA...It's hard to keep that ERA down when your defense gets caught sleeping or makes bad descions. Jon should have been out of that inning giving up 1 run, and that's a generous 1 run.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 09:54 PM
It's hard to keep that ERA down when your defense gets caught sleeping or makes bad descions. Jon should have been out of that inning giving up 1 run, and that's a generous 1 run.

His ERA is also high because of his first two starts. And also, I agree, it's hard to keep it down when your defense isn't backing you up at all.

It's so frustrating when people blame Jon for losses like today's when they should really blame the defense.

whitesoxfan
06-08-2006, 10:02 PM
Cmon guys, Garland has been pitching better lately. He's been going in on hitters a whole lot more and his location has improved greatly since the start of the season. The big inning today IMO was not Garland's fault at all. Two cheap hits amounted to 2 of the runs scoring and then he hung a pitch when we should have already been out of the inning. As Hawk said, the Tiggers had 4 gift runs in that inning.

Why would we put McCarthy in the rotation? We gave Garland a deal in the offseason...it would look pretty stupid to have a starter that you re-sign for several million dollars in the offseason to be your long relief man. Garland, to me anyway, is not a concern right now. Like I said, his biggest struggle this year was his location and he has overcome that. I will gurantee you that it will only be a matter of time when he is only allowing 2-3 runs a game every game out.

Blob
06-08-2006, 10:03 PM
These are the kinds of threads I have to train myself not to read!! :o:

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 10:05 PM
These are the kinds of threads I have to train myself not to read!! :o:

I probably should do that, I freak out when I read them.

Blob
06-08-2006, 10:07 PM
I probably should do that, I freak out when I read them.

It's like slowing down to watch an accident!!!

Sometimes you just have to...:D:

santo=dorf
06-08-2006, 10:09 PM
It's hard to keep that ERA down when your defense gets caught sleeping or makes bad descions. Jon should have been out of that inning giving up 1 run, and that's a generous 1 run.
Yeah because Garland has zero responsibility for giving all those towering flyballs and bloop hits. It's all the defense's fault.

Garland leads the league in home runs given up with a pathetic 19 in 77 innings. For as much **** Freddy has gotten around here for being a flyball pitcher, he gave up 25 home runs in 225 innings last season.

Garland has given up 95 Groundball out to 100 flyball/lineouts.

Serious question to the Garland fans; if he looked more like Ezequiel Estacio would you all continue to blame the defense?

Didn't think so. :cool:

SweetnesSox
06-08-2006, 10:18 PM
How much longer can they go with Garland in the rotation?


all the way to the World Series.

champagne030
06-08-2006, 10:18 PM
Yeah because Garland has zero responsibility for giving all those towering flyballs and bloop hits. It's all the defense's fault.

Garland leads the league in home runs given up with a pathetic 19 in 77 innings. For as much **** Freddy has gotten around here for being a flyball pitcher, he gave up 25 home runs in 225 innings last season.

Garland has given up 95 Groundball out to 100 flyball/lineouts.

Serious question to the Garland fans; if he looked more like Ezequiel Estacio would you all continue to blame the defense?

Didn't think so. :cool:

I don't see anyone saying Jon is better than Freddy. JG didn't pitch well earlier this season, but if we had a LF in KC or a CF today, he would've knocked 10 ER off his total. He's not a K guy, he needs the defense to make the plays. That's what makes me upset about this game, BA's defense more than makes up for Mack's offense when JG is on the mound and the Gambler is the opposing pitcher.

SweetnesSox
06-08-2006, 10:20 PM
Really? The worst poll? Without even trying I can think of several others...

IMO, this is the worst poll that is SERIOUS.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 10:20 PM
Serious question to the Garland fans; if he looked more like Ezequiel Estacio would you all continue to blame the defense?

eww.

i don't just like jon cos he's hot!

SweetnesSox
06-08-2006, 10:21 PM
Serious question to the Garland fans; if he looked more like Ezequiel Estacio would you all continue to blame the defense?


even if he looked like Alf, I still have eyes and can see when a CF has no idea what he's doing. come on now, what a ludicrous thing to say. We'd say the same thing if Buehrle or Jose was on the mound.

santo=dorf
06-08-2006, 10:22 PM
I don't see anyone saying Jon is better than Freddy. JG didn't pitch well earlier this season, but if we had a LF in KC or a CF today, he would've knocked 10 ER off his total. He's not a K guy, he needs the defense to make the plays. That's what makes me upset about this game, BA's defense more than makes up for Mack's offense when JG is on the mound and the Gambler is the opposing pitcher.
I was just making a comparison to last year's whipping boy, Freddy Garcia. There has been discussing of who to trade after this seasont to get FOBB in the rotation.

Everybody called him a flyball pitcher who gave up too many homers.

This year Garland is giving up way,way more home runs and is giving up more flyballs than groundballs, and the same people are continuing to make excuses.

jongarlandlover
06-08-2006, 10:26 PM
even if he looked like Alf, I still have eyes and can see when a CF has no idea what he's doing. come on now, what a ludicrous thing to say. We'd say the same thing if Buehrle or Jose was on the mound.

Indefinitely. If the defense was letting down any other pitcher, I'd still complain about it.

And Buehrle hasn't been looking great in his past two starts, but I don't see people on here panicking...

Lip Man 1
06-08-2006, 10:28 PM
I understand about the defensive issues hurting Jon but remember there have been at least three times this season (counting tonight) when Jon has just imploded and given up a big inning after two outs.

That can't all be 'blamed' on defensive shortcomings can it?

Lip

SweetnesSox
06-08-2006, 10:29 PM
I understand about the defensive issues hurting Jon but remember there have been at least three times this season (counting tonight) when Jon has just imploded and given up a big inning after two outs.

That can't all be 'blamed' on defensive shortcomings can it?

Lip


of course not... but it doesn't mean bench Jon either.

unclegary
06-08-2006, 11:11 PM
Dammit Jon Gardner, you really let me down tonight!!!!:angry:

QCIASOXFAN
06-08-2006, 11:15 PM
Dammit Jon Gardner, you really let me down tonight!!!!:angry: :?: :?: How the hell can you just blame him?

yesenia
06-08-2006, 11:36 PM
they again had plenty of scoring opportunities but nothing....no runs. its not just pitching. he stayed in the game too long. its fine for ozzie to have faith in his team but he knows his guys better than they know themselves. he should ahve pulled garland out and put the kid tracey in earlier. well atleast it was 2 out of 3.

Chicken Dinner
06-08-2006, 11:50 PM
Were there issues tonight, hell yes. Garland gave up the homers (league leading is not good), again. Mack screwed up and so did ump watching PK. Pitches were way up, not what he was doing last year. He is a credible 5 guy but he's being paid as much as a 2 guy. I seriously don't think he'll be pitching in Chicago next year.

getonbckthr
06-08-2006, 11:57 PM
As trade bait,
Son he is not trade bait. Why you ask? A little thing called:
NO TRADE CLAUSE!

Chips
06-09-2006, 01:18 AM
This thread sucks. I'm not even going to put the image up.

DSpivack
06-09-2006, 01:25 AM
Yeah, we can ride Garland to the Series....good thing you only need 4 starters in the playoffs.

areilly
06-09-2006, 03:11 AM
Guys, I was at that game. Score was 2-2, Garland was at something like 102 pitches when Ozzie came out to talk to him for the first time. Garland stays in; 4 runs given up just like that. At the very least, 3 of those go to the Sox' D rather than to Garland's pitching. The two-run homer? Fine, but if that last out is made it's a non-issue. He wasn't pitching that bad, just pitching too long.

Likewise, even without the HR, it's a 4-2 game and we all saw how the Sox' offense rallied in the end. One run, four runs...it didn't matter what Detroit did. They won, we lost. Tomorrow is another day.


Good thing we didn't drape that 'Sweep the Leg Jonny' banner from the front of section 507!

Grzegorz
06-09-2006, 05:00 AM
Guys, I was at that game. Score was 2-2, Garland was at something like 102 pitches when Ozzie came out to talk to him for the first time. Garland stays in; 4 runs given up just like that. At the very least, 3 of those go to the Sox' D rather than to Garland's pitching. The two-run homer? Fine, but if that last out is made it's a non-issue. He wasn't pitching that bad, just pitching too long.

Likewise, even without the HR, it's a 4-2 game and we all saw how the Sox' offense rallied in the end. One run, four runs...it didn't matter what Detroit did. They won, we lost. Tomorrow is another day.
Defense is the key; that is why the loss of BA is so problematic. If the White Sox cannot fill CF with a credible CF'er (no not Erstad) Anderson has to stay up.

I'd love to see him get at bats down in the minors to get his stroke down, but not at the expense of the defense of the parent club.

I believe the pitching will hold. Defense, or the lack thereof, will end up killing this team in the end. Mark my words...

To the White Sox; go out and hammer the Tribe. No let downs go get them and put them down.

ChiSox62-
06-09-2006, 06:24 AM
Well since there have been many "this thread sucks" or "this is the worst poll evewr at WSI" let me explain my thinking. First of all, I have always been a huge garland fan. Even before last season I used to always say to people that he has good stuff. He will come around. I couldnt have been happier for him last year. So this was not a poll out of anger for last nights game or out of dislike for garland. I just personally believe that McCarthy is a better option. It is clear to me that the central/wild card races are gonna be tough the entire way. It is also clear to me that it might take some time until the sox get it all together. I mean offensively, defensively, starting rotation and bullpen. So the point I am trying to make is this. IF Garland did not have a season like last year, would there still be so many defenders of him staying in the rotation? I dont think so. Hopefully he can turn it around, but im not holding my breath. As much as I would love it, and would rather him pitch very well in the starting rotation, I just dont see it happening. The first homerun was bad, but i got over it. The mistake wasnt the homerun, it was walking shelton after getting ahead 1-2. The next 2 runs were by no means do to Garland's bad pitching. But the thing I cannot take is the homerun after that. He lost the game on that pitch. Yes bad defense can really hurt a pitcher's mentality, but he has to be stronger than that. Half of his starts he has given up 5 or more runs. That just isnt good enough for a team with world series aspirations. I just think the sox would be stronger with mccarthy pitching, and KW acquiring any type of bullpen help he can find.

And by the way, i respect everyone's opinion. I do not understand why some people always find the need to attack a poster if they do not agree with that person's opinion. Maybe next time, instead of posting "this thread sucks" or this is a terrible poll, just state your opinion, and grow up. Not everyone has to agree with each other, especially in baseball. Thats why the game is so great. I do not post here often b/c i hate how some people find the need to attack each other rather then just discuss the game.

jenn2080
06-09-2006, 07:20 AM
Judy is the same pitcher he was two years ago.Giving up the one big inning.I'm sick and tried of Judy.

Click your heels 3 times and say theres nothing like a win theres nothing like a win.

jenn2080
06-09-2006, 07:21 AM
Guys, I was at that game. Score was 2-2, Garland was at something like 102 pitches when Ozzie came out to talk to him for the first time. Garland stays in; 4 runs given up just like that. At the very least, 3 of those go to the Sox' D rather than to Garland's pitching. The two-run homer? Fine, but if that last out is made it's a non-issue. He wasn't pitching that bad, just pitching too long.

Likewise, even without the HR, it's a 4-2 game and we all saw how the Sox' offense rallied in the end. One run, four runs...it didn't matter what Detroit did. They won, we lost. Tomorrow is another day.


Good thing we didn't drape that 'Sweep the Leg Jonny' banner from the front of section 507!

ROB NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF CENTER!!!!!!!!!!!

The_Floridian
06-09-2006, 07:36 AM
Chisox62,

You ask if we would all defend Garland had he not had the year he had last year. That's a pretty obvious one. Of course we wouldn't.

But he did have the eyar he had last year. He won 18 games. He broke out. He is clearly capable of being that good. Was it his peak year? It's possible, but I don't think the first two months of a new season, a season where there is mroe expectation on him than ever before, is a good enough indicator to say, "Sorry Jon, off to the bullpen with you." Garland has more than earned the right to pitch show he can be the pitcher he was last year, and the only way for him to do that is to give him the starts. Anything else, in my opinion, would be insane.

Now, I understand your thinking here. McCarthy has shown he has the potential to be a top flight starter. But then, Garland has too, hasn't he? And he's done it for a full season, hasn't he? AND we are weak from the right side in our bullpen, correct? So, why move a guy who is used to throwing 7 innings every five days into a spot where he's throwing a couple every two. Do you really think you'll get better results?

Furthermore, since McCarthy will probably need some time to build up arm strength to be able to go six or seven innings at a shot (he was only able to go four his last start...it takes time to re-adjust after being a bullpen guy all year), that means more work for the bullpen, which is the last thing we need right now.

I hope you see I am not being disrespectful of your take on this. I just honestly don't believe it is a good move. Putting McCarthy in the rotation means, no matter what, more work for the pen, our weakest spot, until his arm gets built up. It will also reinforce to Garland the kind of second guessing he struggled under when Jerry Manuel pulled him for years at the first sign of trouble. Ozzie and Coop let Garland get lit up a few times so that he could become the guy who won 18 games. I also think McCarthy will be a stellar starter in the future, but two months of so-so pitching by Garland is not enough to get him yanked.

SoxFan76
06-09-2006, 09:16 AM
Son he is not trade bait. Why you ask? A little thing called:
NO TRADE CLAUSE!

Son, he could be trade bait. Why you ask?

A PITCHER CAN ACCEPT A TRADE TO ANY TEAM HE WANTS (Minus a few here and there as noted in his contract)

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 09:18 AM
Where's the "this poll sucks" option? That's all we need right now is one less arm in the 'pen.

Ditto, and I'd like to change my vote once it gets fixed. This thread belongs next to the excessive flubsessives in What's the Score.

:threadsucks:

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 09:23 AM
This poll sucks. In fact, it's the worst poll I've ever seen at WSI.

Garland stays in the rotation, McCarthy in the right-handed middle relief role. Period. End of discussion. Screw you guys, I'm going home.

I couldn't agree more.

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 09:24 AM
Garland pitched very well tonight. Just got run over by a Mack truck.

.

Post of the day

ode to veeck
06-09-2006, 09:37 AM
Well since there have been many "this thread sucks" or "this is the worst poll evewr at WSI" let me explain my thinking. First of all, I have always been a huge garland fan. Even before last season I used to always say to people that he has good stuff. He will come around. I couldnt have been happier for him last year. So this was not a poll out of anger for last nights game or out of dislike for garland. I just personally believe that McCarthy is a better option. It is clear to me that the central/wild card races are gonna be tough the entire way. It is also clear to me that it might take some time until the sox get it all together. I mean offensively, defensively, starting rotation and bullpen. So the point I am trying to make is this. IF Garland did not have a season like last year, would there still be so many defenders of him staying in the rotation? I dont think so. Hopefully he can turn it around, but im not holding my breath. As much as I would love it, and would rather him pitch very well in the starting rotation, I just dont see it happening. The first homerun was bad, but i got over it. The mistake wasnt the homerun, it was walking shelton after getting ahead 1-2. The next 2 runs were by no means do to Garland's bad pitching. But the thing I cannot take is the homerun after that. He lost the game on that pitch. Yes bad defense can really hurt a pitcher's mentality, but he has to be stronger than that. Half of his starts he has given up 5 or more runs. That just isnt good enough for a team with world series aspirations. I just think the sox would be stronger with mccarthy pitching, and KW acquiring any type of bullpen help he can find.

And by the way, i respect everyone's opinion. I do not understand why some people always find the need to attack a poster if they do not agree with that person's opinion. Maybe next time, instead of posting "this thread sucks" or this is a terrible poll, just state your opinion, and grow up. Not everyone has to agree with each other, especially in baseball. Thats why the game is so great. I do not post here often b/c i hate how some people find the need to attack each other rather then just discuss the game.

I think many WSIers are tired of the Garland bashing which is mindless, relentless, and just plain stupid, so a poll that's effectively just gonna draw these shallow sentiments out, regardless of the intent, is gonna draw the ire of those of us tired of the Judy calls and Jon bashers who stupidly compare him to Loaiza (who got his 1st W of the season only yesterday).

Yes, McCarthy clearly has the stuff to be a starter, but switching him now creates a big hole in a pen that needs more help in a couple of spots, but more importantly, McCarthy hasn't been playing, training for a starting role this year and really would take weeks and months to make the transition, so we'd be giving up badly needed pen middle relief for nothing better than what we have today. At best, you'd only get 3-5 innings from Brendan for some time to come.

Hawkeroo1980
06-09-2006, 09:47 AM
This thread gave me diarrea.....absolutely horrible

Garland is pitching better each time out......last night was the product of bad defense and (hate to say it) possibly bad coaching. Probably should have yanked him

SweetnesSox
06-09-2006, 10:42 AM
So the point I am trying to make is this. IF Garland did not have a season like last year, would there still be so many defenders of him staying in the rotation? I dont think so.

that's not what the poll says...

A PITCHER CAN ACCEPT A TRADE TO ANY TEAM HE WANTS (Minus a few here and there as noted in his contract)

Garland has a FULL NO TRADE CLAUSE (since obviously people don't understand unless you type really large) which means he CAN'T BE TRADED to ANYONE. Including any team in the major leages, as noted in his contract.

jongarlandlover
06-09-2006, 10:46 AM
Guys, I was at that game. Score was 2-2, Garland was at something like 102 pitches when Ozzie came out to talk to him for the first time. Garland stays in; 4 runs given up just like that. At the very least, 3 of those go to the Sox' D rather than to Garland's pitching. The two-run homer? Fine, but if that last out is made it's a non-issue. He wasn't pitching that bad, just pitching too long.

Bingo. 3 of those runs need to go to the defense, and if they hadn't made mistakes then the 2-run homer is eradicated. So really, if all had gone right, Jon would have been charged with 1 ER. And yes, Ozzie probably should have taken him out, but he probably wanted to give Jon the chance to work through it. And Jon did go out there and pitch another good inning in the 7th.

I think many WSIers are tired of the Garland bashing which is mindless, relentless, and just plain stupid, so a poll that's effectively just gonna draw these shallow sentiments out, regardless of the intent, is gonna draw the ire of those of us tired of the Judy calls and Jon bashers who stupidly compare him to Loaiza (who got his 1st W of the season only yesterday).


Thank you. The Jon-bashing is just getting stupider and stupider. The last two outings he's had, he's looked pretty good. He's been pitching inside, inside. And last night he wasn't getting some of those inside pitches being called as strikes even though they were.

Garland is pitching better each time out......last night was the product of bad defense and (hate to say it) possibly bad coaching. Probably should have yanked him

Yes. Last night magnified the need of a real CF. I think we just need to keep running BA out there. On another thread it was mentioned that he only has 23 at-bats in 21 games. How, exactly, is he expected to get better with that kind of exposure?

Chicken Dinner
06-09-2006, 10:51 AM
Garland has a FULL NO TRADE CLAUSE (since obviously people don't understand unless you type really large) which means he CAN'T BE TRADED to ANYONE. Including any team in the major leages, as noted in his contract.

He can be traded if he agrees to it.

Jjav829
06-09-2006, 10:53 AM
Let me preface my post by saying that I was on the Heat-Mavs game when the big inning happened, so I didn't see much of it other than the home run.

This is like the pre-2005 Jon Garland. He would always pitch great except for that one big inning, which often times featured a bad defensive play. In 2005 he seemed to be able to pitch around those defensive miscues. Now it's like he's back to crumbling whenever the defense lets him down.

As for the poll question, I'd have to say no. I just think that messes up our pitching too much. Bmac would take a little time to get stretched out and re-adjust to starting. Garland would be almost useless in the pen and have to be strictly a long reliever. It just doesn't make sense. Now if we could convince him to waive his NTC for a trade that lands us a CF and reliever, that's a different story. But it's highly unlikely that he waives his NTC. Garland is definitely in the lead right now to be the starter who gets traded after the season to open a rotation spot for McCarthy.

A. Cavatica
06-09-2006, 12:02 PM
As for the poll question, I'd have to say no. I just think that messes up our pitching too much. Fingernails on a blackboard would take a little time to get stretched out and re-adjust to starting. Garland would be almost useless in the pen and have to be strictly a long reliever. It just doesn't make sense. Now if we could convince him to waive his NTC for a trade that lands us a CF and reliever, that's a different story. But it's highly unlikely that he waives his NTC. Garland is definitely in the lead right now to be the starter who gets traded after the season to open a rotation spot for McCarthy.

There is a practical argument against demoting him, and you characterized it perfectly. I agree. But we have five expensive starters; the master plan calls for the one who pitches the worst to lose his job to FOAB; and Garland has been the worst, both this season and throughout his career. So I think you start stretching out FOAB, and if Garland doesn't get ERA under 5 soon, you work out a deal with Anaheim.

This team is built to win. Everyone has to perform.

ChiSox62-
06-09-2006, 04:09 PM
Ok i understand some of your views...but some things just dont make sense to me. People are saying he is getting better every start. I just dont agree. If you guys have a minute, check out his game log. His 2 best starts were against KC. Take those out and his ERA is over 7. He has given up 13 home runs in his last 6 starts. Yes he was hurt by his defense last night, but what about all of his other starts? What about all of his home runs? The next few starts will be very important. Hopefully he bounces back.

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 04:39 PM
Two years ago I never would have thought I'd be saying this, but I think we all should give Jon a chance to continue what he's been doing. If by the break he still has an ERA over 6 and it is not caused partially by the D behind him, then we can maybe talk. But until then, as has been noted in this thread many times already, Jon has only been getting better.

He's made a few pitches that hung out over the corner and he's been hurt by them, but for the most part he's been going in on the hands of RH hitters and beating them. Earlier in the year his fastball was starting out over the plate and moving to the inside corner or dying over the heart of the plate, which was causing him to be killed. He's not getting hammered now like he was, just a few well placed clutch hits and a few mistakes capitalized on by opposing teams. Nothing to worry about yet IMO.

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 04:43 PM
Ok i understand some of your views...but some things just dont make sense to me. People are saying he is getting better every start. I just dont agree. If you guys have a minute, check out his game log. His 2 best starts were against KC. Take those out and his ERA is over 7. He has given up 13 home runs in his last 6 starts. Yes he was hurt by his defense last night, but what about all of his other starts? What about all of his home runs? The next few starts will be very important. Hopefully he bounces back.

Jon throws strikes and goes inside to righties. When he misses he's liable to be crushed.

I personally don't care about the HR totals like everyone else seems to. As long as he's getting ahead of hitters and making his pitches he's going to make them earn the homers. And as long as he spreads the homers out and doesn't let a bunch of guys reach base I really don't care how many homers they hit off him. One solo homer is a lot better than two singles and a double.

jongarlandlover
06-09-2006, 05:11 PM
Two years ago I never would have thought I'd be saying this, but I think we all should give Jon a chance to continue what he's been doing. If by the break he still has an ERA over 6 and it is not caused partially by the D behind him, then we can maybe talk. But until then, as has been noted in this thread many times already, Jon has only been getting better.

He's made a few pitches that hung out over the corner and he's been hurt by them, but for the most part he's been going in on the hands of RH hitters and beating them. Earlier in the year his fastball was starting out over the plate and moving to the inside corner or dying over the heart of the plate, which was causing him to be killed. He's not getting hammered now like he was, just a few well placed clutch hits and a few mistakes capitalized on by opposing teams. Nothing to worry about yet IMO.

Thank you very, very much.

His past two starts have shown that he's really regaining the confidence that he lost. He's been pitching inside more and when the control's not all the way there, then some get left out over the middle and do get crushed.

hawkjt
06-09-2006, 06:27 PM
So we also get to throw out his other start against KC? you know, the one that he gave up 9 earned runs in 5 innings?

Bottom line is this- he has 6 quality starts in 12 games started
Burls has 7 in 12
Freddie has 9 in 12
Javy has 7 in 10
Jose has 8 in 10

My point here is that Garland has a winning record to date this year, he has the third most wins for any active pitcher 28 and under, and the guy people want put in there has not had a good start all year.

It is a ridiculous proposition- what do you do with garland- send him to the minors.

SweetnesSox
06-09-2006, 07:45 PM
He can be traded if he agrees to it.

well sure, but that would require waving the no-trade clause, which means it's not in effect anymore.

CLR01
06-09-2006, 07:46 PM
It is a ridiculous proposition- what do you do with garland- send him to the minors.


Trade him of course. Someone's not paying attention. :smile:

SweetnesSox
06-09-2006, 10:24 PM
Trade him of course. Someone's not paying attention.

teal, right? I mean... you're joking, right? we've been over the trading issue... Why would Garland want to go anywhere else?

CLR01
06-09-2006, 10:35 PM
Yes the smiley is doing the work of teal tonight.

getonbckthr
06-09-2006, 10:43 PM
Maybe we should get him drunk, then trade him. He won't know what he is waiving!

SweetnesSox
06-09-2006, 10:50 PM
Yes the smiley is doing the work of teal tonight.

scared me for a sec. whew! :D:

lostletters
06-10-2006, 01:18 AM
Garland is the type of pitcher only as good as the defense behind him. If his defense is making mistakes, he suffers. While he was not great last night, he was still good. I still hold that McCarthy is not ready to be a starter yet, he needs more pitches in his arsenal.

Garland has been getting progressively better, just because he got a little beat up by a top notch detriot lineup does not mean we should dump him. On the contrary, there was alot I saw that game that I liked. He was attacking hitters in the inside more and he has progressed since the begining of the season. He got hurt by fielding mistakes.

vegyrex
06-10-2006, 11:11 AM
Two years ago I never would have thought I'd be saying this, but I think we all should give Jon a chance to continue what he's been doing. If by the break he still has an ERA over 6 and it is not caused partially by the D behind him, then we can maybe talk. But until then, as has been noted in this thread many times already, Jon has only been getting better.

I feel the same way. Two years ago I would have joined the "lets dump Jon Garland" crowd but I'm still enjoying the after glow of our world series win and since Jon was a HUGE part of that victory, I'm much more forgiving and patient now. :smile:

vegyrex
06-10-2006, 11:32 AM
I agree that the defense screwed up, but the "one bad inning" trait that is part of Garland's reputation isn't a myth. Most good pitchers who posses equal talent have a better competitive mindset that allows them to bear down and get the needed outs. Black Jack is my all-time favorite Sox pitcher, and I wonder how he would've reponded in the same situation. I understand that's not comparing apples to apples, but I still wonder.



Jack is also one of my all time fave Sox players. Its my understanding Jon is a much better pitcher than Jack was. But Jack had much more mental toughness and was able to succeed.

Just the same, Jon has a world series ring and Jack doesn't. I'm willing to cut Jon some slack and hope he comes around by the All-Star break.

A. Cavatica
06-10-2006, 02:39 PM
Its my understanding Jon is a much better pitcher than Jack was.

What a ludicrous statement. Your understanding is wrong. Look up the career records sometime.

SweetnesSox
06-10-2006, 03:38 PM
What a ludicrous statement. Your understanding is wrong. Look up the career records sometime.

I think he's talking about pitcher vs. thrower.

nsolo
06-10-2006, 03:51 PM
Jack is also one of my all time fave Sox players. Its my understanding Jon is a much better pitcher than Jack was. But Jack had much more mental toughness and was able to succeed.

Just the same, Jon has a world series ring and Jack doesn't. I'm willing to cut Jon some slack and hope he comes around by the All-Star break.

You can't be serious!! Using that same logic, Uribe has a World Series ring, does that mean you'd rather have him versus Aparicio?

As I said earlier, I knew that I wasn't comparing "apples to apples", by Garland's mindset seems to slip in tough situations.

SweetnesSox
06-10-2006, 03:59 PM
Garland's mindset seems to slip in tough situations.

like in the world series. don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to allude to him being soft?

nsolo
06-10-2006, 04:18 PM
like in the world series. don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to allude to him being soft?

Good point, I defer, an unfair stretch. Yet will you admit that the there are a number of bad innings that seem to haunt Garland?

I ask that question with the full disclosure that I'd love to see B.M in a starting role.

Beauty35thStreet
06-11-2006, 12:33 AM
I am so sick of Garland I want him traded in a package deal in off season he is a 5th starter nothing more , 1yr WONDER:angry:

Ha Ha Ha

I don't know about that, he's not an ACE, but he's not that bad

Also, why the put in McCarthy for Garland. I think McCarthy is worse right now

JohnBasedowYoda
06-11-2006, 12:37 AM
I just saw this thread. If Garland can't get it done then sure. It doesn't matter if we spent a lot of money on him. If he can't do it....move him. Last year could've been a career year.

Beauty35thStreet
06-11-2006, 12:37 AM
Indefinitely. If the defense was letting down any other pitcher, I'd still complain about it.

And Buehrle hasn't been looking great in his past two starts, but I don't see people on here panicking...

Come on .... :) Buehrle has shown inconsistency in the past, but nothing like Garland. Buehrle still managed to put up good numbers in 02, 03, 04 and 05 despite some bad couple of months. Remember 03 when he was 2-10 (Not all Buehrle's fault though)? However, Buehrle has proven he can correct himself, where as Garland has only proven that his potential is real (2005).

That being said, this thread is ridiculous. If anyone has consistency problems right now its B Mac! He needs the opportunity to start. (eyes rolling)

TDog
06-12-2006, 02:52 AM
I checked out the results of tonight's game and was looking for the "replace Garcia with McCarthy" thread, but this was the closest I could find.

Lighten up, guys.

rowand33
06-12-2006, 03:25 AM
I think we should just have B.Mac and Contreras pitch every other game and move Buehrle, Garland, and Garcia to the bullpen.

jongarlandlover
06-12-2006, 05:04 PM
Come on .... :) Buehrle has shown inconsistency in the past, but nothing like Garland. Buehrle still managed to put up good numbers in 02, 03, 04 and 05 despite some bad couple of months. Remember 03 when he was 2-10 (Not all Buehrle's fault though)? However, Buehrle has proven he can correct himself, where as Garland has only proven that his potential is real (2005).

That being said, this thread is ridiculous. If anyone has consistency problems right now its B Mac! He needs the opportunity to start. (eyes rolling)

i know that. i'm just saying that jon has a couple bad starts and people go crazy, screaming for him to be traded and all. it just aggravates the hell outta me.:tongue:

jongarlandlover
06-12-2006, 05:06 PM
Garland is the type of pitcher only as good as the defense behind him. If his defense is making mistakes, he suffers. While he was not great last night, he was still good. I still hold that McCarthy is not ready to be a starter yet, he needs more pitches in his arsenal.

Garland has been getting progressively better, just because he got a little beat up by a top notch detriot lineup does not mean we should dump him. On the contrary, there was alot I saw that game that I liked. He was attacking hitters in the inside more and he has progressed since the begining of the season. He got hurt by fielding mistakes.

jon's been doing much better over his past few starts. he's been pitching inside much more and attacking the hitters. even in his last start, he still had 7 Ks. and saying he got hurt by fielding mistakes is a BIG understatement. macko's mistake really hurt that whole inning.

soxinem1
06-12-2006, 06:01 PM
jon's been doing much better over his past few starts. he's been pitching inside much more and attacking the hitters. even in his last start, he still had 7 Ks. and saying he got hurt by fielding mistakes is a BIG understatement. macko's mistake really hurt that whole inning.

While I don't believe Garland should be replaced, this type of result is on par for JG. His composure is zilch.

Why are people making excuses for him? Is he the only pitcher victimized by occasional lapses by his fielders? I think Buerhle has been victimized much more so than Garland for the past four seasons now. Garland has only given up a third as many unearned runs as Buerhle has in that time, which means that the 'D' has played better for him.

But everytime a few plays are mishandled, he loses it. I sat there screaming that 'I bet he hangs one to Thames', and what happens? He loops one right there for him to kill. Little Leaguers pitch with more heart and composure than Garland.

I don't see anyone complaining with the scorching grounders and warning track liners that get caught behind Garland. Besides, these things balance out. The defense has bailed Garland out hundereds of times the past few years. What kind of team player just loses it like this just because his team makes a mistake behind him? I don't see them ripping him when his numerous HR pitches are flying out like rockets when they just battled to give him a lead!

He has pitched game after game in which he looks like Cy Young, then becomes Anthony Young. I have personally been at two games with Garland having 6-0 leads, late in the gaee, only to watch him blow it within five minutes, and each time because of 'a play that should have been made'. That's total BS, Garland needs to grow up, and if he hasn't done it by his seventh year in the majors, he won't.

To have the stuff this guy has, and have the career stats he has, minus four months last year, he is no better than a number five starter. They should have left him unsigned for next year, let him pitch for a contract, then let this head case walk at the end of the season.

In the long run, he's better than El Duque, Mike Porzio, Tom Fordham, Joe Magrane, and the scores of other dimwits who have been fifth starters in the past.

Since we are stuck with him for three years, we should just realize that he is no better than a number five, and quit discussing it, for it does nothing to change the situation.

SweetnesSox
06-12-2006, 06:04 PM
While I don't believe Garland should be replaced, this type of result is on par for JG. His composure is zilch.

Why are people making excuses for him? Is he the only pitcher victimized by occasional lapses by his fielders? I think Buerhle has been victimized much more so than Garland for the past four seasons now. Garland has only given up a third as many unearned runs as Buerhle has in that time, which means that the 'D' has played better for him.

But everytime a few plays are mishandled, he loses it. I sat there screaming that 'I bet he hangs one to Thames', and what happens? He loops one right there for him to kill. Little Leaguers pitch with more heart and composure than Garland.

I don't see anyone complaining with the scorching grounders and warning track liners that get caught behind Garland. Besides, these things balance out. The defense has bailed Garland out hundereds of times the past few years.

He has pitched game after game in which he looks like Cy Young, then becomes Anthony Young. I have personally been at two games with Garland having 6-0 leads, only to watch him blow it within five minutes, and each time because of 'a play that should have been made'. That's total BS, Garland needs to grow up, and if he hasn't done it by his seventh year in the majors, he won't.

To have the stuff this guy has, and have the career stats he has, minus four months last year, he is no better than a number five starter. They should have left him unsigned for next year, let him pitch for a contract, then let this head case walk at the end of the season.

In the long run, he's better than El Duque, Mike Porzio, Tom Fordham, Joe Magrane, and the scores of other dimwits who have been fifth starters in the past.

Since we are stuck with him for three years, we should just realize that he is no better than a number five, and quit discussing it, for it does nothing to change the situation.

:rolleyes: JG has the third highest win total for pitchers under 27.

soxinem1
06-12-2006, 06:09 PM
:rolleyes: JG has the third highest win total for pitchers under 27.

That's only because he came up when he was 20. He had a chance to get 10 wins before the others on that list were even in the majors. Win totals of 4,6,12,12,12 are not of an ace. His four months of beating up on the Tigers and Royals last year lead to over-expectation.

Like I said, he'll do as a number five, but to expect more on a consistent basis is unrealistic.

jongarlandlover
06-12-2006, 06:32 PM
:rolleyes: JG has the third highest win total for pitchers under 27.

i love you jim. :tongue:

SweetnesSox
06-13-2006, 10:20 AM
Like I said, he'll do as a number five, but to expect more on a consistent basis is unrealistic.

why?? he's a kid. most major leage ballplayers break out at age 27 than any other age. Why do you expect JG to break out sooner?

sullythered
06-13-2006, 10:34 AM
Judy is the same pitcher he was two years ago.Giving up the one big inning.I'm sick and tried of Judy.
Why is it we are not allowed to refer to Brandon by the nickname HE chooses, but people are allowed to freely make the same intensely offensive and utterly sexist statement about a player on a daily basis? Just asking.

trailboss
06-13-2006, 10:58 AM
Why is it we are not allowed to refer to Brandon by the nickname HE chooses, but people are allowed to freely make the same intensely offensive and utterly sexist statement about a player on a daily basis? Just asking.


And it's time to stop this immature practice. BMAC is his nickname. He's had it since college. He likes it. Get over it.:dtroll:

hawkjt
06-13-2006, 01:48 PM
Garland certainly has earned the right to be called by his given name. He is 4-3 on the season and has been disapointing but he has a winning record. Does that count for anything?

I have always felt his stuff was just average but he can be tough when he is pinpoint. I think he has squeezed pretty much the best he has out of his arm.

If his sinker comes back he could have a big second half. Certainly passable for a 5th starter.

CLR01
06-13-2006, 02:18 PM
Why is it we are not allowed to refer to Brandon by the nickname HE chooses, but people are allowed to freely make the same intensely offensive and utterly sexist statement about a player on a daily basis? Just asking.

It happened a few days ago and he has already served his ban. If it happens again he gets a week.

trailboss
06-13-2006, 03:29 PM
And that stupid "fingernails" thing?

PaulDrake
06-13-2006, 03:50 PM
While I don't believe Garland should be replaced, this type of result is on par for JG. His composure is zilch.

Why are people making excuses for him? Is he the only pitcher victimized by occasional lapses by his fielders? I think Buerhle has been victimized much more so than Garland for the past four seasons now. Garland has only given up a third as many unearned runs as Buerhle has in that time, which means that the 'D' has played better for him.

But everytime a few plays are mishandled, he loses it. I sat there screaming that 'I bet he hangs one to Thames', and what happens? He loops one right there for him to kill. Little Leaguers pitch with more heart and composure than Garland.

I don't see anyone complaining with the scorching grounders and warning track liners that get caught behind Garland. Besides, these things balance out. The defense has bailed Garland out hundereds of times the past few years. What kind of team player just loses it like this just because his team makes a mistake behind him? I don't see them ripping him when his numerous HR pitches are flying out like rockets when they just battled to give him a lead!

He has pitched game after game in which he looks like Cy Young, then becomes Anthony Young. I have personally been at two games with Garland having 6-0 leads, late in the gaee, only to watch him blow it within five minutes, and each time because of 'a play that should have been made'. That's total BS, Garland needs to grow up, and if he hasn't done it by his seventh year in the majors, he won't.

To have the stuff this guy has, and have the career stats he has, minus four months last year, he is no better than a number five starter. They should have left him unsigned for next year, let him pitch for a contract, then let this head case walk at the end of the season.

In the long run, he's better than El Duque, Mike Porzio, Tom Fordham, Joe Magrane, and the scores of other dimwits who have been fifth starters in the past.

Since we are stuck with him for three years, we should just realize that he is no better than a number five, and quit discussing it, for it does nothing to change the situation. I agree with everything you said except lumping in El Duque with those other stiffs. An old El Duque with a bum shoulder came up mighty big for us when it really counted last year. El Duque is one of the smartest, "clutch" pitchers I've ever seen. Too bad he didn't get to pitch in the MLs in his prime. On the main point, like I said you're right. Garland has more than exhausted my patience. I only hope he's exhausted his own patience with himself and starts pitching with some real moxie like an El Duque.

JorgeFabregas
06-13-2006, 10:37 PM
McCarthy and Garland looked pretty good pitching in the same game. :D:

hawkjt
06-18-2006, 07:47 PM
I have to revise my opinion on Jon - he is extremely tough when he is pinpoint.

Jon is 6-3 with 18 more starts remaining - he could easily end up winning 16-17 games and this thread will look silly.

ChiSox62-
06-18-2006, 08:02 PM
In his 2 starts since i started this thread he has pitched fantasticly. I would love to look back at this thread in october laughing at how wrong I was. So far so good. Keep it up Jonny!! Go Sox!!

GOGOGOPODS
06-18-2006, 09:35 PM
No way.... Garland is NOT leaving the rotation. He is looking like the 2005 Garland we know and love