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White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 11:37 AM
Does anyone realize that our entire bullpen makes less money than any one of our starting pitchers make individually ?

I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.

How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ? We probably need 2 upgrades in our bullpen - and they are going to be costly now.

Dan Mega
06-05-2006, 11:39 AM
Many players, including bullpen players, have better numbers when moving from the AL to the NL.

peeonwrigley
06-05-2006, 11:42 AM
How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ?

Viz + El Duque still don't look as good as Vazquez.

cbotnyse
06-05-2006, 11:43 AM
Does anyone realize that our entire bullpen makes less money than any one of our starting pitchers make individually ?

I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.

How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ? We probably need 2 upgrades in our bullpen - and they are going to be costly now.

thats a good point, but its hard to argue our starting pitching doesnt deserve what they got, based on last years' performance.....but it is biting us in the butt this year.

last year it was...bullpen? who needs a bullpen?

White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 11:52 AM
Viz + El Duque still don't look as good as Vazquez.

I'm not questioning the trade. I'm talking about the quality of our current relievers. Right now, Viz might be our best after Jenks.

Flight #24
06-05-2006, 12:09 PM
Does anyone realize that our entire bullpen makes less money than any one of our starting pitchers make individually ?

I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.

How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ? We probably need 2 upgrades in our bullpen - and they are going to be costly now.

IMO that's less of an indication that we have a cheap bullpen and more that we have 5 expensive starters. IMO we're paying guys decent rates given their experience (Cotts/Jenks/McCarthy are all young). IMO KW has not cheaped out, he's gotten the best available guys for the spots he had open (so no Billy Wagner). The only guys I can think of that the Sox wanted and didn't get are Eyre and maybe the lefty brom Boston who went to NYY (IIRC).

Hawkeroo1980
06-05-2006, 12:10 PM
one factor that has been forgotten during this ongoing bullpen tirade is that our starters are not going 7+ everytime they take the bump

thats alot more innings (and alot more hits/runs) that the bullpen arms have a chance to give up

if buerhle/garland/vasquez don't have crappy starts every other time out then I don't think we are NEARLY as upset at the current state of the BP

The Wall
06-05-2006, 12:20 PM
The fact that we have 3 relievers who are under the organization's control for a few years before they can taste free agency makes our bullpen inherently cheap in terms of money.

We could overspend on washed up guys to get the same results we are getting right now as well. Why throw money when you can get some quality arms the experience?

regionsox73
06-05-2006, 12:30 PM
I still think it is too early, but lately he has not been good out of the pen (like everyone else) and he was not too impressive as a starter. In my opinion, he looks more nervous this year and seemed more poised a year ago. None of the guys exude confidence at the moment but he and Politte are at the top of the list of making me feel itchy.

White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 12:31 PM
We could overspend on washed up guys to get the same results we are getting right now as well. Why throw money when you can get some quality arms the experience?

Why ? To win baseball games. The bullpen has been nothing but a problem since the start of spring training. If we want to be a competitive team, then our bullpen is fine.

If we want to beat the Yanks, Red Sox or others in the post season, it won't happen with this pen.

Once again, we need 2 more excellent quality veteran relief pitchers added to have a dominant bullpen worthy of the rest of the team - and those guys make money.

bennyw41
06-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Does anyone have any ideas of players that are realistically available?

Lip Man 1
06-05-2006, 12:55 PM
I don't think money was a factor in the bullpen situation. I mean the Sox are spending nearly 100 million on salaries, it just doesn't make sense to think that they are suddenly going 'on the cheap,' in a crucial area of a team.

Plus what would it have cost... five or six million more? That's nothing when you've spent 100 million already.

I personally think this was an error in judgement by Kenny.

He knew that he had already traded two relief guys and he knew that Hermanson was 'iffy.' Why he couldn't find suitable replacements I don't know...I'm sure he probably tried. (Like when he offered the deal to Mike Myers but the Yankees trumped it.)

Perhaps he thought there were suitable 'in-house' replacements. So far that has proven to be wrong.

I understand where White Sox Randy is coming from. I just think it wasn't because of money.

The only other time I started hearing anything about Kenny starting to rethink his approach was in spring training after Hermanson hurt his back versus Los Angeles and you started to read stories mentioning Juan Cruz and Oscar Villareal.

Basically he gambled and so far has lost.

The good news is that this problem can be corrected.

The bad news is that it'll come at a much higher price then if it was corrected in January and it has already cost the Sox six blown games that turned into losses directly by the bullpen.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-05-2006, 12:57 PM
Benny:

I think it's to early to tell but a good guess would be to see which teams are already out of it.

The bad news is that it's only early June. it'll probably be at least another three to four weeks before teams even start considering trades so we could be stuck with this for awhile.

Lip

Mickster
06-05-2006, 01:31 PM
I don't think money was a factor in the bullpen situation. I mean the Sox are spending nearly 100 million on salaries, it just doesn't make sense to think that they are suddenly going 'on the cheap,' in a crucial area of a team.

Plus what would it have cost... five or six million more? That's nothing when you've spent 100 million already.

I personally think this was an error in judgement by Kenny.

He knew that he had already traded two relief guys and he knew that Hermanson was 'iffy.' Why he couldn't find suitable replacements I don't know...I'm sure he probably tried. (Like when he offered the deal to Mike Myers but the Yankees trumped it.)

Perhaps he thought there were suitable 'in-house' replacements. So far that has proven to be wrong.

I understand where White Sox Randy is coming from. I just think it wasn't because of money.

The only other time I started hearing anything about Kenny starting to rethink his approach was in spring training after Hermanson hurt his back versus Los Angeles and you started to read stories mentioning Juan Cruz and Oscar Villareal.

Basically he gambled and so far has lost.

The good news is that this problem can be corrected.

The bad news is that it'll come at a much higher price then if it was corrected in January and it has already cost the Sox six blown games that turned into losses directly by the bullpen.

Lip

Good assessment, Lip.

JohnBasedowYoda
06-05-2006, 01:35 PM
one factor that has been forgotten during this ongoing bullpen tirade is that our starters are not going 7+ everytime they take the bump

thats alot more innings (and alot more hits/runs) that the bullpen arms have a chance to give up

if buerhle/garland/vasquez don't have crappy starts every other time out then I don't think we are NEARLY as upset at the current state of the BP

That's a good point. If the starters man up then the bullpen will follow. There's too much pressure on them right nopw.

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 01:36 PM
Does anyone realize that our entire bullpen makes less money than any one of our starting pitchers make individually ?

I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.

How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ? We probably need 2 upgrades in our bullpen - and they are going to be costly now.Funny. I don't recall your complaining about Politte BEFORE the season.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/www.cornwallchurch.com/.../hindsight2020.gif

Jjav829
06-05-2006, 01:39 PM
I still think it is too early, but lately he has not been good out of the pen (like everyone else) and he was not too impressive as a starter. In my opinion, he looks more nervous this year and seemed more poised a year ago. None of the guys exude confidence at the moment but he and Politte are at the top of the list of making me feel itchy.

No, and this is exactly why I said in the other thread that McCarthy can't be traded. Having a starting rotation that makes approximately $45 million (I don't feel like doing the math) makes it hard to build a complete team. We have the second most expensive starting rotation in baseball. Only the Yankees rotation costs more. It's fine to have a $50 million starting rotation when your payroll is $200 million. But when your payroll is $100 million, it's a lot harder to deal with that expensive rotation. KW knows this and it is why he has said again and again that McCarthy will have a rotation spot in 07. He knows he needs to go cheap on one starter in order to have the money to build the rest of the team.

White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 01:44 PM
Funny. I don't recall your complaining about Politte BEFORE the season.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/www.cornwallchurch.com/.../hindsight2020.gif

I didn't mention Politte specifically then or now. But, if you want, you can easily check and see that I have been asking for veteran bullpen help on this site since February.

Would that make you feel better ? Does the state of our bullpen change depending on WHEN I asked for it ?

White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 01:46 PM
No, and this is exactly why I said in the other thread that McCarthy can't be traded. Having a starting rotation that makes approximately $45 million (I don't feel like doing the math) makes it hard to build a complete team. We have the second most expensive starting rotation in baseball. Only the Yankees rotation costs more. It's fine to have a $50 million starting rotation when your payroll is $200 million. But when your payroll is $100 million, it's a lot harder to deal with that expensive rotation. KW knows this and it is why he has said again and again that McCarthy will have a rotation spot in 07. He knows he needs to go cheap on one starter in order to have the money to build the rest of the team.

AGREED. I just don't understand why he decided not to go after one veteran guy for the pen before the season. We've already invested so much. It seems silly not to go for a little more - 3-4 mil. to try to solidify the pen.

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 01:47 PM
AGREED. I just don't understand why he decided not to go after one veteran guy for the pen before the season. We've already invested so much. It seems silly not to go for a little more - 3-4 mil. to try to solidify the pen."one veteran guy" is just hiding behind a generality. Who?

getonbckthr
06-05-2006, 01:47 PM
Possibly available:
Latroy Hakins:whiner: ,John Halama,Scott Sheilds, Brendan Donnelly, Eddie Guardado:whiner: ,Steve Kline, Roberto Hernandez, Scott Eyre, Bob Howry, Glendon Rusch:whiner: , Dan Kolb, Joe Borowski:whiner: , Chris Reitsma,Mike Remlinger:whiner: .

Chicken Dinner
06-05-2006, 01:49 PM
AGREED. I just don't understand why he decided not to go after one veteran guy for the pen before the season. We've already invested so much. It seems silly not to go for a little more - 3-4 mil. to try to solidify the pen.

Hermanson is making 3 million a year......there's the cash.

CLR01
06-05-2006, 01:49 PM
I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.



and thats about all they have going for them.

Jjav829
06-05-2006, 01:50 PM
Does anyone have any ideas of players that are realistically available?

At this point, there aren't many quality relievers available. Most teams still believe they can contend and the ones that know they can't contend don't have quality relievers. The only way you would find a team trading a quality reliever right now is if they believe that what they are getting in return can help them win this year.

For instance, take the Padres. Their bullpen has been great. Hoffman, Linebrink, Cassidy and Sweeney are all pitching well. However, their offense has struggled, particularly at 3B. Say for instance (and I'm not advocating this trade at all, merely using it as an example) the Sox offered Crede for Linebrink, thinking that Fields could take over at 3B. There could be others involved, but those guys would be the principles of the trade. That's the type of trade that could probably happen now.

Once again for the dense. I'm not advocating the Sox trade my favorite player, merely using it as an example. Now if the Padres liked Fields enough to start him right away and would accept that deal, I would definitely be in favor of using Fields to get Linebrink. :smile:

MERPER
06-05-2006, 01:51 PM
Many players, including bullpen players, have better numbers when moving from the AL to the NL.

I've noticed the same thing with many players in general in the past few years... the AL has become more dominant every year for the last 5 or so... Peter Gammons even referred to the NL as the D1-AA earlier this year....

Frater Perdurabo
06-05-2006, 01:51 PM
No, and this is exactly why I said in the other thread that McCarthy can't be traded. Having a starting rotation that makes approximately $45 million (I don't feel like doing the math) makes it hard to build a complete team. We have the second most expensive starting rotation in baseball. Only the Yankees rotation costs more. It's fine to have a $50 million starting rotation when your payroll is $200 million. But when your payroll is $100 million, it's a lot harder to deal with that expensive rotation. KW knows this and it is why he has said again and again that McCarthy will have a rotation spot in 07. He knows he needs to go cheap on one starter in order to have the money to build the rest of the team.

I completely agree with your assessment.

McCarthy should not be traded unless doing so gets the Sox a MAJOR upgrade somewhere else, like Carl Crawford. I'm not sure there are two quality middle relievers on any team that would be worth giving up a future inexpensive starting rotation mainstay like McCarthy

getonbckthr
06-05-2006, 01:53 PM
Could this weeks draft have any influence on how willing Kenny will be to deal some prospects? Meaning like if we get lucky and few prospects fall for some reason would Kenny be more willing to risk some top prospects?

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 01:54 PM
At this point, there aren't many quality relievers available. Most teams still believe they can contend and the ones that know they can't contend don't have quality relievers. The only way you would find a team trading a quality reliever right now is if they believe that what they are getting in return can help them win this year.

For instance, take the Padres. Their bullpen has been great. Hoffman, Linebrink, Cassidy and Sweeney are all pitching well. However, their offense has struggled, particularly at 3B. Say for instance (and I'm not advocating this trade at all, merely using it as an example) the Sox offered Crede for Linebrink, thinking that Fields could take over at 3B. There could be others involved, but those guys would be the principles of the trade. That's the type of trade that could probably happen now.

Once again for the dense. I'm not advocating the Sox trade my favorite player, merely using it as an example. Now if the Padres liked Fields enough to start him right away and would accept that deal, I would definitely be in favor of using Fields to get Linebrink. :smile:But that's just it. As you well know, teams that still think of themselves as contenders are not going to accept prospects in return. And on June 5, nearly everyone thinks of themselves as contenders. The few that are already out of it this early are out of it for a reason - they have a roster full of replacement-level players that you wouldn't want.

The only trades that happen this early are of the Hairston-Nevin type. It's almost impossible to get quality.

Blob
06-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Does anyone truly believe KW is not trying to find help? :?:

Jjav829
06-05-2006, 02:07 PM
Does anyone truly believe KW is not trying to find help? :?:

No, I don't think anyone would ever doubt KW's efforts. We know he tries hard, but as has been said several times in this thread, it's very unlikely that KW will find any significant help available at this time. Right now is when most GMs are just starting to get the ball rolling on trade talks. It's going to be a few weeks before significant moves are made.

Chez
06-05-2006, 02:17 PM
I've got a feeling we're going to see Roberto Hernandez back in a Sox uniform by the Fourth of July.

JB98
06-05-2006, 02:18 PM
Does anyone truly believe KW is not trying to find help? :?:

I'm sure he's trying, but it takes two to tango. I think the Sox thought Hermanson's offseason conditioning program would alleviate his back problems. They thought he would be healthy and contributing to the team, but that was a miscalculation that we are paying for at this time.

Politte is the one guy who could cover up for that miscalculaton, but as we all know, Cliff just isn't getting it done. I know Politte pitched over his head last year, and I figured he would come back to the mean this season. But anyone who tells you they anticipated an implosion like this is lying.

No Hermy + bad Politte + inexperienced McCarthy = major hole for right-handed middle relief.

getonbckthr
06-05-2006, 02:20 PM
With Gagne back or soon to be back what about Danys Baez?

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 02:28 PM
With Gagne back or soon to be back what about Danys Baez?A 3.81 ERA pitching in Chavez Ravine isn't too inspiring. About the best you can say for him is that he's better than Politte right now.

mcfish
06-05-2006, 02:32 PM
What about trading Alex Cintron for Jeff Bajenaru?

Frater Perdurabo
06-05-2006, 02:36 PM
No, I don't think anyone would ever doubt KW's efforts. We know he tries hard, but as has been said several times in this thread, it's very unlikely that KW will find any significant help available at this time. Right now is when most GMs are just starting to get the ball rolling on trade talks. It's going to be a few weeks before significant moves are made.

I think Kenny is burning up the phone lines while eating late-night delivery Chinese food and pounding antacids.

His conversations go something like this:

KW: Hey, Jim (Hendry)! What's up?

Hendry: Not much. I've got Dave Littlefield (Pirates GM) on the other line. They're about to give me Jason Bay, $10 million and three prospects for Bob Howry. Can I call you back?

KW: Actually, I wanted to talk to you about Howry. What would it take for me to get in on the action?

Hendry: Well, our fans would never forgive us for helping you guys out, and as you know, our "House Organ" just reported that we have lots of reasons for hope, so I don't want to send the wrong message to them, what with the falling concrete and all. But since we're friends, we'll call the cash even and I'll just take McCarthy and two prospects, say, Ray Liotta and Josh Fields. If you say yes, I won't click back to my Pittsburgh connection....

KW: Ummmm, I'll have to call you back. I've got, uh, a call on the, uh, other line myself.

<hangs up phone in disgust, then calls Littlefield himself>

KW: Hey, Dave! What's doin'?

Littlefield: Oh, not much. Just looking for ways to chop salary to get us a bigger share of the revenue sharing pool.

KW: Yeah, funny you mention that. I was hoping you could tell me how I can help you dump some salary, perhaps the rest of the $2.75 million you're paying Roberto Hernandez? We aren't that interested in him as a player, but you know he's an ex-Sox legend who might want a chance to play for a World Series with the team that gave him his first shot at the bigs.

Littlefield: Hmmm. Well, I can't promise too much, especially since I have to give Hendry all the best deals, what with those fake, photoshopped photos he's got of me, but since you're not that interested, I suppose I could give him to you for a song - say Ryan Sweeney, Charlie Haeger and Brandon McCarthy. I mean, it's not like you have a place for McCarthy in your big-market rotation, and he's been struggling in the pen himself. His value is not that high, after all.

KW: <throws the phone, then overturns a buffet table>

White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 02:58 PM
that's funny - I like it

Blob
06-05-2006, 05:04 PM
No, I don't think anyone would ever doubt KW's efforts. We know he tries hard, but as has been said several times in this thread, it's very unlikely that KW will find any significant help available at this time. Right now is when most GMs are just starting to get the ball rolling on trade talks. It's going to be a few weeks before significant moves are made.

I meant that as part of my statement as well. I believe there is nothing worth while out there currently.

Just some people act like it's a fantasy baseball league and we can trade whoever we want whenever we want.

It's just not that easy.

soxinem1
06-05-2006, 06:05 PM
I don't think money was a factor in the bullpen situation. I mean the Sox are spending nearly 100 million on salaries, it just doesn't make sense to think that they are suddenly going 'on the cheap,' in a crucial area of a team.

Plus what would it have cost... five or six million more? That's nothing when you've spent 100 million already.

I personally think this was an error in judgement by Kenny.

He knew that he had already traded two relief guys and he knew that Hermanson was 'iffy.' Why he couldn't find suitable replacements I don't know...I'm sure he probably tried. (Like when he offered the deal to Mike Myers but the Yankees trumped it.)

Perhaps he thought there were suitable 'in-house' replacements. So far that has proven to be wrong.

I understand where White Sox Randy is coming from. I just think it wasn't because of money.

The only other time I started hearing anything about Kenny starting to rethink his approach was in spring training after Hermanson hurt his back versus Los Angeles and you started to read stories mentioning Juan Cruz and Oscar Villareal.

Basically he gambled and so far has lost.

The good news is that this problem can be corrected.

The bad news is that it'll come at a much higher price then if it was corrected in January and it has already cost the Sox six blown games that turned into losses directly by the bullpen.

Lip


This situation reminds me of the 1984 White Sox, who also had five solid starters (remember Britt Burns volunterring to pitch out of the pen for a few months?) but had a weak pen. The only additions they made were 41 year old Ron Reed and adding over-the-hill Dan Spillner midway through the season. Night after night the pen threw gas on the fire until the starters themselves began to collapse, which was often in the second half.

My big concern is the domino effect this motley crew can cause. Yesterday, Ozzie stuck with an obviously ineffective Buerhle and was hesitant to go to the pen, even after they were already down by four late in the game. What does that tell you?

The Sox need a guy that can make a difference, not some retread or washout reclamation project.

Roberto Hernandez and a few guys of his ilk should be monitored, as they would be the logical targets.

But we should thank our lucky stars the Tigers decided to slow down as we hit this skid, as we could easilly be 6-7 out by now.

santo=dorf
06-05-2006, 06:15 PM
Does anyone realize that our entire bullpen makes less money than any one of our starting pitchers make individually ?

I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.

How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ? We probably need 2 upgrades in our bullpen - and they are going to be costly now.
Jeez Randy. Give it a rest.

How many other teams in the league need bullpen help? Williamson is on the DL and was signed before the 2005 season. Dempster was in the same situation as Williamson except he was signed before 2004 coming off of TJS.

Howry wouldn't have come here, and supposedly all 30 teams contacted Eyre's agent. Eyre later went on record saying he and his agent set a price, and Jim Hungry actually made a larger offer than what they were looking for, so he sign immediately.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but at the time I wasn't too thrilled for losing Vizcaino and always defended him from the ones who bashed him ever since Shingo's meltdown.

Bullpen arms are always the riskiest signings because they are usually inconsistent and can't go anywhere when they struggle (a struggling starter can go to the bullpen for help.)

The only other good relievers signings this past offseason have been Mike Myers (LOOGY, was offered a contract from the Sox but wanted to play in the mystique of the Yankees,) BJ Ryan (huge money. We didn't need a closer,) Tom Gordon (Old, 3 year deal, big money. We didn't need a closer,) and Billy Wagner (he's been a little shaky.)

Lip Man 1
06-05-2006, 06:47 PM
Actually Dorf I think the reason Myers turned down the Sox (and you know he's from the Chicago area) is because the Yanks offered a year longer on the deal.

Lip

santo=dorf
06-05-2006, 07:02 PM
Probably a little of both.
The Sox barely fell short in their bid to land left-handed specialist Mike Myers, who agreed Thursday to a two-year offer from the Yankees.

"It came down to the Sox and Yankees," Myers said. "I was impressed that the defending World Series champions considered me, but I think this move will be good for me and my family and my career."

That was from the Trib.


"I'm jacked up for it," Myers said of pitching in the Bronx. "It's going to be a lot of fun. The Yankees are a team I have wanted to play with for quite a while. I'm glad the deal was able to come to fruition."


Myers said that while he wasn't surprised at Boston's decision, he found it odd that the Sox never made him a formal offer. For Myers, getting a two-year deal was important. "The way the market was set up, combined with the year that I had and what I've done," Myers said, "I thought that there was a multi-year deal out there that I had earned."


mlb.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051208&content_id=1279442&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp)

oeo
06-05-2006, 07:31 PM
Does anyone realize that our entire bullpen makes less money than any one of our starting pitchers make individually ?

I love KW but this is where he got caught not spending any money. People laughed at the cubs for throwing a few bucks at Eyre, Howry, Dempster and Williamson but they have a pretty solid bullpen.

How good does Luis Vizcaino look now ? We probably need 2 upgrades in our bullpen - and they are going to be costly now.
Well, going into the season, it didn't look bad. All we thought we needed was a left-handed reliever.

But...
Cliff- not playing to his expectations that he set last year.
Neal- underachieving IMO.
Thornton- he's that extra lefty we needed, and IMO has done alright. Could be better at times, but he's come in some key situations and got guys out. I think he's only going to improve. Not only that, he's better than Marte.
McCarthy- stud starter, not so stud reliever, as of late. But remember, he started out the season well...hopefully he's just in a slump.

And if we got Hermanson back, we had one of the best bullpens in the league. Things just haven't worked out.

rowand33
06-05-2006, 07:48 PM
I would take Roberto Hernandez back in a heartbeat. 2.58 ERA last year, 2.13 so far this year. Solid.

And then imagine if we have him and Politte returns to form (or even becomes servicable)?

Tragg
06-05-2006, 08:07 PM
It was good fortune that we got near flawless production from Cliff and Dustin last year. Middle relievers generally aren't that good. You can spend 3 mill on a HOwry or an Eyre and you'll still be holding your breath every time they pitch. The best situation is to find an up and coming young arm who's prepping for a position in the starting rotation...ahem, McCarthy.

It's also a hard hole to plug...in July, teams what a lot for what are really journeyman ballplayers and it's senseless to trade top talent for a mesa or a howry.

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 08:32 PM
It was good fortune that we got near flawless production from Cliff and Dustin last year. Middle relievers generally aren't that good. You can spend 3 mill on a HOwry or an Eyre and you'll still be holding your breath every time they pitch. The best situation is to find an up and coming young arm who's prepping for a position in the starting rotation...ahem, McCarthy.

It's also a hard hole to plug...in July, teams what a lot for what are really journeyman ballplayers and it's senseless to trade top talent for a mesa or a howry.IMO, it would be crazy to trade good prospects for a reliever until they've tried the relievers they already have in AAA. Some of those guys have done very well.

Lip Man 1
06-05-2006, 11:50 PM
No. 2:

How do you know that for sure considering they are using high school and college umpires still?

It muddles an already subjective situation doesn't it?

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
06-06-2006, 10:10 AM
No. 2:

How do you know that for sure considering they are using high school and college umpires still?

It muddles an already subjective situation doesn't it?

Lip

True, but all the minor league players are playing in games with replacement umps. Unless someone can demonstrate to me that an overwhelming majority of the replacement minor league umps are calling a massive strike zone, the effect is a wash.

White Sox Randy
06-06-2006, 10:44 AM
Before the season started, I and some others on here, voiced our concerns that we didn't have the bullpen that we needed and that would be this team's weakness.

We were labeled "dark clouds" and told to quit worrying because we had just won the World Series.

Well, this is a different year and I, as I'm sure the White Sox do, want to win again while we have the opportunity.

The bullpen, as we predicted in Spring Training, has been the weakness of this team. I maintain that the bullpen, as it is currently constituted, will not allow us to repeat. I'm pretty sure that the White Sox feel the same and that KW will do what he can to remedy this.

But, it won't be easy. This is why it is surprising to me that this wasn't taken care of months ago. Apparently, KW thought that this could be taken care of in house. Well, it can't. There is no Bobby Jenks clone in the minors.

Don't fool yourselves into thinking that there were no other options available over the last 9 months. There are 30 teams with about 6 relievers each - that's about 180 major league relievers - we couldn't have gotten a good 1 or 2 ?

Yes, it is unfortunate that Politte has taken a step or two back, Cotts has been less consistent, Hermy isn't coming back, McCarthy not really taken to the role of reliever and Logan didn't work out. Thornton may end up being a bonus but that's not nearly enough. Also, our starting pitchers have been good but not as great as last year - not that surprising.

Clearly, something has to be done before we lose too many games. The Tigers are a very good team and Cleveland WILL get hot.

If not right now, eventually some very good relievers will become available. KW will have to bite the bullet and pay or we won't be having the same success as last year.

Continuing to look for a bargain or lightning in a bottle is getting riskier by the day.

I love the rest of our team and KW and the Sox have done great a job assembling it. I hate to see it go to waste because we can't get a solid bullpen together.

kwolf68
06-06-2006, 10:58 AM
Good grief.

This is essentially the same bullpen as last year, except sub Thorton for Marte, McCarthy for Hernandez and ____ for Viacaino.

Why our bullpen was so good last year revolves around the fact Hermie was so good early and Cotts/Pollitte were lights out.

Pollitte is as bad this year as he has been good and Cotts hasn't been quite as lights out this year either.

I'd rather have Thorton than Marte anyday of the week and I'd also rather have McCarthy (at least now) than El Dookie. If Cotts and Pollitte pick it up then this problem is solved.

KW did a fine job improving on the 2005 World Champs and right now some of our guys are just scuffling, they'll get it going. I can't believe people jump toward the ledge so quickly to judge.

The only concern I had about dealing for Vazquez was trading away Young...despite his plate discipline I thought he would become very good...However, Anderson has proven to be better defensively than I thought and if/when he turns his hitting around that trade will look even better.

We're fine...Lets get the Tiggers tonight.

Ol' No. 2
06-06-2006, 11:15 AM
True, but all the minor league players are playing in games with replacement umps. Unless someone can demonstrate to me that an overwhelming majority of the replacement minor league umps are calling a massive strike zone, the effect is a wash.Exactly. Perhaps you can't translate those ERA's directly to the majors, but then you couldn't even with regular umpires because of the difference in the quality of the hitters. But on a relative basis, everything generally evens out. The ones with the best performance, even with replacement umps, are most likely to succeed at the major league level.

Also, I thought they settled that mess. Are they still using replacement umps?

FedEx227
06-06-2006, 11:59 AM
Also, I thought they settled that mess. Are they still using replacement umps?

To the best of my knowledge they agreed on a deal just last week, Friday or Saturday, not sure if they've started working just yet though.

Paulwny
06-06-2006, 12:21 PM
To the best of my knowledge they agreed on a deal just last week, Friday or Saturday, not sure if they've started working just yet though.

Yesterday's Buffalo news reported that they are expected to return by June 12.

Lip Man 1
06-06-2006, 01:34 PM
No. 2:

I started another thread on this here at WSI after reading a long story in the print edition of The Sporting News yesterday.

Look for it to get the latest info.

220 minor league umps are still on strike, no end in site, MLB umps are starting to get involved and things are apparently getting out of hand. Sox double A Birmingham team forfeited a game recently after Chris Cron felt the umps had lost control of the game.

Lip

White Sox Randy
09-19-2006, 11:05 AM
This is still an interesting discussion. Did KW go too cheap on the bullpen ?

Did he rely too much on inexperienced relievers or did we just have bad luck with Cotts and Politte having bad years ?

Thome25
09-19-2006, 11:35 AM
This is still an interesting discussion. Did KW go too cheap on the bullpen ?

Did he rely too much on inexperienced relievers or did we just have bad luck with Cotts and Politte having bad years ?

Both.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 02:53 PM
Personally, I'd like to see 1-2 additions of veterans who could start or relieve. That's your long relief/bridge to the Thornton/MacDougal/Jenks endgame.

Some names out there in FA but who could be looking to start or be really expensive: Miguel Batista (Actually has experience at starting & relieving), Cory Lidle, Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis

Some more realistic options: Mark Redman, Justin Speier, Adam Eaton.

Then you add in a rookie like Haeger for some development and emergency purposes.