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Lip Man 1
06-02-2006, 06:14 PM
Gang:

In another thread some of the comments by TDog started me thinking. I disagree with him that there won’t be any relief guys available even if the Sox want to deal.

I limited my examination at this point to simply what teams may be willing trade partners with the Sox. That doesn’t mean they have any bullpen help the Sox would even be interested in but a factor that must be weighed is the possibility of getting a player or players then shipping them off to a third team for some of their bullpen help.

So as of June 2nd, what teams could Kenny reasonably call today and start opening up a dialogue with?

In my opinion these clubs are already completely out of the 2006 post-season:

Tampa Bay
Kansas City
Washington
Florida
Chicago
Pittsburgh

Those clubs are to far off the divison lead or more importantly, have to many clubs ahead of them to reasonably assume they are going to have a shot.

Now a point regarding the Cubs. Common sense says they are to far off the pace to win their division and there are far to many teams ahead of them in the ‘race’ for the wild card. But with the Cubs you have to factor in the business end of the equation. At least a portion of their fan base is becomming vocal about the way the Tribune Company is running the franchise, couple that with the recent news about the stock prices, and company debt and I can’t see them having a ‘fire sale’ even though they should. They simply don’t want to alienate their fan base even more at this point.

Now come July 1st, I think you’ll be able to add these names to the list:

Baltimore
Minnesota
Seattle

Baltimore and Minnesota may decide that it’s important for their franchise to go for that ‘winning’ record and may not decide to start dumping talent. At this point it’s hard to say.

Finally come July 31st, you could see even more names on the list:

Los Angeles (Angels)
Houston
Milwaukee
Colorado
San Francisco

Like with Baltimore and Minnesota, what Los Angeles, Houston, Milwaukee, Colorado and San Francisco do is predicated on how important those ownership groups think having a shot for a ‘winning’ season is.

To Colorado and Milwaukee it’s probably going to be very important. To the others, who have had successful seasons in the recent past, probably not as much.

Given these teams and these factors, if the Sox can’t find a willing trade partner they aren’t looking hard enough in my opinion.
The facts are the majority of teams listed by me are not going to have any reasonable chance to do anything. That means they are candidates for salary dumping.

Feel free to discuss.

Lip

TheDarkGundam
06-02-2006, 06:28 PM
Keep in mind that the Twins and Royals might not want to trade with us since we're in the same division, but you never know.

santo=dorf
06-02-2006, 06:50 PM
Guardado talks will probably heat up again, and if what Buster Onley is writing (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20060602&CMP=ILC-INHEAD%22)is true, I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Kerry Wood. He would have to accept that his role would be bullpen exclusive, one way to show that would be waiving his NTC of course.

From the article:
All the evaluators believe it makes sense to deal Wood before the deadline “because there’s no way you can justify picking up that option for $13.5 million for next year, based on how much he’s gotten hurt, his injury history. I respect him, but you can’t count on him. And it’s killed them to have both of those guys on their staff the last few years with so many questions. If they can get somebody to take a gamble on Wood and get something decent, it makes all the sense in the world for them to deal him.”

"I watched Wood the other night, and as a starter, I think he's a shell of what he once was," the evaluator said. "For Wood, because of his contract situation, I'd give up no more than a C-level prospect. He's declining, and he's got that big option.

ilsox7
06-02-2006, 06:51 PM
Guardado talks will probably heat up again, and if what Buster Onley is writing (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20060602&CMP=ILC-INHEAD%22)is true, I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Kerry Wood. He would have to accept that his role would be bullpen exclusive, one way to show that would be waiving his NTC of course.

From the article:

Historically, Balsa has been awful his first 25 pitches in a ballgame.

santo=dorf
06-02-2006, 07:04 PM
Historically, Balsa has been awful his first 25 pitches in a ballgame.
He was pretty good last year out of the pen before he had surgery.

The Wimperoo
06-02-2006, 07:14 PM
Just say no to Guardado. Old and bad

IlliniSox4Life
06-02-2006, 07:15 PM
Only way I take a chance on Wood is if we have to give up very very very little to get him. Like, I might do it if we can trade Borchard again.

Other than that, his injury potential is not what this bullpen needs.

SouthSide_HitMen
06-02-2006, 08:01 PM
In my opinion these clubs are already completely out of the 2006 post-season:

Tampa Bay - No help
Kansas City - No help
Washington - A few relievers with good numbers helped immensly by 1. RFK, 2. NL, 3. Crappy NL East / 4 of 5 pitchers parks. Rauch is their leading reliever as far as ERA. Cordero is not going anywhere.
Florida - No help
Chicago - A few good relievers. Would they help the Sox win a second World Series? Doubt it.
Pittsburgh - Gonzalez is not going anywhere but former White Sox Roberto Hernandez and Damaso Marte will probably be available and gives us the best option among these teams.

Now come July 1st, I think you’ll be able to add these names to the list:

Baltimore - Chris Ray is not going anywhere. They might shop Hawkins but like the Pirate options, are they even an upgrade?
Minnesota - Several good options, doubt they deal with us.
Seattle - Guardado is at the end of the line. Soriano and Putz are good but they are cheap and I doubt Seattle will part with either since they will need both down the line.

Finally come July 31st, you could see even more names on the list:

Los Angeles (Angels) - Anaheim is not looking to dump salary.
Houston - With Clemens coming back I doubt they will be sellers.
Milwaukee - They will not be sellers.
Colorado - They have several good young relievers (and Jose Mesa :redneck ) and this looks like our best option.
San Francisco - The Giants will be looking to dump payroll (Bonds, Alou, Durham, Finley) and may start the process early with Benetiz due $7.6 mil next year, $6.6 mil this year) but he has been wild and with our committed money for the starters and regulars may be beyond Kenny's budget.



My comments in red. I don't see the Sox in panic mode like some people (Jenks, Cotts and Thornton have been good, Nelson should be OK and I think Politte bounces back) giving us a better bullpen than most. Kenny will always look for an upgrade but there are not tons of guys available (at least how I see it) which is why we were able to get good players trading Marte and Vizcaino this offseason.

caulfield12
06-02-2006, 08:39 PM
Mesa is a good option, as good as any I guess.

We definitely need another righty, what with Politte´s struggles and the growing belief that McCarthy might be better off starting in AAA.

I think budget restraints also prevent us from going out to get someone like a Timlin or Howry, because these guys make too much money...and they´re not available to the Sox.

As with Jenks, our best hope until mid to late June rolls around could be the miracle emergence of someone like Eduardo Sierra....but don´t count on lightning in a bottle twice in two seasons.

santo=dorf
06-02-2006, 08:52 PM
Oddly enough, Joe Table has only been good in Colorado. He has a 6.35 ERA on the road.
Ray (Burger) King would be more ideal. The Chicago native has a 1.86 road ERA this season and a 1.24 road WHIP.

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-02-2006, 08:57 PM
I really wish we'd have gotten Mike Myers back when he was still available. Too bad the Yankees picked him up before we could get to him. He was the only player on the Red Sox I liked way back then. He's got a kickass underhand delivery as well. In 10.1 IP He's got a 0.87 ERA. I know he hasnt gotten ALOT of time, at least not enough to truly porve himself, but I still like the guy. Guess I'm dreaming again.

munchman33
06-02-2006, 09:05 PM
Anyone heard anything on Hermansen? I'd imagine if he were able to come back a move wouldn't be necessary.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2006, 09:06 PM
Reading from among these posts, I really do not see anyone who might be on the market who would be much of an upgrade over what the Sox already have.

I'm wondering if an option might exist internally; i.e., bring up a starter from the minors who has been dominant and let him "apprentice" in the pen like McCarthy. At least this might be a stopgap option until more teams fall from contention and put more pitchers are on the market.

Other than that, count me among those who would be interested in trading for a starting pitcher and either moving him to the pen, or moving the "least effective" Sox starter to the pen. Dontrelle Willis, anyone?

What about seeing if Kansas City would be willing to deal Zack Greinke? It seems he's not interested in pitching for the lowly Royals; perhaps he might be interested in pitching for the defending World Champs? Right now the Roayls are getting nothing from him; perhaps a trade would give them an opportunity to get "something" for him.

Banix12
06-02-2006, 09:50 PM
I really wish we'd have gotten Mike Myers back when he was still available. Too bad the Yankees picked him up before we could get to him. He was the only player on the Red Sox I liked way back then. He's got a kickass underhand delivery as well. In 10.1 IP He's got a 0.87 ERA. I know he hasnt gotten ALOT of time, at least not enough to truly porve himself, but I still like the guy. Guess I'm dreaming again.

The left handed side of the bullpen has actually been the strength of the sox. Even if the sox had Myers they would have the issues with the right handers.

Frater, Greinke has barely pitched this year. I think he just started baseball activities a few weeks ago. Talented for sure but not really a guy I think the sox can count on down the stretch this season. He has to unlearn everything Kansas City taught him before he can be effective again.

There is nothing on Kansas City that I would count on down the stretch. I would take a guy as a project for next year maybe.

It looks like it is going to be a weak trading season. Maybe the best shot is finding some young guy down on the farm or in someone else's AAA.

If the cubs will trade, Scott Williamson seems to be fully recovered from his injury and is having a nice little season and would be an upgrade over Nelson. I don't see much else out there besides him. If somehow KW can pry Soriano or Putz from Seattle that would be great

A. Cavatica
06-02-2006, 09:51 PM
I agree with Lip's estimation of the current trading pool, and I think there are some possibilities even among the worst of those teams.

Remember, the Sox like to take cheap gambles. They might pick up two or three guys and audition them. Think pitchers with great stuff who need better mechanics (Jenks, Thornton), pitchers with an unusual delivery or new pitch (Shingo, Logan, Loaiza), and veteran starters who are willing to go to AAA just to compete for a bullpen spot (Nomo, Redding).

Devil Rays: Chad Harville fits the great stuff/poor results mold. Doug Waechter could be acquired for long relief.

Royals: Scott Elarton might be available as a salary dump, and there are a lot of veteran starters who might benefit from a relief role and a winning team: Mays, Affeldt, Redman. I don't see us being reluctant to trade with KC.

Washington: How much would Tony Armas cost? He'd help. John Patterson or Gary Majewski are possibilities. Ramon Ortiz would be a reclamation project (though I think "Baby Pedro" is all done).

Florida: Maybe Joe Borowski or Matt Herges?

Cubs: Scott Williamson - if healthy - is the ideal Hermanson replacement.

You get the idea.

I don't foresee a major deal unless the pen collapses. With the extra starter, KW can inquire about almost anyone.

Lip Man 1
06-03-2006, 12:41 AM
Folks:

A few points.

Something that perhaps I didn't stress enough in my original comments is that while I agree teams in the division probably wouldn't trade with the Sox, there are other ways to get those players.

Case in point (tunes in the way-back machine...)

1961.

Bill Veeck and the White Sox badly wanted a hard throwing left hander who was floundering with the Milwaukee Braves by the name of Juan Pizarro. (Think Matt Thornton with actual talent!)

Al Lopez and Ray Berries both said they could work with this kid and that he'd become a good starting pitcher....only problem was the Braves flat refused to deal with the Sox.

No problem.

Veeck went to his good friend William DeWitt the Reds owner, and in so many words said, 'get Pizarro for me...'

DeWitt traded (I think) shortstop Roy McMillen to Milwaukee for Pizarro then promptly dealt him to the Sox.

Two years later, Pizarro's on the All Star Team.

There are ways and then there are ways...

Cavatica:

Well considering the bullpen has blown three games, turning wins into losses just since May 21st, and overall has been shaky at best since Logan served up that gopher ball to Haffner, it's pretty close to collapsing don't ya think?

Seriously who can they count on night after night? I can only think of Jenks right now.

Lip

Scottiehaswheels
06-03-2006, 12:43 AM
well..... just saw Seattle released Appier.... Worth a shot at AAA to see how he does?

Ditka311
06-03-2006, 01:04 AM
Only way I take a chance on Wood is if we have to give up very very very little to get him. Like, I might do it if we can trade Borchard again.

Other than that, his injury potential is not what this bullpen needs.

I hear Matt Karchner is available :o:

SouthSide_HitMen
06-03-2006, 01:28 AM
Well considering the bullpen has blown three games, turning wins into losses just since May 21st, and overall has been shaky at best since Logan served up that gopher ball to Haffner, it's pretty close to collapsing don't ya think?

I don't agree - either for the three "loses" (two of which I would pin on shoddy defense - specifically on Mackowiak who is not a centerfielder something Ozzie needs to realize) or for the comment it is close to "collapsing".

Politte has been disappointing and McCarthy may not be suited for relief work but he is what we have. Half the bullpen (Jenks, Cotts and Thornton) have been good and the jury is out on Nelson (though he will probably be stopgap).

Ozzie needs to start Anderson over the next few weeks and if he still struggles at the plate I think CF is a bigger priority at this point which will also help the staff / bullpen by providing quality defense and letting the hitters put the ball in play without worrying an out will turn into a double / triple.

And I think Anderson has a good chance of improving at the plates if he is given regular starts again.

Sox-o-matic
06-03-2006, 07:43 AM
Here's how I see all this:

1. BA NEEDS to be in CF as the everyday starter. IMO, especially with Pods in LF, CF is our most important defensive poistion outside of pitcher and catcher. We are not going to find anyone better in the field, and if we did it wouldn't make sense considering what it would cost to acquire that player. That said, BA should be hitting 9th and should not be looked at to use his power as often as he tries to. He needs to be the guy to lay down a bunt, hit a sac fly, or move a runner over by hitting to the right side of the field. We can afford a bad average and OBP in the 9 spot if he's doing his job.

2. Uribe needs to go. Sorry, but a guy like Izturis or Vizquel could play almost as well in the field and actually get the fundamentals part of the game down. Plus I'd expect a hgher batting average, especially with a move opening up a bit more playing time for Cintron. Izturis or Vizquel should come cheaply, and KW could always try to make a play at someone like Rollins or Jack Wilson by offering a big package.

3. McCarthy should be expendable. With 3 of our starters locked up and Mark and Freddy willing to be extended, Brandon should be used while we still can get something big in a deal surrounding him. He looks good one day and terrible the next. As a starter Brandon would be able to warm up longer and start each outing with no one on base. He'd also get a chance to work out of his own jams regularly and be able to get a better feel for his pitches. It serves us no good to have such a valuable trading chip in the middle of our struggling bullpen.

4. Politte should be on the trading block. He hasn't looked like he's going to get any better but after his terrific 2005 season, he could still be a part of a big deal. I think KW should take a look at moving this guy while some team may still think they can turn him around.

5. Jenks and Cotts will be fine in their roles. Thornton should do okay as a lefty specialist and Nelson should do fine as a mop up guy. With all the lefties at Charlotte just a phone call away in case of an emergency, I think KW should stay away from the leftys and go after two solid right handed relievers for the middle of the bullpen. Who that is, who knows?

kwolf68
06-03-2006, 08:57 AM
I fully expect to see our bullpen give up a homer tonight and it be blamed on Mackowiak. ok, so he didn't get a ball that was smashed 400 feet from home plate and Anderson would have. However, if you don't think this pen is blowing right now you need your head examined.

Pollitte as part of a "big deal"? What? Who wants him?

McCarthy is expendable? :o:

infohawk
06-03-2006, 09:37 AM
Thanks for the list, Lip. I'm confident that KW is exploring several different possibilities even as I write this. Whether he will be able to pull one off is another question. I do believe that if KW believed that the bullpen was the one thing to possibly keep us out of the dance, he would move even our best prospects to shore it up. Hopefully he won't need to, but he will do what he thinks is necessary to give the team the best chance to get back to the world series.

Frater Perdurabo
06-03-2006, 10:51 AM
(Think Matt Thornton with actual talent!)
Lip, what is with your shoota-esque fatal attraction to Matt Thornton? It's obvious to lots of good baseball people - most notably Don Cooper - that he does have talent, as evidenced most especially by his high 90s fastball. What he had lacked before this season was good coaching on the mental side of pitching, and the good mechanics that come with good coaching. Lack of talent is not Thornton's problem, and with just two months of Cooper's attention Thornton has been one of the better memebers of the bullpen.

I really think you don't like Thornton because he's young. Well, Jenks closed out the World Series as a rookie.

The veteran "help is on the way solution" you nominated - Jeff Nelson - has proven to be abysmal. He's washed up. He can't cut it.

As for your suggestion for Kenny to be creative to get bullpen help, KW has proven his ability to be creative. Remember when he dealt the exceedingly mediocre Rocky Biddle, Antonio Osuna and Jeff Liefer to get Bartolo Colon in a three-way deal before the 2003 season?

I agree in principle that the bullpen needs to be addressed yesterday, and agree that KW might need to be creative to get it done. I just think that another hungry youngster with a live arm like Broadway, Tracey, Liotta or Lumsden might be a better option in the short-term while the Sox wait for more teams to drop out of the race and more veterans to become available.

RowanDye
06-03-2006, 11:18 AM
Lip, what is with your shoota-esque fatal attraction to Matt Thornton? It's obvious to lots of good baseball people - most notably Don Cooper - that he does have talent, as evidenced most especially by his high 90s fastball. What he had lacked before this season was good coaching on the mental side of pitching, and the good mechanics that come with good coaching. Lack of talent is not Thornton's problem, and with just two months of Cooper's attention Thornton has been one of the better memebers of the bullpen.

I really think you don't like Thornton because he's young. Well, Jenks closed out the World Series as a rookie.

The veteran "help is on the way solution" you nominated - Jeff Nelson - has proven to be abysmal. He's washed up. He can't cut it.


Agreed...you've really been on lately Frater.

As for Zack Greinke, I don't think KC is ready to give up on him yet (link) (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/14730458.htm)
He would definitely be more of a project and in the same or worse position than McCarthy trying to go from start to reliever.

I'm still wondering about help from within from Javier Lopez. I know he is not the ideal righthand help we need, but his stats are impressive. Has he just been used as a situational guy in Charlotte?

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2006, 11:26 AM
Agreed...you've really been on lately Frater.

As for Zack Greinke, I don't think KC is ready to give up on him yet (link) (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/14730458.htm)
He would definitely be more of a project and in the same or worse position than McCarthy trying to go from start to reliever.

I'm still wondering about help from within from Javier Lopez. I know he is not the ideal righthand help we need, but his stats are impressive. Has he just been used as a situational guy in Charlotte?Anybody who can get hitters out is the ideal righthanded help we need. Or lefthanded, for that matter.

Sox-o-matic
06-03-2006, 11:31 AM
Agreed...you've really been on lately Frater.

As for Zack Greinke, I don't think KC is ready to give up on him yet (link) (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/14730458.htm)
He would definitely be more of a project and in the same or worse position than McCarthy trying to go from start to reliever.

I'm still wondering about help from within from Javier Lopez. I know he is not the ideal righthand help we need, but his stats are impressive. Has he just been used as a situational guy in Charlotte?

Greinke has a ton of upside if he's pitching for Charlotte. I want him nowhere near the MLB roster, and it doesn't make any sense IMO to give up a couple of good pieces to put Zack on the Knights.

For the bullpen, I wonder if KW could put together a package for JJ Putz and Rafael Soriano? If KW could say, pick up Crawford for McCarthy and pick up these guys for any other package of minor leaguers, I'd say we'd have a pretty nasty team.

I hope no one mentions Guardado though. That guy's arm is going to break in half at some point this season.

Sox-o-matic
06-03-2006, 12:09 PM
I fully expect to see our bullpen give up a homer tonight and it be blamed on Mackowiak. ok, so he didn't get a ball that was smashed 400 feet from home plate and Anderson would have. However, if you don't think this pen is blowing right now you need your head examined.

Pollitte as part of a "big deal"? What? Who wants him?

McCarthy is expendable? :o:

Just for a minute, pretend you are a fan of another team besides the Sox. You watch some reliever named Cliff Politte dominate your team the whole season long, so you know how good this guy can be when he's on. Then hear about his struggles to start out this season. You know he hasn't lost his velocity and you think his problems are only mental. You also know that he has a small contract and is a FA after this year anyway, so there's no harm in taking a flier on this guy. Now, if you are making a deal with the Sox centered around other players, Politte can be a valuable 'throw in' that has the potential for a big reward.

As for McCarthy, of course he's expendable. We need 5 starters and a bullpen, not 6 starters and half of a bullpen. We also need help at the bottom of the order. For more of an explanation, read the post.

Lip Man 1
06-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Frater:

Regarding Thornton.

In my opinion he has two major issues.

1. He's a former first round draft pick who in, what, three or four years, hasn't done squat. That says something, especially for a first round pick.

2. He can't consistently find the plate. Examples: 5/5/ at home versus K.C. (9th inning) and earlier this week in Cleveland. If that's 'reliable' then we have different opinions of the word.

3. Regarding Nelson. Talk to me when he gets as many chances to fail as some of the other guys in the bullpen.

I guess Kenny is going to earn his salary over the next few weeks trying to figure out how to solve this mess.

Also just FYI, saw the bullpen team stats in the Sun-Times today. They are 10th in the league in ERA (4.6) and already have eight losses. (They had 19 all last season.)

Lip

RowanDye
06-03-2006, 01:20 PM
Also just FYI, saw the bullpen team stats in the Sun-Times today. They are 10th in the league in ERA (4.6) and already have eight losses. (They had 19 all last season.)

Lip
While I definitely agree we need bullpen help, those stats don't make things look that bad. While IIRC our bullpen did finish with 2nd with a 3.23 ERA, we knew coming in to the season it likely wouldn't be that good this year. We are relying on our SP to go deep into games. When Jeff Nelson and Brandon McCarthy have to pitch it is not good news. Our main problem is that Cliff Pollite has been unable to replicate his stellar 2005 performance. There may be some middle relief guys available in a trade, but what we really need is a dominant set-up guy (just like a lot of other teams).

Having said that though your stats on losses by the bullpen makes me think things aren't that bad. 8 losses by the bullpen so far projects to ~24 on the season. So we're talking about 5 more losses than a bullpen that last year was about as good as it gets, and that's assuming that they do not improve. If McCarthy, Thornton, and Cotts can continue to improve/be more consistent the team should be able to make up the difference of a few blown games with their better offense this year. Thanks for making me feel better Lip! :D:

santo=dorf
06-03-2006, 02:04 PM
Frater:
3. Regarding Nelson. Talk to me when he gets as many chances to fail as some of the other guys in the bullpen.

Lip
So why were you all over Logan after the second game of the year? :?:

Nelson had not been good, at all.

Couldn't get out Frank, lost the game in Toronto because he hung his only pitch, and hung yet another pitch yesterday.

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2006, 02:50 PM
So why were you all over Logan after the second game of the year? :?:

Nelson had not been good, at all.

Couldn't get out Frank, lost the game in Toronto because he hung his only pitch, and hung yet another pitch yesterday.Nelson is looking like the 2006 version of Mike Jackson.

oeo
06-03-2006, 02:55 PM
Frater:

Regarding Thornton.

In my opinion he has two major issues.

1. He's a former first round draft pick who in, what, three or four years, hasn't done squat. That says something, especially for a first round pick.

2. He can't consistently find the plate. Examples: 5/5/ at home versus K.C. (9th inning) and earlier this week in Cleveland. If that's 'reliable' then we have different opinions of the word.

3. Regarding Nelson. Talk to me when he gets as many chances to fail as some of the other guys in the bullpen.

I guess Kenny is going to earn his salary over the next few weeks trying to figure out how to solve this mess.

Also just FYI, saw the bullpen team stats in the Sun-Times today. They are 10th in the league in ERA (4.6) and already have eight losses. (They had 19 all last season.)

Lip
No offense to you Lip, but I'm going to trust the Sox' evaluation of talent over yours. They obviously see something in Thornton, and he's shown signs of being great this year; I have no problems with him.

As for Nelson, I think they're just trying to catch lightning in a bottle. If it works out, great, if it doesn't they're going to have to look elsewhere. Have you given Thornton a shot all year? Why are you giving Nelson some leeway? Give Nelson the benefit of the doubt in his prime, but not at this point in his career...you have no idea what you're going to get from him.

santo=dorf
06-03-2006, 03:09 PM
No offense to you Lip, but I'm going to trust the Sox' evaluation of talent over yours. They obviously see something in Thornton, and he's shown signs of being great this year; I have no problems with him.

I also find it pretty hypocritical of Lip to call Thornton talentless and then point out how he was a first round pick. Seattle must be completely blind to draft a guy with NO talent in the first round.

Beautox
06-03-2006, 03:31 PM
Here's how I see all this:

1. BA NEEDS to be in CF as the everyday starter. IMO, especially with Pods in LF, CF is our most important defensive poistion outside of pitcher and catcher. We are not going to find anyone better in the field, and if we did it wouldn't make sense considering what it would cost to acquire that player. That said, BA should be hitting 9th and should not be looked at to use his power as often as he tries to. He needs to be the guy to lay down a bunt, hit a sac fly, or move a runner over by hitting to the right side of the field. We can afford a bad average and OBP in the 9 spot if he's doing his job.

2. Uribe needs to go. Sorry, but a guy like Izturis or Vizquel could play almost as well in the field and actually get the fundamentals part of the game down. Plus I'd expect a hgher batting average, especially with a move opening up a bit more playing time for Cintron. Izturis or Vizquel should come cheaply, and KW could always try to make a play at someone like Rollins or Jack Wilson by offering a big package.

3. McCarthy should be expendable. With 3 of our starters locked up and Mark and Freddy willing to be extended, Brandon should be used while we still can get something big in a deal surrounding him. He looks good one day and terrible the next. As a starter Brandon would be able to warm up longer and start each outing with no one on base. He'd also get a chance to work out of his own jams regularly and be able to get a better feel for his pitches. It serves us no good to have such a valuable trading chip in the middle of our struggling bullpen.

4. Politte should be on the trading block. He hasn't looked like he's going to get any better but after his terrific 2005 season, he could still be a part of a big deal. I think KW should take a look at moving this guy while some team may still think they can turn him around.

5. Jenks and Cotts will be fine in their roles. Thornton should do okay as a lefty specialist and Nelson should do fine as a mop up guy. With all the lefties at Charlotte just a phone call away in case of an emergency, I think KW should stay away from the leftys and go after two solid right handed relievers for the middle of the bullpen. Who that is, who knows?

1.) We need a complete CF simple as that, Mackowiak can hit, but can't field, and Brian can field with the best of them but can't even hit his own weight (215). Id Take Corey Patterson or Crawford in a heart beat. Mackowiak's lack of defense has cost the sox some games. If Anderson or any capable CF is out there last night they make that catch.

2.) Juan is coming around as of late, in his last 7 days hes batting .304, I'm sorry but Juan isn't going anywhere and he shouldn't, did you forget all those amazing plays in the WS? I'm pretty sure KW hasn't.

3.) McCarthy is not expendable, hes making league min, and is going to be with the sox for a long time. One of two things needs to happen with him, either he becomes the right handed set up man so he can get a consistant feel for his change and curve, or he takes a ride down to AAA and starts.

4.) I agree, Politte should be on the trading block.

5.) I agree Jenks and Cotts will be fine in their respective roles, outside of that game in Cleveland, Thronton had 8 scoreless appearances, and has been getting results he hasn't seen at any other point in his career, hes in phase II and will now being putting away hitters with regularity, just wait and see. The jury is still out on Nelson, if he can or can't be an effective ROOGY. Politte is horrid, and as of now should only be used in mop up.

Frater Perdurabo
06-03-2006, 03:45 PM
I also find it pretty hypocritical of Lip to call Thornton talentless and then point out how he was a first round pick. Seattle must be completely blind to draft a guy with NO talent in the first round.

You're right. Lip has completely underestimated the value of good coaching in this situation. Thornton clearly did not have good coaching in Seattle. He's getting good coaching with Cooper.

Also, in direct response to Lip, how many games does Nelson have to blow before you realize that he's not the answer, either?

SOXSINCE'70
06-03-2006, 03:48 PM
Just say no to Guardado. Old and bad

Agreed.He gave up Pablo Ozuna's first career HR on a pitch over
the plate that screamed "hit me hard,Mr.Ozuna.":cool:

Sox-o-matic
06-03-2006, 04:10 PM
1.) We need a complete CF simple as that, Mackowiak can hit, but can't field, and Brian can field with the best of them but can't even hit his own weight (215). Id Take Corey Patterson or Crawford in a heart beat. Mackowiak's lack of defense has cost the sox some games. If Anderson or any capable CF is out there last night they make that catch.

2.) Juan is coming around as of late, in his last 7 days hes batting .304, I'm sorry but Juan isn't going anywhere and he shouldn't, did you forget all those amazing plays in the WS? I'm pretty sure KW hasn't.

3.) McCarthy is not expendable, hes making league min, and is going to be with the sox for a long time. One of two things needs to happen with him, either he becomes the right handed set up man so he can get a consistant feel for his change and curve, or he takes a ride down to AAA and starts.

4.) I agree, Politte should be on the trading block.

5.) I agree Jenks and Cotts will be fine in their respective roles, outside of that game in Cleveland, Thronton had 8 scoreless appearances, and has been getting results he hasn't seen at any other point in his career, hes in phase II and will now being putting away hitters with regularity, just wait and see. The jury is still out on Nelson, if he can or can't be an effective ROOGY. Politte is horrid, and as of now should only be used in mop up.

1. A complete CF? Sure, that sounds great. Crawford sounds like a good idea because he could eventually replace Pods, but Patterson? With the way he's performing in Baltimore right now, I would think KW would have to blow them away with an offer to get him. And do we really want to give up that much just to continue a reclamation project the Orioles started?

The other possible options are Randy Winn, Juan Pierre, Dave Roberts (no thanks, BA is much much better in the field), Griffey who would cost a ton and is always a question mark, Hunter who would also cost a ton if he even could be had (why would KW trade his top prospects to the Twins?), and Mike Cameron, who IMO would be a good fit if he were willing to come back.

2. It doesn't matter that Uribe has a hit or two lately. He'll get hot and look good, and then he'l be back to normal. Personally, I'd love to see him get really hot and bump up his trade value a little bit.

The Sox can afford one weak bat at the bottom of the order, not two. It is much easier to replace Uribe right now than Anderson and still get defense. Also, no one, especially KW, has forgotten Juan's great plays in the playoffs. And no one, especially KW, has forgotten all the times he's failed to put together a decent AB or get a runner over.

3. McCarthy is of no use to us in the middle of the bullpen. He's our best trading chip and we need help. It's a no-brainer IMO.

tm1119
06-03-2006, 06:37 PM
how bout a trade to the Brewers? It makes sense for both teams. They have 2 CF's and are having serious pitching problems. They have Clark and Hart. We could easily do a McCarthy for Clark one for one. Clark is a hard working guy who can play D and has a pretty good average(.290) and gets on base a lot (.388) OPB. They also have a guy named Matt Wise who is in middle relief for them who could be expendable if we chip in a little, cause McCarthy for Clark is a little lop-sided in their favor. Chip in a 2nd teir prospect and we got ourselves a pretty good CF and a dependable middle reliever. How's this sound to everyone?

Sox-o-matic
06-03-2006, 11:47 PM
how bout a trade to the Brewers? It makes sense for both teams. They have 2 CF's and are having serious pitching problems. They have Clark and Hart. We could easily do a McCarthy for Clark one for one. Clark is a hard working guy who can play D and has a pretty good average(.290) and gets on base a lot (.388) OPB. They also have a guy named Matt Wise who is in middle relief for them who could be expendable if we chip in a little, cause McCarthy for Clark is a little lop-sided in their favor. Chip in a 2nd teir prospect and we got ourselves a pretty good CF and a dependable middle reliever. How's this sound to everyone?

McCarthy for Clark? Are you serious? We could probably get Clark for two low level minor leaguers, but he's better off not in CF. There are no options with the Brewers.

Tragg
06-04-2006, 07:44 AM
No reliever's perfect except for a few elite closers....that's why they are middle relievers.
Mesa's horrible...
The Cub relievers are decent, way overpaid; you should be able to get them for little in terms of talent. Eyre and Howry are not elite pitchers and should be had for minimal talent.

You don't trade an arm like McCarthy for utility ballplayers or aging middle relievers.....that's what losing organizations do.
Nelson doesn't deserve as many chances to fail as the rest of the bullpen; further he's cost us 2 games in 4 or 5 appearances...I doubt anyone else has a 40% cost us the game rate;

Banix12
06-04-2006, 08:52 AM
No reliever's perfect except for a few elite closers....that's why they are middle relievers.
Mesa's horrible...
The Cub relievers are decent, way overpaid; you should be able to get them for little in terms of talent. Eyre and Howry are not elite pitchers and should be had for minimal talent.

You don't trade an arm like McCarthy for utility ballplayers or aging middle relievers.....that's what losing organizations do.
Nelson doesn't deserve as many chances to fail as the rest of the bullpen; further he's cost us 2 games in 4 or 5 appearances...I doubt anyone else has a 40% cost us the game rate;

I agree with you across the board on this one. Great post.

It's shame now that the one cub reliever who is paid a reasonable salary, Williamson, is going on the Disabled List this week. Don't know how serious it is but it probably limits the available options.

To comment on the other posts about Thornton and his talent. Thornton has talent, a 97 MPH fastball is talent, what he has never been able to do, at least it seems till this season, was harness that talent into something useful.

Lip Man 1
06-04-2006, 12:22 PM
Dorf:

Because Logan, a pitcher who had never thrown above class A ball had NO business... zero, nada, none, being on the roster of the World Champion in the first place. And as someone else pointed out in spring training, he never ever dominated that league, making some folks think he was a 'fluke' in Arizona (which he was...)

Regarding Nelson it may be a moot point now, but I have always been true to my beliefs that I'll take a veteran guy who has had success in the big leagues, who knows where the mound is and doesn't crap in his pants at the first sign of trouble over a 'can't miss kid,' ANY DAY of the week and twice on Sunday.

The minor leagues are littered with the carcasses of hundreds of 'can't miss kids,' who never could.

Sorry you don't approve of that.

Hey as awful as the Sox bullpen is, as much of a black hole as it is, Thornton BETTER damn well finally start living up to his 'first round' potential....especially if Kenny can't do anything to corrrect the issues that he created in the first place over the winter.

The number of walks by the pen including Thornton's NINE are killing the Sox.

Lip

caulfield12
06-04-2006, 02:42 PM
To me, Nelson's biggest problem is that he simply doesn't have that fastball that is at least a threat anymore. Everyone is camped out waiting for that slider. I would rather have Vizcaino, maybe Mike Jackson and possibly Jose Paniagua. Wait, strike that last name, lol.

KW is in a tough position, there aren't too many teams that want to help out a defending WS Champion. Politte looks to be done and McCarthy doesn't look comfortable mechanically.

Probably the biggest injection we could give our team would be to trade Fields and some other pieces (not McCarthy) for Torii Hunter. As a longtime rival, I understand many here dislike him, but we felt the same way about AJ and Mientkiewicz as well.

I'm pretty sure Hunter is in the final year of his contract and we would probably not want to pay him $10-12 million next year (after all, Anderson's and McCarthy's spot were two of the few places we could save money)...and, obviously, get some bullpen help without parting with Sweeney or Valido.

But I think it would be enough to turn this season around and make a deep run in the playoffs.

A. Cavatica
06-04-2006, 06:04 PM
I understand many here dislike him, but we felt the same way about AJ and Mientkiewicz as well.

Did I miss something? When did it become OK to stop hating Mientkiewicz?

Banix12
06-05-2006, 12:34 AM
The number of walks by the pen including Thornton's NINE are killing the Sox.

Lip

In fairness, aren't 3 of those 9 walks intentional?

Steelrod
06-05-2006, 12:53 AM
I think our main need is center.
After yesterday's game with Anderson not backing up other outfielders twice, I no longer accept his batting. It seems that maybe his hitting is in his head now and affecting defense. Understandable but not acceptable.
We have no cooperation in the outfield. Near collisions are a daily affair! Maybe a short trip to the minors will clear his head.

Jjav829
06-05-2006, 12:59 AM
3. McCarthy is of no use to us in the middle of the bullpen. He's our best trading chip and we need help. It's a no-brainer IMO.

And thankfully only in your opinion.

Contract status after this year:
Buehrle - 1 year, that being a $9.5 million team option
Contreras - 3 years left, $9 million in 2007 and $10 million in 2008 and 2009
Garcia - 1 year left at $10 million
Vazquez - 1 year left at $12.5 million ($3 million from the Yanks)
Garland - 2 years left at $10 million in 2007 and $12 million in 2008

Our starting rotation next year if we keep all 5 will cost $48 million and three of them are only locked up for one more year. And you want to trade away McCarthy who is making the minimum and locked up for 5 more years? :?:

Sox-o-matic
06-05-2006, 02:46 AM
And thankfully only in your opinion.

Contract status after this year:
Buehrle - 1 year, that being a $9.5 million team option
Contreras - 3 years left, $9 million in 2007 and $10 million in 2008 and 2009
Garcia - 1 year left at $10 million
Vazquez - 1 year left at $12.5 million ($3 million from the Yanks)
Garland - 2 years left at $10 million in 2007 and $12 million in 2008

Our starting rotation next year if we keep all 5 will cost $48 million and three of them are only locked up for one more year. And you want to trade away McCarthy who is making the minimum and locked up for 5 more years? :?:

Do you really feel comfortable taking this team to playoffs right now?

Another World Championship makes that pitching staff more affordable. Plus, I'd rather see the Sox repeat now than try to win another one a few years down the road. If McCarthy can bring us a piece or two that can make the whole ballclub a lot stronger I think you have to do it.

IlliniSox4Life
06-05-2006, 03:17 AM
Do you really feel comfortable taking this team to playoffs right now?

Another World Championship makes that pitching staff more affordable. Plus, I'd rather see the Sox repeat now than try to win another one a few years down the road. If McCarthy can bring us a piece or two that can make the whole ballclub a lot stronger I think you have to do it.

About 6-10 games before the end of last season, did you feel comfortable taking that team into the playoffs?

This team is a very good to great team. They are playing like **** now, but they are not ****. There's no sense having a knee jerk reaction over a two week bad stretch and trading away our future. Our starters will improve, and when they do, the bullpen won't be as big of a deal. They will still matter, but when you only need 2 innings out of them and not 3-4, it changes a lot. Furthermore, McCarthy should improve in the pen, as will Cotts a bit. Thornton has been solid and it looks like with more time with Coop he can get even better. Jenks has been dominant.

If there is a trade out there that improves out team, then pull the trigger, but unless we are getting a young cheap talented guy to replace him, McCarthy should not be a piece to trade. Just think if we would have traded Buehrle in 2000 to try to make a stronger playoff push then.

kwolf68
06-05-2006, 07:20 AM
trade mcCarthy. For what?

Our weakness right now is bullpen help and outside of a closer (which we dont need) McCarthy is TOO HIGH a price to pay for some setup guy.

And while I underdtand Uribe and Anderson are the weak links right now...for much of last season Uribe and Crede were weak links (at least hitting) and they both got it going.

Just relax and let the players who won the World Title defend that title.

russ99
06-05-2006, 08:08 AM
Any chance the Sox can pry Willy Tavares away from the Astros? They're really struggling right now, just like the Sox, and he'd let Anderson go down to AAA for awhile and regain some confidence.

I know Houston wanted a decent return for him, but maybe toss them some minor leaguers - a decent prospect and one of the (now high trade value) relievers from Charlotte?

The deal could even be expanded to swap struggling relievers, maybe something like Politte for Wheeler.

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 09:33 AM
About 6-10 games before the end of last season, did you feel comfortable taking that team into the playoffs?

This team is a very good to great team. They are playing like **** now, but they are not ****. There's no sense having a knee jerk reaction over a two week bad stretch and trading away our future. Our starters will improve, and when they do, the bullpen won't be as big of a deal. They will still matter, but when you only need 2 innings out of them and not 3-4, it changes a lot. Furthermore, McCarthy should improve in the pen, as will Cotts a bit. Thornton has been solid and it looks like with more time with Coop he can get even better. Jenks has been dominant.

If there is a trade out there that improves out team, then pull the trigger, but unless we are getting a young cheap talented guy to replace him, McCarthy should not be a piece to trade. Just think if we would have traded Buehrle in 2000 to try to make a stronger playoff push then.I'm sick of this "Who cares about next year - they need to win NOW" crap. That's all I heard last year, so why are the same people saying it again THIS year?

Flight #24
06-05-2006, 09:38 AM
Just for kicks, here's the baserunners allowed by "crapping the bed" Matt Thornton over his past 18 outings:
1, 3, 1, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 2, 2, 1, 0, 1, 3, 7, 1

Over the same span, BB allowed:

0, 1, 0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 4, 0

Basically, he's not walking guys all that frequently, and outside of a meltdown in his 2d outing of the year, has allowed all of 19 baserunners in 15.1IP. These are not excellent numbers, but they're solid - which is what you want. It's also better than his history, which would be indicative of improvement - which is also what you want from a guy acquired in his situation.

And as noted, that doesn't include the fact that 3 of those baserunners were IBBs.

Don't be fooled by averages, especially when it's still relatively early in the season.

White Sox Randy
06-05-2006, 10:48 AM
What we DON'T need is KW taking more CHEAP chances. We've had that going on since spring training.

I've been unhappy with our bullpen decisions since we let Tom Gordon go because he wanted to make a little money and have a chance at closing.

Pay a major league reliever that can get hitters out everyday and quit ****ing around !

santo=dorf
06-05-2006, 05:21 PM
What we DON'T need is KW taking more CHEAP chances. We've had that going on since spring training.

I've been unhappy with our bullpen decisions since we let Tom Gordon go because he wanted to make a little money and have a chance at closing.

Pay a major league reliever that can get hitters out everyday and quit ****ing around !
Hey Randy,
The Yankees overpaying for Tom Gordon netted us two draft picks. One of which was Gio Gonzalez, who netted us Jim Thome.

:whiner:

SoxPostSeason
06-05-2006, 10:22 PM
what bout Ramon Ramirez from colorado?? hes young n pitchign great

Jjav829
06-05-2006, 10:27 PM
what bout Ramon Ramirez from colorado?? hes young n pitchign great

Young, cheap and pitching great. And the Rockies would trade him why?

IlliniSox4Life
06-06-2006, 03:06 AM
I'm sick of this "Who cares about next year - they need to win NOW" crap. That's all I heard last year, so why are the same people saying it again THIS year?

Exactly. I mean, sure, it would be great to win this year. And trading McCarthy for someone might give us a slightly better chance of winning this year. But what I really want, and what Kenny can accomplish, is to have a contender for years to come. I want to win the division or get the wild card and have a shot at the title for the next 15 years. I don't want a slightly better shot at a world series this year at the expense of trading away all our good talent and in 2 years having to rebuild because we have to many aging players with high salaries that aren't earning it. If the move makes sense, make it, but what we would get for McCarthy will not be worth what we are trading away. IMO, besides the guys with no trade clauses, McCarthy is probably damn close to the top of the list of guys we cant afford to trade.

Believe it or not people, the best way to win the most World Series is to be in the playoffs a lot. Rarely is there a team so dominating that they have an extremely high probability of winning it all.This team has as good a shot as any other team right now, if not better, but trading McCarthy for a CF or another reliever isn't going to suddenly make our chances jump from 15% to 75%. Maybe 15% to 18%. They might make our 2008-2011 chances drop from 10% to 3% though.

KRS1
06-06-2006, 04:35 AM
Back to the thread topic, how bout the Cards? They could use a bat, not only because of Alberts injury, but their LF is the least productive in baseball. Maybe we can pry away Reyes or Wainwright from them for a few bats.

Grzegorz
06-06-2006, 05:04 AM
Back to the thread topic, how bout the Cards? They could use a bat, not only because of Alberts injury, but their LF is the least productive in baseball. Maybe we can pry away Reyes or Wainwright from them for a few bats.

Who do we trade? Remember it's a sellers market; every team knows our predicament. What ever the cost to the organization rest assured it will be steep.

White Sox Randy
06-06-2006, 09:53 AM
Hey Randy,
The Yankees overpaying for Tom Gordon netted us two draft picks. One of which was Gio Gonzalez, who netted us Jim Thome.

:whiner:

So, you think that we couldn't have acquired Thome if we didn't have Gio to send Philly ? Interesting.

Vernam
06-06-2006, 10:21 AM
For some reason, Lip's thread title reminded me of the famous Peterson-Kekich trade of 1973: linky (http://tinyurl.com/5bttd).

:redneck

Back to Sox reality . . . Anyone who thinks our pitching is dire should note what Jason Grilli did for the Tigers on Sunday. We could use some help, but that guy was starting for us just a couple of years ago.

Vernam

russ99
06-06-2006, 10:44 AM
For some reason, Lip's thread title reminded me of the famous Peterson-Kekich trade of 1973: linky (http://tinyurl.com/5bttd).

:redneck


OK, that story's just a little too weird. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
06-06-2006, 12:41 PM
Vernam:

:D:

Lip