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View Full Version : Jason Grimsley - Steroid user/unemployed


Jjav829
06-06-2006, 11:13 PM
You would think that the steroids would have made him work a little faster.

Arizona Diamondbacks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=ari) pitcher Jason Grimsley (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4425) told federal investigators he used illegal performance-enhancing drugs, according to court documents unsealed late Tuesday.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2473485)

DSpivack
06-06-2006, 11:40 PM
Call me an idiot, but what benefit does steroids exactly bring to a pitcher? For a hitter, I understand how a player would get stronger, ball travels faster, etc. Does velocity go up, endurance, ?

HotelWhiteSox
06-06-2006, 11:41 PM
Call me an idiot, but what benefit does steroids exactly bring to a pitcher? For a hitter, I understand how a player would get stronger, ball travels faster, etc. Does velocity go up, endurance, ?

I would guess endurance and leg strength would play a big role

Vernam
06-06-2006, 11:45 PM
Call me an idiot, but what benefit does steroids exactly bring to a pitcher? For a hitter, I understand how a player would get stronger, ball travels faster, etc. Does velocity go up, endurance, ?Right, endurance. Recovery time is reduced between pitching appearances and workouts. Pitching causes muscle inflammation that steroids help repair faster than rest alone can do.

According to BBTN, Grimsley is giving the feds names of other users in MLB.

Vernam

FedEx227
06-06-2006, 11:49 PM
Right, endurance. Recovery time is reduced between pitching appearances and workouts. Pitching causes muscle inflammation that steroids help repair faster than rest alone can do.


Exactly, the ability for the muscles to work much more then they had before, longer outings, more leg strength, more shoulder strength.

I've heard many insiders of baseball say that pitchers actually get more help from steroids then hitters would.

QCIASOXFAN
06-06-2006, 11:49 PM
Call me an idiot, but what benefit does steroids exactly bring to a pitcher? For a hitter, I understand how a player would get stronger, ball travels faster, etc. Does velocity go up, endurance, ? I guess it helps the muscles recover faster and not be as soar after making starts as well as bouncing back from injuries faster. I think its more of an endurance thing throughout a long season to help you make it to the end also without becoming
tired.

DSpivack
06-06-2006, 11:59 PM
Exactly, the ability for the muscles to work much more then they had before, longer outings, more leg strength, more shoulder strength.

I've heard many insiders of baseball say that pitchers actually get more help from steroids then hitters would.

That's interesting. I guess after awhile we'll really see the **** hit the fan. I wonder which pitchers, certainly some stars, used, though there is no point in speculating, really.

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-07-2006, 01:04 AM
He's taking steriods, yet he isn't a good pitcher at all

HotelWhiteSox
06-07-2006, 01:05 AM
I actually have some hope in this investigation now. Though it depends if they found out about the HGH that was delivered to his home by tracking it or just from him telling them. I didn't care before, because it all meant nothing with no HGH testing, but if they could trace it back to the suppliers, especially if Grimsley is naming names

Wsoxmike59
06-07-2006, 05:48 AM
Jason Grimsley is also the genius who crawled through the ceiling and broke in to the umpires locker room at New Comiskey Park and replaced Albert Belle's confiscated corked bat that the Sox caught him using with a Paul Sorrento model! Nice career you had there....LOSER!

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

4. Albert Belle (OF, DH, Indians, White Sox, Orioles, 1989-2000)
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/mlb/2000/0409/photo/a_oreos.jpg
Albert Belle reportedly used more cork than a vintner.On July 15, 1994, Belle's bat was confiscated by umpire Dave Phillips after White Sox manager Gene Lamont voiced his suspicion that the bat was corked. The Indians knew it was corked, and set out to replace the bat, which Phillips had put in his locker.

During the game, Indians pitcher Jason Grimsley wriggled through a crawl space above the ceiling above the umpires' locker room, dropped through an escape hatch, and replaced the corked model with a conventional one. "My heart was going 1,000 miles a second," said Grimsley. "I just rolled the dice, a crapshoot."


But the caper was easily found out -- the faux Belle model Grimsley had put in Phillips locker had Paul Sorrento's name on it. Belle was suspended for seven games.

In his autobiography, released just a few weeks ago, former Belle teammate Omar Vizquel wrote about the "Batgate" incident: "I can be naive at times, but I'm not stupid. Certainly not stupid enough to steal Albert's corked bat and replace it with one that looked completely different -- one that was autographed by Paul Sorrento. That wasn't even a nice try. The problem, of course, was that all of Albert's bats were corked."

RoobarbPie
06-07-2006, 09:20 AM
Here is the affidavit:

http://www.azcentral.com/pdfs/060706grimsley.pdf

mccoydp
06-07-2006, 09:50 AM
Call me an idiot, but what benefit does steroids exactly bring to a pitcher? For a hitter, I understand how a player would get stronger, ball travels faster, etc. Does velocity go up, endurance, ?

Ask Roger Clemens.

havelj
06-07-2006, 10:02 AM
PURE SPECULATION:
Check out the second paragraph BELOW and second name blacked out where he names a player. It appears to start with the letter "J" and has the exact number of letters to spell out a player on the Sox who Grimspley played with on the Roylas.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0607061grimsley13.gif

TheOldRoman
06-07-2006, 10:05 AM
Ask Roger Clemens.
Unless they make anabolic donuts or Brown's Chicken fried in "the clear", I don't think Clemens has taken steroids.

daveeym
06-07-2006, 10:09 AM
Can't wait to see the unredacted version of that affidavit.

Chisox1500
06-07-2006, 10:11 AM
I'd guess again on ol' Roger. He had a nice 2nd career after bottoming out in Boston.

D. TODD
06-07-2006, 10:44 AM
It is being reported that a major admission and focus of Grimsely's comments to the fed's are about amphetamines. He said that the clubhouse he has been in have two coffee pots one labeled leaded (with the amphetamine performance enhancers in them) and one labeled unleaded. I would be happy for the hypocrisy of the law and the fans overlooking mlb's LONGTIME encouragement of using performance enhancers in the form of amphetamines get the same scrutiny and legal prosecutions for breaking federal laws as other abuses that have occurred. Enforce all cheating with all players throughout the game.

I would much rather see the focus be on ridding the game of all performance enhancers from this point on, but if past "cheaters" are to be stirred up get it all!

D. TODD
06-07-2006, 10:49 AM
I'd guess again on ol' Roger. He had a nice 2nd career after bottoming out in Boston. It's all guess work, and that's not really fair. He may be a prime candidate, who has been mentioned often, but what does that mean? Nothing! Many, many, many players have used to varying extents, but naming individuals on assumptions is weak.

RoobarbPie
06-07-2006, 10:50 AM
PURE SPECULATION:
Check out the second paragraph BELOW and second name blacked out where he names a player. It appears to start with the letter "J" and has the exact number of letters to spell out a player on the Sox who Grimspley played with on the Roylas.



I was worried that that could be JD as well when I read that paragraph, but hopefully it's not.

This has the potential to get pretty ugly for Grimsley and the players named. They'll be leaked at some time in the future, that's for sure...

Ol' No. 2
06-07-2006, 10:58 AM
It's all guess work, and that's not really fair. He may be a prime candidate, who has been mentioned often, but what does that mean? Nothing! Many, many, many players have used to varying extents, but naming individuals on assumptions is weak.This is the problem with unfounded speculation. Lots of players who've done nothing to deserve it get their names tarnished. Rise above that sort of thing, people.

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 11:09 AM
I wonder what actual evidence Grimsley would have on other players? Unless he says "I saw XXX taking", him saying that XXX "told me he got it from Dr YYY" would be fairly weak IMO. Now that could lead to a search of Dr YYY's offices for records, but absent any other corroborating evidence I'd think it's unlikely that Jason will do much more than create a PR storm for other players.

But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 11:16 AM
Reading the whole affidavit, it looks like "Player J" (the one speculated about by havelj) "first told Grimsley about the doctor in Florida last winter", so it seems like it was either a current teammate/training partner or a good friend, which would be far more limiting than the roster of people he's played with in his career.

Jerko
06-07-2006, 11:38 AM
I admit I didn't scan this affidavit, but where does it say "Player J" was a Royal? It just says ex-teammate. 2 people spring to mind other than JD.

AZChiSoxFan
06-07-2006, 11:41 AM
Exactly, the ability for the muscles to work much more then they had before, longer outings, more leg strength, more shoulder strength.

I've heard many insiders of baseball say that pitchers actually get more help from steroids then hitters would.

Exactly. The curious thing to me the last 3 or 4 years is that everybody wants to speculate on all the hitters who might be using steroids, but nobody ever talks about pitchers being on the juice.

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 11:51 AM
FWLIW, someone "analyzed" the online copy of the affidavit over at the Sons of Sam Horn with these results:

I actually converted page 15 of that document into a Photoshop file and played with the contrast and brightness, with no luck. It seems to me that the players he was referring to were Oriole teammates in 2005. In future references to one player, they just use his last name. After looking at the spacing and formatting of the letters in the document I've concluded that the last name is a 4 or 5 letter name (due to the blackened out size and adjusting for the spaces before and after the name).

According to Baseball-reference (http://baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2005.shtml) , some of the 4 or 5 letter last names on the 2005 Orioles are:

Lopez (Javy)
Sosa
Mora
Matos (Louis)
Gomez
Gil (3 letters)

Very interesting...

There's more:

Ryan
Julio
Reed
Penn
Kline
Chen
Bauer (one of the names appears to end in R)

Dolanski
06-07-2006, 11:56 AM
Here is some food for thought. They conducted the investigation in mid April. He did his interview with the agents then. This affidavit was dated May 31st. He named names. My guess is all of those people named in the affidavit have already had visits from the feds and have either denied or given up evidence like Grimsley. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first of MANY documents coming to light about current players being investigated for using illegal drugs.

I have to admit, I am on pins and needles waiting to hear who and what, etc. At the same time, man, I am really going to feel terrible if one of the players nabbed is someone on the Sox or someone I happened to follow.

Finally, I love how Grimsley's response to this is "I have no comment about that and no idea about that." No idea? What, you don't remember getting busted at home? Cmon guy!

RoobarbPie
06-07-2006, 12:01 PM
FWLIW, someone "analyzed" the online copy of the affidavit over at the Sons of Sam Horn with these results:

Nice find Flight. Sports radio today has been mentioning the Oriole players as the most likely ones mentioned.

AZChiSoxFan
06-07-2006, 12:03 PM
Lots of players who've done nothing to deserve it get their names tarnished.

Done nothing to deserve it, other than support the almighty union in its efforts to keep any anti-drug provisions out of the CBA. Done nothing to deserve it, other than choosing to look the other way when the guy in the locker next to you shoots up.

Call me harsh but I have no sympathy for any clean player who gets falsely accused of using the stuff.

I'm not asking for clean players to be snitches but if you're not going to police the game yourself (via the union, not snitching out individual players), then don't cry to me when you get falsely accused.

If you're going to associate with pigs, you're going to get some mud on yourself. That's just a fact.

In the long history of MLB, players have not gotten better after the age of 35. Now, in the last 5 years, we've seen two large notable exceptions to that rule. But I guess those two guys just work out harder than any other players. Sorry, not buying that. You call it speculation that should be avoided, I call it the laws of mother nature.

AZChiSoxFan
06-07-2006, 12:04 PM
But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?

Do you at least play one on TV?

Ol' No. 2
06-07-2006, 12:14 PM
FWLIW, someone "analyzed" the online copy of the affidavit over at the Sons of Sam Horn with these results:So he's "narrowed it down" to half the Orioles roster?

Ol' No. 2
06-07-2006, 12:16 PM
Done nothing to deserve it, other than support the almighty union in its efforts to keep any anti-drug provisions out of the CBA. Done nothing to deserve it, other than choosing to look the other way when the guy in the locker next to you shoots up.

Call me harsh but I have no sympathy for any clean player who gets falsely accused of using the stuff.

I'm not asking for clean players to be snitches but if you're not going to police the game yourself (via the union, not snitching out individual players), then don't cry to me when you get falsely accused.

If you're going to associate with pigs, you're going to get some mud on yourself. That's just a fact.

In the long history of MLB, players have not gotten better after the age of 35. Now, in the last 5 years, we've seen two large notable exceptions to that rule. But I guess those two guys just work out harder than any other players. Sorry, not buying that. You call it speculation that should be avoided, I call it the laws of mother nature.Unfounded speculation is nothing more than gossip. If you want to be a gossip, have at it.

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 12:36 PM
So he's "narrowed it down" to half the Orioles roster?

Well, from starting with the roster of teams Grimsley's played with, that's not a bad start.

(plus, it seems to point away from JD).

But as I said - FWLIW.

samram
06-07-2006, 12:51 PM
I admit I didn't scan this affidavit, but where does it say "Player J" was a Royal? It just says ex-teammate. 2 people spring to mind other than JD.

It doesn't say that, from what I recall. And FWIW, they were only teammates in KC for half of 2001, not before or since.

The Immigrant
06-07-2006, 01:00 PM
I wonder what actual evidence Grimsley would have on other players? Unless he says "I saw XXX taking", him saying that XXX "told me he got it from Dr YYY" would be fairly weak IMO. Now that could lead to a search of Dr YYY's offices for records, but absent any other corroborating evidence I'd think it's unlikely that Jason will do much more than create a PR storm for other players.

But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?

The Feds could offer him a deal, or immunity from prosecution, in exchange for his testimony against other players or "bigger fish." They could then use his affidavit and promise of testimony to roll over other players, working their way up the food chain to the ultimate distributors of this stuff. While his testimony about "Dr YYY" would be hearsay in this situation that's enough for a grand jury indictment, and John Kass will tell you that once the indictment start rolling in, people start talking fast to save their own skin.

This could get really ugly for the players and teams that were involved.

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 01:03 PM
The Feds could offer him a deal, or immunity from prosecution, in exchange for his testimony against other players or "bigger fish." They could then use his affidavit and promise of testimony to roll over other players, working their way up the food chain to the ultimate distributors of this stuff. While his testimony about "Dr YYY" would be hearsay in this situation that's enough for a grand jury indictment, and John Kass will tell you that once the indictment start rolling in, people start talking fast to save their own skin.

This could get really ugly for the players and teams that were involved.

If I were a player with a halfway decent lawyer, and the main evidence against me was another player who was rolling over to cut a deal, I'd take my chances because Grimsley's word qualifies for "reasonable doubt".

Which makes him only useful to the extent that he can lead the Feds to actual evidence or more people who can build a circumstantial case. His word/testimony by itself is fairly meaningless.

Dolanski
06-07-2006, 01:11 PM
When I first heard about this, my first question was who the heck is Jason Grimsley? That got me thinking, if someone like him got busted, a major league journeyman, it makes me wonder if maybe Ken Camaniti and Jose Canseco weren't exaggerating when they said that most of MLBers were using steroids...

Lip Man 1
06-07-2006, 01:16 PM
Isn't Grimsley the guy who crawled through the duct work at Comiskey Park during the Albert Belle corked bat incident?

Lip

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 01:23 PM
Isn't Grimsley the guy who crawled through the duct work at Comiskey Park during the Albert Belle corked bat incident?

Lip

Yes, and obviously the 'roids gave him the increased speed & endurance to make that possible!

HotelWhiteSox
06-07-2006, 01:52 PM
Wow, apparently Keith Olberman (friend of Grimsley) was doing his segment on the Dan Patrick show, and said that hundreds of players were named. ****, meet fan

HotelWhiteSox
06-07-2006, 02:04 PM
DBacks release Grimsley

The Dude
06-07-2006, 02:05 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2474291

Jerko
06-07-2006, 02:06 PM
DBacks release Grimsley

Before anybody starts a poll, no, I don't want him on the White Sox. :cool:

Flight #24
06-07-2006, 02:11 PM
DBacks release Grimsley

What a strange coincidence!

chaerulez
06-07-2006, 02:30 PM
This is huge. This is MLB's new dirty secret they didn't want getting out. Because remember MLB tests for steroids. Oh wait, we don't test for HGH. Is it really a surprise then that players are STILL on HGH if MLB doesn't test for it? No. But MLB would still like you to believe everything is clean in the game. This proves how stupid Selig and his crew along with the players union are. Did they really think it would just go away? That HGH would not be heard of again? Morons, all of them.

soxfan26
06-07-2006, 02:31 PM
The only place any of these athletes are ever going to be "guilty" is in the court of public opinion.

The Federal Government has shown continued incompetence in conducting the "investigations" and an outright reluctance to prosecute even when they have a 42 count indictment in hand. If you add up the sentences of each person who has plead guilty to conspiracy in this case you don't even make it to 24 months. That's including house arrest.

Major League Baseball isn't going to get any more pressure from the Federal Government (save some political grandstanding) and has zero motivation to persue this issue.

BALCO Barry and the others have nothing to fear except investigative journalism that will amount to nothing but continued speculation.

ViPeRx007
06-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Here is the affidavit:

http://www.azcentral.com/pdfs/060706grimsley.pdf


Those first few blackouts you can actually read what's behind them if you scroll just right..

Like, his address is blacked out, but you can read it:

10972 East Fanfol Lane
Scottsdale, Arizona

Not that that really says anything, but just thought it was kind of weird.

RKMeibalane
06-07-2006, 02:44 PM
:hawk

"He Gawn!"

Jaffar
06-07-2006, 03:07 PM
Kenny go get him!!!!

Wsoxmike59
06-07-2006, 04:15 PM
Isn't Grimsley the guy who crawled through the duct work at Comiskey Park during the Albert Belle corked bat incident?

Lip

Yes see post # 10 and it's not even redacted. :D:

StillMissOzzie
06-07-2006, 04:23 PM
I assume that he felt he would no longer be welcome in the clubhouse when reports say that he sang like a canary and named names for the feds. Per ESPN, he asked for and was given a release.

SMO
:gulp:

Daver
06-07-2006, 04:30 PM
This is going to make the Balco case against Bonds look like small pototatoes.

RKMeibalane
06-07-2006, 04:31 PM
I assume that he felt he would no longer be welcome in the clubhouse when reports say that he sang like a canary and named names for the feds. Per ESPN, he asked for and was given a release.

SMO
:gulp:

But the real question is, when will his book come out?

Lip Man 1
06-07-2006, 05:00 PM
The question now is that assuming the story is true and that there may be 'hundreds' of players involved what does MLB do?

If they suspend them all what does that do to the quality of play?
If they decide on amnesty how does the public react?

Lip

getonbckthr
06-07-2006, 05:07 PM
The question now is that assuming the story is true and that there may be 'hundreds' of players involved what does MLB do?

If they suspend them all what does that do to the quality of play?
If they decide on amnesty how does the public react?

Lip
Test everyone. They now have a reason to.

Dolanski
06-07-2006, 05:10 PM
Test everyone. They now have a reason to.

Question: if he is on HGH, one can assume people named are on HGH, there isn't a test out there for it, so what now?

shes
06-07-2006, 05:10 PM
For the sake of argument let's say hundreds = about 200. That means approximately 7 players per team are using if they're all active names, which is not likely; some are probably in the minors now or out of the game. So again, for the sake of argument let's say it's 5 per team. That's still 1/5 (20%) of each team that's using HGH, and obviously that means 1/5 (20%) of MLB is using HGH. That's a colossal problem. Now, hundreds could mean 300 or 400 or more, close to half the league, maybe, which would be an absolutely crippling problem if true.

I'm hoping against hope that it isn't nearly as bad as it might be....

Daver
06-07-2006, 05:29 PM
Question: if he is on HGH, one can assume people named are on HGH, there isn't a test out there for it, so what now?

A blood test will reveal HGH, a urine test, which MLB uses now, will not.

TheKittle
06-07-2006, 05:32 PM
Question: if he is on HGH, one can assume people named are on HGH, there isn't a test out there for it, so what now?

MLB feels that a blood test wouldn't be reliable enough. For some reason the Olympics feel that the blood tests are reliable. Who do you believe?

Dolanski
06-07-2006, 05:52 PM
A blood test will reveal HGH, a urine test, which MLB uses now, will not.

Sorry, I thought that HGH was undetectable. Blood test, yeah, I can see the Player's Union doing their song and dance about violating their memberships right, yada, yada, yada. This is just going to get uglier before it gets better.

Daver
06-07-2006, 06:05 PM
Sorry, I thought that HGH was undetectable. Blood test, yeah, I can see the Player's Union doing their song and dance about violating their memberships right, yada, yada, yada. This is just going to get uglier before it gets better.

A blood test will reveal most HGH, not all, I should have specified that.

When this round is said and done I would not be surprised at all if both Bud Selig and Don Fehr will have resigned.

ilsox7
06-07-2006, 06:07 PM
A blood test will reveal most HGH, not all, I should have specified that.

When this round is said and done I would not be surprised at all if both Bud Selig and Don Fehr will have resigned.

Well, that's progress.

CLR01
06-07-2006, 06:11 PM
But the real question is, when will his book come out?


Nonsense. The real question is how long until the next Giambi apology press confrence?


So how is the MLB "investigaion" coming along? Are they still trying to figure out what their official letterhead will be?


These goofy MLB players must be spending too much time with NFL players. :rolleyes:

rocky biddle
06-07-2006, 06:11 PM
Chicago Tribune Live on Comcast Sports Net just had a pretty interesting segment on all of this. They had Lester Munson on and he seemed to have some inside info. and thorough knowledge of the whole matter. I thought some people here would be interested. The show is re-aired tonight at 11pm and I believe again tomorrow morning at 11am.

They also had footage of some crazy shin-kicking competition, so I guess there's something for everyone...:redneck

CLR01
06-07-2006, 06:14 PM
Chicago Tribune Live on Comcast Sports Net just had a pretty interesting segment on all of this. They had Lester Munson on and he seemed to have some inside info. and thorough knowledge of the whole matter. I thought some people here would be interested. The show is re-aired tonight at 11pm and I believe again tomorrow morning at 11am.

They also had footage of some crazy shin-kicking competition, so I guess there's something for everyone...:redneck


Care to summarize it for people who don't have CSN?

TheKittle
06-07-2006, 06:45 PM
A blood test will reveal most HGH, not all, I should have specified that.

When this round is said and done I would not be surprised at all if both Bud Selig and Don Fehr will have resigned.

To me, this is why Conte should be the person who comes up with a drug test for performance enhancing drugs. I know that sounds weird but since he can come up with performance enhancing drugs that were undetectable, he sure as hell can come up with tests to detect them.

PaulDrake
06-07-2006, 08:00 PM
A blood test will reveal most HGH, not all, I should have specified that.

When this round is said and done I would not be surprised at all if both Bud Selig and Don Fehr will have resigned. One can only hope.

soxfan26
06-07-2006, 08:15 PM
To me, this is why Conte should be the person who comes up with a drug test for performance enhancing drugs. I know that sounds weird but since he can come up with performance enhancing drugs that were undetectable, he sure as hell can come up with tests to detect them.

Conte is nothing more than a drug dealer. Patrick Arnold, or someone like him would be a better choice.

D. TODD
06-07-2006, 10:19 PM
I wonder if a trickle down effect with the NFL, NBA, and NHL occurs with all three eventually following baseball in drug testing. At this point none have blood test. That would be quite ironic. Blood test are still a long way off in any case probaly.

TomParrish79
06-07-2006, 10:31 PM
didnt he play on the Yankees when they were winning their string of championships?? If so we could find out if anyone in that clubhouse was on HGH....and it worries me and he has played with a couple of our current players throughout his career.

getonbckthr
06-07-2006, 10:48 PM
In all honesty the further this goes the less I wanna know. It seams that so many people are involved in this crap that this era of baseball I grew up loving is gonna be considered the darkest time of the game. I wish in a way that baseball could just drop everything involving steroids from today and back. Start fresh with new policies instead of damning the past lets strenghten the future.

QCIASOXFAN
06-07-2006, 11:17 PM
In all honesty the further this goes the less I wanna know. It seams that so many people are involved in this crap that this era of baseball I grew up loving is gonna be considered the darkest time of the game. I wish in a way that baseball could just drop everything involving steroids from today and back. Start fresh with new policies instead of damning the past lets strenghten the future. I think I'm gonna go opposite here and say I wanna know. I want those names to not be blacked out on those documents Grimmey gave the Feds and cant wait until it happens. Its all going to come out sooner or later and at the moment it looks like sooner than later.

Sox-o-matic
06-07-2006, 11:23 PM
In all honesty the further this goes the less I wanna know. It seams that so many people are involved in this crap that this era of baseball I grew up loving is gonna be considered the darkest time of the game. I wish in a way that baseball could just drop everything involving steroids from today and back. Start fresh with new policies instead of damning the past lets strenghten the future.

The circus will continue and its going to get much, much worse before it gets better. As great as it would be to see all this end so the game of baseball could start fresh around the young guys like Pujols and Ryan Howard, things have to get worse to get better.

The **** has to hit the fan big time in order to get the message across not only to players but to MLB especially. Selig wants all this to disappear but that is not going to happen. Now that the government is in all this further than they have ever been, Bud is going to have to really get tough or get the hell out of office. Either way it is an improvement overall.

chaerulez
06-07-2006, 11:36 PM
I now think the biggest problem with this is the don't talk about it and don't give out names attitude that the players have. I just read on chicagosports.com that Jeff Nelson and Ozzie are mad that Grimsley named names. Maybe the only reason Grimsley said anything was just to save his own ass, but do these people not realize we as fans and the ones that end up paying your high salaries, have the right to know who is cheating?

Sox-o-matic
06-07-2006, 11:46 PM
I now think the biggest problem with this is the don't talk about it and don't give out names attitude that the players have. I just read on chicagosports.com that Jeff Nelson and Ozzie are mad that Grimsley named names. Maybe the only reason Grimsley said anything was just to save his own ass, but do these people not realize we as fans and the ones that end up paying your high salaries, have the right to know who is cheating?

Both didn't sound happy about Jason doing that, but IMO you can only get mad at the guy if the players named do not turn out to be on HGH or in posession of HGH now or sometime this season.

I think a lot of players and fans both are sick of all the finger pointing with no proof. If the six or so players Grimsley named are proven guilty I have no problem with that. But if it turns into more he said, she said BS it's just going to ruin careers, give fans even less of a reason to have faith in professional athletes, and provide the fuel for another couple years worth of annoying topics on talk radio.

OzzyTrain
06-08-2006, 12:40 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned or not but here is some more information I gathered.

While the fbi was investigating in the house, Jason was there naming the names and what not, he actually called up a few players over the phone ( and I guess acted normal ) of course the other person on the other line never knew the fbi was listening in. Whats that mean, well if the other person said the right thing, the fbi will be on his case next and so on.

But it will go future, phone records, text messeges, emails, and voice mails will be looked at so if anything was going on and was said in a text message, it will be found and that person will be investigated.

GregoryEtc
06-08-2006, 12:42 AM
This should be enough for most users to be spooked enough to stop. Expect the DL lists around the league to get pretty long pretty quick.

Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd have a look at rosters Grimsley has been on to see if anyone jumped out as being obvious suspects.

Rafael Palmeiro (duh!)
Sammy Sosa (DUH!!!)
Mike Sweeney (numbers have dropped of significantly since career bests in HR & RBI and .333 AVG in 2000)
Carlos Beltran (after putting up monster numbers in KC .. not a hitter's park .. hits only 17 HRs with 78 RBI last year with Mets)
Roger Clemens (had career best 1.87 era LAST YEAR at age 42)
Jeff Nelson (upset that Grimsley named names. Suddenly on DL? if Nelson was using, they didn't work because his numbers have always sucked.)
Dwight Gooden (why not? he was using everything else!)
Albert Belle (left league from degenerative hip disorder similar to Bo Jackson's. Used a corked bat. Known cheater.)
Manny Ramirez (weight listed as 190 lbs. OK but what does his OTHER arm weigh?)
Brian Giles (big spike in production during McGuire-Bonds years)
Luis Gonzalez (hit 57 HRs in 2001, more than his next two full seasons combined! Never hit more than 31 any other year.)

SoxandtheCityTee
06-08-2006, 12:45 AM
When I first heard about this, my first question was who the heck is Jason Grimsley? That got me thinking, if someone like him got busted, a major league journeyman, it makes me wonder if maybe Ken Camaniti and Jose Canseco weren't exaggerating when they said that most of MLBers were using steroids...

I've thought for some time now that the types of players most likely to use performance enhancers are those for whom the impact of the drugs at the margin makes it worth the risk. This would include very different types: at one end, guys struggling to stay in the bigs and journeymen trying to hang on with their latest team; at the other, good players whose jobs are safe but who figure they can move into superstar territory and huge earnings, and aging or injured superstars who find it too hard to walk away when their skills diminish or they need time to recover.

TheKittle
06-08-2006, 12:46 AM
Conte is nothing more than a drug dealer. Patrick Arnold, or someone like him would be a better choice.

Umm no Conte was the guy who came up with cream or clear. He's not only a dealer but a producer of drugs.

TheKittle
06-08-2006, 12:50 AM
This should be enough for most users to be spooked enough to stop. Expect the DL lists around the league to get pretty long pretty quick.

Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd have a look at rosters Grimsley has been on to see if anyone jumped out as being obvious suspects.

Rafael Palmeiro (duh!)
Sammy Sosa (DUH!!!)
Mike Sweeney (numbers have dropped of significantly since career bests in HR & RBI and .333 AVG in 2000)
Carlos Beltran (after putting up monster numbers in KC .. not a hitter's park .. hits only 17 HRs with 78 RBI last year with Mets)
Roger Clemens (had career best 1.87 era LAST YEAR at age 42)
Jeff Nelson (upset that Grimsley named names. Suddenly on DL? if Nelson was using, they didn't work because his numbers have always sucked.)
Dwight Gooden (why not? he was using everything else!)
Albert Belle (left league from degenerative hip disorder similar to Bo Jackson's. Used a corked bat. Known cheater.)
Manny Ramirez (weight listed as 190 lbs. OK but what does his OTHER arm weigh?)
Brian Giles (big spike in production during McGuire-Bonds years)
Luis Gonzalez (hit 57 HRs in 2001, more than his next two full seasons combined! Never hit more than 31 any other year.)

Brady Anderson. Not sure if he was teammates with Grimsley. But 50 HR's and he might have hit 50 the rest of his career?? Plus a year after being a teammate of Raffy?? Noooooooooo he couldn't be on the juice.

StillMissOzzie
06-08-2006, 02:21 AM
Also picked up this tidbit in reading through the latest stories: Even though Grimsley asked for and was granted his release, the confessed multi-year cheater will still get paid the remaining salary due on his $825,000 contract for the 2/3 of the season that he's begging off for. "No negotiations, a released player gets paid" - Grimsley's agent, IIRC. Sounds reasonable to me.

After all the talk about Giambi having violated the terms of his contract, you'd think grounds have been established for what constitutes such a violation, especially if it's self-admitted. Maybe $825,000 is chicken feed to the D-Backs.

SMO
:o: :mad:

Grzegorz
06-08-2006, 04:54 AM
As great as this game is, it is still in need of an enema. Remember anyone can name names but the person named may very well be innocent. That innocent person who happens to get smeared has a very difficult road to clearing his name.

Think about how great this game is; strikes and steroids wobble the game, but it never fails to right itself.

TornLabrum
06-08-2006, 08:27 AM
I now think the biggest problem with this is the don't talk about it and don't give out names attitude that the players have. I just read on chicagosports.com that Jeff Nelson and Ozzie are mad that Grimsley named names. Maybe the only reason Grimsley said anything was just to save his own ass, but do these people not realize we as fans and the ones that end up paying your high salaries, have the right to know who is cheating?

I have a strange feeling that if the Feds told Ozzie or Jeff Nelson to name names or do hard time, they'd suddenly morph into canaries.

samram
06-08-2006, 09:13 AM
I have a strange feeling that if the Feds told Ozzie or Jeff Nelson to name names or do hard time, they'd suddenly morph into canaries.

Yeah, but you only think that because it's true. To be honest, I was pretty unhappy with Ozzie's and Nelson's reactions. This isn't a guy scuffing a ball- this is a guy apparently committing federal offenses. Even Thome's response was odd:

"We're trying to do a good job of clearing the steroid issue," Thome said. "From testing to everything else, it has been positive.

"Unfortunately, when things like this happen, it makes the fans wonder what's going on in that regard."

Link. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060607soxbrite,1,7147201.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

Jim, we know what's going on- the question is who did it and who's doing it.

Flight #24
06-08-2006, 09:28 AM
Umm no Conte was the guy who came up with cream or clear. He's not only a dealer but a producer of drugs.

Actually, IIRC Conte was not the inventor of those, he was the guy who produced & sold them (i.e. the dealer). The inventor was a guy from U of I Champaign (Isn't that Arnold?).

daveeym
06-08-2006, 09:29 AM
I've thought for some time now that the types of players most likely to use performance enhancers are those for whom the impact of the drugs at the margin makes it worth the risk. This would include very different types: at one end, guys struggling to stay in the bigs and journeymen trying to hang on with their latest team; at the other, good players whose jobs are safe but who figure they can move into superstar territory and huge earnings, and aging or injured superstars who find it too hard to walk away when their skills diminish or they need time to recover.And that pretty much covers every player then. Because for every guy using roids to get to that next level, it bumps someon not using down a level, in turn "forcing" them to use to keep up.

daveeym
06-08-2006, 09:31 AM
Also picked up this tidbit in reading through the latest stories: Even though Grimsley asked for and was granted his release, the confessed multi-year cheater will still get paid the remaining salary due on his $825,000 contract for the 2/3 of the season that he's begging off for. "No negotiations, a released player gets paid" - Grimsley's agent, IIRC. Sounds reasonable to me.

After all the talk about Giambi having violated the terms of his contract, you'd think grounds have been established for what constitutes such a violation, especially if it's self-admitted. Maybe $825,000 is chicken feed to the D-Backs.

SMO
:o: :mad: That's "go dissapear with Sosa," money. The entire MLB chips in on it.

rocky biddle
06-08-2006, 09:47 AM
Care to summarize it for people who don't have CSN?
Sorry about my lag in response. I Tivo'd last night's showing and just watched it again. Here's a synopsis-

-Balco investigation had levelled off and was almost over, so this is a major breakthrough

-Grimsley gave up about 12 big names

-This forces Selig and the player's union to do something about HGH, showdown coming over blood testing

-Some Bulgarian body builder allegedly brings the HGH in from Mexico. He's been working with the agent from the Balco investigation for two years now and likely gave up Grimsley

-He doesn't think Congress will get involved again. Bonds wasn't brought in front of Congress because of the criminal investigation,
most likely same scenario here.

-Munson believes the authors of 'Game of Shadows' are "totally connected" to the guy running the investigation and believes they'll
know the names of the player's soon. His timetable was 3-4 weeks.

-HGH is less dangerous, but not quite as effective as anabolic steroids. Also is undetectable through urine tests and the side
effects tend to disappear once a player goes off of them

-Someone on the panel asked if HGH was more of a pitcher's drug. Munson said steroids are usually thought to be a hitter's substance
but most of the guys getting caught are pitchers. He called Kevin Brown "my favorite steroidal pitcher." He said you watch Brown
and you see the clinic on what happens to steroid users. But he said it was being used by both position players and pitchers

-Munson was asked if these new allegations against average players using steroids could help Barry Bonds (the theory being
that if everyone was on steroids then Bonds' skill distinguishes him.) He said, "It could in a perverse way make his situation a little
better. Anytime the spotlight goes off him and on to somebody else, he's gonna be a little bit happier."

-The next step is a grand jury and we'll see who they drag in to testify. It's gonna turn into a "reporting contest" to see who could
get the names first in the next 3-4 weeks

Flight #24
06-08-2006, 09:51 AM
OK, I'm a bit confused and maybe those more knowledgeable than I can help clear something up.

I keep hearing 2 different things:
1) Baseball should test for HGH using Blood tests
2) There is no accepted/reliable test for HGH

These 2 are spouted off pretty consistently, including Rob Manfred(MLBPA) saying that no governing body anywhere has ever had an HGH suspension upheld, and various talking heads saying that blood testing can "close the HGH loophole". (Of course, in general I tend to disbelieve anything I hear from an MLBPA rep, and the ignorance of mediots is unparallelled.)

Which is it? Because if even the "gold standard" of the Olympics can't push through an HGH suspension, then what the heck can baseball even do? I'm all in favor of using whatever tests are out there, but if they're not reliable, you're opening up a HUGE can of worms in terms of not actually being able to penalize anyone but still having the specter of a false positive.

Ol' No. 2
06-08-2006, 10:01 AM
This should be enough for most users to be spooked enough to stop. Expect the DL lists around the league to get pretty long pretty quick.

Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd have a look at rosters Grimsley has been on to see if anyone jumped out as being obvious suspects.

Rafael Palmeiro (duh!)
Sammy Sosa (DUH!!!)
Mike Sweeney (numbers have dropped of significantly since career bests in HR & RBI and .333 AVG in 2000)
Carlos Beltran (after putting up monster numbers in KC .. not a hitter's park .. hits only 17 HRs with 78 RBI last year with Mets)
Roger Clemens (had career best 1.87 era LAST YEAR at age 42)
Jeff Nelson (upset that Grimsley named names. Suddenly on DL? if Nelson was using, they didn't work because his numbers have always sucked.)
Dwight Gooden (why not? he was using everything else!)
Albert Belle (left league from degenerative hip disorder similar to Bo Jackson's. Used a corked bat. Known cheater.)
Manny Ramirez (weight listed as 190 lbs. OK but what does his OTHER arm weigh?)
Brian Giles (big spike in production during McGuire-Bonds years)
Luis Gonzalez (hit 57 HRs in 2001, more than his next two full seasons combined! Never hit more than 31 any other year.)As great as this game is, it is still in need of an enema. Remember anyone can name names but the person named may very well be innocent. That innocent person who happens to get smeared has a very difficult road to clearing his name.

Think about how great this game is; strikes and steroids wobble the game, but it never fails to right itself.Do you find these two posts inconsistent?

SOXPHILE
06-08-2006, 10:13 AM
I now think the biggest problem with this is the don't talk about it and don't give out names attitude that the players have. I just read on chicagosports.com that Jeff Nelson and Ozzie are mad that Grimsley named names. Maybe the only reason Grimsley said anything was just to save his own ass, but do these people not realize we as fans and the ones that end up paying your high salaries, have the right to know who is cheating?

I'm more than a little dissapointed in Nelson's and Ozzie's comments on this. I'm getting sick and tired of everybody acting like since Grimsley got caught, he should maintain this "code of silence" thing, and not say anything. Come on guys. Show us your serious about cleaning up the game, instead of getting pissy when one of your own gets caught, and reveals that others in the game or on the stuff too.

soxfan26
06-08-2006, 10:34 AM
Actually, IIRC Conte was not the inventor of those, he was the guy who produced & sold them (i.e. the dealer). The inventor was a guy from U of I Champaign (Isn't that Arnold?).

That's my understanding of it as well, Conte thoroughly educated himself about the substances but had nothing to do with 'developing' them.

samram
06-08-2006, 10:42 AM
Do you find these two posts inconsistent?

Well, in defense of the posts, they were by two different people (check the source of the second post).:smile:

patbooyah
06-08-2006, 10:48 AM
OK, I'm a bit confused and maybe those more knowledgeable than I can help clear something up.

I keep hearing 2 different things:
1) Baseball should test for HGH using Blood tests
2) There is no accepted/reliable test for HGH

These 2 are spouted off pretty consistently, including Rob Manfred(MLBPA) saying that no governing body anywhere has ever had an HGH suspension upheld, and various talking heads saying that blood testing can "close the HGH loophole". (Of course, in general I tend to disbelieve anything I hear from an MLBPA rep, and the ignorance of mediots is unparallelled.)

Which is it? Because if even the "gold standard" of the Olympics can't push through an HGH suspension, then what the heck can baseball even do? I'm all in favor of using whatever tests are out there, but if they're not reliable, you're opening up a HUGE can of worms in terms of not actually being able to penalize anyone but still having the specter of a false positive.

there isn't a test for HGH out there, but what "people" are saying is that MLB should stop destroying urine samples (blood if they ever get them) because someday they will discover a test for HGH and can go back and test old samples. knowing that you could one day be proven guilty of doping would be a strong deterrant.

i think the issue is that when they do figure out a test for HGH it is very possible that it will require blood, something players don't have to give right now.

GregoryEtc
06-08-2006, 10:55 AM
Do you find these two posts inconsistent?

The first quote was mine. The second one was someone else named "Grzegorz (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=8423)". That's not me.

As for smearing players names... until the players' union steps up and starts taking responsibility instead of hiding everything, everyone's a suspect.

sullythered
06-08-2006, 11:29 AM
I'm more than a little dissapointed in Nelson's and Ozzie's comments on this. I'm getting sick and tired of everybody acting like since Grimsley got caught, he should maintain this "code of silence" thing, and not say anything. Come on guys. Show us your serious about cleaning up the game, instead of getting pissy when one of your own gets caught, and reveals that others in the game or on the stuff too.
This is kind of a weird situation. I am adamantly against the use of performance enhancing drugs, but I still get a bad feeling every time a player rolls over on former teammates. I really don't know how to feel here.

Dolanski
06-08-2006, 11:47 AM
Also picked up this tidbit in reading through the latest stories: Even though Grimsley asked for and was granted his release, the confessed multi-year cheater will still get paid the remaining salary due on his $825,000 contract for the 2/3 of the season that he's begging off for. "No negotiations, a released player gets paid" - Grimsley's agent, IIRC. Sounds reasonable to me.

After all the talk about Giambi having violated the terms of his contract, you'd think grounds have been established for what constitutes such a violation, especially if it's self-admitted. Maybe $825,000 is chicken feed to the D-Backs.

SMO
:o: :mad:

As bad as that is, that's what having a strong union does for them. And for all the Giambi talk, they never did anything. It was more like posturing than anything else. Had they even attempted it, they would have lost. It was a statement made to make everyone feel better about how the Yankees were handling the situation.

On the same note, I love how guys on the DBacks were giving Grimsley props for asking for his release so he "wouldn't be a distraction." Please. He is an instant pariah and would have been trashed everywhere he went. He didn't ask for his release to save his teammates, he asked for his release to cover his own hide.

Then again, if I were in his shoes, I would do the same. Best not to be out of the spotlight as much as possible when you are in this deep.

Ol' No. 2
06-08-2006, 12:11 PM
Well, in defense of the posts, they were by two different people (check the source of the second post).:smile:Oops. Too many of these names look alike for us OF.:redface:

Ol' No. 2
06-08-2006, 12:14 PM
there isn't a test for HGH out there, but what "people" are saying is that MLB should stop destroying urine samples (blood if they ever get them) because someday they will discover a test for HGH and can go back and test old samples. knowing that you could one day be proven guilty of doping would be a strong deterrant.

i think the issue is that when they do figure out a test for HGH it is very possible that it will require blood, something players don't have to give right now.I'm pretty sure there is a test for HGH. (Gotta do some research when I get time.) But it's naturally occurring in your system, so a "positive" test is based on level, not presence.

RoobarbPie
06-08-2006, 12:24 PM
I'm pretty sure there is a test for HGH. (Gotta do some research when I get time.) But it's naturally occurring in your system, so a "positive" test is based on level, not presence.

Don't they test for HGH in the Olympics and Track and Field?? They take blood and urine for both IIRC.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2006, 12:44 PM
According to the stories I've read, the HGH test currently used involves a blood test and is not 100% reliable. That from a story by Bob Klapish.

Lip

DSpivack
06-08-2006, 01:06 PM
Not too surprising, but anyone see the horse **** that is the Cubune today? Saying how this is suddenly a problem for the Sox. Ridiculous.

mccoydp
06-08-2006, 01:08 PM
Not too surprising, but anyone see the horse **** that is the Cubune today? Saying how this is suddenly a problem for the Sox. Ridiculous.

I'm not surprised in the least.

Jaffar
06-08-2006, 01:25 PM
According to the stories I've read, the HGH test currently used involves a blood test and is not 100% reliable. That from a story by Bob Klapish.

Lip
It sounds like the problem with the test is that lawyers have found the perfect way to argue it in the court of law and that's why nothing get's held up.


"You could almost certainly detect someone who had been taking hGH but whether you could provide evidence that would allow them to be convicted legally is another matter," Baxter said. Baxter said that while an accuracy rate of 95% was typically accepted for tests that diagnose disease, the level of certainty required for sport doping tests was higher.

"For this sort of drug testing where you have extremely clever lawyers and extremely highly paid athletes who will spend any amount of money to stay in the game ... you might need a 99.9% level of certainty just to convict somebody."
Source from article in 2004 (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1164674.htm)

sullythered
06-08-2006, 03:13 PM
Not too surprising, but anyone see the horse **** that is the Cubune today? Saying how this is suddenly a problem for the Sox. Ridiculous.
Wait... What?! Please elaborate, as I refuse to read that bird cage liner. How is any of this a Sox issue?

rocky biddle
06-08-2006, 03:46 PM
Wait... What?! Please elaborate, as I refuse to read that bird cage liner. How is any of this a Sox issue?

I'm assuming he's referring to this (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060607downey,1,6004349.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed). Look at the last few paragraphs on the second page. Downey says something like, of course Ozzie assured us the Sox are clean. Then he talks about how Thome and Dye have more homers than the whole cub team and how Contreras plays a lot younger than he looks. But that's ok though because he ends it with a cute little aside about future ball players looking up to these "clean Sox."

Trav
06-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Think about how great this game is; strikes and steroids wobble the game, but it never fails to right itself.

Don't sell Selig short.

TornLabrum
06-08-2006, 04:26 PM
This is kind of a weird situation. I am adamantly against the use of performance enhancing drugs, but I still get a bad feeling every time a player rolls over on former teammates. I really don't know how to feel here.
Here's a dose of reality. If the police, FBI, or whoever searches your home and your locker at work, has evidence that you are in possession of an illegal substance, and you wish to avoid hard time, you sing. I don't know the legalities as to whether Grimsley could have been charged either as an accessory or for obstruction of justice, but he did himself a huge favor by cooperating with the FBI.

Only an idiot would keep his mouth shut in the face of the evidence they had on him. This isn't a damned schoolyard, folks. It's the Feds you're dealing with here.

Vernam
06-08-2006, 04:41 PM
Only an idiot would keep his mouth shut in the face of the evidence they had on him. This isn't a damned schoolyard, folks. It's the Feds you're dealing with here.And if they'll go this hard after a non-entity like Grimsley, the apparent likelihood that Bonds -- who we basically know perjured himself -- will be charged with serious felonies has now increased several orders of magnitude. I doubt he's sleeping very well this week.

Vernam

sullythered
06-08-2006, 04:56 PM
Here's a dose of reality. If the police, FBI, or whoever searches your home and your locker at work, has evidence that you are in possession of an illegal substance, and you wish to avoid hard time, you sing. I don't know the legalities as to whether Grimsley could have been charged either as an accessory or for obstruction of justice, but he did himself a huge favor by cooperating with the FBI.

Only an idiot would keep his mouth shut in the face of the evidence they had on him. This isn't a damned schoolyard, folks. It's the Feds you're dealing with here.
Yeah, I know. And every bit of logic tells me that I would do the same thing. Not only that, but I know it's probably the right thing to do. That still doesn't keep me from having a funny feeling in my gut about it. That's all.

Also, when Grimley rolled, he knew there would be some backlash. He put himself in the position initially. It's 100% his fault, so I think it's wrong to give Ozzie and Nelson (hehe, Ozzie Nelson) a tough time about ripping Grimsley, even if their logic is flawed.

dropkick371
06-08-2006, 05:21 PM
Deadspin has discovered some names.

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

thecip
06-08-2006, 05:34 PM
from deadspin (http://deadspin.com/):

How reliable are these names? We feel pretty confident in them, but we can’t go 100 percent, since the information is secondhand. We’ll say this: If Bud Selig issuing a press release naming the names is a 10, and picking a player at random out of the Baseball Encyclopedia is a 1, we’re at an 8.

As many people have guessed, one of the “former players” who were sold out by Grimsley (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0607061grimsley12.html): Sammy Sosa. Our source(s) couldn’t confirm if the other was Rafael Palmeiro.

Nothing new or exciting about that name. Then it starts to get interesting. We’ve heard amphetamine rumors of Miguel Tejada, but we can’t confirm that. What we can confirm? The doozy.


sigh. Say it ain't so, Albert!

oeo
06-08-2006, 05:39 PM
They have nothing, just know that there is a connection between Mihlfeld and Pujols. I hope he hasn't taken anything, but this is just starting rumors.

shaunburnette
06-08-2006, 05:40 PM
This is going to get real ugly real fast.

PennStater98r
06-08-2006, 05:42 PM
But his head is not big...

Max Power
06-08-2006, 05:46 PM
How timely, the recent Sports Illustrated that Had Pujols on the cover discussed AP's working relationship with Chris Mihlfeld in some depth.
But again, just bacause JG said Mihlfeld was a source for HGH doesn't prove that AP took it.
Yes, this is going to get pretty ugly soon.

TheDarkGundam
06-08-2006, 05:48 PM
They have nothing, just know that there is a connection between Mihlfeld and Pujols. I hope he hasn't taken anything, but this is just starting rumors.
Yeah, i'm not believing anything until they make an official statement.
While we're discussing this, I have a VERY reliable source who says one of the names is...
Sorry, I couldn't think of anyone who would be funny to name.

QCIASOXFAN
06-08-2006, 05:55 PM
Noting suprises me anymore.

DaleJRFan
06-08-2006, 05:59 PM
UGH. So if anyone has a lot of talent and power, they are immediate suspects? I guess this is the end-game for an era of baseball tainted with cheaters, senate hearings, finger pointing and speculation ... :(:

SBSoxFan
06-08-2006, 06:06 PM
UGH. So if anyone has a lot of talent and power, they are immediate suspects?

Talent, power, and gets injured! I even heard talk this morning of Thomas being on HGH. :mad:

I vote this thread gets moved to "what's the score" -- mods please?

Dolanski
06-08-2006, 06:16 PM
Here's a dose of reality. If the police, FBI, or whoever searches your home and your locker at work, has evidence that you are in possession of an illegal substance, and you wish to avoid hard time, you sing. I don't know the legalities as to whether Grimsley could have been charged either as an accessory or for obstruction of justice, but he did himself a huge favor by cooperating with the FBI.

Only an idiot would keep his mouth shut in the face of the evidence they had on him. This isn't a damned schoolyard, folks. It's the Feds you're dealing with here.

The Feds supposedly asked him to wear a wire and try to nail Bonds and that was when he said to speak with his lawyers. I agree that in that hot of water, you cooperate. This isn't the mafia, this isn't the schoolyard as TL put it. But I think wearing a wire to bust your fellow players, yeah, I can't blame him for refusing that. I also can't blame the Feds for throwing him to the media wolves after his refusal.

Trav
06-08-2006, 06:19 PM
Thanks Selig and Fehr. Since you two were not interested in a clean game because you were making so much money, now you have a guy who, by all acounts, is the ant-Bonds- A true hero for what he does off the field- is going be smeared by rumors because of what you were not willing to do.

ChiSoxLifer
06-08-2006, 06:55 PM
This from a Cardinals friendly site. Interesting reading....
http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php


I know this is nothing but speculation at this point. If they can correlate Bonds with his Balco trainer they can correlate Pujols with Mihlfield (Kansas City area trainer). I would hate for this to be true. Outside of the White Sox, Albert is the one player I like to follow. It also points out Grimsley likely sold out Sosa. I can't say this one bothers me. The unbelievable part of all this is Grimsley, a third rate middle reliever, managed to knock Barroid Bonds from the headlines. I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg. Dang it.

daveeym
06-08-2006, 06:57 PM
Deadspin has discovered some names.

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php That would be huge, I'd be very disappointed but I kinda saw that one coming.
Too many red flags there.

ChiSoxLifer
06-08-2006, 07:00 PM
Crap. There's only one thing to do. Allow everyone to take steroids but move the outfield fences back 50 ft.

ma-gaga
06-08-2006, 07:09 PM
Deadspin has discovered some names.

fixed link (http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php)



Deadspin's freaking out because one of the names is Pujols trainer. If Pujols is involved this. Sinks. Baseball.

Someone at Baseball Primer throws out some more names (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/deadspin/) comment without proof. I'll treat that one with more skepticism for now. They also talk about something related to the Deadspin article being a joke.

I'm not sure which way this goes. Right now I'm not sure if this isn't some elaborate hoax.

:gulp:

Dolanski
06-08-2006, 07:33 PM
It also points out Grimsley likely sold out Sosa.
Sold out Sosa? You mean his "I can't speak english" routine in front of Congress wasn't enough?

CLR01
06-08-2006, 07:57 PM
Sorry about my lag in response. I Tivo'd last night's showing and just watched it again. Here's a synopsis-

-Balco investigation had levelled off and was almost over, so this is a major breakthrough

-Grimsley gave up about 12 big names

-This forces Selig and the player's union to do something about HGH, showdown coming over blood testing

-Some Bulgarian body builder allegedly brings the HGH in from Mexico. He's been working with the agent from the Balco investigation for two years now and likely gave up Grimsley

-He doesn't think Congress will get involved again. Bonds wasn't brought in front of Congress because of the criminal investigation,
most likely same scenario here.

-Munson believes the authors of 'Game of Shadows' are "totally connected" to the guy running the investigation and believes they'll
know the names of the player's soon. His timetable was 3-4 weeks.

-HGH is less dangerous, but not quite as effective as anabolic steroids. Also is undetectable through urine tests and the side
effects tend to disappear once a player goes off of them

-Someone on the panel asked if HGH was more of a pitcher's drug. Munson said steroids are usually thought to be a hitter's substance
but most of the guys getting caught are pitchers. He called Kevin Brown "my favorite steroidal pitcher." He said you watch Brown
and you see the clinic on what happens to steroid users. But he said it was being used by both position players and pitchers

-Munson was asked if these new allegations against average players using steroids could help Barry Bonds (the theory being
that if everyone was on steroids then Bonds' skill distinguishes him.) He said, "It could in a perverse way make his situation a little
better. Anytime the spotlight goes off him and on to somebody else, he's gonna be a little bit happier."

-The next step is a grand jury and we'll see who they drag in to testify. It's gonna turn into a "reporting contest" to see who could
get the names first in the next 3-4 weeks


Thank You.

CLR01
06-08-2006, 08:01 PM
from deadspin (http://deadspin.com/):


sigh. Say it ain't so, Albert!



Post a few paragraphs not the whole thing.

CLR01
06-08-2006, 08:05 PM
Thanks Selig and Fehr. Since you two were not interested in a clean game because you were making so much money, now you have a guy who, by all acounts, is the ant-Bonds- A true hero for what he does off the field- is going be smeared by rumors because of what you were not willing to do.


or you have a guy who is going to be smeared because of what he did. We don't know and we will have to wait for it to play out but I remind you this isn't the first time Pujols's name has come up.

It is still nice how you deflect all of the blame to Selig and forget that it is the players taking the drugs and their Union that was/is fighting any testing.

Trav
06-08-2006, 08:34 PM
or you have a guy who is going to be smeared because of what he did. We don't know and we will have to wait for it to play out but I remind you this isn't the first time Pujols's name has come up.

It is still nice how you deflect all of the blame to Selig and forget that it is the players taking the drugs and their Union that was/is fighting any testing.

Oh I don't take the blame off the players one bit. And if Pujols is proven to have used than I will group him with the other cheats. But because a couple of website says he cheated doesn't make it so.

Isn't Donald Fehr the head of the players union? I put the blame for the mess baseball is in on Selig and Fehr. Equally. I don't know how I didn't make that clear in my post you quoted.

ChiSoxLifer
06-08-2006, 08:46 PM
Sold out Sosa? You mean his "I can't speak english" routine in front of Congress wasn't enough?

I'm just rehashing what it said in the article. Obviously, Sammy already did that to himself.

Vernam
06-08-2006, 09:19 PM
Interesting and possibly prophetic story in Slate regarding sportswriters' reluctance to ask the tough questions: Pee No Evil (http://www.slate.com/id/2142937/).

Last year, editors at the Post-Dispatch assembled a task force to investigate whether Mark McGwire had ingested performance-enhancing drugs. After a short stretch of fruitless reporting, the effort died. One would think that Pujols—a 13th-round draft pick who has put on 20 pounds of muscle since his debut in 2001—would at least warrant a gander, or perhaps a flight or two to his native Dominican Republic to check out the friendly neighborhood pharmacies. Yet the paper has lifted nary a finger in examining Pujols' background. "Albert isn't an enhanced thug like some of the other suspects," explains Rick Hummel, the longtime Post-Dispatch baseball writer. "He hasn't grown significantly and he's always had a lot of power. So what's there to look into?"

Vernam

Dolanski
06-08-2006, 09:49 PM
I'm just rehashing what it said in the article. Obviously, Sammy already did that to himself.

I just really enjoy taking cheapshots at Sleazy Sammy.

thecip
06-08-2006, 10:06 PM
Post a few paragraphs not the whole thing.

Noted.

HotelWhiteSox
06-08-2006, 10:13 PM
I have a strange feeling that if the Feds told Ozzie or Jeff Nelson to name names or do hard time, they'd suddenly morph into canaries.
Just speculation, but I have bad vibes about Ozzie in this situation (looking at who has been caught, 'performance enhancers' don't mean they'll enhance your statistics at all. Just have heard weird responses from him on the issue in the last few years)

http://www.canseconet.com/pgfanc02.jpg http://www.canseconet.com/massage.jpg

Trav
06-08-2006, 10:21 PM
Just speculation, but I have bad vibes about Ozzie in this situation (looking at who has been caught, 'performance enhancers' don't mean they'll enhance your statistics at all. Just have heard weird responses from him on the issue in the last few years)

http://www.canseconet.com/pgfanc02.jpg http://www.canseconet.com/massage.jpg

This post may be one of the worst I have ever read.

samram
06-08-2006, 10:41 PM
This post may be one of the worst I have ever read.
You know, I don't know what Ozzie knows, but let's not start having knee-jerk "Worst Post Ever" reactions if the possibility of a Sox player/coach is raised in regard to steroids/HGH. This is going to affect every team in some way, shape, or form. Let's not bury our heads in the sand in pretend the Sox have never had a player to experiment with this stuff.

Trav
06-08-2006, 10:46 PM
You know, I don't know what Ozzie knows, but let's not start having knee-jerk "Worst Post Ever" reactions if the possibility of a Sox player/coach is raised in regard to steroids/HGH. This is going to affect every team in some way, shape, or form. Let's not bury our heads in the sand in pretend the Sox have never had a player to experiment with this stuff.

I know it is a possibility that the Sox are going to be affected but that doesn't mean it can't make me sick...

samram
06-08-2006, 10:50 PM
I know it is a possibility that the Sox are going to be affected but that doesn't mean it can't make me sick...

Same here. I was out for a couple of beers tonight with some buddies and one is a huge Cards fan. He was talking to another Cards fan on his cell and when he got off, he said something to the effect that apparently Pujols' personal trainer is a known HGH supplier. I'm not vouching for tht at all, but my buddy just said that if that's true, he doesn't want to be a baseball fan anymore.

Trav
06-08-2006, 10:59 PM
Same here. I was out for a couple of beers tonight with some buddies and one is a huge Cards fan. He was talking to another Cards fan on his cell and when he got off, he said something to the effect that apparently Pujols' personal trainer is a known HGH supplier. I'm not vouching for tht at all, but my buddy just said that if that's true, he doesn't want to be a baseball fan anymore.

Up until last October, there was a long time that I did not want to be a baseball fan. I have tried giving it up but I just can't help it.

dickallen15
06-08-2006, 11:00 PM
I would bet the White Sox have had their fair share of steroid and HGH users over the years. The thing with Grimsley being caught, he's a guy if you look at him, or his performance, juicing wouldn't come to mind. I'm sure plenty of White Sox also took greenies. No matter what, this will not take down the game. All that talk about McGwire and Sosa saving the game was a bunch of BS. The only thing it might have saved is player's ridiculous salaries, if that. If Pujols is or was using, so what, the game will go on. If there is no reliable test for HGH right now, get every player's blood sample and when there is a reliable test, test for it. It will act as a deterrent right now.

Trav
06-08-2006, 11:04 PM
I would bet the White Sox have had their fair share of steroid and HGH users over the years. The thing with Grimsley being caught, he's a guy if you look at him, or his performance, juicing wouldn't come to mind. I'm sure plenty of White Sox also took greenies. No matter what, this will not take down the game. All that talk about McGwire and Sosa saving the game was a bunch of BS. The only thing it might have saved is player's ridiculous salaries, if that. If Pujols is or was using, so what, the game will go on. If there is no reliable test for HGH right now, get every player's blood sample and when there is a reliable test, test for it. It will act as a deterrent right now.


I don't know that it will. Some guys are just greedy and will get their money. No one is going to take it away from them when they leave the game. I'm sure there are many guys who could care less to be in the HOF or a part of MLB in anyway when they are done playing. What exactly will be done to these players?

dickallen15
06-08-2006, 11:22 PM
I don't know that it will. Some guys are just greedy and will get their money. No one is going to take it away from them when they leave the game. I'm sure there are many guys who could care less to be in the HOF or a part of MLB in anyway when they are done playing. What exactly will be done to these players?

Jail time. HGH is illegal.

Dolanski
06-08-2006, 11:24 PM
I'm sure plenty of White Sox also took greenies. No matter what, this will not take down the game.

I can't recall where I read it (SI, I think?) but back when greenies first came out, HOFer Willie Mays was huge into them. He supplied his team. Obviously, greenies aren't as bad as steroids or HGH (anyone know when they became illegal?), but I mention this for some frame of reference. Here we have an HOFer, revered by most everyone, and he was supplying his team with amphetamines. How does that make you feel about Willie?

OK, flash forward to now. Greenies have been a staple of baseball clubhouses for almost 40 years. It hasn't exactly been a big baseball secret. Guys playing ball have basically grown up with them.

Steroids, HGH, no, definitely not. Steroids have long been known to be a cheaters way, long been outlawed by the govt, other sports (East German women's swimming team, anyone?), etc. HGH is a designer steroid, used BECAUSE it circumvents steroid testing.

Beauty35thStreet
06-08-2006, 11:56 PM
I'm more than a little dissapointed in Nelson's and Ozzie's comments on this. I'm getting sick and tired of everybody acting like since Grimsley got caught, he should maintain this "code of silence" thing, and not say anything. Come on guys. Show us your serious about cleaning up the game, instead of getting pissy when one of your own gets caught, and reveals that others in the game or on the stuff too.

Granted I don't know all the details, but this Nelson blasting Grimsley and Ozzie saying its wrong doesn't sound right. In a federal investigation, I'd give mad props to Grimsley if he kept quiet when ordered to talk, but what is he supposed to do? Not speak? If Grimsley gave up names voluntarily, that's another issue. Could he have not revealed names, hidden names, I don't know, and I don't know if that's right or wrong. Personally, I think its bs that Bonds got nailed, pricks like David Wells go out and call him a cheat, when there are a bunch of other people using them just like him.

I like the post where someone said I bet Nelson and Ozzie would sing like canaries. I don't necessarily agree with the statement, but it's simply states, let's see how you would act under pressure.

Trav
06-09-2006, 12:02 AM
Jail time. HGH is illegal.

So is Pot but no one is going to jail for testing positive unless they are on probation.

CLR01
06-09-2006, 12:22 AM
I like the post where someone said I bet Nelson and Ozzie would sing like canaries. I don't necessarily agree with the statement, but it's simply states, let's see how you would act under pressure.


Exactly, very few people would hush up when a dozen federal agents show up at their home for "a chat and a look around". Especially if/when they start talking about jail time.

CLR01
06-09-2006, 12:24 AM
Isn't Donald Fehr the head of the players union? I put the blame for the mess baseball is in on Selig and Fehr. Equally. I don't know how I didn't make that clear in my post you quoted.



Oops. Somehow I missed the Donald Fehr part. Sorry.

Kogs35
06-09-2006, 12:30 AM
legally can anything happen to donald fehr?

HotelWhiteSox
06-09-2006, 12:47 AM
Exactly, very few people would hush up when a dozen federal agents show up at their home for "a chat and a look around". Especially if/when they start talking about jail time.

And all it does is bring up suspicions on you. When you're in a game where success has somewhat to do with beating the competition, and the competition has an illegal advantage, wouldn't you want it to be brought out in the open? Unless, maybe you're hiding something you don't want out in the open.

I would wonder if some umpire conspiracy was uncovered, and what the players and managers would say about fellow umpires having a code of silence

Trav
06-09-2006, 01:04 AM
Oops. Somehow I missed the Donald Fehr part. Sorry.

Not a problem. You had me worried that I put the wrong name in there as I am known to do...

HotelWhiteSox
06-09-2006, 05:07 AM
Prediction, Pujols fires trainer and states no knowledge of any of this type of activity. Probably like Bonds or Sheffield, "never knowingly" taking anything. Though, if the names are correct, the trainer didn't provide the stuff, he referred him to a guy that did. Doesn't really soften the blow I guess.

Wasn't Sosa spotted in Vegas about a week ago? How fast did he flee the country? He got off pretty scotfree with his 'no understand' act and now disappeared. He should not get off, he had his share of ruining the record books. And to think, some Flub fans actually believed him when he said he didn't knowingly use a cork bat.

Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but found the wire part of the story interesting. In a different article, it was stated how the feds wanted Grimsley to wear a wire, and try and get to Bonds and friends so he could incriminate himself. He refused. The baseball world is interested in the names and the HGH debacle, trying to uncover everything possible, since it is huge, but kind of weird that the main interest/driving force of the feds is to get to Bonds (I guess for Balco and perjury). Might as well look at everyone (I'm sure they're on it though).

JorgeFabregas
06-09-2006, 08:04 AM
I agree that Ozzie's comments about this mess have been very interesting and a little worrying.

I saw a fluff piece on Pujols a couple weeks back and when they mentioned people writing about the possibility of PEDs, Pujols said something to the effect of "They're just trying to distract me." Very unconvincing. It was reminiscent of Sosa's "enemics" and "it's hard to stop me" comments.

voodoochile
06-09-2006, 08:39 AM
Jail time. HGH is illegal.

Actually, it's not. All you need is a doctor willing to write you a prescription. The doctor can have his license revoked if he is found to be writing scripts without a valid reason, but with recent developments about possible benefits as an anti-aging drug, that too is starting to change.

If a player can get the prescription and get it filled, he is in no danger from the law. With clinics all over the world willing to take the money to give and fill the prescriptions, players probably won't suffer any legal consequences from using HGH.

samram
06-09-2006, 09:15 AM
That would be huge, I'd be very disappointed but I kinda saw that one coming.
Too many red flags there.

Man, I don't know how I missed these couple of posts when I posted #139, but that's what I was referring to. I agree about the red flags. I tried to justify them for a while, but his comments about Bonds a couple of weeks ago changed my mind and made me pretty suspicious. Wow, that would be a huge blow to baseball.

daveeym
06-09-2006, 09:43 AM
Man, I don't know how I missed these couple of posts when I posted #139, but that's what I was referring to. I agree about the red flags. I tried to justify them for a while, but his comments about Bonds a couple of weeks ago changed my mind and made me pretty suspicious. Wow, that would be a huge blow to baseball.The biggest evidence is just by looking at these guys. They all look like they're straight off the mats of WWF. 15-20 years ago you'd have 1 guy built like this per team. Out of those guys maybe 1/4 of them throughout the league would be all cut and chiseled. You're now seeing 5'10 shortstops and second basemen weighing in at 210-230 while conveniently listed at 185 and looking like a running back.

cheeses_h_rice
06-09-2006, 11:42 AM
Gosh, color me shocked that Sham-ME*'s name appeared with ties to HGH. The man's a saint.

SoxSpeed22
06-09-2006, 12:57 PM
Boers and Bernstein brought this up Wednesday.
Where the hell is/was George Mitchell in any of this? He was supposed to put a stop to this.

samram
06-09-2006, 01:05 PM
Boers and Bernstein brought this up Wednesday.
Where the hell is/was George Mitchell in any of this? He was supposed to put a stop to this.

Actually, I think their point was that Mitchell has no power to do anything. He now wants to talk to Barry Bonds. I'm sure Bonds will develop another injury while he's laughing at him.

Paulwny
06-09-2006, 01:20 PM
From Newsday:

Latino players and coaches on the Yankees and Red Sox had little to say last night about Jason Grimsley's allegation that "Latin players" are major suppliers of amphetamines in big-league clubhouses. But some players were annoyed.

"He should name names," Mariano Rivera said before the game. "But to say Latin players, that implicates all of us. That's not right."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spreact094774823jun09,0,6258254.story?coll=ny-yankees-print

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody answers when I call your name
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Ol' No. 2
06-09-2006, 01:51 PM
When faced with a scandal, the first thing people do is try to cover it up. Yet there are two eternal truths where scandals are concerned:

1. Once it starts coming out, there's no stopping it. Everything will come out.

2. It's far more damaging coming out in dribs and drabs than it is coming out all at once.

MLB and the MLBPA have ignored these to their detriment. This is going to get A LOT worse before it's over.

Flight #24
06-09-2006, 03:13 PM
Good article on the topic here: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/2006-06-09-hgh-testing_x.htm

IMO the crucial part:
Yes, there is a blood test for HGH. But because antibodies necessary for the process are in such short supply, virtually no HGH testing is conducted. In addition, the test only detects HGH right after injection so it's impractical for in-competition testing. As a result, there never has been an HGH positive.
There have been just a couple hundred HGH tests, according to experts such as Christiane Ayotte, head of the Montreal Olympic-testing lab, and Gary Wadler, a physician and author who has advised the World Anti-Doping Agency.
"We know growth hormone is a problem," Ayotte said. "No sport is testing currently for HGH, because (the test) is not available. If the test kit was available, it would only be effective for out-of-competition testing."
Ayotte said MLB is taking a bad rap for its lack of HGH testing: "We can't accuse them for not testing for growth hormone when nobody is."

:o:

Mark my words, MLBPA is going to fight to the death using this as it's rationale: No test can prove usage, so absent extensive supporting evidence (ala Grimsley), no one can be suspended for HGH.

Lip Man 1
06-09-2006, 03:22 PM
Greg Couch has a column in the Sun-Times today (Friday) where he quotes (I assume it's a doctor) an individual as saying there is NO reliable test for HGH.

Beckett can you clear this up please?

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
06-09-2006, 04:57 PM
I think this is a good time to remind everyone that it was less than 16 months ago that Tony LaRussa was on 60 Minutes calling Jose Canseco a liar and defending Mark McGwire's reputation.

And we should also remember the congressional hearings on this matter were held in March, 2005. There were SEVERAL posters here claiming this was a sideshow simply to sell more books, and nobody would give a damned about any of it once opening day arrived.

And there are still posters who think MLB and the MLBPA can successfully sweep this scandal under the rug. Well, they might be wrong again, but at least they're consistent.
:wink:

This isn't over. This isn't even close to being over. If anything, it's building up a head of steam. More players (and owners) than ever are sweating bullets now.

What a lovely little mess baseball has made for itself...
:cool:

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 05:04 PM
God I hope this doesn't turn out to be another set of accusations that can't be proven. I'd hate to see the Salem witch trials come to MLB, even it does end with the hanging of Bud Selig, because all that would do is put every player - even those not named - into the giant circle of speculation, and the fans will be the ones who suffer.

samram
06-09-2006, 05:19 PM
God I hope this doesn't turn out to be another set of accusations that can't be proven. I'd hate to see the Salem witch trials come to MLB, even it does end with the hanging of Bud Selig, because all that would do is put every player - even those not named - into the giant circle of speculation, and the fans will be the ones who suffer.

Well, the witch hunt was self-induced with the George Mitchell "investigation"/dog-and-pony show. The only thing we've heard from that is he wants to talk to Barry and I'm sure Barry is getting a good laugh from it.

Daver
06-09-2006, 05:21 PM
I think this is a good time to remind everyone that it was less than 16 months ago that Tony LaRussa was on 60 Minutes calling Jose Canseco a liar and defending Mark McGwire's reputation.

And we should also remember the congressional hearings on this matter were held in March, 2005. There were SEVERAL posters here claiming this was a sideshow simply to sell more books, and nobody would give a damned about any of it once opening day arrived.

And there are still posters who think MLB and the MLBPA can successfully sweep this scandal under the rug. Well, they might be wrong again, but at least they're consistent.
:wink:

This isn't over. This isn't even close to being over. If anything, it's building up a head of steam. More players (and owners) than ever are sweating bullets now.

What a lovely little mess baseball has made for itself...
:cool:

I would hazard a guess that federal subpeonas have already been prepared for many, and that the FBI is going to blow the head off this whole thing. They have no interest in seeing this get swept under the rug, nor do they have any interest in protecting MLB. Once that happens, there is going to be an avalanche of titan proportions, and I doubt Selig or Fehr will survive it.

Sox-o-matic
06-09-2006, 05:29 PM
I think this is a good time to remind everyone that it was less than 16 months ago that Tony LaRussa was on 60 Minutes calling Jose Canseco a liar and defending Mark McGwire's reputation.

And we should also remember the congressional hearings on this matter were held in March, 2005. There were SEVERAL posters here claiming this was a sideshow simply to sell more books, and nobody would give a damned about any of it once opening day arrived.

And there are still posters who think MLB and the MLBPA can successfully sweep this scandal under the rug. Well, they might be wrong again, but at least they're consistent.
:wink:

This isn't over. This isn't even close to being over. If anything, it's building up a head of steam. More players (and owners) than ever are sweating bullets now.

What a lovely little mess baseball has made for itself...
:cool:

There is nothing that MLB can do that will make this go away with the government now involved.

What I'm afraid of though is that we are going to see a bunch of lowlife drug dealers with no credibility whatsoever sitting on the witness stand shelling out names of current and former players. If these players are then indicted, it will not matter who is proven guilty and who is proven innocent because by then their careers will have been forever tarnished, and possibly ruined altogether, by the fans and the media.

If this happens then players who are at first assumed to be cheaters but cleared in court will cast a shadow of guilt on every player who has ever been discussed. Now all of the sudden fans think that maybe a third of baseball or more are cheaters and lose respect for the game.

An even more frightening scenario is that so many players get blamed and so few convicted of anything that the fans take the entire investigation as a sideshow, put even less credibility in all the accusations, and select Barry the Roid Bonds as a martyr of sorts who braved the storm despite being the first one to be "falsely accused."

I know I'm getting way over my head at this point, but I just don't see anything good that can come out of this other than Selig getting tossed.

beckett21
06-09-2006, 05:44 PM
Greg Couch has a column in the Sun-Times today (Friday) where he quotes (I assume it's a doctor) an individual as saying there is NO reliable test for HGH.

Beckett can you clear this up please?

Lip
It seems that it is very hard to test for accurately because it is hard to distinguish the injected hGH from the naturally occuring hormone in the body. It also needs to be tested for pretty close to the time of the injection.

This article from 2004 (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1164674.htm) goes into some decent detail about the problems with the testing process that they developed for the Olympic games.


Here's an excerpt from today's USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/2006-06-09-hgh-testing_x.htm?csp=34):



Major League Baseball doesn't test for HGH. The International Olympic Committee brags it has had an HGH test since before the 2004 Olympics, but that is semantics.
Yes, there is a blood test for HGH. But because antibodies necessary for the process are in such short supply, virtually no HGH testing is conducted. In addition, the test only detects HGH right after injection so it's impractical for in-competition testing. As a result, there never has been an HGH positive.


Sorry that I can't quote any good medical sources on this. If I am able to find any better info I'll gladly pass it along. Best I could do right now is a Google search.

Basically, from what I can glean it can theoretically be detected but the circumstances have to be just about perfect.

Edit: this is the same article posted by Flight #24. Guess I wasn't paying attention. :redneck

HotelWhiteSox
06-09-2006, 06:10 PM
Interesting, the Feds don't want people to cooperate with MLB's "investigation". http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=2059493&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Trav
06-09-2006, 06:19 PM
Interesting, the Feds don't want people to cooperate with MLB's "investigation". http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=2059493&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

How does that grab ya, Bud?

Frontman
06-09-2006, 06:26 PM
You know the part of this that I hate? That Grimsley, like Conseco, will make a lot of money off of being a cheater now that he can write a book about it. It really bugs me that we buy into that crap all the time. Grimsley cheated, named names after being caught, then will be on PTI/Around the Horn/Today Show in a few short years selling a book for 29.99.

:angry:

voodoochile
06-09-2006, 06:31 PM
I am starting to feel like the husband who just walked in on his wife in bed with another man. Watching as they calmly get up and get dressed and then without so much as a backward glance the man strolls out of the house while the wife makes herself a cup of tea and starts to read a book.

"Who was that man?" I scream.

"What man, dear?" comes the reply.

"That man that I just caught you in bed with!" I start to hyperventilate.

"Are you feeling okay, honey?" She gives me her concerned look and gets up to feel my forehead.

Pushing he arm away, I demand, "I want an explanation now!"

She raises one eyebrow and squints at me. "You really need to do something about your delusions. It's getting old. The constant accusations. The pestering, the jealousy. YOU will ruin this marriage!" She turns on her heels and stomps out of the room leaving me confused and bewildered and wondering what if anything I saw at all...

Trav
06-09-2006, 06:36 PM
I am starting to feel like the husband who just walked in on his wife in bed with another man. Watching as they calmly get up and get dressed and then without so much as a backward glance the man strolls out of the house while the wife makes herself a cup of tea and starts to read a book.

"Who was that man?" I scream.

"What man, dear?" comes the reply.

"That man that I just caught you in bed with!" I start to hyperventilate.

"Are you feeling okay, honey?" She gives me her concerned look and gets up to feel my forehead.

Pushing he arm away, I demand, "I want an explanation now!"

She raises one eyebrow and squints at me. "You really need to do something about your delusions. It's getting old. The constant accusations. The pestering, the jealousy. YOU will ruin this marriage!" She turns on her heels and stomps out of the room leaving me confused and bewildered and wondering what if anything I saw at all...

Well that hits a little close to home...

SoxFanPrope
06-09-2006, 08:53 PM
Balco investigation had levelled off and was almost over, so this is a major breakthrough I think this actually shows how committed the Feds are to persuing this. One thing goes bad, they always have a back-up plan. My guess is that (I'm sure others may have already said this) Grimsley has been talking for about a year now.
This forces Selig and the player's union to do something about HGH, showdown coming over blood testing I would not hold your breath. Remember, baseball apparently thinks they are above the law in the United States. Steroids is illegal in the US, but not in baseball - so it is not cheating. Murder is illegal in the US, but using the logic applied to sterioids, Alex Cintron is perfectly within the rules of the MLB to murder Casey Blake tonight.
Some Bulgarian body builder allegedly brings the HGH in from Mexico. He's been working with the agent from the Balco investigation for two years now and likely gave up Grimsley ****ing Commies. I've long been suspicious of the Bulgarians. This is just another example of why.
Munson believes the authors of 'Game of Shadows' are "totally connected" to the guy running the investigation and believes they'll
know the names of the player's soon. His timetable was 3-4 weeks. Is this because they have been working along side with the guys running the investigation, or is it because these guys seem to be trustful now?
HGH is less dangerous, but not quite as effective as anabolic steroids. Also is undetectable through urine tests and the side effects tend to disappear once a player goes off of them Great so they can hit 50 HR's, and not have their balls shrink?? Damn't
Munson was asked if these new allegations against average players using steroids could help Barry Bonds (the theory being
that if everyone was on steroids then Bonds' skill distinguishes him.) He said, "It could in a perverse way make his situation a little
better. Anytime the spotlight goes off him and on to somebody else, he's gonna be a little bit happier." Barry Bonds was also better than everybody else when NOBODY was taking steroids.

nasox
06-10-2006, 12:01 AM
I know I'm getting way over my head at this point, but I just don't see anything good that can come out of this other than Selig getting tossed.

So you don't see how getting the names of many high profile, famous steroid users (see, I didn't call them cheaters there) will benefit baseball? Yes, Selig may get tossed. In fact, I would bet that he get tossed. Fehr could possibly be a victim of a union coup, fired by those who realize standing by him will be viewed by the media and the public will make the players look like they support steroid use.

The players are not that dumb (or at least their legal teams and media teams aren't that dumb). They know that if they support steroid use they will be crucified. That much is common sense.

So the owners can Selig's ass, and Fehr gets shown the door. Now what?

Baseball is faced with a PR crisis, the possible abandonment by tons of fans, diehard and casual. This loss of fans, shown through ticket sales, TV ratings, and merchandise sales, among other examples will return baseball to its post 94 levels: hurt, and in need of saving. Ironically, the level of fans brought back to baseball in 98 is the same amount of the fans lost after this steroid scandal comes down hard IF BASEBALL IS LUCKY.

We are talking catastrophic in the scope of what will happen to baseball. And if Pujols is caught, then all hell will break loose.

And I couldn't be happier. If this never happened to baseball, then the house would never be cleaned. There still would be skeletons in the closets, and baseball would go like life in the 50s did. Everything seemed all hunky dory, but upon closer inspection, nothing was right. And then the 60s exploded.

But history lesson aside, the "good" that will come out of this, is that baseball will be forced to start from the beginning, and in ten years, will be back to at least a shade of what it was like during the Golden Years.

Baseball can't run or hide anymore. The Reaper is calling, and baseball has to accept the charges.

slavko
06-10-2006, 12:29 AM
http://sctv.org/characters/edgrimley/edgrimley.gif (http://sctv.org/characters/edgrimley/edgrimley.gif)Steroids?

Lip Man 1
06-10-2006, 09:39 PM
With no reliable test for HGH and basically it coming down to one person's word versus another (unless they have something on tape...) I don't see how the government or MLB can do anything even if they wanted to.

Right or wrong you have to have hard evidence. Perhaps that explains why the federal government continues to investigate after what two years now? and why if the stories are true they wanted to 'wire' Grimsley.

I would assume if they have the evidence needed to convict they would have been in court a long time ago with indictments don't you think?

On another topic related to this, Brady Slater the sports editor of the Idaho State Journal and I were discussing this today. He brought up an interesting point.

He asked that if congress and the government are getting so involved in MLB why aren't they showing as much dilligence to the NFL which Brady feels probably has a higher involvement in steroids and HGH given the nature of the sport.

Lo and behold what do I find this evening on ESPN.com:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2478299

Lip

Ol' No. 2
06-10-2006, 10:52 PM
With no reliable test for HGH and basically it coming down to one person's word versus another (unless they have something on tape...) I don't see how the government or MLB can do anything even if they wanted to.

Right or wrong you have to have hard evidence. Perhaps that explains why the federal government continues to investigate after what two years now? and why if the stories are true they wanted to 'wrie' Grimsley.

I would assume if they have the evidence needed to convict they would have been in court a long time ago with indictments don't you think?

On another topic related to this, Brady Slater the sports editor of the Idaho State Journal and I were discussing this today. He brought up an interesting point.

He asked that if congress and the government are getting so involved in MLB why aren't they showing as much dilligence to the NFL which Brady feels probably has a higher involvement in steroids and HGH given the nature of the sport.

Lo and behold what do I find this evening on ESPN.com:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2478299

LipAs long as Grimsley was cooperating, they have no reason to go to court. That's a standard MO. They allow you to plea down to a lesser charge after you're done singing.

getonbckthr
06-10-2006, 11:21 PM
This whole thing is a witch hunt and to get Barry Bonds. People are acting like Bonds is in charge of the cocaine trade or slavery.

samram
06-10-2006, 11:25 PM
This whole thing is a witch hunt and to get Barry Bonds. People are acting like Bonds is in charge of the cocaine trade or slavery.

:rolleyes:

This isn't Barry's case.

Frontman
06-11-2006, 12:11 AM
This whole thing is a witch hunt and to get Barry Bonds. People are acting like Bonds is in charge of the cocaine trade or slavery.

No, it isn't. The whole thing is to clean up baseball. Palmero, out. McQuire, out. Sosa, out. Giambi.....well. Bonds just happens to be the most obvious example of what steroids can do not only to the body, but to the game as a whole. And if Bonds would just go away quietly like McQuire and Sosa, they wouldn't be going after him so hard. But the moron keeps thumbing his nose at not only the fans and the game of baseball, BUT AT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!! Those Feds tend to be a bit touchy when it comes to having someone act like Bonds has for the past few years. Go ask Sadam Hussein or Al Zarkowi how the US government looks the other way when you piss them off. They tend to go after someone tooth and nail. Bonds keeps on taunting the Feds, the Feds will keep after him. They might only get him on tax evasion, but hey, tax evasion is what took down Capone.

"Barry Bonds never broke baseball rules on steroids I've never failed a drug test." His words. Granted, the rules on steroids were so weak you could breathe on them and they'd fall apart, and the simple fact of the matter is that now, after sitting out a full year, those drugs are now out of his system.

I don't know which one pisses me off more, Grimsley or Bonds. Bonds for his rapant denials, or Grimsley who will make more money off of a book than he would of done as being a broken down pitcher.

Front

Ol' No. 2
06-11-2006, 12:30 AM
No, it isn't. The whole thing is to clean up baseball. Palmero, out. McQuire, out. Sosa, out. Giambi.....well. Bonds just happens to be the most obvious example of what steroids can do not only to the body, but to the game as a whole. And if Bonds would just go away quietly like McQuire and Sosa, they wouldn't be going after him so hard. But the moron keeps thumbing his nose at not only the fans and the game of baseball, BUT AT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!! Those Feds tend to be a bit touchy when it comes to having someone act like Bonds has for the past few years. Go ask Sadam Hussein or Al Zarkowi how the US government looks the other way when you piss them off. They tend to go after someone tooth and nail. Bonds keeps on taunting the Feds, the Feds will keep after him. They might only get him on tax evasion, but hey, tax evasion is what took down Capone.

"Barry Bonds never broke baseball rules on steroids I've never failed a drug test." His words. Granted, the rules on steroids were so weak you could breathe on them and they'd fall apart, and the simple fact of the matter is that now, after sitting out a full year, those drugs are now out of his system.

I don't know which one pisses me off more, Grimsley or Bonds. Bonds for his rapant denials, or Grimsley who will make more money off of a book than he would of done as being a broken down pitcher.

FrontThe rules on perjury and tax evasion are a lot more specific than baseball's rules on steroids. Barry's going down. Book it.

Frontman
06-11-2006, 12:34 AM
The rules on perjury and tax evasion are a lot more specific than baseball's rules on steroids. Barry's going down. Book it.

If only the Feds would be as cool as Andy Sipowicz, Vince Mackey, or even CSI Grissom when they take him into custody with a whitty comment....

Front

TornLabrum
06-11-2006, 12:50 AM
If only the Feds would be as cool as Andy Sipowicz, Vince Mackey, or even CSI Grissom when they take him into custody with a whitty comment....

Front

Who is Vince Mackey?

voodoochile
06-11-2006, 01:30 AM
This whole thing is a witch hunt and to get Barry Bonds. People are acting like Bonds is in charge of the cocaine trade or slavery.

No, a witch hunt is a useless attempt to track down a creature that does not exist. When none is found, they will settle for cracking down on whatever poor defenseless person is around. In fact the term originates from the Salem Witch trials in which the majority of women put to death were midwives who had a much higher survival rate for mother and child than the male doctors did - hence they must have been doing something unearthly or abnormal or witchlike.

Bonds actually did the unearthly, abnormal stuff to do what he does. He cheated. He admitted he cheated. He's been caught red handed in a lie about said cheating. In short, he truly does deserve to be strapped to a boulder and sunk in a lake (if he floats, he's a witch and we can then hang him - if not, oh well, looks like we killed another poor innocent person (yeah right)).

I'm all in favor of a fair trial followed by a right fine hanging. **** Barroid and the oversized freak of a horse he road in on... what's that... oh, sorry Barry, I guess it was all you...

Frontman
06-11-2006, 06:45 AM
Who is Vince Mackey?


He's Vic's big brother. Picked on him a lot growing up, hence Vic's "charming" nature. Vic might talk some smack, but he's got nothing on Vince.


;)


Front

TornLabrum
06-11-2006, 08:43 AM
He's Vic's big brother. Picked on him a lot growing up, hence Vic's "charming" nature. Vic might talk some smack, but he's got nothing on Vince.


;)


Front

Thanks for clarifying. I did not know that. :D:

Frontman
06-11-2006, 11:18 AM
Not a problem, I'm the master of making up as I go along to cover bad typing.

Front

HotelWhiteSox
06-12-2006, 10:53 PM
No, it isn't. The whole thing is to clean up baseball. Palmero, out. McQuire, out. Sosa, out. Giambi.....well. Bonds just happens to be the most obvious example of what steroids can do not only to the body, but to the game as a whole. And if Bonds would just go away quietly like McQuire and Sosa, they wouldn't be going after him so hard. But the moron keeps thumbing his nose at not only the fans and the game of baseball, BUT AT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!! Those Feds tend to be a bit touchy when it comes to having someone act like Bonds has for the past few years. Go ask Sadam Hussein or Al Zarkowi how the US government looks the other way when you piss them off. They tend to go after someone tooth and nail. Bonds keeps on taunting the Feds, the Feds will keep after him. They might only get him on tax evasion, but hey, tax evasion is what took down Capone.

"Barry Bonds never broke baseball rules on steroids I've never failed a drug test." His words. Granted, the rules on steroids were so weak you could breathe on them and they'd fall apart, and the simple fact of the matter is that now, after sitting out a full year, those drugs are now out of his system.

I don't know which one pisses me off more, Grimsley or Bonds. Bonds for his rapant denials, or Grimsley who will make more money off of a book than he would of done as being a broken down pitcher.

Front

I disagree, and agree more with getonbackthr. What the fans want is to clean up baseball, but the story from a couple days ago was that the Feds asked Grimsley to wear a wire to talk to Bonds and his friends to get him to incriminate himself. Grimsley refused, and they let out the story of Grimsley. In fact, I think what I read was a quote actually saying that Bonds was who they wanted (would have to look for it though). I think if it was about cleaning up the game, the names would not be blacked out (though I think we will find the names out and those names are obviously getting phone calls right now). For me, it looks like the Feds are still hooked on the Balco case and could care less about the integrity of the game.

News today, Grimsley suspended 50 games (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2481144). I don't get this though, they are not going by a test, but by statements. Why wouldn't Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, etc get the same treatment? Even if the info was leaked, there was still and admission, and there is grand jury evidence to back it up. And if the lame ass excuse of the usage being accidental or unknowingly then that is some fine preferential treatment

TornLabrum
06-12-2006, 11:00 PM
I disagree, and agree more with getonbackthr. What the fans want is to clean up baseball, but the story from a couple days ago was that the Feds asked Grimsley to wear a wire to talk to Bonds and his friends to get him to incriminate himself. Grimsley refused, and they let out the story of Grimsley. In fact, I think what I read was a quote actually saying that Bonds was who they wanted (would have to look for it though). I think if it was about cleaning up the game, the names would not be blacked out (though I think we will find the names out and those names are obviously getting phone calls right now). For me, it looks like the Feds are still hooked on the Balco case and could care less about the integrity of the game.

News today, Grimsley suspended 50 games (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2481144) (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2481144%29). I don't get this though, they are not going by a test, but by statements. Why wouldn't Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, etc get the same treatment? Even if the info was leaked, there was still and admission, and there is grand jury evidence to back it up. And if the lame ass excuse of the usage being accidental or unknowingly then that is some fine preferential treatment

You're right. The Feds couldn't care less about the integrity of the game. That is not their concern. Their concern is the sale and distribution of drugs without prescriptions. That this is happening in baseball simply gives them a group to investigate, make raids on, and lean on in order to bring down the big boys who are involved.

It is Commissioner Budlight who should be dealing with the integrity of the game. And with him in charge, you know how likely that is to happen.

Flight #24
06-13-2006, 08:42 AM
You're right. The Feds couldn't care less about the integrity of the game. That is not their concern. Their concern is the sale and distribution of drugs without prescriptions. That this is happening in baseball simply gives them a highly public group to investigate, make raids on, and lean on in order to bring down the big boys who are involved.


Fixed it for you. IMO it's all about the publicity, but in a good, maximum-deterrence-effect kind of way rather than a get-my-face-in-the-news kind of way (not that that's not also a factor).

Flight #24
06-13-2006, 08:45 AM
News today, Grimsley suspended 50 games (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2481144). I don't get this though, they are not going by a test, but by statements. Why wouldn't Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, etc get the same treatment? Even if the info was leaked, there was still and admission, and there is grand jury evidence to back it up. And if the lame ass excuse of the usage being accidental or unknowingly then that is some fine preferential treatment

This is a great point. The question is: Has the grand jury testimony officially been leaked? I mean do we have transcripts or just articles that say "sheffield admitted using steroids unknowingly"? If the former, than the double-standard is loud & clear. If the latter, then the level of evidence is different between a confession and hearsay.

It'll also be very interesting to see what the MLBPA does. So far they haven't said anything regarding the suspension except that it only impacts him if he decides to play again. But as a precedent, it's a pretty big one and I'd think one they'd like to fight. They may not because of the PR impact, in which case Bud's won a big battle in terms of his ability to suspend guys without a positive test.

daveeym
06-13-2006, 10:42 AM
This is a great point. The question is: Has the grand jury testimony officially been leaked? I mean do we have transcripts or just articles that say "sheffield admitted using steroids unknowingly"? If the former, than the double-standard is loud & clear. If the latter, then the level of evidence is different between a confession and hearsay.

It'll also be very interesting to see what the MLBPA does. So far they haven't said anything regarding the suspension except that it only impacts him if he decides to play again. But as a precedent, it's a pretty big one and I'd think one they'd like to fight. They may not because of the PR impact, in which case Bud's won a big battle in terms of his ability to suspend guys without a positive test. The first three admitted to using before the new agreement was made. That's why they didn't get tagged for 50 games. Grimsley isn't just dealing with leaked info but also has been crimanally caught with the drugs and admitted to using since the new policy has been initiated. I'm sure the drug testing policy could give you more specifics but the main reason is the timing.

GOGOGOPODS
06-13-2006, 03:24 PM
How long do you think this is going to go on for? I hate hearing players getting suspended for using steroids. It stains the game, it really does. I wish steroids would just go away.... some wishes just never come true though.

Blob
06-13-2006, 03:50 PM
Thanks for clarifying. I did not know that. :D:

Have I been watching the wrong show all these years? :smile: